[08:44] <kwwii> moin
[08:44] <zniavre> bonjour
[11:48] <thorwil> kwwii: hi! seen the mail from gerry? will you attend the community council tomorrow?
[12:48] <thorwil> welcome _MMA_
[12:48] <_MMA_> Hi sir.
[12:49] <_MMA_> Great mash up there. Only thing I would ask you look at is to try to capture that "bottom glow" that the Human folders have.
[12:50] <_MMA_> That is one big thing Mark likes about Human.
[12:50] <_MMA_> Though, I'm gonna be pushing this regardless of Canonical, I want to try to hit as many cues as we can.
[12:51] <thorwil> hmm. that bottom glow doesn't make much sense in what i did
[12:52] <_MMA_> kwwii: You pokin' around?
[12:55] <thorwil> _MMA_: i'd like to see folder icons turned into something that doesn't just say: this is a folder, but that gives at least some hints at the content
[13:19] <kwwii> _MMA_: hey, just got back from my midday swim
[13:20] <kwwii> thorwil: hi, got a mail from you from gerry :-)
[13:20] <thorwil> right
[13:20] <_MMA_> kwwii: You got an eye on my recent post to the ML? Along with thorwil's response?
[13:20] <thorwil> kwwii: i really thought he could be the right one for at least strategic goals ...
[13:21] <kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, I was just looking at that
[13:21] <kwwii> _MMA_: the one thing that mark really likes about the oxygen folder is the gradient from the bottom of the folder to about the middle
[13:21] <kwwii> thorwil: well, he does more of the marketing stuff...at this time things are a bit confusing about artwork
[13:22] <kwwii> we are in the process of hiring people and I am not sure if they know what those new people will be doing exactly
[13:22] <_MMA_> Yes. I've told thorwil. I'm gonna post that to the list soon. I wanted to see what people did 1st.
[13:23] <thorwil> kwwii: i would hope you are still in the process, cause i got no cancellation. on the other hand, it's scary how this gets dragged out, apparently
[13:24] <kwwii> thorwil: yeah, especially if they don't know exactly what the new jobs should really be doing
[13:24] <thorwil> heh
[13:25] <thorwil> i'm highly qualified for not knowing what i should be doing plus also having others not knowing what i should be doing :>
[13:25] <_MMA_> :P
[13:26] <kwwii> lol
[13:32] <kwwii> so, if anybody is willing to try it out I put Kin, Dust and NewWave in my PPA
[13:34] <_MMA_> I will in a bit.
[13:34] <kwwii> cool, if you have any problems let me know
[13:34] <kwwii> all three are in one package "community-themes"
[13:35] <_MMA_> Cool.
[13:45] <kwwii> erm, I just found an error, wait for the 0.2 package to appear to test it
[13:46] <_MMA_> ﻿kwwii: ok. I won't be doing it for a bit anyway. We're makin' breakfast atm. We're also gonna get out today since Renee is off for Labor Day.
[13:47]  * _MMA_ is also watchin' the news for info about this hurricane hitting New Orleans.
[13:53] <kwwii> hehe, that is what they get for living in a flood plain
[13:54] <kwwii> ohhh, labor day! wish I could take today off as well
[13:54] <Cimi> kwwii: ugly themes
[13:57] <_MMA_> kwwii: Seriously. If I were them I would just move.
[13:58] <_MMA_> kwwii: I think after this it will be a *long* time 'till it's populated like it was. It's gonna turn into a wasteland. Nobody will wanna live there.
[13:59] <thorwil> that's bit of a broad judgment, lacking context and even a hint of what the consequences should be
[13:59] <_MMA_> thorwil: Do you know where Im talking about?
[14:00] <_MMA_> And Ill take it to PM since Im really just talking to Ken about off-topic stuff.
[14:00] <thorwil> _MMA_: yes. i refered to Cimi's comment
[14:00] <_MMA_> thorwil: Oh. You didn't use a name. :)
[14:01] <Cimi> thorwil: did you see the themes?
[14:02] <thorwil> Cimi: yes, allthough not necessarily as packaged
[14:03] <Cimi> thorwil: did you see the tons of bugs?
[14:03] <_MMA_> Cimi: "Ugly" depends on audience and the individual. You can have a you're opinion but saying it simply "ugly" the way you often do just makes you look bad.
[14:03] <Cimi> it is not important :)
[14:04] <_MMA_> What? Your opinion?
