[11:24] <divya123> Hello everybody .How do I make work Odesk team on ubuntu 8.0.4 hardy?Any help?
[12:00] <divya123> Any one knows how to set up oDesk team in Ubuntu Hardy?IF yes please hel p me doing this
[12:00] <vistakiller> go to #ubuntu channel
[12:01] <divya123> I couldn't any such channel over the list
[17:25] <Laney> @schedule london
[17:56] <davmor2> hello heno_ :)
[17:56] <heno_> hey davmor2 :)
[17:59] <pedro_> hello everybody!
[17:59]  * ogasawara waves
[17:59] <davmor2> hiya pedro_
[17:59] <pedro_> hey davmor2
[17:59] <davmor2> hello ogasawara
[18:00] <heno_> hey all!
[18:00] <intellectronica> hi
[18:00] <sbeattie> hey
[18:00] <LaserJock> o/
[18:01] <heno_> I'm in millbank this week with the distro team leads
[18:02] <davmor2> intellectronica: your nick sounds like something from a woody allen or mel brooks film ;)
[18:02] <heno_> sorry if I've been unresponsive on IRC/email
[18:02] <heno_> (and I was on holiday last week)
[18:02] <intellectronica> davmor2: in fact, it's something from a Stanislav Lem book, so not very far
[18:02] <davmor2> :)
[18:03] <davmor2> heno_: have a good hol?
[18:03] <ara> intellectronica: thanks to autocompletation it is not such a pain to type your nick completely ;-)
[18:04]  * stgraber waves
[18:04] <intellectronica> ara: it would be hard to compete with yours ;)
[18:04] <heno_> I understand there was an LP/ubuntu IRC meeting on monday, but we failed to invite community participation :(
[18:04] <LaserJock> heno_: where was that?
[18:05] <ara> heno_: no, it was the canonical qa meeting this week
[18:05] <heno_> could we have a volunteer for that for the next meeting in ~10 days?
[18:05] <intellectronica> indeed. my apologies. we were organising it quickly and i simply didn't know who might be interested
[18:05] <ara> heno_: no, you are write. i was off this monday :-)
[18:05] <emgent> hello
[18:05] <heno_> ara: np :)
[18:06] <davmor2> intellectronica: if all else fails you could ping #ubuntu-quality
[18:06] <intellectronica> davmor2: good idea. should have thought about it myself
[18:06] <LaserJock> heno_: would an email to ubuntu-qa with an agenda suffice you think to get some attendance?
[18:07] <heno_> LaserJock: sounds good
[18:07] <intellectronica> shall we move that meeting at #malone-ubuntu-qa-meeting from now on, and leave it open to whoever wants to join?
[18:07] <heno_> or/and holding it in an open channel
[18:08] <LaserJock> intellectronica: you could even do it in #ubuntu-quality :-)
[18:08] <heno_> I think there is value to having voice discussions as well
[18:08] <intellectronica> LaserJock: heh, true :)
[18:08] <intellectronica> heno_: i very much agree
[18:08] <nullack> Can the meeting start please, its 3:08am here :)
[18:08] <heno_> how can we allow for that as well?
[18:08] <heno_> #startmeeting
[18:08] <heno_> sorry
[18:09] <persia> I'd like to request that meetings generally happen here unless there is an overriding reason to do it somewhere else: the bot here helps advertise the meeting, and many interested parties will idle here.
[18:09] <heno_> we are in fact on agenda item #1 now
[18:09] <LaserJock> heno_: perhaps on an as-needed basis based on a felt need in the IRC meeting?
[18:09] <persia> What's the link for the agenda again?
[18:09] <heno_> persia: agreed
[18:09] <LaserJock> persia: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
[18:09] <intellectronica> persia: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
[18:09] <persia> Thanks :)
[18:09] <intellectronica> LaserJock: high five
[18:10] <heno_> does anyone know what the limit on skype conf calls is ATM? is that 5 or can it be worked around?
[18:10] <intellectronica> iirc it's still 5
[18:10] <nullack> What if we used team speak or something?
[18:11] <heno_> that would probably be better than phone for many
[18:11] <LaserJock> well, realistically having more than 5 people in a voice conversation is going to get messy anyway
[18:11] <heno_> nullack: can you expand on it's features and what's needed to run it?
[18:12] <stgraber> heno_: a teamspeak server and the client, it can have multiple channels and some moderation. But it's non-free
[18:12] <heno_> (I think we used it at UDS once)
[18:12] <nullack> Its used typically in gaming for teams of people = free to use, uses UDP, you can setup security on your chan, multiple servers
[18:12] <stgraber> IIRC it was used at UDS-Paris
[18:12] <heno_> indeed
[18:12] <nullack> There is alternative non free
[18:12] <heno_> skype is non-free too though
[18:13] <intellectronica> actually, skype may allow up to 10 users now (but we'll have to check)
[18:13] <heno_> stgraber: would you be comfortable hosting conversations?
[18:14] <pedro_> intellectronica: indeed -> http://share.skype.com/sites/en/2006/02/we_now_have_10way_conference_c.html
[18:14] <persia> I think that "mumble" is the name of the free teamspeak like thing.
