/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/09/02/#ubuntu-devel.txt

LaserJockcjwatson: at some point I'd be interested in a blog post on how you use VCS (or would *like* to use VCS) for packaging01:00
cjwatsonLaserJock: I've been meaning to do a developer video at some point01:02
LaserJockcjwatson: that would be good01:03
LaserJockcjwatson: I just haven't found a good workflow for bzr-specifically that seemed worthwhile01:04
LaserJockI'm maintaining packages with git in Debian and it seems to work ok01:04
cjwatsonI'm not doing anything particularly special with bzr for packaging01:04
cjwatsonI think maybe people are just looking too hard01:05
LaserJockbut I'm really kind of struggling to see a lot of improvements for Universe01:05
cjwatsonyou don't have to01:05
dmoernerLaserJock, have you seen this? http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/notes/debian/git.html01:05
cjwatsonas I've said multiple times in that thread, if you don't like it, you can ignore it01:05
LaserJockcjwatson: well, I don't think that's exactly accurate01:05
LaserJockwe don't want to have multiple methods around, it's very very confusing for new people01:05
cjwatsonit is necessary01:06
LaserJockand I don't think we can just ignore it01:06
cjwatsonpeople will continue to send patches01:06
cjwatsonwhatever you do01:06
cjwatsonand, frankly, I have a really hard time saying that our current processes are not horrifically confusing for new people01:06
LaserJockyeah, but if some people don't take bzr branches01:06
LaserJockthen that's not a cool thing01:06
cjwatsonif you step back and look at them dispassionately, they're horribly complicated01:06
cjwatsonand much of that is directly due to things that revision control precisely fixes01:07
LaserJocknot participating in an archive-wide workflow is going to cause issues01:07
LaserJockoh, I know they're complicated01:07
LaserJockbut they're largely documented01:07
LaserJockand consistent01:07
cjwatsonthey really aren't01:07
cjwatsonthere are two or three different versions of everything spread around the place01:08
LaserJockyou mean like patch systems?01:08
cjwatsoneven just things as simple as instructions for formatting and sending patches01:08
lifelesswow, 38K on using git01:08
cjwatsonpatch systems are a particular culprit, certainly, but an inherited one01:08
LaserJockright01:08
LaserJockyeah, it's not ideal, I'd agree01:09
LaserJockbut just adding complexity doesn't seem to help01:09
cjwatsonarchive-wide workflow: I think that will sort itself out over time, and will certainly be no worse than current reality01:09
LaserJockif we're gonna move it'd be nice to just move01:09
cjwatsonI ask people (who seem capable of producing them easily) for bzr branches for things, right now01:09
LaserJockbut trying to leave a lot of legacy seems like a mess to document and confusing for new people01:09
lifelessLaserJock: running two VCS systems is itself complexity :- the source package archive acts as a VCS on its own01:09
LaserJocklifeless: yeah01:10
cjwatsonLaserJock: IME, real systems that involve real people tend to involve real legacy handling01:10
LaserJockso far from my experience it's much easier to drop the DVCS and just use the source package VCS01:10
LaserJockbut I'm hopeful there'll be a time when that's not the case01:10
wgrantlifeless: The thing there is that at least the archive as a VCS has a format shared between us and Debian.01:10
wgrantbzr is not.01:10
lifelessLaserJock: nearly all of the complexity in this space is driven by retaining that VCS as primary; I'd like to see it become a read only mirror of a better, primary vcs [e.g. bzr] eventually01:10
cjwatsonwgrant: hence import work01:10
wgrantcjwatson: As much as I love bzr, importing everything seems rather one-way.01:11
cjwatsonwgrant: but hence also retaining the archive-as-VCS01:11
cjwatsonwgrant: not in the slightest01:11
lifelessLaserJock: the source package vcs has a number of serious scaling and participation problems. for instance, user assigned revision ids.01:11
wgrantSay we maintain something in bzr that Debian maintains in git. This is not going to be uncommon. How does this work?01:11
lifelesswgrant: its kindof-shared, but no deeper than two tailor imports of a CVS repo, when you look closely.01:11
LaserJocklifeless: I'm not saying it doesn't have problems01:12
lifelesswgrant: what do you think MoM is, if not a massively large scale tailor for debian source :)01:12
cjwatsonwgrant: regular incremental import from git to bzr. worst case, the other direction goes by patches; best case, you could probably use bzr fast-export | git fast-import to construct a matching git repository01:12
cjwatson(if you wanted to put that effort in)01:12
cjwatsonnote that the worst case is no worse than archive-as-VCS01:12
* lifeless stops his rant on the VCS-design-headaches of the archive01:14
lifelessI'd just written about three lines of rant :P01:14
LaserJocklifeless: the problem is, most people don't care :/01:14
LaserJockpeople just want easy ways of uploading packages01:15
lifelessLaserJock: we see prospective developers on  #ubuntu-motu DAILY that struggle with the archive-as-VCS problems01:15
cjwatsonI agree that there is likely to be some difficulty once people are sending bzr branches that some sponsors aren't interested in taking01:15
lifelessI want those daily problems to stop happening01:15
wgrantArchive-as-VCS does need to die. But moving to something incompatible with most of Debian seems odd.01:15
LaserJockwgrant: +101:15
cjwatsonmy suggestion there is that we develop a very simple tool that people can use to turn that bzr branch into a debdiff01:15
LaserJockcjwatson: sure, but it seems like just adding more "stuff" to the pot01:16
lifelesswgrant: debian is Archive-as-VCS, those two goals are incompatible unless you get debian to standardise on something not Archive-as-VCS.01:16
cjwatsonwgrant: only for sponsors, who by definition are more capable; and only for those people who deliberately want to avoid easier tools01:16
cjwatsonerr01:16
lifelesswgrant: and that debate has been going on since, *at least* 2004.01:16
cjwatsons/wgrant/LaserJock/ sorry01:16
wgrantlifeless: Debian seems to largely be moving to git.01:17
cjwatsonwgrant: I dispute "most"01:17
LaserJockcjwatson: what happens when somebody comes into #ubuntu-motu and asks how to contribute?01:17
lifelesswgrant: as a toolchain for managing packages, not as authoritative content.01:17
cjwatsona sizeable number of developers have moved to git, but very very many developers either use other systems (including bzr and svn) or have ignored version control altogether01:17
wgrantcjwatson: It is a not insignificant fraction, and it is growin.01:17
wgrant+g01:17
LaserJockwe say , well you can either use this method or the other method01:17
cjwatsonwgrant: I'm aware of that, but I completely dispute that that means we have to use git01:17
lifelesswgrant: (and I would dispute 'debian' - some prominent develoeprs sure, but other ones are arguing against git continuously)01:17
lifelesswgrant: also, svn was very popular at one point, and CVS01:18
cjwatsonLaserJock: we give them a single method on a wiki page, with footnotes in case they run into problems01:18
LaserJockbzr is hardly used outside of Ubuntu, which means most people will have to learn a new VCS01:18
LaserJockmany people don't know VCSs at all even01:18
lifelesswgrant: there is a huge difference between 'many packages are maintained in an external VCS' and 'Archive-as-VCS is going'01:18
wgrantcjwatson: I'd like to see us use bzr everywhere. But I'd like to not diverge unnecessarily from Debian.01:18
cjwatson"bzr is hardly used outside of Ubuntu" is a fallacy I'm getting tired of01:18
lifelessI'll say, thats news to me01:19
LaserJockthat's just my experience01:19
lifelessubuntu is our smallest user, IME.01:19
LaserJockI've seen a handful of repos from gnome01:19
LaserJockbut other than that ...01:19
* sistpoty pets good old cvs... stable as a rock, and as many features as a rock01:20
cjwatsonwgrant: I also don't think our directions to new contributors would be especially improved by moving to git01:20
cjwatsonit is by far the hardest of the current major contenders to learn01:20
LaserJockcjwatson: no, but it'd help them elsewhere at least01:20
lifelessthe last presentation I saw by a git user, on using git, they had a WTF moment on their second command.01:21
lifelessin front of a lecture theatre. And this isn't unusual.01:21
LaserJockgit's a lot easier for me to use than bzr, though I think bzr will be better in the end01:21
cjwatsonLaserJock: IME, there are as many ways of using git as there are git users01:21
cjwatsonso I don't think it would in fact help them01:21
cjwatsonbzr has been better for me since somewhere around 0.701:22
LaserJockI'm not particularly anti-bzr or anything01:22
LaserJockbut it's got some real issues when it comes to packaging, IMO01:22
cjwatsonnamely?01:22
azeemit's not svn01:22
LaserJockspeed and complexity01:22
LaserJockit takes forever to do anything01:22
LaserJockand it often require a lot of commands to do anything01:23
LaserJockformats keep changing01:23
cjwatsoncomplexity: very similar to svn for regular packaging use01:23
LaserJockevery time I go to do anything I end up spending a couple hours in #bzr getting help01:23
cjwatsonformats: name when bzr last broke an old format01:23
lifelessLaserJock: No VCS that I know of has finished its formats.01:23
wgrantI have the opposite experience to LaserJock.01:23
lifelessLaserJock: even git has been making changes.01:23
cjwatsonspeed: have to say it just isn't an issue for me with packaging01:23
LaserJocklifeless: it's never been a problem for me, that's all I can say01:24
wgrantcjwatson: The problem with formats is that one needs to be run bzr 1.somethingverylarge or one cannot read most of the repositories.01:24
sistpotylifeless: I'd say that cvs has :P01:24
