[00:43] <snez> hi, do you guys know of any device that I can buy that comes with ubuntu mid pre-installed?
[00:45] <sn9> probably not, but you can install on the samsung thing
[06:15] <oviri> hi
[07:34] <The_Warlock> is it possible to install ubuntu on my nokia n series?
[09:54] <abhi_> what is difference between maemo and ubuntu-mobile
[09:55] <abhi_> also moblin
[09:57] <persia> abhi_: Depends on the viewpoint.  They are all separate projects, but share some code.
[09:58] <abhi_> persia, : does moblin project use ubuntu-mobile as its base?
[09:59] <persia> As I understand it, maemo is the environment designed for installation on Nokia tablets, moblin is a reference implementation for lpia^based devices, and ubuntu-mobile is the flavour of ubuntu desgined for small tablets and devices.
[09:59] <persia> abhi_: The specific relationship has been confusing to me for some time: I believe both moblin and ubuntu-mobile have shared code, and which is based on the other seems to depend on which press release you read.
[10:01] <abhi_> persia, : you are correct. it is very confusing. i read at maemo.org that maemo is a s/w stack over which applications are build just like google android.
[10:01] <persia> That is also true.
[10:01] <persia> Basically, there's a lot of software out there.
[10:02] <persia> Most of this is free software
[10:02] <abhi_> yah
[10:02] <persia> Different groups tend to pull different software together into a base stack to build a working environment.
[10:02] <persia> Often those groups will collaborate, so improvements in one place often also go to other places.
[10:03] <persia> I know that Ubuntu Mobile pulls some stuff from maemo, and some from moblin, and some from the rest of Ubuntu, and generates some images.
[10:03] <persia> Where stuff is pulled, there are often patches sent back.
[10:04] <persia> I suspect both maemo and moblin occasionally pull from each other, and possibly from ubuntu-mobile.
[10:04] <abhi_>  i think this will lead to again fragmentation in mobile linux
[10:04] <persia> I think there is less fragmentation than there once was: in the beginning people didn't share as much.  As we share more, we get closer.
[10:05] <persia> I would like to see something like we have with Desktop: lots of distributions that are basically just themes and package selection and timing, over essentially the same base code.
[10:05] <abhi_> few days back ago when i checked the moblin site it has a reference to ubuntu-mobile but today i d't find any reference to ubuntu-linux. that's why i got confused
[10:07] <abhi_> persia: if an applications is written for gtk+ will it run in ubuntu-mobile/moblib/maemo
[10:09] <persia> Probably.  I haven't tried maemo or moblin: my mobile linux experience is limited to QTopia and ubuntu-mobile.
[10:10] <abhi_> ok
[10:10] <persia> At least for ubuntu-mobile, most things work, but if the code isn't adjusted for libhildon, the menus don't look right.
[10:10] <abhi_> i think hildon is the ui manager.
[10:10] <abhi_> which internally uses gtk+
[10:12] <persia> Right, but hildon applications don't have a parent window (they get that from the hildon desktop), and the way in which menus are displayed is different.
[10:24] <abhi_> persia: umeguide.net says ubuntu-mobile uses hildon but ubuntu.com say, User interface in HTML, Flash, Clutter, Python with GTK, C/C++ with GTK and Java. what is that
[10:25] <persia> What?  Where on ubuntu.com?
[10:26] <abhi_> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/mobile
[10:27] <abhi_> did you see it
[10:28] <persia> Now I have.  I'm a little confused, because that doesn't match my device (which *is* running hildon).  Perhaps it is also true.
[10:29] <abhi_> man it is so confusing. guy from ubuntu help us
[10:31]  * persia is an Ubuntu developer :)
[10:32] <abhi_> persia: r u ubuntu developer?
[10:32] <persia> Anyway, I do know that some people have done interesting things with clutter and flash based on Ubuntu Mobile, which is why I say "perhaps it is also true".
[10:34] <abhi_> persia: cutter and flash run within hildon or they have their own framework
[10:35] <persia> See, "framework" is one of those words I don't like.  It somehow implies some complex set of relationships that may not apply to any given piece of software.
[10:36] <persia> Anything launched from within hildon-desktop runs under hildon-desktop supervision (even if the app itself is not hildonised).  That said, I think people run flash within hildon and run clutter instead of hildon desktop (but perhaps with hildonised apps), but I'm not sure.
[10:37] <abhi_> ok, i think so
[10:40] <abhi_> i found that these three projects uses hildon ui manager with their own customized kernel and applications. 
[10:41] <persia> That matches my understanding.
[10:42] <abhi_> i think this will have less fragmentation unlike gnome and kde
[10:43] <persia> Right.  It's different groups experimenting with different defaults, application mixes, etc. from a common base.
[10:44] <persia> As I said before, there's a lot of sharing going on.  I know there are moblin and maemo developers who spend time here, and that there are ubuntu-mobile developers who spend time in moblin and maemo communications channels.
[10:46] <abhi_> this is good for mid developers that their applications can be ported to different devices.