[18:14] <intellectronica> i would give skype a priority (despite being non-free) if it works at all. when it does work, it tends to be simpler to use than oterh solutions. in my team we've tried many different solutions and ended up coming back to skype every time
[18:15] <heno_> I agree
[18:16] <intellectronica> and i have the required hardware for hosting 10 people calls, so i'm happy to host
[18:16] <davmor2> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Ekiga do the list is conference calls it sounds feasible
[18:16] <stgraber> heno_: I'm doing some TS hosting for some game team so I can just add a servr to that host yes
[18:16] <heno_> excellent, thanks
[18:16] <ScottK> FYI the current Skype client does not work well in Hardy Kubuntu.  Dunno about Gnome.
[18:17] <heno_> ScottK: is that the binary from the skype site?
[18:17] <pedro_> ScottK: it works fine for me with in Gnome with Hardy and Intrepid
[18:17] <ScottK> Yes.
[18:17] <intellectronica> ScottK: works fine for me, but on some installations you need to use the portaudio wrapper to make sure it interoperates well with the sound system
[18:18] <ScottK> intellectronica: I'd appreciate some additional info on that outside the meeting.
[18:18] <heno_> it may also have issues on 64 bit systems
[18:18] <ScottK> Mine are all 32bit.
[18:18] <heno_> ok
[18:19] <ScottK> I had more luck with the one for Sid than Ubuntu, but maybe I should try it again.
[18:19] <davmor2> I run skype on my n800 only
[18:19] <heno_> let's try skype for the next LP/Ubuntu meeting
[18:19] <cgregan> Perhaps a naive question, but, we need a free tool for conversations....there are a few out there..why not focus some of the community testing/dev resources attention toward one and get it in shape? Ekiga Week...or something.
[18:19] <heno_> but we should also be on IRC
[18:20] <heno_> that's a point, but the world uses skype, which we also need to support
[18:21] <heno_> on a related topic intellectronica and bdmurray have combined the feedback from the prioritisation discussion
[18:22] <intellectronica> i have passed this to the launchpad mgmt team for consideration, b.t.w
[18:22] <LaserJock> is that available somewhere?
[18:23] <intellectronica> iirc it will be discussed next week
[18:23] <intellectronica> LaserJock: it's in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/LaunchpadBugsFeaturePriorities
[18:24] <LaserJock> hmm, I thought TagDiscipline was much higher on the list
[18:25] <heno_> hm, looks like that doesn't have updated numbers
[18:25] <intellectronica> i may have missed something. i thought that wiki page was updated to reflect the latest discussions, but i may have been wrong
[18:25] <heno_> I'm afraid that's fallen between chairs, sorry
[18:26] <intellectronica> does anyone know where i can find the latest decisions? i'm happy to update this page from the data
[18:26] <bdmurray> I believe some people replied with their opinion to the ubuntu-qa mailing list
[18:26] <heno_> I was meant to but never got to it and though you guys had picked that up
[18:26] <heno_> bdmurray: right but some synthesis work is needed
[18:27] <bdmurray> right
[18:27] <heno_> OK, I'll take that tomorrow then
[18:27] <intellectronica> i don't mind collecting this data from the list, but i think someone from your team will need to ok this before i submit
[18:27] <heno_> I had actually promised to do that 10 days ago
[18:28] <bdmurray> We could add columns for each member perhaps? then heno could synthesize it
[18:28] <LaserJock> related to that, I'm not sure the MOTU column is exactly needed ;-)
[18:29] <heno_> I think I may take a more hand-wavy approach
[18:29] <intellectronica> bdmurray: wouldn't that be overkill? remember also, that we want results fairly quickly, before the end of the week
[18:29] <intellectronica> LaserJock: no, MOTU is done elsewhere
[18:29] <heno_> I'll read the list and meeting log
[18:29] <LaserJock> the meeting log should be pretty good, we were able to thrash things out a bit
[18:29] <heno_> indeed
[18:30] <heno_> if we're done with that, I have a new topic
[18:30] <heno_> QA server
[18:30] <LaserJock> did we cover the first agenda item?
[18:31] <heno_> intellectronica: did you get your questions answered?
[18:31] <intellectronica> heno_: sort of. i think we'll have to make sure that we're sorted well before the next summit meeting
[18:32] <intellectronica> we have two weeks, though, so i'll try to talk to people until then
[18:32] <LaserJock> I haven't seen thekorn around, I was sort of waiting on his reply to my email :/
[18:32] <heno_> right. time and place will be monday in ~10 days in #ubuntu-quality
[18:33] <heno_> what should be the time, 16.00 UTC?
[18:34] <intellectronica> that's the current time, so unless it's inconveninent for someone who wants to participate, let's leave it like that
[18:34] <ara> +1
[18:34] <heno_> let's all make sure we have skype working by then
[18:34] <intellectronica> i'll host the meeting on skype, and try to gather people (up to 10 of them :) in the run up to the meeting
[18:34] <heno_> *cough*
[18:34] <heno_> intellectronica: thanks
[18:35] <heno_> [TOPIC]: QA server
[18:35] <LaserJock> let's have an agenda set prior though :-)
[18:35] <heno_> on the wiki
[18:35] <persia> Wait, what's happening in #ubuntu-quality?  Why not here?
[18:36] <LaserJock> persia: I don't think anything's happening in #ubuntu-quality, it's a voice meeting
[18:36] <heno_> persia: it's primarily a voice meeting
[18:36] <persia> OK.  I just saw "time and place will be monday in ~10 days in #ubuntu-quality" which didn't seem to match what else I was reading.
