[00:17] <ghindo> Hi, is anybody else having trouble updating python-gobject?
[00:19] <RAOF> Yes, everybody.
[00:20] <RAOF> There's some (presumably temporary) archive skew; nothing to see here.
[00:27] <ghindo> Ah, cool.
[00:27] <ghindo> RAOF: Thanks
[00:40] <theunixgeek> Is there a package available that has libgtk2.0-dev and all its dependencies in it?
[00:42] <RAOF> theunixgeek: Yes.  libgtk2.0-dev
[00:43] <RAOF> I'm obviously confused as to what you actually want.
[00:43] <theunixgeek> RAOF: but then it has to download all the dependencies' packages with it
[00:43] <theunixgeek> I'm looking for an all-in-one
[00:43] <theunixgeek> because I don't have internet on my Linux computer :(
[00:43] <theunixgeek> I want to wget the package from my mac
[00:44] <RAOF> Right.  So, that's not the way we work, so there isn't such a package.
[00:44] <RAOF> On the other hand, there are tools to create a script which will download the package and all its dependencies.
[00:45] <theunixgeek> RAOF: I know but some of the downloaded packages didn't install correctly :/
[00:45] <theunixgeek> namely libc6
[00:45] <trontonic> I'm having trouble with libc6 too
[00:45] <RAOF> You were using apt-zip?
[00:45] <theunixgeek> RAOF: synaptic
[00:45] <RAOF> Oh, that includes the apropriate functionality?  Awesome.
[00:46] <RAOF> Anyway, so we've moved on to your _acutal_ problem then; libc6 hasn't installed correctly.
[00:46] <RAOF> Got the dpkg output for trying to install libc6?
[00:47] <theunixgeek> RAOF: yes - that it installs correctly :)
[00:47] <RAOF> Ok.  So, how about the _failed_ dpkg log? :)
[00:48] <theunixgeek> RAOF: nothing :)
[00:49] <RAOF> Ah.  It now works, then.  Great.
[00:53] <theunixgeek> I have to go now, good night
[01:30] <bsnider> the python-gobject problem has been fixed
[01:37] <doggymenz> in 8.10 final, will audio finally not fuckup?
[01:38] <doggymenz> so i can listen rhythmbox and watch youtube?
[01:39] <void^> look into libflashsupport, and bug adobe about their bugs? :)
[01:39] <doggymenz> isnt this a problem of pulseaudio?
[01:40] <doggymenz> its not only adobe, i cant use rhythmbox and eSpeak or Festival together at same time either
[01:40] <doggymenz> flash works great when you dont use rhythmbox, and rhythmbox works great when you dont use flash
[01:41] <doggymenz> its not flash problem, its integration problem
[01:41] <doggymenz> both apps work fine alone, just not together
[01:43] <void^> looks like your soundcard doesn't support hardware mixing, so you'll always have some amount of trouble
[01:44] <doggymenz> works great in windows
[01:44] <void^> now the issue is if pulseaudio is active, all apps using pulseaudio will run fine but others won't be able to use the soundcard
[01:44] <doggymenz> you can play flash and rhythmbox at same time?
[01:44] <void^> if pulseaudio is on standby a single other app works
[01:44] <void^> windows drivers always do software mixing
[01:44] <doggymenz> then linux should do software mixing too
[01:44] <void^> you can also set up alsa to do software mixing of course
[01:46] <RAOF> doggymenz: pulseaudio _does_ do software mixing :)
[01:46] <void^> yes, for those apps that support it which is probably most now. there's also a wrapper for oss available, padsp
[01:47] <doggymenz> obviously not, else rhythmbox would be able to work together with flash, eSpeak, Festival, etc, it dont
[01:47] <RAOF> There are some integration problems; it'd be nice to turn on ALSA->pulse by default, too.
[01:48] <void^> flash is just a piece of garbage software. they've quite literally "outsourced" the problem by introducing support for this liblfashsupport thingie
[01:48] <doggymenz> yeah, flash on linux works garbage
[01:48] <RAOF> Flash 10 is much better about not abusing the ALSA API, too.
[01:48] <void^> i don't know those other applications
[01:48] <doggymenz> poor performance too
[01:48] <doggymenz> i wonder why ALSA dont do software mixing
[01:48] <intangir> i just booted the intrepid disk
[01:48] <intangir> goes to a black screen
[01:49] <LSD|Ninja> doggymenz: because open source devs are lazy
[01:49] <void^> it _can_ do, but it nomally doesn't since hardware mixing is better
[01:49] <intangir> when i try to shutdown my computer it shows the ubuntu progress screen for shutting down ;)
[01:49] <doggymenz> and why is software mixing needed? doesnt all audio since 10 years do hardware mixing?
[01:49] <RAOF> doggymenz: It does.  But pulseaudio doesn't use it, because it introduces unpredictable latency.
[01:49] <void^> yours doesn't?
[01:49] <intangir> all the older versions for the last few years have worked fine on my hardware
[01:49] <RAOF> doggymenz: Audio hardware is moving to the CPU, now that they're infinitely fast.
[01:49] <intangir> doggymenz: alot of hardware doesnt do hardware mxing
[01:49] <intangir> all the AC97 stuff doesnt
[01:49] <intangir> and that is probably about the most common audio hardware now
[01:49] <LSD|Ninja> yeah, and AC'97 has only been around for like, 10 years
[01:50] <LSD|Ninja> The reason this problem continues to exist even after all this time is laziness, pure and simple
[01:50] <intangir> also with software mixing you can set volume levels and outputs stream by stream
[01:50] <intangir> you cant do that with hardware mixing
[01:50] <intangir> thats already, with pulseaudio
[01:51] <intangir> later who knows what kind of effects/filters youll be able to do stream by stream
[01:51] <doggymenz> yeah, effects/filters would be awesome
[01:51] <RAOF> Well, there's already positional effects, but that's more for sound notifications than anything else.
[01:51] <doggymenz> like if i use a microphone, it make me sound like a girl lool
[01:51] <void^> pulseaudio is quite nice, though i usually use it just to redirect audio to another room easily
[01:52] <intangir> doggymenz: they have that with direct audio on windows ,but it would be cool to have weird effects like that on linux too
[01:52] <doggymenz> yeah
[01:52] <doggymenz> didnt know they have that
[01:52] <intangir> ive heard people using it on ventrilo
[01:52] <intangir> which runs on linux ;)
[01:52] <doggymenz> oh cool
[01:52] <doggymenz> they sound like girl?
[01:52] <intangir> they sound like a chipmunk more like
[01:52] <doggymenz> hehe
[01:52] <intangir> also like a scary low voice hehe
[01:52] <intangir> you can do weird effects
[01:53] <doggymenz> wonder if it can make me sound scottish
[01:53] <intangir> doubtful
[01:53] <doggymenz> hehe
[01:53] <crimsun> I'd like to clear the misconception that ALSA doesn't do "software mixing" by default.  It does, and in fact, has since 1.0.9b.
[01:53] <intangir> i had the dmix .. thing
[01:53] <intangir> since for a long time
[01:53] <intangir> it does software mixing
[01:53] <doggymenz> yeah, but with bad latency?
[01:53] <intangir> i havent noticed much latency issue with it
[01:53] <crimsun> no, with tolerable and mostly negligible latency.
[01:54] <intangir> like maybe 200ms at most? i dont know
[01:54] <doggymenz> oh
[01:54] <crimsun> all the "horrible latency" FUD is just that.  FUD.
[01:54] <x1250> how could pulseaudio have better latency than alsa? is that possible? :S
[01:54] <intangir> pulse is pretty damn badass though
[01:54] <void^> crimsun: ah. didn't know that. might be why i'm rarely encountering issues on non-hardwaremixing boards these days :)
[01:54] <intangir> pulse even has a new method they are going to use thats going to be super awesome
[01:54] <intangir> it does weird stuff with buffering
[01:54] <intangir> there will be like zero latency
[01:54] <intangir> i forget what they were calling it
[01:54] <crimsun> x1250: glitch-free in git has smarter semantics.
[01:54] <intangir> it may be out by now.. oh ya glitch free
[01:55] <void^> one disadvantage of pulseaudio is noticeable cpu overhead
[01:55] <intangir> im loving pulse
[01:55] <intangir> it can do amazing things. like this listen.. i have a server with NO AUDIO HARDWARE
[01:55] <intangir> i can run pulse, i can run audio streams to 'null streams' and then use that null stream as a recording source
[01:55] <crimsun> void^: by default, yes, because speex-3 is used.  speex-1 has virtually unnoticable difference in resampling (to the user's ears) with lower CPU usage.
[01:56] <intangir> and then broadcast xmms audio over ventrilo on a machine with no soundcard
[01:56] <intangir> its pretty sweet
[01:56] <intangir> you can do tons of other amazing things with it
[01:56] <intangir> you could sorta do it with .. arts? i think before. but it was a tremendous pain in the ass to setup
[01:56] <intangir> and you had to do it EVERYTIME you wanted to run it
[01:56] <intangir> and also it required tons of utils
[01:56] <crimsun> there's so much confusion and FUD surrounding Linux audio that I'm giving a talk on it at OhioLinuxFest.
