| tjaalton | pwnguin: if you have input-hotplug, evdev steals the input devices (if they have mouse/kbd capabilities) unless other drivers have fdi files for them, so yes, input devices in xorg.conf is generally not working anymore | 05:39 |
|---|---|---|
| tjaalton | dexconf might need an update | 05:39 |
| tjaalton | um, should | 05:39 |
| wgrant | Shouldn't dexconf go away? | 05:39 |
| tjaalton | there are some quirks left | 05:40 |
| tjaalton | kvm/ps3 stuff | 05:40 |
| wgrant | Ah. | 05:40 |
| wgrant | Is there currently a way to make input-device properties persistent besides hacking support into g-s-d? | 05:41 |
| tjaalton | bryce: ajax said that the server shouldn't poke acpid at all anymore :) | 05:41 |
| tjaalton | wgrant: not that I know of | 05:41 |
| wgrant | Unfortunate. | 05:49 |
| bryce | tjaalton: then how is it that the server is issuing warnings when acpid isn't present? | 05:49 |
| wgrant | But I guess it should all be exposed in capplets eventually. | 05:49 |
| tjaalton | bryce: I mean that the code should be removed altogether.. "shouldn't poke acpid in the future" :) | 05:51 |
| bryce | tjaalton: ahh. Is there an easy way to disable it without requiring major surgery, or should we leave it 'til intrepid+1? | 05:52 |
| tjaalton | wgrant: well, xrandr isn't persistent either | 05:52 |
| wgrant | tjaalton: True. | 05:52 |
| wgrant | g-s-d handles that now, doesn't it? | 05:52 |
| tjaalton | bryce: I haven't had a look.. upstream would like patches, so if it makes in 1.6.. | 05:52 |
| tjaalton | wgrant: yep | 05:52 |
| bryce | tjaalton: ah ok. well let's go with my patch in the meantime. | 05:54 |
| tjaalton | yep, sure | 05:54 |
| bryce | I forgot I had today off | 05:55 |
| tjaalton | how unfortunate :) | 05:55 |
| bryce | so all that git fussing wasn't needed until tomorrow ;-) | 05:56 |
| bryce | but on the plus side I got all my alpha-5 stuff in (well, xorg still needs uploaded) | 05:56 |
| bryce | and I implemented a quirk system for -ati for AGPMode quirking | 05:57 |
| tjaalton | really? how? | 05:57 |
| bryce | I used the same approach as -intel, but made it also account for the hostbridge's PCI ID. airlied and alex said it depends on both | 05:58 |
| tjaalton | ah, right | 05:59 |
| bryce | there's other factors that play into it though, so maybe more should be accounted for, but it's a start | 05:59 |
| bryce | probably should be ok for laptops that don't have involved BIOS options | 05:59 |
| bryce | which I'm guessing is going to be like 95% of the cases ;-) | 06:00 |
| tjaalton | yeah | 06:00 |
| tjaalton | bryce: what about applying xserver commit 5e847c1d4fc30a0d263a? | 06:58 |
| tjaalton | it would at least fix bug 261977 | 06:59 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 261977 in xorg-server "nv is chosen even if it doesn't support the card" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/261977 | 06:59 |
| tjaalton | and make the failsafe-stuff simpler | 06:59 |
| tjaalton | then we could also add patches to first try nvidia/fglrx if they are installed (but maybe this needs TB ack?) | 07:01 |
| * bryce looks | 07:17 | |
| tjaalton | the last fallback would be vesa for x86 etc | 07:19 |
| bryce | hmm | 07:24 |
| bryce | yeah I can see how this'll help when patched for nvidia/fglrx. I am not sure I see how this helps in general though... but upstream obviously accepted it, so... | 07:25 |
| tjaalton | if the "optimal" driver fails, it'll try the next one, and finally the fallback | 07:26 |
| bryce | will it? I don't see the failure handler | 07:27 |
| tjaalton | it has been there AFAIK, but not working | 07:27 |
| bryce | well in any case I can see that better fallback handling is the direction this goes | 07:28 |
| bryce | it looks like something else is needed in addition to this to do that | 07:28 |
| bryce | anyway, +1 for including this patch. | 07:28 |
| tjaalton | ok, I'll add it and test how it goes | 07:29 |
| tjaalton | the fallback thing | 07:29 |
