[00:00] <cjwatson> ok, please try to make some progress on at least the information gathering part of that when you can, and update the spec with comments
[00:00] <cjwatson> we'll need to move on
[00:00] <cjwatson> bryce:
[00:00] <calc> ok
[00:00] <cjwatson> calc: thanks
[00:00] <bryce> Here's my blueprints --
[00:00] <bryce> xorg-input-hotplug:  DONE.  Finished up docs + testing.  Yay!
[00:00] <bryce> mouse-extra-buttons:  DONE.
[00:00] <bryce> xorg-options-editor: DEPLOYMENT.  Needs promotion to main.  http://bryceharrington.org/ubuntu/ScreenRes/screens-3.png
[00:00] <bryce> xorg-ctrl-alt-backspace:  POSTPONED to intrepid+1.  (Still disagreements)
[00:00] <bryce> x-testing-infrastructure:  Not FF critical, but some progress.  3 of 7 tasks done.
[00:00] <bryce> console-setup:  (Forgot what needs done?)
[00:00] <Riddell> I'm assuming this channel isn't going to be free for the Kubuntu meeting due in a minute
[00:00] <bryce> Other FF-critical non-blueprint development work --
[00:00] <bryce> Xorg apport hooks:  DONE.  Some testing remains.
[00:00] <bryce> Redo bulletproof-x to not depend on displayconfig-gtk:  IN PROGRESS. Fairly easy change, but I'll need a FFe for it.
[00:00] <cjwatson> Riddell: sorry, can you give us 10 minutes?
[00:00] <bryce> We're also awaiting releases of late drivers (-fglrx, -ati) and Xorg 1.5
[00:00] <bryce> tjaalton also would like a FFe for a -synaptics upload
[00:01] <tjaalton> howdy ho
[00:01] <tjaalton> synaptics should be ready in a minute
[00:01] <cjwatson> bryce: console-setup> I think not on your plate any more - it's just the translations work
[00:01] <bryce> cjwatson: ok thanks.  It's still assigned to me so I figured I ought to mention.
[00:02] <cjwatson> feel free to unassign that
[00:02] <bryce> I don't think I can, but I'll give it a try
[00:02] <Riddell> ** Kubuntu meeting moved to #kubuntu-devel **
[00:02] <cjwatson> Riddell: sorry, and thanks
[00:02] <bryce> cjwatson: nope, don't have permission
[00:03] <cjwatson> bryce: I've done it
[00:03] <bryce> thx
[00:03] <bryce> the -fglrx lateness is probably the biggest issue.  It probably won't make the release in October, so may need an SRU.
[00:04] <asac> bryce: no 3d for ati in release
[00:04] <asac> wow
[00:04] <bryce> for -ati we're shipping a pretty recent git snapshot, but I'd be more comfortable shipping a released version
[00:04] <cjwatson> bryce: please file MIR bugs for the main promotions for xorg-options-editor with some commentary so that we have something to work on
[00:04] <asac> thats a huge regression :) ... at least for those that are struck
[00:04] <bryce> cjwatson: ok will do
[00:05] <bryce> asac: yeah...  there will be much gnashing of teeth.  ATI is working on it as their top priority.  We'll see.
[00:05] <asac> bryce: i have a machine with X1950 ... and i cannot even watch videos without frame dropping
[00:06] <asac> on that
[00:06] <tjaalton> X.org 7.4 will be released "within a week", so there's still time for ati to get their act together..
[00:06] <asac> (with radeonhd)
[00:06] <tjaalton> asac: use -ati
[00:06] <cjwatson> bryce: thanks, perhaps you could come to the release team meeting on Friday and fill us in on more detail ther
[00:06] <cjwatson> e
[00:06] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje:
[00:06] <ArneGoetje> language-selector: uploaded into archive; one bug to fix: l-p-{gnome|kde) does not get pulled in anymore, needs code rewrite to fix, will do this during the next days.
[00:06] <bryce> cjwatson: ok
[00:06] <slangasek> I'm not sanguine about the notion of pushing in -fglrx as an SRU, with no working version at all in the release; but yes, we can talk about that later
[00:07] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje: any language pack structure changes in that, or just application code?
[00:07] <asac> tjaalton: ill try. last time it didnt work with anything else than radeonhd iirc
[00:07] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: just application code
[00:07] <tjaalton> asac: pre-hardy?
[00:07] <asac> tjaalton: not sure. since fglrx was usually available i think it was in this cycle where i tried
[00:07] <tjaalton> asac: -ati in intrepid should support 3d for it
[00:07] <asac> good ... ill see
[00:07] <tjaalton> er, mesa
[00:09] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje: how have you been getting on with the CJK font work carried over from last cycle? I know you've still been doing bits to it on and off
[00:09] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: not finished. language-selector took more time than expected
[00:10] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: I still have some updates that need to get in before it could be released
[00:10] <bryce> asac: -ati has been improving rapidly since ATI released documentation.
[00:11] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje: ok, thanks
[00:11] <asac> bryce: that would be too good to be true ;)
[00:11] <cjwatson> asac:
[00:11] <asac> 3g-networking-intrepid (quite good, but as i said before it wouldn't make much sense to stop syncing new snapshots after FF); things to happen until this is finalized: mobile broadband wizard and its provider database to get into main; gsm/cdma probing code for devices that are only recognized as v.250 (upstream decision pending whether this should go to NM or hal); gathering final feedback (especially for the broadband provider database that wil
[00:11] <asac> flash-experience-intrepid (good progress): beta status for: better description (webservice needs deployment) and plugin alternatives (UI needs to be polished/finalized). good progress: anti-flash-detection-kit (some difficulties to get the event to the proper listener in the browser); at risk: adobe offers deb on their website (adobe will support ubuntu in Flash 10, but debs on their site are at risk); not a feature, but a bug: apturil in UI thre
[00:11] <asac> firefox-kde-integration-intrepid (deferred): no cycles to implement. real solution should go into upstream for 3.1 (QT support!! yay!).