[01:56] <intangir> now i configure it once, and it remembers the settings and works, with no more than the default installed tools
[01:56] <void^> crimsun: right, thanks. i'll take a look on their site and read up before talking more garbage :]
[01:57] <intangir> i was skeptical of pulse audio at first but i am totally loving it
[01:57] <intangir> and it works with all the other sound library.. things
[01:57] <intangir> like oss apps can use it with padsp
[01:57] <doggymenz> crimsun, does Vista or Mac OS X have better audio than Linux?
[01:57] <intangir> and alsa apps can output to pulse instead of soundcard
[01:58] <crimsun> doggymenz: that's a contextless and thus, unanswerable, question.
[01:58] <intangir> ive never seen features like pulse has in windows
[01:58] <intangir> windows has other features thatl inux doesnt have yet though
[01:58] <intangir> but i think the windows features are more of things youd never use. and dont care about
[01:58] <doggymenz> someone should make comparison
[01:58] <crimsun> intangir: padsp suffers the same drawbacks that every preloadable library for Linux audio does.
[01:58] <intangir> and the linux features are things youd never think of, but once you have them holy shit are they ever badass
[01:58] <intangir> crimsun: what drawbacks?
[01:59] <crimsun> intangir: OSS relies on mixing semantics that cannot be done reliably from userspace.
[01:59] <crimsun> that is why OSS has always done mixing in kernelspace.
[01:59] <intangir> im not sure what that means really, im using it though and it seems fine
[01:59] <intangir> havent had any problems with it
[01:59] <intangir> actually it works better than OSS did
[02:00] <crimsun> intangir: try using padsp with multiple OSS apps that rely on mmap access.
[02:01] <bsnider> i'd say vista's userspace sound system is better than pulse right now
[02:01] <doggymenz> can you apply effect to a stream? like if i play piano, it will sound like piano is inside draculas 1800 year old stone castle?
[02:02] <crimsun> bsnider: I disagree w/ that assessment under the most common Vista uses.
[02:02] <bsnider> because all volume control is on one easy pane even for apps that don't normally have volume controls but do use sound
[02:02] <intangir> crimsun: im using it with wine
[02:02] <intangir> i use it on ventrilo and world of warcraft
[02:02] <intangir> they both share it fine
[02:02] <intangir> without any issues, with real OSS and also with alsa i had tons of lock ups, crashes, and it would just stop working without any obvious error.. other than no audio
[02:02] <crimsun> intangir: now try it on a different audio chipset that doesn't support it.
[02:02] <intangir> but with pulse ive had 0 issues
[02:03] <intangir> im using it on a soundblaster live, and an AC97 thing
[02:03] <intangir> it can even play to both at once
[02:03] <crimsun> intangir: of course, those both are mmapable.  And they're both AC'97, BTW.
[02:03] <crimsun> or to be pedantic, they both implement some AC'97 spec revision.
[02:04] <crimsun> bsnider: I certainly do not disagree that UI is much better integrated in Vista.
[02:04] <crimsun> you should keep an eye on what Fedora 10 offers in terms of integration.
[02:04] <bsnider> pulse does this too, but not so conveniently
[02:05] <bsnider> a pulse plugin for alsamix that integrates volume controls for apps would be nice
[02:05] <doggymenz> does it exist those voice alter machines that the murderer guy uses when he calls up the victims on the phone in movies?
[02:05] <doggymenz> they exist in real?
[02:06] <crimsun> vocoders?  Of course.
[02:06] <doggymenz> oh
[02:06] <crimsun> bsnider: if I understand what you're alluding to, that's being tackled at both the app and the PA layers.
[02:07] <doggymenz> can you have a virtual software vocoder in linux?
[02:07] <crimsun> currently - at least in GNOME - the mixer controls are a mess.  Per-app volumes are utterly discombobulated.
[02:07] <bsnider> vista not only has volume controls for apps that don't normally have them, like msn messenger, the control is persistent even whent he app isn't actually using sound, which is superior to what pulse does
[02:07] <crimsun> bsnider: as I mentioned, that's being addressed in PA and in GNOME apps.
[02:07] <intangir> alls i know is pulse audio is kicking ass for me
[02:08] <intangir> also intrepid wont boot for me!
[02:08] <intangir> thats why i came in here
[02:08] <bsnider> the volume control in pulse for pidgin will come and go too quickly to be useful
[02:08] <bsnider> i hope fedora does fix it
[02:08] <intangir> it shows loading, then goes toa  ablack screen, till i close it
[02:08] <intangir> till i hit power i mean
[02:08] <intangir> anyone else here still use xmms ;)
[02:09] <intangir> i havent found another player than can be used for an AUDIO and VIDEO playlist
[02:09] <bsnider> why would i?
[02:09] <bsnider> banshee
[02:09] <intangir> a searchable playlist too
[02:09] <intangir> uses mplayer plugin to play movies
[02:09] <intangir> i like mplayer out of all the movie players best
[02:10] <bsnider> can't kmplayer do that?
[02:10] <bsnider> or kplayer?
[02:10] <bsnider> or smplayer?
[02:10] <intangir> i havent tried any of those
[02:10] <intangir> plays audio, and video, with a playlist, and its searchable?
[02:10] <crimsun> bsnider: that, too, is being addressed.
[02:10] <intangir> and hotkeyable
[02:10]  * crimsun chuckles
[02:10] <crimsun> all these problems are known and WIP
[02:11] <bsnider> crimsun, not to be a buttinski here, but how do you know?
[02:11] <crimsun> intangir: where does the boot sequence fail?
[02:11] <crimsun> bsnider: I formerly maintained Ubuntu's audio infrastructure.
[02:11] <bsnider> is your first name lennart?
[02:12] <crimsun> bsnider: no, Daniel.
[02:12] <intangir> crimsun: once it should be opening X
[02:12] <crimsun> bsnider: however, you can follow Lennart's work
[02:12] <bsnider> who mantains it now?
[02:12] <crimsun> bsnider: Luke Yelavich
[02:12] <bsnider> oh, that's right
[02:12] <bsnider> i'm using his ppa pulse 9.11 packages right now
[02:13] <bsnider> they are starting to replace all of that "sink" crap with the actual sound card names
[02:13] <bsnider> that's good
[02:13]  * RAOF should really file a bug about those; glitch-free seems to interact badly with hda_intel
[02:13] <crimsun> RAOF: that's our fault; we're not using git.
[02:13] <crimsun> (rather, a git snapshot)
[02:14] <RAOF> crimsun: I thought we'd pulled in the alsa patches needed to make it work?  Am I wrong?
[02:14] <crimsun> namely, we need to use alsa-lib 1.0.18 + 2 git patches and PA git.
[02:14] <crimsun> (that should be 1.0.18rc, obviously)
[02:15] <bsnider> i  use hda intel and pulse 9.11 and it works fine here
[02:15] <bsnider> the roof hasn't crashed in
[02:15] <crimsun> bsnider: "hda intel" doesn't mean a thing.
[02:15] <RAOF> bsnider: You don't get annoying crackles with mini-xruns?
[02:15] <crimsun> bsnider: different HDA codecs use different buffering techniques.
[02:16] <doggymenz> i think Intel HDA means that it conforms to the Intel Azalia spec
[02:16] <bsnider> how would you define a mini-xrun?
[02:16] <doggymenz> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_High_Definition_Audio
[02:16] <intangir> k i gotta go. laters
[02:16] <RAOF> A buffer underrun that's small enough to result in a 'crackle' or 'pop' in the music.
[02:16] <crimsun> doggymenz: no, it means it implements - in some fashion - Azalia.  There is no such thing as "conforming" to it, which is why there are hundreds of quirk entries in the sound driver code.
[02:17] <bsnider> i haven't heard anything like that
[02:17] <doggymenz> oh
[02:17] <bsnider> audio preview doesn't work, but i'm sure that's something else
[02:17] <crimsun> RAOF: (I suppose you may be able to convince Luke to work at alsa-lib git and PA git, but I don't make any claim on his time)
[02:18] <RAOF> crimsun: It's not in Intrepid yet; I should file the bug to either prevent it entering or ensure it enters with newer alsa-lib.
[02:18] <crimsun> RAOF: _some_ of those symptoms can be worked around by tweaking fragment parameters for PA, but that's hardly scalable across audio hardware.
[02:18] <RAOF> And Luke's on holiday at the moment, I think.
[02:19] <doggymenz> x is broken in intrepid? why my xchat and firefox have broken rendering?
[02:19] <RAOF> doggymenz: Not here.
[02:19] <crimsun> he deserves it.  Picking up what he has been doing is hardly a breeze :)
[02:24] <bsnider> i thought the latest alsa was already int he kernel
[02:25] <LSD|Ninja> The drivers in the kernel tend to be slightly behind the ones in the external package. For the most part though, the ones in the kernel are the way to go
[03:29] <ryanpg> anyone know if X.Org 7.4 / X Server 1.5 is going to be in intrepid?
