[01:46] <emgent> night.
[02:09] <__iron> hi
[02:10] <__iron> could it be that linux ram-management have any failure ?
[02:17] <RAOF> __iron: Of course.  But I don't think this is the place to raise whatever question it is that you'll eventually raise.
[03:07] <bryce_> http://www.joshuazeidner.com/2008/02/ted-gould-svg-inkscape-and-web.html
[03:32] <genii> A few things about installing from debootstrap. 1 - root is enabled and has no password by default.   2 - no default users, no prompt to create one     3 - in kubuntu install, there seems no sound mixer backend
[03:40]  * genii puts on a pot of coffee before he leaves
[04:43] <wolfe> gee I need to get more involved in the fixing bugs or sending patches. :/
[04:47] <persia> wolfe: If you're bored, and want work to do, #ubuntu-motu is a good place to ask for tasks.
[04:47] <wolfe> ^_^ thanks
[04:48] <wolfe> I can't think of anything ubuntu needs program/gui wise :P since I know the the people working on said lacking programs already.
[04:49] <persia> wolfe: Well, personally, I'd like to see better drivers for Brain-Computer interfaces, and I don't know that anyone is working on a GUI to help tune those.  Mind you, the drivers need a lot of work first.
[04:58] <mneptok> persia: i have the actual IO working, but the calibration tools are somewhat lackluster
[04:59] <mneptok> "OH GOD! DON'T REFORMAT! I just wanted pancakes!"
[05:01] <persia> See, it's all about having good drivers, a good set of defaults, and some interface to help the user to avoid that sort of confusion.
[05:01] <mneptok> :)
[05:02]  * mneptok tootles off for home
[05:16] <wolfe> persia: send me a brain-computer interface and I'll work on drivers :P
[05:17] <persia> wolfe: That works.  Please email me your address and a quick summary showing that you can write input drivers.  I'll send it in about three weeks.
[05:17] <wolfe> heh, no exp sorry :P
[05:18] <persia> In that case, buy your own :p
[05:18] <wolfe> how much are the related devices?
[05:18] <persia> The good ones are a couple thousand euro, but you can also get kits for about 300 euro.
[05:18] <persia> Mostly serial interface, but hacking USB for a kit oughtn't be that bad.
[05:19] <wolfe> wouldn't a person want the highest quality interface device when writing a driver?
[05:19] <persia> There's some talk about consumer devices coming out soon for a couple hundred euros, but some of them are skin galvanic detectors, so really process muscle changes rather than brainwaves.
[05:20] <persia> Probably.  If anyone ever takes me up on the offer of writing a driver for one that works cleanly with X, I'd send them one of the ones approved for medical use in Germany.
[05:22] <wolfe> I'm guessin they all only work with Windows? :)
[05:22] <persia> Most of them only work with specialised software right now.  There's a couple generalised drivers for Windows (old versions) for mouse pointing and MIDI, and some simple linux drivers for MIDI.
[05:23] <persia> On the other hand, nobody seems to really believe that the devices exist, so most of the drivers are either made for specific sales niches (e.g. OCS's new skin galvinometer for improved game play in Vista) or research purposes.
[05:25] <wolfe> wouldn't the drivers need to be a type of processing engine? Do the devices send a converted data stream of raw data?
[05:27] <persia> Most of the devices seem to send some sort of waveform signal, so one has to do DSP, etc. to translate this into something useful.
[05:27] <persia> As different devices have a different number of sensors, they provide multiple streams of data.
[05:27] <wolfe> so its more than just knowing input device drivers... :)
[05:28] <persia> There are a couple standards for the data delivery, but nothing yet adopted industry-wide.
[05:29] <persia> Well, yes, but I figure anyone who actually wants the project is likely to ask useful questions and look up the devices a bit :)  Also, there are plenty of good tools for pulling digital signals from analog waveforms already available in Ubuntu.
[05:30] <persia> Also, it's a learning process: one probably doesn't want to trigger a mouse movement up based on the user's thought "up", but rather on some arbitrary signal, and to have a training GUI that helps users learn how to move the mouse, type, set focus to windows, etc.
[05:31] <persia> As there's already lots of code that does the basework, it's getting the existing drivers (of various sorts) mangled into the linux input event framework and putting together a training GUI that I see as the main problems remaining to be solved.
[05:32] <persia> As an example, if one looks at the MIDI driver, that controls 128 independent 7-bit axes, along with 128 possible event triggers, each with a corresponding optional 7-bit value (ignoring tricky stuff one can do with MIDI).
[05:33] <persia> This is more than one needs to handle a few mouse axes (W,X,Y,Z,Rw,Rx,Ry,Rz are all that the kernel defines), and some keys.
[05:34] <wolfe> *grin* you know it would be quite odd if someone were able to think a tune with an instrument selection and have the music pop on the screen.
[05:34] <persia> Supposedly, that works now, if one configures denemo and lilypond correctly for MIDI input, but I suspect it's a bit buggy.
[05:35] <wolfe> sorry, you said MIDI, I've been dinking around with making a video :P I hate not having a real 83+ keyboard
[05:36] <wolfe> persia: if someone wrote a driver, apple would take it and package it all up for use with Garageband and their other software, heh.
[05:36] <wolfe> >:/
[05:36] <wolfe> and I bet they wouldn't contribute anything back
[05:36] <persia> Well, that hasn't happened yet.
[05:38] <wolfe> persia: apple uses lots of open source software in osx though. When the main developer said "no" to Apple's request to relicense the libntfs library, that story seemed to make it large. Some people even said nasty things about the developer because he said no >:/
[05:38] <wolfe> since the libntfs filesystem library seems to be GPL
[05:40] <mneptok> Apple uses the BSD license
[05:40] <mneptok> Big Scary Duopoly
[05:40]  * wolfe likes the BSD license, but I like when people well... give back? :)
[05:40] <persia> wolfe: I don't really follow apple development, but I know that nobody ships BCI drivers with the default OS.
[05:41] <wolfe> I mean, sure... Apple contributes greatly to GCC. I dont see too much of apple giving app code out unlss its samples.
[05:41] <jamesh> or WebKit
[05:41] <wolfe> persia: brain comptuer interface?
[05:41] <persia> wolfe: Yes.
[05:42] <jamesh> [of course, with WebKit the original software license kind of forced their hand]
[05:44] <persia> Nifty.  Google just told me about a 16-lead EEG system with USB for only 1200 USD (http://www.contecmed.com/cart/product_show.asp?id=47).  Perhaps I have the pricing wrong (because I was only looking at prebuilt headsets).
[05:45] <wolfe> persia: isn't there anything well.. headset like around that price?
[05:45] <persia> wolfe: I've not seen it actually shipping yet, but I don't follow as closely as in the past.
[05:45] <wolfe> I suppose people would still have to use electrode glue on a headset as well to get the best contact possible..
[05:46] <persia> This is probably why skin galvinometers are becoming more popular.
[05:47] <wolfe> persia: you don't want to shave your head bald to use an input device so you don't have to wash your hair out every time you use the computer? :)
[05:48] <persia> wolfe: I suppose.  I'm happy with only a couple electrodes, and I'd shave my temples and skull base for that.
[05:49]  * slangasek reads the last few lines of scrollback, and starts squinting upwards to check whether we're talking about tasps
[05:50] <persia> No.  It's brain -> computer.  tasps are more about computer -> brain.
[05:54] <wolfe> I didn't realize there was so much consumer software out there for BI devices
[05:54] <wolfe> BCI
[05:54] <wolfe> BioExplorer looks interesting
[05:54] <wolfe> persia: do you know much on this device? http://www.transparentcorp.com/products/eeg/pendant.php
[05:54] <persia> Yeah, there's a fair bit, but not yet something where I can plug in a list of supported devices, and use my computer without my hands.
[05:55] <wolfe> pendant device for 600USD..
[05:55] <wolfe> without software or electrodes
[05:55] <persia> No, I hadn't hear about that.  That's well into reasonable pricing.  Thanks for the link!  It's only 2-electrode, but one can still do a lot with that.
[05:58] <wolfe> persia: seems so :) the BioEra package, the open source one, has a little game you can drive around in a car.
[05:58]  * persia celebrates another convert to the school of thought that DWIM oughtn't really be that hard to implement
[05:59] <wolfe> *grin*
[06:02] <wolfe> persia: what I'd love to see is an actual device like that pendant which can just be worn on the head but in a not so obvious fashion. I can think of a thousand different tasks I'd love to do if there was software making system administration really easy.
[06:02] <wolfe> :( wishful thinking
[06:03] <StevenK> wolfe: Sure, and then you think 'rm -rf /' and it executes it
[06:03] <persia> wolfe: The trick is to tape the electrodes to your HMD, so nobody can see that it's not the audio feed.
[06:04] <dholbach> good morning
[06:04] <persia> (and there are "covert" HMDs that fit in mirrorshades: Oakley even sells a pair)
[06:04] <wolfe> StevenK: I've plenty of self control, especially to not open a new email to swear at an employee and send..
[06:04] <wolfe> *googles*
[06:05] <dholbach> fabbione: good morning - how are you doing?
[06:06] <dholbach> do you think you could take a look at bug 259579 when you have the time?
[06:11] <fabbione> dholbach: hey.. barely awake :)
[06:11]  * dholbach hugs fabbione
[06:11]  * dholbach gets more coffee himself
[06:12]  * fabbione hugs dholbach 
[06:15] <LaserJock> dholbach: how often are the (sponsoring) and (patches) refreshed on Harvest?
[06:15] <dholbach> LaserJock: you need to ask bdmurray - the harvest scripts run every hour and check if there's anything new
[06:16] <LaserJock> hmm
[06:16] <LaserJock> I was actually using it today but nothing has left the list :(
[06:17] <persia> dholbach: See, this is why every set of opportunities ought have a homepage: so feed admins can be more clearly identified.
[06:17] <dholbach> persia: I never disagreed with having it - right now I just don't the time :-/
[06:18] <dholbach> but it shouldn't be too hard to do
[06:20] <persia> dholbach: Understood :)
[06:36] <Suckit_> halöle
[07:18] <fabbione> who is archive admin today?
[07:24] <jpds> fabbione: seb according to the wiki: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveAdministration
[07:26] <fabbione> jpds: thanks
[07:45] <TheMuso> ?C
[07:45] <TheMuso> ?C
[07:45] <TheMuso> ugh stuck keys
[09:35] <asac> ArneGoetje: can you please disable the cron job that updates langpacks? ... tomorrow there will be a change that will break mozilla translations - which Ill have to fix first.
[09:39] <wgrant> asac: What does NM mean by "Automatic (VPN) addresses only"?
[09:41] <ArneGoetje> asac: it is disabled. the current ones are still in -proposed
[09:48] <soren> dholbach: Hey.. Could you test another kvm thing for me?
