[00:07] <asac> wgrant: historic reasons
[00:11] <asac> RAOF: where are those headers includedd?
[00:12] <asac> i dont see anything that looks like a header include with nm-device :)
[00:17] <RAOF> asac: In main-menu/src/network-status-agent.c
[00:18] <asac> RAOF: thats just NetworkManager.h
[00:19] <asac> which is shipped in network-manager-dev
[00:25] <RAOF> asac: It already includes that.  At least, I think it does... :)
[00:27] <RAOF> Anyway, I'll have a better look later; it doesn't appear that it'll be trivial at this point.
[00:59] <zul> pitti: yeah I know about it, Im trying to find a fix for it having no luck
[01:27] <rexbron> Hey, when is the new upstart slated to hit ubuntu? Will it make it into intrepid?
[01:28] <nxvl> upstart?
[01:29] <rexbron> upstart.ubuntu.com
[01:31] <foxxtrot> Question about packaging for python.  The package has a Python Module, and a script which acts as a program which interfaces with the module.  Should this be split into two packages?
[01:32] <rexbron> perhaps my question is best directed at Keybuk :)
[01:33] <rexbron> foxxtrot: Would another application be able to make use of that module?
[01:33] <foxxtrot> Yes it was designed to be developed against, however it is a pretty special purpose scientific package, so I'm unsure if anyone would want the Python module but not the application
[01:34] <rexbron> foxxtrot: Consider splitting the module out into its own binary package
[01:36] <foxxtrot> That's what I was thinking, felt it was worth checking.  Unfortunately, the package doesn't have a true Makefile, so I'm going to have to see if the setup.py can be set up to 'install' to the debian/ directory
[01:39] <rexbron> foxxtrot: --prefix=
[01:39] <rexbron> something like python setup.py install --prefix=$(CUR_DIR)/debian/tmp/
[01:40]  * rexbron cant remember off the top of his head if that is the correct varriable
[01:40] <foxxtrot> The INSTALL file seems to be indicating --home= which doesn't seem nearly as correct as --prefix= would be, but the code backs it up.
[01:40] <rexbron> and foxxtrot, #ubuntu-motu is a more appropreate place for general packaging questions :)
[01:40] <foxxtrot> Fair enough
[01:41] <foxxtrot> I'll join that channel as well then
[01:41] <persia> Does anyone happen to know why sl-modem-daemon is in restricted rather than multiverse?  I can't find any reverse package relationships that would keep it there.
[01:47] <TheMuso> persia: The source for the kernel driver afaik.
[01:47] <TheMuso> If not the source for all of it.
[01:48] <persia> TheMuso: sl-modem-source is already in multiverse.  Am I missing something?
[01:48] <TheMuso> persia: Are they not from the same source package?
[01:49] <persia> TheMuso: They are.
[01:54] <nxvl> Keybuk: ping
[01:56]  * persia files a bug on sl-modem to solicit more response.
[01:59] <Dekans> Is it normal to have X11 and gkt libs dependencies with tomcat ??
[01:59] <Dekans> on ubuntu server i don't want those useless libs
[02:00] <Dekans> I downloaded tomcat from its official website instead
[02:00] <persia> Dekans: Unfortunately.  I believe that Koon just fixed that for intrepid, but please file a bug on similar issues.
[02:00] <Dekans> I don't understand these dependencies
[02:00] <Dekans> Ah ok
[02:00] <Dekans> perfect
[02:00] <Dekans> :)
[02:00] <Dekans> understood
[02:01] <persia> You'll find that the issue is that the JRE depends on X.  Getting that which can be headless to use a headless JRE is work in progress.
[02:02] <Keybuk> nxvl: I am actually here
[02:02] <Keybuk> what's up?
[02:04] <nxvl> Keybuk: rexbron have just make me notice upstart
[02:05] <Keybuk> ?
[02:05] <nxvl> Keybuk: what the state of it, and when can be start to safetly play with it
[02:05] <Keybuk> do not use for now
[02:05] <nxvl> i'm installing it on a VM
[02:05] <nxvl> just for testing
[02:05] <persia> Keybuk: No?  Why not?
[02:06] <Keybuk> persia: because it's just about to undergo a fundamental redesign
[02:06] <Keybuk> so anything you do now won't work next month
[02:06] <persia> Oh, next month?  That's actually fairly positive news.  I thought maybe intrepid+1.
[02:07] <Keybuk> well, yeah, intrepid+1
[02:07] <Keybuk> certainly not going to land anything like that for intrepid
[02:07] <Keybuk> not until we hire a new desktop team lead anyway :p
[02:07] <Dekans> where can we suggest new apps to integrate in the repos ?
[02:08] <rexbron> Keybuk: so is 0.5 stable enough for intrepid?
[02:08] <Keybuk> no
[02:08] <rexbron> ok
[02:08] <Keybuk> well
[02:08] <Keybuk> it's stable
[02:08] <persia> Dekans: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages
[02:08] <Keybuk> but I don't really want to support it ;)
[02:08] <persia> Keybuk: Should packages that use it now migrate away from it?
[02:08] <Keybuk> no packages use it now
[02:09] <persia> Err, yes some do.
[02:09] <Keybuk> which?
[02:09] <persia> ume-config-common is an example.
[02:09] <Keybuk> does it use it in vaguely sane ways?
[02:09] <persia> /etc/event.d/session handles running startx in the absence of GDM.
[02:09] <Keybuk> sounds fair
[02:09] <Keybuk> won't be hard to convert later on
[02:10] <persia> OK.  So use is acceptable, but users should be prepared for a migration for intrepid+1?
[02:10] <Keybuk> exactly
[02:10] <persia> (and upstream isn't going to support the current version)
[02:10] <Keybuk> you'd have a migration if we shipped 0.5
[02:10] <Keybuk> so I'd rather skip that migration in Ubuntu
[02:10] <Keybuk> so 0.3 -> 1.0 will be a migration
[02:10] <nxvl> Keybuk: < Keybuk> not until we hire a new desktop team lead anyway :p ?
[02:11] <Keybuk> nxvl: then I can go back to development full-time
[02:11] <nxvl> Keybuk: as in you won't accept it, or as in you are quiting?
[02:11] <nxvl> oh
[02:11] <nxvl> ok ok
[02:11] <rexbron> Keybuk: us studio guys are looking at writing some upstart jobs and are looking for a nice clean way to manage them (chaning values then restarting the job). I saw that 0.5 has dbus support
[02:11] <Keybuk> nxvl: I'm stepping down, thus the job description on the website
[02:11] <Keybuk> rexbron: right, it does
[02:11] <Keybuk> but d-bus has lots of bugs
[02:11] <nxvl> Keybuk: i don't understand
[02:11] <Keybuk> and upstart is a great tool for finding bugs in other pieces of software
[02:11] <nxvl> Keybuk: as in it's not what you expected?
[02:11] <Keybuk> especially security bugs
[02:12] <Keybuk> nxvl: after 18 months of management, I've decided that my heart lies with development
[02:12] <nxvl> yeah
[02:12] <Keybuk> nxvl: so am stepping down as the ubuntu desktop team lead, and going to become a developer full-time again
[02:12] <rexbron> well, faling that, calling start and stop from a subprocess shell works, if not as elegantly :P
[02:12] <nxvl> after 4 months in advisory i have decided the same
[02:12] <Keybuk> nxvl: this can't happen until we hire a new team lead
[02:12] <nxvl> :D
[02:12] <nxvl> Keybuk: but still in the ubuntu-desktop team?
[02:13] <Keybuk> nxvl: I'll be moving to the ubuntu foundations team
[02:13] <Keybuk> which better fits the stuff I hack on
[02:13] <nxvl> foundations as in platform?
[02:13] <lifeless> mm concrete
[02:13] <Keybuk> right
[02:13] <nxvl> or is it a new team?
[02:13] <nxvl> ah ok
[02:13] <TheMuso> lol
[02:13] <Keybuk> lifeless: I do the plumbing, that goes under the concrete
[02:13] <Keybuk> but above the water mains
[02:13] <lifeless> Keybuk: not the girders?
[02:13] <nxvl> i feel better to know that Keybuk is not going away :D
[02:13] <Keybuk> rexbron: 0.5 was an attempt to fix the problems we had with 0.3
[02:14] <Keybuk> rexbron: instead it created lots of fascinating new problems
[02:14] <Keybuk> rexbron: and thus didn't solve anything
[02:14] <rexbron> Keybuk: I see
[04:41]  * jdong sees that he is joining Keybuk on the dark capacitative touchy side with his new shiny iPhone 3G :D
[04:42] <persia> Consider it integration and compatibility testing...
[04:43] <jdong> :)
[04:43] <RAOF> That's the sort of integration testing I can get behind. :)
[04:43] <jdong> oddly I do agree with his two cents on Linux's API fragmentation
[04:44] <jdong> in the little bit I did experiment with writing native iPod Touch apps, I found it surprisingly easy to learn
[04:44] <RAOF> I've heard Objective-C isn't evil.
[04:45] <jdong> it's not bad. Perfectly bearable
[04:45] <jdong> maybe it's just because it's different and for that sole reason satisfies the nerd inside me
[04:46] <jdong> but from the perspective of an internet-enabled smartphone, the iPhone is still one of the best things I can get here in the states
[04:46] <jdong> the after-market modding community is simply enormous too
[04:46]  * jdong wishes there's a way to buy free time to explore all this stuff
[04:47] <persia> jdong: One can purchase free time.  One saves up, and declares that one is on sabbatical for N months.  As long as one pre-arranges the end of the sabbatical, it's fairly safe.
[05:33] <calc> wow the new lenovo W700 is amazing, but huge
[05:34] <calc> http://www.engadget.com/2008/08/12/lenovo-intros-the-monstrous-thinkpad-w700-and-we-get-our-hands/
[05:34]  * calc isn't sure amazing is enough to describe it
[05:34] <StevenK> How huge?
[05:35]  * persia suspects about 30 minutes of battery life
[05:36] <cody-somerville> Can anyone shed a bit of insight onto as to why Packages.gz failed the md5sum check in the Xubuntu cd build? http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/xubuntu/intrepid/daily-live-20080811.log
[05:36] <pwnguin> calc: thats just terrible
[05:38] <StevenK> persia: While pedalling furiously?
[05:38] <persia> StevenK: And flapping one's arms vigorously.
