=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Sep 15:00: Server Team | 03 Sep 17:00: QA Team | 03 Sep 22:00: Platform Team | 04 Sep 13:00: Desktop Team | 08 Sep 04:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 03 Sep 20:00: Maryland LoCo IRC === lamont` is now known as lamont === persia_ is now known as persia === fdd is now known as fdd_ === fdd_ is now known as fdd === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach [11:54] persia: elkbuntu: TheMuso: lifeless: Hi [11:54] zakame: belutz: ? [11:57] persia: there? [11:58] elkbuntu: ? [11:58] Hello Board! [11:58] mmm... [11:58] Hey folks. [11:59] TheMuso: Hey :-) [11:59] amachu: Here now. [11:59] and its time now.. [11:59] persia: hey, we are three now [11:59] here [11:59] elkbuntu: gr8! [12:00] and lifeless? zakame? belutz? [12:01] it doesn't appear neither of amireldor, huayra, svaksha are here right now :-( [12:01] We definitely need some candidates for a useful meeting :) [12:02] Yeah, people would help. [12:03] i think we can wait a bit [12:04] * TheMuso reads their wiki pages while waiting. [12:07] * TheMuso thinks people should probably not publish phone numbers on the wiki. [12:09] dd/c [12:09] gah [12:10] TheMuso: Why not? Some people might like to get a call. [12:11] * persia remembers concerns about privacy when first being listed in the whois DB, and giving up after discovering the number of ways that data could be tracked [12:11] persia: This is true, but thats just me. [12:11] hehe fair enough. [12:11] TheMuso: I'm somewhat sympathetic: I believe all the telephone numbers apparently belonging to me and available over unecrypted connections are currently wrong. [12:11] amireldor is considered for ubuntu membership on two meetings?: Asia and Oceania and Europe, and Asia and Oceania ? [12:12] leoquant: At least on the agenda, but has yet to appear before either board. [12:13] ok [12:14] /c/c [12:14] my fingers are cold... [12:15] TheMuso: type faster :) [12:15] Yeah that is one option. [12:15] It's midwinter there, right? How cold does it get? [12:15] amireldor has been on our list for quite a long time (months) but never show up at a meeting [12:16] persia: It is late winter/early spspring now. [12:16] I am in a heated room, so that should help eventually. [12:17] indeed stgraber several months [12:21] Ok we have one candidate. [12:21] maybe we should add a 'choose the regional board that best fits your schedule' line? [12:21] * hubuntu is a candidate too [12:21] oops, amachu quit :s [12:22] hubuntu, which in the list are you? [12:22] huayra [12:22] huayra-the h [12:22] * elkbuntu clicks that wikipage [12:26] hubuntu: You live in Norway, focus on Ecuador, and come to use for your membership application? You're not a fan of sleep, are you? [12:26] I focus on Ecuador and Norway ;) [12:26] I come to you because I am a fan of sleeping [12:27] Oh, were the European and Americas boards scheduled at a bad time? [12:27] the emea board has not had a meeting for a while and the americas.. well, they have but it's always too late for me ;) [12:27] (3-4am) [12:27] I see. [12:28] it's 1pm here now, so it is quite a good time for me... hope it suits you too ;) [12:28] Oh, it's about as good a time as we can pick, given our selection of timezones. [12:29] So, while we're all reading your wiki page, perhaps you could give us a shorter introduction? [12:29] well indeed [12:29] I have been a GNU/Linux for 10 years, and ubuntu user since hoary came out [12:30] I contribute to documentation, translation, organize events, LP [12:30] I am the contact member for Ubuntu Ecuador [12:30] and work with other projects as well (SpreadUbuntu, CUPIE, Ubuntu Spanish Loco teams workgroup) [12:31] I am at the moment organizing the first ever SFD in Oslo [12:31] and I'm just in love with Ubuntu I guess... [12:32] I'm very excited about Ubuntu and specially interested in its commercial aspect of it as part of the whole ecosystem [12:33] besides that I believe in Software Freedom and that all users should have the availability to use the software in their own terms [12:34] as of now my focus is on contributing more to bugs/answer tracking and the SpreadUbuntu site [12:34] +1 from me based on loco contact work [12:35] Hi team [12:35] elkbuntu, is it happening here? [12:36] of course Ubuntu-ec and -no are in focus all the time [12:36] as I am interested in local participation and getting a community around both