[10:01] <dholbach> soren: sure
[10:09] <tseliot> Riddell: is it a known problem that the menus of QT4 applications are not visible? See this screenshot: http://albertomilone.com/menus.jpg
[10:09] <tseliot> Riddell: I'm using GNOME
[10:12] <Riddell> tseliot: nope
[10:12] <Riddell> not seen that
[10:12] <Riddell> tseliot: only time I've seen that problem was in pyKDE applications for 4.0
[10:13] <Riddell> but designer isn't pyKDE
[10:14] <tseliot> Riddell: I can reproduce the problem only with QT4 apps (such as eric) but not with KDE4 apps (such as Kompare)
[10:16] <Riddell> tseliot: presumably if you run it with -style=plastique it doesn't have a problem?
[10:16] <tseliot> Riddell: no, it's only the Oxygen style that causes the problem
[10:16] <tseliot> Riddell: QtCurve or Cleanlooks work well
[10:35] <Ng> asac: ooh, much win, I have a working openvpn connection :D
[10:39] <wgrant> I finally got VPN plugins working with NM0.7 tonight - it took a few reboots... is that intentional/known?
[10:41] <geser> sounds like windows, reboot till it works :)
[10:47] <wgrant> geser: That is why I brought it up. It was horrifyingly like Windows.
[10:50] <ogra> seb128, my evo shows me 5 unread mails in Trash since yesterday (there are definately none) and one in Junk since this morning ...
[10:51] <ogra> do you have anything open about that ?
[10:51] <seb128> known issue
[10:51] <ogra> oki
[10:51] <seb128> no bug upstream knows about it so no need to create launchpad noise
[10:51] <ogra> good, thanks
[10:55] <Ng> asac: hmm, so I am connected and stuff, but nm-openvpn-service is now eating a whole core :/
[10:56] <Ng> it seems to be tightly looping on poll()s on some sockets
[10:57] <Ng> and even after disconnecting, it's still doing it :/
[10:57] <Ng> oh, now it stopped
[11:00] <YokoZar> You know, I was just thinking that it would have been really neat if the first Ubuntu release were named adjective animal
[11:00]  * YokoZar is editing the wikipedia article
[11:02] <Ng> YokoZar: warty warthog wasn't adjective animal?
[11:03] <YokoZar> Ng: No, I mean "adjective animal" as a release name ;)
[11:03] <Ng> ah
[11:03] <YokoZar> That way we'd have started alphabetical.  And been cute from the getgo
[11:04] <asac> wgrant: not sure. where do you read that?
[11:04] <slangasek> kirkland: <sigh> well, I'm almost ready to upload, aside from a slight bug that causes /etc/pam.d/common-* to be filled with endless duplicated lines
[11:04] <asac> Ng: cool. (not the core eating thign)
[11:04] <slangasek> kirkland: I'll have to fix that in the morning :/
[11:04] <Ng> asac: at least it works, I'll check out the CPU usage thing later
[11:05] <asac> Ng: which process is eating the cpu`
[11:05] <asac> ?
[11:05] <Ng> asac: nm-openvpn-service
[11:06] <Ng> strace showed it doing poll() and read() and nothing else
[11:06] <YokoZar> I was about to write "using an adjective and an animal alliteration" only to discover that that, too, is a long-ass alliteration
[11:06] <asac> Ng: so either looping thing or hard-crypto?
[11:06] <wgrant> asac: IPv4 Settings when creating a VPN.
[11:07] <Ng> asac: I'd be surprised if it takes a whole core of a core2duo to do the encryption and LZO. Also, doesn't "read(4, "", 1024)" imply that it didn't read anything?
[11:08] <asac> wgrant: "addresses only" means that you will only get the addresses from VPN ;)
[11:08] <asac> wgrant: e.g. you set dns + search domains manually
[11:08] <asac> wgrant: not sure about routes
[11:08] <wgrant> asac: Ahh. I think that could be made more clear.
[11:09] <wgrant> (DNS servers are still addresses...)
[11:09] <asac> wgrant: well. that text was just changed to that ;)
[11:09] <asac> because users complained that nobody knows what a DNS is  ;)
[11:12] <wgrant> I think it should be radio buttons, as it just affects those two lower widgets. Somewhat like how Windows XP does it.
[11:24] <Ng> asac: that config dialog certainly isn't easy to use, but it's perfect for power users
[11:24] <Ng> the routes bit works fine, I can tell it to ignore automatic routes and just set one for the /24 of the VPN network with a higher metric than the default dev route
[11:25] <kaushal> hi
[11:25] <kaushal> I am using Network Manager to connect to openvpn
[11:25] <kaushal> every time i need to connect to openvpns server i need to add
[11:25] <kaushal> sudo ip route add 10.0.0.0/8 via 10.10.50.12 dev tap0
[11:26] <Ng> kaushal: which version of NM?
[11:26] <kaushal> Ng: nm-applet 0.6.6
[11:28] <Ng> kaushal: hmm, mine was ok when I set the "Only use VPN for these addresses" option and gave 10.8.0.0/24 in the settings for the VPN
[11:28] <kaushal> Ng: where can i find openvpn client configs using Network Manager
[11:29] <Ng> kaushal: (btw this is offtopic for #ubuntu-devel).
[11:30] <kaushal> Ng: I am aware of it
[11:30] <kaushal> if you can help me where can i look out for help
[11:40] <ogra> Riddell, can yu acces wiki.kubuntu.org atm ?
[11:41] <ogra> (i dont get response from wiki.edubuntu.org and kubuntu seems to be the same here)
[11:45] <fabbione> seb128: ping?
[11:45] <seb128> hi fabbione
[11:45] <fabbione> hey dude
[11:46] <fabbione> seb128: i saw you are the archive admin of the day ;)
[11:46] <fabbione> seb128: do you have 2 minutes?
[11:46] <seb128> yes
[11:46] <fabbione> awesome
[11:46] <fabbione> seb128: main src package openais has been splitted by upstream in 2 source packages.
[11:47] <fabbione> i have the split ready.. just need to know if:
[11:47] <fabbione> - new source need an official SRU (code is the same as it was before the split and it's already in main)
[11:47] <fabbione> - do you prefer a normal upload or copy from ppa?
[11:47] <fabbione> - there are 3 new binaries, but i am sure that's not a problem at all
[11:47] <seb128> fabbione: s/SRU/MIR?
[11:48] <fabbione> whops
[11:48] <fabbione> yes MIR sorry
[11:48]  * fabbione is not exactly awake today
[11:48] <seb128> no need of a new MIR
[11:48] <fabbione> ok
[11:48] <seb128> normal upload please
[11:48] <fabbione> ok
[11:48] <seb128> and the new binaries are no issue ;-)
[11:48] <fabbione> indeed ;)
[11:48]  * fabbione executes seb128's orders
[11:48]  * seb128 hugs fabbione
[11:48] <Riddell> seb128: done with syncs for now?
[11:49] <seb128> Riddell: yes, it's all yours
[11:49] <seb128> Riddell: thanks for not doing those yesterday :-p
[11:49] <seb128> had to do over one hundred of those ;-)
[11:50] <Riddell> seb128: I left you an empty new queue!
[11:51] <seb128> ok, that's a fair deal then ;-)
[11:53] <fabbione> seb128: all done
[11:53] <fabbione> Subject: New: corosync 0.91-0ubuntu2 (source)
[11:53] <fabbione> this is the new source that will spit the 3 new packages
[11:53] <fabbione> the other uploads (openais and redhat-cluster) will just go dep-wait till corosync is sorted
[11:54] <seb128> fabbione: cool
[11:54] <seb128> will do the newing
[11:54] <fabbione> seb128: thanks a lot for your help
[11:54] <fabbione> next major change is going to be the redhat-cluster SONAME
[11:54] <fabbione> but not today
[11:54]  * fabbione needs to do that upstream first
[12:09] <siretart> seb128: hey there. Thanks for processing bug #259288, but you didn't think the latest version (and the version I requested)
[12:13] <kaushal> where can i get help regarding Network Manager
[12:14] <directhex> what's the correct procedure for adding a package which requires itself to compile to the archive?
[12:14] <cjwatson> ScottK: you reverted the dget change I sponsored saying that it's only needed to work around a PPA-related bug. I disagree - surely it's useful if you happen to have a URL to a .dsc on launchpadlibrarian.net, regardless of whether it's in a PPA
[12:15] <cjwatson> ScottK: and even if it's a PPA bug it seems useful to work around it for the moment
[12:16]  * cjwatson takes it to the bug
[12:20] <sistpoty|work> infinity: in particular, directhex wants to add vbnc to ubuntu (VB .net compiler, written in... VB.net)... maybe you have some hints?
[12:24] <directhex> meanwhile, i still need to get write access to the appropriate section of the alioth svn repo the packaging work is stored in
[12:31] <NCommander> directhex, is this the Visual Basic mono compiler?
[12:31] <directhex> NCommander, aye
[12:31] <NCommander> If memory serves, isn't the only way to build that from scratch is use a binary of the VBC, or use Microsoft's visual basic?
[12:31] <directhex> NCommander, aye.
[12:32] <NCommander> (I would cite for the record that are packages in Ubuntu that require themselves to exist to be bootstrapped)
[12:32] <directhex> NCommander, orig.tar.gz ships with a vbnc.exe for bootstrapping
[12:32] <NCommander> gnat, gdc, mono itself used to
[12:33] <NCommander> Well, if its vbnc.exe, then isn't it by definition a .NET app?
[12:33] <directhex> yep
[12:34] <directhex> NCommander, i just want a definitive answer to the question "should the source package use bootstrap binaries, or should it depend on itself" - and if the latter, what's the procedure?
[12:34] <NCommander> The later is what's used in Debian
[12:34] <NCommander> It involves someone manually building the package for that architecture and uploading it though
[12:34] <NCommander> *did it for GNAT on m68k)
[12:34] <NCommander> multiverse allows for binaries
[12:35] <NCommander> Its probably best if you package the binary of the vb compiler, with the depends on mono, and then have the mono vb package depend on that, or itself
[12:35] <NCommander> That way it can also bootstrap itself automatically on new architectures
[12:35] <directhex> well it's a managed app, so it's arch:all
[12:36] <NCommander> Right :-P
[12:36] <NCommander> Well, you could put the binaries in multiverse, upload the compiler to universe, then request removal of the original one if the archive admins can't add a binary directory to the repo.
[12:36] <sistpoty|work> actually it's best to have the final packaging build-depend on itself (as soon as its bootstrapped)
[12:36] <NCommander> That's the Debian policy
[12:36] <NCommander> AFAIK
[12:37] <sistpoty|work> and in regards to bootstrapping, it's best to ask a buildd-admin for help (that's why I referred to you here)
[12:37] <directhex> it's *really* not hard to do either. i just need direction
[12:37] <directhex> i'll build both now. a self-bootstrapping and a self-depending package
[12:37] <NCommander> Your dedication to mono is amazing ;-)
[12:38] <directhex> i like the technology, and i dislike the blanket "use suse" response handed out in official channels whenever debbuntu isn't behaving 100%
[12:38] <directhex> oersonally VB makes me vomit, but some people need it badly
[12:38] <seb128> siretart: fixed now
[12:40] <NCommander> My solution is to convert VB.NET apps to C#
[12:40] <NCommander> THere really isn't that much difference between the two
[12:40] <directhex> NCommander, nice solution!