[05:39] <pwnguin> calc: toshiba makes some nice traditional tabletPCs
[05:40] <StevenK> persia: :-D
[05:45] <StevenK> That isn't a laptop, that's a desktop that you can close.
[05:45] <RAOF> I was tempted by 17" laptops when I bought mine.
[05:46] <RAOF> I'm glad I didn't; I didn't really know how I'd be using it.  My next laptop will be smaller :)
[05:46] <Chipzz> StevenK: saw my comment yesterday about pyclutter?
[05:46]  * StevenK likes his X40
[05:47] <StevenK> Chipzz: I did, thanks. "Exercise patience, and upstream will release 0.8."
[05:47] <Chipzz> or "SVN is in a more usable state"
[05:47] <RAOF> Maybe upstream would like to release clutter-sharp sometime, too.  Grr.
[05:47] <StevenK> RAOF: My next laptop will be something about the same size of my current X40, or a little bit larger.
[05:47] <Chipzz> StevenK: you could consider shipping an svn snapshot?
[05:47] <calc> i think i will get an X200 for my next machine or whatever replaces it by then
[05:47] <persia> StevenK: The difference is that it has a battery.  While not so common now, the all-in-one models with flip-close keyboards were very common here a couple years ago, but no battery at all, so momentary loss of mains shut it off.  Consider it an integrated UPS.
[05:48] <calc> i would like better than 1280x800 though for resolution
[05:48] <StevenK> Chipzz: I could. I think pitti and and I are happy enough to leave it broken for the moment.
[05:48] <StevenK> persia: Haha, point.
[05:48] <calc> the X200 supposedly can last ~ 9hr on the 9cell battery :)
[05:49] <persia> calc: Sure, but the W700?
[05:49] <Chipzz> StevenK: I was actually trying to point out (yesterday) that it wouldn't have to NBS'ed out of main if you shipped an svn snapshot, but ok :)
[05:49] <persia> Also, I've not had best success with claims: my current laptop claims 8 hours, but I rarely get more than 5.
[05:49] <Chipzz> not using it anyway ;)
[05:50] <RAOF> StevenK: How big is the X40?
[05:50] <calc> persia: W700 is too big for me, 15" really is too big as well, which is what i currently use
[05:51] <calc> persia: oh i don't know about what the W700 claim is
[05:51]  * RAOF 's next laptop is likely to be a toss-up between a 13" thinkpad and a macbook.
[05:51] <persia> calc: Too big for weight, or too big because of your luggage?
[05:51] <StevenK> RAOF: 12.1 inch
[05:51]  * persia is exceedingly happy with the CF-Y7, although the sound needs a bit of debugging.
[05:51] <RAOF> Yeah, that's maybe _slightly_ small.  Although maybe a couple of years at 13" will make it seem more reasonably :)
[05:52] <StevenK> RAOF: The screen is a little small, but the keyboard is *lovely*
[05:53] <calc> persia: luggage
[05:53] <calc> persia: weight generally isn't an issue on the airline i fly, they don't even check carryon
[05:54] <calc> of course i would rather not lug a heavy bag either
[05:54] <persia> Ah.  I care about weight more for walking about than for planes.
[05:54] <StevenK> This is the main reason I like the X40. :-)
[05:55] <StevenK> And terms of the laptop, charger and second battery, it's ~ 2kg
[05:55] <calc> persia: i don't walk much living in Houston
[05:55] <StevenK> calc: You're married to your car?
[05:55] <calc> everything is too spread out, urban sprawl
[05:56] <calc> the closest restaurant that i like is ~ 7km roundtrip, thats a fairly long walk in 40C weather
[05:57] <calc> to even get out of my neighborhood, only houses here, it would take walking ~ 3km roundtrip to get the entrance, heh
[05:57] <calc> no sidewalks, etc
[05:57] <calc> i walked to the 7km place one day since my wife had my car
[05:58] <calc> had to walk out into a 7 lane 70kph road to get around some really bad ground
[05:58] <RAOF> Some places in America appear to suck like that; I've only been to Portland, which seemed reasonably pedestrian-friendly, but my partner went to Oak Ridge recently and it was definitely the opposite.
[05:58]  * persia boggles at the very existence of a 7 lane 70kph road being within 7km of a residential area
[05:59] <calc> they have a datasheet on the W500 (not W700) and it says with 9cell battery up to 8.3hr on integrated video
[05:59] <StevenK> 70kph, or mph?
[05:59] <calc> 45mph
[05:59] <RAOF> I think I'd go mad in those places.  Cars suck.
[05:59] <pwnguin> meh
[06:00]  * ajmitch is far too used to walking everywhere
[06:00] <pwnguin> an auto's already a requirement where i live
[06:00] <persia> Anyway, given https://launchpad.net/+builds shouldn't we be uploading or something?
[06:00] <StevenK> Why? :-)
[06:00] <calc> actually one way it is only actually 0.7km from my house to the 45kph road
[06:00] <pwnguin> 45kph
[06:01] <calc> er 45mph
[06:01] <pwnguin> thats like what, 10 miles an hour?
[06:01]  * calc is typoing
[06:01] <calc> 45mph/72kph (i think is the proper conversion)
[06:01] <pwnguin> its too damn hot here to go walking anyways
[06:01] <pwnguin> except when it's too cold or raining
[06:02] <pwnguin> snowing, or tornadoing
[06:02] <calc> pwnguin: yep very hot here
[06:02] <calc> i probably keeps it warmer in my house than it is outside for most people here ;-)
[06:03] <calc> there aren't any trees around so the aircon can't keep it very cool
[06:03] <pwnguin> granted, england could probably fit within the area between metros where i live, all of which predate the car and highway
[06:03] <calc> around 25.5C inside
[06:04] <calc> england is pretty large but has a lot of people stuffed into it
[06:04] <calc> well larger than many states in the US other than texas
[06:05] <pwnguin> england, or the uk? ;)
[06:06] <calc> UK 244,820 km^2 60.5Mil people : TX 696,241 km^2 23.9Mil people
[06:06] <calc> well even england is larger than many states (i think?)
[06:06] <StevenK> What about Australia? :-)
[06:06] <calc> australia is just a big desert ;-)
[06:06] <calc> kinda like the west side of texas
[06:07] <pwnguin> huh, actually the UK's bigger than i thought
[06:07] <lifeless> calc: england != UK
[06:07] <calc> england by itself is 130,395 km^2 50.7 Mil people
[06:07] <calc> lifeless: i know :-P
[06:08] <calc> lifeless: i forgot to lookup just the stats on england at first
[06:08] <calc> so england by itself is less than 1/4 the size of texas but has 2x as many people
[06:08] <pwnguin> which means you can probably visit the people you know without going too far ;)
[06:09] <calc> about 11.5x the population density of texas
[06:09] <calc> of course there is the part about texas being a lot of desert too
[06:10] <pwnguin> there's also washington, alaska and california :P
[06:11] <calc> relatively no one lives in alaska
[06:11] <pwnguin> heh
[06:11] <pwnguin> you're the one who cares about density
[06:11] <pwnguin> but yes, you get paid to live in alaska
[06:11] <calc> 0.41 km^@
[06:11] <calc> er 2
[06:11]  * persia looks down at all the absurdly low population density counts
[06:11] <pwnguin> and there's still nearly no takers
[06:12] <calc> 1,717,854 km^2 with 683,478 people
[06:13] <pwnguin> persia: yes well, that comes from not using the land to actually grow enough food :P
[06:19] <persia> My local prefecture contains ~ 12 million people in ~ 2,187 km^2
[06:24] <lifeless> persia: and whats the food shortfall from that land?
[06:25] <lifeless> persia: you can't count other regions for generating food, without lowering your population density :)
[06:25] <persia> lifeless: Not sure.  It does include a fair amount of argricultural produce area, but most lifestock and grain is imported.
[06:26] <persia> Within the entire country, it's something like 90% sufficient, but that takes the numbers to significantly lower density
[06:27] <persia> (only about 621 km^2 is metropolitan)
[06:30] <persia> RIght.  126 million in 377,835 km^2, but ~70% is mountains that are good for neither people nor food.
[06:31] <lifeless> see
[06:31] <lifeless> if you measure the closest regular polyhedron capable encompassing my body you can get awesome population density
[06:31] <lifeless> but it doesn't mean shit :)
[06:32] <persia> Still, about 1000 people / km^2 for non-mountainous terrain
[06:32] <Chipzz> Keybuk: If I understand correctly, upstart isn't used atm anyway except as a wrapper around the current init-scripts, and a couple of other "minor" things (like terminals) etc, and that installing it is optional and has to be done manually by the user?
[06:32] <wgrant> Chipzz: No. Upstart replaced sysvinit in Edgy
[06:33] <wgrant> If you're using >= Edgy, you're using Upstart.
[06:33] <wgrant> Unless you've done something very strange and likely stupid.
[06:33] <persia> Chipzz: Rather, there is a wrapper around initscripts that make them upstart compatible.
[06:33] <Chipzz> I'm using gutsy IIRC, but I distinctly recall installing upstart manually
[06:34] <Chipzz> then again, this install is several releases old
[06:34] <wgrant> update-manager should have installed Upstart on any upgrades to Edgy.
[06:34] <Chipzz> persia: that's what I meant :)
[06:35]  * Chipzz uses apt, not update-manager
[06:35] <wgrant> Erm
[06:35] <wgrant> Verboten.
[06:35]  * Chipzz is old-school like that :P
[06:35] <persia> apt works, as long as one ensures one has the dependencies of the selected metapackages.
[06:36] <Chipzz> wgrant: erm, I've been running debian unstable/experimental since... lemme think
[06:36] <Chipzz> about 6 or 7 years ago
[06:36] <wgrant> persia: It's officially discouraged and unsupported...
[06:36] <wgrant> Chipzz: As have others.
[06:36] <Treenaks> wgrant: even on server installs?
[06:36] <persia> wgrant: Really?  update-manager mostly just calls python-apt or synaptic (which uses libapt).  The important part is the metapackage definitions.
[06:36] <Chipzz> wgrant: do not worry. I know my way around
[06:37] <Treenaks> wgrant: where I have no gui
[06:37] <Chipzz> wgrant: I *do* know how to fix problems when they occur
[06:37] <persia> Treenaks: update-manager-core contains CLI tools
[06:37] <wgrant> Treenaks: Yes. do-release-upgrade.
[06:37] <Treenaks> wgrant: yes, but what if I'm running intrepid _now_ and upgrade every day?