[14:04] <Cimi> people can see me bad
[14:04] <_MMA_> I agree.
[14:04] <Cimi> I'm not frightened
[14:04] <thorwil> Cimi: no. if you meant to say they are buggy, *technically* ugly, than this is an entirely different amtter
[14:04] <Cimi> thorwil: bugged themes are ugly in my point of view
[14:04] <_MMA_> Exactly. "Ugly" is aesthetic. "Buggy" is technical.
[14:05]  * thorwil -> coffee
[14:05] <_MMA_> Cimi: I highly doubt you wouldn't think they were ugly if the bugs were fixed.
[14:06] <Cimi> oh yeas of course, I don't like the mix of pixmap and cairo engines, I don't like the mix of dark and bright colors, I don't like their HUE
[14:08] <Cimi> I don't like the metacity with fixed colors
[14:08] <Cimi> with firefox dust it totally bugged
[14:09] <_MMA_> Cimi: So that is more helpful. Simply saying its "ugly" makes people respect your opinion less.
[14:09] <_MMA_> Say *why* you dont like it. ;)
[14:09] <Cimi> I don't care about people's opinions :)
[14:11] <Cimi> the menubar on newwave has a too thick and strong shadow on its bottomù
[14:12] <_MMA_> Great. Then we'll continue to think you're an ass. Offering nothing helpful but baseless negative opinion.
[14:12] <_MMA_> If you dont want to be part of a team and get along, fine.
[14:13] <Cimi> the notebook on newwave is ...
[14:13] <_MMA_> I personally won't let you act how you want without letting you know it's wrong.
[14:14] <_MMA_> Cimi: It's not for you. Thats fine. We get it.
[14:14] <_MMA_> You don't have to use it. Others like it. It goes in a theme pack.
[14:14] <Cimi> _MMA_: I understood what you asked me: being more polite and give explanations before writing down my opinions
[14:16] <kwwii> actually, there are other parts which I did not include yet like a FF skin and such
[14:16] <kwwii> the point of this effort is to encourage people to make themes for ubuntu
[14:16] <kwwii> not to show off our perfect new themes
[14:16] <Cimi> kwwii: but discurage using ff skins
[14:16] <Cimi> just ask people better themes
[14:16] <kwwii> Cimi: yeah, I can understand that point pretty well but FF sucks wrt themeing
[14:17] <kwwii> so it is often necessary
[14:17] <kwwii> FF and OO are the worst apps at themeing
[14:17] <Cimi> I have said in the mailing list that dust has broken toolbars, did they fix it?
[14:17] <Cimi> no, they didn't
[14:17] <kwwii> Cimi: yes, it appears that they did fix it
[14:17] <kwwii> lol
[14:17] <Cimi> here is broken
[14:17] <kwwii> I thought they did at least :p
[14:17] <Cimi> they are still using a pixmap
[14:18] <kwwii> yeah, without a coder to work on theme there is little other choice than using pixmaps
[14:18] <Cimi> I really really don't like the newwave notebook
[14:18] <Cimi> kwwii: murrine supports gradient on toolbars
[14:19] <kwwii> Cimi: well, if these are really going to make it into intrepid I want to fix any of these problems
[14:20] <kwwii> I am going to try and get people who are interested in these themes into a group so that they people can offer their help
[14:20] <Cimi> maybe the best approach is to decide 2, three themes and start working on theme with the whole community
[14:21] <Cimi> on them
[14:22] <kwwii> that was kinda my idea, I thought that putting them in a PPA would help motivate people
[14:22] <Cimi> _MMA_: also remember that the mailing list is not the whole community. if 20 guys liked those themes doesn't mean *others like it*
[14:22] <kwwii> (and mark told me to do it for him)
[14:23] <kwwii> oh, beleive me, I know that
[14:23] <kwwii> the forum is even worse sometimes
[14:23] <Cimi> I would really being more critic on the whole community
[14:24] <Cimi> I didn't want to be rude before, and sorry _MMA_, but when I see some themes (and how they have glitches in almost every program) I become sick, and maybe nasty
[14:25] <Cimi> are these really the themes we would like to show to the world?
[14:25] <Cimi> let's compare new wave with vista or osx
[14:26] <Cimi> ... few seconds for let you thinking ...
[14:26] <_MMA_> Cimi: They are not default and the community wants them. So its great that we have a way for people to get them.