[03:30] <doggymenz> yes
[03:30] <doggymenz> it will
[03:30] <ryanpg> nice, and also DRI2 and KMS?
[03:30] <ryanpg> and therefore GEM too?
[03:30] <doggymenz> no, not DRI2 because it was delayed because Intel switched from TTM to GEM
[03:30] <doggymenz> KMS i dont know what is
[03:30] <ryanpg> kernel mode setting
[03:31] <doggymenz> dont know about that
[03:31] <RAOF> No.  None of those things are in drm master.
[03:32] <ryanpg> bummer
[03:32] <RAOF> But Xorg 7.4 is in, we've got 1.5rc6 at the moment.
[03:32] <doggymenz> http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NjYzNw -- Xorg 7.4 have no DRI2
[03:33] <ryanpg> but xorg 7.4 should have GEM support for intel though yes?
[03:33] <RAOF> No.
[03:33] <ryanpg> ugh
[03:33] <RAOF> GEM doesn't actually have much to do with Xorg, anyway.
[03:34] <RAOF> It's for the drm.
[03:34] <ryanpg> RAOF, it's just a feature of the intel driver correct?
[03:34] <ryanpg> I mean as of now
[03:34] <RAOF> Not really.  It's partial GPU API.
[03:34] <RAOF> s/GPU/GPU memory/
[03:35] <ryanpg> right, it replaces TTM
[03:35] <RAOF> Again, not really.
[03:35] <RAOF> :)
[03:35] <ryanpg> but I thought all the TTM stuff was taken out of the current intel driver?
[03:35] <RAOF> Yes.
[03:35] <RAOF> But that's because their hardware is crap.
[03:35] <RAOF> For cards with real resources (actual onboard VRAM, for example), TTM still makes some sense.
[03:36] <RAOF> radeon is currently having a GEM+TTM makeover, I believe.  And nouveau has some of that, too.
[03:37] <ryanpg> but why did you say GEM won't be supported by 7.4?
[03:37] <RAOF> Because GEM isn't something that Xorg needs to 'support'.
[03:37] <ryanpg> seems like (as I said) it's more of a driver/mesa implementation
[03:37] <RAOF> It's actually lower level than that.
[03:37] <DanaG> wtf... (vboxgtk:16242): libglade-WARNING **: could not find glade file '/home/dana/vboxgtk.glade'
[03:37] <RAOF> Neither X nor mesa really need to care about GEM.
[03:37] <ryanpg> oh ok... semantics... the intel driver and mesa that ships with intrepid will have GEM
[03:38] <ryanpg> lol, well RAOF I'm too dense for this I guess... thanks for trying to get me to understand though
[03:38] <RAOF> No, it won't.  Because that requires git snapshots of various branches.
[03:38] <DanaG> self.base_path = os.getcwd() + '/'
[03:38] <DanaG> Is it just me.... or is that way wrong?
[03:39] <DanaG> Wrong, as in... I sure don't install packages there!
[03:39] <RAOF> Seems pretty unreasonable, yes.
[03:39] <ryanpg> I guess I can always build mesa and intel and a KMS kernel too :)
[03:39] <RAOF> If you run "git clone" against drm, mesa, and xf86-video-intel, you won't get any GEM code.
[03:39] <RAOF> (You additionally need to checkout the various branches)
[03:40] <ryanpg> looks like they merged the gem branch to main a couple weeks ago
[03:40] <ryanpg> http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=xorg/driver/xf86-video-intel.git;a=commit;h=08326827fdb8abecbff20c7b051537dbad433c40
[03:42] <RAOF> Oh, cool.
[03:42] <RAOF> I don't follow intel too closely.  My interest is with nouveau.
[03:43] <doggymenz> i have gf8600, but nvidia sucks, they only can make proprietary device driver, and dont want make open source, so i think they are assholes, and i dont like them
[03:43] <doggymenz> next time, i dont buy nvidia
[03:43] <LSD|Ninja> ...
[03:43] <doggymenz> Intel had open source for GMA chipset, and ATI has open source for Radeon
[03:44] <doggymenz> now even VIA has make some open source, i read on slashdot
[03:44] <doggymenz> only nvidia dont want
[03:44] <LSD|Ninja> ...
[03:44]  * DanaG ♥ ATI.
[03:45] <JontheEchidna> I just hope nvidia releases legacy drivers soon
[03:45] <doggymenz> legacy driver?
[03:45] <JontheEchidna> that work with the latest xorgf
[03:45] <JontheEchidna> *xorg
[03:45] <JontheEchidna> 96.x series and 71.x
[03:45] <doggymenz> my 177 driver work on gf8600 on xorg in
[03:45] <doggymenz> oh, they old
[03:45] <LSD|Ninja> If I were them I'd be taking my time too
[03:46] <doggymenz> yeah, they must update those
[03:46] <doggymenz> yeah, they want take time be lazy to make you buy new
[03:46] <LSD|Ninja> ...
[03:46] <doggymenz> if it was open source, it could be compiled for new xorg long time ago
[03:46] <LSD|Ninja> doggymenz: Dude, there is a world outside your mums basement. Go out into it, please.
[03:46] <doggymenz> ???
[03:46] <doggymenz> why?
[03:46] <doggymenz> you are nvidia fanboy
[03:46] <doggymenz> ?
[03:47] <doggymenz> or maybe you think its good to wait and take time and not update legacy driver? well, i think its being an asshole who is mean to customer
[03:48]  * JontheEchidna just sighs and goes off to bed
[03:50] <ryanpg> and mesa added some level of GEM support to main too
[03:51] <ryanpg> so mesa 7.1 and git driver-intel should = GEM I think...
[03:54] <DanaG> My next laptop will have an ATI Mobility Radeon HD3650 (or Mobility FireGL V5700).
[03:55] <RAOF> ryanpg: But GEM doesn't get you anything interesting.  All you really want is DRI2
[03:58] <doggymenz> what is GEM good for?
[03:58] <doggymenz> what is DRI2 good for?
[03:59] <bsnider> gem manages memory
[03:59] <doggymenz> what is good for lol
[03:59] <RAOF> GEM is good for implementing DRI2.  DRI2 is good for fixing 3d + Composite
[03:59] <doggymenz> but i already have compiz
[03:59] <doggymenz> why should i care about GEM or DRI2?
[03:59] <bsnider> using which driver?
[03:59] <ryanpg> well, dri2 is something I look forward to
[03:59] <ryanpg> GEM helps with EXA performance
[03:59] <doggymenz> i use nvidia-177
[04:00] <doggymenz> what EXA good for?
[04:00] <bsnider> then you already have a much better 3d/opengl than intel or ati will ever have
[04:00] <ryanpg> accelerating fun the stuff
[04:00] <crdlb> nvidia has their own stack for _everything_
[04:00] <doggymenz> oh
[04:00] <crdlb> they even replace the glx module in xserver-xorg-coer
[04:00] <crdlb> core*
[04:00] <doggymenz> too bad they wont share :(
[04:00] <DanaG> I'd rather have open-source, myself.
[04:01] <bsnider> nvidia implements opengl 2.1.2 on linux, nobody else comes close to that
[04:01] <bsnider> even apple doesn't have 2.1
[04:01] <bsnider> apple has 2.0
[04:01] <doggymenz> oh
[04:02] <doggymenz> but now is opengl 3.0 released
[04:02] <doggymenz> ati and intel dont have opengl 2.1?
[04:02] <bsnider> no
[04:02] <bsnider> they have 1.3
[04:02] <doggymenz> oh, wow that sucks
[04:02] <doggymenz> 1.3 is like what? 15 years old?
[04:02] <bsnider> yeah, tell me about it
[04:02] <bsnider> with no memory manager (before gem)
[04:02] <LSD|Ninja> meh, I stopped caring about OpenGL years ago
[04:02] <doggymenz> i dont know what memory manager is good for
[04:02] <bsnider> using your graphics card's ram
[04:02] <DanaG> nvidia also has this habit of breaking my consoles if you VT-switch too much.
[04:04] <bsnider> the only way to get opengl 3.0 right now is to use windows, which is strange because microsoft isn't a member of the chronos group and doesn't know anything about opengl
[04:04] <doggymenz> oh
[04:04] <bsnider> chronos's leading member, apple, doesn't even properly implement it
[04:04] <crdlb> opengl 3.0 doesn't really offer anything over 2.0
[04:05] <crdlb> they cut all the cool stuff
[04:05] <bsnider> the two upcoming updates will
[04:06] <bsnider> but i'm sure tungsten will get around to implementing opengl 3.xx in gallium3d, which will then lead to open source drivers for ati and intel...some time in the 24th century
[04:07] <doggymenz> oh
[04:07] <doggymenz> what gallium3d good for?
[04:07] <doggymenz> what is memory manager good for?