[06:37] <Chipzz> wgrant: I am a sysadmin for profession, and use debian all the time
[06:38] <wgrant> Treenaks: Then you are expected to know what is going to go wrong. And you haven't got such big jumps.
[06:38] <ScottK> Treenaks: It's only needed when upgrading from one release to another (e.g. gutsy -> hardy) not when upgrading within a release.
[06:38] <Treenaks> oh yes, I've used d-r-u for that since it was introduced
[06:38] <ScottK> Chipzz: I've done that too and have generally be successfull.  It did bite me once rather badly.
[06:39] <wgrant> persia: It also knows about upgrade quirks. For example, doing a manual dist-upgrade to Hardy would generally leave you with a fairly unworking system, due to evms changes.
[06:39] <Chipzz> ScottK: heh. I've gotten myself out of pretty bad situations with debian already :)
[06:39] <Chipzz> like a broken libc :P
[06:39] <persia> wgrant: I guess.  I think that's just a workaround for bugs in the package dependencies.
[06:40] <wgrant> persia: There was no proper way to handle evms with dependencies.
[06:40] <Chipzz> transferring a running system from one HD to another one with debootstrap, and other crazy shit like that
[06:40] <persia> wgrant: Quite possibly.  That the facility for handling quirks is there doesn't mean that the evms stuff wasn't set up non-ideally to begin with.
[06:43] <dholbach> good morning
[06:44] <pitti> Good morning
[06:45] <dholbach> hi pitti
[06:45] <pitti> asac: aieeee
[06:51]  * pitti hugs dholbach
[06:52]  * dholbach hugs pitti back :)
[07:12] <bigon> could someone give back pymsn on hppa?
[07:20] <pitti> bigon: nothing to give back; it's built and arch:all
[07:25] <bigon> pitti, s/pymsn/pygtk
[07:25] <bigon> doh
[07:25] <pitti> bigon: done
[07:25] <bigon> thx
[07:42] <lukehasnoname> Good morning, mates.
[08:05] <tkamppeter> Anyone was in contact with heno recently?
[08:26] <cody-somerville> Recommends installed by default makes me want to cry now :/
[08:27] <mdke> tkamppeter: I had an email exchange with him last wednesday, if that helps
[08:27] <mdke> dholbach: hi! Seb told me that the gnome-user-docs build error can be fixed by passing --disable-scrollkeeper to configure, but I see from debian/rules that this is already the case. I don't have any idea why the build fails
[08:28] <mdke> ah, hi seb128
[08:28] <seb128> hi mdke
[08:28] <mdke> seb128: that build error on gnome-user-docs, I notice that debian/rules already contains this:
[08:28] <mdke> DEB_CONFIGURE_EXTRA_FLAGS += --disable-scrollkeeper
[08:28] <mdke> is there anything else I can do to fix the build error?
[08:28] <seb128> so that doesn't work for whatever reason, does the configure call during the build uses it?
[08:29] <mdke> I don't know :(
[08:29] <seb128> if the configure option is there look at what changed in the source which broken the option
[08:31] <mdke> hmm
[08:32] <mdke> i will have to get an intrepid chroot and test the build there
[08:34] <bigon> mdke, maybe switch to rarian-compat
[08:35] <tkamppeter> mdke, thanks. I have sent an e-mail to heno last Monday, sent a reminder last Thursday or so and also yesterday and did not get any answer.
[08:37] <dholbach> mdke, seb128: you could pass it to ./autogen.sh as well
[08:38] <seb128> dholbach: that should not make a difference, that's not an autotools option but a configure one
[08:39] <NCommander> morning seb128
[08:39] <seb128> hello NCommander
[08:39] <NCommander> how goes it?
[08:39] <mdke> bigon: I'm not sure I'm confident enough to make such a large change to gnome-user-docs though
[08:39] <dholbach> seb128: I just thought that autogen.sh would run configure at the end as well
[08:40] <mdke> dholbach: do you have a log of the build? Are you able to answer seb's question about whether configure is calling the option during the build?
[08:40] <seb128> dholbach: it does, but if using the option for the configure doesn't work it should not make a difference, no?
[08:40] <dholbach> mdke: no, I just copied that portion of the log
[08:40] <dholbach> seb128: I agree, it shouldn't
[08:40] <seb128> NCommander: busy but good, what about you?
[08:40] <NCommander> seb128, my day kinda weird. I had a good firefighting drill. I got an AM ... and I'm coding on dak
[08:41] <NCommander> So uh, yeah, when does the sky fall
[08:41] <seb128> ;-)
[08:41] <mdke> dholbach: ah, ok
[08:41] <NCommander> Oh, and I found packages in Debian which had invalid signatures to top it all of
[08:41] <NCommander> So yeah, weird day
[08:41] <seb128> sounds rather a good day ;-)
[08:42] <seb128> NCommander: not looking for updates to do then?
[08:42] <NCommander> seb128, I can if it will help my MOTU quest ;-)
[08:42]  * NCommander is hit mortal combat style
[08:44] <pitti> seb128: do you have a gnome-games upload in the pipe? if not, I'd like to upload a new version which uses lzma
[08:45] <pitti> seb128: we need to downsize the alternates
[08:45] <seb128> pitti: go for it
[08:45]  * pitti goes for it
[08:45] <seb128> NCommander: http://download.gnome.org/sources/conduit/0.3/conduit-0.3.13.1.tar.gz
[08:45] <NCommander> seb128, what category of difficulty does this fall under ;-)
[08:45] <seb128> pitti: just curious but how much lzma wins in this case?
[08:46] <seb128> NCommander: it's a standard update so should not be too hard
[08:46] <pitti> seb128: I expect some 3 MB (that was measured on gutsy, but shouldn't be much different nowadays)
[08:46]  * NCommander knocks on wood
[08:47] <pitti> seb128: not as impressive as ia32-libs (22 -> 10 MB) or libgl1-mesa-dri (13 MB -> 3 MB), but still not to be sneezed at
[08:47] <seb128> pitti: we still have ia32-libs on the cd?
[08:47] <pitti> seb128: no, we don't, it just was the first package we lzma'ed
[08:47]  * pitti holds that trophy
[08:48] <seb128> I see ;-)
[08:48] <pitti> the mesa lzmaification should rescue the kubuntu amd64 alternate
[08:48] <pitti> and the ubuntu amd64 one is now slightly oversized as well
[08:53] <NCommander> seb128, how much do you know abotu dsc files?
[08:53] <seb128> NCommander: enough for what I need to do, which means not a lot ;-)
[08:53] <NCommander> seb128, do you know if the Changed-By field ever exists in the dsc, or does it only live in the .changes?
[08:53] <seb128> no clue
[08:55] <persia> NCommander: Only in .changes
[08:56] <NCommander> persia, ok, that greatly simplifies this dak patch :-)
[09:10] <asac> pitti: ;)
[09:13] <pitti> seb128: ok, forget gnome-games, for -data lzma doesn't save much any more for some reason
[09:14] <seb128> pitti: it's already bziped, it was a 3 megas win over non-zipped?
[09:14] <pitti> seb128: are you sure?
[09:14] <pitti> ar t /var/cache/apt/archives/gnome-games-data_1%3a2.23.6-0ubuntu2_all.deb |grep data
[09:15] <pitti> data.tar.gz
[09:15] <pitti> seb128: I got that 3 MB from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/dpkg-lzma
[09:15] <pitti> but it only shrinks to 12.9 MB now
[09:15] <pitti> gnoem-games itself shrinks from 1.2 MB to 700 KB, but that's much less of a saving
[09:15] <seb128> pitti: no, I though, but apparently now
[09:17] <pitti> 12.6 MB with bzip2
[09:17] <pitti> so that's about as much air as we can drop from it
[09:17] <davmor2> pitti: iso's have just finished up dating I'll let you know in a few minutes if it is still playing up :)
[09:20] <asac> pitti: ArneGoetje: just updated langpacks from PPA ... think the current ones (5th Aug) are worth a try.
[09:20] <asac> (from firefox perspective)
[09:22] <pitti> asac: for hardy-proposed you mean?
[09:23] <asac> pitti: yes ;)
[09:24] <asac> pitti: well. the last ones were broken. just wanted to emphasize that the new ones are working again ;)
[09:24]  * pitti hugs lzma, thanks for saving 10 MB with a single mesa upload
[09:24] <asac> let me check that they fix the bug they are supposed to fix ;)
[09:24] <pitti> asac: right, thanks a lot for confirming
[09:24] <asac> pitti: yes. it fixes antoher but the finish folks have long been waiting for
[09:24] <pitti> ArneGoetje: so it seems that hardy-proposed langpack updates are unembargoed again now :)
[09:24] <asac> e.g. you can now search in the location bar again
[09:25] <asac> so please roll them to -proposed
[09:25] <asac> (before launchpad lands a new feature that makes the current po2xpi processor break again :))
[09:25] <asac> ArneGoetje: 5th aug langpacks appears to be good
[09:26] <pitti> Riddell: so, I think the kubuntu alternate amd64 should be within limit again in the next round
[09:27] <pitti> davmor2: ah, thanks; I start testing the current alternate amd64 now
[09:28] <Riddell> pitti: oh great, what did you do?
[09:28] <pitti> Riddell: build mesa with lzma, which deflates libgl1-mesa-dri from 13 to 2.8 MB
[09:28] <Riddell> lovely
[09:28] <pitti> Riddell: I diffed the i386 and amd64 .list files, and didn't see anything relevant
[09:29] <pitti> just curious that the amd64 one is so much bigger
[09:30] <pitti> Riddell: btw, are you aware ouf the various KDE out-of-date packages?
[09:30] <pitti> AFAICS kdebase and kdegraphics are just NBSes, but kdegames is a real FTBFS
[09:32] <pitti> however, there are still rdepends on kghostview and khelpcenter, so I can't kill them yet
[09:32] <ArneGoetje> asac: ok...
[09:34] <asac> ArneGoetje: thanks
[09:34] <ArneGoetje> pitti: crontab for hardy langpacks disabled. You can shift them over to -proposed. :)
[09:36] <pitti> ArneGoetje: copy in progress; I estimate that everything is built and published in about 12 hours
[09:36] <ArneGoetje> pitti: thanks :)
[09:36] <pitti> (should be less)
[09:38] <pitti> mvo: do we need a g-a-i data update for alpha-4?
[09:39] <mvo> pitti: I prepared one, but didn't manage to upload last night, is it ok (freeze wise) to upload it now?