[18:37] <heno_> with a precense on IRC for those with skype problems ;)
[18:37] <persia> RIght.  No reason not to pass URLs, etc. for a voice meeting in #ubuntu-quality: most of us are likely to be there anyway :)
[18:37] <heno_> persia: my bad
[18:37] <persia> heno_: Or just me having trouble understanding things at this time of night :)
[18:37] <heno_> QA server>
[18:38] <heno_> I understand a new box is now installed and powered up in the DC
[18:38] <ara> that's great news
[18:38] <heno_> where we can move our package info pages, bug helper scripts, graphs etc
[18:39] <heno_> we need to give feedback on what URLs and such we want
[18:39] <bdmurray> Its still missing a dns entry though right?
[18:39] <LaserJock> .... so is it just as tight as usual DC access?
[18:39] <heno_> qa.ubuntu.com is currently the 'portal'
[18:39] <sbeattie> we have cron access, etc?
[18:39] <heno_> bdmurray: right
[18:39] <heno_> sbeattie: we should, yes
[18:40] <ara> is it documented somewhere how to access?
[18:40] <heno_> should we still use *.qa.u.c ut forward the root URL to the drupal box?
[18:40] <ara> or not yet?
[18:41] <bdmurray> ara: I can talk to you about that
[18:41] <ara> bdmurray: ok, thanks
[18:41] <heno_> ara: it's not set up yet, but it will be now when we say what we want on it etc
[18:41] <heno_> Lamont is handling it
[18:42] <heno_> stgraber: do you have strong feelings about the dns handling?
[18:42] <heno_> and where will the package pages live?
[18:42] <heno_> status.qa.u.c/firefox etc?
[18:43] <stgraber> heno_: just let me read the backlog
[18:43] <stgraber> oh, we have a new box. Happy to hear that :)
[18:44] <heno_> stgraber and ogasawara: can you two agree on the namespace for the package pages?
[18:44] <stgraber> *. pointing to Drupal was done with the multiple trackers in mind, now I'd rather like to remove some of them so I guess it's fine to just drop that entry
[18:45] <stgraber> in the devel branch, package status are on : http://pkgstatus.qa.ubuntu.com/<package name>
[18:46] <heno_> ok, cool
[18:46] <LaserJock> heno_: who's gonna have access to this box?
[18:46] <heno_> so we just need to agree on the first part of that URL
[18:46] <heno_> LaserJock: that will be Canonical folks only unfortunately
[18:47] <heno_> that's IS policy for the DC
[18:47] <LaserJock> heno_: ok
[18:47] <heno_> should it be 'status', 'pkgstatus', ...?
[18:47] <bdmurray> maybe status since there will be team pages too
[18:48] <heno_> right
[18:48] <LaserJock> so is this in addition to the qa.ubuntu.com box?
[18:48] <stgraber> well, at least for this box Canonical QA guys can access it, AFAIK they couldn't access kumquat (current qa.ubuntu.com) :)
[18:48] <stgraber> so it's "more open" than what we currently have (need to ask sysadmins for every changes we want to make)
[18:49] <LaserJock> so is the plan to move qa.ubuntu.com to the new box?
[18:49] <heno_> do we have consensus on 'status'?
[18:49] <persia> If we have things that need access of one sort or another, we might be able to ask the Ubuntuwire folk for some hosting, although UWSA has their own set of policies.
[18:50] <heno_> LaserJock: not the portal, as that's drupal
[18:50] <ogasawara> heno_:  'status' is fine with me
[18:50] <stgraber> LaserJock: I guess only python stuff will run on the new box
[18:50] <LaserJock> heno_: ah, I see
[18:50] <LaserJock> stgraber: heh, I see
[18:50] <LaserJock> I think we should maybe have a wiki page for QA resources
[18:51] <LaserJock> that would list the boxen available and what their limitations are
[18:51] <heno_> And this is a php-free box
[18:51] <heno_> the drupal box is php-only
[18:51] <heno_> ok, let's go with that
[18:51] <heno_> any other business?
[18:52] <stgraber> heno_: it's not php-only, we have some python code too (syncronisation with LP)
[18:52] <LaserJock> we could then also list QA-related services that aren't hosted on one of those 3 so people can see where things are at
[18:52] <heno_> stgraber: could you give a list of the URLs that will need forwarding?
[18:52] <heno_> qa.* and iso.qa.*
[18:53] <heno_> for sure
[18:53] <stgraber> brainstorm too
[18:53] <stgraber> blog
[18:53] <heno_> what else do we still need at this point
[18:53] <stgraber> firefox ?
[18:53] <heno_> brainstorm as it's on entry at bs.u.c though
[18:53] <stgraber> right
[18:53] <heno_> right, firefox gets used still
[18:53] <stgraber> wait a second, I'll have a look at the DB
[18:54] <stgraber> firefox.qa.ubuntu.com, iso.qa.ubuntu.com, qa.ubuntu.com, blog.qa.ubuntu.com, status.qa.ubuntu.com
[18:55] <stgraber> and we then drop: kernel.qa.ubuntu.com, server.qa.ubuntu.com, xorg.qa.ubuntu.com
[18:55] <heno_> sounds good
[18:56] <heno_> and we may redirect iso.qa a few weeks after intrepid is out :)
[18:56] <stgraber> yeah
[18:57] <heno_> anything else, shall we wrap up?
