[02:02]  * NCommander is convienced he has no life
[10:09] <NCommander> ok, this makes sense
[16:09] <tedg> mpt: Are you running Intrepid?
[16:10] <mpt> tedg, not right now, why?
[16:10] <mpt> (Intrepid ignores my trackpad at the moment)
[16:10] <tedg> mpt: I was curious if you'd had a chance to look at the fusa applet.
[16:11] <mpt> How long has it been in?
[16:11] <tedg> mpt: I just fixed my trackpad on Intrepid... PITA... I still don't have it perfect.
[16:11] <tedg> 3 days.
[16:11] <tedg> I have on quick question though, what to do when there is no IM client.
[16:11] <mpt> I have the Aug 26 daily live
[16:12] <mpt> then don't show the status items
[16:12] <tedg> Right now I default to "Offline"
[16:12] <tedg> Don't show them at all, or make them insensitive?
[16:12] <mpt> don't show them at all
[16:12] <tedg> Doesn't that equate to "disappearing" functionality?
[16:12] <tedg> Menus that appear and disappear and users not knowing why?
[16:13] <mpt> but they don't appear and disappear
[16:13] <mpt> (What did I say?:-)
[16:14] <mpt> tedg, having something insensitive usually implies that there's something you can do to make it sensitive
[16:14] <tedg> mpt: Sorry, apparently unplugging my tablet causes X to crash...
[16:14] <tedg> I probably missed your last couple messages.
[16:14] <mpt> I don't think it's reasonable to have insensitive items dependent on software that isn't even installed
[16:14] <mpt> (You didn't miss anything)
[16:15] <tedg> Well, in theory it'd be installed.  Just not running.
[16:15] <tedg> Pidgin is in the default install.
[16:15] <mpt> Oh, sorry, by "no IM client" I thought you meant "no IM client installed"
[16:15] <mpt> If installed but not running, then sure, "Offline"
[16:15] <tedg> No, no IM client running.
[16:16] <mpt> and setting any other status should launch it.
[16:16] <mpt> (And set that status once it's launched.)
[16:16] <tedg> Hmm, that may be tricky.  We don't really know which IM client the user is using.
[16:17] <mpt> Presumably the same one that you treat as Canonical if Pidgin and Empathy are both open and set to different statuses. :-)
[16:17] <tedg> There's no "Preferred Application" for IM.
[16:17] <mpt> er, "canonical" with a small c
[16:17] <tedg> I actually, in that case, report the "most available".
[16:18] <mpt> durnit
[16:18] <tedg> I'm thinking that we should hide the icon on the bar, and make the menu items insensitive.
[16:19] <tedg> That way if folks only run IRC in a terminal window, they get the panel space back.
[16:19] <tedg> And if they want the menu space, they can set the GConf setting.
[16:19] <mpt> So, default to Pidgin (since that's the one in the default install), falling back to Empathy if Pidgin's not there and Empathy is, and report a bug asking for IM client to go in Preferred Applications.
[16:21] <crevette> tedg, you're the one that did the FUSA thingy with IM integration
[16:21] <crevette> ?
[16:21] <mpt> crevette, yes, that's what we're discussing
[16:21] <tedg> Hmm, I'm thinking that the only way we could start Pidgin is to hard code the path to it's desktop file... kinda messy.
[16:21] <asac> you could also look which profile was last used (if both are installed, but not running)
[16:21] <tedg> crevette: yes.
[16:22] <tedg> asac: Profile?
[16:22] <crevette> tedg, good job, just one thing, could you use more tangoish icons, as pidgin use for status ?
[16:22] <asac> config folder
[16:22] <asac> in home directory ... (if they have)
[16:23] <tedg> crevette: Yeah, I threw in GTK+ stock icons for FF to get the features in.  I'm discussing the icons with the art team, though I'll probably steal some for the short term to make it prettier.
[16:23] <crevette> okay
[16:24] <kwwii> tedg: can you send me a list of the icons it uses? Maybe I'll find some time to make them
[16:24] <kwwii> tedg: I'm not promising anything but having the information can't hurt :-)
[16:24] <tedg> asac: They seem to have folders, but atleast with Empathy, it doesn't seem to be touching them.  I could look at their log files maybe.
[16:24] <tedg> kwwii: Okay, will do.
[16:25] <tedg> mpt: I guess my question comes down to, should "offline" and "no client" be different states?
[16:25] <asac> tedg: usually history files are regularly touched
[16:26] <mpt> tedg, logging is off in Pidgin by default, but when seb128 got back I was going to ask him if he could turn it on by default, because upstream are interested in knowing whether anyone will scream if that happens
[16:26] <mpt> (they're skittish about turning it on by default for everyone)
[16:27] <andreasn> crevette: the presence icons are already set in the naming-spec, so maybe we can just put the pidgin icons into gnome-icon-theme and refer to those names
[16:27] <tedg> Hmm, so there might not be any files they touch regularly :)
[16:27] <kwwii> asac: I have a couple of teams working on themes...to do anything really nifty they also have to include a chrome file for FF, so my question is how should I install that?