[10:52] <abhi_> thanks persia
[14:22] <otta> hoij anybody there?
[14:32] <otta> whats that chan all about?
[14:35] <otta> may be nothin
[17:21] <shishirm1> hi guys
[17:21] <persia> shishirm1: Hey.
[17:21] <shishirm1> i am trying to run hildon desktop
[17:21] <shishirm1> on my tablet 
[17:21] <shishirm1> khojinsha sh series
[17:22] <shishirm1> i have ubuntu 8.04 installed
[17:22] <shishirm1> kindly tell me how to replace gnome and get hildon-desktop instead
[17:23] <shishirm1> ﻿persia: hi can u tell me??
[17:23] <sn9> is the gnome a fresh install?
[17:24] <sn9> shishirm1: ?
[17:24] <shishirm1> yep it is
[17:25] <sn9> reinstall
[17:25] <shishirm1> i have installed ubuntu 8.04 not the UMe
[17:25] <sn9> use either the alternate or server installers
[17:25] <shishirm1> i mean mobile edition'
[17:25] <sn9> not the desktop
[17:25] <persia> shishirm1: I've the SR series.  You need to install the McCaslin image from the URL in the /topic
[17:26] <shishirm1> i have already installed the desktop and just wanna convert the gnome to hildon
[17:26] <sn9> or you could do that
[17:26] <sn9> to convert, you would need to uninstall all packages
[17:26] <shishirm1> i dont wanna install a fresh bcoz i just wanna try the hildon UI first
[17:26] <shishirm1> of wat?
[17:26] <shishirm1> of gnome?
[17:26] <persia> You don't want to do that.  For Hardy, proper hildonisation is only available for the lpia architecture, and the desktop is only available for the i386 architecture (for things that can be installed on the Kohjinsha SH series).
[17:27] <persia> You really want the lpia arch, and for that, you want the McCaslin image from Ubuntu MID.
[17:27] <sn9> if you want to try, use a virtual machine
[17:27] <persia> You can install any other software you want on it later
[17:27] <persia> (and no, don't try the virtual machine on the Kohjinsha: you need to hand-compile kqemu-source, and even then it's not fast enough)
[17:28] <shishirm1> ﻿persia: so there is no way i can try hildon without cleaning my disk as the usb install suggests??
[17:29] <sn9> persia: if one installs only ubuntu-minimal with d-i, what's wrong with "sudo apt-get --install-recommends install ubuntu-mobile" ?
[17:29] <persia> shishirm1: You can install the hildon-desktop package, etc., but you won't get as many hildon-enabled applications on i386, so you won't see the full effect.
[17:29] <shishirm1> thats fine but is there a way to atleast have alook??
[17:30] <persia> sn9: Well, firstly there was a bit of a mess with the Hardy release, so some 60 packages got special patches in a PPA and aren't available from the regular repos (this will be fixed for intrepid)
[17:30] <shishirm1> i just wanna feel how good it is
[17:30] <shishirm1> i am running a vista and ubuntu dual boot
[17:30] <persia> Also, there's some stuff that's only hildonised on lpia, but not for i386.  The d-i for lpia just got uploaded Friday, so one can't install hardy ubuntu-minimal on lpia with an alternate CD.
[17:30] <sn9> persia: ppa's are built for 3 arch'es
[17:31] <persia> sn9: Yes, but debian/rules has things like if DEB_BUILD_ARCH == lpia to enable hildon.
[17:31] <shishirm1> i just wanna have a sneak peak into hildon with screwin up anythinig
[17:31] <sn9> ah
[17:31] <persia> sn9: Yes, that's not the right way to do it, but...
[17:31] <shishirm1> i mean without
[17:32] <shishirm1> can u guys please tell me how to do it??
[17:32] <persia> shishirm1: Do you have other hardware available?  You might be able to run a virtual environment there.
[17:33] <shishirm1> i do have a desktop
[17:33] <sn9> persia: where is the lpia d-i?
[17:33] <shishirm1> but i have a very slow internet and it takes a lot of time to get stuff downloaded i mean the vm package
[17:34] <sn9> shishirm1: the vm image took me half an hour to d/l over 3Mb/s
[17:34] <shishirm1> i have a 256kb/s
[17:34] <persia> shishirm1: Hmm.  The VM package is probably best.  Alternately, if the install on the SH is really new, you might just reinstall the desktop later if you don't like the MID release.
[17:34] <persia> Yeah, that's painful :(
[17:35] <persia> sn9: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+source/debian-installer/20080522ubuntu9
[17:35] <sn9> intrepid only?
[17:35] <persia> sn9: Yep.
[17:35] <persia> Also, looks like it's not actually built for lpia yet, although the code permits it.
[17:36] <shishirm1> ya see doesnt it work the way it works for other desktop environments?
[17:36] <persia> shishirm1: RIght now, no, not at all.  Maybe for intrepid.
[17:36] <shishirm1> i mean if i have a kde and gnome on ubuntu then b4 i login it gives me a choice to choose what desktop environment i wanr
[17:36] <shishirm1> want
[17:37] <shishirm1> doesnt it work that way??