[00:11] <asac> (no spec) safe-ffox-upgrade (done/needs real live testing): implementation appears to work well and awaits release with the next ubufox upload
[00:11] <asac> (no spec/maybe flash experience) nspluginwrapper for i386: finalizing QA on 1.1.0; upload didnt happen because we decided to go for the latest upstream development instead of 1.0. upload should happen any minute
[00:12] <asac> (no spec) branding-package-split: working with max attention; unless something really bad pops up this will happen during this week
[00:12] <asac> sorry for the "longer lines" ... but i thought i write things down as there would definitly be questions
[00:13] <cjwatson> you need to use splitlong.pl or something :)
[00:13] <slangasek> 3g-networking-intrepid: what's our end-point, as far as snapshot syncing?  Is there an upstream "final release" somewhere on the schedule?
[00:13] <cjwatson> "database that wil"
[00:13] <asac> slangasek: the end point is when upstream starts to do intrusive changes again
[00:13] <cjwatson> and "apturil in UI thre"
[00:13] <asac> slangasek: which will happen when they switch to modem manager for dialup connections
[00:13] <asac> i keep my eyes open that no too intrusive things reach us
[00:14] <asac> from there on i would cherry pick bugs
[00:14] <slangasek> asac: so we'll be releasing with "the last snapshot before things become disruptive"?
[00:14] <asac> yes. and then cherry picking on top
[00:14] <asac> i'd say that we stop after beta in any case
[00:15] <asac> cjwatson: ... gathering final feedback (especially for the broadband  provider database that will ship by the wizard) during beta phase.
[00:15] <asac> ... but a bug: apturil in UI thread
[00:16] <asac> cjwatson: that should complete this?
[00:16] <cjwatson> oh, that was it, ok
[00:16] <asac> yes
[00:17] <cjwatson> all right, thanks all; overall I'm pretty pleased with the amount we've got done, let's just try to get the last few bits and pieces in place for feature freeze and then try to get this heap o' junk into a releasable state ;-)
[00:17] <bryce> :-)
[00:18] <cjwatson> we've run late, so I'll not bother with stuff like the sponsorship queue today, although please try to keep up your attention to that when you find a spare hour
[00:18] <cjwatson> any other business?
[00:19] <TheMuso> no
[00:20] <slangasek> nope :)
[00:20]  * doko is heading for bife de chorizo
[00:20]  * asac is proud that he cleared his queue last week ;)
[00:21] <asac> doko: sounds tasty
[00:21] <asac> enjoy
[00:21] <cjwatson> doko: lucky you
[00:21] <cjwatson> ok, adjourned
[00:21] <bryce> thanks
[00:21] <liw> thanks
[00:21] <evand> thanks
[00:21] <doko> bye
[00:21] <ArneGoetje> thanks
[00:21] <slangasek> doko: heh, are you still in .ar?
[00:21] <ogra> thanks
[00:21] <slangasek> thanks, all
[00:22] <james_w> thanks all
[00:22] <TheMuso> thanks
[00:22]  * TheMuso gets breakfast.
[00:25] <doko> slangasek: yes, went skiing today =)
[00:26]  * slangasek looks longingly at the bife de chorizo, a continent away
[00:26] <doko> will send a photo ;p
[00:29] <slangasek> cruel
[13:00] <davidm> Good morning
[13:00]  * ogra waves
[13:00] <davidm> #startmeeting
[13:00]  * yannick_d waves
[13:01] <lool> davidm: MootBot isn't very alive these days
[13:01] <davidm> Hmm, mootbot seems to be dead
[13:01] <davidm> Oh well
[13:01] <davidm> I'll bug the scribes about it later.
[13:02] <ogra> (if they are not as dead as their bug)
[13:02] <davidm> OK first topic and I'll do stuff as if mootbot was online.
[13:02] <davidm> [topic] lool to purchase USB web camera
[13:02] <davidm> This is closed, I know lool bought one.
[13:02] <lool> Done: purchased the dumbest Logitech one which is supported under Ubuntu
[13:02] <davidm> [topic] lool+davidm+... test new version of Ekiga (2.9)
[13:03]  * ogra hasnt found one on ubuntu that isnt apart from the Q1 one
[13:03] <lool> (Might purchase another one with HD support, depending on whether the Q1U's webcam is supproted with 2.6.27)
[13:03] <ogra> it definately isnt with the latest 2.6.26
[13:03] <lool> We did some Ekiga testing last Monday, but we completely failed testing video; we only got audio working after great struggling
[13:03] <lool> And that was under i386
[13:03] <ogra> there is a driver from the manufaturer i wanted to try though
[13:03] <davidm> This was harder, we were not able to get this to work well between two PC's audio only.
[13:04] <ogra> but freeze came in my way
[13:04] <yannick_d> lool, can you explain what was the issue?
[13:04] <lool> ogra: 2.6.27 lands many uvc support changes
[13:04] <ogra> lool, i know
[13:04] <ogra> and madwifi as well
[13:04] <ogra> both doesnt work on the Q1 atm
[13:05] <davidm> yannick_d, we had two issues, one I think is not an issue now, one still is
[13:05] <lool> yannick_d: We had some; one thing is that we were behind a hotel's nat, and davidm was behind a second nat; despite this audio would work, so it seemed to work
[13:05] <yannick_d> ok there was a NAT issue. and?