| bryce | I don't think we need a TB ack to add something to load nvidia/fglrx if they're installed - I think it's a general principle that if the user installs something, then it's safe to assume that they want it, and to go ahead and "just work" from there | 07:29 |
| bryce | however obviously we should get working fglrx and nvidia before that ;-) | 07:30 |
| tjaalton | I'm just thinking about if it has negative PR implications | 07:31 |
| tjaalton | basically it would claim that we support the drivers, while we can't | 07:31 |
| tjaalton | or maybe we can draw the line somewhere between "we'll allow it to autoconfigure" and "you should report your crashers upstream" :) | 07:32 |
| bryce | would we accept that patch if fglrx and nvidia* were demoted to universe because the foss drivers were good enough? | 07:33 |
| tjaalton | dunno.. it's problematic since the free driver is always installed | 07:35 |
| tjaalton | so if you want to use the nonfree one, it should be on top of the driver stack to try | 07:35 |
| wgrant | s/universe/multiverse/, I hope. | 07:37 |
| tjaalton | yes | 07:37 |
| tjaalton | they could be demoted, because they're no longer part of lrm | 07:37 |
| pwnguin | plus, it doesn't mean anything special anymore like it used to | 07:40 |
| pwnguin | you previously had to enable universe repos | 07:40 |
| tjaalton | yep | 07:40 |
| wgrant | You still have to enable multiverse, don't you? | 07:41 |
| wgrant | I hope... | 07:41 |
| tjaalton | also, tseliot would be able to upload directly :) | 07:41 |
| pwnguin | it does mean that any joe motu can upload | 07:41 |
| tjaalton | that rarely happens | 07:41 |
| pwnguin | something that's basically in use everywhere and affects everything | 07:41 |
| wgrant | tseliot it's a MOTU. | 07:42 |
| wgrant | *isn't | 07:42 |
| tjaalton | oh, duh | 07:42 |
| wgrant | How'd I manage that, I wonder. | 07:42 |
| tjaalton | well, not yet anywya | 07:42 |
| tjaalton | -way | 07:42 |
| tjaalton | every motu should know to stay away from nvidia* :) | 07:42 |
| pwnguin | i can imagine one of two scenarios | 07:43 |
| wgrant | If we have MOTU who touch it inappropriately, they shouldn't be MOTU. | 07:43 |
| tjaalton | right | 07:43 |
| pwnguin | i guess theres already a few kernels in universe | 07:44 |
| wgrant | This is proving to be unfortunately common, but that's another story. | 07:44 |
| pwnguin | but nvidia is more popular than say -rt | 07:44 |
| wgrant | I don't think main exists just to keep some packages out of our reach. | 07:45 |
| pwnguin | well, it's supposed to denote some level of canonical annointing | 07:45 |
| pwnguin | annointedness? | 07:45 |
| bryce | essentially, we say we provide ongoing security fixes for stuff in main, but not universe | 07:46 |
| wgrant | That's all it means, right. | 07:46 |
| wgrant | Can Canonical guarantee updates for blobs? No. | 07:46 |
| bryce | right | 07:46 |
| pwnguin | would canonical refuse to update a blob found to be insecure and fixed? | 07:47 |
| tjaalton | so, I'd say that by not hardcoding the driver in xorg.conf would be better in the end, since then the fallback has a chance of working, which is more useful for the blobs anyway | 07:47 |
| bryce | tjaalton: sounds good | 07:48 |
| bryce | pwnguin: generally what I've been told is that doing SRU's of fglrx/nvidia is hardly ever going to be acceptable since we can't verify the source changes | 07:49 |
| pwnguin | how about | 07:49 |
| pwnguin | we put nouveau on the top of the stack | 07:49 |
| tjaalton | the only setting the nvidia's have in xorg.conf is NoLogo.. (71/96 has some AIGLX-stuff too) | 07:49 |
| pwnguin | then nvidia | 07:49 |
| pwnguin | then nv | 07:49 |
| pwnguin | PR solved | 07:49 |
| tjaalton | pwnguin: there is no usable nouveau | 07:49 |
| bryce | a security fix *might* be ok, but generally the blogs are released with a bunch of fixes, not just one cherry picked thing | 07:49 |
| tjaalton | release | 07:49 |
| tjaalton | if there were, I'd be all for it | 07:49 |