LoCo teams [12:36] persia, there? [12:37] aamachu: Indeed. Just trying to digest the volume of content. [12:37] I got disconnected for a while [12:37] Actually, I'm going to give up: I reached the point where I'd post +1 a while back, and am just being curious at this point :) [12:37] I should have made that page a bit shorter I reckon [12:37] hubuntu: Great work, excellent documentation of that work, and supreme testimonials. [12:38] persia, elkbuntu, agreed. +1 from me also. Some wonderful work here. [12:39] thanks for your work too, I've seen many of you around and your work for the Ubuntu community is great! [12:42] so is that a yes? Doesn't amachu have to vote? [12:42] hubuntu: Indeed: we like to hear from everyone present. [12:43] I have not brought many people here for many reasons but I guess there are people present that have seen me around... [12:44] and can maybe give some testimony of my deeds (all good and not so good are welcome ;) [12:45] hey, meisk [12:46] I work with meisok in ubuntu-es and CUPIE (Ubuntu-classroom and chat in Spanish) [12:46] yes, I confirm [12:47] hubuntu: help me all, in various projects [12:47] (sorry for my bad english..) [12:47] asac is been bothered by me lately regarding network-manager and mbca... [12:48] hubuntu: creates doc, and work for the spanish comunity === chandran_ is now known as aamachu [12:49] doc.ubuntu-es.org is the documentation site for the whole Spanish community, run mainly by Ubuntu-es and all other LoCo teams [12:50] aamachu: We are looking over hubuntu's application. [12:50] what application is that? (what meeting is right now?) [12:50] ubuntu membership [12:50] I'm not becoming a MOTU any time soon ;) [12:51] ok. i can ack that hubuntu has been active in the network manager mobile broadband wizard effort recently. [12:52] persia, elkbuntu. Thoughts? Where shall we go from here? [12:52] if he has been around longer in other teams in a similar fashion, then that would make a +1 from me [12:53] amachu: Do you have a working network connection now? [12:53] yes.. but its discontinuos [12:53] aamachu: Can you vote on hubuntu? [12:57] (i just read his wiki page and like it :)) [12:58] (thanks asac, I haven't read yours but I like your work with nm and ff :) [12:59] persia, the connection is discontinuos [12:59] i noticed the log, and the wiki of hubuntu [12:59] the contributions are commendable [13:00] Any questions? [13:02] no [13:02] please, go ahead if anything should be unclear [13:03] Well, according to the math we discussed last time, we may not need to wait for amachu's vote, but given that amachu is the secretary, it's someone important to have confirmation that the conclusion is agreed. === chandran_ is now known as aamachu === chandran_ is now known as aamachu [13:13] Right. Would anyone else be willing to volunteer as secretary in light of amachu's network issues? [13:14] persia, I will ensure a good ISP [13:14] :-) [13:16] aamachu: OK. How do you vote on hubuntu? May we welcome him as a member? [13:17] Yes [13:17] * hubuntu is happy :) [13:17] aamachu: I recommend/suggest you get a freeshell? In such a scene you wont be msising much discussion [13:17] I had sent the message, but to be missed again by disconnection [13:18] Excellent. Are there any other items for discussion this evening? [13:18] thank you... I am an Ecuadorian, living on Norway approved to become an Ubuntu member by the AsiasOceania board [13:18] tuxmaniac: the power problem in Tamilnadu, i the major cause [13:18] We are truly a global community ! [13:18] I need to have wireless. [13:18] *AsiaOceania [13:18] persia: others din't turn around? [13:19] amachu: There were four of us tonight. Three positive votes whilst you were being disconnected. No other candidates or board members joined. [13:20] persia: yes. I was referring to candidates registered [13:23] that being the case [13:23] we shall wind up the day.. [13:23] persia: there? [13:23] amachu: Usually. [13:24] amireldor & svaksha there? [13:24] fine then.. [13:25] We will conclude today's meeting [13:25] sounds good [13:25] hubuntu: Best wishes! and all the best for Team Eucador.. [13:26] Thank you [13:26] hubuntu: congratulations! [13:26] :) [13:26] Thank you all for participating! [13:30] Our next meeting will be on 09 Sep 08, 11.00 AM UTC === asac_ is now known as asac === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 03 Sep 17:00: QA Team | 03 Sep 22:00: