[14:56] <newz2000> emunkki: hi, sorry I didn't reply yesterday, my wife and son were both sick, if you still need me, I'm here
[15:55] <vbabiy> hey newz2000 where is the bzr website source located
[16:08] <newz2000> vbabiy: which website's source?
[16:08] <vbabiy> newz2000: http://bazaar-vcs.org/
[16:08] <newz2000> hmmm... do you want the source image of the wiki theme?
[16:09] <vbabiy> no I was wondering if I where I could commit a branch to fix the css
[16:09] <newz2000> it's not in a branch that I am aware of
[16:09] <vbabiy> o
[16:09] <newz2000> I'm sure it is but maintenance is now done by someone other than me
[16:09] <newz2000> you should probably ask in #bzr
[16:09] <newz2000> what did you fix?
[16:13] <vbabiy> the Title text indent drives me crazy its enough on wide screens
[16:37] <vbabiy_> newz2000: Did you say anything else, my internet is dead here
[16:37] <newz2000> vbabiy_: no
[16:37] <newz2000> I'm having inet probs too
[16:37] <vbabiy_> it sucks here
[22:47] <emunkki> newz2000, ping again; i was just asking about the feature tour progress/whether people have interest in helping?
[22:47] <newz2000> emunkki: hey
[22:47] <newz2000> ok, so the question is, who is the leader
[22:47] <newz2000> emunkki: would you like to do it?
[22:47] <newz2000> (I'd help you of course)
[22:48] <newz2000> if not, I have an email composed to the list to ask for one
[22:49] <newz2000> I could do it too I guess, though I can do very little of the work
[22:49] <emunkki> i'd like to help with it, but can't do really a lot - i'm having a busy week (though i shouldn't have had) and my studies start next week, as i said
[22:49] <newz2000> ok, I will ask for a leader and give 5 days, if not, then I will lead it
[22:49] <newz2000> emunkki: how would you like to help?
[22:50] <emunkki> i can help with the graphics/css
[22:50] <newz2000> ok, then maybe I should not wait 5 days
[22:50] <emunkki> but i can also help with xhtml/php/... if it's *really* needed
[22:51] <newz2000> we probably won't use any php
[22:51] <emunkki> yeah, anyway
[22:52] <newz2000> emunkki: here's my adaption of your design for an email newsletter: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mnuzum/projects/EmailNewsletter/email.html
[22:52] <newz2000> though I need to add a right hand column in there somehow
[22:53] <emunkki> hmm ok
[22:53] <emunkki> i can see if i come up with something
[22:55] <newz2000> emunkki: I'm afraid of being too pushy so I'm being a bit more passive than I normally would be...
[22:55] <emunkki> naah.. just ask me
[22:55] <emunkki> i will do what i have time for
[22:55] <newz2000> if you want to help with the graphic design I'd love to discuss it with you, I'm available now if you like, or if you just want to go to town with it that's cool too
[22:56] <emunkki> i think there's no reason to be part of oss community, if nobody can ask for your help ;)
[22:56] <emunkki> sure, i'm having a free night
[22:56] <emunkki> i was in sauna earlier so i might be a little slow though ;)
[22:56] <newz2000> :-)
[22:57] <newz2000> from a graphic designer point of view I've often had the best luck with fixed-width designs because its easy to create graphics for them that work in reliable ways. Do you have an opinion on the matter?
[22:58] <emunkki> fixed-width design are the "easy way"
[22:58] <emunkki> and sometimes it's understandable
[22:59] <emunkki> if you eg. want ABSOLUTELY the same behaviour, look & feel for every visitor
[23:00] <emunkki> i have a few books on non-fixed-width css design, and i can say that the layouts are already very close in reliability
[23:01] <newz2000> so which do you like to dsign for?
