/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/09/03/#ubuntu+1.txt

ghindoHi, is anybody else having trouble updating python-gobject?00:17
RAOFYes, everybody.00:19
RAOFThere's some (presumably temporary) archive skew; nothing to see here.00:20
ghindoAh, cool.00:27
ghindoRAOF: Thanks00:27
theunixgeekIs there a package available that has libgtk2.0-dev and all its dependencies in it?00:40
RAOFtheunixgeek: Yes.  libgtk2.0-dev00:42
RAOFI'm obviously confused as to what you actually want.00:43
theunixgeekRAOF: but then it has to download all the dependencies' packages with it00:43
theunixgeekI'm looking for an all-in-one00:43
theunixgeekbecause I don't have internet on my Linux computer :(00:43
theunixgeekI want to wget the package from my mac00:43
RAOFRight.  So, that's not the way we work, so there isn't such a package.00:44
RAOFOn the other hand, there are tools to create a script which will download the package and all its dependencies.00:44
theunixgeekRAOF: I know but some of the downloaded packages didn't install correctly :/00:45
theunixgeeknamely libc600:45
trontonicI'm having trouble with libc6 too00:45
RAOFYou were using apt-zip?00:45
theunixgeekRAOF: synaptic00:45
RAOFOh, that includes the apropriate functionality?  Awesome.00:45
RAOFAnyway, so we've moved on to your _acutal_ problem then; libc6 hasn't installed correctly.00:46
RAOFGot the dpkg output for trying to install libc6?00:46
theunixgeekRAOF: yes - that it installs correctly :)00:47
RAOFOk.  So, how about the _failed_ dpkg log? :)00:47
theunixgeekRAOF: nothing :)00:48
RAOFAh.  It now works, then.  Great.00:49
theunixgeekI have to go now, good night00:53
bsniderthe python-gobject problem has been fixed01:30
doggymenzin 8.10 final, will audio finally not fuckup?01:37
doggymenzso i can listen rhythmbox and watch youtube?01:38
void^look into libflashsupport, and bug adobe about their bugs? :)01:39
doggymenzisnt this a problem of pulseaudio?01:39
doggymenzits not only adobe, i cant use rhythmbox and eSpeak or Festival together at same time either01:40
doggymenzflash works great when you dont use rhythmbox, and rhythmbox works great when you dont use flash01:40
doggymenzits not flash problem, its integration problem01:41
doggymenzboth apps work fine alone, just not together01:41
void^looks like your soundcard doesn't support hardware mixing, so you'll always have some amount of trouble01:43
doggymenzworks great in windows01:44
void^now the issue is if pulseaudio is active, all apps using pulseaudio will run fine but others won't be able to use the soundcard01:44
doggymenzyou can play flash and rhythmbox at same time?01:44
void^if pulseaudio is on standby a single other app works01:44
void^windows drivers always do software mixing01:44
doggymenzthen linux should do software mixing too01:44
void^you can also set up alsa to do software mixing of course01:44
RAOFdoggymenz: pulseaudio _does_ do software mixing :)01:46
void^yes, for those apps that support it which is probably most now. there's also a wrapper for oss available, padsp01:46
doggymenzobviously not, else rhythmbox would be able to work together with flash, eSpeak, Festival, etc, it dont01:47
RAOFThere are some integration problems; it'd be nice to turn on ALSA->pulse by default, too.01:47
void^flash is just a piece of garbage software. they've quite literally "outsourced" the problem by introducing support for this liblfashsupport thingie01:48
doggymenzyeah, flash on linux works garbage01:48
RAOFFlash 10 is much better about not abusing the ALSA API, too.01:48
void^i don't know those other applications01:48
doggymenzpoor performance too01:48
doggymenzi wonder why ALSA dont do software mixing01:48
intangiri just booted the intrepid disk01:48
intangirgoes to a black screen01:48
LSD|Ninjadoggymenz: because open source devs are lazy01:49
void^it _can_ do, but it nomally doesn't since hardware mixing is better01:49
intangirwhen i try to shutdown my computer it shows the ubuntu progress screen for shutting down ;)01:49
doggymenzand why is software mixing needed? doesnt all audio since 10 years do hardware mixing?01:49
RAOFdoggymenz: It does.  But pulseaudio doesn't use it, because it introduces unpredictable latency.01:49
void^yours doesn't?01:49
intangirall the older versions for the last few years have worked fine on my hardware01:49
RAOFdoggymenz: Audio hardware is moving to the CPU, now that they're infinitely fast.01:49
intangirdoggymenz: alot of hardware doesnt do hardware mxing01:49
intangirall the AC97 stuff doesnt01:49
intangirand that is probably about the most common audio hardware now01:49
LSD|Ninjayeah, and AC'97 has only been around for like, 10 years01:49
LSD|NinjaThe reason this problem continues to exist even after all this time is laziness, pure and simple01:50
intangiralso with software mixing you can set volume levels and outputs stream by stream01:50
intangiryou cant do that with hardware mixing01:50
intangirthats already, with pulseaudio01:50
intangirlater who knows what kind of effects/filters youll be able to do stream by stream01:51
doggymenzyeah, effects/filters would be awesome01:51
RAOFWell, there's already positional effects, but that's more for sound notifications than anything else.01:51
doggymenzlike if i use a microphone, it make me sound like a girl lool01:51
void^pulseaudio is quite nice, though i usually use it just to redirect audio to another room easily01:51
intangirdoggymenz: they have that with direct audio on windows ,but it would be cool to have weird effects like that on linux too01:52
doggymenzyeah01:52
doggymenzdidnt know they have that01:52
intangirive heard people using it on ventrilo01:52
intangirwhich runs on linux ;)01:52
doggymenzoh cool01:52
doggymenzthey sound like girl?01:52
intangirthey sound like a chipmunk more like01:52
doggymenzhehe01:52
intangiralso like a scary low voice hehe01:52