[12:40] <directhex> NCommander, i could run monodis on vbnc.exe, then depend on ilasm...
[12:40] <NCommander> directhex, there are automated tools that require it
[12:41] <NCommander> er, do that
[12:41] <NCommander> wait
[12:41] <NCommander> what O_O?
[12:41] <NCommander> Your going to convert the compiler to C# .... and then have it build itself?!
[12:41] <NCommander> *twich*
[12:42] <directhex> NCommander, nah, i like the depend-on-self solution
[12:42] <NCommander> then what was the nice solution?
[12:42] <directhex> NCommander, but someone somewhere needs vbnc in $PATH for the package to build
[12:42] <NCommander> ... I feel like I'm missing something in context
[12:42] <directhex> NCommander, the nice solution was some prpopsed evil to work around shipping "binaries"
[12:43] <NCommander> Well, you could covert the compiler to bootstrap itself, and then recompile it
[12:44] <sistpoty|work> directhex: I suggest that you start with the depend on self solution, get the package reviewed and we'll fiddle with bootstrapping issues once its in the archive, ok?
[12:44] <sistpoty|work> (once the source is in the archive even)
[12:44] <NCommander> how can I help?
[12:45] <sistpoty|work> NCommander: review the package for example ;)
[12:45] <NCommander> How do I do that O_o?, I'm no MOTU
[12:46] <sistpoty|work> NCommander: anyone can comment on revu (unless you broke that :P)
[12:46] <NCommander> probably :-)
[12:47] <cjwatson> directhex: definitely don't do bootstrap binaries - talk with infinity to get a manual bootstrap done
[12:50] <siretart> seb128: thanks!
[12:50] <seb128> siretart: np, sorry for syncing the wrong version before
[12:50] <NCommander> directhex, I was referring to if I must compile a VB.NET app on linux before the advent of the VB.NET compiler
[12:51] <directhex> ick. messy
[12:59] <raphink> NCommander: actually, rewiewing is a good training to become a MOTU
[13:00] <NCommander> I can't comment on REVU without a package getting marked needs-work :-/
[13:00] <raphink> no?
[13:02] <NCommander> I'm a REVU admin, which also marks me an MOTU in revu's database, regardless of the truth
[13:07] <raphink> hmmm not really
[13:07] <raphink> the REVU db doesn't know about MOTU and non MOTU iirc
[13:08] <raphink> it knows about uploaders, reviewers and REVU admins
[13:08] <raphink> you're a MOTU if you belong to the MOTU group on LP
[13:09] <huats> does anyone has ever seen a mann file (with 2 n)... ?
[13:26] <cjwatson> huats: tcl used to do that
[13:26] <cjwatson> huats: nowadays it tends to be man3/foo.3tcl.gz instead
[13:26] <cjwatson> huats: the list of valid man sections, technically, goes 1-9 l n o
[13:26] <cjwatson> huats: but we only use 1-9 nowadays
[13:27] <huats> cjwatson: ok
[13:27] <huats> cjwatson: because I am packaging a tcl lib
[13:27] <huats> and I have a mann dir with a foo.n
[13:28] <huats> so it is the man page :)
[13:28] <cjwatson> /usr/share/doc/man-db/man-db-manual.txt.gz documents it as "new [obsolete]"
[13:28] <huats> ok
[13:30] <huats> cjwatson: so do you think I might not include it ?
[13:38] <directhex> dpkg-deb: building package `mono-vbnc' in `../mono-vbnc_1.9+dfsg-0ubuntu1_all.deb'.
[13:39] <cjwatson> huats: it should go in /usr/share/man/man3/foo.3tcl.gz instead
[13:39] <ScottK> cjwatson: I just replied in the bug.  I'm sorry for doing something that felt abrupt.  Details in the bug.
[13:40] <cjwatson> ok, thanks
[13:46] <tkamppeter> ion_, hi
[13:47] <ion_> Hi tkamppeter
[13:51] <cjwatson> soren: FYI, that tasksel change of mine does work as far as it goes, but there's some complicated cdebconf bug that makes the display completely wrong
[13:53] <tkamppeter> Ion_, I have seen your http://heh.fi/tmp/cups/01-adobe-ps. This is for the Debian SVN?
[13:53] <cjwatson> soren: (specifically, I get the text of debian-installer/dummy rather than of tasksel/first, although the text for tasksel/first in templates.dat is correct afterwards
[13:56] <ion_> tkamppeter: Yes, but it’s not fully working yet, because i haven’t managed to produce a .types file that recognizes the DRMed PS files as other than application/postscript. I will make a version of the patch for Ubuntu CUPS as soon as the Debian svn patch is ready.
[13:57] <ion_> tkamppeter: priority(200) didn’t affect it, and i didn’t get around to figuring out why yet.
[13:59] <soren> cjwatson: Um.. Ok :) Sounds like fun.
[14:01] <tkamppeter> ion_, for me every PS file was detected as DRMed (without your patch).
[14:01] <ion_> tkamppeter: Huh. Strange.
[14:24] <tkamppeter> ion_, it seems that the CUPS auto-typing is somewhat buggy and we must find a workaround to distinguish between DRMed and non DRMed PS.
[14:29] <ion_> tkamppeter: Yeah
[14:30] <ion_> tkamppeter: One alternative would be just processing *all* postscript files with the filter. ;-) The gawk script is fast, it wouldn’t be much of a performance hit.
[14:30] <ion_> tkamppeter: But yeah, it would be best to fix the detection.
[14:35] <tkamppeter> ion_, so we should pass all through the filter for now and report a bug against CUPS about the broken auto-detection-
[14:37] <ion_> tkamppeter: Well, on my box, nothing passes through it.
[14:38] <ion_> tkamppeter: To make everything pass through it deterministically, we probably should change the /etc/cups/mime.types application/postscript entry to say application/x-noredistillps.
[14:39] <tkamppeter> ion_, more or less like that
[14:41] <tkamppeter> yes exactly that, rename application/postscript to application/x-noredistillps and create a new application/postscript without autodetection rule.
[14:41] <tkamppeter> Add a .convs rule converting application/x-noredistillps to application/postscript with your script
[14:42] <tkamppeter> This will stay this way until the CUPS bug is fixed.
[14:43] <ion_> tkamppeter: I’ll update my patch, a moment.
[14:48] <Mithrandir> is it just for me that firefox 3.0.1 in hardy (amd64) is hanging so much it's completely unusable?
[14:48] <directhex> only with nspluginwrapper, IME
[14:49] <Mithrandir> no such thing installed here.
[14:49] <ogra> nspluginwrapper should exactly achieve the opposite
[14:49] <ogra> (make ff not hang on flash sites)
[14:50] <directhex> ogra, generally it does. usually it makes any instances of flash just disappear. like magic!
[14:51] <directhex> it's like flashblock, only more reliable
[14:52] <maswan> Mithrandir: It was for the brief period I had either flash or java in the browser, but when I got rid fo them things started working just fine
[14:52] <Mithrandir> maswan: I have neither, so I have no idea why it seems to hang every now and then.  For something like 30s.
[14:55] <asac> lifeless: http://benjamin.smedbergs.us/blog/2008-04-17/reviewing-merges-in-mercurial/ ... interesting POV imo .... what can bzr do to help reviewing the actual merge-changes done?
[15:02] <ion_> tkamppeter: Updated the patch, building CUPS now to test.
[15:20] <vikram> init-top in initrd, is that called before /sbin/init or just after?
[15:21] <BenC> Ok, I've had enough of evo eating my inbox now...
[15:22] <BenC> Who's responsible for evo so I can get this fixed, ASAP?
[15:22] <vikram> haha,
[15:22] <vikram> you're talking about evolution?
[15:22] <BenC> yep
[15:22] <vikram> i was faithful to that @#$%^ for 6yrs
[15:22] <BenC> I've been using it for 3, and it never screwed me over till now
[15:22] <vikram> i'm a much happier person after moving to thunderbird
[15:23] <vikram> +sunbird
[15:23] <BenC> I'm think it's a 64-bit issue, else more people would have noticed
[15:23] <tkamppeter> ion_, there must also be a line only containing
[15:23] <tkamppeter> application)/postscript
[15:23] <tkamppeter> application/postscript
[15:23] <ogra> BenC, it works fine for me on x86 here
[15:23] <ogra> i only had minor issues this time
[15:24] <ogra> BenC, seb128 maintains it for us
[15:24] <tkamppeter> in /etc/cups/mime.types, to define application/postscript
[15:24] <BenC> ogra: x86-32? I'm on -64 :)
[15:24] <BenC> seb128: ping
[15:24] <seb128> hi
[15:24] <ogra> are you up to date ? there were some fixes recently
[15:24] <seb128> what evolution-data-server version do you use?
[15:25] <BenC> seb128: 2.23.90.1-0ubuntu1
[15:25] <seb128> and what is the issue?
[15:25] <seb128> using local boxes, imap, other?
[15:25] <BenC> seb128: I get weird things like Junk folder and Trash folder highlighted like that have new mail in them...when I empty it all, it shows -X in the status
[15:25] <BenC> seb128: local mboxes
[15:26] <BenC> seb128: in my Inbox, it keeps zeroing out my mail (not the stuff flagged as Junk or Trash)
[15:26] <BenC> seb128: confirmed with mutt
[15:26] <seb128> urg
[15:26] <seb128> 2.23.90 had issue that should be fixed in 2.23.90.1
[15:27] <seb128> did you restart evolution since the update?
[15:27] <BenC> seb128: I removed everything from ~/.evolution/mail/local/ (backed it up) and started fresh, and it keeps happening
[15:28] <BenC> seb128: the .1 update was installed yesterday, and I've done "evolution --force-shutdown" about 10 times since then
[15:29] <seb128> (on the phone)
[15:32] <ogra> BenC, its a kernel issue ... you simply forgot to modprobe evolution :P
[15:34]  * BenC modprobe chuckle
[15:40] <ion_> tkamppeter: A moment still, the conversion still failed with one of my test PS files.