[23:01] <emunkki> well, i'm always heading for liquid layout
[23:02] <emunkki> mostly because of really varying resolutions
[23:02] <emunkki> and i also bumped into a great script
[23:02] <emunkki> ajax, which can change the stylesheet on the fly if the browser window size > OR < than value x
[23:02] <emunkki> and it seems to work perfectly
[23:02] <emunkki> and is light
[23:02] <newz2000> oh, that sounds slick
[23:03] <emunkki> yes
[23:03] <emunkki> i'll paste you the url, just a moment
[23:04] <emunkki> http://www.themaninblue.com/writing/perspective/2006/01/19/
[23:04] <emunkki> i think that is a REALLY powerful tool when used appropriately
[23:04] <emunkki> and both the css styles are made with care and love
[23:04] <emunkki> that the other doesn't look like b-class version of the other
[23:04] <newz2000> ah, resolution dependent layout... that's just what I was looking for recently
[23:04] <emunkki> yes
[23:05] <emunkki> we're using it at http://fcviikingit.fi/
[23:05] <emunkki> (yes i know the site looks bad but it's the clients wish)
[23:05] <newz2000> I know how clients are
[23:06] <emunkki> i suggest you dan cederholms 'bulletproof web design' on the liquid layouts problem/solutions, if you haven't read that yet
[23:06] <emunkki> it's a wonderful book, as is his first
[23:07] <emunkki> they're even way better than the eric meyer ones o.O
[23:07] <newz2000> I'll investigate it, I've not seen it
[23:07] <newz2000> so are you starting to visualize something for the feature tour?
[23:07] <emunkki> http://simplebits.com/publications/bulletproof/
[23:07] <emunkki> well i think we should gather the whole team together
[23:08] <newz2000> Are you saying that because you don't like the "filmstrip" idea?
[23:08] <emunkki> no, definately not
[23:08] <emunkki> but i'd like to see the ajax/js guys and talk with them
[23:08] <emunkki> agree on who does what etc.
[23:09] <newz2000> ok. So I have a little problem with design by committee
[23:09] <emunkki> ok...? :)
[23:09] <newz2000> If you want to design it, this is what I suggest
[23:09] <newz2000> Create a mockup that does a good job of conveying what you're picture in your mind
[23:10] <newz2000> then we bring this idea to the group
[23:10] <newz2000> (and we can do more than one idea in case another designer wants a hand at it)
[23:10] <newz2000> but I'm a little concerned with too many people putting tons of time into a design just to have it trashed
[23:11] <emunkki> yeah ok
[23:11] <newz2000> so I'd kind of prefer to have one strong designer take a lead in creating a look, and I don't care who that designer is, as long as their good, and you are.
[23:11] <newz2000> hey, speaking of good designers... here's BinaryDigits
[23:11] <newz2000> emunkki: you may have some competition
[23:11] <emunkki> hello BinaryDigits
[23:11] <emunkki> sure
[23:11] <emunkki> ;)
[23:11] <BinaryDigits> oh hello!
[23:12] <BinaryDigits> how is everyone?
[23:12] <newz2000> great, how are you today?
[23:12] <BinaryDigits> not bad thanks
[23:12] <emunkki> anyway i was used to be a *very* HC css geek, but as time has passed by, i've become also more like an artist
[23:13] <newz2000> BinaryDigits: we're talking about the feature tour, which if I remember correctly, you expressed some interest in too, am I right in that?
[23:13] <emunkki> (the css geekiness shows in my book shelf, where 6/8 of the books i use for work are css only books ;))
[23:14] <newz2000> that's pretty geeky
[23:14] <emunkki> yes
[23:14] <newz2000> I've got several books on the http protocol, so I may have you beat a little
[23:14] <emunkki> and i might want one more ;(
[23:14] <BinaryDigits> yep, although i did a mock up of the start page, not feature tour, but would love to give input on that as well :)
[23:14] <newz2000> oh, start page
[23:14] <newz2000> sorry, got a big confused
[23:14] <emunkki> BinaryDigits, can i see the mockup?
[23:15] <newz2000> emunkki: I think she put it here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/IntrepidStartPage
[23:15] <newz2000> first one
[23:15] <BinaryDigits> sure, it's on the wiki
[23:15] <BinaryDigits> ya
[23:15] <newz2000> BinaryDigits: so regarding the start page, it's been shelved temporarily because of legal discussions
[23:15] <emunkki> ah, that's a really early mockup
[23:16] <BinaryDigits> oh ok... what legal discussions? or are we not able to ask? hehe
[23:16] <newz2000> I full expect it to be shelved until about 8 days before release at which point it will become so burningly urgent that it consumes all of my/our time until its done
[23:16] <emunkki> BinaryDigits, no, CIA will pick you up soonish
[23:16] <newz2000> BinaryDigits: mozilla, google and canonical hammering out minutia
[23:16] <emunkki> newz2000, well basically here's a story:
[23:17] <BinaryDigits> ok
[23:17] <emunkki> kubuntu folks might want to use the start page layout i made in the website
[23:17] <emunkki> so we might put that up already soonish
[23:17] <emunkki> and then we can adapt it for ubuntu start page
[23:17] <emunkki> if you want
[23:17] <emunkki> so it wouldn't hurt us so much even if we had 8 days
[23:18] <newz2000> ok
[23:18] <emunkki> if we decide to use that design, of course
[23:18] <newz2000> of course
[23:18] <newz2000> so lets return to the feature tour
[23:18] <emunkki> sure
[23:19] <newz2000> you were discussing an alternate layout/fluid design concept
[23:19] <newz2000> I'm curious what you had in mind
[23:20] <emunkki> yes, i think that without really heavy arguments for fixed-width, it shouldn't be used
[23:20] <newz2000> ok, so you're opposed to fixed width
[23:20] <newz2000> I'm fine with that though I don't feel so strongly on the matter. :-)
[23:20] <emunkki> no, that's not the correct word
[23:20] <newz2000> oh
[23:21] <emunkki> let me think of a more appropriate one...