intangiryou can do weird effects01:52
doggymenzwonder if it can make me sound scottish01:53
intangirdoubtful01:53
doggymenzhehe01:53
crimsunI'd like to clear the misconception that ALSA doesn't do "software mixing" by default.  It does, and in fact, has since 1.0.9b.01:53
intangiri had the dmix .. thing01:53
intangirsince for a long time01:53
intangirit does software mixing01:53
doggymenzyeah, but with bad latency?01:53
intangiri havent noticed much latency issue with it01:53
crimsunno, with tolerable and mostly negligible latency.01:53
intangirlike maybe 200ms at most? i dont know01:54
doggymenzoh01:54
crimsunall the "horrible latency" FUD is just that.  FUD.01:54
x1250how could pulseaudio have better latency than alsa? is that possible? :S01:54
intangirpulse is pretty damn badass though01:54
void^crimsun: ah. didn't know that. might be why i'm rarely encountering issues on non-hardwaremixing boards these days :)01:54
intangirpulse even has a new method they are going to use thats going to be super awesome01:54
intangirit does weird stuff with buffering01:54
intangirthere will be like zero latency01:54
intangiri forget what they were calling it01:54
crimsunx1250: glitch-free in git has smarter semantics.01:54
intangirit may be out by now.. oh ya glitch free01:54
void^one disadvantage of pulseaudio is noticeable cpu overhead01:55
intangirim loving pulse01:55
intangirit can do amazing things. like this listen.. i have a server with NO AUDIO HARDWARE01:55
intangiri can run pulse, i can run audio streams to 'null streams' and then use that null stream as a recording source01:55
crimsunvoid^: by default, yes, because speex-3 is used.  speex-1 has virtually unnoticable difference in resampling (to the user's ears) with lower CPU usage.01:55
intangirand then broadcast xmms audio over ventrilo on a machine with no soundcard01:56
intangirits pretty sweet01:56
intangiryou can do tons of other amazing things with it01:56
intangiryou could sorta do it with .. arts? i think before. but it was a tremendous pain in the ass to setup01:56
intangirand you had to do it EVERYTIME you wanted to run it01:56
intangirand also it required tons of utils01:56
crimsunthere's so much confusion and FUD surrounding Linux audio that I'm giving a talk on it at OhioLinuxFest.01:56
intangirnow i configure it once, and it remembers the settings and works, with no more than the default installed tools01:56
void^crimsun: right, thanks. i'll take a look on their site and read up before talking more garbage :]01:56
intangiri was skeptical of pulse audio at first but i am totally loving it01:57
intangirand it works with all the other sound library.. things01:57
intangirlike oss apps can use it with padsp01:57
doggymenzcrimsun, does Vista or Mac OS X have better audio than Linux?01:57
intangirand alsa apps can output to pulse instead of soundcard01:57
crimsundoggymenz: that's a contextless and thus, unanswerable, question.01:58
intangirive never seen features like pulse has in windows01:58
intangirwindows has other features thatl inux doesnt have yet though01:58
intangirbut i think the windows features are more of things youd never use. and dont care about01:58
doggymenzsomeone should make comparison01:58
crimsunintangir: padsp suffers the same drawbacks that every preloadable library for Linux audio does.01:58
intangirand the linux features are things youd never think of, but once you have them holy shit are they ever badass01:58
intangircrimsun: what drawbacks?01:58
crimsunintangir: OSS relies on mixing semantics that cannot be done reliably from userspace.01:59
crimsunthat is why OSS has always done mixing in kernelspace.01:59
intangirim not sure what that means really, im using it though and it seems fine01:59
intangirhavent had any problems with it01:59
intangiractually it works better than OSS did01:59
crimsunintangir: try using padsp with multiple OSS apps that rely on mmap access.02:00
bsnideri'd say vista's userspace sound system is better than pulse right now02:01
doggymenzcan you apply effect to a stream? like if i play piano, it will sound like piano is inside draculas 1800 year old stone castle?02:01
crimsunbsnider: I disagree w/ that assessment under the most common Vista uses.02:02
bsniderbecause all volume control is on one easy pane even for apps that don't normally have volume controls but do use sound02:02
intangircrimsun: im using it with wine02:02
intangiri use it on ventrilo and world of warcraft02:02
intangirthey both share it fine02:02
intangirwithout any issues, with real OSS and also with alsa i had tons of lock ups, crashes, and it would just stop working without any obvious error.. other than no audio02:02
crimsunintangir: now try it on a different audio chipset that doesn't support it.02:02
intangirbut with pulse ive had 0 issues02:02
intangirim using it on a soundblaster live, and an AC97 thing02:03
intangirit can even play to both at once02:03
crimsunintangir: of course, those both are mmapable.  And they're both AC'97, BTW.02:03
crimsunor to be pedantic, they both implement some AC'97 spec revision.02:03
crimsunbsnider: I certainly do not disagree that UI is much better integrated in Vista.02:04
crimsunyou should keep an eye on what Fedora 10 offers in terms of integration.02:04
bsniderpulse does this too, but not so conveniently02:04
bsnidera pulse plugin for alsamix that integrates volume controls for apps would be nice02:05
doggymenzdoes it exist those voice alter machines that the murderer guy uses when he calls up the victims on the phone in movies?02:05
doggymenzthey exist in real?02:05
crimsunvocoders?  Of course.02:06
doggymenzoh02:06
crimsunbsnider: if I understand what you're alluding to, that's being tackled at both the app and the PA layers.02:06
doggymenzcan you have a virtual software vocoder in linux?02:07
