[00:00] <Boogy`> I see
[00:00] <Boogy`> and to do that, I need to learn C or the gtk+?
[00:01] <kwwii> "If If's and But's were candy and nuts, oh what a party we'd have!"
[00:01] <Cimi> if you want to contribute in a useful way.. yes :)
[00:01] <kwwii> I love that saying
[00:01] <kwwii> Boogy`: you can learn whatever you want, it depends on what you can/want to do
[00:01] <Boogy`> how about I use my photshoping abilities instead and just pass the suggestion to you guys?
[00:01] <Boogy`> is that close enough?
[00:02] <kwwii> Boogy`: more than half of making a theme is knowing what is possible
[00:02] <__mikem> kwwii, even if you think desktops that are lifeless, have boxy edges and are completely static are the best thing since OS/2, you have tothink about whats good for linux as a platform, and that is selling it to a bunch of people who like rounded edges, semitransparent window decorations, and lots of eye candy.
[00:02] <kwwii> if you are just working on a wallpaper then photoshop skills would be enough, mainly
[00:02] <Boogy`> well gee guys... and here I was all excited to help out...
[00:03] <kwwii> __mikem: actually, I agree with you more than you think but I also see the technical issues invovled and without somehow getting around them there is little that pretty pictures will do
[00:03] <kwwii> they can inspire developers though
[00:04] <__mikem> kwwii, I really like linux an I want it to succeed, and it is frustrating to no end when people who run these projects fail to realize that ubuntu and all other distributions are in desparate need ofafacelift, even if you understand this, too many others don't.
[00:04] <__mikem> apparently I am in desparate need of a new space bar
[00:04] <kwwii> __mikem: what I really understand well is that the infrastructure needs to change in order to keep pace with others technologies
[00:04] <Cimi> kwwii: I have updated scrollbars in murrine
[00:04] <kwwii> and the only way to do that is to hire more devs
[00:04] <Cimi> oops
[00:05] <Cimi> noetbooks
[00:05] <Cimi> *tabs
[00:05] <__mikem> kwwii, the problem is, in on the software development side, nobody wants to change the infrastructure. They think that you guys can do the job with what you got.
[00:05] <kwwii> a small team of artists with a larger team of devs could radically change things although some stuff is simply trickery by Microsoft and Apple because they control/own hardware
[00:06] <__mikem> I don't know who is right but the level of coporation between the artists and the programmers in this project is impeeding progress
[00:06] <__mikem> s/level of cooporation/lack of cooporation
[00:07] <Cimi> http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/3189/schermataqt8.png
[00:07] <Cimi> kwwii: new tabs
[00:08] <__mikem> Cimi, THATS the kind of look that we need
[00:08] <Cimi> as said, we need 1 dev to patch Gtk+ :)
[00:08] <kwwii> Cimi: nice :-) although I never was a fan of the hard glow
[00:09] <Cimi> kwwii: can be customized
[00:09] <Cimi> gradients...
[00:09] <kwwii> right :-)
[00:09] <zniavre> rounded menu ...  :o)
[00:09] <Cimi> zniavre: it works with murrine
[00:09] <zniavre> yes i know
[00:09] <kwwii> Cimi: do you think I should update the svn snapshot of the murrine engine for intrepid?
[00:10] <Cimi> if you like new tabs
[00:10] <kwwii> I will include a snapshot, I see no reason not to as it works very well
[00:10] <__mikem> Cimi, well someone is going to need to talk to the devs because they refuse to believe that the current GTK+ is anything short of perfect
[00:10] <kwwii> Cimi: cool, I'll bug people and have a good reason to do so
[00:10] <Cimi> gtk+ is ok
[00:10] <Cimi> what's wrong with it?
[00:10] <__mikem> Cimi, you just said it needs patching
[00:10] <Cimi> because of freedesktop
[00:11] <Cimi> gtk+ is following freedesktop specifications
[00:11] <Cimi> and the current freedesktop specification have a mistake: you cant use transparency with the system tray icons, otherwise it will crash
[00:12] <__mikem> what is the "free desktop specifications"?