[17:37] <sn9> persia: is it possible to use image creator to install to real hardware?
[17:37] <persia> shishirm1: No, it doesn't work that way today.
[17:38] <persia> sn9: Which image creator?  Moblin Image Creator?
[17:38] <sn9> the one for ume, yeah
[17:38] <shishirm1> oh god then i have to remove gnome get hildon try hildon then remove hildon??
[17:39] <persia> shishirm1: No, you have to actually completely reinstall.  For a Hildon desktop, you want to run the lpia architecture.  For a GNOME desktop you want to run the i386 architecture.
[17:40] <persia> sn9: As long as you don't mean the one for the virtual image builds, one can use it to create an image that one can copy to a USB stick and install on actual hardware.
[17:40] <shishirm1> ok got it
[17:40] <sn9> persia: what's the diff?
[17:40] <persia> Personally, I find that this takes a painfully long time, and so I prefer to use the pre-built images.
[17:41] <persia> sn9: MIC is a python tool that wraps a number of nested chroot structures, and does some installer stuff.  Even if you're on hardy, you'll want the intrepid one, because the hardy one can't upgrade kernels post-install without manual intervention.
[17:41] <sn9> what kind of manual intervention?
[17:43] <persia> virtual-mobile-builder is based on ubuntu-vm-builder, and just adds some customisation and packages.
[17:44] <persia> Basically, it installs a menu.lst with an md5sum that doesn't match the ucf md5sum for menu.lst.  You can get a version for hardy fromhttp://archive.mobile.ubuntu.com/pool/um-ppa-hardy/main/m/moblin-image-creator/ 
[17:44] <persia> (without the bug)
[17:45] <sn9> so, virt-mob-build > mic?
[17:46] <persia> Well, no.
[17:46] <sn9> for real hardware
[17:47] <persia> MIC does poorly at creating images for use in qemu or kvm.  virtual-mobile-builder doesn't create an image that can be installed on hardware.
[17:47] <sn9> define "can be installed"
[17:49] <persia> sn9: Well, you can't dd a qcow2 file to a disk.  Further, if you could, you'd need to then move the disk to the target device (as there isn't any installer wrapper: it's just there).
[17:49] <sn9> it's qcow only? no raw?
[17:50] <persia> Fruther, it doesn't construct a squashfs and unionfs, so it requires more physical disk space than an install from MIC or the available images.
[17:50] <persia> Lastly, I'm not sure that the driver selection used for the virtual environment matches any hardware, so it may not boot after having been manually put on the target device.
[17:50] <persia> So, I guess you could install it on real hardware, but it would be a very painful experience.
[17:52] <sn9> ok, so what are mic's deficiencies wrt vm's?
[17:54] <sn9> persia: ?
[17:55] <persia> Erm.  It requires about 3 times as long to build anything, it does many strange things with chroots that involve interesting mounting behaviours (some things are never unmounted, and some things get unmounted unexpectedly), it does several interesting things to configuration files, it is a GUI application that must run as root (with python-gtk), I'll stop there.
[17:55] <persia> Oh, and the resulting images don't boot in KVM or qemu.
[17:56] <sn9> don't boot because...?
[17:59] <persia> I forget why, but they didn't, so someone wrote virtual-mobile-builder.
[18:00] <sn9> how long does the average image take in mic vs. vmb?
[18:01] <sn9> persia: this is the last question, i promise. ^^^
[18:03] <persia> sn9: Depends on your bandwidth and local processor speed.  30 minutes to a day I'd day (for more than a day, you need to upgrade if you're creating your own images).
[18:03] <persia> Again, I find it easier to use the provided images, unless you need to customise something pre-install.
[18:04] <sn9> so, vmb = 30 min, mic = a day. gotcha; thanx
[18:05] <persia> Well, no.  I've built MIC images in only a couple hours, and had virtual-mobile-builder images not complete within my patience for a lower amount of bandwidth and processor (I was trying on the SR over WiFi at a conference).
[18:06] <sn9> so, vice-versa?
[18:07] <persia> In general, MIC will take two or three times as long as virtual-mobile-builder, but both are highly dependent on the local processor and bandwidth available.
[18:07] <persia> Note that one doesn't use MIC and virtual-mobile-builder for the same target, so the tool selection is based on where you plan to use it, rather than on which tool you like.
[18:08] <sn9> i'm toying with the idea of making an image for a p2-core celeron
[18:09] <sn9> 500MHz or so
[18:09] <sn9> to be installed by netboot
[18:09] <sn9> (pxe)
[18:12] <persia> Yeah, that might need a special image.  I'd recommend trying the McCaslin image first, just because it's already compressed (so less to download), and doesn't need building.
[18:13] <sn9> install image, or tarball?
[18:13] <persia> I'd start with the install image.
[18:14] <persia> The tarball might shorten the MIC time, although importing it might be tricky if you're not familiar with MIC.
[18:16] <sn9> thanx
[20:54] <pratz> can someone help me with a very silly newbie doubt?