wgrantBut then again, svn broke compatibility with 1.5.01:24
LaserJockbzr seems a bit more complex than any other VCS I've used01:24
LaserJockbut maybe that's just me :-)01:24
wgrantgit is as complex as you can get.01:24
LaserJockI do better with git than bzr for sure01:24
LaserJockthough I don't like git01:25
cjwatsonhow many git commands need options to do the right thing by default, and how many bzr commands need options to do the right thing by default?01:25
cjwatson(the same goes for cvs actually; less so for svn)01:25
lifelesssistpoty: actually, if you look - the atomic changeset UUID added is quite recent01:25
LaserJockI don't know, I rarely get bzr to do what I want01:25
cjwatsonthat truly amazes me01:25
lifelesssistpoty: only a few years ago now, and I believe there was a locking improvement done too.01:25
LaserJockand end up deleting my branches and tring something else01:26
cjwatsonthe basic commands are trivial and almost identical to svn01:26
sistpotylifeless: yeah, it was a bad move in the first place... I'm quite sure the one bug in cvs I saw during the last five years is from the uuid thingy *g*01:26
lifelesssistpoty: also, back in breezy I think it was, cvs added a race condition to commit, bug is still open.01:26
LaserJockcjwatson: if the basic commands actually did what I wanted then yeah01:26
lifelesshttps://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/cvs/+bug/1223001:26
ubottuLaunchpad bug 12230 in cvs "cvs checkout is racy, it wasn't in the past" [Medium,Confirmed]01:26
cjwatsonLaserJock: they do what I want, reliably and consistently01:26
LaserJockcjwatson: I'm required to use a much larger "vocabulary" of command in bzr than any other VCS01:27
cjwatsonthan git? you have to be kidding me01:27
sistpotybut also, cvs is as user-friendly as a rock... a particular spikey one, to be precise01:27
LaserJockgit's rather easy01:27
cjwatsongit's vocabulary is outrageous01:27
LaserJockgit has a nasty vocabulary, but I only need a small part of it to do what I want01:27
LaserJockbzr has a nice vocabulary, but I need to know a lot more of it than I'd like01:27
wgrantAre you sure that you're not trying to do different things in bzr?01:28
LaserJockwho knows01:28
wgrantI can't see how anybody could find git easier.01:28
lifelessrather than going generic here01:28
LaserJockwell, every time I try things in bzr there's some problem, some bug, some great new feature I need01:28
lifelesshow about - LaserJock next time you are willing to give bzr a shot, grab myself, or james_w, and we'll give you a hand01:29
lifelesswith the version in intrepid :)01:29
LaserJocklifeless: that's precisely the problem01:29
LaserJockI do that all the time01:29
LaserJockwith git I don't need to01:29
_MMA_LaserJock: +101:29
LaserJockI need hand-holding from bzr experts/devs to use bzr01:29
LaserJockbzr makes me feel stupid01:29
cjwatsonI have to say, I think you are the exception01:30
LaserJockgit, for the most part, "Just Works"01:30
cjwatsonthis is not my experience of other developers01:30
cjwatsonwithout wishing to denigrate your experiences01:30
LaserJockhg works somewhat too, though I have some of the same issues with it01:30
lifelessLaserJock: That offer wasn't for you, it was for me.01:30
wgrantLaserJock: I've never seen anybody else say that.01:30
lifelessLaserJock: I want to understand the way you approach your problems, so I can see if there is something I can improve in bzr to fit better.01:30
LaserJocklifeless: well, I do appreciate that01:31
LaserJockand I really do believe that bzr is gonna be awesome01:31
sistpotynow I may be dumb, but I seem to have the same problems as LaserJock with bzr01:31
nxvlcjwatson: isn't like 3 a.m. in your tz?01:31
_MMA_lifeless: I have precisely that issue. Where I use Hardy for most of my development but Im told, "Its fixed in Hardy". I dont see this as acceptable. I thing the packages in the current release of Ubuntu should be bleeding-edge or backports keeps up. SOmething.01:31
cjwatsonnxvl: 1:3001:31
_MMA_gah "Its fixed in Intrepid"01:31
nxvlcjwatson: oh! not that bad01:32
LaserJockyeah, I don't to track the bleeding edge in my VCS01:32
sistpotyand funnily enough, one thing which I first thought would be a problem from me using bzr wrongly, turned out to be a bzr bug... (though I guess that's really the exception *g*)01:32
LaserJockI've never had to use anything but distro git/hg/svn01:32
lifelesssistpoty: interesting; bzr is closer to rcs than cvs by default, have you used rcs extensively at any point?01:32
LaserJockbut I'm *constantly* having to get bzr stuff from source01:32
sistpotylifeless: nope01:32
cjwatsonI have not had to use non-distro bzr for about two years01:33
LaserJockcjwatson: I was told by #bzr that I should just use bzr (and any plugins/tools) from bzr branch01:33
lifelesssistpoty: that could be it; using a shared treeless repo w/switch might suite you better because that 'feels like cvs' pretty closely01:33
cjwatsonLaserJock: that's as may be, but nevertheless many people do not and it works just fine01:34
LaserJockI find that the formats have changed and I need to upgrade branches to get bzr to work01:34
cjwatsonnaturally, it depends what you're doing, but for simple use ...01:34
lifelessLaserJock: well, its not bad advice, because things do keep improving, but its certainly not mandatory - the vast bulk of bzr users are using packaged versions from their distro.01:34
LaserJockI'm the most basic of VCS users01:34
LaserJockI first learned about VCSs in Ubuntu01:34
cjwatsonall current default formats work in bzr/hardy, don't they?01:35
lifelessLaserJock: we haven't changed the default format since 1.001:35
cjwatsonunless you're using experimental things01:35
LaserJockI'm told I don't want to use the default format01:35
wgrant1.0 isn't even in gutsy...01:35
sistpotylifeless: actually I guess I (ab)used bzr to do this... :) (but then was tempted by the features, like merging, which is a very good thing imho, but just failed since I got it totally wrong)01:35
LaserJockbut some latest-and-greatest01:35
LaserJockI have no idea what the default format is01:35
cjwatsonLaserJock: by whom, specifically? ("#bzr" is not what I'm looking for)01:35
LaserJockthis is my point01:35
lifelessgutsy had 0.90, which can't read packs01:36
cjwatsondid you come to #bzr with some particular problem, or just ask for general advice?01:36
LaserJockI'm just trying to use the thing, but I have to know things about formats and VCS guts to use bzr01:36
cjwatsonyou really don't. friends of mine use bzr and have no idea about such things.01:36
LaserJockgit is nasty and has some of that problem too, but there's tons of Howtos around that help01:36
LaserJockcjwatson: by #bzr I generally mean bzr developers01:36
LaserJockand bzr-plugin developers01:37
cjwatsonhow about we be quite clear: the simplest possible use of bzr involves your system only, with a local repository01:37
LaserJockright01:37
LaserJockI do like bzr for local code01:37
cjwatsonbzr init .; bzr add .; bzr commit01:37
wgrantbzr init, bzr add, bzr commit. Can't get simpler than that.01:37
wgrantDamn.01:38
cjwatsonthere is no need to know anything about formats for that01:38
LaserJockyep, that's all wonderful01:38
lifelesscjwatson:  you don't need the '.'s01:38
LaserJockwell, except people tell me that I need repos01:38
cjwatsonthen you can push to another system, and you don't need to know anything about formats either01:38
cjwatsonlifeless: distraction01:38
LaserJockand that my repos need to be some specific format01:38
lifelesscjwatson: :P01:38
cjwatsonbzr push sftp:///othersystem/...01:38
cjwatsonLaserJock: "people". you're being vague again01:38
cjwatsonyou don't need repos01:38
cjwatsonunless you are doing something specific01:38
LaserJockcjwatson: well, it's happened at least 5 times, I don't remember all who01:39
cjwatson01:36 <cjwatson> did you come to #bzr with some particular problem, or just ask for general advice?01:39
LaserJockusually lifeless, jelmer, and a few others01:39
LaserJockabently sometimes I talk with I think01:39
cjwatsonit sounds like you were given advice that was more complicated than your needs, and I'm trying to figure out why; for example you might have asked for advice on reducing disk space for very large branches, and been pointed to repositories01:39
LaserJockmwhudson when it comes to LP related stuff01:39
cjwatsonbut if you just say "people" and won't explain what was going on in context at the time, it's hard to say01:40
LaserJockI usually come with "I can't branch something from LP, help?"01:40
cjwatsonI am amazed that anyone would have advised a repository in that context01:40
lifelessthere is one particular case that bzr gives people grief.01:41
LaserJockwell, it was helpful01:41
lifelessthe bzr-svn integration01:41
cjwatsonright01:41
LaserJockhmm, maybe that's it01:41
LaserJockI primarily use bzr through bzr-svn01:41
lifelessthat *does* require a non-default format, and tends to have *very big* branches because it has ancient projects01:41
cjwatsonthat's a pain, I agree. that's why I was asking *what LaserJock was doing and he wouldn't tell me!*01:41
LaserJockas I very very rarely work with code that's in bzr01:41
cjwatsonLaserJock: *now* you tell us, half an hour later01:41
LaserJockbzr just isn't used that much01:41
LaserJocklifeless: the other case was the ubuntu-doc repo, which had issues01:42
lifelessand, to add to the confusion, bzr-svn support has been changing a lot over the last few releases :- and I do mean a _lot_. Fixing major memory leaks01:42
cjwatsonI don't think bzr-svn problems are remotely comparable to how most people would be using bzr for Ubuntu package development01:42
lifelessubuntu-doc is another bzr-svn converted repo01:42
LaserJockok, but how am I supposed to know?01:42
LaserJockthis is exactly the kinds of problems01:42
LaserJock"oh, bzr is awesome except X, Y, Z"01:43
LaserJockand I'm always doing X, Y, or Z01:43