[04:07] <crdlb> gallium is for making mesa a useful platform for a modern 3d driver
[04:08] <doggymenz> oh
[04:09] <bsnider> your graphics card has ram all of its own. there needs to be a memory manager to deal with that ram and use it. currently, there isn't one for linux
[04:09] <doggymenz> tungsten graphics website say "a group of graphics experts with an unrelenting desire to pursue state-of-the-art graphics technologies." but it still only has opengl 1.3 15 year old tech? not so state-of-the-art
[04:09] <bsnider> that's what gem is
[04:09] <doggymenz> ok, so there isnt a memory manager, but i can still use compiz and play portal and hl2 in wine, so what is memory manager good for?
[04:10] <bsnider> your nvidia driver does have a memory manager
[04:10] <bsnider> but it's a proprietary nvidia memory manager
[04:10] <bsnider> it's not available to other graphics cards and can't be included int he linux kernel
[04:11] <doggymenz> oh
[04:11] <doggymenz> seems like nvidia has done some amazing work that via, intel, ati, tungsten and nobody else has done - shame that they wont share it
[04:12] <LSD|Ninja> meh
[04:12] <bsnider> what's a shame is htat these issues have beena round for so long and nobody has fixed them
[04:12] <doggymenz> but lately things are picking up and moving? arent they?
[04:12] <bsnider> yes
[04:13] <crdlb> doggymenz: they probably really can't (code licensing and patents) and it wouldn't really be helpful as it's all nvidia-specific
[04:13] <doggymenz> oh
[04:13] <doggymenz> but obviously tungsten can do it
[04:14] <bsnider> i'll believe it when i see it
[04:14] <bsnider> right now gallium is vaporware
[04:14] <bsnider> i hope they do it, but i'm not holding my breath
[04:17] <crdlb> doggymenz: they're writing fresh code
[04:20] <DanaG> Anybody else unable to type into this thing?  http://bestbuy.shoplocal.com/bestbuy/default.aspx?action=entryflash&adref=header&h=504
[04:22] <doggymenz> i can type zipcode in the flash
[04:24] <LSD|Ninja> not that it's any help in my case but same :P
[04:48] <DanaG> Eeh, I had to copy and paste.
[04:59] <osmosis> monitor power saving doesnt work. help.
[06:59] <RAOF> Ok, that's a pretty screwy behaviour.  When I run emacs, it opens on the desktop _below_ my current one.  Thus neatly making it appear that it doesn't start at all!
[07:25] <RAOF> laughtear: So, what's your problem?
[07:26] <RAOF> (Note that some drivers are broken and beyond our control, care of crappy binary-blobness)
[07:26] <laughtear> RAOF: i was using hardy heron, and upgraded to ibex within it, now my screen resolution is so low, and nvidia drivers stopped working
[07:27] <RAOF> laughtear: What's your card?
[07:27] <laughtear> RAOF: probably i must uninstall the old drivers and re-install them, but i'm not quite sure how to do it..
[07:28] <RAOF> laughtear: Were you using the Ubuntu-supplied nvidia drivers before you upgraded?  And did you upgrade with update-manager?
[07:28] <laughtear> RAOF: i have an nvidia 6600gt with 128mb memory, and a samsung 226bw monitor which has default 1680x1050 resolution.
[07:28] <laughtear> i upgraded with upgrade manager by pressing alt-f2 and typing -d.
[07:29] <laughtear> RAOF: nvidia drivers were the restricted ones probably
[07:29] <RAOF> Hm, OK.  I believe it should have got everything working for you.  If you were using the Ubuntu-supplied drivers, this would be good to report as a bug against upgrade-manager.
[07:29] <RAOF> So, can you pastebin the output of "aptitude search nvidia-glx"?
[07:29] <laughtear> RAOF: sure, gimme a sec
[07:31] <laughtear> RAOF: here you are: http://paste.ubuntu.com/42958/
[07:32] <RAOF> Hm.  That looks OK; you've got the right driver installed.
[07:34] <laughtear> RAOF: so, now...? :)
[07:34] <RAOF> Can you try "sudo aptitude reinstall nvidia-177-kernel-source"?
[07:34] <laughtear> ok, let me try it
[07:36] <laughtear> after i begin the thing you just told, there appeared a colorful terminal (similar) screen asking me something more, about removing some packages etc... which should i choose?
[07:37] <RAOF> What, really?
[07:37] <laughtear> yep
[07:37] <laughtear> :)
[07:37] <RAOF> That surprises me :)
[07:37] <RAOF> Can you pastebin the output?
[07:38] <laughtear> well, i can, but it's turkish (the default language of this system)
[07:38] <laughtear> so i think, it's better for us if i translate the text here?
[07:38] <RAOF> Yeah, that'll do.
[07:39] <RAOF> Alternatively, you could run "LC_ALL=C sudo aptitude reinstall nvidia-177-kernel-source" which should make it run in English.
[07:40] <laughtear> at the top, the blue highlighted part, there are options like; actions, undo, packages, appearence etc.. (these are all in turkish)
[07:41] <RAOF> Ah.
[07:41] <laughtear> below; the unused packages listed: ida openssh-blacklist
[07:41] <RAOF> You appear to have run "aptitude", rather than "sudo aptitude reinstall nvidia-177-kernel-source"
[07:42] <laughtear> below; the packages gonna be kept: i clamav etc...
[07:42] <laughtear> well, i pasted what you wrote buddy..:)
[07:42] <laughtear> and it asked my sudo password...
[07:42] <RAOF> Let's try this then...
[07:42] <laughtear> all rite
[07:42] <laughtear> closing that window?
[07:42] <RAOF> "sudo dpkg-reconfigure nvidia-177-kernel-source"
[07:42] <RAOF> Yeah, close it away.
[07:43] <laughtear> doing that..:)
[07:44] <laughtear> it says that it's done
[07:44] <laughtear> now? reboot?
[07:45] <RAOF> Yeah.  If it didn't fail, that should have everything set.
[07:46] <laughtear> ok, thank you..:) hope to see you again..:)
[07:48] <zerwas> Did someone successfully built Chrome?
[07:48] <RAOF> Yes, but it doesn't actually do anything at all on linux at the moment.  There's no UI.
[07:54] <RAOF> laughtear: Now, if everything is not working fine, you get to pastebin your /var/log/Xorg.0.log
[07:54] <laughtear> okay, something changed about the system (the log off buttons etc..) but resolutions is the same
[07:56] <RAOF> You're about to pastebin /var/log/Xorg.0.log now, right?
[07:56] <laughtear> here you are: http://paste.ubuntu.com/42965/
[07:56] <RAOF> :)
[07:56] <laughtear> RAOF
[07:56] <laughtear> :)
[07:57] <RAOF> Ok.  Can you pastebin /etc/X11/xorg.conf ?
[07:57] <laughtear> okay, a sec
[07:58] <laughtear> RAOF: here sir...:) : http://paste.ubuntu.com/42967/
[07:59] <RAOF> That's fairly messed up.  How did you generate that?
[08:00] <RAOF> For future reference: it's explicitly asking for a resolution of 640x480, making sure that the screen size can never get above that resolution, and asking for the vesa driver :)
[08:01] <RAOF> laughtear: In particular, I'd suggest "sudo mv /etc/X11/xorg.conf ~/xorg.conf.backup" to move your old xorg.conf away, followed by "sudo nvidia-xconfig" to generate a new (hopefully) working one.
[08:02] <laughtear> well, we just bought a tv, has an vga input, tried to use it to watch movies, as trying i also installed the nvidia x-server settings, etc etc...
[08:03] <laughtear> RAOF: probably the backed up one is corrupted too. can't we built a new one for intrepid ibex, just asking..:S
[08:03] <RAOF> In which case I'd suggest running "sudo nvidia-xconfig --twinview", to set up dual-head :)
[08:03] <RAOF> laughtear: In particular, I'd suggest "sudo mv /etc/X11/xorg.conf ~/xorg.conf.backup" to move your old xorg.conf away, followed by "sudo nvidia-xconfig" to generate a new (hopefully) working one. <---------- This will create a new xorg.conf :)
[08:03] <laughtear> RAOF: i gave up about that twin view subject, unfortunately i still use windows for movies..:(
[08:03] <laughtear> okay....:)
[08:04] <laughtear> done, but wonder if this is normal or not: WARNING: Unable to locate/open X configuration file. New X configuration file written to '/etc/X11/xorg.conf'
[08:05] <laughtear> ...before reboot..:)
[08:05] <RAOF> That's just fine.
[08:05] <RAOF> Hm.
[08:06] <laughtear> ok, rebooting...
[08:06] <RAOF> I'd edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf before rebooting; make sure there isn't a line containing 'rgb.txt'
[08:06] <laughtear> ok, let me check
[08:07] <laughtear> i think there is not (could not find).
[08:08] <RAOF> Good.  You should be good to go, then.
[08:08] <laughtear> okay
[08:15] <Jordan_U> Why is the Heron Desktop background named "warty-final-ubuntu" ?