Platform Team | 04 Sep 13:00: Desktop Team | 08 Sep 04:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 03 Sep 20:00: Maryland LoCo IRC [15:53] * nijaba waves [15:53] hi [15:53] hey all [15:59] good ...insert-your-time-of-day-here... all ! How is everyone doing ? [15:59] mathiaz: howdy [15:59] mathiaz: i'm particularly recharged [16:00] kirkland: scotch full? [16:00] too much thistle? [16:00] nijaba: ales too :-) [16:00] :) [16:00] o/ [16:01] o/ [16:01] * jdstrand waves [16:01] allright - let's get this started [16:01] #startmeeting [16:02] o/ [16:02] [Meeting started] [16:02] Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting [16:02] MootBot: Feel free to enter the game any time you find it convenient. [16:03] [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting. [16:03] Last week meeting notes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap [16:03] Last week meeting notes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080826 [16:03] [TOPIC] Ubuntu VM builder [16:03] soren: did you upload something new ? [16:03] I did indeed. [16:04] https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+queue?queue_state=0&queue_text=vm-builder [16:04] nijaba: did you get a chance to review the new package ? [16:05] * nijaba just started working on the tutorial today. [16:05] nijaba: are you using soren's bzr branch ? [16:05] nijaba: It should be mostly compatible with the old one. [16:05] I have a transition plan for when it's completely compatible. [16:05] mathiaz: yes [16:06] soren: yep, I'll send you a few notes later on that subject [16:06] Cool. [16:06] sommer: did you get a chance to look at the package also ? [16:06] nijaba: Any regressions from u-v-b to v-b should be considered bugs. [16:06] mathiaz: not yet, still on the list though [16:07] soren: have you wrote a blog post about your release ? [16:07] soren: so far, only finding regression with my intrepid branch [16:07] soren: or advertise the upload somewhat ? [16:07] mathiaz: he did on his blog, IIRC [16:07] soren: or you're waiting for the package to get through NEW ? [16:07] mathiaz: I will when it's actually in the archive. [16:08] I've announced stuff before their actual availability before... IRC was no fun for the next few days. [16:08] http://warma.dk/blog/article/90/ [16:08] [ACTION] soren to write a blog post about vm-builder once it's available in the archive [16:09] [ACTION] sommer to update the virtualization section of the server guide with references to the new ubuntu-vm-builder [16:09] there is also going to be a feature in the gss newsletter [16:09] nijaba: awesome [16:09] (first edition of a newsletter going out to support customers) [16:09] nijaba: where do you plan to push your tutorial ? [16:09] mathiaz: wiki once I have a first valid draft [16:10] mathiaz: h.u.c [16:10] nijaba: great - should we also write up something for the UWN ? [16:10] (once it's in the archive) [16:10] * nealmcb cheers [16:11] mathiaz: why not, but my to do is a bit full atm, so it may take a bit for me to write it [16:11] any volunteers? [16:11] [ACTION] nijaba to write a tutorial on vm-builder and put on the help wiki (h.u.c/community) [16:12] I"d think UWN would just want a link to soren's post? [16:13] nealmcb: seems like a good option [16:13] soren: could you ping UWN once you've published your post ? [16:13] mathiaz: How do I do that, exactly? [16:13] but the more posts/viewpoints the better, of course [16:14] boredandblogging: is your man [16:14] (Wow, it took me 5 seconds to type "exactly") [16:14] mathiaz: Ah, right. Will do. [16:14] soren: great ! [16:15] [ACTION] soren to ping UWN editor to get a paragraph about vm-builder in UWN [16:15] soren: anything else to report on the vm-builder front ? [16:15] Probably, but I think I'll save that for my blog post. :) [16:15] soren: thanks [16:15] let's move on [16:16] [TOPIC] Tomcat6 server stack support [16:16] Koon: thanks for writing the post [16:16] Koon: I've published it on ubuntuserver.w.com [16:16] np, a couple of nice reactiosn already [16:16] Koon: what's the state of the patches ? [16:17] Koon: it seems most of them have been sponsored [16:17] the remaining two are the conflictual ones [16:17] so it's more doko's decision [16:18] as our java platform master, he dedcides [16:18] Koon: do they pull in a lot of dependencies ? [16:19] there are two remaining bugs [16:19] bug 249178 has two aspects [16:19] Launchpad bug 249178 