[13:05] <lool> yannick_d: We also probably lacked a working sip account for video; we never managed one to one calls, only conf calls to a central place
[13:05] <davidm> yannick_d, I was double natted
[13:06] <davidm> yannick_d, do you know of a server lool and I can get accounts on that passes video?
[13:06] <persia> Does ekiga.net not do that?
[13:06] <ogra> doesnt the ekiga default server ?
[13:06] <lool> yannick_d: I also tried calling telephones with "tel:" and actual phone numbers with my home sip account at my ISP, and it didn't work
[13:06] <yannick_d> davidm, a conference server with video? no there is not such thing for free AFAIK
[13:07] <lool> yannick_d: I'm not sure how they are supposed to look like, but the SIP INVITES looked like INVITE tel:1234@freephonie.net
[13:07] <yannick_d> lool, the tel: URI might be a problem...
[13:07] <lool> I thought it would simply be INVITE 1234
[13:07] <lool> yannick_d: What's the correct way to enter a PSTN?
[13:07] <yannick_d> lool, try sip:1234@freephonie.net instead
[13:08] <lool> Didn't manage to get this working either (this is what was going out when I simply typed a pstn with this sip account as the default)
[13:08] <lool> I tried with and without + and international or local format
[13:09] <yannick_d> lool, this works with freephonie.net, i have an account here too
[13:09] <lool> But then, some days it's broken; I didn't have my N810 with me to confirm it was working this day
[13:09] <lool> yannick_d: Could have been a downtime of the SIP thing
[13:09] <lool> It was refusing calls with some 4xx codes
[13:10] <lool> In the testing, we also discovered that davidm's webcam could be supported under hardy and isn't; this requires backporting a simple driver fix for ov56x-jpeg
[13:10] <davidm> yannick_d, is there a way to make video calls between lool and I?
[13:10] <lool> davidm: Now there is, because we're at two locations it should be easier
[13:10] <yannick_d> lool, for testingpurpose, please try using ekiga.net sip server and pc-2-pc calls first. Using a commercial PSTN bridge is another issue which brings stuff like number format issue in the way...
[13:11] <lool> yannick_d: We tried using ekiga.net accounts as well, but only saw the invites /sometimes/ and never managed an audio call in this wey
[13:11] <lool> I suspect our network setup was completely unusual and a bad way to test
[13:11] <yannick_d> davidm, to test video, you both might register an account on ekiga.net for free, and try to call each other.
[13:11] <davidm> yannick_d, OK we will try again before next week now that I am back in my usual location.
[13:12] <yannick_d> you could also test the avahi support, if you are both in the same LAN
[13:12] <lool> yannick_d: We spent too much time fighting webcam drivers and network and sip accounts on monday that we exhausted our testing time and we had other things to do for FF, but I'm happy to /continue/ testing in more regular conditions
[13:12] <lool> yannick_d: Ah, how is this enabled?
[13:12] <yannick_d> lool, it is automated
[13:12] <davidm> yannick_d, we got text support working using avahi but not audio and video
[13:12] <lool> yannick_d: How do you see the other people around?
[13:13] <yannick_d> lool, in the roster, under "network neighbours"
[13:13] <lool> yannick_d: I tried setting it up with empathy and telepathy on monday, but we could only send text messages; we didn't manage to call with salyt
[13:13] <lool> *salut
[13:13] <lool> (we also did some quick telepathy testing)
[13:13] <yannick_d> lool, sip support in EMpathy sucks now...
[13:13] <lool> Yeah, sofiasip's settings didn't match my expectations
[13:14] <yannick_d> the buddy list can not contains sip URI in EMpathy last time i tested it.
[13:14] <lool> yannick_d: So I think we should pursue testing and fix the webcam driver issue we discovered
[13:14] <yannick_d> I've been able to have a working audio+video call ekiga 2.9<-> Empathy
[13:14] <lool> yannick_d: If you're in France, we could do tests together too
[13:15] <davidm> lool, agreed, we will continue testing.
[13:15] <yannick_d> we aware, empathy use the h263-1998 video codec
[13:15] <lool> yannick_d: I expect to be quite busy today and tomorrow still, but next week is fine
[13:15] <davidm> [action] lool+davidm continue testing new version of Ekiga (2.9)
[13:15] <yannick_d> You can ask help on the ekiga mailling list too, like if you have problem with your nat etc. I'm there too
[13:16] <davidm> OK, that was all of the old business
[13:16] <lool> yannick_d: Frankly this was a one time bizarre setup because we had no other way to work this day
[13:16] <yannick_d> ok
[13:16] <davidm> [topic] FF status
[13:16] <lool> (I was routing davidm over my laptop's wired intf towards the hotel's wifi...)
[13:16] <yannick_d> i'm not sure i'll be able to join for the next week meeting: i must go to work and no internet there...
[13:16] <ogra> just stop working then :P
[13:17] <davidm> Is there anything we need to review now here?
[13:17] <lool> yannick_d: We can chat together anytime, not just during meetings
[13:17] <lool> yannick_d: If that's mroe convenient, we can test ekiga over the WE together
[13:17] <yannick_d> lool, where?
[13:17] <lool> yannick_d: In #ubuntu-mobile?
[13:18] <yannick_d> ok
[13:18] <davidm> lool, any FF issues we should/need to cover now?
[13:18] <lool> yannick_d: I'm lool@ekiga.net, and you can probably easily find an email for me
[13:18] <yannick_d> ok, thx i'll contact you
[13:18] <lool> davidm: Well I think we had plenty of packages to push before FF
[13:19] <lool> I know persia/stevenk/ogra were working on *-default-settings pacakges
[13:19] <lool> Are both of these pushed?