[08:15] <RAOF> Jordan_U: Hysterical rasins
[08:18] <crdlb> the artists were on strike, so they recycled the image from warty
[08:21] <Jordan_U> crdlb: Didn't Warty have the "controversial" backgrounds :)
[08:25] <verwilst> tomorrow is alpha5 time
[08:25] <laughtear> RAOF: i'm back with a better resolution: 800X600...:S:), after starting by choosing recovery and repair x-server configuration. then i uninstalled the nvidia x-server settings program... and i am here...:)
[08:25]  * verwilst will download to take a first look
[08:26] <verwilst> that brownish theme ive seen in a screenshot, is that the default in intrepid?
[08:26] <laughtear> RAOF: i think i must uninstall (clean up whatever installed before) all nvidia drivers and install the latest ones
[08:28] <laughtear> RAOF: there?..
[09:33] <balachmar> Hi, any one else experiencing a black screen when trying to boot into the latest kernel?
[09:35] <Hobbsee> yes
[09:39] <balachmar> Am I right in thinking it is this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/usplash/+bug/259007 ?
[09:42] <balachmar> And should I report that with the second kernel I get no network connection in my VM? It seems to be the same as: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/259133
[09:48] <balachmar> However just removing splash from the latest kernel line, doesn't enable me to log into gnome. The screen starts flashing...
[09:48] <Hobbsee> balachmar: fairly sure that's an old bug.
[09:49] <Hobbsee> weird.
[09:50] <balachmar> Hobbsee maybe that is because I am in a VM?
[09:50] <Hobbsee> balachmar: could well be
[09:50] <Hobbsee> (the first bug being old, that is)
[09:51] <balachmar> yeah, the black screen is old. I know
[09:53] <balachmar> hmmm, weird now it does go flashing anymore just stays black even witout the splash boot option...
[09:55] <balachmar> no, that was my bad... I didn't remove the splash option. (used escape instead of return)
[09:55] <balachmar> I have a screenshot of the error now..
[09:59] <balachmar> However there is no error... See https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/usplash/+bug/259007 for my findings.
[11:37] <theholyduck> how "stable" is 8.10?
[11:37] <theholyduck> compared to normal debian sid?
[11:37] <theholyduck> since i need a up to date live cd install. that "Has" to be debian or a debian derative
[11:38] <theholyduck> and ubuntu 8.10 is the only thing that seems to support my chipset :P
[11:39] <theholyduck> the question would be, is it stable enough for me to get wifi networking to work on it and install debian sid with it?
[11:39] <Hobbsee> it might work.  it might not.  at the moment, mine's rather tempramental about booting.
[11:40] <theholyduck> i dont need it to work for more than half an hour :P
[11:40] <theholyduck> the question is. WILL it?
[11:41] <Ng> the answer is. try it :)
[11:41] <theholyduck> yeah i guess i have to :P
[11:42] <theholyduck> daily live would be the best choice right?
[11:43] <Ng> most likely, alpha4 is a bit old now
[11:43] <Ng> unless you fancy waiting for alpha5
[11:43] <theholyduck> naw
[11:43] <theholyduck> id rather have a working sid system
[11:43] <theholyduck> i COULD try getting a daily build of the sid installer
[11:43] <theholyduck> it MIGHT support my networking hardware
[11:44] <theholyduck> well since i use a usb pen for the install. it doesnt really matter i guess
[12:21] <Exilant> is adept supposed to work right now, or is that still unsolved?
[12:21] <JontheEchidna> adept should work in Intrepid with the latest updates
[12:22] <JontheEchidna> and it works for me :P
[12:22] <Exilant> oh cool
[12:23] <JontheEchidna> Earlier there still was the KDE3 version of adept which was missing KDE3 console
[12:23] <JontheEchidna> and crashed on startup
[12:23] <gnomefreak> it removes everything adept* if you upgrade/install adept
[12:23] <JontheEchidna> yes, all the binaries are in one package now
[12:23] <JontheEchidna> actually, binary
[12:23] <gnomefreak> ah
[12:24] <JontheEchidna> it takes command line args to determine whether it goes in updater, installer, or manager mode
[12:24] <JontheEchidna> adept notifier was replaced by update-notifier-kde
[12:24] <JontheEchidna> adept batch was replaced by install-package
[12:25] <Exilant> ok, thanks
[12:25] <Exilant> it indeed works
[12:25] <Exilant> although not from the start menu
[12:29] <Exilant> and i can't seem to find linux-image with it *confused*
[13:32] <Exilant> What kind of index does that use, adeptt doesn't show digikam-kde4 if i search for it. xapian does and apt-cache search does.
[13:33] <Exilant> *if i search for digikam
[14:05] <schmidtm__> clamav-getfiles (2.0-4) has a dependy on libdebian-package-make-perl (>0.3) which is not in the repos at all
[14:15] <vistakiller> hello world i begin upgrade my system kubuntu hardy to ibex
[14:16] <vistakiller> i use my system from 7.04 and this is my third upgrade :D
[14:28] <electro> I've been getting an error recently since I installed KDE4.  "Error maximum number of clients in use".  Its not tied to Xlib as far as I can tell, but it refuses to open any new X apps until X is restarted.  Has anyone else run into this issue?  Thanks!
[14:50] <Adri2000> hmm, isn't gksu update-manager -d in hardy supposed to propose a dist-upgrade to intrepid?
[14:52] <Adri2000> looks like using -c as well helped
[14:54] <Adri2000> or maybe it's because I forgot the quotes around the command :)
[15:54] <tomahasamoot> my apt database has a lock on it from a crashed program.  How do I remove the lock?
[15:57] <Oli``> Why do all the CPU-usage-reporting tools fail spectacularly in Intrepid? htop, conky and gnome-system-monitor all occasionally report that I'm using anywhere between 200% and 6000% of my CPU =\
[16:46] <DanielRM> Was anyone having segfaults with Python apps until today's updates?
[17:00] <charliecb> hi all
[17:00] <charliecb> Does anybody know why openoffice 3.0 is not available in ubuntu 8.10 ?
[17:03] <`Matir> charliecb, probably because it has not been released yet
[17:13] <Reed_Solomon> yo,  I got kubuntu intrepid working for the most part (including compiz and wifi) with my new SL400 thinkpad
[17:14] <Reed_Solomon> although im using wicd instead of the kde wireless thing as that stopped working
[17:18] <x1250> tomahasamoot, just delete it with sudo rm. The path should be part of the output on your screen
[17:22] <Reed_Solomon> anyways, the new X auto-configuration thing is a bit confusing to me, anyone know how under the new regime to make it so that the middle thinkpad button can be used to scroll?
[17:50] <Adri2000> I find my mouse (actually touchpad) to be pretty slow, altough I configured correctly System > Preferences > Mouse, any idea?
[17:51] <Adri2000> also, I can't scroll anymore using the touchpad :/
[17:56] <void^> synaptics driver not loaded/working
[17:56] <Cycom> can someone pastebin a copy of their ~/.local/share/applications/alacarte-made.directory?   I'm having an error where it says mine doesn't exit when I try to use alacarte.  I can't edit the properties on a few items in alacarte.
[17:56] <Cycom> exist*
[17:59] <DanielRM> Cycom: one pastebin coming up.
[17:59] <Cycom> DanielRM: thanks man.
[18:00] <Cycom> it's just bizzare.  I can't find any documentation on what this file is or what it does...
[18:00] <DanielRM> Hmmm.
[18:00] <Cycom> and alacarte doesn't install it
[18:00] <DanielRM> I don't have an alacarte-made.directory
[18:00] <DanielRM> I have an alacarte-made.desktop, though.
[18:00] <Cycom> what the heck?
[18:01] <Cycom> DanielRM: what version of alacarte do you have installed?
[18:01] <DanielRM> 0.11.5-1ubuntu1
[18:01] <DanielRM> I think I know what the problem is.
[18:01] <Cycom> same version as me...
[18:01] <DanielRM> Have you made any custom folders in the menu using alacarte?
[18:02] <DanielRM> The 'New Menu' option, I suppose it would be.
[18:02] <Cycom> not using alacarte, but I have installed some packages that added menu items
[18:02] <Cycom> the ubuntu studio packages
[18:02] <DanielRM> They made a new directory?
[18:02] <Cycom> it killed the icons for a few menu items and I was trying to restore them
[18:02] <DanielRM> Or made a hidden one appear?
[18:03] <Cycom> it made new ones, I think
[18:03] <Cycom> but these are old directories that are having the problem...
[18:03] <Cycom> like accessories has no icon except for a regular folder
[18:04] <DanielRM> Well, my thought was that, since my alacarte-made.desktop contains the custom menu items I've added (latest OpenArena etc.), alacarte-made.directory would contain custom directories.
[18:04] <Cycom> Accessories, Games, Internet, and Multimedia all lost their icons.