in ecj "libecj-java shouldn't recommend java2-runtime" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/249178 [16:19] one is that it pulls a full java runtime, that needs to be fixed and is undisputed [16:20] the other is that by recommending libecj-java-gcj you get a full GCJ runtime with it [16:20] Koon: right - I'm more interested by the space it may take on the isos [16:20] and at the moment it means a few X libraries through a libgcj9-0-awt recommend in libgcj9-0 [16:21] Koon: although we have a lot of spaces left on the -server isos, it seemed that there are a lot of deps pulled in [16:21] the other remaining bug is bug 261847 - this one pulls a lot through a libnss-mdns recommend in openjdk-6-jre-headless [16:21] Launchpad bug 261847 in openjdk-6 "Installing openjdk-6-jre-headless pulls in dbus/avahi" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/261847 [16:22] i'm not really sure what is not already on the server iso though. [16:22] Koon: ok - it's under discussion for now and the right person is involved [16:22] Koon: I'm back, looking at the latter. I'll fix the former as indicated in the bug report [16:22] doko: great ! thx [16:23] ok - let's move on [16:23] [TOPIC] Review ServerGuide for Intrepid [16:23] sommer: any news on the apache2 section from jjesse ? [16:24] mathiaz: haven't heard from him about that section yet [16:24] I added a support section though [16:25] I think it covers what dendrobates wanted, but if not just let me know [16:25] sommer: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/ubuntu-support.html ? [16:25] mathiaz: yep, that's it [16:26] i still owe sommer a review of the RAID stuff in there... i'll get to it this week [16:26] heh, cool... the ldap sections are all updated for cn=config as well [16:26] [ACTION] kirkland to review the RAID section of the server guide [16:27] sommer: I'll take a look at the cn=config stuff [16:27] mathiaz: great thanks [16:27] [ACTION] mathiaz to review the ldap section of the server guide [16:28] I think that's pretty much all the news from me :) [16:28] sommer: great ! [16:28] sections of the server guide that can be reviewed are listed in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidServerGuide [16:29] and reviews can be made from http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/ [16:30] sommer: could you update the roadmap mentionning the review work ? [16:30] sommer, is there a section in other ubuntu guides on support? seems like the story is the same for all editions [16:30] mathiaz: sure, will do [16:30] except for the lenght of time it is supported [16:31] sommer: so that potential contributors can dive in quickly [16:31] nealmcb: nope that's a new section [16:31] [ACTION] sommer to specify the review work on the Roadmap [16:31] and e.g. desktop guide doesn't mention it? [16:32] nealmcb: you may wanna ask the ubuntu-doc team about it [16:33] * nealmcb nods [16:33] nealmcb: ya, it may just have never came up before, or at least the commercial side of things [16:33] nealmcb: the desktop guide is actually used by yelp - so I'm not sure if it would be usefull there [16:33] mathiaz: ? [16:34] nealmcb: hm - it's up to the desktop guide author - I think the ubuntu-doc team is the best ressource to ask [16:35] let's move on. [16:35] * nealmcb nods [16:35] [TOPIC] # Server survey: official server online, call for volunteers for a last test and to prepare annoucement. [16:35] nijaba: ^ ? [16:35] IS has finally provided us with a host for the server survey! \o/ [16:35] I should have a RC of the survey by the end of the week [16:35] I would need some volunteers to check that everything is fine before the launch and start the announce as planned on the wiki. [16:35] I think a good launch date could be mon sept 22nd. [16:36] * sommer volunteers [16:36] nijaba: great ! I think owh was interested in that [16:36] nijaba: you may wanna get back to him [16:37] nijaba: should volunteer just email you ? [16:37] mathiaz: sure [16:38] nijaba: great - anything else on this subject ? [16:38] mathiaz: not unless someone has something to add [16:39] nijaba: did you add some questions to the survey ? [16:39] nijaba: or the questions are the same as the ones back in may ? [16:39] mathiaz: yes I did add the question from Redmonk, our partner, still waiting for something from Intel [16:40] but the survey will not be delayed further waiting for this [16:40] nijaba: ok. Thanks. [16:40] let's