cjwatsonwell, is it not fairly obvious that using one revision control to work with another is likely to be a fairly difficult case?01:43
cjwatsonrevision control -> revision control system01:43
cjwatsonand worth mentioning up-front in this kind of discussion01:43
LaserJockcjwatson: difficult yes, common and critically important, yes01:43
cjwatsonsure, but worth mentioning up-front in this kind of discussion01:43
LaserJockmost packages in Debian that use a VCS use SVN01:43
LaserJockbzr-svn working well will be very important01:44
cjwatsonI'm going to keep battering on about this because you just had us talking for half an hour without mentioning that fact01:44
LaserJockcjwatson: I didn't know it was relevant?01:44
LaserJockshould I say every plugin I have installed?01:44
cjwatsonI asked several times for anything you could think of01:44
LaserJockI was told working with bzr-svn ~= working with bzr01:44
cjwatsonyou just said you were the most basic of users, which suggested to me that you weren't doing anything very complicated01:45
LaserJockI didn't think it was01:45
LaserJocksorry01:45
LaserJockI just bzr branch, bzr pull, etc.01:45
cjwatsonFWIW, I work with many Debian projects that use svn by means of Launchpad's vcs-imports, which don't involve bzr-svn right now01:46
LaserJockbut my experience is certainly not exclusively bzr-svn01:46
LaserJockI don't use vcs-imports anymore01:46
cjwatsonI understand there are some plans to move Launchpad to bzr-svn, but I hope that'll involve firming it up and getting the formats to be defaults01:46
lifelesscjwatson: I've said that bzr-svn is a bad idea for LP until its 'finished' more, including default formats supporting it etc.01:47
lifelessI hope I'm listened too :)01:47
cjwatsonin any case, as far as this phase of Ubuntu package development in Bazaar goes, interaction with other revision control systems is irrelevant01:47
cjwatsonit will hopefully become relevant later01:47
LaserJockI had 4 projects that I contribute to imported into LP, and 3 of them died without saying anything01:47
cjwatsonbut the first phase will only support it in the kind of way you're thinking of if separate imports have already been done01:48
LaserJockso I've moved to just using bzr-svn,git-{svn,cvs}01:48
cjwatsonso Ubuntu developers will not encounter this to start with; they'll be using bzr to work with bzr branches, period01:48
LaserJockcjwatson: why?01:48
LaserJockI just don't see how that's possible01:48
cjwatsonbecause we aren't solving every problem simultaneously01:48
LaserJockif I work on packages maintained by Debichem01:49
cjwatsonto start with, we're just importing package history, not a full fine-grained import from upstream with Debian branches and Ubuntu branches off those01:49
LaserJockthen I need to be able to work with SVN01:49
LaserJockso it'd make sense to use bzr-svn on that01:49
cjwatsonwe aren't solving every problem simultaneously01:49
cjwatsonthe reason it has taken four years to get to this point is that we were trying to do it the perfect way01:49
LaserJockdoesn't seem to me that you're solving *any* significant problems01:49
cjwatsonnow we are going to get it done, and fill in the perfection later01:49
cjwatsonas it happens, we will be solving many significant problems01:50
LaserJockI know there are a lot of "down the road" things going on01:50
LaserJockbut it's not really selling well, IMO, for the "right now" case01:50
cjwatsoneven just having a web-browsable archive of recent packaging history and current code for every single package in Ubuntu is a big deal01:51
LaserJock"Launchpad sucks so we'll use a VCS" doesn't really appeal all that well to a lot of people01:51
LaserJockmany people don't care about history, they just want to work on stuff01:52
cjwatsonpeople will be able to experiment with merge workflows that don't involve tossing diffs around, and figure out something better; people will be able to use multiple branches to handle work-in-progress; etc.01:52
cjwatsonwhat on earth has this got to do with "Launchpad sucks so we'll use a VCS"?01:52
LaserJockcjwatson: you said in your emails that LP doesn't give a good view of history so bzr would be better01:52
sistpotylifeless: btw, what does "N revisions where removed from the branch" tell me, which I get sometimes from RainCT's commits to revu-trunk as commit-mails?01:52
sistpoty(where N is usually 1)01:53
pwnguinlaunchpad sucking has nothing to do with using VCS01:53
cjwatsonLaserJock: please quote the exact text you're talking about so that I know what you mean, because that is not familiar to me01:53
LaserJockcjwatson: I'll try. I could be wrong, but that's what I remember anyway01:54
cjwatsonthe second phase of the Ubuntu/Bazaar plans involve a parallel import of Debian into bzr, which will mean that everyone can use 'bzr merge' in place of merge-o-matic if they so choose01:54
cjwatsonagain, per-upload granularity only, but that's the only level that many people are operating on, certainly for the bulk merge01:54
LaserJocksure01:55
LaserJockI know there's a lot of stuff going on, and I like quite a bit of it01:55
cjwatsonwhile we may not get there for intrepid+1 unfortunately, that stuff is not far off01:55
cjwatsonso I really think it's offensive to say that we're not solving any significant problems01:55
lifelesssistpoty: the rev number in bzr is done along the left-hand parents in the graph; RainCT is probably pushing to the common branch rather than using a checkout for edits on it.01:56
LaserJockcjwatson: I don't see it "right now" though, was what I was trying to say01:56
lifelesssistpoty: which means he may have a shorter path to his new tip, because he's done (say) 2 commits, then merged trunk, committed and pushed.01:56
LaserJockcjwatson: long term I totally see it01:56
lifelesssistpoty: but other people have done 5 or 6 commits.01:57
LaserJockbut *right now* I'm trying to figure out what the advantage is for me01:57
lifelesssistpoty: for things where a strict 'what was in mainline' doesn't matter, its completely normal01:57
cjwatsonLaserJock: "right now" == before it's implemented?01:57
cjwatsonI mean, sure - but I think that's sort of the trivial case01:57
LaserJockcjwatson: then why is it being talked about if it's not implemented?01:58
* LaserJock is confused01:58
cjwatsonLaserJock: is it not usually traditional to try to design things before finishing implementing them?01:58
LaserJockcjwatson: hmm, except I've not seen a lot about desgin01:58
LaserJockit's usually "trust us, we hired somebody to work on it"01:58
cjwatsonhmm, I think that's the sign I should go to bed and give up01:59
LaserJockI've been talking some with james_w and it does seems exciting01:59
cjwatsonthis type of conversation never seems to go well, I'm afraid01:59
lukehasnonameMay I say that I like Hardy's logout screen much more than Intrepid's?01:59
LaserJockbut I'm confused as to what I'm supposed to get out of your thread01:59
cjwatsonit's not my thread01:59
sistpotylifeless: I'm not 100% sure yet that I understand it correctly what it means... give me sec, and I'll pastebin you three consequent history events02:00
LaserJockcjwatson: ok, granted you didn't start most of it, you just posted a lot02:00
cjwatsonit's a discussion about the possibilities for how sponsorship could work given various proposed changes to infrastructure02:00
LaserJockcjwatson: I'm genuinely interested in how this stuff will work, how it can help me, etc.02:00
LaserJockthat's why I asked for a blog post02:01
cjwatsonwhich very shortly got derailed into people lobbing bricks about how bzr could never work for Ubuntu development02:01
LaserJockwell, *never* is a long time02:01
LaserJock;-)02:01
LaserJockI'm hopeful for the future02:02
sistpotylifeless: http://paste.ubuntu.com/42575/ (in chronological order from top to bottom, separated by #####)02:02
LaserJockbzr is just not very easy to me, so I'm a bit nervous about it happening soon02:02
lifelesssistpoty: that looks like RainCT pushed something, realised a mistake, so uncommitted, then pushed a fixed version02:03
LaserJockin any case, I need to go and I really wasn't looking for a fight02:03
LaserJockI'm going to try to take lifeless up on his offer02:04
sistpotylifeless: ah, ok, thanks for the explanation :)02:04
lifelesssistpoty: uncommit is different to 'commit the reverse' because we can't necessarily get a diff of what was uncommitted02:04
cjwatsonLaserJock: ok, sorry, maybe I shouldn't have engaged in one at getting on for 2am02:05
LaserJockcjwatson: np, I learned some stuff02:05
lifelesssistpoty: in CVS terms, its 'cvs admin -jdead 293 foo.c'02:05
cjwatsonLaserJock: I certainly will be posting something about packaging in bzr at some point, although exactly which areas I'm not quite sure02:05
lifelesssistpoty: or something like that02:06
LaserJockcjwatson: thanks02:06
sistpotylifeless: heh, thanks02:06
LaserJockI'd like to hear from the experts :-)02:06
cjwatsonBTW, if distro git is always just fine and stable forever, what's bug 250526 for? :-)02:06
ubottuLaunchpad bug 250526 in hardy-backports "please backport git-* 1.5.6 to hardy" [Wishlist,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25052602:06
LaserJockcjwatson: people gotta have crack? I have no idea02:07
sistpotywell, while I was pretty much impressed by siretart merging with bzr, I doubt it's too practical for what we see in regards to universe sponsoring...02:07
sistpotybecause I saw a number of merges which pretty much just grabbed the MoM output, than thinking about the merge02:08
cjwatsonsistpoty: I honestly think a good deal of that is down to it being impossible to construct a unified process right now because we just don't have branches for everything02:08
LaserJocksistpoty: yeah, I worry about that too02:08
sistpotybut of course that's an educational problem, which is imo neither solved by any tool02:08
cjwatsononce we have Ubuntu and Debian branches for every package, 'bzr merge' will be a much more natural thing to do02:08