[18:04] <Cycom> but multimedia is the only one with new items
[18:05] <DanielRM> sudo aptitude purge alacarte, perhaps?
[18:05] <DanielRM> That should purge the config files too.
[18:05] <Cycom> been there, done that :/
[18:05] <DanielRM> Hmmm.
[18:06] <Cycom> I did a remove all through synaptic actually. let me try a real purge
[18:08] <Cycom> nope. same problem after the purge
[18:13] <DanielRM> I have no idea what the problem is. :S
[18:13] <DanielRM> Does the file exist?
[18:16] <Cycom> I may have figured it out.  Can you give me an ls of /usr/share/desktop-directories/ ?
[18:17] <DanielRM> There isn't an alacarte-made.directory in there, if that's what you're hoping for.
[18:17] <Cycom> no, not at all
[18:17] <DanielRM> Wait a moment, then.
[18:17] <DanielRM> I'll pastebin it.
[18:17] <Cycom> is there an Accessories.directory in there?
[18:17] <Cycom> that's the real key
[18:17] <DanielRM> No.
[18:18] <Cycom> hrm.
[18:18] <Cycom> awright, pastebin it anyhow I suppose
[18:22] <DanielRM> Cycom: http://pastebin.ubuntu-uk.org/38404
[18:22] <Cycom> DanielRM: ugh. Just figured something out.  is there alacarte-made.directory in ~/.local/share/desktop-directories ?
[18:23] <AndyCR> Well, I tried downloading the x86 livecd ISO image and burning it, but the installation process failed. I then re-burned it, but this time it wouldn't even boot completely. I then re-downloaded it and re-burned it twice, same thing both times. I've been using the same burner and media for other versions and it's worked fine. Anyone know what's wrong?
[18:23] <AndyCR> (The Alpha 4 release)
[18:23] <AndyCR> Is anyone having luck with the Alpha 4 release ISO?
[18:24] <AndyCR> I'm beginning to wonder whether there's an issue with it
[18:24] <AndyCR> For now I'm trying to update from 8.04 using update manager, but I'm not sure whether that will be "pure" enough
[18:25] <AndyCR> (My wireless drivers are rather bad in 8.04, and they seemed to work perfectly the time I managed to get 8.10 to boot off the livecd, so I'm hoping it'll install the new drivers when it upgrades)
[18:25] <DanielRM> Cycom: no.
[18:25] <Cycom> DanielRM: bugger. I hate to be a pain, but can you pastebin an ls of that too?
[18:25] <DanielRM> AndyCR: generally it's advised to install rather than upgrade.
[18:25] <DanielRM> Cycom: sure. And it's not being a pain at all. :)
[18:26] <DanielRM> Cycom: I've had bad experiences with applications menus recently.
[18:26] <DanielRM> Cycom: although that was, admittedly, a different environment.
[18:26] <AndyCR> DanielRM: Thanks. Any idea why the install would fail so many times? I've never had luck -this- bad.
[18:26] <AndyCR> I could try burning the ISO on this machine instead, perhaps my burner is dying
[18:27] <Cycom> AndyCR: haven't you verified the disc?
[18:27] <AndyCR> Cycom: Well, actually, the disc verification utility only worked on one of the discs I burned. I suppose that's a bad sign. :)
[18:27] <Cycom> yeah
[18:27] <AndyCR> The time it did work, it said the disc was curropt.
[18:28] <IdleOne> lmao AndyCR that really is not working but atleast you found it it was not working
[18:29] <DanielRM> Cycom: http://pastebin.ubuntu-uk.org/38413
[18:30] <AndyCR> In the process of installing 8.10 through update-manager now
[18:30] <AndyCR> Hopefully it works
[18:30] <DanielRM> AndyCR: that sounds like it's dying, yes.
[18:30] <AndyCR> If not, I suppose I'll burn it on the laptop
[18:30] <AndyCR> I couldn't before because the failed 8.10 install took out the MBR so I couldn't boot into an OS to burn it from :P
[18:30] <AndyCR> Now that I installed 8.04 I can, though/
[18:31] <Cycom> DanielRM: thanks.  It's taking a REALLY long time to load for some reason, but so did the last one.
[18:31] <DanielRM> Cycom: yeah, it seems the ubuntu-uk site is being hit.
[18:32] <DanielRM> Cycom: at least, the pastebin part. I assume it's on a different server because the ircstats is quick to load.
[18:33] <Cycom> hrm.
[18:35] <AndyCR> I'm only upgrading because I seem to have the only Intel IPW3945 wifi card that Ubuntu doesn't like in the entire world
[18:36] <AndyCR> It constantly disconnects, and apparently nobody else has the problem, even with the same laptop
[18:36] <AndyCR> It works perfectly under Windows, though, so I'm not sure what to think - different hardware revision, perhaps
[18:40] <LSD|Ninja> The drivers for that are in a state of flux right now I believe, not sure when it'll be sorted out
[18:43] <AndyCR> I remember hearing that there was IPW3945 and IWL3945, and I tried both in 7.10. IWL worked better most of the time, but they both had major issues
[18:43] <AndyCR> Hopefully they've been changed somehow in 8.10
[18:45] <LSD|Ninja> I've only messed with a 3945 a couple of times under Ubuntu. Was impressed that it worked OOB but never really did much with it. I was waiting for the Lenovo recovery discs to arrive so I could put XP back on it for my sister
[18:46] <AndyCR> IPW seemed to work only about half the time, but the half it did it disconnected constantly
[18:46] <AndyCR> It suspended well, though
[18:47] <AndyCR> IWL worked pretty well, and didn't disconnect as long as I pinged something at regular intervals (no idea why... Power management?), but was broken permanently until reboot if I suspended
[18:48] <AndyCR> I'm sure using WPA has something to do with it, since it works fine on normal networks
[18:48] <LSD|Ninja> This was on a WPA network but it was also under Hardy
[18:53] <AndyCR> I suppose I should be thankful suspend even threatens to work
[18:53] <AndyCR> Especially considering it has an nvidia card
[19:15] <Teisei> Shutdown/Restart options working, anyone ?
[19:15] <Teisei> In Intrepid
[19:16] <Teisei> I still have no luck with those buttons. It's always either "sudo reboot" or "sudo poweroff" in terminal :/
[19:22] <tsuther> I'm already running kde4.1.1 in Hardy Heron - anyone have advice on upgrading to Intrepid a bit early?
[19:24] <tsuther> I'm willing to test, file bugfixes, etc, but I have no real programming skills
[19:30] <jtechidna> tsuther: sudo do-release-upgrade -m desktop
[19:31] <jtechidna> beware that the 96.x and 71.x propritetary drivers for older nvidia cards aren't compatible with the latest xorg
[19:35] <tsuther> so what will happen to my existing .kde4 settings?
[19:35] <tsuther> will I have two kde4 sessions?  one in .kde and one int .kde4?
[19:35] <tsuther> or does it migrate settings?
[19:36] <tsuther> jtechidna: ^^^
[19:36] <jtechidna> yes
[19:36] <jtechidna> you would have 2 sessions
[19:36] <jtechidna> well, config folders
[19:36] <jtechidna> you could just delete the .kde
[19:36] <tsuther> so it will kinda leave my existing kde 4.1.1 alone?
[19:36] <jtechidna> and rename .kde4 to .kde
[19:36] <jtechidna> your current kde 4.1.1 config will be safe
[19:37] <tsuther> no know issues with my Mobility Radeon X1300?
[19:37] <tsuther> *known
[19:40]  * jtechidna doesn't know any
[19:41] <tsuther> jtechidna: "sudo do-release-upgrade -m desktop" gets me "No new release found"
[19:42] <jtechidna> maybe you need to throw in a -d in the mix
[19:42] <jtechidna> -dm
[19:42] <tsuther> ah yes
[19:42] <tsuther> thanks!
[19:42] <jtechidna> :)
[19:42] <noodlesgc> does Intrepid use DRI2?
[20:18] <AndyCR> Well, the upgrade worked fine, and the wifi seems to work fine
[20:19] <AndyCR> Thanks for the help
[20:44] <noodlesgc> isn't Alpha 5 coming out tomorrow?
[21:08] <siegie> noodlesgc: yes
[21:24] <x1250> some flash pages blinks in here, is this a known issue?
[21:32] <xanax`> hello
[21:33] <xanax`> is the alpha 4 a bit useable ? Everytime I start my system, i get kernel errors at boot process
[21:34] <bsnider> i think some people were having boot problems with the new kernel
[21:35] <bsnider> it is supposed to be fixed in a few days
[21:35] <bsnider> when they release 2.6.27-3
[21:35] <xanax`> ok
[21:35] <Myrtti> I just hate flash
[21:36] <bsnider> flash hates you too
[21:36] <Myrtti> either I crash my browser with adobe flash and nspluginwrapper or with swfdec and buggy gtk.