| pwnguin | bryce: oh right, you werent around for the last time nvidia had a remote exploit | 07:50 |
| tjaalton | pwnguin: it was fixed | 07:50 |
| pwnguin | tjaalton: yes it was | 07:50 |
| tjaalton | after edgy I think | 07:50 |
| tjaalton | or was it breezy | 07:51 |
| bryce | sounds nasty | 07:51 |
| pwnguin | javascript crafted to exploit a video driver? | 07:51 |
| pwnguin | nasty doesn't begin to describe the horror | 07:51 |
| tjaalton | heh | 07:51 |
| pwnguin | in such a situation, if canonical can't provide a fix, i'd almost say upload a new package that just removes it | 07:52 |
| pwnguin | tjaalton: there's no usable nouveau, or no usable nouveau in Ubuntu proper? | 07:55 |
| tjaalton | pwnguin: both. debian-experimental has, but they also have a libdrm snapshot | 07:55 |
| pwnguin | my laptop power cable is inthe mail | 07:56 |
| pwnguin | tjaalton: rihgt | 07:56 |
| pwnguin | RAOF has a ppa | 07:56 |
| tjaalton | yes, he's co-maintaining the d-e stuff | 07:56 |
| pwnguin | i havent tested it it recently, but it seems like it'd at least be a statement of support and cooperation | 07:56 |
| tjaalton | I don't think we have the manpower to support it.. upstream wont, that's known :) | 07:57 |
| tjaalton | they don't want users yet, developers are fine | 07:57 |
| pwnguin | nouveau, or d-e? | 07:57 |
| tjaalton | nouveau | 07:57 |
| tjaalton | when they can use stable drm interfaces and put out a release, the situation changes | 07:58 |
| pwnguin | of course | 07:58 |
| tjaalton | now that the drm release management has been reshaped, there's hope that nouveau will catch up too | 07:59 |
| tjaalton | my words | 07:59 |
| tjaalton | the GEM/TTM mess didn't really help either | 08:00 |
| tjaalton | but that's mostly done now I guess | 08:00 |
| pwnguin | does something bad happen if nouveau driver isn't found? i thought it'd fall back to the next available driver | 08:00 |
| tjaalton | right, it should | 08:01 |
| tjaalton | note that I haven't tried it yet | 08:01 |
| pwnguin | heh | 08:01 |
| pwnguin | it just seems like a token nod to their efforts that costs nothing, gets them a little, and gives you something to say when people ask why nvidia is picked over nv | 08:02 |
| tjaalton | yes, but when nouveau is better than nv, it'll be installed in favour of nv, and we are facing the same problem | 08:03 |
| pwnguin | oh. hrm | 08:03 |
| tjaalton | you install nvidia by yourself so you'd expect it to work | 08:03 |
| tjaalton | by the next LTS we'll hopefully have good FOSS drivers so we can kick nvidia/fglrx out of the door completely :) | 08:04 |
| pwnguin | the only reasonable option is order of quality, but nobody wants to hear that | 08:04 |
| tjaalton | intrepid+1 could have 3D support for all the latest ATI chips | 08:05 |
| pwnguin | im not so hopeful about 3D on nvidia. there's a plan and like one dude last i looked | 08:05 |
| tjaalton | yes it's more problematic | 08:06 |
| * bryce squints and wishes real hard for nVidia to disappear | 08:07 | |
| pwnguin | from my interactions with fedora users, apparently Canonical just needs to spend money to make it disappear, like Red Hat does | 08:09 |
| bryce | haha | 08:09 |
| pwnguin | i wish i was joking | 08:09 |
| tjaalton | they should just open up | 08:10 |
| pwnguin | damn 7.0B market cap | 08:10 |
| pwnguin | 51 percent will be hard to buy | 08:11 |
| jcristau | pwnguin: well, RH does a lot of work on X upstream. can't say that's true of canonical. | 08:11 |
| pwnguin | what? | 08:14 |
| pwnguin | well, | 08:14 |
| pwnguin | dave left, seemingly on not great terms | 08:14 |
| pwnguin | err | 08:14 |
| pwnguin | daniel | 08:14 |
| tjaalton | and about to leave nokia for... | 08:14 |
| pwnguin | oh? | 08:15 |
| tjaalton | later this fall | 08:15 |
| tjaalton | going back down under, don't know what to work on | 08:15 |
| pwnguin | hmm. tough one to guess. intel, or RH | 08:15 |
| pwnguin | maybe he can finish his degree ;) | 08:16 |