[00:12] <kwwii> gtk+ still needs lots of work
[00:12] <kwwii> trust me, I came from a purely Qt world and had to relearn all the limitations
[00:12] <Cimi> freedesktop.org is an organization that writes the standards between the difefrent applications and window managers
[00:12] <__mikem> kwwii, I use wxWidgets
[00:13] <Cimi> for example
[00:13] <Cimi> for every thing you see there's a specification behind
[00:13] <Cimi> when you move your files to the Trash
[00:14] <Cimi> those are moevd into /home/your-user/.local/Trash
[00:14] <Cimi> there's a specification that explains that and make it standard
[00:15] <Cimi> so every file manager will implement it and dolphin in kde4 will see the same trash of nautilus in gnome
[00:15] <__mikem> Thats good
[00:15] <Cimi> actually, freedesktop specifications have a mistake for the system trays
[00:16] <Cimi> because when they were written transparency didn't existed
[00:16] <Cimi> *st
[00:16] <kwwii> Cimi: right, which means it needs to be changed
[00:16] <Cimi> and they haven't planned this kind of future
[00:16] <kwwii> I stopped posting on the xdg list after the whole tango by default issue :p
[00:16] <__mikem> all I know is, linux is behind in GUI design, and needs to catch up
[00:16] <Cimi> kwwii: of course, otherwise we will have opaque windows for the next 10 years
[00:18] <Cimi> __mikem: it is not a problem for me, I like it the whay it is :)
[00:18] <Cimi> my desktop doesn't look to baad :)
[00:18] <__mikem> Cimi, it doesn't matter what you like, it matters how millions of perspective users out there like it. Thats the thing that people here don't seem to get and its frustrating
[00:19] <Cimi> fuck off the people
[00:19] <Cimi> they are not paying for linux/ubuntu
[00:19] <Cimi> and they should not have any warranties
[00:20] <Cimi> want more? pay for it!
[00:20] <kwwii> a lot of people are willing to pay for it, and even pay us if possible...there is a way to change the status quo
[00:21] <kwwii> but it is not easy and most people don't want to even get into it as it means more work on their part
[00:22] <_MMA_> Cimi: That attitude will continue to hinder progress. Coders are very often *not* designers. We all have to work together to move forward.
[00:23] <_MMA_> So the code it or pay for it attitude is not really helpful.
[00:23] <kwwii> it seems that designers and developers do not work well together in the real world without being paid to do so :p
[00:24] <Cimi> I can do both of things :P
[00:24] <_MMA_> kwwii: Don't gimmie that "real world" crap. That only furthers separation.
[00:25] <_MMA_> People that say I will *only* do something if I get paid shouldn't work on free-software. IMO
[00:26] <kwwii> _MMA_: sorry but my experience has shown that it is really hard to work together
[00:26] <_MMA_> kwwii: That's ego.
[00:26] <_MMA_> Nothing more.
[00:26] <__mikem> kwwii, and yet the people at yApple do it every da
[00:26] <kwwii> people who can do bleeding edge coding on graphics related stuff have their own ideas, it is only natural
[00:26] <kwwii> they are good at what they do for a reason
[00:26] <_MMA_> "I won't listen to you because I'm not paid to." Bullshit.
[00:27] <kwwii> oh, they will listen to you but the results may not be what you expect
[00:28] <__mikem> The problem is, linux would be so much better off if these people would put asside their differences and build a more modern UI experience, and they refuse to do it.
[00:28] <_MMA_> And there's a difference there. Being paid for something specific is on thing.
[00:28] <kwwii> it is just really hard to work on something unless you both have the same vision
[00:29] <_MMA_> Most often what we see is "I have my own idea and I don't care what you think". *Even* when it comes from someone credible.
[00:29] <_MMA_> __mikem: And don't say "linux" that's too general.
[00:29] <kwwii> and in that case there are very few credible artists :-)
[00:30] <kwwii> as many people expect and artist to create something by chanting the famous words "I have a program and now I need some icons"
[00:30] <kwwii>  :p
[00:30] <_MMA_> kwwii: Well credibility comes from experience. I have a hard time believing that Cimi would listen to someone from Apple.
[00:30] <kwwii> I always wanted to come up to a dev and say "I have some icons and now I need an app"
[00:31] <Cimi> _MMA_: WHY ME TO APPLE???