crimsuncurrently - at least in GNOME - the mixer controls are a mess.  Per-app volumes are utterly discombobulated.02:07
bsnidervista not only has volume controls for apps that don't normally have them, like msn messenger, the control is persistent even whent he app isn't actually using sound, which is superior to what pulse does02:07
crimsunbsnider: as I mentioned, that's being addressed in PA and in GNOME apps.02:07
intangiralls i know is pulse audio is kicking ass for me02:07
intangiralso intrepid wont boot for me!02:08
intangirthats why i came in here02:08
bsniderthe volume control in pulse for pidgin will come and go too quickly to be useful02:08
bsnideri hope fedora does fix it02:08
intangirit shows loading, then goes toa  ablack screen, till i close it02:08
intangirtill i hit power i mean02:08
intangiranyone else here still use xmms ;)02:08
intangiri havent found another player than can be used for an AUDIO and VIDEO playlist02:09
bsniderwhy would i?02:09
bsniderbanshee02:09
intangira searchable playlist too02:09
intangiruses mplayer plugin to play movies02:09
intangiri like mplayer out of all the movie players best02:09
bsnidercan't kmplayer do that?02:10
bsnideror kplayer?02:10
bsnideror smplayer?02:10
intangiri havent tried any of those02:10
intangirplays audio, and video, with a playlist, and its searchable?02:10
crimsunbsnider: that, too, is being addressed.02:10
intangirand hotkeyable02:10
* crimsun chuckles02:10
crimsunall these problems are known and WIP02:10
bsnidercrimsun, not to be a buttinski here, but how do you know?02:11
crimsunintangir: where does the boot sequence fail?02:11
crimsunbsnider: I formerly maintained Ubuntu's audio infrastructure.02:11
bsnideris your first name lennart?02:11
crimsunbsnider: no, Daniel.02:12
intangircrimsun: once it should be opening X02:12
crimsunbsnider: however, you can follow Lennart's work02:12
bsniderwho mantains it now?02:12
crimsunbsnider: Luke Yelavich02:12
bsnideroh, that's right02:12
bsnideri'm using his ppa pulse 9.11 packages right now02:12
bsniderthey are starting to replace all of that "sink" crap with the actual sound card names02:13
bsniderthat's good02:13
* RAOF should really file a bug about those; glitch-free seems to interact badly with hda_intel02:13
crimsunRAOF: that's our fault; we're not using git.02:13
crimsun(rather, a git snapshot)02:13
RAOFcrimsun: I thought we'd pulled in the alsa patches needed to make it work?  Am I wrong?02:14
crimsunnamely, we need to use alsa-lib 1.0.18 + 2 git patches and PA git.02:14
crimsun(that should be 1.0.18rc, obviously)02:14
bsnideri  use hda intel and pulse 9.11 and it works fine here02:15
bsniderthe roof hasn't crashed in02:15
crimsunbsnider: "hda intel" doesn't mean a thing.02:15
RAOFbsnider: You don't get annoying crackles with mini-xruns?02:15
crimsunbsnider: different HDA codecs use different buffering techniques.02:15
doggymenzi think Intel HDA means that it conforms to the Intel Azalia spec02:16
bsniderhow would you define a mini-xrun?02:16
doggymenzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_High_Definition_Audio02:16
intangirk i gotta go. laters02:16
RAOFA buffer underrun that's small enough to result in a 'crackle' or 'pop' in the music.02:16
crimsundoggymenz: no, it means it implements - in some fashion - Azalia.  There is no such thing as "conforming" to it, which is why there are hundreds of quirk entries in the sound driver code.02:16
bsnideri haven't heard anything like that02:17
doggymenzoh02:17
bsnideraudio preview doesn't work, but i'm sure that's something else02:17
crimsunRAOF: (I suppose you may be able to convince Luke to work at alsa-lib git and PA git, but I don't make any claim on his time)02:17
RAOFcrimsun: It's not in Intrepid yet; I should file the bug to either prevent it entering or ensure it enters with newer alsa-lib.02:18
crimsunRAOF: _some_ of those symptoms can be worked around by tweaking fragment parameters for PA, but that's hardly scalable across audio hardware.02:18
RAOFAnd Luke's on holiday at the moment, I think.02:18
doggymenzx is broken in intrepid? why my xchat and firefox have broken rendering?02:19
RAOFdoggymenz: Not here.02:19
crimsunhe deserves it.  Picking up what he has been doing is hardly a breeze :)02:19
bsnideri thought the latest alsa was already int he kernel02:24
LSD|NinjaThe drivers in the kernel tend to be slightly behind the ones in the external package. For the most part though, the ones in the kernel are the way to go02:25
ryanpganyone know if X.Org 7.4 / X Server 1.5 is going to be in intrepid?03:29
doggymenzyes03:30
doggymenzit will03:30
ryanpgnice, and also DRI2 and KMS?03:30
ryanpgand therefore GEM too?03:30
doggymenzno, not DRI2 because it was delayed because Intel switched from TTM to GEM03:30
doggymenzKMS i dont know what is03:30
ryanpgkernel mode setting03:30
doggymenzdont know about that03:31
RAOFNo.  None of those things are in drm master.03:31
ryanpgbummer03:32
RAOFBut Xorg 7.4 is in, we've got 1.5rc6 at the moment.03:32
doggymenzhttp://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NjYzNw -- Xorg 7.4 have no DRI203:32
ryanpgbut xorg 7.4 should have GEM support for intel though yes?03:33
RAOFNo.03:33
ryanpgugh03:33
RAOFGEM doesn't actually have much to do with Xorg, anyway.03:33
RAOFIt's for the drm.03:34
ryanpgRAOF, it's just a feature of the intel driver correct?03:34
ryanpgI mean as of now03:34
RAOFNot really.  It's partial GPU API.03:34
RAOFs/GPU/GPU memory/03:34
ryanpgright, it replaces TTM03:35
RAOFAgain, not really.03:35
RAOF:)03:35
ryanpgbut I thought all the TTM stuff was taken out of the current intel driver?03:35
RAOFYes.03:35
RAOFBut that's because their hardware is crap.03:35
RAOFFor cards with real resources (actual onboard VRAM, for example), TTM still makes some sense.03:35
RAOFradeon is currently having a GEM+TTM makeover, I believe.  And nouveau has some of that, too.03:36