[18:57] <stgraber> nothing here
[18:57] <stgraber> except that my home internet is quite broken atm so don't expect me to do much ISO testing or be able to attend a phone call before a few weeks (hopefully days)
[18:58] <davmor2> :(
[18:58] <ara> :(
[18:58] <sbeattie> Just wanted to thank everyone who helped knock down the pending SRU queue, it's looking better.
[18:59] <heno_> right. and I'll still be a bit tricky to contact until Monday
[18:59] <heno_> as I'm still sprinting
[18:59] <heno_> full day of talks still tomorrow and friday
[19:00] <davmor2> stgraber: I might not be around for the next alpha on holiday :(  so please get it fixed :)
[19:00] <stgraber> I'll try :)
[19:00] <nullack> heh
[19:00] <stgraber> connection at work is good though, I may download here and test at home
[19:00] <sbeattie> Oh, were we going to try to do a global bug testing session?
[19:00] <heno_> let me just finish by pointing everyone at http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/graphs/
[19:00] <stgraber> if I'm lucky I can then use rsync
[19:00] <heno_> look at New bugs over the past 30 days
[19:01] <heno_> it's down by about 2000 bugs!
[19:01] <davmor2> cool :)
[19:01] <heno_> testing Jam> good idea
[19:01] <pedro_> nice ;-)
[19:01] <heno_> I mentioned it for Jono today
[19:01] <ara> cool :-)
[19:02] <heno_> who will ask Daniel to have a look at helping set that up
[19:02] <heno_> based on his work with the bug jam
[19:02] <heno_> should we aim for around beta some time?
[19:03] <bdmurray> I was saying that seemed too late
[19:03] <heno_> should that include both iso and sru testing of some form?
[19:03] <LaserJock> at this point I think the earliest we can feasibly get it organized is best
[19:04] <bdmurray> We want to have it well before kernel freeze as an ISO testing jam would reveal those bugs the most
[19:04] <bdmurray> Since everyone will be testing on different hardware
[19:04] <heno_> bdmurray: because it takes longer to get people trained up to test properly before final or because the bugs are less useful that late?
[19:04] <cr3> heno_: could we take the opportunity of the testing jam to introduce automated testing and encourage people to contribute scripts?
[19:04] <heno_> cr3: indeed, how is that looking btw?
[19:04] <cr3> heno_: should we have the testcases wiki page ready before the testing jam so that they could also contribute manual tests
[19:04] <davmor2> heno_: Yes I think people enabling proposed and not wanting to move to intrepid can hit sru
[19:05] <heno_> perhaps we should run it more like a testing open week with tutorials
[19:06] <davmor2> can I get an extra confirmation on a bug please can someone try and use ekiga to connect to 500@ekiga.net ?
[19:06] <heno_> rather than aiming for testing volume
[19:06] <LaserJock> well, in my mind I was sort of thinking of it like an install fest
[19:06] <cr3> heno_: what do you mean by "how is that looking"? enabling the community to submit results to the certification server?
[19:06] <davmor2> it should just hang straight up :(
[19:06] <LaserJock> except when it breaks, rather than saying "Ubuntu sucks!" people will file bugs :-)
[19:06] <heno_> we would rather build up some good testers than test lots of stuff poorly
[19:07] <cr3> LaserJock: perhaps we should have sucks.ubuntu.com redirect to bugs.launchpad.net
[19:07] <LaserJock> heno_: probably a combination of both would happen
[19:07] <heno_> agreed
[19:07] <LaserJock> good hardware coverage is good, even if the testing quality isn't all that great
[19:08] <LaserJock> basic, does it install? does it boot? is great there
[19:08] <LaserJock> but then we do want to get testing past basically ISO/installation testing I'm guessing
[19:08] <persia> Given the history of the "Global Bug Jam", I'd advocate first getting something like "Test Days" in analog to "Bug Days".  Then, look for LoCo integration with a few pilots, and only after the procedure is well documented, try for a big Global effort.
[19:08] <nullack> Laserjock: especially if good services like apport have good functionality users skill wont be the limiting factor with a wider hardware test
[19:09] <heno_> how should we track testing
[19:09] <heno_> ?
[19:09] <heno_> should we set up a fake milestone in the iso tracker?
[19:09] <LaserJock> persia: yeah, I was hoping we could move fast enough to get a Testing Jam in before Intrepid, but I'm starting to think that's a bit too ambitious
[19:09] <heno_> and how early can we pull one off
[19:10] <ara> we could set up something similar to session based testing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Session-based_testing
[19:10] <heno_> if we down scale it we can do it sooner
[19:10] <LaserJock> I like the idea of having a few Testing Days
[19:10] <heno_> i.e. not use the word global just yet
[19:10] <heno_> I agree with persio that we should build it a bit gradually
[19:10] <LaserJock> to be more tutorial, work on the documentation and tools
[19:10] <persia> My memory was that it took about a year to go from the concept of Bug Jam to the Global Bug Jam.
[19:11] <heno_> but we should aim to do the first 'small' day soon
[19:11] <persia> With concerted effort, this could probably be 5-6 months, but sooner would be hard.