[21:36] <bsnider> how would you expect it to feel? you come out and say you hate it. of course it will reciprocate
[21:38] <bsnider> Myrtti, you and everyone else
[21:39] <bsnider> i'm sure they're working on it
[21:40] <Myrtti> I certainly do hope so - I'm getting so tired with epiphany crashing all the time
[21:41] <bsnider> oh, it crashes epiphany? i was talking about fireforks
[21:41] <bsnider> are you using the webkit engine or gecko?
[21:43] <Myrtti> gecko - I tried to use webkit but it's unusable for me
[21:44] <Myrtti> and since it's gecko, I believe the error exists on both firefox and epiphany
[21:44] <bsnider> what do you mean unusable?
[21:45] <Myrtti> the website that I have to enter on daily basis is using selfsigned SSL certificate and .htaccess authentication - even if I can bypass the ssl certificate check, apparently gtk can't handle the .htaccess thing
[21:45] <bsnider> but for regular web browsing, it's ok?
[21:45] <Myrtti> yes
[21:46] <crdlb> webkit-gtk still doesn't have persistent cookie support
[21:46] <bsnider> well the obvious question is why not use hardy
[21:46] <crdlb> and very limited tab support (no middle-clicking, etc)
[21:46] <Myrtti> yup - and no adblock either
[21:46] <Myrtti> so I'm not really even considering webkit
[21:48] <bsnider> you coulod try opera
[21:51] <Myrtti> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox-3.0/+bug/250769
[21:56] <Myrtti> so basically it's fixed upstream
[21:57] <bsnider> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=906897
[21:59] <Myrtti> yup - that's if you're using flashplugin-nonfree and nspluginwrapper
[21:59] <Myrtti> but I get basically the same with swfdec - in a system that has never even had nspluginwrapper installed
[22:00] <Myrtti> it just might be that both are same issues actually
[22:07] <bsnider> probably
[22:08] <bsnider> but everybody's got it
[22:09] <vistakiller> hi i just upgrade my system kubuntu hardy to ibex
[22:10] <vistakiller> i have problem with usb mouse and keyboard in 27 kernel
[22:10] <xanax`> and your system is broken ?
[22:10] <vistakiller> the problem is not exist in the older system
[22:10] <vistakiller> no
[22:10] <vistakiller> my system never break
[22:10] <vistakiller> i have thsi system from three upgrades :D
[22:11] <bsnider> lots of people are having issues with the mouse & keyboard
[22:11] <electro> Ibex has been a more complicated beta than feisty / hardy
[22:11] <electro> imo
[22:11] <bsnider> it isn't at beta
[22:11] <bsnider> it's alpha
[22:11] <electro> well allpha
[22:11] <electro> i never had as many problems with the hardy alpha
[22:12] <bsnider> the mouse/keyboard stuff was moved out of xorg.conf
[22:16] <vistakiller> fonts in default looks very small
[22:16] <vistakiller> i just put them in kubuntu to 96 DPI and now is ok
[22:20] <Cutter> hi, wouldn't it be nice to have a Control Panel rather than menu items?
[22:20] <bsnider> there is one
[22:20] <bsnider> if yo want
[22:21] <Cutter> in version 8.04?
[22:21] <bsnider> yes
[22:21] <Cutter> ah you mean it has to be installed
[22:21] <bsnider> sure it does
[22:22] <Cutter> you mean it's not installed by default?
[22:22] <bsnider> yes
[22:22] <bsnider> that is what i mean
[22:22] <Cutter> ok
[22:22] <bsnider> gnome-control-center
[22:23] <bsnider> install it
[22:23] <Cutter> I meant it would be nice to have it by default
[22:23] <bsnider> very small diffrernce
[22:23] <Cutter> I meant it as a suggestion for improvement, not for my personal convenience
[22:24] <Cutter> small difference as long as you know about it, (and care to search for it)
[22:25] <Cutter> btw will it be possible to create and rearrange menu items as easily as in Windows?
[22:26] <bsnider> if you don't want to do any of that work yourself i have the perfect os for you: macosx
[22:27] <Cutter> MacOS X isn't free, MacOS X isn't compatible with the hardware I am using
[22:28] <bsnider> well, you also have to want to sell your soul to apple
[22:29] <pwnguin> Cutter: are you familiar with how the menu works currently?
[22:29] <Cutter> no, I didn't use ubuntu for a while
[22:30] <Cutter> but last time I tried to add items to the "Places" menu, I failed
[22:30] <pwnguin> there's a menu editor that can add, remove and "hide" stuff. its not direct interaction with the UI itself, but it's at least ther
[22:30] <pwnguin> ah
[22:31] <pwnguin> places is a bit special =(
[22:31] <pwnguin> if you bring up nautilus, you can add new entries
[22:32] <Cutter> then I will think about filing a brainstorm request about that
[22:32] <Cutter> ... or vote for it
[22:33] <pwnguin> brainstorm is overrate
[22:33] <pwnguin> d
[22:33] <Cutter> the "Places" items are somewhere on the HDD as shortcuts?
[22:33] <pwnguin> yes
[22:33] <Cutter> ok
[22:34] <Cutter> why is brainstorm overrated?
[22:34] <pwnguin> you can just drag and drop folders into the places sidebar in nautilus, and they'll show up everywhere that reads Places
[22:34] <pwnguin> brainstorm is overrated because Ubuntu is mainly a volunteer effort
[22:34] <pwnguin> if you ask a bunch of people for ideas, and then totally ignore it
[22:35] <pwnguin> that's a recipe for anger
[22:35] <Cutter> developers don't always ignore the ideas
[22:35] <pwnguin> you have to have some way of identifying high value items and get them done
[22:35] <Cutter> I've seen a few being implemented
[22:36] <pwnguin> generally, most of what i've seen are "we're already doing that"
[22:36] <pwnguin> which is nice to let people know i guess, but it's not like people sit down and think, "what can i spend the next six months doing for someone else for free?"
[22:37] <pwnguin> the traditional carrots are money and scratching itches
[22:38] <Cutter> that's quite a pessimistic view
[22:38] <pwnguin> for example, i try to make tabletPCs work on Ubuntu (when mine isn't broke)
[22:38] <pwnguin> no, its realistic
[22:38] <pwnguin> pessmistic would be "nobody will ever do this"
[22:38] <bsnider> don't use tabletpcs
[22:39] <bsnider> use hardware that is known to work
[22:39] <pwnguin> wtf
[22:39] <pwnguin> now there's a pessimist
[22:39] <pwnguin> realistic is "people will only fix what they want fixed"
[22:39] <Cutter> "realistic" would be realizing that most of the ideas there take a while to satisfy
[22:40] <Cutter> for example "Support for more printers"
[22:40] <pwnguin> url?
[22:40] <Cutter> or Support for Tablet PCs
[22:40] <pwnguin> look man, my tabletPC normally works with ubuntu
[22:40] <pwnguin> right now my power cord is broke
[22:41] <pwnguin> i'm a member of the toshiba tablet team
[22:41] <pwnguin> i didnt need to look at brainstorm to see what other people want
[22:42] <bsnider> what operating system do tabletpcs normally use?
[22:42] <pwnguin> tabletPC is a microsoft initiative, but theres nothing fancy about them
[22:43] <bsnider> why are they useful?
[22:43] <pwnguin> why the twenty questions?
[22:43] <pwnguin> i like being able to draw
[22:43] <pwnguin> i like being able to write
[22:43] <bsnider> i'm curious
[22:44] <pwnguin> i like having less of a "wall" between me and other people when im using my laptop
[22:44] <bsnider> well, what i mean is why would someone use a tabletpc instead of a desktop?
[22:45] <pwnguin> thats the wrong question to ask
[22:45] <pwnguin> all the reasons a laptop might be used instead of a desktop also apply
[22:46] <bsnider> so why would someone use a tabletpc instead of a laptop?
[22:47] <pwnguin> i feel like you're trying to tell me im solving the wrong problem
[22:47] <bsnider> if you were trying to sell me a tabletpc, how would you do it?
[22:47] <pwnguin> with a website?
[22:47] <bsnider> ok, say it was in person
[22:47] <bsnider> i mean i don't know what a tabletpc is anyway
[22:48] <pwnguin> why do i need to convince you of the merits?
[22:48] <pwnguin> we can pretend, but im not selling you hardware
[22:48] <bsnider> you don't. i'm not coercing you. i'm simply asking a question
[22:49] <pwnguin> a tabletPC is basically a touchscreen device
[22:49] <pwnguin> usually a laptop with a flip rotate screen
[22:49] <bsnider> i see
[22:50] <bsnider> i suppose i can see how that would be useful
[22:50] <pwnguin> well im glad ive convinced you that using things is okay
[22:51] <bsnider> i never said it wasn't ok
[22:52] <bsnider> i said if it doesn't work don't use it
[22:52] <pwnguin> which is stupid
[22:52] <pwnguin> if it doesn't work, fix it!
[22:53] <bsnider> are you syaing you've never built a system or bought hardware specifically because it works on linux?