[00:31] <_MMA_> ﻿Cimi: I don't understand what you said.
[00:31] <Cimi> me too :)
[00:32] <Cimi> I didn't understand why my name was near apple
[00:32] <_MMA_> Cimi: If someone from Apple, a great UI designer, came to you and said "You should change this in Murrine" would you listen?
[00:33] <Cimi> oh no. apple designers sucks compared to me and my ego :P
[00:33] <kwwii> what if they said that they were going to use it by default in OSX?
[00:33] <Cimi> murrine?
[00:33] <_MMA_> Point made.
[00:33] <kwwii> yeah
[00:33] <kwwii> lol
[00:33] <Cimi> I can close the source ;)
[00:33] <_MMA_> ;)
[00:33] <kwwii> Cimi: for a lot of money?
[00:33] <Cimi> and became billionar
[00:34] <kwwii> and I mean a lot
[00:34] <kwwii> exactly
[00:34] <Cimi> then give kenneth 10 new devs
[00:34] <kwwii> then you could do what you wanted
[00:34] <Cimi> and do a murrine++
[00:34] <Cimi> :))
[00:35] <Cimi> 1 more lasftm song then bed!
[00:35] <kwwii> good idea...time for sleep
[00:37] <Cimi> kwwii: I haven't received a reply from mark, so maybe he changed his idea
[00:38] <kwwii> Cimi: I have no idea what he is thinking anymore so I am no longer responsible
[00:38] <Cimi> what do you mean?
[00:38] <kwwii> well, naturally I am still responsible
[00:39] <kwwii> but I have given up on thinking that I know what he thinks
[00:39] <Cimi> ooh ok ;)
[00:39] <kwwii> I realize that we are two totally different people with different understandings of things and I hope that I can make him happy somehow
[00:40] <Cimi> from my point of view mark has 0 (i mean zero) experience with the design
[00:40] <Cimi> not only experience, taste too...
[00:40] <kwwii> on wednesday he asked me if I am invovled with the community efforts at all at which point I realized that he has no idea of what I am doing
[00:40] <Cimi> ahahahaha
[00:40] <kwwii> anyway, too late for me here...shouldn't be talking like this
[00:41] <Cimi> oh don't worry, i will keep this conversation secret
[00:41] <kwwii> lol, me too
[00:41] <Cimi> (also because of my " from my point of view mark has 0 (i mean zero) experience with the design")
[00:42] <_MMA_> hahhaha. Channel is logged and public. :)
[00:43] <Cimi> damn!!! :D
[00:43] <Cimi> someone to delete the log please
[00:43] <kwwii> oh well, such is life
[00:43] <psyke83> someone needs to hack into the irclogs.ubuntu.com server :P
[00:43] <kwwii> time for sleep now
[00:43] <kwwii> see you all soon
[00:43] <_MMA_> night
[00:43] <psyke83> nite
[00:44] <Cimi> kwwii: you will be fired!
[00:44] <Cimi> strike!
[00:45] <kwwii> hehe, if anyone has any idea about creating a FF skin let me know
[00:46] <Cimi> kwwii: creating skins is damn not perfect
[00:46] <Cimi> anyway I know 2 guys maybe
[00:46] <_MMA_> I have some links.
[00:46] <kwwii> Cimi: well, we only want to change a few smaller points
[00:46] <psyke83> it would be better for Cimi to improve Murrine's tabs instead ;)
[00:46] <kwwii> I have some online info as well, but I really just want to change two things in the normal setup
[00:46] <Cimi> psyke83: i love the new ones
[00:46] <psyke83> Cimi: I didn't check yet, I'll have to take a look
[00:46] <Cimi> http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/3189/schermataqt8.png
[00:47] <Cimi> shot
[00:47] <_MMA_> kwwii: As long as it doesnt go *in* the Firefox package and things areen't set by default that F' Xubuntu and I.