[09:39] <pitti> mvo: sure
[09:39] <mvo> (funny, I asked in #ubuntu-release some minutes ago)
[09:39] <mvo> execellent, thanks!
[09:40] <ArneGoetje> pitti: how do I build a package with lzma? I'd like to try that on my ttf-arphic-uming font package...
[09:40] <pitti> ArneGoetje: dh_builddeb -- -Zlzma
[09:40] <ArneGoetje> pitti: thanks
[09:40] <pitti> and a Pre-Depends: on dpkg (>= the version which introduced it)
[09:40] <pitti> which I of course forgot to apply to mesa, darn
[09:41] <pitti> Pre-Depends: dpkg (>= 1.14.12ubuntu3)
[09:41] <pitti> ArneGoetje: ^
[09:43] <ArneGoetje> pitti: thanks
[09:45] <pitti> ArneGoetje: btw, if you already have a deb with standard gzip compression, it's quicker to check what lzma brings with:
[09:45] <davmor2> pitti: Fail
[09:45] <pitti> ar p /var/cache/apt/archives/gnome-games-data_1%3a2.23.6-0ubuntu2_all.deb data.tar.gz | gunzip | lzma -9 | wc -c
[09:46] <pitti> davmor2: darn, so that requires actual work; thanks for testing
[09:46] <davmor2> pitti: would it help to test kubuntu alt and see if theres a diff between the desktops?
[09:47] <pitti> davmor2: I guess it won't for that grub bug, but independently  from that testing other images is always appreciated :)
[09:47] <pitti> so if you have the time and the bandwidth, it would be great
[09:48] <davmor2> pitti: I'm an iso tester dude it's what I do :D  I got 22 up-to-date iso's
[09:48] <pitti> 22! you rock!
[09:49] <davmor2> we put together and iso-dl-script to rsync the iso's for testing :)
[09:50] <ArneGoetje> pitti: hmm... the current one uses bz2. So, it won't bring much... from 9.3M to 7.8M...
[09:50] <pitti> ArneGoetje: well, 1.5 MB is pretty good
[09:50] <ArneGoetje> pitti: ok, so I'll give it a try
[09:50] <pitti> ArneGoetje: that's about the size of oversizedness we regularly have to fight :)
[09:51] <pitti> or a small langpack
[09:51] <ArneGoetje> pitti: he he he... :)
[09:51] <ion_> We could always compress the debs with a lossy compression.
[09:53]  * soren chuckles
[09:53] <pitti> data.tar.flac :)
[09:55] <ion_> pitti: Hmm. I wonder if anyone has tried to compress arbitrary data by doing a lossy compression and then appending a diff from its result to the original. Probably doesn’t work very well on arbitrary data instead of e.g. audio.
[09:56] <pitti> ion_: but which kind of lossy compression do you want to try?
[09:56] <pitti> ion_: I am willing to bet that the sum of lossy compression plus diff is higher
[09:56] <ion_> Didn’t think that far. :-)
[09:56] <ion_> Yes, that’s what i meant with “doesn’t work very well”. :-)
[09:56] <pitti> since the diff has to contain more entropy than the lossy compression saves
[09:57] <pitti> since it has to contain the knowledge about the errors in lossy compression as well
[09:57] <pitti> we just need that fractal Borg algorithm, and they'll all compress to 1 byte
[09:57] <ion_> :-)
[09:58] <ion_> Well, everything could be “compressed” to its checksum and length. All we need is something that decompresses it quickly enough. :-)
[09:59] <ArneGoetje> pitti: ok, the new deb has 7829330 compared to 9678278 before...
[10:00] <pitti> that's pretty good
[10:01] <ion_> “Please wait. Bruteforcing sha1: a4153fa1756bb709fea51d8c7169c4710cc9fe6d, length: 2083350 to cups_1.3.8-3_i386.deb”
[10:03] <pitti> ion_: too bad that hashes aren't bijective :)
[10:15] <ArneGoetje> pitti: uploaded to rookery: ~arne/ttf-arphic-uming/
[10:17] <pitti> wrt. the current empathy discussion, how do I add my @ekiga.net SIP account? it doesn't seem to have a field for the SIP server?
[10:17] <davmor2> pitti: Riddell: Kubuntu alternate fails before grub issue.  libxine1-ffmepg: Depends: libavcodec51 (>= 3:0.svn20080206) but is not installabe :(
[10:20] <emgent> moin
[10:53] <Riddell> davmor2: humph
[10:55] <davmor2> Riddell: Pleasure :)
[10:58] <davmor2> pitti: Riddell: I'm just checking the live installs to ensure that they work (crosses figures)
[11:00] <Mirv> mvo: hi, thanks for another ddtp update. could I add "ddtp translations" to http://www.hs.fi/kaupunki/artikkeli/P%C3%A4%C3%A4kaupunkiseudun+joukkoliikenteen
[11:00] <Mirv> bah
[11:00] <Mirv> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NonLanguagePackTranslationDeadline
[11:00] <Mirv> so that they'd be somewhat officially be updated before release ca. at that point?
[11:01] <mvo> Mirv: yes, I think that makes sense
[11:01] <Mirv> mvo: yep, if there is no problem updating them so close to relase (I guess not)
[11:01] <pitti> davmor2: yay, I think I got it (grub failure)
[11:02] <davmor2> cool:)
[11:02] <mvo> Mirv: there is a risk, but its small
[11:03] <davmor2> live has red and grey blocks instead of usplash again but it seems to be working other than that :)
[11:05] <pitti> davmor2: yeah, known problem
[11:06] <pitti> BenC: I analyzed bug 256989 and I have a solution for alpha-4; input from you whether it's the truly right solution appreciated
[11:07] <davmor2> pitti: gvfs-backends issue due to out dated componants? known or not?  It tells me to upgrade to libldap-2.4-2, libhal1, libcromerr2, libbluetooth2
[11:07] <pitti> davmor2: upgrading new libs is ok, there will always be new packagaes in the current stage of development
[11:07] <pitti> davmor2: however, what's teh gvfs-backends issue?
[11:08] <davmor2> pitti: I don't know I hit the apport crash to see if it was reported and it popped up the upgrade to these versions window
[11:08] <pitti> davmor2: oh, I see
[11:09] <pitti> davmor2: so, don't worry about it for now, and report it once the system is installed and updated
[11:09] <pitti> davmor2: chances are high that it is already reported, though
[11:10] <davmor2> looks like some of the upgrades are in place to update so I'll do that reboot and see if the issue is still there
[11:12] <Mirv> I added now mention of ddtp translations (preferring doing those in Debian) and removed Firefox because those are now in language packs
[11:13] <pitti> davmor2: uploaded grub; after it's published, I'll rebuild new alternates
[11:13] <pitti> that should bring them back in size and fix the install
[11:14] <davmor2> pitti: cool ping me when they are up I'll update the iso's and retest
[11:14] <pitti> davmor2: thanks, mate
[11:19] <pitti> Riddell: ok, let's fix that uninstallability for the next kubuntu alternate, too, shall we?
[11:19]  * pitti pokes
[11:19] <Riddell> pitti: I'm away (at akademy), not really able to look at it
[11:19] <pitti> Riddell: ah, I see; I'll give it a spin
[11:20] <pitti> I wonder why it doesn't appear on http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/intrepid_probs.html
[11:20] <pitti> oh, hang on
[11:20] <pitti> ffmpeg?
[11:20] <davmor2> pitti: I dropped a message on #kubuntu-devel about it too
[11:20] <pitti> I bet it's due to some "ffmpeg thou shalt not be on CDs" germinate blacklisting
[11:21] <davmor2> pitti: mixer-applet2 crashes :( damn it
[11:24] <pitti> seb128: btw, you are still attached to the amd64 retracer
[11:24] <davmor2> bug 255554 :(
[11:25] <seb128> pitti: yes, I'm cleaning the "can't be retracer because 7.04 and 7.10 have no retracer" list
[11:25] <seb128> davmor2: what about it?
[11:25] <seb128> pitti: do you need something?
[11:25] <joaopinto> Hello, my system is freezing randomly, I have found how a way to reproduce it, it hangs when starting a game, should I file the bug against the kernel, or the video driver ?
[11:25] <davmor2> just letting you guys know
[11:25] <pitti> seb128: don't worry
[11:26] <seb128> davmor2: what is special about it?
[11:26] <seb128> davmor2: and there is 10 duplicates so we know about it
[11:27] <seb128> joaopinto: do you have anything in the xorg or syslog logs? can you ssh to the box when it's frozen or not?
[11:27] <davmor2> seb128: np's
[11:27] <joaopinto> I didn't tried to ssh, it's a workstation, I would need to install ssh and go to other system
[11:28] <seb128> davmor2: do you have a way to trigger it? does it prevent the applet to do something?
[11:28] <seb128> pitti: in fact I'm attached to the i386 retracer, the amd64 one should be available
[11:30] <joaopinto> [drm:i915_wait_irq] *ERROR* i915_wait_irq: EBUSY -- rec: 1412721 emitted: 1412727 <- found this on kernel.log
[11:30] <davmor2-away> seb128: no it crashed on reboot
[11:31] <joaopinto> I have tried the sysreq key (I had some vague idea it was expected to cause a kernel dump)
[11:31] <seb128> davmor2-away: we still need informations on the bug if you can get a valgrind log or describe how to trigger it
[11:31] <joaopinto> SysRq : HELP : loglevel0-8 reBoot Crashdump tErm Full kIll saK showMem Nice powerOff showPc show-all-timers(Q) unRaw Sync showTasks Unmount shoW-blocked-tasks
[11:31] <joaopinto> I am not sure my random freezes are related to the game start freeze
[11:32] <Mirv> mvo: the ddtp translations do not containt at least some of the universe translations I did two days ago. should they be there? I've also had some suspicions of not all Debian translations being imported, but no real proof.
[11:32] <Mirv> (it's hard to remember/know when debian translations were done with regards to when merge to ubuntu was done)
[11:32] <Mirv> mvo: and I mean I did those universe translations in ddtp-ubuntu two days ago in Rosetta
[11:33] <mvo> Mirv: that is expected, if it was just two days ago
[11:33] <mvo> Mirv: I fixed some stuff in the export code and did not yet request a new export of rosetta
[11:33] <mvo> Mirv: I will do that today though (hopefully that means it will be available tomorrow then :)
[11:34] <Mirv> mvo: ok, cool
[11:34] <davmor2-away> seb128: will do when I get back I'll ping you and find out exactly what you need
[11:35] <seb128> davmor2-away: thanks
[11:35] <pitti> Riddell: right, libxine1-ffmpeg pulls in libavcodec51 which is a no-no
[11:35] <mvo> Mirv: about the missing debian import bits, I would be very interessted if you can find some clues about those, I think the import works ok, but I'm not sure, its a multi stage process currently, so there may be bugs
[11:39] <pitti> mvo: I guess bug 255545 fix might make it to alpha-4, but we won't actually change the CDs accordingly?