[15:43] <seb128> re
[15:44] <BenC> seb128: For instance, on a fresh restart, after deleting all indexes and cmeta, Trash shows 858 deleted, but when I ^A, it shows only 429 selected
[15:44] <seb128> BenC: the junk and trash count issues is a known bug and is being worked upstream, it's mostly cosmetic though
[15:44] <seb128> right, trash count is broken
[15:45] <BenC> seb128: Ok, then corrupting my Inbox is the main issue...sometimes it shows dupes of every email (and double count) and sometimes it zeroes out all of my messages (headers remain)
[15:46] <BenC> seb128: usually this happens in combination with emptying Junk and/or Trash, which is why I associated the count bug with it
[15:46] <ion_> tkamppeter: Huh. This fails: /usr/lib/cups/filter/psadobedrmtops <printoutput.ps | /usr/bin/ps2pdf13 -dAutoRotatePages=/None -dAutoFilterColorImages=false -dColorImageFilter=/FlateEncode -dNOPLATFONTS -dWRITESYSTEMDICT - /dev/null
[15:47] <BenC> seb128: I've tried pruning my Inbox by hand (with mutt), and it still will end up corrupted somehow
[15:47] <ion_> tkamppeter: This works: /usr/lib/cups/filter/psadobedrmtops <printoutput.ps >foo.ps; /usr/bin/ps2pdf13 -dAutoRotatePages=/None -dAutoFilterColorImages=false -dColorImageFilter=/FlateEncode -dNOPLATFONTS -dWRITESYSTEMDICT foo.ps /dev/null
[15:47] <sistpoty|work> BenC: disk/partition full? (or did evo copy some code of kmail there *g*)?
[15:47] <BenC> disk has 80Gigs free
[15:48] <BenC> seb128: not sure if this is pertinent, but on console I keep seeing this: (evolution:25371): camel-WARNING **: Error during searching SELECT uid FROM 'Templates' WHERE ((deleted  = 1) and ((deleted != 1) and (junk  = 1))): no such table: Templates
[15:48] <BenC> seb128: same message for Outbox
[15:48] <ion_> tkamppeter: Should i just make the pstopdf filter collect the document to a tempfile before processing if it comes from stdin?
[15:51] <seb128> BenC: well, the corruption issue is exactly why evolution-data-server 2.23.90.1 has been rolled and other users confirmed it fixes the issue for them, did you upgrade all the libe* too?
[15:52] <BenC> seb128: I did a full update just before msg'ing you
[15:52] <tkamppeter> ion_, are you intending to put your new DRM filter into pstopdf? This is also a possibility, as the change is only needed for converting the PS to PDF.
[15:52] <ion_> tkamppeter: Hmm, good idea. I’ll do that.
[15:54] <seb128> BenC: can you make sure there is evolution* process running, start a new evolution and tell me what you do to get a corruption
[15:54] <BenC> seb128: I made a mistake....1 update just got installed this morning...let me make sure I can reproduce the corruption still
[15:54] <seb128> BenC: when you do get a corruption are mails displayed as "?"
[15:54] <BenC> seb128: yes, mails were display as "?"
[15:54] <seb128> that's definitively what 2.23.90.1 should fix
[15:55] <BenC> seb128: right now I can't empty my trash :)
[15:55] <seb128> right, trash is known to be broken
[15:55] <seb128> they are having a hard time to get the summary disk issues fixed and focussed on the important ones first
[15:56] <seb128> trash and counts should be fixed for next week
[16:36] <ion_> tkamppeter: This seems to work. http://heh.fi/patches/cups/01-adobe-ps
[16:36] <tkamppeter> ion_, with DRM handling in pstopdf no extra mime type needs to be defined.
[16:38] <ion_> tkamppeter: If that looks okay to you, i can make the Ubuntu patch.
[16:38] <ion_> kopfgeldjaeger: Thanks a lot for the information!
[16:39] <tkamppeter> ion_, is OK, go ahead with the Ubuntu patch.
[16:39] <Kopfgeldjaeger> if you're talkin 'bout the "* Kopfi|offline is now know as Kopfgeldjaeger" - I use a bnc, so it's not more information than "* Kopfgeldjaeger has joined #ubuntu-devel"
[16:44] <ogra> seb128, i'm playing with evo in a mobile setup atm ... do you think it would be possible to get a (gconf switchable) button added for the "goto next unread mail" function ? its kind of tricky to use evo without keyboard
[16:46] <ogra> (not urgent or important, just somethng i think about/play with atm)
[16:46] <seb128> why not
[16:46] <seb128> I'll not work on it though
[16:47] <ogra> well, its something i'd like to see upstream indeed :)
[16:50] <ion_> tkamppeter: http://heh.fi/patches/cups-ubuntu/01-adobe-ps
[17:00] <ion_> tkamppeter: Hmm. Could -dWRITESYSTEMDICT pose a security problem? I wonder if it actually allows PostScript to turn off SAFER... Do you know any ghostscript folks?
[17:01] <ion_> Upstream, that is.
[17:02] <ion_> tkamppeter: We still could just remove the DRM section, that would be easiest. :-P
[17:08] <ion_> tkamppeter: Hey, we could prepend the lines with comment characters! That isn’t removing. ;-)
[17:12] <Chipzz> ion_: good luck getting the court convinced of that ;)
[17:18] <tkamppeter> ion_, you can discuss the -dWRITESYSTEMDICT stuff on #ghostscript here on FreeNode. This is the channel of GS upstream.
[17:53] <BenC> seb128: so far so good since the .1 update
[17:53] <BenC> seb128: guess my timeline of when I updated to that was a little off
[17:54] <seb128> BenC: ok good, let me know if you have any other issue, the trash and counts issue are known and being worked
[18:00] <ebel> Several applications install in the menu as "$NAME $TYPE" (eg "Firefox Web Browser" vs just "Firefox"). Is this a formal ubuntu guideline? or is there a name for this kind of name format?
[18:01] <seb128> ebel: it's upstream choice
[18:02] <ebel> OK. I thought this had something to do with the Egoless desktop and all that good stuff
[18:04] <ion_> tkamppeter: http://heh.fi/patches/cups/01-adobe-ps
[18:09] <tkamppeter> ion_, so ps2ps generates new PostScript out of the input and this makes the DRM disappear?
[18:10] <ion_> tkamppeter: Yep.
[18:10] <ion_> tkamppeter: ps2ps is much slower than the gawk script, but this solution doesn’t pose any security problems such as -dWRITESYSTEMDICT.
[18:12] <tkamppeter> Ion_, so the DRMed files will print but slowly. With up to 4 times a renderer running: ps2ps and ps2pdf in pstopdf and pdftops and Ghostscript in foomatic-rip.
[18:12] <tkamppeter> But it works.
[18:12] <ion_> tkamppeter: Yep
[18:19] <ion_> tkamppeter: Is that patch ok?
[18:22] <stgraber> superm1: So the new fglrx still doesn't work with our X server ?
[18:23] <superm1> stgraber, define "new".  was there an 8-8 release that i didn't hear about yet?
[18:23] <superm1> stgraber, 8-7 still doesn't work
[18:23] <stgraber> superm1: 8.8
[18:23] <stgraber> superm1: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_catalyst_evolution&num=1
[18:23] <stgraber> "What this release lacks though is X Server 1.5 / X.Org 7.4 support or and any improvements for WINE performance."
[18:24] <superm1> stgraber, <shrug>
[18:24] <superm1> well this is getting bad then
[18:24] <stgraber> I understand that as "Will still break with Intrepid"
[18:24] <stgraber> yeah, I don't really like waiting one more month, we are getting close to the release then with still no working driver for ATI ...
[18:24] <ion_> tkamppeter: Removed the mention about gawk from the changelog, updated the Ubuntu patch.
[18:25] <superm1> stgraber, well at very worst it can be brought in as an SRU, but that would be quite nasty to have to do
[18:25] <superm1> stgraber, at least "proper" 2.6.26 support got added around, so that's half the battle
[18:26] <stgraber> how easily can we workaround X to have that missing function ?
[18:26] <superm1> stgraber, i'm not sure.  will have to ask bryce i suppose
[18:26] <superm1> i'm not sure how critical that symbol ends up being
[18:28] <stgraber> let's hope it's possible to fix it that way, I don't like the idea of releasing without fglrx and have it being an SRU. it's the kind of thing we need to be tested before a release ...
[18:28] <superm1> stgraber, well at least for now, jockey isn't depending on the modaliases since it's broke - but this will make a horrible upgrade scenario indeed for people going hardy->intrepid otherwise
[18:29] <superm1> stgraber, i'll upload the new version at least so it's there
[18:34] <slangasek> kirkland: ok, /now/ it's uploaded \o/
[18:34] <kirkland> slangasek: cool, thanks!
[18:35] <slangasek> kirkland: in the implementation process, I made a couple of changes to the config file format for simplicity's sake; please check the examples in debian/pam-configs/ within the package
[18:35] <kirkland> slangasek: k
[18:35] <slangasek> (which is also available from lp:~ubuntu-core-dev/pam/ubuntu)
[18:38] <bryce> superm1, stgraber: well, if the September release works, we can probably get that in post-FF.  We've done that before.  Patching X to include the missing symbol is of course possible, but could be tricky (unless someone has already developed a patch)
[18:39] <jcristau> superm1, stgraber: miZeroLineScreenIndex is not coming back, fwiw
[18:39] <superm1> bryce, do you know if anyone has investigated the feasibility of the patching possibly from the fedora side?  They've had this for a long time
[18:39] <superm1> ah
[18:40] <bryce> superm1: nope I've not looked.  I did ask ATI about it last week
[18:40] <jcristau> well unless you undo the devprivates rework in the x server
[18:40] <jcristau> but, that sounds like pain
[18:40] <stgraber> bryce: the september release will likely be the week of the beta freeze, so we'd have less than a month to test it and make sure it works with everything (suspend/resume and other funny things) ... :(
[18:40] <superm1> bryce, what did they indicate?  maybe a hotfix driver sooner would be possible hopefully?
[18:43] <jcristau> (you'd presumably also have to undo pci-rework, which, eh, would pretty much mean reverting to x 1.4)
[18:43] <bryce> stgraber: yeah I know it's risky...  maybe we can prepare to do some thorough testing once it's out.  In worst case, we can always pull and revert if it shows too many regressions.
[18:44] <bryce> superm1: I don't know what I can say giving that NDA
[18:44] <superm1> bryce, oh right
[18:46] <stgraber> bryce: are we sure it'll be fixed in next month release ?
[18:47] <bryce> let's just say I'm really looking forward to 1.5 finally getting *officially* released
[18:48] <bryce> stgraber: I hope so but don't think we can count on it; we'll need to test it once it's available and make the decision then
[18:49] <bryce> I talk to ATI again next week, so will ask again there
[18:50] <anilg> ﻿anyone know the command to check all the files installed by a package that was installed by apt-get?
[18:50] <anilg> i want the list of all the files installed by say package 'pidgin'
[18:50] <Chipzz> anilg: wrong channel
[18:50] <sbeattie> dpkg -L pidgin
[18:51] <anilg> Chipzz: sorry.. off to #ubuntu
[18:54] <tjaalton> what choice is there if fglrx 8-9 does finally support xserver 1.5? upload and cross your fingers..