[23:21] <emunkki> can't think of one :/
[23:21] <emunkki> but anyway, just needs a strong argument
[23:22] <newz2000> gotcha
[23:22] <newz2000> here are my thoughts... we have a limited amount of information to display and it is very visual
[23:22] <emunkki> if you don't have a reason to use fixed-width, don't use it
[23:22] <newz2000> the benefit of a fixed width layout is that it will be consistent in its apperance...
[23:22] <newz2000> the benefit of the fluid layout is that those who have a wider screen can see bigger pictures
[23:23] <emunkki> definately
[23:23] <newz2000> here's what I dislike about other feature tours
[23:23] <emunkki> the question is, would the images be scalable?
[23:23] <newz2000> good question
[23:23] <newz2000> I've seen some ajax scripts that do image scaling
[23:23] <newz2000> but I think the source images need to be photographic to get good results
[23:23] <newz2000> and we don't have those kinds of images
[23:23] <emunkki> yes
[23:24] <BinaryDigits> argh, i need to leave, hope to run into you guys again tomorrow!
[23:24] <newz2000> ok, ttyl
[23:24] <newz2000> what I dislike:
[23:24] <emunkki> BinaryDigits, see you later
[23:24] <newz2000> boring images... for example, full desktop screenshots time after time where only a menu or a small window changes
[23:24] <newz2000> full page refreshes for just new images
[23:25] <newz2000> non-existient deescriptions of the images... I like it when the images are described
[23:25] <emunkki> yeah..
[23:25] <newz2000> seemingly endless images (a progress meter or some other status would be nice)
[23:25] <newz2000> boring boring boring appearance (this is not critical, but WOW is good)
[23:25]  * newz2000 is done
[23:26] <emunkki> yeah
[23:26] <emunkki> i agree
[23:27] <newz2000> so you see, as a designer you have a lot of room for creativity
[23:27] <emunkki> yeah
[23:27] <emunkki> hmm
[23:27] <emunkki> still i wonder whether the filmstrip will work with partial-screen shots
[23:28] <newz2000> We don't have to do a film strip...
[23:28] <emunkki> i like that idea
[23:28] <newz2000> ok
[23:28] <emunkki> i really don't want to let you think that i didn't like the idea
[23:28] <emunkki> i'm just wondering how it will work in action
[23:28] <newz2000> well, let me say this...
[23:29] <newz2000> I wasn't actually pushing for a real film strip, I was just trying to describe how the images would be lined up side by side with small gaps
[23:29] <newz2000> I think that if properly done the filmstrip could look beautiful, though it could also be cheesy
[23:30] <newz2000> but what I liked a lot was the smooth scrolling horizontal effect where there's a large image, no thumbnails needed...
[23:30] <newz2000> and the filmstrip analogy explained how images could be side by side without needing to look continuous
[23:34] <emunkki> aha ;)
[23:34] <emunkki> sure..
[23:34] <emunkki> hmm
[23:45] <newz2000> emunkki: do you want to work on a graphical mockup then?
[23:45] <emunkki> yeah
[23:45] <newz2000> ok
[23:45] <emunkki> i think i can come up with maybe a few alternatives
[23:45] <emunkki> just have to let the ideas grow on my head :)
[23:45] <newz2000> go for it
[23:46] <newz2000> I'm going to split for the day, I've got a sick family so better go take care of them
[23:46] <emunkki> yeah
[23:46] <emunkki> see you later
[23:46] <newz2000> ;-)
[23:46] <emunkki> i'll pm you when i have something ready