LaserJockI heard a few "MoM is down, now I can't do merges"02:08
cjwatsonI can attest to it being *much* easier to merge packages that way02:09
LaserJockanyway, gotta run02:09
LaserJockthanks for the discussion, it was helpful to me02:09
sistpotycjwatson: that's not really the problem I was thinking of... it's rather the problem of "do the changes still apply" or "I have this tool, it works, though I don't know what I do, but I don't have any conflicts left"02:09
sistpotybut that's inherant to the tool in question imho02:09
sistpotyinherent? (it doesn't come from the tool used, but is educational *g02:10
sistpoty+*)02:10
cjwatsonthat's the opposite of inherent02:10
cjwatsonindependent of, perhaps02:10
sistpotyyes. that's it... /me will use only simply words from now on *g*02:11
sistpotysimple02:11
sistpotyargh02:11
cjwatsonI have never found merges straightforward to sponsor by any process02:11
sistpoty*nod*02:12
cjwatsonbeing able to use 'bzr diff -rancestor:../debian' and such can be a timesaver, but no matter what you end up diffing all over the place to try to figure out whether the change is sane02:12
cjwatsonthe cost-benefit ratio is significantly worse than when sponsoring ordinary patches; in terms of time, it's at least a factor of three worse02:13
ScottKWahoo.  Looks like I missed all the fun.02:28
StevenKHm? There was fun?02:28
* sistpoty heads off to bed, and then off to vacation... cya02:36
lukehasnonamelater.02:36
=== lamont` is now known as lamont
=== superm1|away is now known as superm1
dholbachgooooood morning05:44
pittiGood morning06:25
dholbachhi pitti06:25
lukehasnonamegood... yes, it is morning, isn't it?06:26
lukehasnonameholy crap, check this out: http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2006/03/google-browser.html06:29
lukehasnonamedamnit06:29
lukehasnoname5 secs after I post it I see it's fake.06:29
lukehasnonamewell not exactly, I just posted the wrong link06:30
lukehasnonamehttp://googleblog.blogspot.com/06:31
StevenKconftest.c:19: error: 'NULL' undeclared (first use in this function)06:34
* StevenK blinks06:34
StevenKI could have sworn NULL is a built in ...06:34
jdongno, it's a #define06:34
jdongbut it is funny to see it not defined06:35
jdongshould be unistd.h06:35
jdongeven stdio.h06:35
=== persia_ is now known as persia
\shwth? bzr: ERROR: dbus.exceptions.DBusException: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.Spawn.ExecFailed: dbus-launch failed to autolaunch D-Bus session: Autolaunch error: X11 initialization failed.07:38
\shwhat is that?07:38
lifelessits a bug in bzr-dbus07:39
lifelessregression actually I think ,cause by a dbus change.07:39
\shnice...I can't branch anything anymore ,)07:40
\shon intrepid that is07:41
lifelessremove bzr-dbus from the machine you are branching from07:41
\shlifeless: bzr branch lp:~ubuntu-dev/quassel/ubuntu ,-)07:42
lifeless\sh: oh!07:42
lifeless\sh: uhm remove it locally ?07:42
\shwill do07:42
pittilifeless: is there a particular reason why bzr doesn't record/log cherrypicks (bzr merge -c 1234) the same way it logs 'full' merges?07:43
lifelesspitti: yes, a cherry pick requires a non-transitive reference into the graph07:44
lifelesspitti: so we need a good,solid, compact, performs well, implementation of that07:44
pittilifeless: so in general it is desirable to do so, but is tricky to implement?07:44
lifelessright07:44
pittiok, thanks07:44
pittiI wondered whether there is a general conceptual reason not to do so07:45
pittitkamppeter: is there an STR for 90_include_krb5_h_in_job_h.patch.dpatch ? I didn't find one08:22
=== warp10_ is now known as warp10
tkamppeterpitti, what is 90_include_krb5_h_in_job_h.patch.dpatch about? The current CUPS does not contain this patch?08:51
pittitkamppeter: it does: debian/patches/include_krb5_h_in_job_h.dpatch08:52
pittitkamppeter: (the patch header said .patch.dpatch, I fixed this; the file name is fine)08:52
pittitkamppeter: look in svn trunk08:52
tkamppeterpitti, I have found it now, too. You have removed the unneeded numbers one day.08:52
pittitkamppeter: please svn update first, btw, I just did some changes08:52
tkamppeterpitti, I have loaded your last update now.08:54
StevenKpitti: Can I bug you for source NEW stuff? :-)08:54
pittiStevenK: if it's urgent, yes, otherwise it'll go with the normal archive days08:54
StevenKpitti: "Not really"08:55
didrocksBenC: around?08:58
tkamppeterpitti, I do not remember whether I have STRed this patch upstream, I think I created it very long ago (to introduce CUPS 1.3 into Ubuntu or so).08:58
tkamppeterpitti, can you STR it.08:58
pittitkamppeter: what was the bug? FTBFS? or it didn't work correctly?08:59
pittithe changelog fails to document the rationale08:59
tkamppeterThe topic still says "archive: open". So we can still upload CUPS 1.4 (or should we better fix the topic?).09:00
persiatkamppeter: The archive is open, but developers are expected to exercise caution about updates, and seek guidance from the relevant release teams about major updates.09:01
tkamppeterpitti, AFAIR it did not build without the patch.09:01
pittitkamppeter: we are in feature freeze, so I'd say "no"09:01
pittitkamppeter: build> ok, that's easy to check; will have a go at it09:01
pittitkamppeter: archive freeze != feature freeze09:02
pittithe former is whether uploads are allowed, the latter is which kind of uploads09:02
tkamppeterpersia, I am only asking, as for the last version FF was announced in the topic.09:02
persiatkamppeter: Ah.  Good point.  I'll adjust that.09:03
=== pitti changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: archive: feature freeze | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/feisty/gutsy/hardy, #ubuntu+1 for intrepid | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
persiapitti is faster :)  I was going to say "archive: open, feature freeze in place ..."09:03
pittipersia: feel free to adjust the wording :)09:03
persiapitti: All is good :)09:04
=== tkamppeter changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: archive: open, feature freeze in place | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/feisty/gutsy/hardy, #ubuntu+1 for intrepid | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
pittitkamppeter: oh, I just noticed that intrepid's cups is way apart from the svn trunk...09:26
tkamppeterpitti, yes, I have made one upload during your vacation and was about to ask you for resyncing to Debian now.09:27
pittitkamppeter: well, as you saw on pkg-cups ML, I plan to move to bzr anyway, so that we can have proper ubuntu branches09:27
pittitkamppeter: I can probably merge kees' PIE hardening to trunk, but the ufw integration is ubuntu specific09:28
pittiwell, I can make that ubuntu specific in debian/ruels09:28
pittitkamppeter: I assume yuor changes in 1.3.8-5ubuntu1 are in trunk? do you know whether ion_'s changes in 1.3.8-5ubuntu2 are in trunk as well?09:29
tkamppeterpitti, the Ubuntu package is the relevent one, with everything which ion_ and me wanted to have inside. I have committed it also into the Debian SVN. Can you check whether I did not forget anything in Debian, Merge everything missing into Debian and then sync Ubuntu and Debian again?09:29
pittitkamppeter: yes, will do09:30
didrockshum, good news, DD begin to accept the new Ubuntu management of deamon stop links (http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=495552). Just wait now this to be sponsored by u-m-s09:30
ubottuDebian bug 495552 in nvidia-kernel-common "nvidia-kernel-common: Please remove stop links from rc0 and rc6" [Wishlist,Closed]09:30
pittitkamppeter: btw, the package builds fine without include_krb5_h_in_job_h.dpatch, so I'll kill the patch for now, if that's ok for you?09:30
tkamppeterpitti, yes, seems to got fixed elsewhere (build system, .h file, ...)09:31
tkamppeterpitti, I have sponsored the 1.3.8-5ubuntu2 upload, and AFAIR I have taken everything of ion_'s patch also into the Debian SVN.09:32
tkamppeterBut please check.09:33
pittitkamppeter: ok, I'll give it a check09:33
pittitkamppeter: yep, looks fine; so I'll just commit the rest09:39
seb128hey pitti09:39
pittihey seb12809:40
seb128pitti: do you have any idea on how we could debug the "the retracer clean some bugs but don't mark those duplicates"? ie, it removes everything as it was going to dup those but doesn't09:40
seb128doesn't happen that often one every 30 bugs or something09:40
pittiseb128: hm, I thought we added a workaround for that, for not trying to duplicate to itself?09:41
pitti(which happened for retagging a bug)09:41
pittior does it happen to bugs which we didn't manually retag?09:41
seb128that is a good question, and I think I forgot to apply the workaround09:42
seb128you told me what to change but that was just before holidays and I had a busy day and didn't manage to do that09:42
famicomlo09:42
seb128bug #263795 is one example09:42
ubottuLaunchpad bug 263795 in rhythmbox "rhythmbox crashed with SIGSEGV in strcmp()" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26379509:42
seb128the first mail I got about this one was the retracer cleanup one09:42
seb128dunno if somebody retagged it though09:43
pittianything in the logs for it? does it say it's a dup?09:43
seb128the launchpad activity log is not powerful enough09:43
famicomoh thats a fun one09:43
famicommount unmount bugs09:43
famicomdoes anyone here know who is responsible for ubiqity09:44
seb128pitti: Report is a duplicate of #261923 (not fixed yet)09:44
seb128pitti: oh, it's trying to mark it duplicate from a bug which is already a duplicate and that's doesn't work on launchpad09:45
pittiaah09:45
pittihm, I thought the code would already have a case for that09:45
seb128that used to work I think09:46
pitti        # check whether the master itself is a dup09:46
pitti        m = Bug(master)09:46
pitti        if m.duplicate_of:09:46
pitti            master = m.duplicate_of09:46
pittimaybe that stopped working in current p-lp-bugs?09:46