[18:55] <tjaalton> stgraber: and testing a blob sounds strange, since we can't fix it anyway
[18:55] <superm1> tjaalton, there are integration pieces that need to be tested though, eg into jockey
[18:55] <superm1> and whether it should be offered to people
[18:56] <tjaalton> superm1: well, that
[18:56] <stgraber> tjaalton: IIRC with hardy some things were workarounded for the suspend-to-ram, like saving the video state or similar stuff (I don't know much about that)
[18:56] <tjaalton> superm1: but isn't that already done with the current (broken) driver?
[18:56] <superm1> tjaalton, for what could be tested with it, yes
[18:57] <superm1> jockey still doesn't depend on it's modaliases so as to not break more boxes right now
[18:57] <superm1> and there were little things that popped up as possible issues, such as when disabling it not removing all the packages that need to go
[18:59] <tjaalton> stgraber: well, quirks _can_ be SRU'd
[19:01] <tjaalton> superm1: I'd say fglrx should not be offered for ->r5xx which have 3D support now
[19:01] <tjaalton> but maybe that has been discussed already
[19:01] <superm1> tjaalton, no hasn't been discussed as of yet.
[19:03] <davmor2> Guys I just hit an issue and wanted to check if it was known.  Ekiga seems to just hang up on hardy now rather than making a call :(
[19:07] <mkrufky> superm1: u think we can get that new w_scan-20080815 into mainline ubuntu?  it has atsc/qam support and GPLv2 licensing now
[19:07] <mkrufky> bug # 199398
[19:08] <mkrufky> hmm, no more ubotu, huh?
[19:08] <Pici> bug 199398
[19:08] <Pici> it got confused with that extra space
[19:08] <mkrufky> gotcha
[19:09] <ogra> whats the advantage beyond the scan tool of dvb-utils ?
[19:09] <mkrufky> scan inside dvb-apps requires a scan file
[19:09] <mkrufky> w_scan does an ACTUAL frequency scan
[19:10] <slangasek> kirkland: do you think you'll be working on your end of the pam stuff today?  I'm happy to block out as much time as needed to make sure this is working, and fix it if not; but if you aren't working on it today I'll probably work on other things that I've been neglecting for the past few days as a result of this
[19:10] <mkrufky> ie .... w_scan actually scans the sky for signals.  where scan from dvb-apps just scans a supplied list of frequencies
[19:10] <ogra> which can last several hours if you dont have a predefined range like scan uses
[19:12] <Q-FUNK> howdy!
[19:13] <Q-FUNK> slangasek: would you have any comment on bug #255991 for the hardy-proposed question?
[19:13] <sebner> slangasek: is there a reason why we don't autosync kernel-patch-viewos? It isn't on the blacklist though
[19:15] <slangasek> sebner: from what I see, it is autosynced
[19:15] <slangasek> which would be an error, we aren't supposed to have /any/ kernel patch packages...
[19:16] <sebner> slangasek: ok but the intrepid version is from 2006 and there were versions after 2006 ;)
[19:17] <superm1> ogra, mkrufky hours?  I thought i've seen runs from w-scan within 15-30 minutes?
[19:17] <mkrufky> *I* didnt say hours
[19:17] <mkrufky> lol
[19:17] <slangasek> sebner: were any of them besides the 0.20080616-1 upload last week actually uploaded to Debian?
[19:17] <mkrufky> comparing an ATSC scan using dvb-apps vs w_scan, i might take 20 minutes with dvb-apps and 6 minutes with w_scan
[19:18] <slangasek> sebner: (if so, why does Debian testing still only have 0.2006xxx?)
[19:18] <superm1> mkrufky, yeah we should be able to do something now i suppose.  i'll poke the guy that had it ready in debian, and see if he'll pull it.  if not we can try to add it locally
[19:18] <mkrufky> superm1: it would be key to use the latest release
[19:18] <sebner> slangasek: yes, dunnno (but we sync from unstable so nvm)
[19:18] <mkrufky> superm1: also.... there is that "other" package that i already uploaded to lp
[19:18] <ogra> superm1, i used to use dvb-scanaid before ... that used to walk the full availbale german rnage of dvb frequencies ... last time i gave up after 3h
[19:19] <mkrufky> 258479, superm1
[19:19] <superm1> bug 258479
[19:19] <ogra> i guess it dependson the country you are in any the type of dvb you use
[19:19] <sebner> slangasek: ah it seems that the more kernel versions are in the changelog but didn't get uploaded O_o
[19:19] <mkrufky> heh... i hid it from the bot on purpose ;-)
[19:19] <slangasek> sebner: right, that's what I thought :)
[19:20] <mkrufky> superm1: the package in that bug report is based on the original package that you created, but updated to the 20080815 release
[19:20] <sebner> slangasek: kk, sry for the noise. so no reason to sync anyway?
[19:20] <superm1> mkrufky, oh right.  well lets see what debian guys say.  if they dont respond by the end of the week, lets package it for ubuntu
[19:20] <mkrufky> awesome :-D
[19:20] <slangasek> sebner: well, I would think that we should be removing rather than syncing
[19:20] <sebner> ^^
[19:21] <sebner> slangasek: kay, thx :)
[19:21] <slangasek> Q-FUNK: commented on the bug
[19:23] <Q-FUNK> slangasek: thanks!
[19:28] <ogra> humm ... upstream hal suggests to put fdi files for touchscreens in the evtouch package instead of hal-info ... but that will get us a dependency on hal into xserver-xorg-input-evtouch ... bryce does that make sense ?
[19:28] <Q-FUNK> slangasek: ack.  should I open a separate SRU bug for that?
[19:29] <Q-FUNK> slangasek: alternately, since 2.10.x introduces OLPC support, would it be an acceptable new uptream to introduce via SRU?
[19:40] <bryce> ogra, interesting; I'm not opposed to it (we were planning on putting some fdi stuff into xserver at one point); what does pitti think?
[19:41] <bryce> ogra: I see the evdev does not have dependencies on hal, which makes me think that putting a hal dependency on evtouch would be incorrect.  But I'm far from a hal guru
[19:42] <jcristau> bryce: imo the driver shouldn't depend on hal. xserver-xorg may want to recommend it though
[19:43] <superm1> bryce, i thought pitti was on vacation for another week or so
[19:44] <bryce> superm1: oh, could be, I didn't see a note on it
[19:45] <bryce> jcristau: that's sort of the impression I'm getting
[19:45] <tkamppeter> ion_ the patch for the Debian SVN is OK. Do you also have a debdiff for the Ubuntu CUPS package?
[19:45] <bryce> ogra: could you pastebin the exact suggestion that the hal upstream made?  (and who made it?)
[19:46] <ogra> danny kukawa
[19:47] <ogra> bryce, http://paste.ubuntu.com/39188/
[19:51] <bryce> hmm, don't know Danny
[19:52] <bryce> jcristau: I was about to suggest next to ask debian what their preference would be for device fdi files?  Should they go into hal, or should we make room for them in the xserver?
[19:53] <jcristau> bryce: shipping them with the drivers seems to make sense
[19:54] <jcristau> we're already doing that for synaptics
[19:55] <ion_> tkamppeter: Yes, same URL as before, http://heh.fi/patches/cups-ubuntu/01-adobe-ps
[19:56] <bryce> jcristau: ah, ship them with the drivers, but not adding a hal dependency, gotcha
[20:02] <tkamppeter> ion_, thank you very much.
[20:09] <ogra> bryce, danny is hal upstream now that davidz switched over to do devicekit
[20:09] <bryce> ah ok
[20:14] <ogra> i think he has a valid point but i'm not sure how sane it i to have hal deps for all Xinput packages
[20:15] <ogra> since that would also apply to other non-touchscreen input devices (i.e. wacom)
[20:23] <tseliot> superm1:  in case you didn't notice, python-xkit is in Intrepid, therefore you can test the code that I wrote for you for mythbuntu
[20:25] <tseliot> bryce: currently with some experimental code in X-Kit I can read fdi files but I can't manipulate them (lack of time being the only reason)
[20:25] <tseliot> bryce: however they are planning to move from fdi to something else with DeviceKit
[20:27] <tseliot> quoting Richard Hughes: "Using udev is simpler and quicker than XML hierarchal FDI files, even with a cache"
[20:27] <tseliot> I don't know if this will apply to X input too
[20:30] <bryce> whoa, interesting
[20:30] <bryce> tseliot: sounds like an intrepid+1 thing in any case
[20:31] <ogra> well, as i said before they are planning to get the system dbus into the kernel as interface ... as a far target ... if you couple that with a merges hal/udev (which will be devicekit) ....
[20:31] <ogra> *merged
[20:31] <ogra> ... then you lose two layers of slowdown ....
[20:32] <tseliot> bryce: yes, of course, in intrepid +1
[20:32] <ogra> that wont happen soon ...
[20:32] <tseliot> ogra: getting dbus into the kernel would be very interesting
[20:32] <Chipzz> makes me wonder why they didn't bother to get it right the first time
[20:33] <ogra> they are now :)
[20:33] <Chipzz> but then again, the whole udev/hal etc stack always felt like it was developped in isolation to me
[20:38] <slangasek> Toolchain package versions: libc6-dev_2.8~20080505-0ubuntu6 make_3.81-5 dpkg-dev_1.14.20ubuntu5 g++-4.3_4.3.1-9ubuntu1 gcc-4.3_4.3.1-9ubuntu1 binutils_2.18.50.20080814-0ubuntu1 libstdc++6_4.3.1-9ubuntu1 libstdc++6-4.3-dev_4.3.1-9ubuntu1
[20:39] <slangasek> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[20:39] <slangasek> infinity: did you break the buildds?
[20:39] <slangasek> sh: gcc: not found
[20:39] <slangasek> dpkg-source: warning: Couldn't determine gcc system type, falling back to default (native compilation)
[20:39] <slangasek> ... what
[20:40] <elmo> if infinity broke them, he broke them without internet access
[20:40] <elmo> which would be, well, impressive ;-)
[20:40] <Chipzz> elmo: I guess the force is strong in him ;)
[20:40] <slangasek> heh
[20:40] <ogra> infinite
[20:40] <slangasek> elmo: ok, who broke them? :)
[20:41] <jcristau> slangasek: doesn't dpkg-source run outside the chroot, where gcc isn't available?
[20:41] <elmo> slangasek: AFAICS the chroots haven't changed in a couple of weeks
[20:41] <elmo> slangasek: link to the build log?
[20:42] <slangasek> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/16965462/buildlog_ubuntu-intrepid-hppa.pam_1.0.1-2ubuntu1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
 I have my answer, though
[20:42] <slangasek> I broke them :P
[20:42] <slangasek> please hold while I try to figure out why libpam-runtime is broken on the buildds and not for me
[20:43] <geser> slangasek: I see this message since some time already in the build logs, so this nothing new and it's also in logs for successful builds
[20:44] <test34> When I have compiz enabled, my mouse stop working when I start the Urban Terror game... anybody else seen this problem or know how to solve it ? (the mouse start working again when I exit the game.. and I need to disable compiz to be able to play with the mouse)
[20:45] <slangasek> geser: you're sweet to say so, but the only libpam 1.0.1-2 build that failed is the one that happened after libpam-runtime (arch: all) was published.. :)
[20:45] <test34> I have alpha-4 .. and NVIDIA quadro 1400 with the NVIDIA driver v177
[20:46] <LaserJock> slangasek: perhaps a quick grep of the number of packages that have a dep on dpatch,quilt,cdbs, or have a VCS field may help to figure out how common having a patchsystem-less package is?