[11:40] <mvo> pitti: I can upload a fixed apt now, I'm not sure what the plan is though, colin is away this week
[11:41] <pitti> mvo: right, so no hurry for an upload
[11:41] <mvo> pitti: I guess I could look at the required cd building changes (also that is new terain for me, but if we need the space)
[11:41] <pitti> mvo: long-time we need the space, but I'm ok with a4
[11:41] <pitti> (I hope)
[11:43] <pitti> Riddell, siretart: so, kubuntu desktop pulls in phonon-backend-xine, which depends: libxine1 which recommends: libxine1-ffmpeg
[11:43] <pitti> Riddell, siretart: and on top of that libxine1 depends: libxine1-plugins (which also pulls in libavcodec)
[11:44] <pitti> Riddell, siretart: does it make any sense to change the dependencies of xine, or shall we drop phonon-backend-xine from the seeds?
[11:44] <pitti> i. e. is it better to ship a reduced xine on kubuntu and let easy-codec-installation (does it work for kde?) worry about libavcodec, or is it better to not ship xine at all?
[11:46] <pitti> Riddell, siretart: argh, dragonplayer pulls in libxine1, too
[11:46] <Riddell> (it's in main for a reason)
[11:49] <mdz> seb128: gnome-session is segfaulting during login for me
[11:49] <mdz> but apport doesn't trigger for some reason
[11:49] <seb128> mdz: do you have a stacktrace?
[11:49] <seb128> are you sure it's a segfault?
[11:50] <mdz> seb128: no, but I will get one.  I had to downgrade gnome-session in order to get logged in
[11:50] <mdz> [   63.025472] gnome-session[6222]: segfault at 70706120 ip b776b263 sp bfa719a4 error 4 in libc-2.8.90.so[b76f4000+158000]
[11:50] <mdz> [  139.337706] gnome-session[6934]: segfault at 70706120 ip b76a3263 sp bf8aac84 error 4 in libc-2.8.90.so[b762c000+158000]
[11:50] <mdz> [  409.272432] gnome-session[7643]: segfault at 70706120 ip b77ef263 sp bf9f45c4 error 4 in libc-2.8.90.so[b7778000+158000]
[11:50] <seb128> to what version did you downgrade?
[11:50] <mdz> 2.22.1.1-0ubuntu2
[11:50] <seb128> urg
[11:50] <mdz> that was the next most recent one in the pool
[11:50] <mdz> pitti: do you have any guess why apport didn't trigger for my gnome-session segfault?
[11:51] <seb128> mdz: oh, that's hardy?
[11:51] <mdz> gnome-session | 2.23.6-0ubuntu1 | http://archive.ubuntu.com intrepid/main Sources
[11:51] <mdz> gnome-session | 2.22.1.1-0ubuntu2 | http://archive.ubuntu.com hardy/main Sources
[11:51] <mdz> seb128: yep
[11:51] <seb128> ah ok
[11:51] <pitti> mdz: is there anything in /var/log/apport.log, and is apport enabled in /etc/default/apport ?
[11:52] <mdz> pitti: the answer to your second question is yes. will check the first
[11:52] <pitti> mdz: if it crashes that often, you might have hit the "at most 3 reports per program per day" threshold
[11:52] <mdz> pitti: there are errors in apport.log, but it's difficult to correlate because there are no timestamps
[11:53] <pitti> so there already might be a /var/crash/_gnome-session_.crash
[11:53] <mdz> pitti: I have two .crash in /var/crash from today
[11:53] <mdz> pitti: but neither of them is gnome-session
[11:53] <pitti> mdz: weird, no timestamps?
[11:54] <pitti> mdz: can you put the file somewhere, or does it have anything s3kr1t?
[11:55] <mdz> pitti: oh, it has timestamps, just earlier on
[11:55] <mdz> pitti: http://people.ubuntu.com/~mdz/temp/apport.log
[11:56] <mdz> seb128: bug 257250 with a copy of .xsession-errors
[11:56] <pitti> mdz: weird, is there no /proc mounted by any chance?
[11:56] <mdz> pitti: definitely mounted
[11:57] <mdz> pitti: on an unrelated note, I noticed that apport triggers the kernel's hung task timeout
[11:57] <joaopinto> seb128, I am able to login to the frozen system using ssh, I have also checked the instructions on how to generate a kernel bug report using SysRq
[11:57] <joaopinto> now I just want to make sure I will be reporting the bug into the proper package
[11:57] <seb128> joaopinto: that's like an xorg issue if you can ssh
[11:57] <seb128> likely
[11:58] <pitti> mdz: do you get a proper report if you do: bash -c 'kill -segv $$'
[11:58] <joaopinto> well, after killing X I just got garbage, and keys kept not working
[11:58] <seb128> mdz: hum ok, a stacktrace and a valgrind log could be useful
[11:59] <seb128> mdz: I'm wondering if having /etc/xdg/autostart trackers autostarts and tracker not installed create issues
[11:59] <mdz> pitti: yes I do
[11:59] <mdz> seb128: I can test installing tracker
[11:59] <pitti> mdz: hm, I have no idea right now why /proc/pid wasn't available at that time
[12:00] <seb128> mdz: or move those autostarts away
[12:00] <joaopinto> well, I am going to to file the bug against xserver-xorg-video-intel
[12:00] <mdz> pitti: I also noticed that update-notifier shows the wrong program  name when it contains a '_' (same char used to replace '/' in the path)
[12:00] <mdz> seb128:  I have a meeting now but will look at this more after
[12:00] <pitti> oh, true that
[12:01] <joaopinto> and hope it's the same problem for my random freezes, which are really annoying on a primary workstation :\
[12:01] <mdz> pitti: is that apport's bug or update-notifier's?
[12:01] <pitti> mdz: apport plugin in u-n
[12:01] <seb128> mdz: ok, let me know how it goes
[12:01] <pitti> but to fix that properly, it requires coordination from both
[12:01] <seb128> lunch time
[12:01] <pitti> so preferably I'd fix it in apport-checkreports and change the communication between u-n and a-checkreports
[12:04] <joaopinto> seb128, since I am unable to CTRL-ALT-F1, shouldn't it be a kernel issue ? Isn't the kernel managing for the console switch ?
[12:05] <seb128> joaopinto: look to the logs for errors but xorg or applications can steal keyboard events
[12:05] <StevenK> joaopinto: Run 'sudo chvt 1' from ssh
[12:05] <seb128> joaopinto: there is some compiz bugs which broke vt switching
[12:05] <joaopinto> hum, that's odd, I though such combination would be identified at a lower level
[12:06] <joaopinto> StevenK, the system is frozen, I can only login remotelly
[12:07] <StevenK> joaopinto: Then run it after you've logged in remotely is what I'm suggesting
[12:07] <joaopinto> seb128, ok, I am still missing something, xorg stealing keyboard events from kernel :P ?
[12:07] <joaopinto> StevenK, ok, will try
[12:07] <joaopinto> anyway I just want to be sure I will pick the proper component, maybe the intel video driver is really the better choice
[12:09] <joaopinto> but again, shouldn't killing X release the keyboard lock ?
[12:11] <pitti> siretart: so how was the "xine in main" deal meant originally? AFAIK we had xine on the kubuntu CDs in hardy as well, without pulling in libavcodec
[12:11] <StevenK> pitti: You did a little NBS didn't you? I didn't see libct3 this afternoon in the list
[12:12] <pitti> StevenK: killed it last night, yes
[12:16] <pitti> calc: what's your plan wrt. OO.o? if you want to push some fixes into a4, we need the upload today, otherwise I'd just move the milestoned bugs to a5?
[12:17] <pitti> tkamppeter: any idea about bug 251111? the import error might point to a missing dependency? or is it already fixed in the current s-c-p?
[12:19] <Riddell> pitti: that should be fixed now
[12:20] <pitti> Riddell: thanks
[12:20] <Riddell> pitti: guess I forgot to add the bug to the changelog, I'll clos eit
[12:21] <pitti> ScottK: what's the status of bug 247332, do you want to see it in alpha-4? is it ack'ed/tested, and thus just needs sponsoring, or is the patch not complete yet?
[12:56] <ScottK> pitti: It's needing lamont to get some time to look into it.  He said he thought he'd get to it tonight.
[12:58] <joaopinto> uff, I found my bug is reported since Dapper
[13:09] <StevenK> pitti: Sorry, no MIR today, I'll do it tomorrow, and point you at it
[13:43] <persia> pitti: In response to your question yesterday, the thread at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-devel/2008-August/002612.html has been started to deal with denemo
[13:47] <pitti> persia: ah, thank you!
[13:47] <pitti> davmor2-away: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/daily/20080812.1/ there we go
[13:54] <dholbach> emgent: do you think you can forward the Homepage field update changes to Debian too?
[13:55] <emgent> yeah, I'm sending them now.
[13:56] <emgent> btw, hi dholbach :)
[13:57] <dholbach> ROCK ON
[13:57] <dholbach> :)
[14:05] <davmor2> seb128: ping
[14:05] <davmor2> pitti: up-dating now :)
[14:11] <emgent> dholbach: http://daniel.holba.ch/really-fix-it/ clean page?
[14:11] <emgent> uhm no, now work.
[14:11] <emgent> sorry.
[14:11] <emgent> :)
[14:11] <dholbach> it's harvest now
[14:11] <dholbach> really-fix-it is dead
[14:13] <Keybuk> slangasek: is a release freeze a bad time to upload a rewrite of upstart? :)
[14:18] <emgent> http://apu.debconf.org:8000/Salon_del_mar.ogv.m3u
[14:18] <davmor2> seb128: I've rebooted my machine and it doesn't crash again :(
[14:19] <seb128> davmor2: ok, as said not easy to get details on the issue, but it's also not a really annoy issue
[14:19] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: he's on holidays, so...
[14:19] <Keybuk> oh, of course
[14:19] <Keybuk> debconf
[14:20] <davmor2> seb128: could it be down to a change in applet that gnome is remembering?