[00:48] <_MMA_> bbl
[00:48] <kwwii> _MMA_: nope, it is an extra theme package which one would have to install
[00:48] <psyke83> Cimi, better, but still not great. The only difference I see is that there's a gradient on the "selected" tab
[00:49] <Cimi> psyke83: I would really like to see your ideas
[00:49] <kwwii> basically I am thinking about putting all the metacity and gtk stuff from all the community themes in one package and then make one package per theme with the extra stuff which one can install to complete the feel
[00:49] <Cimi> actually the best tabs I've seen are for Clearlooks
[00:49] <Cimi> (yeah I did them :) )
[00:49] <_MMA_> hahahah. "Great" We're so opinionated. :P Ubuntu Studio Hardy will have the best look anyway. Ubuntu should just give up.
[00:50] <zerwas> _MMA_: don't give up the hope.
[00:50] <psyke83> Cimi, funnily enough since we're talking about Firefox, I think the tabs in the Windows version looked OK. The main difference is a slight separation between tabs, though I don't know if GTK would allow it?
[00:50] <Cimi> psyke83: yeah
[00:50] <psyke83> http://cavemonkey50.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/ff2_win_final_large.jpg
[00:50] <psyke83> like those
[00:50] <_MMA_> Ok. Really, bbl. (off to the library)
[00:51] <Cimi> GtkNotebook::tab-overlap
[00:52] <Cimi> psyke83: for example these tabs: http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/8282/kithtabsks2.png
[00:53] <psyke83> Cimi, does that require the very latest SVN code? I set it to 4 and see no difference with the intrepid snapshot
[00:54] <Cimi> psyke83: the tabs of the last screenshot are a local test
[00:54] <Cimi> the tabs of the previous are from the svn
[00:54] <Cimi> if you want to separate them, for EVERY theme
[00:54] <Cimi> just place GtkNotebook::tab-overlap = -2
[00:54] <Cimi> (this works for clearlooks too...)
[00:54] <psyke83> ah, I see
[00:55] <psyke83> I quite like it at -1 :)
[00:56] <psyke83> if the tabs curved at the bottom edges it would be nicer
[00:56] <Cimi> no
[00:56] <Cimi> it requires things that will break usability
[00:56] <zerwas> did you guys thought about to call out a bounty for rgba colormaps support? ...
[00:57] <zerwas> ... if there is no developer willing to do this.
[00:58] <psyke83> it seems firefox doesn't honour GtkNotebook::tab-overlap :(
[00:59] <zerwas> at least epiphany/midori does ...
[01:00] <Cimi> psyke83: in fact as I said
[01:01] <Cimi> overlap will reduce usability
[01:01] <Cimi> because you're losing a lot of space
[01:01] <Cimi> same thing for the curved tab
[01:01] <Cimi> (it will require tab-overlap)
[01:02] <psyke83> sure, but if you look at GTK compared to most other interfaces, there is a LOT of whitespace that's really a waste. It's partially to do with freetype font rendering and distributions using 10pt fonts, but a lot of the blame is on GTK+ too. You can't simply set x/ythickness=0 without widgets looking very strange
[01:03] <psyke83> a little space wasted on tabs is a small sacrifice compared to the other spacing problems (though I agree there's no need to make it worse :P)
[01:04] <psyke83> I suppose it's less of a problem now that 1024x768 is considered "low resolution"
[05:40] <bender1337> hi, i am working on a cartoon theme in ubuntu i have gartoon icons and a cartoon back ground does anyone know what else i could get to improve my theme
[05:46] <bender1337> is there a cartoony gtk theme
[11:13] <Cimi> kwwii: ping
[11:13] <Cimi> kwwii: if you have mockups, please read this http://www.cimitan.com/blog/2008/08/23/mockups-for-murrine/
[20:39] <thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/IntrepidCountdownBanners
[20:45] <andreasn> thorwil: ooh, I like the one with the dots, would it count down on the circles?
[20:45] <thorwil> andreasn: ty, yes
[20:46] <andreasn> cool
[20:47] <thorwil> inner dot is zero. rest are 15. if that isn't enough, space gets tight ...
[20:50] <savvas> hm.. countdown with sign language
[20:50] <savvas> that could be unique
[20:51] <thorwil> heh, this kinda mirrors the reaction in #ubuntu-artwork.
[20:51] <thorwil> one for the dots, one for the hands
[20:54] <thorwil> good night! :)