[19:11] <LaserJock> well, I was sort of banking on "standing on the shoulders of giants" and not taking so long ;-)
[19:11] <persia> Maybe announce a special "Testing Day" to coincide with the release of the next Alpha, to be conducted in #ubuntu-testing?
[19:12] <persia> Send lots of mail, and make sure to schedule people to be active and talking about their testing for all 49 hours of the international day.
[19:12] <persia> That's the model that worked to get Bug Days up and running.
[19:12] <LaserJock> +1
[19:12] <persia> (way back in Hoary/Breezy days)
[19:13] <persia> Oh, for the 5-6 month effort, I'll break it down:
[19:13]  * heno_ wait for the release schedule page to load
[19:13] <persia> 2 months to get people adapted to attending regular Testing Days
[19:13] <persia> 1 month to organise the first couple LoCos running a Testing Jam
[19:14] <persia> 1 month to review, discuss, and document the experience and prepare a guide for next time, perhaps including a trial of the updates with a couple other LoCos.
[19:14] <persia> Another month of press blitz to spread the word about the new working process, and let all the LoCos schedule space and prepare for a Global Jam.
[19:15] <persia> That's 5, but I think it's an agressive schedule.
[19:15] <persia> 6 would be having the updated procedure trial in a separate month from review/discussion.
[19:18] <ara> split?
[19:18] <persia> Indeed.
[19:18] <Treenaks> quite
[19:22] <heno__> sorry my wireless dropped out
[19:22] <ara> well, a lot of people dropped
[19:22] <heno__> I was going to suggest Tuesday before Alpha 5 as a testing day
[19:23] <heno__> and perhaps do them for the remaining milestones
[19:23] <persia> I think for the first day, it may be better to be post-Alpha.  While this may not be a core testing day, it would mean that the normal testers are more likely to have time to support the new testers.
[19:23] <sbeattie> Hrm, alpha 5 release coincides with the developer week, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/Prep
[19:24] <sbeattie> would we want to tie in with that?
[19:24] <persia> Also, the new testers are sure to find a couple minor issues that also need reporting, but will need guidance on using the various trackers, etc.
[19:24] <heno__> but we really need people to get their head around how the test crunch works
[19:24] <persia> Oh.  That's not ideal.  One can rarely get people's attention for more than a couple hours during Developer Week.
[19:24] <davmor2> heno__: beta might be better
[19:24] <heno__> and regular testers will be a bit tired of testing after the release :)
[19:25] <persia> heno__: Sure, people need to understand that, but I think showing them the procedures the first time will make the new testers feel more successful, and you can add the pressure the second time, when you have a larger group that understands what needs doing.
[19:25] <persia> And the regular testers will probably find they are spending time helping the new testers test and report, rather than actually testing (at least this was my experience during the early Bug Days)
[19:26] <nullack> Or dealing with existing issues - the known issues list should probably be expanded
[19:27] <heno__> should it be a weekday (friday after alpha 5 then say)?
[19:28] <heno__> weekend days were quite slow past open week
[19:28] <heno__> AFAIR
[19:28] <heno__> davmor2, sbeattie: are you happy with the Friday?
[19:28] <persia> We ran the first bug days on the weekends, and nobody came.  We switched to weekdays, and got some people, but many of them complained they should have been on the weekends.  I'm really not sure how to interpret that data...
[19:28] <heno__> sept 5th
[19:29] <davmor2> heno__: I will still be on holiday :(
[19:29] <davmor2> I get back sunday 7th
[19:29] <heno__> ok
[19:30] <heno__> ara, stgraber, cr3: any views on the Friday?
[19:30] <sbeattie> heno__: it fits my schedule, I think.
[19:30] <ara> heno__: i will be travelling for the weekend (london) that weekend
[19:30] <ara> heno__: therefore, i wont be able to stay after 2pm (madrid time)
[19:31] <sbeattie> I'm just concerned about persia's point about it being hard to get people's attention during developer week.
[19:31] <heno__> we should make it clear that the alpha 6 day and beyond will be pre-milestone though
[19:31] <heno__> sbeattie: for a Friday even?
[19:31] <sbeattie> heno__: -ENOCLUE, persia?
[19:32] <persia> Depends on what gets scheduled for Friday.  It's often a full schedule for both Friday and Saturday, by the end of scheduling.
[19:32] <heno__> let's try that and see how it goes
[19:32] <persia> Anyway, despite my preference for having meetings here, we're half an hour overtime, and it doesn't feel like we're still on an agenda: should we be in #ubuntu-quality?
[19:33] <heno__> we're at 90 minutes now, let's wrap up
[19:33] <heno__> indeed
[19:33] <cr3> Friday sounds good
[19:33] <heno__> #endmeeting
[19:33] <stgraber> +1
[19:33] <stgraber> (for friday)
[19:33] <heno__> thanks everyone!
[19:33] <nullack> Thanks for allowing me to contirbute while not a member of the team
[19:34] <heno__> nullack: you can be a member if you like :)
[19:34] <ara> :)
[19:34] <nullack> :)
[19:34] <heno__> esp. when you contribute!
[19:35] <ara> see you!
[19:35] <heno__> I've go to run again
[21:08] <tamer_> anyone knows where to get more sources for deb packages ?
[22:52]  * slangasek waves
[22:53] <james_w> hi all
[22:53] <evand> hi
[22:54]  * ArneGoetje yawns
[22:55] <asac> hi
[22:55] <TheMuso> Hey folks.