[13:19] <ogra> yep, pushed and done
[13:19] <lool> ogra was to look at pidgin-maemo versus empathy versus pidgin IIRC
[13:19] <ogra> i'D like to do some minir theme changes for mobile but artwork deadline in in a month
[13:19] <lool> This might have implied pushing pidgin-maemo if we wanted a chance to keep it in intrepid
[13:20] <lool> Anyone pushed pidgin-maemo?
[13:20] <persia> Big FF things are 1) we don't have an IM client, and 2) we need to look at media players (unless I missed something)
[13:20] <ogra> i didnt manage all of them yet but apart from some security issues with empathy in IRC i found it quite good as replacement
[13:20] <ogra> i'll finish that off today/tomorrow
[13:21] <lool> ogra: Ok, then perhaps send your analysis to the list?
[13:21] <davidm> ogra, does empathy support the various IM protocols?
[13:21] <ogra> if i need freeze exceptions i'll deal with them myself
[13:21] <persia> pidgin-maemo and moblin-media-browser-plugin are still on REVU, which makes me think they didn't get pushed.
[13:21] <ogra> davidm, the same set pidgin does
[13:21] <lool> davidm: It does even wrap libpurple
[13:21] <davidm> OK, thanks
[13:21] <lool> (which is pidgin's lib)
[13:21] <lool> But empathy was pushed back for intrepid in the desktop team due to usability issues
[13:22] <StevenK> I'd like to not use moblin-media if I can.
[13:22] <lool> I think you're not alone
[13:22] <ogra> lool, we can build from universe if we want it
[13:22] <lool> I'll push elisa updates
[13:22] <ogra> so thats a non issue
[13:23] <lool> I'm late for pushing elisa (new upstream releases and it's in main) but had too many last minute things fall on my plate before FF to manage yesterday
[13:23] <ogra> and i didnt find it worse than pidgin with fullscreen windows
[13:23] <ogra> where is the UNR stuff at ?
[13:23] <lool> Yeah, exactly what I was typing :)
[13:23] <ogra> :)
[13:23] <lool> StevenK: I think you were pushing UNR packages
[13:24] <davidm> StevenK, you here?
[13:24] <lool> StevenK: how many/which packages did you look at, and what's the status?
[13:24] <lool> StevenK: I think njpatel rolled a new netbook-remix-launcher tarball to address some concerns I raised and matching the package name
[13:25] <lool> Hmm we had StevenK a minute ago
[13:25] <davidm> I have an email from StevenK with FF status: * UNR packages  This is four packages, with all but one of them in okay shape. I suspect this can be massaged into one FFe, too.
[13:26] <davidm> So they missed FF
[13:26] <lool> It's late on his side thouhg
[13:26] <davidm> I wonder where StevenK is, he was around a few minutes ago.
[13:27] <ogra> davidm, its all universe so a bit easier to deal with exception wise
[13:27] <Hobbsee> ogra: as in, no one will notice, if the freeze gets violated?  :)
[13:27] <lool> davidm: The only thing which worries me is making StevenK push UNR packages versus working on the images, but he sent out a link to an image today
[13:27] <StevenK> I'm here, my wife called me away
[13:28] <lool> StevenK: Cool, so what is the problematic package?  what needs to be done on the others to get them in intrepid?
[13:28] <ogra> (actually i assume we culd make a deal with MOTU, review one package for MOTU, get one exception granted or some wuch ... so all of use benefit ;) )
[13:28] <persia> Hobbsee: No, as in it won't break CD builds and so it is likely to be approved with a convincing reason, rather than a convincing reason + several months of testing.
[13:28] <ogra> Hobbsee, ^^^
[13:28] <StevenK> lool: The launcher
[13:28] <Hobbsee> ogra: now there's an idea... :)
[13:28] <persia> ogra: It *really* doesn't work that way :p
[13:28] <StevenK> lool: The other 3 look okay
[13:28] <ogra> persia, but it *could* ;=
[13:28] <Hobbsee> persia: no, but it might be a good idea...
[13:28] <Hobbsee> persia: that's true
[13:29] <ogra> it raises MOTU manpower and helps us as well
[13:29] <persia> Right.  And this is why corruption and graft always win :(
[13:29] <ogra> heh
[13:29] <lool> StevenK: Ok; I have a fairly good idea of status of launcher; concerning the others did you push them to REVU/got them reviewed already?
[13:29] <StevenK> lool: No, I will be doing that tomorrow.
[13:30] <lool> ogra: IOW bribery
[13:30] <StevenK> I suspect they need repackaging and then uploading
[13:30] <lool> bribery with free reviews :)
[13:30] <ogra> well, bribery the community benefits from
[13:30] <ogra> its a win win deal
[13:31] <ogra> we could level it out like 10:1 ... or so
[13:31] <davidm> OK we are 1/2 through our meeting time.
[13:31] <davidm> lool, anything left on the FF topic that we need to cover?
[13:32] <lool> davidm: Please give priority to image building for alpha 5 before UNR packaging if that's suitable
[13:32] <davidm> if not we should move on the other status issues.
[13:32] <davidm> lool, agreed
[13:32] <lool> StevenK: Unless you think both are almost done :)
[13:32] <lool> I don't think we have anything more to discuss on FF; of course we might discover plenty of stuff with the images
[13:32] <davidm> [topic] status of intrepid tasks: merge of ppa, installer, images etc.  * StevenK status
[13:33] <lool> Did I mention I pushed modest?
[13:33] <davidm> lool, you did not
[13:33] <lool> I pushed modest to Ubuntu and my ppa
[13:33] <davidm> good, I'm happy to hear that
[13:33] <lool> A couple of hours after FF,
[13:33]  * persia suspects the PPA to have been redundant
[13:33] <davidm> StevenK, how goes image building?