[16:27] <tedg> andreasn: Really, I couldn't find anyone who'd implemented them.. what are their names?
[16:27] <kwwii> andreasn: so they are in the spec but the icons do not exist right?
[16:27] <mpt> tedg, certainly "no client" should be a different state, because in that case you have very little idea whether someone is offline or not. They might (for example) be online in Skype and not care about anything else.
[16:27] <asac> kwwii: what kind of chrome file is that?
[16:28] <andreasn> kwwii: yes, exactlu
[16:28] <andreasn> exactly I mean :)
[16:28] <kwwii> andreasn: sounds like a good place for me to start making gnome icons :p
[16:28] <andreasn> the names are user-away, user-idle, user-offline and user-online
[16:28] <tedg> andreasn: Well someone should be yelling at Empathy of not using them now that they're a GNOME App.
[16:29] <andreasn> tedg: yeah, and someone should yell at me for not including them in gnome-icon-theme :/
[16:29]  * andreasn sneaks away....
[16:29] <tedg> ANDREASN!!!  Oh, darnit, he got away.   ;)
[16:30] <tedg> mpt: Okay, so in the "no client" state -- panel icon is "Offline" or "else" or hidden?
[16:31] <kwwii> asac: it changes the text color of the menus (since FF doesn't seem to do that right from the gtk theme) as well as the status bar text color
[16:31] <kwwii> asac: so it is something we don't want to set at installation as these will not be the default themes
[16:31] <mpt> tedg, just show the person's name I think
[16:31] <mpt> since it's just an account switcher + quit-mode-chooser at this point
[16:32] <asac> kwwii: ok. would it be appropriate to make a complete skin extension out of that?
[16:32] <asac> maybe with more contributions?
[16:32] <tedg> mpt: Okay.
[16:32] <Zdra> andreasn, tedg: I'm all for using icon naming spec for status icons... but dobey can't understand provided names are wrong
[16:33] <crevette> andreasn, hey
[16:33] <tedg> mpt: I've built GConf keys to disable all the features we've added.  So the people who don't want us to ever change anything can return it to before.  Should I throw those in the prefs dialog, or just leave them as things people can edit in gconf-editor?
[16:33] <kwwii> asac: yes, what does that involve? how does that work?
[16:33] <crevette> andreasn, presence icons is in naming-spec ?? cool, so we can has theme
[16:33] <crevette> :)
[16:33] <mpt> tedg, there's a prefs dialog??
[16:34] <Zdra> andreasn, tedg, crevette: we need icons corresponding to those statuses: http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/spec.html#type-Connection_Presence_Type
[16:34] <andreasn> crevette: sure, under standard status: http://standards.freedesktop.org/icon-naming-spec/icon-naming-spec-latest.html
[16:34] <tedg> mpt: Yeah, for whether you want your name or "Users" or a couple other things.  Pretty sparse.
[16:35] <andreasn> Zdra: ah, and pretty much all of thoee are used by regular apps like pidgin and empathy, right?
[16:35] <mpt> tedg, how is it accessed?
[16:36] <Zdra> andreasn: the problems with the icon spec are: 1) user-idle is the same as user-away. 2) user-busy does not exists. 3) user-hidden does not exists
[16:36] <tedg> mpt: Right click on the FUSA applet.  Should work on Hardy also.
[16:36] <mpt> tedg, that's not forward-compatible
[16:36] <crevette> Zdra, yeah I was looking for 3) too
[16:37] <tedg> I'd have to say, I've never understood hidden.
[16:37] <tedg> It seems like a "I trust everyone else's client not to lie" mode.
[16:38] <Zdra> tedg: when you set your presence to hidden to server tells all users you are offline
[16:38] <tedg> mpt: What do you mean, we can keep those keys to disable the features forever -- even if makes less and less sense.
[16:38] <asac> kwwii: basically its getting the chrome files in a .xpi ... and then let it package by our extension team
[16:38] <mpt> tedg, I mean, right-clicking on a panel applet isn't :-)
[16:38] <andreasn> Zdra: I would personally don't get the distinction between user-idle and user-away, but I certainly agree that the naming-spec and telepathy should use the same stuff, because them being incompatible is like, weird
[16:38] <mpt> tedg, but sure, put them in there if you like, I don't really care about that
[16:38] <tedg> Zdra: I don't that ICQ implemented it that way, perhaps Jabber is better :)  (/me is old school :) )
[16:39] <kwwii> asac: so doing it that way would allow one to choose it (or we could set it on install of theme itself)
[16:39] <kwwii> ?