ryanpgbut why did you say GEM won't be supported by 7.4?03:37
RAOFBecause GEM isn't something that Xorg needs to 'support'.03:37
ryanpgseems like (as I said) it's more of a driver/mesa implementation03:37
RAOFIt's actually lower level than that.03:37
DanaGwtf... (vboxgtk:16242): libglade-WARNING **: could not find glade file '/home/dana/vboxgtk.glade'03:37
RAOFNeither X nor mesa really need to care about GEM.03:37
ryanpgoh ok... semantics... the intel driver and mesa that ships with intrepid will have GEM03:37
ryanpglol, well RAOF I'm too dense for this I guess... thanks for trying to get me to understand though03:38
RAOFNo, it won't.  Because that requires git snapshots of various branches.03:38
DanaGself.base_path = os.getcwd() + '/'03:38
DanaGIs it just me.... or is that way wrong?03:38
DanaGWrong, as in... I sure don't install packages there!03:39
RAOFSeems pretty unreasonable, yes.03:39
ryanpgI guess I can always build mesa and intel and a KMS kernel too :)03:39
RAOFIf you run "git clone" against drm, mesa, and xf86-video-intel, you won't get any GEM code.03:39
RAOF(You additionally need to checkout the various branches)03:39
ryanpglooks like they merged the gem branch to main a couple weeks ago03:40
ryanpghttp://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=xorg/driver/xf86-video-intel.git;a=commit;h=08326827fdb8abecbff20c7b051537dbad433c4003:40
RAOFOh, cool.03:42
RAOFI don't follow intel too closely.  My interest is with nouveau.03:42
doggymenzi have gf8600, but nvidia sucks, they only can make proprietary device driver, and dont want make open source, so i think they are assholes, and i dont like them03:43
doggymenznext time, i dont buy nvidia03:43
LSD|Ninja...03:43
doggymenzIntel had open source for GMA chipset, and ATI has open source for Radeon03:43
doggymenznow even VIA has make some open source, i read on slashdot03:44
doggymenzonly nvidia dont want03:44
LSD|Ninja...03:44
* DanaG ♥ ATI.03:44
JontheEchidnaI just hope nvidia releases legacy drivers soon03:45
doggymenzlegacy driver?03:45
JontheEchidnathat work with the latest xorgf03:45
JontheEchidna*xorg03:45
JontheEchidna96.x series and 71.x03:45
doggymenzmy 177 driver work on gf8600 on xorg in03:45
doggymenzoh, they old03:45
LSD|NinjaIf I were them I'd be taking my time too03:45
doggymenzyeah, they must update those03:46
doggymenzyeah, they want take time be lazy to make you buy new03:46
LSD|Ninja...03:46
doggymenzif it was open source, it could be compiled for new xorg long time ago03:46
LSD|Ninjadoggymenz: Dude, there is a world outside your mums basement. Go out into it, please.03:46
doggymenz???03:46
doggymenzwhy?03:46
doggymenzyou are nvidia fanboy03:46
doggymenz?03:46
doggymenzor maybe you think its good to wait and take time and not update legacy driver? well, i think its being an asshole who is mean to customer03:47
* JontheEchidna just sighs and goes off to bed03:48
ryanpgand mesa added some level of GEM support to main too03:50
ryanpgso mesa 7.1 and git driver-intel should = GEM I think...03:51
DanaGMy next laptop will have an ATI Mobility Radeon HD3650 (or Mobility FireGL V5700).03:54
RAOFryanpg: But GEM doesn't get you anything interesting.  All you really want is DRI203:55
doggymenzwhat is GEM good for?03:58
doggymenzwhat is DRI2 good for?03:58
bsnidergem manages memory03:59
doggymenzwhat is good for lol03:59
RAOFGEM is good for implementing DRI2.  DRI2 is good for fixing 3d + Composite03:59
doggymenzbut i already have compiz03:59
doggymenzwhy should i care about GEM or DRI2?03:59
bsniderusing which driver?03:59
ryanpgwell, dri2 is something I look forward to03:59
ryanpgGEM helps with EXA performance03:59
doggymenzi use nvidia-17703:59
doggymenzwhat EXA good for?04:00
bsniderthen you already have a much better 3d/opengl than intel or ati will ever have04:00
ryanpgaccelerating fun the stuff04:00
crdlbnvidia has their own stack for _everything_04:00
doggymenzoh04:00
crdlbthey even replace the glx module in xserver-xorg-coer04:00
crdlbcore*04:00
doggymenztoo bad they wont share :(04:00
DanaGI'd rather have open-source, myself.04:00
bsnidernvidia implements opengl 2.1.2 on linux, nobody else comes close to that04:01
bsnidereven apple doesn't have 2.104:01
bsniderapple has 2.004:01
doggymenzoh04:01
doggymenzbut now is opengl 3.0 released04:02
doggymenzati and intel dont have opengl 2.1?04:02
bsniderno04:02
bsniderthey have 1.304:02
doggymenzoh, wow that sucks04:02
doggymenz1.3 is like what? 15 years old?04:02
bsnideryeah, tell me about it04:02
bsniderwith no memory manager (before gem)04:02
LSD|Ninjameh, I stopped caring about OpenGL years ago04:02
doggymenzi dont know what memory manager is good for04:02
bsniderusing your graphics card's ram04:02
DanaGnvidia also has this habit of breaking my consoles if you VT-switch too much.04:02
bsniderthe only way to get opengl 3.0 right now is to use windows, which is strange because microsoft isn't a member of the chronos group and doesn't know anything about opengl04:04
doggymenzoh04:04
bsniderchronos's leading member, apple, doesn't even properly implement it04:04
crdlbopengl 3.0 doesn't really offer anything over 2.004:04
crdlbthey cut all the cool stuff04:05
bsniderthe two upcoming updates will04:05
bsniderbut i'm sure tungsten will get around to implementing opengl 3.xx in gallium3d, which will then lead to open source drivers for ati and intel...some time in the 24th century04:06
doggymenzoh04:07
doggymenzwhat gallium3d good for?04:07
doggymenzwhat is memory manager good for?04:07
crdlbgallium is for making mesa a useful platform for a modern 3d driver04:07
doggymenzoh04:08
bsnideryour graphics card has ram all of its own. there needs to be a memory manager to deal with that ram and use it. currently, there isn't one for linux04:09
doggymenztungsten graphics website say "a group of graphics experts with an unrelenting desire to pursue state-of-the-art graphics technologies." but it still only has opengl 1.3 15 year old tech? not so state-of-the-art04:09