[22:56] <cjwatson> good evening
[22:56] <cjwatson> sorry for lack of mail, I have been mail-impaired this week
[22:56] <calc> hi
[22:56] <cjwatson> my home server has been helpfully coming online for just long enough to download my mail and delete it from the server, and then vanishing again
[22:56] <evand> ouch
[22:57] <TheMuso> ouch indeed.
[22:57] <liw> urf
[22:58] <cjwatson> bryce,ogra: around?
[22:59] <bryce> heya
[22:59] <james_w> cjwatson: I guess you didn't get mail from kees about the meeting?
[22:59] <cjwatson> I did, but ... err ... I can't remember what it said, only that he had something to discuss
[23:00] <cjwatson> sorry, I feel like my umbilical cord has been cut
[23:00] <james_w> yeah, he didn't say, but I wondered if you realised he wanted some time tonight
[23:00] <cjwatson> I did, he doesn't seem to be here though ...
[23:01] <cjwatson> anyway, we can start in his absence
[23:01] <james_w> I just dropped him a reminder
[23:01] <cjwatson> any outstanding actions from last week? most of the things in the report seem to have been dealt with
[23:02] <cjwatson> has any testing been done on end-to-end 256MB installs with compcache?
[23:04] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje: how goes language-selector? (you said "next week")
[23:04] <kees> hi, sorry, I was off by a day
[23:04] <asac> wasnt that ogra's topic?
[23:04] <asac> (compcache)
[23:04] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: I'm currently testing and debugging it.
[23:04] <cjwatson> asac: yeah, I'm guessing he's rightly taking it easy at the moment
[23:04] <asac> exactly
[23:05] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: still some things to fix in the UI
[23:06] <cjwatson> needs help, or under control?
[23:06] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: unfortunately mvo will be on vacation next week... so it has to be finished this week, or will need a FF excpetion...
[23:07] <cjwatson> perhaps somebody else (james?) can stand in if there is a current list of broken things
[23:07] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: if someone with PyGTK experience could help, it would be great
[23:08] <liw> ArneGoetje, what kind of problems are you having? (I'm tackling with PyGTK myself, for system-cleaner, and I've done some PyGTK programming before, so maybe I can help?)
[23:08] <cjwatson> we have plenty of those people, so send a list to ubuntu-devel@ or distro-team@ if you're still stuck by the end of the week
[23:08] <james_w> you can feel free to send some questions my way
[23:09] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: ok, will do
[23:09] <cjwatson> calc: while ooo-langpacks isn't quite FF as such, it shouldn't drag on too late; I'm glad you're making progress with it
[23:09] <cjwatson> calc: any more news on openoffice.org testing?
[23:09] <calc> cjwatson: yea, looking into the OOo split now as well, it might solve the issue for us
[23:10] <cjwatson> calc: I was about to install it myself, but for some reason the en-gb langpacks don't seem to have been built; is there a reason the -l10n package just builds en-us at the moment?
[23:10] <calc> cjwatson: i got a few testers, mostly good reports so far, one about the splash screen being the old 2.4 one, heh :)
[23:10] <calc> cjwatson: yea the languages aren't finished yet in beta2
[23:10] <calc> cjwatson: supposed to be ready for rc1 next week
[23:10] <cjwatson> oh, just not available upstream
[23:10] <calc> yea
[23:10] <cjwatson> ok, I'll install it tomorrow and try it out for a few things then
[23:11] <cjwatson> slangasek: I gather that /etc/fstab thing got fixed? sorry about that, that was my fault
[23:11] <cjwatson> very impressive bug, not the sort of thing I'd ever have thought of in advance
[23:11] <slangasek> cjwatson: I was only peripherally involved, but I saw that mario and pitti came up with a solution for alpha-4, yes
[23:12] <asac> cjwatson: from what i remember the fix was rather a quick-fix .... provided by mario .. so you or evand probably want to look into a good solution still ;)
[23:13] <cjwatson> yeah, it's not perfect but will do for now
[23:14] <cjwatson> ok, milestoned bugs
[23:14] <cjwatson> (brief pause while I look up the list)
[23:14] <cjwatson> calc: are the OOo ones blocked on upstream, or fixable in current packages?
[23:15] <cjwatson> asac: n-m/resolvconf (256480)?
[23:15] <calc> cjwatson: iirc they should all be fixed when i make the rc1 upload
[23:16] <cjwatson> bryce: keypad lock button? (91056)
[23:16] <calc> cjwatson: i haven't verified whether it would be done with beta2, but then beta2 has no translations yet
[23:16] <asac> cjwatson: i have a patch for that. actually i have two patches, whether we need the more complex one relies on whether we want to use the ifupdown backend (eni)
[23:16] <bryce> looking
[23:17] <asac> cjwatson: but more on that during "other business"
[23:17] <bryce> odd, thought that was fixed
[23:17] <cjwatson> up to you to mark it as such if it is :)
[23:18] <bryce> ah looks like just that bdmurray typo'd - said it was fixed when he meant WASN'T fixed
[23:19] <bryce> I'll look into it more.  not sure it's critical enough to be a milestone bug, and I suspect it's probably an issue in gnome rather than X, but I'll dig into it
[23:19] <cjwatson> I have a few intrepid-targeted bugs: germinate is putting apt in the wrong seed and we need to figure out what to do (254042), oem-config is screwed (several bugs), and there's something busted in encrypted LVM
[23:20] <evand> hrm
[23:21] <cjwatson> I don't think any of the other intrepid-targeted bugs need discussion here at the moment, but I have that on my standing agenda now so try to give them a bit of gardening before the next meeting
[23:21] <cjwatson> sponsorship queue
[23:22] <cjwatson> I think mdz sent out a mail to indicate that all Canonical distro team staff with upload privileges should be spending an hour a week on the sponsorship queue (less if the queue is empty or if there's really nothing you can sponsor)
[23:22] <cjwatson> talk to me if this is going to be a major problem; usually sponsorship pays back the time spent eventually
[23:22] <TheMuso> Hrm I don't remember seeing that, will have to have a look for it.