| tjaalton | another PhD on XI? | 08:16 |
| tjaalton | :) | 08:16 |
| pwnguin | bachelors | 08:16 |
| tjaalton | ah :) | 08:17 |
| pwnguin | his resume lists like a year of college | 08:18 |
| tjaalton | you know him personally? | 08:20 |
| pwnguin | nope | 08:20 |
| pwnguin | but i can read his website | 08:20 |
| tjaalton | heh | 08:20 |
| tjaalton | I know one australian chick that was at our school as an exchange student in -94/95, do you happen to know her?-) | 08:21 |
| pwnguin | look | 08:21 |
| pwnguin | im awake during the aussie time zone | 08:22 |
| pwnguin | but thats a personal failing, not an indication of where i live | 08:22 |
| tjaalton | oh damn, sorry :) | 08:22 |
| bryce | hehe | 08:22 |
| pwnguin | last i checked, kansas wasnt an australian province | 08:22 |
| * wgrant annexes pwnguin. | 08:22 | |
| pwnguin | wgrant: from what i hear, it wouldn't be much different | 08:23 |
| pwnguin | its gotta be a hell of a move, from australia to finland | 08:25 |
| tjaalton | hmm so when alice fell through the hole, she ended up in brisbane? | 08:25 |
| bryce | kangaroos and wallabies for instance | 08:25 |
| tjaalton | well we have polar bears running wild | 08:25 |
| tjaalton | (not) | 08:25 |
| bryce | tjaalton: I think you mean dorothy and a tornado | 08:25 |
| pwnguin | heh | 08:26 |
| pwnguin | his mastery of american culture is still better than my mastery of finnish | 08:26 |
| pwnguin | but thank you for the translation | 08:26 |
| bryce | just put on a steel helmet with horns, you'll fit in fine | 08:26 |
| pwnguin | well, parts of my family came from denmark and russia | 08:27 |
| tjaalton | man, I thought alice was the one who said "I think we are not in Kansas anymore" :) | 08:27 |
| pwnguin | alice was british | 08:27 |
| tjaalton | duh | 08:28 |
| pwnguin | or at least european | 08:28 |
| bryce | and she had a rabbit fetish | 08:28 |
| pwnguin | i dont think "kansas" existed when it was written | 08:28 |
| tjaalton | that's what you get for not seeing old classics | 08:28 |
| pwnguin | you've missed nothing | 08:28 |
| tjaalton | that line is so familiar to me because of Rainbow' | 08:29 |
| tjaalton | 's Finyl Vinyl | 08:29 |
| tjaalton | not because I saw the movie :) | 08:29 |
| bryce | kansas existed - had just finished sparking off the civil war or some such | 08:29 |
| bryce | ok I'll shut up now | 08:29 |
| tjaalton | oh and climate wise it's getting better here, local warming and such | 08:30 |
| tjaalton | or was it global | 08:30 |
| pwnguin | heh | 08:30 |
| pwnguin | well, john brown did raid a union armory | 08:30 |
| tjaalton | too bad that the winters are just wet | 08:30 |
| pwnguin | to attack the south | 08:30 |
| pwnguin | he's memorialized in our capital building | 08:33 |
| pwnguin | bible in one hand, rifle in the other | 08:33 |
| tjaalton | that's so modern | 08:33 |
| pwnguin | http://images.google.com/images?q=john%20brown%20mural | 08:34 |
| tjaalton | moses! | 08:34 |
| pwnguin | heh, it beats the time they put an indian on the top of the dome, and used a noose to hoist it | 08:34 |
| tjaalton | heh | 08:36 |
| tjaalton | uploaded xorg-server to my ppa to test the autoconf stuff | 09:43 |
| Hobbsee | hey there - have people reported regressions with compiz and the intel driver, with locking the screen making the computer freeze, and never bringing up a password dialogue? | 09:53 |
| tjaalton | Hobbsee: that's a kernel problem | 09:54 |
| tjaalton | and yes, I've seen that myself | 09:54 |
| * wgrant solved it by using metacity. | 09:54 | |
| Hobbsee | tjaalton: ahhh, thanks. | 09:54 |
| Hobbsee | tjaalton: do you know if people are looking into it, or? | 09:54 |
| tjaalton | but with .27-2-generic, it seems to work | 09:54 |
| Hobbsee | that was what i had, and it definetly wasn't working for me. | 09:55 |
| tjaalton | what chip do you have? | 09:55 |