[14:20] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: on that basis, it might be a good time.  it'll either work fine, in which case, he won't kill you, or it won't work, in which case, you'll have more time to prepare, and run :)
[14:20] <seb128> davmor2: what do you mean? no, it's likely a crash, could be happened when closing the session and be displayed on next login
[14:22] <davmor2> seb128: okay it came up after a reboot from upgrade.  So I've done a sudo reboot see if it fires off again
[14:24] <slangasek> Keybuk: <mumble, gnash>
[14:25] <davmor2> seb128: Ah strange now I get gvfsd-trash error :(
[14:25] <seb128> davmor2: would be nice to get a valgrind log for this one too, there is a zillion duplicate too
[14:25] <pitti> davmor2: yay, installing grub worked now
[14:26] <davmor2> pitti:  I'll confirm it shortly :)
[14:26] <davmor2> seb128: how do you get the valgrind log?
[14:27] <seb128> davmor2: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Valgrind
[14:28] <davmor2> ta
[14:28] <pitti> X still hangs when starting the session, but that seems to be a driver/compiz problem which by and large happens in kvm/vmware
[14:28] <seb128> davmor2: cd /usr/lib/gvfs, sudo mv gvfs gvfs-binary and create a gvfs wrapper which calls valgrind /usr/lib/gvfs/gvfs-binary
[14:28] <pitti> tjaalton, bryce: ^ any idea about it? gdm works, then it hangs when starting the session
[14:29] <seb128> davmor2: don't forget to install gvfs-dbgsym gvfs-backends-dbgsym libgtk2.0-0-dbgsym too
[14:29] <tjaalton> pitti: which card?
[14:30] <pitti> tjaalton: hm, whatever kvm/vmware do; if this is news to you, I'll try some further debugging and open a bug report with logs et al
[14:30] <pitti> bbl, testing desktop cd on real iron
[14:31] <tjaalton> pitti: so the host freezes, or just the guest?
[14:35] <mdz> does anyone know what pulled libchipcard-tools into desktop?
[14:35] <mdz> it looks like perhaps it's been fixed already, but it ended up on both of my intrepid systems
[14:35] <mdz> and is not marked automatically installed
[14:37] <mdz> or am I the only one who has it unexpectedly installed?
[14:38] <tedg> mdz, I have it installed too.  No idea why.  Does it make chocolate chips cookie cards? :)
[14:39] <mdz> tedg: it wakes up every 1000ms or so and scans over sysfs, to help you reduce your battery life
[14:40] <seb128> mdz: apport not working on gnome-session is likely a due to policykit
[14:40] <mdz> seb128: is it a bug?
[14:40] <seb128> pitti: ^ should we drop the noptrace change in unstable?
[14:40] <seb128> mdz: no, it's a security measure, see  bug #202314
[14:41] <seb128> mdz: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/policykit/+bug/202314/comments/6
[14:41] <mdz> pitti: crash reports from the guest session end up mode 000; is that a bug?
[14:41] <mdz> seb128: thanks
[14:42] <mdz> seb128: that's marked fixed; did it regress?
[14:43] <mdz> seb128: I can reproduce the gnome-session crash easily, but it will be tricky to catch it in gdb
[14:43] <seb128> mdz: as pointed in pitti's comment we decided to have the security patch on stable versions, so it was added to hardy
[14:43] <seb128> mdz: and I guess pitti_live didn't drop it yet in intrepid
[14:44] <mdz> oh, I see
[14:44] <pitti_live> hi
[14:44] <seb128> hey pitti_live
[14:44] <pitti_live> I just booted the current live, and I have a strange theme
[14:44] <mdz> pitti_live: is this something we should add to a release checklist?
[14:44] <pitti_live> that sounds like a g-s-daemon crash?
[14:44] <seb128> pitti_live: should we drop the noptrace policykit patch again?
[14:44] <pitti_live> seb128: I thought I did already?
[14:45] <seb128> pitti_live: in intrepid? the changelog doesn't mention that, you added it back to hardy stable for security reasons
[14:45] <pitti_live> hm, g-settings-daemon is running, but the theme is still wrong
[14:45] <pitti_live> seb128: yes, I thought I disabled it again when merging 0.9, let me check
[14:45] <mdz>     - 02_noptrace.patch.disabled: Disable ptrace() and core dumping for
[14:45] <mdz>       programs using libpolkit for security reasons; not enabled during
[14:45] <mdz>       development.
[14:46] <mdz> the patch seems to still be disabled, which means ptrace should work
[14:47] <seb128> mdz: ok, that was a guess, might be due to something else
[14:47] <mdz> pitti: I see a lot of "another apport instance is already running, aborting"
[14:47] <seb128> but I don't think we got any gnome-panel or gnome-session apport crash in intrepid which is a bit weird
[14:47] <mdz> glxinfo seems to be crashing too; I wonder if that's blocking it from seeing the gnome-session crash
[14:48] <pitti_live> seb128: kill -SEGV panel works and gives me an apport report, so that confirms that the ptrace patch is off
[14:48] <seb128> ok, that was a guess, sorry for the noise
[14:48] <pitti_live> $ metacity --replace
[14:48] <pitti_live> Window manager warning: Failed to load theme "Human-Murrine": Failed to find a valid file for theme Human-Murrine
[14:48] <pitti_live> aah
[14:48] <pitti_live> that sounds like a missing dependency
[14:49] <seb128> pitti_live: human-theme is installed?
[14:49] <Ng> asac: the new NM 0.7 hardy PPA stuff seems fine, although the openvpn bit isn't working for me on hardy
[14:50] <pitti_live> seb128: yes
[14:50] <pitti_live> seb128: ah, /usr/share/themes/Human-Murrine/ is more or less empty, just a gtkrc
[14:50] <pitti_live> no pngs or anything
[14:51] <pitti_live> seb128: do you happen to know, what's supposed to be the default, NewHuman or Human-Murrine?
[14:51] <seb128> no clue
[14:51] <pitti_live> ok, will talk to kwwii
[14:51] <seb128> grep gtk /usr/share/gconf/defaults/* ?
[14:52] <pitti_live> fun, if I manually select Human-Murrine in appearance, it works
[14:52] <mdz> pitti_live: I'm still getting invalid problem reports for guest account crashes
[14:52] <pitti_live>  /usr/share/gconf/defaults/10_libgnome2-common:/desktop/gnome/interface/gtk_themeHuman
[14:52] <pitti_live>  /usr/share/gconf/defaults/16_ubuntu-artwork:/desktop/gnome/interface/gtk_theme      Human-Murrine
[14:53] <mdz> pitti_live: do you set special rlimits on the guest session?
[14:53] <pitti_live> mdz: I didn't change the apparmor profile yet
[14:53] <mdz> oh
[14:53] <pitti_live> mdz: it's still curious, because AA is per process, not per user
[14:53] <pitti_live> thus, I limit gnome-session only
[14:53] <pitti_live> apport is forked by the kernel and thus shouldn't be affected
[14:53] <pitti_live> but I didn't investigate that yet
[14:54] <mdz> pitti_live: there are a bunch of apparmor errors about /dev/zero in the guest session as well
[14:56] <davmor2> seb128: Right I think I've selected everything for install.  So I create a new file call it gvfs and add #! /bin/bash (nl) valgrind /usr/lib/gvfs/gvfs-binary.  Is that correct?
[14:56] <Ng> asac: having said that, disabling wireless via the applet just now froze my machine for a few seconds (no input movement, audio buffers repeating), but it did come back.
[14:59] <pitti_live> TheMuso: I still get the squeaking sound from pcspkr with the live cd startup; maybe we should just blacklist that silly module altogether, if all your workarounds in alsa and pulse don't work?
[14:59] <seb128> davmor2: no, you renamed gvfsd-trash to gvfsd-trash-binary and create a gvfsd-trash which calls valgrind /usr/lib/gvfs/gvfsd-trash-binary --log-file=/youruserdir/gvfs.log for example
[14:59] <seb128> davmor2: you can use gvfs-%p.log so it'll not replace the log at next login
[14:59] <StevenK> pitti: How come gnustep-back0.12 has missed your pruning? It only has hppa rdepends
[15:00] <asac> Ng: did you get the -openvpn from PPA?
[15:01] <StevenK> pitti: Which means gnustep-back0.12-art can die too
[15:01] <asac> Ng: the hang is a driver issue
[15:01] <asac> Ng: if you have the chance to test them, please also test vpnc and pptp
[15:01] <davmor2> seb128: but is the idea behind the wrapper right I've never written one?  Or is it just a file called gvfsd-trash with the valgrind line in?
[15:02] <Ng> asac: I don't have vpnc/pptp setups unfortunately. going by the logs it seemed like NM was trying to ask me for auth details for the openvpn connection, but it shouldn't need any, my key is passwordless (and indeed if I tell the openvpn init scripts to make the connection, they don't ask for any further details)
[15:03] <seb128> davmor2: correct
[15:04] <asac> Ng: if its the latest openvpn from network-manager ppa, please open a bug and give me the number ;)
[15:04] <Ng> asac: ok
[15:04] <asac> Ng: as usual attach complete syslog taken after reproducing ;)
[15:04] <asac> Ng: and whatever you think is important/special
[15:04] <seb128> davmor2: that's because you don't run gvfsd-trash, GNOME does that for you, so the easier way to get a valgrind log is to trick the command this way
[15:04] <Ng> asac: will do
[15:04] <asac> good
[15:04]  * seb128 grrrr at apport being so slooow
[15:04] <davmor2> seb128: ah okay ta
[15:05] <pitti> StevenK: yay
[15:11] <pitti> okay, I get the same theme bug in the guest session, too
[15:11] <pitti> hm, and kwwii is on holidays ...
[15:13] <pitti> mdz: right, I get the same exceptions under the guest account
[15:14] <mdz> pitti: which? glxinfo crash? gnome-session crash? invalid .crash file?
[15:14] <johanbr> asac: After installing network-manager-vpnc from the ppa, the Add button under VPN is still greyed out.
[15:14] <pitti> mdz: invalid .crash file and /proc/12345 does not exist
[15:14] <mdz> pitti: interesting
[15:14] <mdz> pitti: I got the latter on a regular account
[15:15] <mdz> pitti: do you get 'another apport instance is already running'?
[15:15] <pitti> mdz: no
[15:16] <pitti> oh, indeed my log files show the same exception for a regular account, too
[15:16] <pitti> wth?