bsniderthat's what gem is04:09
doggymenzok, so there isnt a memory manager, but i can still use compiz and play portal and hl2 in wine, so what is memory manager good for?04:09
bsnideryour nvidia driver does have a memory manager04:10
bsniderbut it's a proprietary nvidia memory manager04:10
bsniderit's not available to other graphics cards and can't be included int he linux kernel04:10
doggymenzoh04:11
doggymenzseems like nvidia has done some amazing work that via, intel, ati, tungsten and nobody else has done - shame that they wont share it04:11
LSD|Ninjameh04:12
bsniderwhat's a shame is htat these issues have beena round for so long and nobody has fixed them04:12
doggymenzbut lately things are picking up and moving? arent they?04:12
bsnideryes04:12
crdlbdoggymenz: they probably really can't (code licensing and patents) and it wouldn't really be helpful as it's all nvidia-specific04:13
doggymenzoh04:13
doggymenzbut obviously tungsten can do it04:13
bsnideri'll believe it when i see it04:14
bsniderright now gallium is vaporware04:14
bsnideri hope they do it, but i'm not holding my breath04:14
crdlbdoggymenz: they're writing fresh code04:17
DanaGAnybody else unable to type into this thing?  http://bestbuy.shoplocal.com/bestbuy/default.aspx?action=entryflash&adref=header&h=50404:20
doggymenzi can type zipcode in the flash04:22
LSD|Ninjanot that it's any help in my case but same :P04:24
DanaGEeh, I had to copy and paste.04:48
osmosismonitor power saving doesnt work. help.04:59
RAOFOk, that's a pretty screwy behaviour.  When I run emacs, it opens on the desktop _below_ my current one.  Thus neatly making it appear that it doesn't start at all!06:59
RAOFlaughtear: So, what's your problem?07:25
RAOF(Note that some drivers are broken and beyond our control, care of crappy binary-blobness)07:26
laughtearRAOF: i was using hardy heron, and upgraded to ibex within it, now my screen resolution is so low, and nvidia drivers stopped working07:26
RAOFlaughtear: What's your card?07:27
laughtearRAOF: probably i must uninstall the old drivers and re-install them, but i'm not quite sure how to do it..07:27
RAOFlaughtear: Were you using the Ubuntu-supplied nvidia drivers before you upgraded?  And did you upgrade with update-manager?07:28
laughtearRAOF: i have an nvidia 6600gt with 128mb memory, and a samsung 226bw monitor which has default 1680x1050 resolution.07:28
laughteari upgraded with upgrade manager by pressing alt-f2 and typing -d.07:28
laughtearRAOF: nvidia drivers were the restricted ones probably07:29
RAOFHm, OK.  I believe it should have got everything working for you.  If you were using the Ubuntu-supplied drivers, this would be good to report as a bug against upgrade-manager.07:29
RAOFSo, can you pastebin the output of "aptitude search nvidia-glx"?07:29
laughtearRAOF: sure, gimme a sec07:29
laughtearRAOF: here you are: http://paste.ubuntu.com/42958/07:31
RAOFHm.  That looks OK; you've got the right driver installed.07:32
laughtearRAOF: so, now...? :)07:34
RAOFCan you try "sudo aptitude reinstall nvidia-177-kernel-source"?07:34
laughtearok, let me try it07:34
laughtearafter i begin the thing you just told, there appeared a colorful terminal (similar) screen asking me something more, about removing some packages etc... which should i choose?07:36
RAOFWhat, really?07:37
laughtearyep07:37
laughtear:)07:37
RAOFThat surprises me :)07:37
RAOFCan you pastebin the output?07:37
laughtearwell, i can, but it's turkish (the default language of this system)07:38
laughtearso i think, it's better for us if i translate the text here?07:38
RAOFYeah, that'll do.07:38
RAOFAlternatively, you could run "LC_ALL=C sudo aptitude reinstall nvidia-177-kernel-source" which should make it run in English.07:39
laughtearat the top, the blue highlighted part, there are options like; actions, undo, packages, appearence etc.. (these are all in turkish)07:40
RAOFAh.07:41
laughtearbelow; the unused packages listed: ida openssh-blacklist07:41
RAOFYou appear to have run "aptitude", rather than "sudo aptitude reinstall nvidia-177-kernel-source"07:41
laughtearbelow; the packages gonna be kept: i clamav etc...07:42
laughtearwell, i pasted what you wrote buddy..:)07:42
laughtearand it asked my sudo password...07:42
RAOFLet's try this then...07:42
laughtearall rite07:42
laughtearclosing that window?07:42
RAOF"sudo dpkg-reconfigure nvidia-177-kernel-source"07:42
RAOFYeah, close it away.07:42
laughteardoing that..:)07:43
laughtearit says that it's done07:44
laughtearnow? reboot?07:44
RAOFYeah.  If it didn't fail, that should have everything set.07:45
laughtearok, thank you..:) hope to see you again..:)07:46
zerwasDid someone successfully built Chrome?07:48
RAOFYes, but it doesn't actually do anything at all on linux at the moment.  There's no UI.07:48
RAOFlaughtear: Now, if everything is not working fine, you get to pastebin your /var/log/Xorg.0.log07:54
laughtearokay, something changed about the system (the log off buttons etc..) but resolutions is the same07:54
RAOFYou're about to pastebin /var/log/Xorg.0.log now, right?07:56
laughtearhere you are: http://paste.ubuntu.com/42965/07:56
RAOF:)07:56
laughtearRAOF07:56
laughtear:)07:56
RAOFOk.  Can you pastebin /etc/X11/xorg.conf ?07:57
laughtearokay, a sec07:57
laughtearRAOF: here sir...:) : http://paste.ubuntu.com/42967/07:58
RAOFThat's fairly messed up.  How did you generate that?07:59
RAOFFor future reference: it's explicitly asking for a resolution of 640x480, making sure that the screen size can never get above that resolution, and asking for the vesa driver :)08:00
RAOFlaughtear: In particular, I'd suggest "sudo mv /etc/X11/xorg.conf ~/xorg.conf.backup" to move your old xorg.conf away, followed by "sudo nvidia-xconfig" to generate a new (hopefully) working one.08:01