move on to review the Roadmap [16:41] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap#Documentor%20corner [16:41] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap [16:41] [TOPIC] UFW Package Integration [16:41] jdstrand: what's the state ? [16:41] jdstrand: it seems that things are moving well - most of the packages have been updated [16:42] ufw was uploaded before feature freeze [16:42] * nijaba hugs didrocks and nxvl for their work - awesome [16:42] also, thanks to didrocks and nxvl, all packages from the server tasksel list have been updated [16:43] and uploaded before FF [16:44] jdstrand: great - so I guess that's we're done for this cycle on the package integration front [16:44] jdstrand: ie we're not trying to add support for ufw to more packages [16:44] mathiaz: mostly-- there I a couple bugs to fix, but they are not FF dependent [16:44] s/I/are/ [16:45] jdstrand: ok - is there anything to be done on the documentation front ? [16:45] mathiaz: integration with ufw is a feature or a bug? [16:45] nijaba: a feature [16:45] if the former, then we are stuck, right [16:45] but, yeah, we are in good shape. I think didrocks is planning on working on squid and postgresql [16:46] nijaba: I have been considering it a feature-- but at this point it is no more that a Suggests and a file dropped in /etc/ufw/applications.d [16:46] nijaba: caused I started using dpkg triggers. so additional packages could probably get an easy FFe [16:47] jdstrand: is the content of the server guide up-to-date ? [16:47] jdstrand: cool to know. so we may get a few addt'l packages before release [16:47] jdstrand: I notice there is a section about "ufw Application integration" [16:47] Koon: did you add the definition for ufw in Tomcat? [16:47] nijaba: if you want to add some suggested packages to ServerTeam/Roadmap#UFW Package Integration, then maybe people will pick them up. I'd be happy to sponsor them [16:47] nijaba: no [16:48] mathiaz: I haven't reviewed it, but sommer and I talked about it some last week [16:48] jdstrand: adding Tomcat then ;) [16:48] jdstrand: mathiaz: yep, I made a few adjustments based on our discussion [16:49] sommer: great ! :) [16:49] anything else to add wrt to ufw ? [16:49] sommer: can you point me to it? I added a new option with the dpkg triggers changes, but it likely won't change anything you've done [16:49] mathiaz: as always, test and report bugs :) [16:50] jdstrand: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/firewall.html [16:50] jdstrand: ^^ yep [16:50] cool [16:50] jdstrand: are you planning to do a review of the section ? [16:50] mathiaz: yes [16:51] [ACTION] jdstrand to review the firewall section of the ubuntu server guide [16:51] [TOPIC] Open Discussion. [16:51] * nijaba added tomcat and libvirt to the ufw package integration list [16:52] nijaba: hmm, libvirt will be hard cause of nat... [16:52] As you know, we're passed FeatureFreeze now - so we're shifting our efforts on bug fixing [16:52] and testing [16:52] nijaba: soren and I have had some discussions about it, but I haven't come up with something good yet [16:53] alpha5 is also scheduled for thursday [16:53] jdstrand: ok, I guess you are the best judge. [16:53] but that would be very nice [16:53] so iso testing will be done in the next two days [16:53] oh I agree, but the ufw command doesn't do nat yet at all [16:53] specially if that can be done at the same time kirkland's meta packages get in [16:54] I would call for a ****group hug of mathiaz****, whom has been shaken a bit lately on ubuntu-devel. It was way too hard for all the good work that was put to it. [16:55] * kirkland hugs [16:55] * nijaba hugs mathiaz [16:55] nijaba: for nat and other fancy stuff, need to update /etc/ufw/*rules manually, there *may* be an improvement on that front, if the gui-ufw folks have anything to say about it [16:55] * Koon hugs mathiaz [16:55] * zul hugs mathiaz [16:55] * sommer also gives matiaz a big hug [16:55] * jdstrand gives mathiaz a big hug [16:55] * nealmcb hugs mathiaz and neilw for moving things forward on the rubygems front [16:56] thanks guys ! :) [16:56] yes, neilw deserves a hug as well! [16:56] anything else ? [16:57] * nealmcb wonders about mail and spam stuff - updates from scottk? [16:58] @schedule [16:58] Error: Please don't use @schedule during a meeting [16:59] nealmcb: it seems that all of the MIR have been written [16:59] nealmcb: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClamavSpamassassinInMain [16:59] :) [16:59] \o/ [16:59] sommer: wrote most of them [16:59] * nealmcb hugs sommer [16:59] * nijaba too [17:00] * nealmcb sends props to scottk [17:00] [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time. [17:01] next week, same place, same time ? [17:01] oh ya, that project should be good [17:01] +1 [17:01] wfm [17:01] me too :) [17:02] exzellentes - see ya all next week - don't forget iso testing of alpha5 images ! [17:02] #endmeeting [17:02] thanks for another great meeting mathiaz [17:02] thanks mathiaz, later on all [17:17] dholbach: hi there! i will see to be here for the CC. instead of going to bed when i should :) [17:17] thorwil: in a session right now, sorry === ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 03 Sep 17:00: QA Team | 03 Sep 22:00: Platform Team | 04 Sep 13:00: Desktop Team | 05 Sep 20:00: MOTU | 08 Sep 04:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 03 Sep 20:00: Maryland LoCo IRC === Rafik_ is now known as Rafik === thekorn_ is now known as thekorn === emgent`NL is now known as emgent`nl === leonel_ is now known as leonel === sabdf1 is now known as sabdfl [22:01] evening all [22:01] CC meeting now in progress [22:01] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommunityCouncilAgenda [22:02] who's here? i see elmo ;-) [22:02] we seem a bit light on CC people [22:02] word [22:03] the only other one I can even see on IRC is mdke, I've pinged him [22:03] you and i are total heavyweight's, though ;-) [22:05] well, my agenda item comes down to a question to you, sabdfl. brought it here as one can say it is about process ;) [22:06] let's hear it then [22:06] sabdfl: from the talk page: the central question is: Will sabdfl be ready to approve, modify or criticise such guidelines? If not, what is seen as the problem with this proposal? [22:06] it's a good proposal [22:07] thanks [22:07] we've already approved the idea that there should be at least two, completely / largely community-designed themes in default ubuntu [22:07] i reserve the right to have a strong hand in selecting those [22:07] but would be delighted to see a community-owned process defining them [22:07] as to the default [22:07] i would like to see community participation in that [22:07] work is in progress, but i do have some problems with strategic goals and audience, as neither gerry carr nor kenneth can help me there [22:07] in the past, i've spent a lot of energy trying to setup tools for icon management, for example [22:08] to get participation [22:08] we are in the process of hiring a lead designer [22:08] and i will look to that person to define the look and feel of the default theme [22:08] community participation in *extending* that theme will be welcomed [22:08] and community participation / leadership / definition of the other two themes is welcomed too [22:08] does that help? [22:09] kinda [22:09] in terms of audience, i think we have to aim for young professionals who are web-savvy [22:09] now that is helpful [22:11] is there more in the realm of strategic goals for ubuntu that you could tell me about? [22:11] things that are not clear from the philisophy? [22:12] sabdfl: and suppose i and anyone whi might help me do a really good job with these guidelines, would you given them your official blessing? [22:13] i think it would be important to give it extra weight in the artwork community [22:14] while actually have the default presentation in mind, all this should be as good for an also ran [22:14] if we are ambitious, we want to serve all human beings [22:14] right? [22:15] can't let apple have all the fun ;-) [22:15] so, the only reason i focused on young web-savvy professionals is they will be the standard-bearers for taking ubuntu to a wider audience [22:15] and they are probably attracted to particular ideas in design [22:15] like the iphone used web 2.0 ideas [22:16] sabdfl: troy sobotka will be delighted. he haas been talking about aiming at designers and young professionals [22:19] well, i guess i will see if i can define my skeleton guidleines enough to pusblish them to the artwork community. and also have to see if it can be aligned with the icon theme project Cory K. just started [22:20] thanks and good night! [22:20] yw! [22:20] elmo: aob? [22:20] not that I'm aware of [22:20] thorwil: good luck and I hope your mission is a success! [22:21] thanks! [22:21]