[15:17] <asac> johanbr: ok. i think vpnc needs a special UI
[15:17]  * pitti runs /usr/share/apport/testsuite/test-apport kernel
[15:17] <johanbr> asac: Okay. I had network-manager-vpnc-gnome installed before, but that get removed when I upgraded.
[15:17] <pitti> mdz: ^ indeed, this is very brittle, and fails at different tests in different runs
[15:17] <johanbr> "...got removed"
[15:18] <mdz> seb128: I can reproduce the gnome-session crash in Xephyr, will have a backtrace soon
[15:18] <asac> johanbr: ok. i dont find it in hardy archive
[15:18] <seb128> mdz: good thanks
[15:18] <pitti> mdz: since I didn't change that code for ages, I'll diff the relevant kernel bits, maybe something changed since .24
[15:19] <ion_> johanbr: Thanks for having people trigger my hilight constantly. ;-)
[15:19] <johanbr> ion_: ?
[15:20] <ion_> johanbr: Heh, nothing. I just happen to have our given name in hilight list. :-)
[15:20] <johanbr> asac: network-manager-vpnc-gnome | 0.6.6svn3381-0ubuntu1 | http://ubuntu.media.mit.edu intrepid/universe Packages
[15:20] <johanbr> ion_: ahh, okay. Sorry. :)
[15:20] <ion_> Heh
[15:21] <seb128> johanbr: I guess those have not been ported to nm 0.7
[15:22] <asac> johanbr: have you restarted your system after installing that package
[15:22] <mdz> seb128: backtrace is in bug 257250 now.  it is segfaulting trying to print some error message
[15:22] <asac> seb128: i have updated all the vpn packages in ppa yesterday
[15:22] <johanbr> asac: The -vpnc-gnome package is no longer installed, but I did restart after installing network-manager-vpnc, yes.
[15:22] <asac> seb128: i dont see the gnome one at all here
[15:22] <seb128> asac: gnome what?
[15:24] <seb128> mdz: what arch do you use?
[15:24] <mdz> seb128: i386
[15:24] <seb128> mdz: I've a patch, I can give you a package to try in 2 minutes
[15:24] <mdz> seb128: cool, once I have it I can try to find out what's causing the error (since apparently it's not happening for others)
[15:26] <Ng> asac: found a similar bug report from earlier this afternoon and added a comment/log. bug 257246
[15:26] <Ng> my errors aren't entirely the same, so maybe it should have been a separate bug
[15:28] <mdz> pitti: if I disable apport, it writes a core file OK
[15:28] <mdz> pitti: is there any way to turn that into a .crash so that it can be easily retraced etc.?
[15:30] <pitti> mdz: you can feed it to stdin of /usr/share/apport/apport <pid> 11 0
[15:31] <pitti> mdz: but it expects a pid to work on, which is gone with a normal core dump
[15:31] <davmor2> seb128: I just don't seem to get a trashcan anymore :(
[15:31] <mdz> pitti: but <pid> won't exist
[15:31] <pitti> mdz: you can probably fake it well enough by restarting and using that pid
[15:33] <mdz> pitti: that worked, thanks
[15:33] <calc> pitti: yea the release was delayed please bump the a4 to a5 as you mentioned
[15:36] <pitti> calc: done, thanks
[15:37] <calc> pitti: thank you :)
[15:37] <pitti> asac: can you please give me a quick heads-up for bug 232392?
[15:38] <pitti> asac: it has a patch and is marked for alpha-4; if it should land in a4, it needs to be uploaded today
[15:40] <seb128> mdz: http://people.ubuntu.com/~seb128/gnome-session_2.23.6-0ubuntu2_i386.deb
[15:42] <mdz> seb128: crashes in the same place
[15:43] <seb128> hum, weird
[15:43] <mdz> except the format string is slightly different
[15:43] <mdz> "Unable to parse command: %s"
[15:49] <mdz> seb128: looks like it's /etc/xdg/autostart/smart-notifier.desktop which triggers it
[15:49] <seb128> mdz: new deb at the same place, does it make a difference?
[15:49] <seb128> mdz: the error is Terminal= which is invalid in one of the .desktop installed
[15:50] <mdz> seb128: smart-notifier.desktop has Terminal=False
[15:50] <mdz> seb128: I've attached it to the bug
[15:50] <seb128> did you try moving it away?
[15:50] <mdz> seb128: yes
[15:51] <seb128> that fixes the issue?
[15:51] <mdz> seb128: yes
[15:51] <mdz> seb128: all the other .desktop have Terminal=false (lowercase)
[15:52] <seb128> ok thanks, I've enough informations to work on it now
[15:52] <mdz> seb128: changing it to "false" fixes the issue as well
[15:52] <seb128> did you try the new deb and the .desktop buggy version?
[15:52] <mdz> seb128: trying now
[15:53] <mdz> seb128: new .deb still crashes
[15:53] <mdz> e444a6ed41a0aa749f5eb056d9ad8979  gnome-session_2.23.6-0ubuntu2_i386.deb
[15:54] <mdz> a362c18f9cdce8255a31736b1c31659f  /usr/bin/gnome-session
[15:54] <seb128> mdz: cd8cc4c0958cd74240eda2f0dd478a1a  gnome-session_2.23.6-0ubuntu2_i386.deb
[15:54] <seb128> mdz: anyway don't bother I've enough information to work on it without having you testing
[15:55] <pitti> tjaalton: aah, the X hang in vm could actually be bug 246969, I'll test that
[15:56] <tjaalton> pitti: see, X has no bugs ;)
[15:57] <pitti> BenC: WDYT about that bug? ^
[15:58] <BenC> pitti: Interesting
[15:58] <pitti> BenC: in particular about blacklisting snd_pcspkr by default?
[15:58] <BenC> pitti: Makes me happy
[15:58] <pitti> BenC: we have two RC bugs on the "caveats" list since the last couple of alphas, would be nice to at least provide a workaround IMHO
[16:01] <pitti> BenC: ok, then I might just do a module-init-tools upload for that and see who beats me up :)
[16:02] <mdz> seb128: shall I file a bug on smart-notifier as well about the bogus .desktop?
[16:03] <mdz> seb128: or is it not bogus?
[16:03] <seb128> mdz: yes please, the specification says it should be "true" or "false"
[16:04] <mdz> seb128: filed bug 257321 and purging smart-notifier from my system ;-)
[16:05] <seb128> thanks ;-)
[16:05] <davmor2> pitti: just to confirm grub works :)
[16:06] <mdz> pitti: should I file a bug report to track whatever is causing the test failures in apport?
[16:07] <pitti> mdz: that would be good, please assign it to me
[16:07] <pitti> might be a kernel prob, but apport will do for now
[16:08] <buggs> hoi
[16:09] <buggs> bryce, i'm here because of the xrandr problem here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Projects
[16:16] <pitti> yay, ubiquity now has an "automatically sign in" checkbox
[16:17] <superm1> ah i knew it was in oem-config, glad it made it to ubiquity too :)
[16:18] <mdz> pitti: test-apport kernel fails reliably for me on * Check that collected system groups has nonempty user groups information
[16:23] <mdz> pitti: done, bug 257326
[16:23]  * mdz notices the we-love-pitti team in launchpad
[16:29] <pitti> mdz: thanks
[16:30] <pitti> ugh, kvm lockup
[16:31] <asac> johanbr: ok. just saw that i didnt upload the -vpnc package to hardy yet
[16:31] <asac> johanbr: thats now done
[16:31] <asac> so in a few ours you should get a better package
[16:31] <mdz> pitti: I've also filed bug 257331
[16:32] <johanbr> asac: Sorry, but what does the hardy package have to do with the 0.7 package in intrepid?
[16:33] <pitti> mdz: ah, good idea
[16:35] <pitti> meh, does editmoin work for anyone else with wiki.u.c.? stopped working for me some days ago, even after updating my cookie
[16:37] <asac> johanbr: ok. then i didnt get you right
[16:37] <asac> johanbr: if you have opened a bug, i will come to it soon
[16:38] <asac> pitti: testing and if good uploading nss. thanks for prodding
[16:42] <asac> pitti: uploaded
[16:45] <pitti> asac: is there a spec for the new network-manager, where I could take a "release notes" paragraph from?
[16:45] <pitti> asac: I guess you want it mentioned in the alpha-4 notes :)
[16:45] <johanbr> asac: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/257336
[16:52] <pitti> bryce, tjaalton: I added a stanza about new X and input hotplug to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidIbex/TechnicalOverview ; I'd appreciate a review and corrections/amendments
[16:53] <pitti> asac: please feel free to fill out the networkmanager section here ^
[17:00] <seb128> emgent: is adding a webpage in the control really worth having local change for a package which was in sync before!?
[17:01] <emgent> seb128: i opened bug in BTS too
[17:01] <emgent> i hope that new debian commit is again a sync for ubuntu
[17:01] <asac> pitti: added to TODO ... on my way out; ill see if can add that section when i come back
[17:01] <seb128> emgent: still, do you really think it's worth having divergence?
[17:02] <seb128> emgent: can't that be reported to debian so it'll be part of the next syncs?
[17:02] <emgent> seb128: in the next debian commit is again a sync, homepage field is more util in packages.ubuntu.com
[17:02] <seb128> emgent: you are creating extra work for everybody there (need to have ubuntu changes, then to file a sync request, etc)
[17:03] <emgent> seb128: i know it`s a minimal issue
[17:03] <seb128> emgent: what was so urgent that you could open the debian bug, wait for them to do the change and sync?
[17:03] <seb128> couldn't
[17:03] <emgent> ok understand
[17:03] <seb128> thanks
[17:03] <emgent> np thanks to you
[17:04] <seb128> it's better for everybody to keep packages in sync when that's possible
[17:04] <seb128> changing a control description is usually not a real compelant reason to bring divergence
[17:07] <tjaalton> pitti: looks good, although it's RC6 :)
[17:16] <asac> johanbr: what was your bug id again?
[17:17] <johanbr> asac: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/257336
[17:17] <asac> johanbr: i dont think there is a ui still needed
[17:18] <johanbr> asac: Can you add vpnc connections with the editor?
[17:18] <asac> johanbr: yes ... you need the network-manager-vpnc package > 0.7~~
[17:19] <johanbr> asac: that's installed
[17:19] <asac> which version?