[22:53] <pwnguin> just about
[22:53] <pwnguin> the only thing i bothered looking up was wifi
[22:54] <pwnguin> and thankfully, someone else out there didn't sit there in resignation when linux didn't support wifi
[22:54] <bsnider> interesting
[22:54] <pwnguin> they got the hardware, and made it work anyways (madwifi)
[22:55] <bsnider> atheros now pays them to develop those drivers
[22:55] <pwnguin> yep
[22:55] <bsnider> and intel does too
[22:55] <pwnguin> and when someone didnt like the HAL
[22:55] <pwnguin> they wrote their own native firmware
[22:55] <bsnider> great
[22:55] <bsnider> well, if the average person can't do that
[22:55] <bsnider> hten buy hardware that actually works
[22:56] <pwnguin> well i guess im not average
[22:56] <bsnider> maybe not
[22:56] <pwnguin> and i wish people would stop assuming i was
[22:56] <pwnguin> "don't buy that" isn't gonna solve bug #1
[22:56] <bsnider> yes it will
[22:57] <bsnider> invest your money in companies like intel that support the kernel
[22:57] <pwnguin> what if you dont have money, just an old computer?
[22:57] <bsnider> deprive companies like via that have never heard of linux of money
[22:57] <pwnguin> via hired welte
[22:58] <bsnider> putting your money into companies htat care about gnu/linux is all most people need to do
[22:58] <pwnguin> its a new world, where you can apparently sue your way into a job ;)
[22:58] <bsnider> well, via's made changes recently
[22:59] <bsnider> their new driver was released without any community involvement or testing
[23:00] <pwnguin> why should the general population spend more money than they otherwise would, for nothing that will benefit them directly?
[23:00] <bsnider> it does benefit them
[23:00] <bsnider> it funds linux
[23:00] <pwnguin> why's that helpful?
[23:00] <pwnguin> to them
[23:01] <pwnguin> why not fund BSD, or MINIX, or apple?
[23:01] <bsnider> and it isn't more money, it's simply researching who's supporting the kernel and who isn't before you buy
[23:01] <pwnguin> (or microsoft)
[23:01] <bsnider> they can do that
[23:01] <bsnider> i'm talking about people who want to use lniux
[23:01] <pwnguin> then your definition of average person is hilariously off the mark
[23:03] <bsnider> why, because the average person doesn't do research?
[23:03] <bsnider> they do
[23:03] <pwnguin> the average person doesn't "want to use linux"
[23:04] <pwnguin> at best, they want to send their daughter an email, or print a lot of pictures, or other goals than "run linux on a computer"
[23:05] <pwnguin> if linux can help, them, and I think it often can, great
[23:05] <bsnider> my point is that people who want to use linux and are average people ie. people who can't write drivers and firmware from scratch, can do their part by giving their money to companies like intel that have heave support for gnu/linux
[23:07] <pwnguin> what about companies that do support open source, but decide to rewrite the graphics engine to suit their own needs better than a competitor who also supports open source?
[23:08] <bsnider> did they make a better graphics engine?
[23:09] <pwnguin> its still unclear, but probably not a substianal benefit relative to the costs incurred time wise
[23:10] <bsnider> well, if that's the case then they screwed up
[23:10] <bsnider> i'd use whichever one is best
[23:10] <pwnguin> what if one was more expensive?
[23:10] <bsnider> like now. i use nvidia's proprietary driver
[23:10] <pwnguin> psh
[23:10] <bsnider> the expense of it is irrelevant
[23:11] <pwnguin> if money's no object, i know a few developers who could use living and travel expenses covered
[23:12] <pwnguin> anyways, this is massively off topic
[23:13] <pwnguin> i find my money is better spent fixing my own problems than someone elses
[23:14] <pwnguin> which is why i contribute testing results to nouveau
[23:14] <pwnguin> file and triage wacom bugs
[23:16] <pwnguin> and run development versions of ubuntu on my tablet
[23:18] <bsnider> only problem i have with that is the nouveau thing
[23:23] <pwnguin> what's wrong with nouveau?
[23:23] <bsnider> why not submit bugs on nvidia's driver?
[23:24] <pwnguin> have you ever done that?
[23:24] <bsnider> yes
[23:24] <pwnguin> and it was fixed?
[23:24] <bsnider> it's done through their forums using a script
[23:25] <bsnider> i suppose they're working on it, but you can go to their linux forum and see bugs that were fixed that way
[23:25] <pwnguin> a forum makes a poor bug tracker =(
[23:25] <pwnguin> as does an email address
[23:25] <pwnguin> but if it works for you
[23:25] <bsnider> i'm not arguing that point
[23:25] <pwnguin> we have a pile of bugs you could pick a few from and try to duplicate and report to nvidia
[23:28] <bsnider> the nouveau driver isn't ever going to be a viable alternative to the nvidia driver
[23:28] <pwnguin> its already a 90 percent viable alternative to nv
[23:28] <bsnider> hahaha
[23:28] <bsnider> to nv
[23:28] <bsnider> i'm not talking about nv
[23:28] <pwnguin> i know you werent
[23:28] <bsnider> yeah, i thought so
[23:29] <pwnguin> the other 10 percent is waiting for intel to stabilize gem/dri
[23:29] <bsnider> well if intel had used ttm, there wouldn't be a wait would there?
[23:29] <pwnguin> well, RAOF can explain why nouveau will give everyone free candy
[23:30] <Jordan_U> OK, this is really odd. When I first boot I see really bad banding in gradients ( especially the heron background image ) as if I am not getting full 24 bit color, but when I take a screenshot ( and display it on another computer ) the banding is not visible, and just to make things even stranger I just found that the banding goes away if I suspend then resume
[23:30] <RAOF> Jordan_U: That's because you've got an 18bit panel.
[23:30] <RAOF> Strange that it goes away after suspend; given that you're suspending, you're obviously using the nvidia driver?
[23:31] <Jordan_U> RAOF: Sorry, what does that mean?
[23:31] <pwnguin> bsnider: and for some purposes, the nvidia driver also sucks. rotate is unaccellerated
[23:31] <Jordan_U> RAOF: Nope, radeon
[23:31] <bsnider> i haven't tried rotate
[23:31] <RAOF> Jordan_U: Oh, cool.  That means you get to file a bug!
[23:31] <pwnguin> bsnider: both my laptop and desktop can rotate
[23:31] <pwnguin> and nvidia sucks at it
[23:32] <RAOF> Jordan_U: Basically, your LCD (in a laptop?) says it supports 8bits per channel, but only supports 6bits per channel.  This is very common.
[23:32] <Jordan_U> RAOF: Can you please tell me what an 18 but "panel" means so I can better file my report?
[23:32] <bsnider> i don't have a monitor that can take advantage of that. but i wish i did
[23:32] <RAOF> Jordan_U: So the driver needs to dither gradients to make them look less like arse.
[23:33] <pwnguin> Jordan_U: it means instead of 256 shades of blue, your monitor supports 64
[23:33] <pwnguin> and so on
[23:33] <bsnider> wow, that sucks
[23:33] <Jordan_U> RAOF: Yes it's a laptop ( Macbook Pro )
[23:33] <crdlb> ouch
[23:33] <Jordan_U> RAOF: Is this common in laptops?
[23:34] <crdlb> I'm pretty sure the macbook pros were supposed to have 24-bit displays
[23:34] <RAOF> Jordan_U: It'll be a 18bit panel.  But I thought macs were one of the (very) few laptops that had proper 24bit panels?
[23:34] <crdlb> and a lot of pro users are really upset
[23:34] <bsnider> RAOF, maybe if he used the ati driver instead
[23:34] <pwnguin> RAOF: does dmidecode report this stuff correctly?
[23:34] <crdlb> because they're really 18
[23:34] <pwnguin> crdlb: source?
[23:35] <Jordan_U> RAOF: How could I check what it really supports / what is really happening?
[23:35] <bsnider> he's right. i read that
[23:35] <RAOF> pwnguin: I forget.  The monitors really do report that they're 18bit (generally), because nouveau can detect & turn on dithering.
[23:35] <crdlb> http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/05/18/apple_hit_with_class_action_suit_over_macbook_macbook_pro_displays.html
[23:36] <pwnguin> well then, i take back what ive said about apple knowing how to put together quality hardware
[23:37] <bsnider> that was on slashdot too i think
[23:39] <Jordan_U> RAOF: How can I force dithering?
[23:39] <Cycom> hey, anyone know what would cause this error in alacarte? IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'alacarte-made.directory'
[23:39] <Cycom> I'm trying to edit items in alacarte that suddenly lost their icons after installing ubuntustudio
[23:39] <RAOF> Jordan_U: I'm unsure; 'man radeon' or 'man ati' might give you the magical xorg.conf incantations.
[23:40] <RAOF> Jordan_U: For nouveau, it's Option "FPDither" "true".  I wouldn't be surprised if it's similar for radeon.
[23:41] <bsnider> check the catalyst control center
[23:58] <vistakiller> i think ibex kubuntu is very good
[23:59] <vistakiller> little problem from alpha distro