laughtearwell, we just bought a tv, has an vga input, tried to use it to watch movies, as trying i also installed the nvidia x-server settings, etc etc...08:02
laughtearRAOF: probably the backed up one is corrupted too. can't we built a new one for intrepid ibex, just asking..:S08:03
RAOFIn which case I'd suggest running "sudo nvidia-xconfig --twinview", to set up dual-head :)08:03
RAOFlaughtear: In particular, I'd suggest "sudo mv /etc/X11/xorg.conf ~/xorg.conf.backup" to move your old xorg.conf away, followed by "sudo nvidia-xconfig" to generate a new (hopefully) working one. <---------- This will create a new xorg.conf :)08:03
laughtearRAOF: i gave up about that twin view subject, unfortunately i still use windows for movies..:(08:03
laughtearokay....:)08:03
laughteardone, but wonder if this is normal or not: WARNING: Unable to locate/open X configuration file. New X configuration file written to '/etc/X11/xorg.conf'08:04
laughtear...before reboot..:)08:05
RAOFThat's just fine.08:05
RAOFHm.08:05
laughtearok, rebooting...08:06
RAOFI'd edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf before rebooting; make sure there isn't a line containing 'rgb.txt'08:06
laughtearok, let me check08:06
laughteari think there is not (could not find).08:07
RAOFGood.  You should be good to go, then.08:08
laughtearokay08:08
=== zerwas_ is now known as zerwas
Jordan_UWhy is the Heron Desktop background named "warty-final-ubuntu" ?08:15
RAOFJordan_U: Hysterical rasins08:15
crdlbthe artists were on strike, so they recycled the image from warty08:18
Jordan_Ucrdlb: Didn't Warty have the "controversial" backgrounds :)08:21
verwilsttomorrow is alpha5 time08:25
laughtearRAOF: i'm back with a better resolution: 800X600...:S:), after starting by choosing recovery and repair x-server configuration. then i uninstalled the nvidia x-server settings program... and i am here...:)08:25
* verwilst will download to take a first look08:25
verwilstthat brownish theme ive seen in a screenshot, is that the default in intrepid?08:26
laughtearRAOF: i think i must uninstall (clean up whatever installed before) all nvidia drivers and install the latest ones08:26
laughtearRAOF: there?..08:28
balachmarHi, any one else experiencing a black screen when trying to boot into the latest kernel?09:33
Hobbseeyes09:35
balachmarAm I right in thinking it is this bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/usplash/+bug/259007 ?09:39
ubottuLaunchpad bug 259007 in usplash "screen is black during boot time" [Undecided,New]09:39
balachmarAnd should I report that with the second kernel I get no network connection in my VM? It seems to be the same as: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/25913309:42
ubottuLaunchpad bug 259133 in ubuntu "[Intrepid] No network using Vmware Workstation" [Undecided,New]09:42
balachmarHowever just removing splash from the latest kernel line, doesn't enable me to log into gnome. The screen starts flashing...09:48
Hobbseebalachmar: fairly sure that's an old bug.09:48
Hobbseeweird.09:49
balachmarHobbsee maybe that is because I am in a VM?09:50
Hobbseebalachmar: could well be09:50
Hobbsee(the first bug being old, that is)09:50
balachmaryeah, the black screen is old. I know09:51
balachmarhmmm, weird now it does go flashing anymore just stays black even witout the splash boot option...09:53
balachmarno, that was my bad... I didn't remove the splash option. (used escape instead of return)09:55
balachmarI have a screenshot of the error now..09:55
balachmarHowever there is no error... See https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/usplash/+bug/259007 for my findings.09:59
ubottuLaunchpad bug 259007 in usplash "screen is black during boot time" [Undecided,New]09:59
theholyduckhow "stable" is 8.10?11:37
theholyduckcompared to normal debian sid?11:37
theholyducksince i need a up to date live cd install. that "Has" to be debian or a debian derative11:37
theholyduckand ubuntu 8.10 is the only thing that seems to support my chipset :P11:38
theholyduckthe question would be, is it stable enough for me to get wifi networking to work on it and install debian sid with it?11:39
Hobbseeit might work.  it might not.  at the moment, mine's rather tempramental about booting.11:39
theholyducki dont need it to work for more than half an hour :P11:40
theholyduckthe question is. WILL it?11:40
Ngthe answer is. try it :)11:41
theholyduckyeah i guess i have to :P11:41
theholyduckdaily live would be the best choice right?11:42
Ngmost likely, alpha4 is a bit old now11:43
Ngunless you fancy waiting for alpha511:43
theholyducknaw11:43
theholyduckid rather have a working sid system11:43
theholyducki COULD try getting a daily build of the sid installer11:43
theholyduckit MIGHT support my networking hardware11:43
theholyduckwell since i use a usb pen for the install. it doesnt really matter i guess11:44
=== inetpro is now known as wired
=== wired is now known as inetpro
=== fdd-0 is now known as fdd_
=== fdd_ is now known as Guest48574
Exilantis adept supposed to work right now, or is that still unsolved?12:21
JontheEchidnaadept should work in Intrepid with the latest updates12:21
JontheEchidnaand it works for me :P12:22
Exilantoh cool12:22
JontheEchidnaEarlier there still was the KDE3 version of adept which was missing KDE3 console12:23
JontheEchidnaand crashed on startup12:23
gnomefreakit removes everything adept* if you upgrade/install adept12:23
JontheEchidnayes, all the binaries are in one package now12:23
JontheEchidnaactually, binary12:23
gnomefreakah12:23
JontheEchidnait takes command line args to determine whether it goes in updater, installer, or manager mode12:24
JontheEchidnaadept notifier was replaced by update-notifier-kde12:24
JontheEchidnaadept batch was replaced by install-package12:24
Exilantok, thanks12:25
Exilantit indeed works12:25
Exilantalthough not from the start menu12:25