[20:46] <geser> slangasek: so this is an other problem and has nothing to do with gcc not being found
[20:46] <tkamppeter> _ion, I have uploaded your new CUPS version now and also committed your patch to the Debian SVN. Thank you very much.
[20:47] <slangasek> LaserJock: well, it's not just having a patch-system-less package, but having a patch-system-less package that also patches upstream, surely?
[20:47] <slangasek> geser: oh, you were referring to the gcc message, ok
[20:47] <ion_> tkamppeter: Thanks
[20:48] <LaserJock> slangasek: hmm, well that's interesting too, but I think the question is what is the percentage of packages that that would be without a patch system *if* we wanted to add a patch
[20:48]  * ogra always prefers to make a debdiff of the *single* change he did and send that as debian bug upstream ... that gives the DD a proper changelo and clean patch
[20:48] <ogra> *changelog
[20:48] <slangasek> LaserJock: what conclusions are you going to draw based on that number, then? :)
[20:49] <LaserJock> well, how often might we expect to need to add a patch system
[20:49] <slangasek> ogra: my argument is that these patches don't just get sent upstream to Debian, they also get carried in the Ubuntu package, where it's relevant to be able to tell the bits apart
[20:49] <ogra> right
[20:49] <ogra> if yu have ten ubuntu revisions its worth nothing
[20:49] <LaserJock> slangasek: but most often there aren't a lot of patches in a patch-system-less package
[20:50] <LaserJock> if the package is patched a lot generally Debian's already picked a system
[20:50] <ogra> it only works with a certain amount of self discipline (which i admittedly not always have)
[20:50] <LaserJock> the only case I can think of where we'd want to keep a lot of patches and not get them upstream is in the case of MIA Debian maintainers
[20:51] <LaserJock> which does happen more often than one would hope for :(
[20:51] <ogra> in the case of MIA DDs we should become package maintainers in debian and take over :P
[20:51] <LaserJock> my problem is that I've seen Ubuntu people get pretty aggressive towards Debian maintainers over patch systems
[20:51] <ogra> *that* would help both of us :)
[20:52] <LaserJock> ogra: I'm sure most of us have enough to do to keep us busy here ;-)
[20:52] <ogra> heh, yeah, i wasnt serious
[20:52] <LaserJock> I've considered it a few times
[20:52] <ogra> though i am pondering to take xaos from joeyh
[20:52] <LaserJock> oh?
[20:53] <LaserJock> I was looking at that
[20:53] <ogra> to fianlly make my step into debian
[20:53] <ogra> he orphaned it recently
[20:53] <LaserJock> I know, I was looking at the Harvest page for it last night
[20:53] <ogra> and i handled it for the last years ... just started slacking recently
[20:53] <LaserJock> the new Debian release needs a sync ack
[20:53] <ogra> it needs more
[20:54] <ogra> unless someone merged the .desktop file and icon which joey refused to do for two years
[20:54] <slangasek> LaserJock: well, if the "system" that Debian has picked is "subversion", then that's worthless and we still need a real patch system :)
[20:54] <LaserJock> ogra: maybe you and I need to start a Debuntu Edu maintainer team on alioth ;-)
[20:54] <ogra> haha
[20:54] <LaserJock> slangasek: why?
[20:55] <slangasek> LaserJock: why is subversion insufficient?
[20:55] <LaserJock> why do we need a real patch system?
[20:55] <slangasek> to ... track patches?
[20:55] <LaserJock> why are we doing that?
[20:55] <slangasek> because we *have* patches?
[20:55] <LaserJock> and why is that?
[20:55]  * LaserJock feels like a 3 year old
[20:55] <ion_> slangasek: If you’re using svn, i have no commit access.
[20:56] <LaserJock> my point is that patches should generally go upstream, not being tracked in Ubuntu, right?
[20:56] <ion_> slangasek: Thus i can’t say “hi, i fixed this, please pull from my branch”.
[20:56] <slangasek> LaserJock: for $reason? :)  I think "we should not have to have patches" is out of scope; there are cases when we do have them for whatever reason, and when we do, they should be managed properly
[20:57] <slangasek> e.g., not like patches were being managed in pam for the past 4 years
[20:57] <LaserJock> slangasek: sure, but it seems to me that the vast majority of packages that we need to track patches on *already* have a patch system
[20:58] <slangasek> LaserJock: I'm arguing that if at any point we have to patch upstream sources, that's the right point at which to get the patch into some kind of patch system, not later after we already have two or three patches muddled together in a .diff.gz
[20:59] <ion_> tkamppeter: Broken buildd? http://launchpadlibrarian.net/16965783/buildlog_ubuntu-intrepid-i386.cups_1.3.8-5ubuntu2_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
[21:00] <LaserJock> slangasek: well patch systems (dpatch, DVCS, etc.) are great no doubt. I'm just wary of making them mandatory because of stuff I've seen Ubuntu people do
[21:01] <LaserJock> i.e. sending a Debian maintainer a plain patch or debdiff is much better than "you better take my patch system or your stupid"
[21:01] <LaserJock> I've seen the same thing with CDBS
[21:02] <LaserJock> nice Ubuntu people "converting" packages and expecting Debian maintainer to just take the whole lot
[21:04] <ion_> For someone who’s not using DVCS, i send a patch set that forms my change when applied in order, in case the change is bigger than one would put to a single commit. stgit is nice for that (reordering, rebasing, exporting to a set of diffs etc).
[21:04] <LaserJock> however, perhaps basing current "policy" on past bad experiences isn't the best thing to do
[21:09] <calc> anyone know what this means:
[21:09] <calc> su: Cannot make/remove an entry for the specified session
[21:09] <calc> when trying to chroot foo su -
[21:10] <Treenaks> calc: utmp entry?
[21:10] <tkamppeter> ion_, it says "gcc not found", this for sure a buildd problem. Anyone here can check buildd
[21:10] <calc> Treenaks: why would it not be able to make one though?
[21:10] <Treenaks> calc: ownership/permissions?
[21:10] <Treenaks> calc: file doesn't exist?
[21:10] <Treenaks> calc: apparmor?
[21:11] <calc> Treenaks: not running apparmor afaik and the chroot is owned by root
[21:11] <elmo> the buildd chroots are broken
[21:11] <elmo> by pam
[21:11] <calc> elmo: doing this on my own machine
[21:11] <elmo> calc: then your chroot is broken, by pam
[21:11] <calc> heh ok
[21:11] <calc> was this a recent upgrade/breakage on hardy for pam?
[21:11] <elmo> yes
[21:11] <calc> ok
[21:13] <calc> i'm confused the newest version of pam listed on lp shows it was in updates since May 22 ?
[21:13] <calc> i must be reading something incorrectly
[21:13] <calc> or was it something else that got updated that showed the bug in pam?
[21:14] <kwah> hi, any ideas on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/259867
[21:14] <elmo> https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pam
[21:14] <elmo> "Published in intrepid-release 9 minutes ago  "
[21:14] <elmo> calc: ^--
[21:15] <calc> elmo: i'm still running hardy, not intrepid
[21:15] <calc> doh
[21:15]  * calc kicks himself
[21:15] <calc> sorry i am stupid
[21:15] <calc> i'm building an intrepid chroot which has the bug obviously
[21:17] <kees> infinity: uhm... "gcc not found" causing FTBFS?  http://launchpadlibrarian.net/16965833/buildlog_ubuntu-intrepid-amd64.git-core_1%3A1.5.6.3-1.1ubuntu1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz
[21:17]  * ScottK got a couple of those too.
[21:17]  * ogra points kees to the topic
[21:17]  * kwah read topic
[21:17] <kees> ah-ha!
[21:17] <ScottK> Ah.  Thanks.
[21:18] <kwah> isnt it braking not only chroots now (or what does it mean for a regular user...)
[21:18] <ScottK> Mine were both on hppa, so I figured it had some hppa specific brain damage.
[21:18] <ogra> (the actual truth is indeed that we switch the whole of ubuntu to interpreted languages secretly)
[21:19] <ogra> the pam issue is just to hide the vanishing of all compilers
[21:19] <calc> lol
[21:19] <kwah> funny aha
[21:19] <LaserJock> ogra: so were getting a python kernel at last?!?
[21:20] <ogra> yeah, why else do you think the kernel team has grown so much recently :)
[21:23] <superm1> tseliot, I must have missed the ping with the code for x-kit.  could you provide it again?
[21:24] <BenC> Anyone have any good/bad things to say about switching from evo to thunderbird?
[21:24] <ogra> BenC, dont !
[21:24] <ogra> evo needs you
[21:24] <JontheEchidna> use kmail!
[21:24]  * JontheEchidna ducks
[21:24] <BenC> ogra: evo has burned me several times
[21:25] <ssweeny> as a mail client thunderbird is far superior, but i like appointments/birthdays/etc in my clock applet
[21:25] <superm1> BenC, never looked back since i switched :)
[21:25] <LaserJock> BenC: data-loss type burn?
[21:25] <BenC> plus it's a little heavy...I only need email, not calendar or tasks
[21:25] <calc> BenC: thunderbird has issues with checking extended headers if using IMAP
[21:25] <BenC> LaserJock: yeah
[21:25] <superm1> BenC, i like a lot of the extensions that you can find on t-bird  that i never found an equivalent for on evo
[21:25] <calc> BenC: I had to switch when upgrading from Thunderbird 1.5 to 2.0 since it broke and the bug regarding it seemed to be open for ~ 6 years already at that point
[21:26] <BenC> calc: what sort of problems does that cause?
[21:26] <LaserJock> I kinda like evo better in terms of headers and customization, but I've never lost anything with Thunderbird
[21:26] <calc> BenC: you can't sort mail properly for eg mailing lists etc, at least in some cases
[21:26] <BenC> I don't use imap other than to fetch...I don't store things in imap
[21:26] <ogra> note that TB doesnt have reply to list
[21:26] <superm1> BenC, stuff that's quite useful for getting patches like Colored Diffs, for mailing lists like "Mail redirect" and "nested quote remover" and "quote collapse"
[21:26] <calc> BenC: that is only with IMAP though afaict and only if you don't have it download the entire messages (i think?)