[14:26] <kwwii> I don't think that we will get a theme of that quality unless we pay a developer to work on it (and even then it is hard because there is only so much you can change)
[14:27] <_MMA_> kwwii: I don't agree at all.
[14:27] <Cimi> in my point of view providing such themes into ubuntu is a bad marketing decision, people will say: oh see which themes is providing ubuntu
[14:27] <Cimi> _MMA_: me too
[14:28] <_MMA_> Cimi: Well maybe Ubuntu doesn't care about opinions just like you dont. :)
[14:28] <Cimi> _MMA_: yeah we already know
[14:29] <Cimi> like the neverending trolling about the brown palette :)
[14:29] <_MMA_> And I don't even know if these themes will be shipped. kwwii?
[14:29] <_MMA_> (might just be a add-on)
[14:29] <Cimi> I don't want to speak about my two engines (clearlooks and murrine) but there are a lot of great artists that with simple gtkrcs are able to do (imho) better themes
[14:33] <Cimi> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/download.php?content=80899&id=1&tan=53100537  http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/86717-1.jpg http://www.cimitan.com/murrine/files/screenshot.jpg
[14:35] <kwwii> if you ask me, most of the available themes look very similar
[14:35] <_MMA_> IMO light themes are easy and dont really grab me anymore.
[14:36] <Cimi> we don't have a *great* light theme into ubuntu
[14:36] <thorwil> kwwii: maybe because they're done with simple gtkrcs and no pixmaps? ;)
[14:36]  * thorwil runs
[14:37] <kwwii> lol
[14:37] <Cimi> thorwil: no because they don't know how to tweak murrine :)
[14:37] <_MMA_> I wish I could make dark themes better but its the app writers are screwing things. Making special widgets that don't conform to standards or hard-coding color values. Im gonna start theming KDE. ;)
[14:38] <Cimi> oh, Qt developers are trying to use gtk to draw their themes
[14:38] <_MMA_> And pixmaps are great. There's no reason not to use it.
[14:38] <Cimi> because theming in Qt is such a pain
[14:38] <Cimi> and you are asking more of that pain :)
[14:39] <Cimi> _MMA_: static colors, bad quality/precision, speed, limits
[14:40] <kwwii> at least with KDE you can do something a bit different whereas with gtk I feel bound to all these rules (maybe I just haven't dug deeply enough though)
[14:41] <Cimi> kwwii: if you come into #murrine, there's a developer from trolltech who felt sick of kde and their artwork, and started working on the gtkstyle qt engine so he can finally use gnome themes, since he likes them more than kde's
[14:42] <Cimi> and he already said that theming in qt is actually a pain
[14:42] <_MMA_> "static colors" So? :) Its about audiance and what you're trying to say.
[14:42] <_MMA_> "﻿bad quality/precision" This comes down to the person who makes the theme. They just have to take care.
[14:42] <_MMA_> "﻿speed" Irrelevant anymore. This isnt 1995. We cant keep holding ourselves back.
[14:42] <_MMA_> "﻿limits" Everything has it's limits.
[14:43] <Cimi> pixmaps requires rescaling, and that means poor quality
[14:43] <Cimi> just have a look ad a pixmap rescaling and a vectorial image
[14:43] <_MMA_> Depends on where it's used.
[14:43] <_MMA_> ANd how the images are made.
[14:43] <Cimi> do you know how a pixmap theme works?
[14:44] <_MMA_> For the most part.
[14:44] <Cimi> you select the part of the image which won't be scaled, and the center of the image will be streched
[14:45] <kwwii> Cimi: hehe, cool
[14:45] <Cimi> speed is still relevant, you can't say it isn't :)
[14:45] <Cimi> with a engine (except aurora and ubuntulooks) you have twice the speed
[14:46] <_MMA_> With modern PCs, made in the last 5 years, yeah, I would say it doesn't matter.
[14:46] <Cimi> limits are for example: you can't have transparencies, you can't have rounded menues, tooltips..
[14:47] <Cimi> _MMA_: it really depends on the video card, some video cards still performs really slow
[14:47] <Cimi> and not because of the age of the computer, but because of the drivers
[14:47] <Cimi> *but because*, my english sucks too...
[14:49] <Cimi> _MMA_: kwwii: Ken Vermette is the most talented guy on our mailing list
[14:50] <Cimi> even if his kin dust could be so much better with a custom gtkrc
[14:51] <Cimi> kwwii: please tell him how to play with gradients
[14:54] <kwwii> yeah, I think that we will have to work on a few things :-)
[14:54] <Cimi> _MMA_: are you there?