[13:33] <lool> It's relatively broken due to missing icons and strings, but that I can probably fix
[13:33] <StevenK> davidm: The image is up.
[13:33] <StevenK> But it's broken.
[13:34] <lool> persia: I think not, I don't see modest in the repos yet and I mailed cgregan for him to take a look
[13:34] <persia> StevenK: Broken beyond that the default session doesn't start?
[13:35] <StevenK> persia: Nope, that was it
[13:35] <lool> davidm: Re: FF, I'd like to note that we're only at 2.6.26 for lpia because it's a separate source
[13:35] <lool> Need to talk to chickencutclass
[13:35] <ogra> *if* .27 will be used
[13:35] <StevenK> I mentioned that earlier.
[13:35] <persia> The -rt kernel is also stuck at 2.6.26, so we're not alone in kernel version history.
[13:35] <lool> ogra: In lpia or in general?
[13:35] <davidm> StevenK, what remains to be done on image building?  Anything?
[13:35] <ogra> currently the status is that there will be a call for testing as i understood
[13:36] <davidm> We will have to stick on 2.6.26 for lpia
[13:36] <ogra> but there is still an opportunity that it might be rolled back
[13:36] <ogra> davidm, and differ from ubuntu ?
[13:36] <lool> davidm: Why is that?
[13:36] <davidm> We need the poulbo graphics driver and that is coming from an outside source
[13:36] <ogra> hmm
[13:36] <ogra> thats tricky
[13:36] <davidm>  I doubt at this late time I can get them to move
[13:37] <ogra> if work on .26 stops we'll miss out a lot
[13:37] <persia> Hrm.  Someone ought mention that to the thread on ubuntu-devel@ as part of arguments against movig to 2.6.27
[13:37] <davidm> I am having trouble getting the driver at all
[13:37] <ogra> (wifi on the Q1 doesnt work with .26 for example)
[13:37] <lool> davidm: Well we don't have it anyway
[13:37] <davidm> But we have a call later today to get info on this so it will have to wait until then.
[13:38] <lool> ogra: Yeah, wanted to test ath5k as well
[13:38] <ogra> .27 is supposed to have the necessary fixes for that wifi issue
[13:38] <ogra> lool, no need to, i had to resort to madwifi for it
[13:38] <ogra> it wont pick up IP/AP
[13:38] <lool> I wouldn't want us to have a different kernel version for lpia
[13:38] <StevenK> They have moved to .27
[13:38] <StevenK> I wouldn't either
[13:38] <lool> That seems really risky
[13:38] <ogra> .27 has massive fixes for ath5k
[13:39] <ogra> which wont be backported if ubuntu really switches
[13:39] <davidm> With the atom chip and it's graphics if we move and Intel does not supply a driver then we have no driver at all.
[13:39] <lool> I don't want to even think about a subsequent udev/hal update
[13:39] <ogra> so we'll lose here
[13:39] <lool> davidm: I guess we have vesa
[13:39] <ogra> heh
[13:40] <lool> I'm not sure it's that different from psb for our purposes...
[13:40] <davidm> True, that is about it, and that will not work for USG, they need the driver to work.
[13:40] <lool> Might even suspend better *cough*
[13:40] <ogra> but UNR needs clutter
[13:40] <ogra> and thus GL support
[13:40] <lool> Is USG going to base on intrepid?
[13:40] <lool> They maintain their own kernel anyway
[13:41] <davidm> lool, some work is.  They have to provide upgrades
[13:41] <davidm> Well technically I suppose we can have 2.6.27 and they can have 2.6.26 but that is a mess
[13:41] <lool> I agree we should make the poulsbo concern known in the 2.6.27 discussion, but it wont have any weight if we don't even ahve 2.6.26 drivers
[13:42] <davidm> That is a call later.
[13:42] <lool> It's no more a mess than us having .26 and Ubuntu having .27
[13:42] <ogra> davidm, "we" ?
[13:42] <ogra> ubuntu ?
[13:42] <ogra> or just mobile ?
[13:42] <davidm> mobile / USG
[13:42] <lool> Let's clarify tonight
[13:42] <davidm> yes
[13:42] <lool> I'll try to think of updating ubuntu-devel@ on this topic with psb debate
[13:43] <davidm> persia status of installer
[13:43] <persia> You know, it'd be best to also participate in the wider discussion.  Having two different kernels for two different architectures is bound to cause issues.
[13:43] <persia> The installer still doesn't install.  On the bright side, I know lots more about how the installer is supposed to work.
[13:43] <persia> I think I'm nearly there, but am currently chasing networking issues with the latest image.
[13:44] <davidm> OK
[13:44] <davidm> lool status of MIC merges?
[13:45] <lool> *done*!
[13:45] <davidm> :-)
[13:45] <lool> Would like to see a tarball release from them
[13:45] <lool> I've sent further comments on design of MIC and would be willing to provide a patch to move to / add intrepid platforms
[13:46] <davidm> So we need to get a tarball release from them and then can put fresh packages into Intrepid?
[13:46] <lool> But it's not really clear who leads what and whether this thing will evolve
[13:46] <lool> Well we don't strictly need it; we have about the same features as they do
[13:46] <ogra> would be cleanr though
[13:46] <lool> We developped more changes than they did
[13:46] <ogra> but require a FFe
[13:46] <lool> Yeah, it would be cleanup
[13:46] <lool> And it's not strictly needed
[13:47] <lool> What we would get are a cleaner base to patch on and some features like i18n
[13:47] <lool> But this is all minor or wishlist material
[13:47] <davidm> OK
[13:47] <lool> It's not like we're using MIC anyway
[13:47] <davidm> Very true.