| tjaalton | bryce: your acpi patch is broken :) http://launchpadlibrarian.net/17229928/buildlog_ubuntu-intrepid-amd64.xorg-server_2%3A1.4.99.906-2ubuntu3.1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz | 09:56 |
| tjaalton | maybe it's easier to just not log anything | 09:57 |
| Hobbsee | tjaalton: Display controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 945GM/GMS/GME, 943/940GML Express Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 03) | 09:58 |
| tjaalton | Hobbsee: ok, mine is 965 and it works fine now, even after a suspend cycle | 09:58 |
| bryce | oh, s/acpi_warning_msg_time/acpi_warning_msg_timer/. guess I should have compiled that one ;-) | 10:00 |
| Hobbsee | tjaalton: ah, it's https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bugs/262605 apparently. | 10:00 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 262605 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "[intrepid] X locks up or crashes when screensaver activates" [Undecided,New] | 10:00 |
| tjaalton | bryce: ok, will do | 10:02 |
| tjaalton | Hobbsee: yes, I'll reassign it to kernel | 10:02 |
| Hobbsee | tjaalton: thanks. didn't want to fiddle with it myself, and get the wrath of the kernel guys in my direction. | 10:03 |
| tjaalton | I'll point ogra to that bug | 10:03 |
| tjaalton | probably some drm funkiness | 10:05 |
| wgrant | Isn't DRM implicitly funky? Isn't that why it's being killed? | 10:08 |
| tjaalton | depends what DRM you mean :) | 10:11 |
| bryce | X11, the land of overloaded acronyms :-P | 10:12 |
| wgrant | The kernelly Xy thing. | 10:12 |
| tjaalton | direct rendering manager, yes | 10:12 |
| tjaalton | didn't know it was being killed though :) | 10:12 |
| tjaalton | reworked maybe, but it'll always be too complex for me to grog | 10:13 |
| wgrant | Where do TTM and co come into the equation? | 10:13 |
| bryce | TTM -> GEM | 10:13 |
| tjaalton | the memory manager is a part of drm | 10:14 |
| wgrant | Ah. | 10:14 |
| bryce | we *might* have GEM for intrepid. I was helping benc with it earlier but don't know the current state of things | 10:14 |
| Ng | tjaalton: interesting that the new kernel fixes it for you | 10:53 |
| Ng | Hobbsee: do you see that too? | 10:53 |
| Ng | I can't test for a while, my laptop just left for a trip to Scotland to be repaired :( | 10:53 |
| * wgrant tests. | 10:54 | |
| wgrant | (i915 here) | 10:54 |
| Hobbsee | Ng: where new kernel == -2? | 10:54 |
| Ng | Hobbsee: yeah | 10:54 |
| Hobbsee | Ng: that's the first place i see it, but i went straight from .25 to .27 | 10:54 |
| Ng | oh | 10:54 |
| Ng | fail ;( | 10:54 |
| Hobbsee | (so i don't know if -1 had the problem) | 10:55 |
| tjaalton | I'll try to reproduce with -1 | 10:55 |
| tjaalton | also, usplash works with .27 | 10:56 |
| Hobbsee | yes, surprisingly! | 10:56 |
| Hobbsee | it's nice to see it agai | 10:56 |
| Hobbsee | n | 10:56 |
| tjaalton | maybe they added v86d to the initrd | 10:57 |
| Ng | I manually install v86d and it updated the initrd and all that changed was that X refused to start | 10:57 |
| Ng | saying that it couldn't operate in framebuffer mode | 10:58 |
| wgrant | Well, that failed. | 10:58 |
| wgrant | -2 from 12 hours ago doesn't even suspend on i915 when compiz is running. | 10:58 |
| tjaalton | well, can't reproduce with -1 either | 10:59 |
| tjaalton | compiz was updated recently.. | 11:00 |
| tjaalton | nope, not the compiz update. it only un-blacklisted mobile ati | 11:16 |
| tjaalton | wow, now it blanked again | 13:12 |
| tjaalton | with -2 | 13:13 |
| tjaalton | Ng: do you think bug 258923 is fixed now with .27? | 13:23 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 258923 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "Black VGA output on Intel G45 (aka x4500hd)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/258923 | 13:24 |
| Ng | tjaalton: I've never plugged anything into the VGA output on mine. I could dig around for a VGA cable and try, I'm pretty sure my TV has such an input | 13:25 |
| Ng | (I literally own zero monitors at this point ;) | 13:25 |