seb128most likely09:46
famicomok, im going to get flamed for this one, but where in the hell can i get some decent low level info on the ubuntu install process. Everything i've found so far is completely useless09:46
seb128famicom: try #ubuntu-installer?09:47
famicomthank you ;)09:47
seb128pitti: ok, so as always iz p-l-b bog09:47
pittibug 26192309:47
ubottuBug 261923 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/261923 is private09:47
pittiseb128: testing...09:48
seb128pitti: I can mark it public if you want09:48
pittiseb128: should be ok09:48
pittiI can read it09:48
seb128ok09:48
pittiI'll do that in some 15 minutes when I am done with wrestling cups09:48
tjaaltonogra: you had some blank screen issues yesterday, see bug 26260510:04
ubottuLaunchpad bug 262605 in linux "[intrepid] X locks up or crashes when screensaver activates" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26260510:04
famicomugh10:11
famicomwhere exactly is the list of packages to install pulled from10:12
Hobbseefamicom: http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/seeds/ubuntu.intrepid/10:13
famicomso it's pulled from debconf10:14
wgrantNot as far as I'm aware.10:14
famicomso where do you specify this?10:15
Hobbseein the seeds.  they're in bzr under ~ubuntu-dev10:16
famicomthen how do i tell the installer which seed to use?10:17
StevenKHobbsee: ~ubuntu-core-dev10:17
Hobbseeoh, core dev, yes.10:17
famicomanyway, i see things like "ubiqiquity --desktop %k gtk_ui" , /preseed/cli.seed10:19
famicomand theyre' all not very helpfull10:19
wgrantubiquity doesn't know much about seeds, I don't believe.10:19
wgrantIt installs what's on the CD>10:19
famicomso if i were to remove all unwanted cruft such as openoffice and the gimp10:20
famicomthey wouldnt be installed/10:20
famicomI know this isn't directly related to development, but this information is so incredibly buried10:20
persiafamicom: Well, it also installs a set of tasks, so you'd have to be sure you weren't defining tasks for installation that included that which was removed.10:21
famicomok, so that's tasksel10:21
famicomd-ipreseed/late_commandstring chroot /target /usr/sbin/ltsp-update-sshkeys10:22
famicomi meant taskseltasksel/firstmultiselect ubuntu-desktop10:22
famicomat the same time, i see  /usr/bin/perl -w /usr/bin/debconf-communicate -fnoninteractive ubiquity10:22
famicomso something tells me that it's pulling info from debconf10:23
dholbachcjwatson: are the seeds on bazaar.lp.net the ones we use right now? (platform.intrepid, etc)?10:24
dholbachthings might have changed since the last time I touched them (ages ago...) :-)10:24
StevenKdholbach: Since like Hardy10:25
dholbachhm hm ok10:25
dholbachI was just looking into fixing bug 25662610:25
ubottuLaunchpad bug 256626 in ubuntu-meta "ubuntu-desktop recommends ttf-malayalam-fonts while ttf-indic-fonts-core already provide fonts for malayalam" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25662610:25
dholbachdoes somebody want the honours saving some space on our CDs with that? :-)10:26
wolfehmmm10:26
cjwatsondholbach: yes, they are10:27
dholbachok... I'll do it then10:28
cjwatsonpersia: ubiquity doesn't really install tasks; that's done at live filesystem build time10:29
persiacjwatson: Oh.  I thought it went through the whole d-i cycle based on the preseeds, and ubiquity only had a shortcut to the process which worked because of the way the live filesystem was built.10:30
* persia goes back to read more code.10:30
cjwatsonpersia: package installation is one of the bits it skips, by just copying the live filesystem10:31
cjwatsonit uses selected bits of d-i10:31
* ogra arghs about us having taken over the sily buerocracy of debian that packages *need* a "needs packaging" bug now ... sigh10:36
Hobbseeogra: i highly doubt anyone is going to stomp on your fingers as you didn't write one before packaging it.10:37
ograwell, i just did a REVU review where it was mentioned explicitly by the former reviewer ... probably https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages needs to be phrased differently then10:39
persiaHobbsee: No, but lots of people stomp on fingers for not filing one before uploading.10:39
broonieThe Debian one has only been *enforced* relatively recently.10:39
pittiseb128: confirmed, it's broken10:40
ograwell, its still buerocracy overhead ... i thought we'd be better  :)10:40
Hobbseepersia: oh, interesting.10:40
Hobbseeogra: when beaurocracy is the replacement for employing actual thought...what else do you expect?10:40
ograheh10:40
persiaHobbsee: It's REVU + the lintian warning that comes from Debian enforcing it.  Patch it out of lintian, and all finger stomping stops.10:40
Hobbseepersia: ahhh10:41
cjwatsonor teach people to apply human intelligence to lintian warnings, as was always the lintian authors' intention :-)10:41
Hobbseecjwatson: gasp.  what a concept!10:42
persiacjwatson: That would be ideal, but it comes down the the education issue...10:42
pittiseb128: filed as bug 263933, thanks for pointing out; I guess our grand master thekorn will fix it in no time10:42
ubottuLaunchpad bug 263933 in python-launchpad-bugs "duplicate_of has stopped working" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26393310:42
* pitti hugs theclaw10:42
* pitti hugs thekorn, too10:43
cjwatsondidrocks: reading that Debian bug you mentioned, note that runlevel 1 isn't equivalent to runlevel S in Debian; runlevel S is equivalent to runlevel S in Debian10:43
seb128pitti: thank you10:43
didrocks"runlevel S is equivalent to runlevel S in Debian10:45
didrocks" ? :)10:45
didrockscan you point me at any documentation,please? I have not found useful one...10:46
cjwatsonerr, well, you can see that there's a runlevel S by looking in /etc/rcS.d10:47
cjwatsonalso telinit(8)10:47
cjwatsonswitching to runlevel 1 has the effect of stopping lots of processes, and then switching to runlevel S to actually bring up single-user mode10:48
didrocksso, what runlevel 1 corresponds to in Debian/ubuntu if it is not single-user mode?10:49
didrocksoh ok10:50
didrocksI see that in the man now10:50
didrocksok, runlevel S doesn't stop the process before10:50
didrockscjwatson: thanks a lot to have clarified this :)10:51
ion_pitti: Yeah, all my changes are in SVN.10:51
cjwatsonno problem10:51
pittiion_: thanks for re-confirming10:51
pittiion_, tkamppeter: FYI, all remaining ubuntu changes committed to trunk, uploaded to experimental, and (fake-)synced to intrepid10:52
ion_pitti: 'stg clean' after 'stg rebasing' my patch stack against a branch 'git svn rebased' against SVN trunk deleted the entire patch stack, so everything should be there. :-)10:53
didrockscjwatson: so, now, I have just to wait for Ben to be there to see if we can upload all my waiting patches for removing the multiuser tags...10:53
pittiion_: heh, you import the svn to stacked git? I import it to bzr :)10:53
pittiseems that noone is actually using svn...10:54
ion_pitti: git-svn imports it to 'master', a plain git branch, and i have a stgit stack in 'ion' branch, which i 'stg rebase master' after changes to trunk.10:55
pittiseb128: I fixed it myself, and committed/pushed10:57
seb128pitti: you rock!10:57
ion_stgit is like quilt but without the pain. :-) (That is, having to learn a patch doesn't apply anymore the hard way, without the patch system doing no automatic merging etc.)10:57
* seb128 hugs pitti10:57
pittiseb128: can you please manually dup the bug above?10:58
pittiseb128: I'll roll out the fix to the retracers10:58
seb128pitti: I already did that ;-)10:58
seb128and an another one which was in the same case since10:58
pitti[done]10:59
pittiso, it *shuold* work now10:59
seb128excellent11:00
pittisebner: FYI, doing the eog new upstream version sponsoring now11:02
pittisebner: sorry, that should have gone to seb12811:04
tkamppeterpitti, what means fake-synced? Is real syncing not allowed after FF, even if no new feature gets pulled into Ubuntu by that?11:05
pittitkamppeter: it is allowed, I just didn't want to wait until tomorrow11:05
tkamppeterpitti thanks.11:05
ion_Ooh, my puppet module that fixes ubuntu fonts has whopping two (2) users. :-)11:08
pittiseb128: wb11:13
seb128re pitti11:13
pittiseb128: FYI, doing the eog sponsoring ATM11:13
seb128pitti: thanks11:13
\shpitti: do you have any update on directfb and tslib?11:25
pittiI didn't get to MIR processing yet11:25
loolbryce: running Xvfb in a chroot gives me: (EE) AIGLX error: dlopen of /usr/lib/dri/swrast_dri.so failed (/usr/lib/dri/swrast_dri.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory); adding libgl1-mesa-dri in the chroot fixes it; is this a dependency issue in xvfb?11:26
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
\shpitti: no worries :)11:27
jcristaulool: not really, you can run it with '-extension GLX'. also, failing to load swrast_dri shouldn't be fatal, iirc that's fixed upstream11:28
looljcristau: Packages using xvfb-run to run X11 testsuites wont pull libgl1-mesa-dri; you're saying it's fixed in that if not available it moves to GLX?11:29
jcristaulool: if that's not available, it disables glx instead of FatalError()ing11:29
looljcristau: That's fine then; I guess I should pull in the fix in our xvfb package11:30
tjaaltonlool: just give the commit-id and I'll add it11:41
tjaaltonlool: found it11:43
tjaaltonlool: do you need it for alpha511:43
looltjaalton: I don't strictly need it; I've worked around in the bdeps11:44
looltjaalton: Thanks for adding it11:44
tjaaltonlool: it's included in 1.5-branch, so when it's released later this week we'll have it11:45
looltjaalton: Ok; thanks11:46
cjwatsonjames_w: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/Specification moved from private wiki with mdz's OK11:54
=== Kopfi|offline is now known as Kopfgeldjaeger
Keybukpgraner: err, hi12:03
KeybukI CAN HAZ BOOTABLE KERNEL ON MAI LAPTOP?12:04
pgranerKeybuk: sure... got a bug number?12:05
Keybukpgraner: no, I can't boot it12:05