[14:55] <_MMA_> Kinda. Im handling some major issues for Studio as well as planning the day with the family.
[14:56] <Cimi> _MMA_: OT: is there a shot/preview of the studio intrepid artwork? I heard of good opinions about it but I haven't find a sscreenshot yet
[14:56] <Cimi> anyway good afternoon/morning/day with your family ;)
[14:58] <_MMA_> Ill get you a package but I doubt you'll like it. :) I do think you would be a help with some "technical" issues. I don't want any aesthetic changes. :)
[14:58] <_MMA_> But Ill be back in a bit.
[15:00] <Cimi> _MMA_: why you are saying that I won't like it
[15:00] <_MMA_> Because you've said you don't like dark themes.
[15:00] <Cimi> neversaid such thing
[15:01] <Cimi> I have said I don't like the mania to propose light themes with a dark menubar
[15:01] <Cimi> in my point of view a theme should be dark or light, not a mix that tries to remember osx, but it fails
[15:02] <Cimi> (osx has dark toolbars and light window background)
[15:03] <_MMA_> Cimi: A year and a half ago, when we (Studio) were the 1st to ship Murrine, you were working with me and you said it. :) I remember.
[15:04] <_MMA_> But Ill bbl.
[15:04] <Cimi> bye, then :)
[15:04] <Cimi> poke me when you'll come back
[15:07] <Cimi> I was so bad with newwave and dust because they really look as a regression to my eyes over the few themes we already have. 5 years ago people did better themes using pixmaps, now it seems like the community is full of teenagers that should be more humble and start studying gtk+ theming before approaching. the quality gone away. I have nothing against teenagers (I was a teenager few years ago), but before asking to i
[16:36] <CIA-42> acimitan * r53 murrine/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
[16:36] <CIA-42> 2008-09-01 Andrea Cimitan <andrea.cimitan@gmail.com>
[16:36] <CIA-42>  * src/murrine_rc_style.c (murrine_rc_style_register_types),
[16:36] <CIA-42>  (murrine_rc_style_finalize), (murrine_rc_style_class_init),
[16:36] <CIA-42>  (murrine_rc_style_class_finalize), (murrine_rc_style_merge):
[16:36] <CIA-42>  * src/murrine_rc_style.h:
[16:36] <CIA-42>  * src/murrine_style.c (murrine_set_widget_parameters),
[17:45] <thorwil> kwwii: you might want to also post a link / short explanation of ppa
[17:47] <CimiDS> kwwii, did you find any changes to be done in murrine?
[17:50] <kwwii> CimiDS: to be honest, I am so busy that I haven't had a chance
[17:51] <kwwii> thorwil: yeah, good point
[17:51] <CimiDS> kwwii, I mean during these last months
[17:52] <kwwii> CimiDS: well, I would like something that allows me to really define every little part but to be honest I probably don't know all the options that it can already handle
[17:52] <kwwii> CimiDS: my fist suggestion would be to document what it can already do :-)
[17:53] <CimiDS> kwwii, latest versions are providing a schema file under /usr/share/gtk-engines/murrine.xml
[17:54] <CimiDS> maybe they should require more lines
[17:55] <CimiDS> the problem i usually seen is that guys don't know that the can define one engine section for each wudget allowing to mixing a lot of styles
[17:55] <CimiDS> take a look at newwave or dust
[17:56] <CimiDS> menubars and toolbars can be done with murrine using a custom gradient under the menubar and toolbar sections
[17:56] <CimiDS> of the gtkrc
[17:57] <CimiDS> but they are still usingpixmaps, and firefox will look ugly :)
[17:58] <CimiDS> with a white border around the addressand search bar
[18:01] <kwwii> CimiDS: I have been very hesitant to use more than one engine
[18:01] <kwwii> not sure how stable that is, really
[18:02] <Cimi> kwwii: I haven't said use two engines
[18:02] <Cimi> kwwii: use two different istances of murrine
[18:02] <_MMA_> (with different options)
[18:03] <kwwii> ahh, right, I knew that :-)
[21:00] <Cimi> _MMA_: shot? :)
[21:01] <_MMA_> Sorry man. I have too much going on right now. Ill get you one soon.
[21:01] <Cimi> ok, I will go to bed in 3 hours
[23:45] <Mariuxtheone> Hi there