[23:22] <cjwatson> he may not have sent it yet; we've discussed it and he's going to
[23:22] <bryce> cjwatson: that keyboard bug is low priority and has been around for quite a while (I have looked at it live with brian a couple times).  I've dropped the milestone but will leave it assigned to me.  It's not a keyboard hotplug issue.
[23:22] <cjwatson> bryce: ok, thanks
[23:23] <TheMuso> Ok thats fine then.
[23:23] <cjwatson> for those who have managed to remain unaware of it despite Daniel's pings, the queue is at http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
[23:24] <slangasek> so it's suggested that we pick through that list ourselves now, rather than waiting for dholbach to farm them out to sponsors?
[23:24] <cjwatson> I'll give an amnesty this time round, but for next meeting, please expect to be asked about anything old with your name against it in that queue; sometimes we may want to drop it or assign to somebody else
[23:24] <cjwatson> slangasek: no, dholbach will still be assigning it out, but there's some concern that it's not getting done despite assignment
[23:24]  * slangasek nods
[23:24] <cjwatson> and I want to make sure it does get done, since it's important in retaining contributors
[23:25] <slangasek> I had a run where mine aren't getting done, but now I'm caught up and haven't gotten any new sponsorship assignments in the past few weeks
[23:25] <slangasek> maybe that means dholbach gave up on me :/
[23:26]  * TheMuso notices a few he didn't know about... Will attend to them today/tomorrow.
[23:26] <cjwatson> I'm hoping we can get into a routine of checking them weekly
[23:26] <cjwatson> I plan to myself, I have a few there
[23:26] <cjwatson> jono pointed out that an hour a week of Canonical's uploaders comes out to roughly one full-time person's worth
[23:27] <cjwatson> which I think ought to be pretty useful
[23:27] <cjwatson> ok, was there anything in activity reports that needs discussion here, bearing in mind that my e-mail is down? :-/
[23:28] <slangasek> well, I broke pam this morning
[23:28] <slangasek> then I fixed it
[23:28] <slangasek> so don't upgrade to the wrong version :)
[23:29] <cjwatson> asac: you mentioned network-manager and /e/n/i
[23:29] <asac> 1. a broadband provider database with a NM wizard was released this week. i am working closely with the author to flash out any rough edges, but since its young i expect that we need a feature freeze exception for this great new feature
[23:30] <asac> an initial test version is available in: https://edge.launchpad.net/~kaijanmaki/+archive
[23:30] <asac> you might need the https://edge.launchpad.net/~network-manager/+archive as well in your sources
[23:30] <asac> s/broadband/mobile broadband/
[23:32] <asac> 2. i managed to get the eni backend in a usable state. the problem with that is that using that together with ifupdown installed can cause issues
[23:32] <asac> in particular that we end up having two wpa_supplicant instances running for interfaces configured to use wpa- stanzas
[23:32] <cjwatson> asac: we don't need an FF exception yet ;-)
[23:33] <cjwatson> I'm really, really scared of n-m conflicting with ifupdown
[23:33] <cjwatson> it opens a can of worms that we have managed to avoid so far
[23:33] <bryce> cjwatson: (btw kees is in channel now)
[23:34] <cjwatson> it seems worth going to some lengths to avoid that; for instance can we just have ifupdown ignore wpa- stanzas?
[23:34] <asac> cjwatson: one option would be to put the new backend to a separate binary package that then conflicts with ifupdown, but which we dont install by default for now
[23:34] <liw> if ifupdown and n-m conflict, and n-m is unable to bring up the interface, things are going to get ugly
[23:35] <kees> maybe when n-m doesn't think I'm offline with my bridge on VLAN interfaces... :)
[23:37] <asac> cjwatson: making ifupdown ignoring wpa- stanzas would mean that ifupdown cannot handle wpa anymore
[23:37] <asac> kees: what kind of setup is that? have you tried to do the same with 0.7?
[23:38] <kees> asac: 0.7 is what started causing my problems.
[23:38] <asac> kees: true. most likely because it ignores /etc/network/interfaces atm
[23:38] <kees> asac: I have eth0 split onto multiple tagged VLANs.  I've also got a br0 set up on one of them for bridged kvm to work
[23:38] <kees> asac: ah-ha
[23:38] <asac> whereas 0.6 was forced to expose "always-online" when anything was configured there
[23:40] <asac> anyway. i see that people are two scared about replacing ifupdown by default. thus i suggest to do two ifupdown backends:
[23:40] <asac> 1. a simple one that sets all devices configured there to "not-managed"
[23:40] <asac> 2. the real backend that tries to provide legacy support
[23:40] <asac> with 1. being installed by default, but 2. conflicting with ifupdown
[23:40] <cjwatson> 1. corresponds roughly to what we did before, although we were slightly finer-grained
[23:41] <asac> how were we finer-grained?