pgranerKeybuk: Need a bit more than that to work with12:06
Keybukerr, no info12:06
Keybukboot kernel => nothing happens12:06
Keybukit locks up inside the kernel somewhere12:06
Hobbseeoh, is this the boot hanging thing?12:06
* Hobbsee wondered what that was12:08
* ogra notices a certain creativity with pitti signing packages today :)12:38
pittiogra: WDYM?12:39
ograpitti, Changed-By: Martin Pitt <martin.pitt@ubuntu.com> vs Changed-By: Martin Pitt <mpitt@debian.org> :)12:40
pittioh, whoops12:40
pittiI still have my debian DEBEMAIL in one terminal12:40
ograheh12:40
Keybukpgraner: fully off the phone now12:43
Keybukseriously, what debugging information can I provide?12:44
KeybukDell Latitude D420, 2.6.27, if I pick it, nothing happens12:44
Keybukit doesn't even get to initramfs12:44
Keybuk(-2-generic apparently)12:44
asacogra: warrens email? just warren@redhat.com?12:45
pgranerKeybuk: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeamBugPolicies12:48
pgranerKeybuk: lots of techniques there to help you get started12:49
Keybukpgraner: all of these appear to rely on me being able to boot the thing ;)12:49
nxvlgood morning12:50
pgranerKeybuk: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingACPI look for the "Trouble Booting" section12:51
pgranerasac: if you mean warren togmai at redhat then thats the correct address12:53
Keybukkk12:53
asacpgraner: the warren from ltsp12:53
pgranerasac: thats him12:53
asacthanks12:53
pgranerasac: np12:53
james_wthanks cjwatson12:59
asacpgraner: didnt work ;)12:59
asac(the email address)12:59
hyperaircould someone look into bug #246053? it seems to be a packaging problem (wrong path for s2disk). debdiff included.13:00
ubottuLaunchpad bug 246053 in pm-utils "pm-utils doesn't detect uswsusp in hardy (with fix)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/24605313:00
pgranerasac: shit sorry, is Fedora is warren Red hat is: wtogami@redhat.com13:00
asacthanks ill try taht13:01
=== Kopfgeldjaeger is now known as Kopfi|offline
=== DrKranz is now known as DktrKranz
=== chandran_ is now known as aamachu
ograasac, Warren Togami <wtogami@redhat.com>13:09
asacogra: thanks. i think i got it right now ;)13:09
\shguys, anyone who has more clue about the buildd then I, please check this buildlog http://launchpadlibrarian.net/17228492/buildlog_ubuntu-intrepid-amd64.kdepimlibs_4%3A4.1.1-0ubuntu2_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz and tell me what's wrong...local sbuild doesn't fail (amd64 only)13:26
ScottK\sh: The log won't be there anymore because I retried the build.13:37
\shScottK: oh yes13:37
=== asac_ is now known as asac
cjwatsonRiddell: don't suppose you got anywhere with oem-config?13:42
didrockspitti: I will quote you a couple of time on wednesday's patching session. Don't be surprised of your are hilighted :)13:44
\shoh nice...who broke dbus?13:48
asacamitk: nspluginwrapper 0ubuntu2 should fix the worst issues13:53
asac(just uploaded)13:53
amitkasac: nice. Thanks.13:56
skymusshi13:57
Riddellcjwatson: not yet (I'm on holiday until thursday)13:58
* lamont wonders how to get firefox to not "randomly" steal focus14:00
lamontas in when a page finishes updating, maybe?14:00
cjwatsonRiddell: oh ok, thanks14:00
wgrantSpeaking of Firefox focus stealing...14:02
wgrantWho is to blame for the *default home page* doing that?14:02
asacwgrant: a combination of the "online/offline" page feature and the fact that firefox likes to take focus to the website when loaded14:06
wgrantasac: Wrong.14:09
wgrant<body onload="focus_search()">14:09
wgrantThat is deliberate.14:09
wgrantThe page steals focus.14:09
asacoh14:10
asacwell then ;)14:10
cjwatsonI think there ought to be a distinction between "adjust input focus location within firefox window" and "steal desktop input focus"14:10
cjwatsonthe former seems quite reasonable14:10
asaci am not really aware of the latter14:10
asacunless you open a new browser (window) maybe14:10
wgrantcjwatson: It's reasonable if you are behind a lightning-fast Internet connection and the focus is stolen immediately.14:11
wgrantBut as it is now, this search box steals focus from the real search box, leaving people with half a word in each.14:11
wgrantWhy there is search-box duplication I do not know.14:11
cjwatsonoh, so your complaint is actually about focus-stealing within firefox?14:11
wgrantIt is, sorry.14:11
cjwatsonagain, I actually think it's perfectly reasonable to have a notion of focus within a page that's separate from where your focus in the browser chrome happens to be ...14:12
wgrantIt's not separate.14:12
wgrantIt steals focus from the chrome.14:13
asacyeah. the focus maybe shouldnt move from chrome to website deliberately. not sure if that breaks usability for others though14:13
wgrantThe default home page shouldn't steal focus to its Google search box which duplicates the widget in the top-right of Firefox.14:13
cjwatsonwgrant: right, and I think that's a firefox bug not a page bug14:13
wgrantOr the default home page should load in a more trivial amount of time.14:14
cjwatsonanyway, bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+filebug would be the best place to object14:15
cjwatsonto something in the page14:15
tseliotseb128: I have to add some error and information messages to show in dialogs in the gnome control center. How does localisation work for this package?14:16
wgrantBug #23983114:16
ubottuLaunchpad bug 239831 in ubuntu-website "FIREFOX START PAGE:  Focus pulled to start page Google box" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/23983114:16
seb128tseliot: standard gettext, and please use normal sponsorship for those updates14:16
tseliotseb128: ok, thanks14:17
seb128need to talk to kees and bryce about doing random uploads without pinging the desktop team before ;-)14:18
asacwgrant: i added firefox-3.0 with a soft-milestone to that bug14:20
pittididrocks: no problem at all :)14:24
asacjdong: there?14:28
cjwatsondoko: have you had a chance to reassess bug 261847 in light of the new information? I'm assuming that the bug I referred to (and some other similar ones) were the reason for the recommendation14:30
ubottuLaunchpad bug 261847 in openjdk-6 "Installing openjdk-6-jre-headless pulls in dbus/avahi" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26184714:30
dokocjwatson: on my list (remembering an email from lool); can't read my email yet. my luggage including the power adaptor didn't make it until Berlin. they'll deliver it tonight.14:38
didrockspitti: thanks a lot :)14:39
saivannI'd like to request developers to take a look at security bug 55159 . I spoke of this problem with siretart and I attached patches to revert the changes, but I believe that this would need discussion14:40
ubottuLaunchpad bug 55159 in usplash "usplash prevents passwords from being not echoed on the console" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/5515914:40
=== Kopfi|offline is now known as Kopfgeldjaeger
didrocksdoko: around?14:46
dokodidrocks: just ask14:51
ograhe's not that round anymore either :)14:53
didrocksdoko: sorry, did you have the time to look at my email (something like 3-4 days before) on java2-runtime-headless which is not present in intrepid archives?)14:54
dokodidrocks: no, not yet, back from vacation today14:57
didrocksdoko: sorry for hearing that :) take your time, there is no rush.14:59
mdzasac: have you had a chance to look at bug 258552? it might help with NM bugs15:07
ubottuLaunchpad bug 258552 in network-manager "apport package hook for network-manager" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25855215:07
* asac looking15:09
fbondHi, I read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneTruePath.  I'm not sure this is documented anywhere obvious?  That page is also somewhat ambiguous as to whether we should be using /etc/profile or /etc/environment.15:09
cjwatsonthe intent is /etc/environment15:10
ograhmm, it was never parked as implemented actually15:11
ogra*marked15:11
Mithrandir/etc/profile is a shell script, so /etc/environment is the one, yes.15:12
cjwatsonI think "change pam to add default PATH to /etc/profile" was a typo for /etc/environment15:12
cjwatsonMithrandir: could you confirm that?15:12
cjwatsonsince that's what's actually done15:12
Mithrandiryes, that would be a typo.15:13
cjwatsonI've fixed it15:16
Mithrandircheers15:16
arahello, does anyone know if it is difficult (in terms of policy) to change the name of a pkg in main15:20
cjwatsonit's not hard in terms of policy, but can be a hassle both for developers and users15:20
arathe hw certification team have a tool hwtest, and the upstream project changed the name to checkbox15:20
cjwatsonit is usually unwise to change it in Ubuntu if it also exists with the other name in Debian15:20
arathe ubuntu pkg (only in ubuntu, not in debian)15:20
arashould be renamed also to checkbox15:21
lamontcjwatson: you for got to capitalize "UNWISE" ...15:21
cjwatsonara: you normally just need to upload a new package by the new name that includes Conflicts, Replaces, and Provides fields for the old package name, and once that's in the archive file a removal request for the old package15:21
cjwatson(subscribing the ubuntu-archive team)15:21
aracjwatson: thanks!15:21
cjwatson'checkbox' is an exceedingly generic term and does not strike me as a better name, though15:22
aracjwatson: i guess it is too late for intrepid, isn't it?15:22
cjwatsonnot necessarily, no15:22
asacmdz: thanks ... i added a comment15:22
aracjwatson: the reason is that it is no longer a hw certification only tool, but a generic test framework15:23
cjwatsonI'm not formally objecting to it or anything, it just seems asking for trouble in terms of future name clashes, that's all15:23
cjwatsonbut there's nothing by that name in the archive right now15:24
asacara: just curious, is there a spec or summary of what the testing framework does?15:24