Exilantand i can't seem to find linux-image with it *confused*12:29
ExilantWhat kind of index does that use, adeptt doesn't show digikam-kde4 if i search for it. xapian does and apt-cache search does.13:32
Exilant*if i search for digikam13:33
schmidtm__clamav-getfiles (2.0-4) has a dependy on libdebian-package-make-perl (>0.3) which is not in the repos at all14:05
=== schmidtm__ is now known as schmidtm
vistakillerhello world i begin upgrade my system kubuntu hardy to ibex14:15
vistakilleri use my system from 7.04 and this is my third upgrade :D14:16
electroI've been getting an error recently since I installed KDE4.  "Error maximum number of clients in use".  Its not tied to Xlib as far as I can tell, but it refuses to open any new X apps until X is restarted.  Has anyone else run into this issue?  Thanks!14:28
Adri2000hmm, isn't gksu update-manager -d in hardy supposed to propose a dist-upgrade to intrepid?14:50
Adri2000looks like using -c as well helped14:52
Adri2000or maybe it's because I forgot the quotes around the command :)14:54
=== Sebast1an is now known as Sebastian
=== burner_ is now known as burner
tomahasamootmy apt database has a lock on it from a crashed program.  How do I remove the lock?15:54
Oli``Why do all the CPU-usage-reporting tools fail spectacularly in Intrepid? htop, conky and gnome-system-monitor all occasionally report that I'm using anywhere between 200% and 6000% of my CPU =\15:57
DanielRMWas anyone having segfaults with Python apps until today's updates?16:46
charliecbhi all17:00
charliecbDoes anybody know why openoffice 3.0 is not available in ubuntu 8.10 ?17:00
`Matircharliecb, probably because it has not been released yet17:03
Reed_Solomonyo,  I got kubuntu intrepid working for the most part (including compiz and wifi) with my new SL400 thinkpad17:13
Reed_Solomonalthough im using wicd instead of the kde wireless thing as that stopped working17:14
x1250tomahasamoot, just delete it with sudo rm. The path should be part of the output on your screen17:18
Reed_Solomonanyways, the new X auto-configuration thing is a bit confusing to me, anyone know how under the new regime to make it so that the middle thinkpad button can be used to scroll?17:22
Adri2000I find my mouse (actually touchpad) to be pretty slow, altough I configured correctly System > Preferences > Mouse, any idea?17:50
Adri2000also, I can't scroll anymore using the touchpad :/17:51
void^synaptics driver not loaded/working17:56
Cycomcan someone pastebin a copy of their ~/.local/share/applications/alacarte-made.directory?   I'm having an error where it says mine doesn't exit when I try to use alacarte.  I can't edit the properties on a few items in alacarte.17:56
Cycomexist*17:56
DanielRMCycom: one pastebin coming up.17:59
CycomDanielRM: thanks man.17:59
Cycomit's just bizzare.  I can't find any documentation on what this file is or what it does...18:00
DanielRMHmmm.18:00
Cycomand alacarte doesn't install it18:00
DanielRMI don't have an alacarte-made.directory18:00
DanielRMI have an alacarte-made.desktop, though.18:00
Cycomwhat the heck?18:00
CycomDanielRM: what version of alacarte do you have installed?18:01
DanielRM0.11.5-1ubuntu118:01
DanielRMI think I know what the problem is.18:01
Cycomsame version as me...18:01
DanielRMHave you made any custom folders in the menu using alacarte?18:01
DanielRMThe 'New Menu' option, I suppose it would be.18:02
Cycomnot using alacarte, but I have installed some packages that added menu items18:02
Cycomthe ubuntu studio packages18:02
DanielRMThey made a new directory?18:02
Cycomit killed the icons for a few menu items and I was trying to restore them18:02
DanielRMOr made a hidden one appear?18:02
Cycomit made new ones, I think18:03
Cycombut these are old directories that are having the problem...18:03
Cycomlike accessories has no icon except for a regular folder18:03
DanielRMWell, my thought was that, since my alacarte-made.desktop contains the custom menu items I've added (latest OpenArena etc.), alacarte-made.directory would contain custom directories.18:04
CycomAccessories, Games, Internet, and Multimedia all lost their icons.18:04
Cycombut multimedia is the only one with new items18:04
DanielRMsudo aptitude purge alacarte, perhaps?18:05
DanielRMThat should purge the config files too.18:05
Cycombeen there, done that :/18:05
DanielRMHmmm.18:05
CycomI did a remove all through synaptic actually. let me try a real purge18:06
Cycomnope. same problem after the purge18:08
DanielRMI have no idea what the problem is. :S18:13
DanielRMDoes the file exist?18:13
CycomI may have figured it out.  Can you give me an ls of /usr/share/desktop-directories/ ?18:16
DanielRMThere isn't an alacarte-made.directory in there, if that's what you're hoping for.18:17
Cycomno, not at all18:17
DanielRMWait a moment, then.18:17
DanielRMI'll pastebin it.18:17
Cycomis there an Accessories.directory in there?18:17
Cycomthat's the real key18:17
DanielRMNo.18:17
Cycomhrm.18:18
Cycomawright, pastebin it anyhow I suppose18:18
DanielRMCycom: http://pastebin.ubuntu-uk.org/3840418:22
CycomDanielRM: ugh. Just figured something out.  is there alacarte-made.directory in ~/.local/share/desktop-directories ?18:22
AndyCRWell, I tried downloading the x86 livecd ISO image and burning it, but the installation process failed. I then re-burned it, but this time it wouldn't even boot completely. I then re-downloaded it and re-burned it twice, same thing both times. I've been using the same burner and media for other versions and it's worked fine. Anyone know what's wrong?18:23
AndyCR(The Alpha 4 release)18:23
AndyCRIs anyone having luck with the Alpha 4 release ISO?18:23
AndyCRI'm beginning to wonder whether there's an issue with it18:24
AndyCRFor now I'm trying to update from 8.04 using update manager, but I'm not sure whether that will be "pure" enough18:24