[13:47] <persia> It's probably not worth an FFe, but would be nice for intrepid+1
[13:47] <lool> Sure, I'm the defacto MIC maintainer these days
[13:47] <davidm> ogra status?
[13:47] <lool> I'll update it if they release
[13:48] <davidm> lool, thanks
[13:48] <ogra> classmate: still fiddling with the gstreamer issue ETA tomorrow for hardy-proposed and SRU
[13:48] <ogra> touchpads: bug #261873 opened, discussed with bryce ... he agreed that it should eb fixed for release
[13:49] <davidm> ogra, how much left before classmate is put to bed do you think?
[13:49] <ogra> mobile: settings uploaded, creates a desktop like http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogra/ubuntu-mobile-intrepid.png, waiting for installer (depends on ubuntu user without password for autologin atm
[13:49] <ogra> )
[13:50] <ogra> davidm, i will always have to touch it from time to time until 8.04.2
[13:50] <ogra> for kernel security updates
[13:50] <davidm> OK
[13:50] <ogra> but thats all scripted on my side
[13:51] <ogra> so only some mins of work plus build time, testing and triggering elmo
[13:51] <davidm> ogra, is the process you use to generate images documented anywhere?  I know that cjwatson had a hard time making a working image in your absence
[13:51] <ogra> its only: execute ./cron.daily in the build tree
[13:51] <ogra> that will autobuild
[13:52] <ogra> i have done my last image in my own env but will take a look at antimony (which has a 1:1 copy of my system)
[13:52] <davidm> OK 8 minute warning
[13:52] <davidm> ogra thanks
[13:52] <davidm> last topic
[13:52] <ogra> i'd like to put a proposal out :)
[13:53] <davidm> ???
[13:53] <ogra> we should start collecting spec ideas for intrepid+1 asap on a wikipage
[13:53] <davidm> +1
[13:53] <cjwatson> it wasn't so hard, for the record; just startup problems
[13:53] <ogra> so we can follow the regular distro/spec process this time, now that the packages are sanely in the archive
[13:53] <davidm> I agree strongly
[13:53] <ogra> great
[13:54] <davidm> cjwatson, thanks for that, I just want to make sure we have it documented so it's not hard if it ever needs be done again. :-)
[13:54] <ogra> (i.e. al the requests for 1024x756 got me thining about inclusion of a sane patch for gtk for example... that needs preparation for a spec)
[13:54] <davidm> [topic] Switch claws with modest/libwpeditor libwpeditor-plus?
[13:55] <davidm> I think you all just about put this to bed last week?
[13:55] <lool> Hmm I pushed modest and libwpeditor+ to my ppa, but cgregan hadn't a change of testing them
[13:55] <lool> Also modest suffers from many issues such as missing strings and icons which render it quite ugly
[13:56] <davidm> but we have the possbility of choice if we need it?
[13:56] <lool> I think we need to defer discussion until a) I can address some of the issues b) other people can test it c) we test the images
[13:56] <davidm> 4 minute warning
[13:56] <davidm> lool, OK
[13:56] <lool> davidm: Yes exactly, the hurry was to get the packages pushed, they are now
[13:56] <davidm> thanks
[13:57] <davidm> I'll carry an acttion to review in future but not next week.
[13:57] <lool> Which reminds me of two other FF related issues which I usually report on: langpacks and xulrunner; we're still missing translations in intrepid AIUI and xulrunner I didn't merge
[13:57] <lool> I really need to tend to it now rather tahn later
[13:57] <davidm> [action] review modest and libwpeditor+ after lool has time to address some of its issues.
[13:57]  * ogra creates https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/IntrepidPlusOneSpecSuggestions
[13:57] <davidm> OK
[13:57] <lool> I poked cgregan to have an early look and work with me on solving the issues
[13:57] <davidm> ogra, thanks
[13:58] <davidm> lool, good enough
[13:58] <lool> ogra: Oh nobody told you the codename for intrepid+1?
[13:58] <davidm> lool, has it been announced?
[13:58] <lool> No :)
[13:58] <ogra> heh
[13:58] <lool> Which makes it even more fun to guess
[13:58] <davidm> :-)
[13:58] <davidm> OK almost out of time.
[13:59] <davidm> any last opens?
[13:59] <davidm> 1 minute warning
[13:59] <Hobbsee> the sky is falling!
[13:59] <lool> The jitty jamthund!
[14:00] <davidm> #endmeeting
[14:00] <davidm> Thanks everyone.
[14:00]  * persia doubts "jamthud"
[14:00]  * Hobbsee covers lool in jam.
[14:01] <lool> the jolly jumper!
[14:01] <lool> The jumpy jellyfish
[14:01]  * Hobbsee hums
[14:01] <lool> Or the jelly fish :)
[14:01] <Hobbsee> jolly jumbuck, i thought it was...
[14:02] <StevenK> Hah
[15:00] <persia> Who's here for the Java Meeting?
[15:00] <robilad> here
[15:00] <Koon> o/
[15:01] <Koon> the usual suspects :)
[15:01] <persia> :)
[15:01]  * persia hopes slytherin and doko might join
[15:01] <Koon> I /think/ doko is still in vacation.
[15:02] <persia> Could be.  He was at a meeting earlier.
[15:02] <persia> Anyway: Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting
[15:02] <cjwatson> see the foundations team meeting notes last night for some items relevant to Java
[15:02] <Koon> I see. /This/ kind of vacation.
[15:02] <persia> Nobody added anything, so nothing special to discuss.  We've just the RoadMap
[15:03]  * persia checks the Foundations Team meeting log
[15:03] <robilad> url?