fbondcjwatson: Should the preference for /etc/environment be documented anywhere else (i.e. on the system itself)?  ~/.pam_environment is not very obvious, at all, of course.15:25
araasac: well, more than a test framework, it is a test runner15:25
cjwatsonfbond: probably, but I'm not sure where would be appropriate15:25
cjwatsonperhaps ask the doc team15:25
fbondcjwatson: #ubuntu-doc?15:25
cjwatsonI think so15:25
mdzasac: can you confirm that the gconf command I suggested works?  I don't have any static config on this box15:26
fbondcjwatson: Thanks.15:26
cjwatsonkirkland: I notice that bug 33649 got reopened with very little new information. Do you know what's going on there?15:26
mdzasac: then I'll submit it via bzr15:26
ubottuLaunchpad bug 33649 in debian-installer "root raid installs have bad grub config" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/3364915:26
araasac: https://launchpad.net/checkbox is the upstream project. I am afraid that there isn't many documentation yet15:26
asacmdz: gconftool-2 -R /system/networking prints out reasonable things for me15:26
mdzasac: thanks15:27
mdzpitti: btw, it would be nice to be able to have some non-textual separator in apport report keys15:27
mdzpitti: I tried NetDevice-wlan0 and it simply vanishes from the report, similar for '_' IIRC15:27
kirklandcjwatson: i will ask for more information, but tricky1 has been a bit of a pain on this issue15:27
=== Pici is now known as ubotuu
pittimdz: that's not a problem with the separator, the ProblemReport class' __setitem__() just checks that key.alnum() is true (dots are allowed, too)15:33
pittimdz: that's a pretty arbitrary convention, I can easily allow characters like - and _; I just wanted to avoid potential problems with client-side parsers which might expect identifiers15:34
pitti(as in programming languages)15:34
mdzpitti: I can use '.'15:34
mdzpitti: the parser will be OK with it I assume?15:36
mdzpitti: it would be nice if __setitem__ threw an exception or something; it was very confusing that it disappeared silently15:37
pittimdz: yes, the parser splits on ':', so that should be ok15:38
mdzasac: I have a bzr branch with the changes; what would you like for me to do with it?15:38
pittimdz: it actually should, it uses assert15:38
pitti    def __setitem__(self, k, v):15:38
pitti        assert hasattr(k, 'isalnum')15:38
pitti        assert k.replace('.', '').isalnum()15:38
pittimdz: I even have a test suite check for that15:38
pitti        self.assertRaises(AssertionError, pr.__setitem__, 'a b', '1')15:39
mdzpitti: weird15:39
pittimdz: where exactly did it disappear?15:39
mdzpitti: that did not trigger for me, or else it did so in a place where I did not see it15:39
cjwatsonkirkland: yeah, I know15:39
cjwatsonkirkland: it was just on my sponsoring list so I noticed it15:39
pittimdz: you added something in a hook, and it didn't appear in the .crash file? or when you piped it to/from LP?15:39
mdzpitti: correct15:40
mdzpitti: the latter15:40
kirklandcjwatson: i'll respond, asking for more info, and mark it incomplete?15:40
mdzafter apport had processed the crash file and added the other keys, I noticed that one was missing15:40
cjwatsonkirkland: sure. Have you done an end-to-end test yourself to confirm that it is in fact working?15:40
kirklandcjwatson: good question; i have not from the latest install media;  i'm downloading the current ubuntu server right now, with the intention of performing that test15:41
pittimdz: actually the entire hook should crash on that (which doesn't cause the apport GUI to crash, though, just the hook to be ignored)15:41
pittimdz: so maybe it was the last field which was written?15:41
pittimdz: to be precise, the hook isn't ignored, but if it throws an exception, that is ignoored, and the hook is terminated15:41
mdzpitti: it would have been the last in my test, yes15:42
mdzpitti: would that have shown up in /var/log/apport.log?15:42
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pittimdz: unfortunately not, since that is only writable by root15:42
cjwatsonkirkland: it's easy enough for something completely distinct to break stuff (e.g. I tried to test an LVM problem yesterday and discovered that lvm2-udeb's dependencies were broken, so had to fix that first)15:42
pittimdz: it's just a simple try: execfile(); add_info() except: pass construct right now15:43
asacmdz: request a merge using the launchpad "merge" feature15:43
pittia better error logging would certainly be good here indeed15:43
asacmdz: or give me the url to fast-track ;)15:43
pittimdz: for a start, the UI could just print the exception to stderr, so that calling apport-gtk in a shell will reveal it15:43
mdzasac: done, https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~mdz/network-manager/ubuntu.0.7/+merge/90615:45
asaccool lets see15:45
mdzasac: I forgot to link to the bug when creating the branch; is there a way to add that?15:47
mdzpitti: that would be helpful when developing hooks15:50
asacmdz: yes you can add the branch to the bug ... there is a link below description "link to a branch"15:51
mdzasac: ah, I see it15:51
asacerr "link a related branch"15:51
asacthe launchpad diff view could be improved for the sake of reviewing15:52
mdzoh, someone already did it15:52
asacNEW files are not included in the diff15:52
asacmdz: maybe launchpad can now parse changelog? :)15:52
mdzasac: that seems worth a bug report on LP15:52
mdzasac: or maybe mentioning it in the bug comment triggered it?  some magic happened15:52
mdzthere's nothing in the activity log15:52
asacanyway, whatever that is, it is quite good - though the lack of activity log scares me a bit15:53
mdzI bet I get a lot of karma for this, it's a new LP feature ;-)15:54
ograreally ?15:54
asacany idea what launchpad product the code browser is maintained in?15:54
* ogra uses it in his cmpc product since quite a while15:55
mdzasac: you can just file on launchpad.net/launchpad15:55
mdzkiko tells me they triage all the bugs from there and move them to the right place15:55
mdzasac: but it's launchpad-bazaar for reference15:56
asacok ... i'll try ;)15:56
cjwatsonmdz: debcommit15:58
cjwatsonmdz: if you used debcommit for the change, and put an LP: tag in the changelog, debcommit now parses out those LP: tags and uses bzr --fixes lp:bugnum which turns into a related-branch object when the branch is pushed15:59
mdzcjwatson: *hug* debcommit16:01
cjwatsonit's all really quite nicely joined up now16:02
asacawesome ;)16:02
cjwatsonthank james_w for that change16:02
asaccjwatson: is that implemented in bzr itself or in a plugin?16:02
asac(i mean the --fixes op)16:03
pittiI recently noticed it as well, thanks to whoever did it16:03
pittiasac: it's in debcommit, I suppose16:03
cjwatsonasac: bzr commit --fixes is in bzr itself, though the lp: bit may be in the launchpad plugin16:03
pittimdz: traceback printing from hooks committed16:06
StevenKpitti: james_w, with a little of my Python help, if I can borrow some credit.16:06
* pitti hugs james_w and StevenK16:06
cjwatsonStevenK: ah, sorry, didn't realise you'd helped16:07
cjwatsonDYM perl help16:07
cjwatson?16:07
StevenKHm. Perhaps I'm thinking of something else that also implemented bzr --fixes16:07
StevenKAh, yes, I do mean Perl help.16:09
StevenKReading the code brings the memories of suggesting it16:09
StevenKmap {} FTW16:10
saivanntkamppeter : Did you have time to review my patches in bug 251972 ?16:11
ubottuLaunchpad bug 251972 in brother-cups-wrapper-mfc9420cn "Unnecessary dependency on csh" [Low,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25197216:11
saivannand bug16:13
saivann25687316:13
ion_Have you (people in charge of the DistributedDevelopment spec) considered using pristine-tar? E.g. git-import-dsc imports the extracted tarball to ‘master’ branch, uses pristine-tar to store a binary diff between a tarball exported from the given commit to the master branch and the original tarball to ‘pristine-tar’ branch and branches ‘debian’ branch from the ‘master’ branch and applies the diff.gz to it. cjwatson?16:27
cjwatsonion_: I believe that pristine-tar is in fact mentioned in there; if not, yes, it's been discussed and I think it's mostly a technical matter of where to store the delta16:27
cjwatsonat least for branches corresponding to .orig.tar.gz16:28
ion_Oh, i only grepped https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DistributedDevelopment/Specification for pristine-tar and didn’t notice it there.16:28
cjwatsonyeah, it appears not to be there16:29
cjwatsonjames_w: ^-16:29
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james_wcjwatson: it was discussed at the last sprint, I haven't written up the proposal yet16:44
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cody-somervilleslangasek, Why is Xubuntu failing to build? (Hash Sum mismatch)17:16
keesseb128: I touched vte and gnome-control-center (both went into bzr).  did I break something?17:26
seb128kees: hey17:27
seb128kees: not, just suprised to get a random UI change in gnome-control-center without any discussion on the ubuntu-desktop mailing list or in launchpad first17:27
seb128kees: usually people don't do random changes without discussing those first or that would be somewhat cahotic ;-)17:28
keesseb128: ah, heh.  upstream seemed supportive, and I chatted with bryce about it (since he'd done work on that widget)17:28
keesseb128: I didn't think it was a huge change, but I will try to be more vocal next time.  is the addition of aspect a problem?17:29
seb128kees: right, I don't say the change is wrong, I'm just not used to have people who don't work on a package usually uploading changes without discussing those with the team which does maintain the package, ie I would not do an xorg change now without asking #ubuntu-x or bryce before17:32
seb128kees: otherwise the change looks good, I'm just not sure about the alignments17:33
seb128the combo looks weird, I would probably try to align the ratios in a column or something17:33