[23:42] <asac> cjwatson: in 0.6 we ignored all interfaces that are configured in /etc/network/interfaces and pretended "always-online" ... in 0.7 we would just refuse to manage those interfaces through NM ... seems like the same granularity to me.
[23:42] <cjwatson> we didn't ignore 'inet dhcp' for instance
[23:43] <cjwatson> depends on your definition of "configured"
[23:43] <asac> cjwatson: we ignore that since gutsy
[23:43] <asac> in feisty auto inet dhcp was still managed, but we dont do that anymore
[23:44] <cjwatson> oh, I completely forgot about the ifblacklist_migrate stuff, sorry, you're right
[23:44] <asac> remember, we have that migfration thing
[23:44] <cjwatson> in that case I like your suggestion
[23:44] <asac> good. actually if its just the system-config plugin that conflicts with ifupdown we can easily decide what to use by default
[23:45] <cjwatson> yes, that gives us a good deal more flexibility
[23:45] <cjwatson> ok
[23:45] <cjwatson> kees: what was the item you wanted to bring up?
[23:45] <kees> procps has carried an ever-growing collection of ubuntu-specific sysctl settings.  Recently, Debian introduced the idea of /etc/sysctl.d for packages to install their own defaults.
[23:45] <kees> I'd like to move the Ubuntu sysctls from /etc/sysctl.conf into separate /etc/sysctl.d/ files, but I have been thinking this should maybe be a separate package, instead of continuing the "patch against procps" way things have been going.
[23:45] <kees> I'd like to use "sysctl-ubuntu" (and have procps depend on it).  Other packages (for example, wine) would like to set sysctls too, so they could follow the naming convention and use something like "sysctl-lowmem" (for wine and dosemu).
[23:45] <kees> Does this sound right, or should I continue to just keep the sysctl files in procps where they've always lived?
[23:47] <slangasek> kees: any (overarching) reason these sysctl changes are unsuitable for submission to Debian?
[23:47] <cjwatson> sysctl-ubuntu sounds a bit like etc-ubuntu
[23:47] <kees> slangasek: Debian appears to follow a policy of not actually setting anything in sysctl.conf
[23:47] <kees> slangasek: it's just filled with commented examples
[23:47] <slangasek> ah
[23:48] <slangasek> any reason not to change these values in the kernel package, then? :)
[23:48] <kees> slangasek: push-back from the kernel team, and higher discoverability
[23:48] <slangasek> ok
[23:48] <kees> I'm okay with keeping in procps (I actually have this merge prepared) but figured I should ask about it, since it seemed kind of modular
[23:49] <kees> honestly, things like the inotify bump should go into tracker's package.
[23:49] <kees> but things like network and process security don't have an obvious home
[23:49] <cjwatson> I prefer "core" things being in procps, personally, though I only peripherally care
[23:50]  * slangasek agrees on both counts
[23:50] <kees> okay, sounds good to me.  I'd already started a kind of numbering-convention, and I can move stuff around as needed.
[23:51] <cjwatson> we do have a lot of gross stuff in there, and even worse it's architecture-specific
[23:51] <kees> I'll toss the inotify stuff at tracker, and leave the rest in procps, but broken out into files.
[23:51] <cjwatson> so I'm all for it being cleaned up a bit
[23:51] <kees> cjwatson: only 1 thing is arch-specific (ppc)
[23:51] <cjwatson> yeah, I know, I'm afraid that bit is my fault
[23:51] <kees> it'll be much more clean in separate files, that's for sure.  I'll go flush that merge in a few minutes then.  thanks!
[23:55] <cjwatson> as other business, I thought I should also give a summary of what I/we've been doing this week: getting back from holiday etc., reviewing the 2008 strategic plan (all of Monday!), some UDS and sprint planning, talking about the sponsorship queue and code review, going through our current commercial engagements, helping kirkland out with a bunch of installer work (iscsi, ecryptfs, landscape), and giving LP 3.0 development ...
[23:55] <cjwatson> ... priority feedback to kiko
[23:56] <cjwatson> any other other business?
[23:56] <bryce> yes
[23:56] <kirkland> yeah, a big fat public thanks from /me to cjwatson ;-)
[23:56] <cjwatson> bryce: go ahead
[23:57] <bryce> I'm nearing the end of my 3-month stint for meeting minutes author (1 meeting to go), so am looking forward to handing off the duty to a new soul
[23:57] <cjwatson> well remembered that man
[23:57] <bryce> (also I guess this is where we'd talk about new meeting times as well)
[23:57]  * TheMuso looks. Its gone that fast? Wow!
[23:58] <cjwatson> IIRC we had a proposal that involved a standard rotation, so I'll dig that out
[23:58] <james_w> I have an item as well when this one is dispensed with
[23:58] <bryce> cjwatson: sounds good.
[23:59] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: wasn't it -8 hours each time?
[23:59] <cjwatson> for the sake of time in this meeting, please can somebody volunteer by e-mail to me by next week, otherwise I'll nominate somebody
[23:59] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje: I think so