[15:04] <persia> Seems that doko is looking at some of the continued changes to use default-jre(-headless), and may also be looking at making it more headless.
[15:04] <persia> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/08/27/%23ubuntu-meeting.html
[15:05] <persia> We may hear more next week.  On for other updates:
[15:05] <persia> robilad: Where are you on identifying tasks that need doing?
[15:05] <robilad> working my way through the maven pom system and trying to figure out a good way to automate that with aptitude
[15:06] <persia> Is there anything else non-maven that needs doing that would benefit from someone looking into it?
[15:06] <robilad> basically, when you use maven to build software it downloads many jars
[15:06] <robilad> and those come with a kind of descriptions, 'pom' files
[15:07] <robilad> which contain artifact ids
[15:07] <robilad> which could in theory be fed into aptitude etc. more or less automatically.
[15:07] <robilad> except that there are many little catches. ;)
[15:07] <robilad> but getting there.
[15:08] <persia> So a tool that can read .pom files and pass arguments to apt to tell it what to install?
[15:08] <robilad> well, to tell me what seems to have a package of sorts, and what hasn't
[15:08] <robilad> that's the one way to figure out what to do
[15:08] <Koon> robilad: feel free to add any of your thoughts to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Specs/MavenSupportSpec
[15:09] <robilad> the other one is to just install all jars in ubuntu, generate a list of packages mapping to each one of them, and then to see which jars in a build match
[15:09] <persia> Yeah, that feels definitely part of the maven stuff, but it's good :)
[15:09] <robilad> neither way is really perfect :/
[15:09] <robilad> and I'm doing the former as it should in theory just require a bit of shell scripting
[15:09] <robilad> ;)
[15:11] <Koon> we're still at the brainstorming stage for this maven support thing. Might be useful to schedule a session at next UDS on the subject (though I won't be coming there)
[15:11] <Koon> and make sure the (other) relevant persons can join.
[15:12] <persia> Koon: You'll be able to attend remotely, no?
[15:12] <Koon> persia: I'll definitely try to attend remotely to select sessions
[15:12] <Koon> but on the maven thing I'm more a catalyst than a specialist
[15:12] <persia> Koon: Excellent.  Just complain over VoIP if we're not loud enough.
[15:13] <Koon> and we are getting to a stage where specialists will be handy
[15:13] <persia> Right.  Let's jump ahead since we're on the topic: Koon: how is maven going?
[15:13] <slytherin> Koon: what is the status of your maven2 patching effort? Do you need any help? I may be able to lend a hand over weekend. I would rather do it in 5-6 hours stretch than in pieces.
[15:13] <Koon> the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Specs/MavenSupportSpec presents two alternatives
[15:14] <Koon> one is the maven2 jpp-patched (the fedora way)
[15:14] <Koon> the other is kaaloo's maven proxy system
[15:14] <Koon> the first alternative can theorically be tested using the packages in my PPA
[15:14] <Koon> (as described in the ubuntu-java email persia kindly resent on my behalf)
[15:14] <persia> Any update from kaaloo on how the proxy system is coming along?
[15:15] <Koon> nothing since Aug 12, but August might not be the busiest month for him.
[15:15] <Koon> my feeling is that it's a nice way around the problem, but I feat the complexity of its implementation
[15:16] <slytherin> persia how about moving Koon's package to java team ppa?
[15:16] <Koon> the jpp stuff is more hackish, maybe more work, but much simpler work.
[15:16] <Koon> i guess I could publish it there
[15:16] <Koon> (as a member of the team) ?
[15:16] <persia> slytherin: I don't see much advantage to one PPA over another.  PPAs can depend upon each other if required.
[15:17] <slytherin> Koon: yes, if you are member
[15:17] <Koon> anyway, it's probably more useful to push the packaging to the team bzr
[15:17] <slytherin> persia: The reason I am asking that is anyone else from team can modify and the reupload the package
[15:18] <persia> slytherin: Ah, with a single source for testing.  Don't let my ambivalence block something you find useful to get something done :)
[15:18] <slytherin> :-)
[15:18] <Koon> slytherin: i'll push the current maven2 packaging mods to the team bzr
[15:18] <slytherin> Koon: next task for you then, move your package to team ppa and add the ppas link on your spec page
[15:19] <slytherin> Koon: let's setup bzr once we have more than 2 people working on it.
[15:20]  * slytherin secretly dislikes bzr
[15:20] <persia> Well, pushing the bzr stuff along with the PPA makes sense, as it keeps things together.
[15:20] <Koon> OK, I will do a little cleanup, push the packaging to team BZR and the resulting package in team PPA
[15:20] <persia> Anything else for maven?
[15:21] <Koon> nothing on my side.
[15:21] <persia> slytherin: How goes the investigation into performance improvements?  Is that something likely, or is it something we ought drop for now, and pick up later?
[15:22] <slytherin> persia: drop as of now.
[15:22] <persia> Anyone else want it before I drop it?
[15:22] <persia> OK.  Gone.
[15:23] <persia> slytherin: How about moving stuff to Universe?  Are we caught up with Debian, or still behind?
[15:24] <slytherin> persia: We are almost with debian, I haven't checked updates in recent weeks. I still have to file few bugs yet.
[15:24] <persia> slytherin: OK.  Is that progress blocked by anything?
[15:25] <slytherin> persia: yes, I am short on time. :-)
[15:26] <persia> Anyone have some time to help slytherin?  The goal here is to identify everything that can be free, so we have a good idea what can be pulled into main.
[15:27] <slytherin> as a start, if anyone can file bugs for libgdata-java and libcodemodel-java it will be good. They are in sync with Debian.