keesseb128: hrm, yeah, I wasn't sure how to do that and still have it be a combo17:39
pwnguinsounds like a job for a certain usability expert ;)17:41
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=== wantilles is now known as arkara
bigoncould someone have a look at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/enchant/+bug/261075 ?18:26
ubottuLaunchpad bug 261075 in enchant ".pc files indirectly adds --export-dynamic to the linker flags" [Unknown,Fix released]18:26
jameswf-homeAnyone know why a seed file takes if placed in initrd but not if refered to externaly + why d-i seems to ignore some debian syntax18:35
jameswf-homeexample of ignored line d-i passwd/make-user boolean false18:36
torkelI'm not sure if using apport-gtk for creating a bug report that apport-gtk has crashed is always a good idea :-)18:38
cjwatsonDktrKranz: bug 71341; please don't recommend a patch system when people are changing files in debian/18:41
ubottuLaunchpad bug 71341 in cobex "cobex_get manpage is low quality" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/7134118:41
cjwatsonjameswf-home: that's only valid if you've also preseeded passwd/root-login to true, otherwise you end up with a system with no users18:42
cjwatsonjameswf-home: certain items can only be preseeded from the initrd or from the kernel command line, as the installation guide notes. This is because the early steps of the installer happen before the installer knows how to fetch files from the CD or the network. passwd/make-user is not one of those items, though.18:43
ogracjwatson, oh, wow, you uploaded (and edited) the lsusb thingie18:44
jameswf-homecjwatson: I understand that but nothing from the seed file takes hold outside but everything (except the user thing) worked inside initrd18:45
cjwatsonogra: yeah, took a little while18:47
cjwatsonjameswf-home: it does work in general (we rely on loading a preseed file from the CD for Ubuntu installations), so I need to know more details about what you're doing.18:48
ograyeah, the patch was hairy i glaced over it shortly but didnt have time for more about two weeks ago18:48
cjwatsonjameswf-home: what you're saying is that it doesn't work *for you*, so I need to understand what's different between what you're doing and the correct approach18:48
cjwatsonogra: it was on dholbach's list of stuff I was supposed to do. :)18:49
ograthe sheer size scared me away a bit18:49
ograright, but i said i'd review if someone did a patch18:50
jameswf-homecjwatson: I am doing it "the debian way" which is likely the root issue18:51
* ogra thinks sometimes we should rename bugs.launchpad.net to "sore conscience" ... it so often feels like that18:51
cjwatsonjameswf-home: I don't see why that would be the case18:52
cjwatsonjameswf-home: I'm a Debian d-i developer as well18:52
cjwatsonjameswf-home: first things first: which Ubuntu CD are you using?18:52
jameswf-homecjwatson: ubuntu-server 8.0418:52
jameswf-homecjwatson: I tacked on to the default ubuntu-server.seed18:53
cjwatsonjameswf-home: what is your interpretation of "the Debian way"?18:53
cjwatsonand can I see your preseed file?18:53
jameswf-homecjwatson: all the changes I have made are per the debian docs :: http://pastebin.com/m6a36d263 :: no commenting and I am by no means an expert (obviously)18:55
cjwatsonjameswf-home: could you also post the syslog from the installer? if you've completed an installation, it will be in /var/log/installer/syslog18:57
cjwatsonjameswf-home: you should remove debian-installer/language, console-display/kbd, and console-keymaps-at/keymap; your syntax for console-setup/modelcode is wrong (missing "string", should be all-caps "SKIP", and why are you preseeding that anyway when you're also preseeding a keyboard configuration?)18:59
cjwatsonjameswf-home: the locale and keyboard stuff must be done on the kernel command line or by initrd preseeding, not in a preseed file18:59
jameswf-homebecause had no luck with the other so tacked on18:59
cjwatsonjameswf-home: netcfg/get_hostname and netcfg/get_domain preseeding is unfortunately known-broken (bug 218965)19:00
ubottuLaunchpad bug 218965 in netcfg "preseeding hostname doesn't work in a network install" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21896519:00
cjwatsonjameswf-home: the rest of it ought to be fine, so if I see the syslog I may be able to figure out why it isn't working for you19:01
jameswf-homeI applied your suggestions I am going to roll an ISO real quick to test I will let it complete19:02
cjwatsonjameswf-home: thanks. I'm afraid I have to step away from the computer for a few hours, but stick around and I'll look at what you've got when I get back19:06
alex-weejhello19:07
alex-weejRGBA anti-aliasing seems to have regressed lately19:07
alex-weejare we still carrying the (legally questionable) freetype/cairo patches?19:07
ion_alex: My fonts look perfect with the correct settings.19:10
slangasekcody-somerville: mirror out of date for some reason19:15
LaserJockis https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev the best place to see if a package is maintained in bzr?19:43
cody-somervilleno19:43
LaserJockcody-somerville: ok, what is a better place?19:44
cody-somervilleapt-cache showsrc <pkgname> probably is19:44
LaserJockdoesn't that presuppose that X-VCS headers have been set?19:45
cody-somervilleslangasek, can you sync it and kick it off again?19:45
cody-somervilleLaserJock, Indeed.19:45
LaserJocks/headers/fields/19:45
cody-somervilleLaserJock, However, looking at ~ubuntu-core-dev is probably less likely of an indicator. Especially for special interest packages such as xfce419:46
LaserJockbetween ~ubuntu-core-dev and ~ubuntu-dev should it cover mostly everything?19:47
LaserJockor do individual people and teams maintain package branches?19:47
LaserJockRiddell: is KDEEdu maintained in bzr somewhere? apt-get source says that it's maintained in Debian SVN19:54
jpdsLaserJock: It's under ~kubuntu-members I think.19:55
jpds...and I don't think most people use the Bazaar branches there.19:55
RiddellLaserJock: it's not in bzr20:00
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LaserJockRiddell: ok, thanks20:00
=== emgent`NL is now known as emgent`nl
NCommanderpersia, you floating around?20:01
RainCTIs mvo on holiday or something? (because I can't find him on IRC)20:08
RiddellRainCT: yes20:10
RainCTRiddell: Ah. Do you know when he will be back, or if I can poke someone else for apturl changes?20:11
DktrKranzcjwatson, indeed! I misread it, sorry.20:11
RiddellRainCT: thursday20:12
jameswf-homeanyone have any thoughts? debconf: Obsolete command TITLE20:12
calcmy son turned 1 on sunday :-)20:15
_MMA_calc: Congrats! Mine turns 4 this coming Sun. :)20:16
calchttp://www.new.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30090053&l=f3c21&id=137683258320:17
calc_MMA_: wow almost ready for school :)20:17
_MMA_Yep. Daughter is almost 7. Makes me feel old. :)20:18
* jameswf-home has 7 soon to be 8 and 10 soon to be 11 20:18
* LaserJock has a cat20:19
_MMA_hehe20:19
* jameswf-home has 2.5 dogs and a cat...20:19
RainCTRiddell: Ah, I'll wait for him to come back then. Thanks :)20:56
=== mcasadevall_ is now known as NCommander
mathiazslangasek: is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PAMConfigFrameworkSpec implemented ?21:29
slangasekmathiaz: yes21:29
slangasekcody-somerville: apparently not, I evidently don't know what's causing the mirror sync failure21:33
cody-somerville: O21:34
slangasekcody-somerville: and I don't have time to look at it at the moment, I'm afraid; I'll try again late this evening21:34
mathiazslangasek: http://paste.ubuntu.com/42831/ <- is this a rather accurate short description of the new pam config framework ?21:35
mathiazslangasek: I'm writing up a blog post to recap what happened in the archive for ubuntu-server related packages (which include libpam-ldap and libpam-smbpass)21:36
slangasekmathiaz: pam_cracklib, pam_ecryptfs, and pam_ck_connector are also included in the list of modules that support it now21:36
slangaseklooks accurate though, yes21:37
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=== sabdf1 is now known as sabdfl
emgent`nlhello22:31
lukehasnonamehello22:35
=== Kopfgeldjaeger is now known as Kopfi|offline
Drusthi22:57
=== Kopfi|offline is now known as Kopfgeldjaeger
=== Kopfgeldjaeger is now known as Kopfi|offline
=== Kopfi|offline is now known as Kopfgeldjaeger
NCommandercjwatson, hola23:15
jameswf-homecjwatson: BTW your suggestions and in reading other suggestions by you in google found irc logs have resolved most of my issues...23:36
cjwatsonjameswf-home: obsolete command TITLE> completely unimportant; ignore it23:45
cjwatsonNCommander: hello23:45
cjwatsonjameswf-home: ok, though since you seem to have the syslog I'd be interested in a quick look23:45
cjwatsonjameswf-home: I'm curious what your problem actually was23:45
NCommandercjwatson, Is it possible we can get a change made to xubuntu hardy seed (or have it moved to our group; we need to make a seed change to resolve a bug)23:46
NCommanderI can cook up the branch to merge in a moment23:46
cjwatsonNCommander: it's late for me now, but please push the branch you want to ~xubuntu-dev and send me a reminder mail, and I'll move it across in the morning23:48
jameswf-homecjwatson: probably personal stupidity23:48
NCommandersweet, thanks cjwatson23:48
mathiazslangasek: there are two bugs in openldap related to the fact that the openldap user is not part of certain groups (ssl-cert and sasl) and thus upgrades stop working.23:49
mathiazslangasek: moreover if slapd is configured to use sasl or TLS the openldap user has to be added to the relevant group23:50
mathiazslangasek: what do you think about adding the openldap user to ssl-cert and sasl group automatically at install time ?23:50
jameswf-homecjwatson: I am doing some more tweaking this is the syslog from the lst iso roll http://pastebin.com/m2f1bfcb323:53

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