[21:27] <BenC> superm1: ooog
[21:27] <calc> BenC: so just for fetching it might work out ok
[21:27] <calc> i store all my mail on the relevent server, work server, gmail, my webhost, etc
[21:28] <BenC> I like to keep it strictly local to avoid slow connection problems (e.g. hotels and such)
[21:28] <calc> for anyone using gmail you can set it up to tag your emails on gmail directly then you don't need to sort them in the client at all (if using imap on gmail)
[21:28] <calc> ok
[21:30] <BenC> Not being able to empty my trash folder and showing wrong counts on my folders is really starting to pluck my nerves right now
[21:30] <BenC> and the danger of something else eating my inbox is scary
[21:30] <tseliot> superm1: https://code.launchpad.net/~albertomilone/mythbuntu/mythbuntu-common-xkit
[21:30]  * BenC apologizes to seb128 and gives it a try
[21:31] <superm1> tseliot, great thanks.  i'll take a look later tonight
[21:31] <LaserJock> I suppose it's bad sign if you start running hourly backups on your email ;-)
[21:31] <JontheEchidna> BenC: Thunderbird is nice and simple. Never had any data loss
[21:31] <JontheEchidna> and it's not really resource hungry
[21:31] <kwah> anyone? please... https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/259867
[21:32] <ma10> kwah: i'm locked out of my system too
[21:32] <ogra> BenC, it will become painful to work with debian lists without reply to list function though
[21:32] <liw> BenC, on intrepid?
[21:33] <superm1> ogra, http://alumnit.ca/wiki/?ReplyToListThunderbirdExtension ?
[21:33]  * liw tests system-cleaner on a new machine, and system-cleaner suggest that it, itself is cruft and should be removed
[21:33]  * liw declares the software finished
[21:33] <ogra> superm1, ah
[21:41] <slangasek> kwah: http://people.ubuntu.com/~vorlon/meh is a sed command which you can run as root to edit /etc/pam.d/common-session back to a working state
[21:42] <kwah> guys, at least pull offending packages from the arcihve, please
[21:42] <kwah> its just a config issue?
[21:42] <slangasek> kwah: if you can't get a root shell because of the bug, then I'm afraid you'll have to boot into recovery mode to fix it
[21:42] <slangasek> a glaring, brown-paper-bag config issue, yes
[21:42] <slangasek> the offending packages are in the process of being replaced
[21:45] <ma10> can you tell us how to fix it manually?
[21:46] <ion_> I’d do /\<pam_deny\>/ { <LF> a # blahblah <LF> a session required blahblah <LF> d <LF> } instead.
[21:48] <slangasek> ion_: I prefer to avoid {} where possible
[21:48] <ion_> Why is that?
[21:48] <slangasek> ma10: the URL I pointed to is the command you should run
[21:48] <slangasek> ion_: because if I don't, infinity glares at me even harder for using sed like a programming language
[21:49] <ma10> ops.. didn't pay attention tanks
[21:57] <torkel> slangasek: where did you put pam-auth-update(8)?
[22:00] <ma10> slangasek: so fix committed? ppl are rioting and spamming launchpad :)
[22:02] <slangasek> torkel: it's not written yet, that's a bug
[22:03] <slangasek> ma10: yes, binary is accepted and soon to be published
[22:03] <torkel> slangasek: ah. I noticed that it was mentioned in common-* so I thought it existed :-)
[22:03] <slangasek> torkel: I wrote it there because I didn't want to have to manage another update of the config files once I write it... :)
[22:04] <slangasek> (and I didn't want the upload to block on the documentation, since there are other intrepid changes blocking on this)
[22:05] <ion_> slangasek: So... Refrain from using a program’s capabilities because the syntax would slightly resemble a programming language, having correct indentation and braces all? :-P
[22:05] <ion_> and
[22:06] <slangasek> ion_: precisely :)
[22:07]  * ion_ glares at slangasek *and* infinity
[22:07] <bbs> why is ltmodem broken in restricted drivers
[22:10] <kwah> slangasek, hanks. works like a charm =)
[22:10] <kwah> *thanks
[22:11] <slangasek> kwah: great, glad you were able to get it fixed
[22:12] <james_w> what's the policy on language bindings for MIRs? We have webkit in main now as far as I can see, and mono-tools wants to use webkit-sharp.
[22:12] <bbs> no ideas?
[22:12]  * kwah had few scary moments
[22:13] <kwah> thanks for fix and goodluck
[22:13] <kwah> bb
[22:15] <liw> if anyone wants to give system-cleaner a try, I've just updated my PPA: https://launchpad.net/~liw/+archive (now with a GUI version! but beware, it may want to remove important packages...)
[22:15] <slangasek> bbs: perhaps you should check for open bug reports about this? or file one?
[22:16] <slangasek> james_w: I would argue, on the side of caution, that language bindings are significant software in their own right that should go through the normal MIR process; but if you don't like that answer, I guess you should grab doko for an answer :)
[22:17] <james_w> slangasek: thanks, I might well do that.
[22:17] <james_w> see where volunteering gets you :-)
[22:18] <bbs> slangasek: ok-- i'll just do a custom kernel
[22:18] <ion_> liw: Is there a webpage with documentation?
[22:19]  * slangasek shakes his fist at bbs's retreating form.  people not willing to file bug reports, hmph
[22:19] <liw> ion_, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CleanupCruft has background info, the manpage has usage instructions
[22:20] <ion_> Thanks
[22:20]  * liw seems to have trouble with getting apt to bypass a (transparent?) cache. again. *sigh*
[22:21] <liw> hm, now it worked
[22:22] <liw> the GUI is in need of some serious design level thinking, for usability
[22:23] <tkamppeter> ion_, I have given back the CUPS package now and it build correctly. i386 and lpia are ready now.
[22:23] <ion_> tkamppeter: Alright
[22:23] <tkamppeter> buildd seems to be in a good state again.
[22:30]  * TheMuso glances at topic and is pleased that he doesn't run intrepid full time yet.
[22:33] <ion_> themuso: Define full time.
[22:34] <TheMuso> ion_: Use it daily for critical work.,
[22:34] <Mithrandir> well, a configuration error isn't that hard to fix.
[22:38] <TheMuso> Perhaps, but I'd likely upgrade, then find things are broken, and then have to use another machine/live CD to find a solution...
[22:40] <LaserJock> I jumped to intrepid for daily critical work, though I have a backup install of Fedora just in case
[22:41] <slangasek> TheMuso: rescue mode wouldn't work for you for that?
[22:42]  * slangasek has no idea about the a11y of of rescue mode
[22:42] <TheMuso> slangasek: I could, if I was using my 22" widescreen, but no deacent console speech solution, no.
[22:52]  * slangasek giggles at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/pam/+bug/259867/comments/15
[22:52] <slangasek> it totally should be called a 'love CD'
[22:52] <cr3> does apt support protected urls, in case I want a private archive?
[22:53] <liw> cr3, we could tell you, but that would be a security problem
[22:53] <slangasek> cr3: unless it's been implemented recently, no
[22:53] <cr3> liw: security through obscurity, I will shed some light on that
[22:53] <liw> I have heard rumors that apt supports basic auth, and https, but I've not been successful with getting basic auth to work (haven't tried https)
[22:54] <cr3> liw: it can't be brain surgery to implement, lets get the source and see...
[22:54] <slangasek> liw: /usr/lib/apt/methods/http doesn't appear to link to any crypto libs, and there's no .../https
[22:55] <cjwatson> there's an apt-transport-https package
[22:55] <slangasek> ah
[22:55] <cjwatson> you need to exercise care though; I don't think it's suitable for all use cases that might be described as "private archives" yet
[22:55] <cjwatson> and https isn't even the right model for many such
[23:00] <elmo> apt supports https natively
[23:00] <elmo> at least, that's what I understood from mvo
[23:00] <james_w> kees: the ex-platform meeting is starting now.
[23:00] <elmo> it has some issues, in as much as it doesn't try very hard to validate certs, but it's there
[23:01] <slangasek> elmo: I don't see any support for it in apt, it really does appear to be an add-on package
[23:01] <elmo> oh, well, that's whacky
[23:02] <elmo> liw: basic auth absolutely works, the security buildds all use it
[23:03] <liw> elmo, good, then I'm just stupid :)
[23:03] <slangasek> kirkland: <cough> so, are you still out there somewhere, or did I knock you off the network with my pam breakage?
[23:03] <elmo> anyway, cjwatson++.  apt + https is often not what you want
[23:03] <kirkland> slangasek: just got back to the hotel ;-)
[23:03] <kees> james_w: ooh! I'm off my a day, thanks.
[23:04] <hwilde> please what is console-kit-daemon and do I need it?    it has to be locking up my machine
[23:04] <hwilde> 23 reboots in 5 hrs
[23:04] <slangasek> kirkland: ah, ok :)
[23:05] <hwilde> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/consolekit/+bug/244218
[23:05] <kirkland> slangasek: I have a couple of ecryptfs-utils changes I was just about to try and sweet talk kees into sponsoring :-)
[23:05] <hwilde> !info console-kit-daemon
[23:05] <kirkland> slangasek: let me fix a bug that cjwatson reported earlier today while we were playing with ecryptfs, and then i'll try the pam config magics ;-)
[23:05] <hwilde> !info console-kit
[23:05] <hwilde> what does this mean it does not exist :/   it is scrolling errors in my syslog
[23:05] <jpds> hwilde: consolekit
[23:06] <hwilde> !info consolekit
[23:06] <slangasek> kirkland: ok, cheers; I need to go fix up samba to use it too, now that we have a config that automatically drops pam_smbpass out :)
[23:06] <hwilde>  var/log/syslog scrolling errors    console-kit-daemon[4694]: WARNING: Error waiting for native console 62 activation: Invalid argument
[23:06] <cjwatson> hwilde: please use launchpad.net or /msg rather than asking the bot questions in channel
[23:06] <kirkland> slangasek: boy, that'll make pam's default configs cleaner
[23:07] <kirkland> slangasek: the management thereof, of course
[23:08] <slangasek> kirkland: yes, I've been downright giddy sitting here flipping cracklib on and off with a switch ;)
[23:09] <hwilde> cjwatson, if it was named appropriately I wouldn't have had to ask.  the log scrolling error says console-kit which doesn't exist it's consolekit
[23:09] <liw> slangasek, put the computer down and step away from it slowly...
[23:10] <slangasek> liw: dude!  you can flip cracklib on and off with a switch!
[23:10] <LaserJock> is there any rough estimate on how much member Xorg is generally supposed to take up?
[23:10] <hwilde> if I try to remove consolekit it's trying to take with it:    consolekit* dbus* libbonoboui2-0* libgnome2-0* libgnomeui-0* libgnomevfs2-0* libpanel-applet2-0*
[23:10] <hwilde> I don't want to lose dbus :/
[23:11] <slangasek> liw: as soon as you unbreak your authentication completely due to my botched first upload, that is! :)
[23:11] <LaserJock> bah, s/member/memory/
[23:11] <kirkland> slangasek: kees says something's broke in the package uploading/building?
[23:11] <infinity> kirkland: That's fixed now.
[23:12] <cjwatson> hwilde: my point is not that you had to ask, but that you are asking the bot in this channel. Please do not do that.