[15:28] <persia> slytherin: Could you send a mail to the mailing list describing the steps required, and asking for help?
[15:28] <slytherin> persia: will do
[15:28] <persia> OK.
[15:29] <persia> As a reminder, we've now reached FeatureFreeze: as a result we'll not be adding any new libraries, new software, or new upstream versions to intrepid without especially good reasons.
[15:29] <persia> Also, any significant changes to behaviour will require an exception.
[15:29] <persia> Does anyone have anything that they expect to need an exception?
[15:30] <slytherin> persia: two packages, ant and fop
[15:31] <persia> slytherin: What do they need?  Especially for ant (as so much build-depends on ant)?
[15:31] <slytherin> ant has a bug fix release 1.7.1.
[15:32] <persia> Any new features, or just bug fixes?
[15:32] <slytherin> persia: AFAIK, just bug fixes
[15:32] <slytherin> ﻿fop has a new release 0.95, haven't checked changelog. But debian developer is busy so we won't see an update for long time.
[15:33] <slytherin> persia: ok, wait - Ant 1.7.1 has extended support for Java6 features. Ant 1.7.1 <script> now has support for JavaFX.
[15:33] <persia> That would require an exception.  Is it something we *need* for intrepid, or just nice to have?
[15:34] <slytherin> persia: I will check release notes and see what kind of bug fixes it has. It might be worth having FFE.
[15:35] <persia> OK.  If we need any, please try to report them as soon as possible.  Approvals can take a while, and we may have to rebuild things.
[15:35] <persia> Also, we ought generally avoid them if at all possible.
[15:35] <slytherin> persia: will do both of them by weekend
[15:37] <persia> OK.  Anyone else have any thing we need to discuss?
[15:37] <slytherin> I have one thing.
[15:38] <persia> Yes?
[15:38] <slytherin> doko is not in favor of removing 'library-gcj' packages from 'Recommends'.
[15:39] <persia> OK.  Generally he knows best about these things.  What does that cost us?
[15:39] <Koon> yes, I've expressed a different opinion in bug 249178
[15:39] <slytherin> persia: that costs users about 20 MB of download.
[15:40] <Koon> doko proposed to limit the problem by dropping the recomend of libgcj9-0-awt in libgcj9-0
[15:42] <Koon> personally I think -gcj packages hardly qualify for something you want to have in all but unusual installations, which is the definition of Recommends
[15:42] <persia> Ah.  Looking again at the Foundations Team meeting log (http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/08/27/%23ubuntu-meeting.html) there is mention of java-gcj-compat-hl
[15:42] <persia> Does that also help?
[15:42] <persia> Note also: 23:20	doko	249178 should be uploaded
[15:42] <Koon> it mitigates the issue
[15:43] <Koon> you would still get the gcj packages as soon as you install a jar library that happens to have a -gcj counterpart
[15:43] <Koon> but they wouldn't install all X libraries with them.
[15:44] <persia> OK.  That makes sense.  So it's more about parallel installation than anything else.
[15:45] <Koon> yes. If you drop the recommend, GCJ users get lousy performance unless they install the suggested -gcj package
[15:45] <persia> Personally, I think the wider solution is probably best discussed in concert with Debian.  Having two copies of every library doesn't seem right, but support for gcj remains essential for some architectures.
[15:45] <Koon> if you keep it, you install useless packages for all those who just use openjdk
[15:46] <Koon> doko's proposal is to mitigate the issue by limiting the number of useless packages that would be installed
[15:46] <slytherin> I am not really sure about this lousy performance argument.
[15:46] <persia> slytherin: Koon: Would either of you be willing to debate this with the Debian Java team?  I think we'll probably only get mitigation for intrepid given the scope of the issue (and number of packages affected), but it would be good to also have a plan for the future.
[15:47] <persia> slytherin: I thought GCJ didn't have a particularly fast JIT, which is why the native compilation was preferred.
[15:47] <robilad> it has no jit
[15:47] <slytherin> persia: For debian default-jre is gcj for lenny. So it may not make much difference for them.
[15:47] <Koon> I think doko intends to fix it in a more definitive manner for Intrepid+1 anyway
[15:47] <Koon> see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2008-August/026070.html
[15:47] <persia> slytherin: For the release as a whole, sure, but it's with those people that a fruitful discussion can be held: otherwise we need to maintain variance on all the libraries that have such recommendations.
[15:48] <slytherin> persia: I will drop a mail to debian-java list.
[15:48] <Koon> the best way to make sure we're in line with future debian is to follow doko's suggestions :)
[15:48] <slytherin> ﻿Two questions. 1. How many people prefer GCJ over Sun JRE at any point of time. 2. How may people who prefer GCj are not aware of -gcj packages.
[15:49] <persia> Koon: Well, as far as that goes, it's also the best way to make sure we're in line with future Ubuntu :)
[15:49] <persia> slytherin: Depends on the architecture.  For some architectures, I expect the answers are 1) everyone, and 2) most of them.
[15:52] <robilad> i'd have a small dpkg-query question - is there a way to query whether a given file is present anywhere in the archive, even if it is not installed?
[15:52] <slytherin> robilad: don't think so.
[15:53] <robilad> dpkg-query -S does a fine job locally but I'd need something that let's me find out whether a jar exist in maybe another package
[15:53] <persia> I don't think with dpkg-query, but apt-file (or working with Contents.gz) can do that.  Anyway, that question makes me suspect our meeting is over, and we ought take discussion back to #ubuntu-java
[15:53] <Seveas> robilad, use apt-file
[15:53] <persia> Thanks everyone.
[15:53] <robilad> thanks & back to work ;)
[15:54] <Koon> thanks persia
[15:54] <slytherin> yup, back to work.