| Ng | laptops and digital TVs for the win :) | 13:26 |
| * tjaalton <3's the 24" benq :) | 13:26 | |
| tjaalton | Ng: oh and thanks for trying it out | 13:30 |
| tjaalton | Ng: what about bug 258925?-) | 13:31 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 258925 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "Horizontal lines on Intel G45 (aka x4500hd) output" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/258925 | 13:31 |
| * Ng looks | 13:33 | |
| Ng | I think I know what that is | 13:33 |
| Ng | ok the mouse jumping thing mentioned in that is not related, I see that on everything, and it happens to a lesser extent on login on hardy afair | 13:34 |
| Ng | but the black lines thing I think is kernel dependent | 13:35 |
| Ng | if I booted my X300 on hardy's kernel with intrepid userspace, I got loads of inch-long horizontal black lines on the screen | 13:35 |
| tjaalton | the mouse-jumping is soon fixed, with the same patch that should fix flickering | 13:45 |
| Ng | nice | 13:49 |
| wgrant | Is this mouse jumping the thing where the cursor freezes and jumps to the bottom right by a few cursor-heights, then recovers? | 13:58 |
| tjaalton | recovers when you touch the mouse, yes | 13:58 |
| tjaalton | annoying as hell | 13:58 |
| wgrant | Hmm. | 13:59 |
| wgrant | Maybe not identical to what I see, then. | 13:59 |
| wgrant | Mine will continously jump. | 13:59 |
| wgrant | Until it has finished logging in. | 13:59 |
| tjaalton | jcristau: looks like the autoconfig patch didn't work right, no fallback-mechanism or something missing: bug 261977 | 13:59 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 261977 in xorg-server "nv is chosen even if it doesn't support the card" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/261977 | 13:59 |
| wgrant | It used to just do it once while gdm was starting. | 13:59 |
| tjaalton | it does it every time a gtk app starts | 13:59 |
| wgrant | Right. | 14:00 |
| wgrant | That sounds plausible. | 14:00 |
| tjaalton | so you can demonstrate it yourself by running xrandr -q | 14:00 |
| tjaalton | and then touch the mouse | 14:00 |
| wgrant | That doesn't affect my mouse. | 14:00 |
| wgrant | It just shows some apparently uninitialized textures for a frame or two. | 14:01 |
| tjaalton | ah | 14:01 |
| tedg | It is a known bug to have X start up and not have a keyboard/mouse? Then if I restart X it's all happy. | 18:56 |
| tedg | I'm guessing that it's not finding HAL on first start. | 18:57 |
| tjaalton | right | 18:57 |
| tjaalton | known | 18:57 |
| tedg | Okay, then I'll be quiet :) | 18:57 |
| tjaalton | hal should be started earlier.. | 18:57 |
| tedg | Well, yes, but X should detect when HAL starts also. That's easy to do with DBus. | 18:58 |
| tjaalton | I've never seen that though, but there are bugs about that | 18:58 |
| tedg | It happens to me on every clean boot. I'm not sure if there's anymore debugging I could provide, but if so, I'm all for it :) | 18:59 |
| jcristau | pretty sure patches to detect when hal starts would be accepted | 19:01 |
| * tedg has fear of X, he always makes sure there's at least 2 levels of abstraction between him and X at all times :) | 19:05 | |
| jcristau | i just do that for xkb | 19:06 |
| bryce | tedg, chicken! | 19:58 |
| bryce | tedg: actually X code is just plain C and fairly well documented. Easier than Inkscape ;-) | 19:59 |
| bryce | well, "fairly well" might be a stretch. But more documented than Inkscape's code ;-) | 20:00 |
| tedg | bryce: I think it comes down to: "What happens when I mess up?" -- "Can't draw" vs. "at a terminal prompt" | 20:14 |
| bryce | bawk bawk bawk | 20:15 |
| tedg | bryce: Why don't you just go do the patch I want and show me up :) | 20:15 |
| bryce | ah, but then we miss the valuable learning experience for you | 20:16 |
| tedg | How much work have you done with DBus? I'd really like you to learn more about "the future" (tm). | 20:16 |
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