[16:39] <andreasn> Zdra: anyway, I better run now, I'll bring it up with some other artists and see if I _might_ be able to get dobey to change his mind (but don't count on it :/ )
[16:39] <tedg> mpt: Okay, I was just curious if you had thoughts.  My initial thought was yes, but then I was thinking that we might not want to make it easy for people to avoid our new features :)
[16:40] <mpt> The better designed something is, the fewer options it needs
[16:41] <asac> kwwii: i think switching the default globally would be trickier. in any case, the user would be able to choose/switch back
[16:41] <Zdra> andreasn: right, telepathy is fd.o like the icon naming spec. So I think they both should provide the same set of status types. If you can change the spec I'll use those names for empathy icons for sure ;)
[16:41] <asac> kwwii: however, on first restart the addons manager pops up and highlights the new theme
[16:41] <mpt> tedg, it would be much easier to not show them now and introduce them later, than to introduce them now and remove them later
[16:41] <tedg> mpt: We just need one flag in the user's account "I hate change" and they can flip that, all in one place :)
[16:41] <asac> kwwii: so its not like the user doesnt have a chance to know how to select it
[16:43] <mpt> tedg, it concerns me (and this is a general problem) that early adopters may end up with a nasty-looking clumsy-to-use OS because we never brought them up to date with the new hotness.
[16:43] <kwwii> asac: excellent, that sounds like what we want to do
[16:43] <kwwii> asac: I'll probably be in touch about this soon
[16:44] <asac> kwwii: welcome.
[16:44] <tedg> mpt, yeah, we kinda need a "Revert to distro defaults" button that would reset things like the panel and such.  So that people could run that every few updates.
[16:44] <tedg> mpt: That way they won't loose their app settings, but could get different things on the panel for instance.
[16:44] <mpt> tedg, right, soon we'll need to start designing not just features, but also sensitive upgrades to those new features.
[16:46] <vuntz> tedg: I'd never use a "revert to distro defaults" for the panel -- I'd lose my panel changes...
[16:46] <Zdra> andreasn: I think it's important to note the way telepathy works: we have a string describing each possible status, depending on the protocol you could have "gone-eating", "phone-call", etc... For each presence string that can be anything, the backend gives the presence's category. So "gone-eating" and "phone-call" are both in the "busy" category. Categories are protocol-independent so we need one icon for each. Of course more icons can be ad
[16:46] <Zdra> ded later for special presence of particular protocols but it's not required since we can use the generic icon of the presence type.
[16:46] <tedg> Perhaps that's a place of an external utility.  We could have a GConf key for "Ubuntu UI Version" and then when that gets incremented it could pop up and say "The Ubuntu UI has been upgraded, would you like to update your settings?"
[16:46] <tedg> vuntz: Yes, but I'll put you the class of "Experienced Panel User" ;)
[16:47] <vuntz> tedg: okay, so your issue is mainly that the way the panel config is described is inherently broken when it comes to default settings
[16:47] <vuntz> I would fix this first :-)
[16:47] <vuntz> (not saying I will do it soon)
[16:48] <tedg> vuntz: Yes, that's one problem, but the other is that people might have removed something like the fast-user switch applet because they didn't want fast user switching.  Now we've added IM support and they may want it back.  How do they know?
[16:49] <vuntz> by reading the "what's new" page about the new release?
[16:49] <vuntz> they don't want it back if they don't know about it ;-)
[16:49] <tedg> I was also talking about this with kwwii about new themes.  Let's say we add a new theme to the ubuntu-themes package, how do they know they have a new theme to choose?
[16:50] <tedg> vuntz: I'm from America, no one reads here ;)
[16:50] <tedg> vuntz: We have Fox News to read things for us.
[16:50] <vuntz> interesting to think about all this, though
[16:52] <tedg> What I had talked about with kwwii was perhaps we have the package touch a file somewhere in var, and then a little listener can know the date of the file last time, it looked and notice an updated touch of that file.  It'd be simple, but probably work.
[16:52] <tedg> For the theme case, I'm not sure it'd work for the large "UI Change" issue.
[17:31] <kwwii> asac: can you point me to the original theme files (I assume in the firefox package, which I luckily have on my machine)
[17:34] <asac> kwwii: most is native, but there are themes files in xulrunner-1.9*/chrome/classic.jar and same for firefox-3.0*/chrome/classic.jar
[17:35] <kwwii> asac: excellent, I'll check it out, thanks
[17:41] <tedg> kwwii: Oh, BTW, this bzr branch "lp:~ted-gould/inkscape/devbuild" should install a separate binary and desktop file and use your icon.  I haven't had a chance to package it or anything like that.  But it does work.
[17:41] <tedg> kwwii: Thanks for the icon!
[20:32] <RainCT> Hi
[20:33] <RainCT> Can someone have a look at bug #262723?