[23:12] <slangasek> kirkland: yeah, that was just me. and pam.
[23:12] <cjwatson> you certainly cannot remove consolekit without removing a chunk of the desktop
[23:12] <hwilde> cjwatson, why does the bot reply if we're not allowed to use it
[23:12] <cjwatson> not my problem
[23:12] <hwilde> cjwatson, I don't have a desktop.
[23:12] <hwilde> remember, I intended to install server version, but k6 unusable... so it defaulted to generic :)
[23:13] <hwilde> but I have a feeling if it takes out dbus that would be bad
[23:13] <hwilde> I would settle for where does console-kit-daemon get launched?
[23:14] <infinity> hwilde: You shouldn't need dbus on a server machine.
[23:14] <infinity> hwilde: Certainly don't have it on mine.
[23:14] <wasabi> At some point /etc/dhcp3/dhclient.conf became autogenerated.
[23:14] <slangasek> hwilde: removing dbus should only be an issue if, in the course of removing it, it takes with it reverse-dependencies that you also care about
[23:15] <wasabi> And no longer has send host-name "<hostname>";
[23:15] <wasabi> Is there a master plan for getting host-name back in there by default?
[23:15] <hwilde> who is starting console-kit-daemon?  nothing in /etc/init.d or rcS.d
[23:15] <infinity> hwilde: dbus.
[23:16] <james_w> hwilde: are you on a serial console?
[23:16] <hwilde> james_w, no, ssh, but I do have the serial console option in /boot/grub/menu.lst
[23:16] <hwilde> but I have no gui, no fast user switching, and single login
[23:21] <hwilde> well, I killed it... and moved the binary, and the system is still up.
[23:21] <hwilde> i'd like to know the appropriate way to disable that.  if there is one.
[23:22] <james_w> hwilde: like in the bug did it segfault before those messages?
[23:22] <hwilde> james_w, I dunno, all logging just abruptly stops
[23:23] <hwilde> james_w, I didn't have it running in debug mode
[23:23] <hwilde> but that's the only error I can find in the syslog, and it's in there 1388 times today, and 23 reboots when the system was hard lockup
[23:25] <cjwatson> if a userspace process can hard-lock the kernel, it's a kernel bug
[23:25] <cjwatson> regardless of any problems that userspace process might have in and of itself
[23:26] <hwilde> well, I am remote, so I haven't been able to actually verify hardlockup or hard-enough-to-takeout-networking-support
[23:26] <hwilde> but it is bad.
[23:26] <hwilde> how is one supposed to figure out where console-kit-daemon is launched and stop it from launching?
[23:28] <cjwatson> dpkg -L consolekit; look through those files
[23:29] <hwilde> how is one supposed to find the package is named consolekit, while the binary is console-kit-daemon, and the syslog reference console-kit-daemon
[23:29] <cjwatson> dpkg -S
[23:30] <cjwatson> $ dpkg -S console-kit-daemon
[23:30] <cjwatson> consolekit: /usr/sbin/console-kit-daemon
[23:30] <hwilde> got that far
[23:30] <hwilde> dpkg -L seems to point to   /etc/X11/Xsession.d/90-console-kit
[23:30] <hwilde> but I don't have any X11 session
[23:30] <cjwatson> then you need to look at some of the other files.
[23:30] <hwilde> /etc/ConsoleKit/seats.d/00-primary.seat  ?
[23:31] <cjwatson> sounds unlikely
[23:31] <cjwatson> my bet is on /usr/share/dbus-1/system-services/org.freedesktop.ConsoleKit.service
[23:31] <hwilde>  /usr/share starts things ?
[23:31] <james_w> dbus starts things
[23:32] <james_w> that directory are the things that may be started to run on dbus' session bug
[23:32] <james_w> s/bug/bus :-)
[23:32] <hwilde> http://internetworkpro.org/pastebin/19875
[23:32] <hwilde> if this wasn't free i'd accuse you of trying to protect your job security
[23:32] <hwilde> so I delete  /usr/share/dbus-1/system-services/org.freedesktop.ConsoleKit.service  and then it won't startup anymore?
[23:33] <james_w> yep
[23:33] <hwilde> wow.
[23:33] <james_w> it will come back on the next upgrade though, as it's not a conffile
[23:33] <hwilde> I thought startup things were in /etc
[23:34] <james_w> not for dbus
[23:34] <cjwatson> filesystem paths do not start things
[23:34] <verwilst> hi
[23:34] <cjwatson> programs start things based on whatever they feel like
[23:34] <verwilst> im having a reproducible crash in firefox 3.0.1
[23:34] <verwilst> i want to debug it
[23:34] <hwilde> why is it so difficult tho
[23:34] <verwilst> but i cant install dbgsym for i
[23:34] <verwilst> t
[23:34] <hwilde> if it starts on startup why don't you just put it in /etc/
[23:35] <cjwatson> /etc/ is for configuration files, not for things started on startup
[23:35] <verwilst> firefox-3.0-dbgsym: Depends: firefox-3.0 (= 3.0~b5+nobinonly-0ubuntu3) but 3.0.1+build1+nobinonly-0ubuntu0.8.04.3 is to be installed
[23:35] <hwilde>   /etc/init.d   /etc/rcS.d
[23:35] <cjwatson> if the file has no user-serviceable parts, it doesn't belong in /etc
[23:35] <hwilde> look I use a lot of linux, you can't tell me this particular instance was straightforward.
[23:35] <james_w> hwilde: you should search for a way to stop dbus starting things based on the configuration files in /etc/dbus
[23:36] <cjwatson> hwilde: took me about a minute while doing something else *shrug*
[23:36] <cjwatson> hwilde: you are not supposed to need to investigate this stuff; it's a bug
[23:36]  * hwilde stares at cjwatson
[23:36] <cjwatson> the reason /etc/init.d is in /etc is that people very commonly want to configure their init script
[23:36] <hwilde> so you're saying, it's a bug, live with it ?
[23:36] <cjwatson> s
[23:36] <cjwatson> no, I'm saying it's a bug, get it fixed
[23:37] <cjwatson> you are putting words incorrectly into my mouth and I don't appreciate it
[23:37] <hwilde> I don't even need it, I just want to disable it
[23:37] <hwilde> I can't even figure out how or why it's even running
[23:37] <cjwatson> perhaps due to sshing into that system?
[23:38] <cjwatson> consolekit tracks console logins, and ssh registers with it since otherwise GNOME desktop tools don't work properly over ssh
[23:38] <hwilde> I don't have gnome or desktop.
[23:39] <cjwatson> sure, but sshd doesn't know that
[23:39] <cjwatson> it registers with consolekit; that you *do* get to live with
[23:39] <hwilde> not anymore :)
[23:39] <hwilde> totally killed it
[23:40] <hwilde> seems fine without it.
[23:41] <hwilde> so... where is this mystery config file that causes dbus to start console-kit-daemon :/
[23:41] <cjwatson> we told you; you didn't listen
[23:42] <cjwatson> /usr/share/dbus-1/system-services/org.freedesktop.ConsoleKit.service defines a service, and something (most probably sshd, but it could be something else) is requesting a service on that bus so it gets started
[23:42] <cjwatson> s/a service on that bus/that service/
[23:42] <hwilde> somebody should really make an xchat plug that recognize search and replace :)
[23:44] <hwilde> ok so shouldn't that file be named  /usr/share/dbus-1/system-services/org.freedesktop.console-kit.service
[23:45] <hwilde> or  /usr/share/dbus-1/system-services/org.freedesktop.console-kit-daemon.service
[23:45] <hwilde> either of those cases I would have found with a locate, deleted it, and never come here to interrupt your idle time
[23:45] <ion_> It could be named foobar.service and it would work just as well.
[23:45] <hwilde> also the package should be named console-kit
[23:45] <cjwatson> I'm afraid you just need to learn to use the tools properly
[23:45] <hwilde> mess up the naming conventions and people will ask questions
[23:45] <cjwatson> we aren't going to change all package names for the convenience of people who don't want to use dpkg
[23:45] <hwilde> name it consistently and I wont need any tools.
[23:46] <hwilde> you know i'm right
[23:46] <hwilde> don't take it personally
[23:46] <cjwatson> you're wrong, I'm afraid
[23:46] <ion_> I know you’re not. :-P
[23:46] <cjwatson> packages often contain programs with a variety of names
[23:46] <hwilde> not this one.
[23:46] <cjwatson> it is not generally simple to make them universally guessable, so it is better for users to learn the tools since that way they gain transferrable skills
[23:46] <cjwatson> I am not going to continue this conversation
[23:47] <hwilde> there is no valid reason for it to not be named console-kit as the binary and daemon are named.
[23:48] <verwilst> it seems there are no ddebs being generated for hardy-security...
[23:48] <verwilst> i need it to backtrace a firefox crash :)
[23:49] <hwilde> so, this bug is still status New, undecided.  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/consolekit/+bug/244218
[23:49] <hwilde> would you like any debug info to confirm?
[23:49] <cjwatson> verwilst: pitti is the ddeb master, but is more likely to be around during European working hours
[23:49] <verwilst> cjwatson: ill bug pitti tomorrow then :)
[23:49] <verwilst> im in europe too so it's time for bed ;)
[23:50] <hwilde> europeans don't sleep :)
[23:50] <james_w> hwilde: I'll deal with it tomorrow
[23:51] <james_w> hwilde: now can you please stop telling us we are wrong? at least for tonight?
[23:51] <verwilst> cjwatson: can i build a ddeb myself?
[23:51] <verwilst> like from a normal source package?
[23:51] <hwilde> james_w, would developing ubuntu be as much fun without demanding users?  :)
[23:52] <hwilde> i'm sorry, I use ubuntu in a production environment, forgive me
[23:52] <cjwatson> verwilst: I think you can do it by installing pkg-create-dbgsym and building the package
[23:52] <cjwatson> then *all* package builds will get ddebs built, until you remove pkg-create-dbgsym
[23:52] <verwilst> nice
[23:53]  * verwilst creates a debootstrapped environment
[23:53] <verwilst> or reads up on how to use pbuilder? :P
[23:55] <hwilde> I love ubuntu :)    can't get this level of response (violent as it may be) anywhere else :)
[23:55] <slangasek> hwilde: developing ubuntu is a lot more fun when demanding users don't join #ubuntu-devel and repeatedly tell us we're doing it wrong
[23:56] <hwilde> slangasek, I take it back.  I was wrong.  the binary is console-kit and the error message is console-kit and I did not think to locate consolekit.
[23:57] <hwilde> I know the filesystem, not dpkg so much.
[23:58] <hwilde> can I donate specifically to have the package name changed to console-kit :)
[23:59] <slangasek> I believe that's based on the upstream project name
[23:59] <verwilst>   pbuilder-satisfydepends-dummy: Depends: xulrunner-1.9-dev (>= 1.9.0.1) but it is not installable
[23:59] <verwilst> rah