[17:19] <johanbr> 0.7~~svn20080807t145225-0ubuntu2~nm2
[17:20] <asac> johanbr: killall nm-applet
[17:20] <asac> then nm-applet from a console
[17:20] <asac> what errors do you see when going to the VPN tab
[17:20] <alex-weej> setting "Normal" "Effects" in gnome-control-center activates compiz but doesn't seem to set the /apps/gnome-session/gnome-wm key to "compiz" -- it stays as metacity
[17:20] <alex-weej> this is broken, ya?
[17:21] <johanbr> asac: none
[17:23] <asac> johanbr: which network-manager-gnome-package version?
[17:23] <tjaalton> pitti: fixed
[17:25] <asac> johanbr: err, s/-package/ package/
[17:26] <johanbr> asac: ahh, there's an update for that. Let me try...
[17:28] <asac> johanbr: upgrade everything to latest from PPA
[17:39] <totopalma> hi :)
[17:42] <totopalma> Riddell, can you take a look at bug #250459 please? :)
[17:43] <totopalma> tseliot, hi :)
[17:44] <tseliot> totopalma: hi ;)
[17:44] <mathiaz> totopalma: It's on my sponsoring list - I'll have a look at it later today
[17:45] <totopalma> mathiaz, ah, ok :)
[17:49] <Riddell> totopalma: not today I'm afraid (still at akademy0
[18:16] <johanbr> asac: installing the new network-manager-gnome improved things a bit. Now I get the UI, but the OK button is greyed out, even after I've filled out all the account info.
[18:19] <alex-weej> when i cat a /dev/input/eventX file shouldn't i get some data when i, e.g, stroke my touchpad or press keys?
[18:23] <asac> johanbr: for met just "gateway" + "group" enabled OK
[18:26]  * asac out .... will be back later
[18:26] <johanbr> asac: got it. Works for me.
[18:26] <asac> cool
[18:26] <johanbr> Stupid mistake on my part.
[18:28] <kirkland> TheMuso: any chance  you're around?
[19:04] <emgent> pitti: one question, rapache is backported in hardy and I have one fix to apply (applyed in intrepid now).
[19:05] <emgent> i can fix it in hardy too or i should ask another backport ?
[19:06] <emgent> ScottK ?
[19:11] <kirkland> slangasek: hi, ping me if you come around and have a few minutes for grub/raid
[19:13] <LaserJock> emgent: you are asking if you should upload to hardy-backports directly or ask for a new backport?
[19:18] <emgent> LaserJock: correct
[19:21] <LaserJock> emgent: ScottK would know for sure, but I believe if it's a no-change backport it's supposed to go through the normal backporting process rather than direct upload
[19:53] <tseliot> superm1: how did you fix this bug (i.e. which way did you choose)? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fglrx-installer/+bug/254969
[19:58] <Adri2000> Riddell (as it's your day) or any archive admin: amsn hardy sru (bug #243722) received sufficient positive feedback now I think, and it's been 7 days since it was approved in -proposed (I think it's the minimum time, but can't find it on the wiki), so could you move it to -updates please?
[19:59] <tjaalton> tseliot: nvidia-glx-* should Conflicts: xorg-driver-fglrx
[19:59] <superm1> tseliot, just conflicts: nvidia-glx-*
[19:59] <superm1> listing all 4 of them
[20:00] <superm1> eg nvidia-glx-71,nvidia-glx-96 etc
[20:00] <tseliot> superm1,tjaalton: there are at least 2 ways to do it
[20:00] <tseliot> the easiest solution (for us) is what you suggested
[20:01] <tseliot> something a bit harder would be Conflicts, Replace, Provides and some diversions
[20:02] <tseliot> superm1,tjaalton: so that you won't have to uninstall one driver before you can install the other
[20:02] <tacone> tseliot: what's the status of your xorg parser ?
[20:02] <tseliot> I'm ok with either solution
[20:03] <tseliot> tacone: it works well and should be introduced soon. Why are you asking?
[20:03] <tacone> because I am working to a parser either (apache conf).
[20:04] <tseliot> tacone: I mean, did you ask because you're planning to use my parser?
[20:05] <tjaalton> tseliot: it's much cleaner this way
[20:05] <tacone> currently your api is different from what we're looking after, and also apache conf is a little different. but I could reuse some code, maybe.
[20:06] <tacone> tseliot: also may I ask you if you tried augeas and what do you think of it ?
[20:07] <tseliot> tjaalton,superm1: let's use Conflicts since it will make maintainance easier
[20:08] <superm1> tseliot, ok
[20:08] <tseliot> tacone: no, sorry I haven't tried augeas yet
[20:09] <tacone> tseliot: ok, thank you
[20:09] <tseliot> superm1: ok, I'll add the Conflicts to my packages soon.
[20:09] <superm1> tseliot, the fglrx won't see the changes until 8-8
[20:10] <superm1> no use doing another upload until then since they are still broke anyway
[20:10] <superm1> due to the xorg 1.5 abi junk
[20:10] <tseliot> superm1: right. I'm doing the same for my 2 legacy drivers
[20:15] <giacomo> hello
[21:14] <LaserJock> hmm, not sure if it's just me or not but Hardy seems to be getting buggier the longer I use it
[21:15] <LaserJock> it'd be interesting to see if that's a general trend
[21:15] <\sh> LaserJock: regarding desktop or server?
[21:15] <LaserJock> desktop
[21:16] <LaserJock> a few days ago my network stopped working right after resuming
[21:16] <LaserJock> and today the gnome clock applet seems to not work
[21:16] <\sh> ah...I use kde 4.1 from ppa..there are no bugs ,-> just tasks to be finished ;)
[21:16] <LaserJock> but those are just the latest "regressions" I've encountered
[21:17] <LaserJock> \sh: many many tasks ;-p
[21:17] <\sh> LaserJock: not so many tasks then the desaster bug from vmware today
[21:18]  * \sh needs to switch to gnome at some time again to see the state..
[21:18] <LaserJock> \sh: I managed around 2 days on KDE 4.1
[21:19] <LaserJock> a big improvement from 4.0 for sure, but it seems to me like KDE must be designed by people with large resolution monitors
[21:19] <LaserJock> because all the windows/widgets are huge on my laptop
[21:19] <norsetto> LaserJock: we care for the visual challenged
[21:19] <\sh> LaserJock: nope...when you adjust the sizes to your needs, it fits also on a 1024x768 low form factor display
[21:20] <LaserJock> hmm, on my 1440x900 laptop it's quite cramped
[21:20] <\sh> LaserJock: on this t43 1400xsomething it fits very nicely..,much better then on my 1280x1024
[21:21] <slytherin> doko: Can you please take a look at bug 256949? It is within your jurisdiction. :-)
[21:21] <\sh> LaserJock: but do you think the errors are coming from updates to your used software?
[21:21] <\sh> LaserJock: or more a side-effect of new upgraded libs?
[21:21] <LaserJock> \sh: well, that I don't know
[21:22] <doko> slytherin: ohh, please fix
[21:22] <LaserJock> there have been so many Gnome updates I just don't know where to even begin
[21:23] <LaserJock> and I'm not sure if it's Gnome itself in the case of the network problems
[21:23] <slytherin> doko: The observation I have put in the bug ia based on analysis of source package. I don't have access to powerpc machine to verify.
[21:23] <\sh> LaserJock: because what I saw in the past was "we are upgrading libX" after that "app Y" doesn't work anymore, and the error message is just "can't connect to X display" even when it's set in the current session and I see my X running..very strange
[21:23] <doko> slytherin: well, it sounds plausible =)
[21:24] <slytherin> doko: ok, I will attach a debdiff in 5-10 minutes and let you know.
[21:24] <LaserJock> \sh: hmm, seems my laptop is 1280x800, perhaps that's why KDE seems so cramped
[21:25] <\sh> LaserJock: oh those 16:9 displays...I'm happy to got rid of this laptop I had...
[21:25] <slytherin> doko: just let me know if my understanding is correct i.e. jvmdir is the variable to be referred.
[21:25] <LaserJock> though Gnome seems noticeably better in terms of screen real estate
[21:25] <LaserJock> perhaps I just can't find the "shrink it all" switch in the KDE settings ;-)
[21:26] <\sh> LaserJock: ah this, ask Riddell because we simplified it *eg*
[21:26]  * \sh runs
[21:31] <didrocks> doko: Hi Matthias
[21:32] <didrocks> I do not understand very well your comment on the bug #203636
[21:32] <didrocks> do you want me to replace Depends: openjdk-6-jre | sun-java6-jre | j2re1.6 , libhiglayout-java, libwoodstox-java, , java-wrappers (>= 0.1.4)
[21:33] <didrocks> by Depends: default-jre-headless,
[21:33] <didrocks>  libhiglayout-java, libwoodstox-java, , java-wrappers (>= 0.1.4)
[21:33] <didrocks> for instance?
[21:36] <slytherin> didrocks: he meant to add dependency on 'default-jre | java2-runtime' instead of openjdk-6-jre | sun-javar-jre etc. I shuld have told you that myself. I overlooked. :-(
[21:38] <didrocks> slytherin: no pb. Indeed, I just removed the java-7 dependency. Ok, I will replace "openjdk-6-jre | sun-java6-jre | j2re1.6" by "default-jre | default-jre-headless", is it correct?
[21:39] <didrocks> ok, I see that on https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2008-July/000460.html
[21:40] <slytherin> didrocks: It is either 'default-jre | java2-runtime' or 'default-jre-headless | java2-runtime-headless'. Headless if the package does not any UI classes like AWT and SWING.
[21:40] <didrocks> yes, I am currently reading that. I will inspect the code to see if it needs it or not. More stuff to deal with so :)
[21:40] <didrocks> thanks a lot slytherin
[21:42] <doko> the point is, that we might have different jres/jdks on different archs, and just depending on openjdk gets you the wrong one one these archs
[21:43] <slytherin> doko: I have just added debdiff for the powerpc problem. Should I subscribe main-sponsors or are you are going to take care of it immediately?
[21:44] <didrocks> doko: yes, someone pointed me to the ML when you explained that. I must admit I forgot it…
[21:44] <didrocks> time to sleep, by all ;)
[22:27] <kirkland> pitti: BenC: either of you around?
[23:22] <TheMuso> pitti: Ok, I'll grab the latest daily today and investigate. If it still exists for me, I'll look into blacklisting the module, however I am concerned doing that will get rid of all PC speaker support in Ubuntu altogether, and people like myself still find the PC speaker useful sometimes, but if thats our only option...
[23:22] <TheMuso> kirkland: I'm around now.