AndyCR(My wireless drivers are rather bad in 8.04, and they seemed to work perfectly the time I managed to get 8.10 to boot off the livecd, so I'm hoping it'll install the new drivers when it upgrades)18:25
DanielRMCycom: no.18:25
CycomDanielRM: bugger. I hate to be a pain, but can you pastebin an ls of that too?18:25
DanielRMAndyCR: generally it's advised to install rather than upgrade.18:25
DanielRMCycom: sure. And it's not being a pain at all. :)18:25
DanielRMCycom: I've had bad experiences with applications menus recently.18:26
DanielRMCycom: although that was, admittedly, a different environment.18:26
AndyCRDanielRM: Thanks. Any idea why the install would fail so many times? I've never had luck -this- bad.18:26
AndyCRI could try burning the ISO on this machine instead, perhaps my burner is dying18:26
CycomAndyCR: haven't you verified the disc?18:27
AndyCRCycom: Well, actually, the disc verification utility only worked on one of the discs I burned. I suppose that's a bad sign. :)18:27
Cycomyeah18:27
AndyCRThe time it did work, it said the disc was curropt.18:27
IdleOnelmao AndyCR that really is not working but atleast you found it it was not working18:28
DanielRMCycom: http://pastebin.ubuntu-uk.org/3841318:29
AndyCRIn the process of installing 8.10 through update-manager now18:30
AndyCRHopefully it works18:30
DanielRMAndyCR: that sounds like it's dying, yes.18:30
AndyCRIf not, I suppose I'll burn it on the laptop18:30
AndyCRI couldn't before because the failed 8.10 install took out the MBR so I couldn't boot into an OS to burn it from :P18:30
AndyCRNow that I installed 8.04 I can, though/18:30
CycomDanielRM: thanks.  It's taking a REALLY long time to load for some reason, but so did the last one.18:31
DanielRMCycom: yeah, it seems the ubuntu-uk site is being hit.18:31
DanielRMCycom: at least, the pastebin part. I assume it's on a different server because the ircstats is quick to load.18:32
Cycomhrm.18:33
AndyCRI'm only upgrading because I seem to have the only Intel IPW3945 wifi card that Ubuntu doesn't like in the entire world18:35
AndyCRIt constantly disconnects, and apparently nobody else has the problem, even with the same laptop18:36
AndyCRIt works perfectly under Windows, though, so I'm not sure what to think - different hardware revision, perhaps18:36
LSD|NinjaThe drivers for that are in a state of flux right now I believe, not sure when it'll be sorted out18:40
AndyCRI remember hearing that there was IPW3945 and IWL3945, and I tried both in 7.10. IWL worked better most of the time, but they both had major issues18:43
AndyCRHopefully they've been changed somehow in 8.1018:43
LSD|NinjaI've only messed with a 3945 a couple of times under Ubuntu. Was impressed that it worked OOB but never really did much with it. I was waiting for the Lenovo recovery discs to arrive so I could put XP back on it for my sister18:45
AndyCRIPW seemed to work only about half the time, but the half it did it disconnected constantly18:46
AndyCRIt suspended well, though18:46
AndyCRIWL worked pretty well, and didn't disconnect as long as I pinged something at regular intervals (no idea why... Power management?), but was broken permanently until reboot if I suspended18:47
AndyCRI'm sure using WPA has something to do with it, since it works fine on normal networks18:48
LSD|NinjaThis was on a WPA network but it was also under Hardy18:48
AndyCRI suppose I should be thankful suspend even threatens to work18:53
AndyCREspecially considering it has an nvidia card18:53
TeiseiShutdown/Restart options working, anyone ?19:15
TeiseiIn Intrepid19:15
TeiseiI still have no luck with those buttons. It's always either "sudo reboot" or "sudo poweroff" in terminal :/19:16
tsutherI'm already running kde4.1.1 in Hardy Heron - anyone have advice on upgrading to Intrepid a bit early?19:22
tsutherI'm willing to test, file bugfixes, etc, but I have no real programming skills19:24
jtechidnatsuther: sudo do-release-upgrade -m desktop19:30
jtechidnabeware that the 96.x and 71.x propritetary drivers for older nvidia cards aren't compatible with the latest xorg19:31
tsutherso what will happen to my existing .kde4 settings?19:35
tsutherwill I have two kde4 sessions?  one in .kde and one int .kde4?19:35
tsutheror does it migrate settings?19:35
tsutherjtechidna: ^^^19:36
jtechidnayes19:36
jtechidnayou would have 2 sessions19:36
jtechidnawell, config folders19:36
jtechidnayou could just delete the .kde19:36
tsutherso it will kinda leave my existing kde 4.1.1 alone?19:36
jtechidnaand rename .kde4 to .kde19:36
jtechidnayour current kde 4.1.1 config will be safe19:36
tsutherno know issues with my Mobility Radeon X1300?19:37
tsuther*known19:37
* jtechidna doesn't know any19:40
tsutherjtechidna: "sudo do-release-upgrade -m desktop" gets me "No new release found"19:41
jtechidnamaybe you need to throw in a -d in the mix19:42
jtechidna-dm19:42
tsutherah yes19:42
tsutherthanks!19:42
jtechidna:)19:42
noodlesgcdoes Intrepid use DRI2?19:42
AndyCRWell, the upgrade worked fine, and the wifi seems to work fine20:18
AndyCRThanks for the help20:19
noodlesgcisn't Alpha 5 coming out tomorrow?20:44
siegienoodlesgc: yes21:08
x1250some flash pages blinks in here, is this a known issue?21:24
xanax`hello21:32
xanax`is the alpha 4 a bit useable ? Everytime I start my system, i get kernel errors at boot process21:33
bsnideri think some people were having boot problems with the new kernel21:34
bsniderit is supposed to be fixed in a few days21:35
bsniderwhen they release 2.6.27-321:35
xanax`ok21:35
MyrttiI just hate flash21:35
bsniderflash hates you too21:36
Myrttieither I crash my browser with adobe flash and nspluginwrapper or with swfdec and buggy gtk.21:36
bsniderhow would you expect it to feel? you come out and say you hate it. of course it will reciprocate21:36
bsniderMyrtti, you and everyone else21:38
bsnideri'm sure they're working on it21:39
MyrttiI certainly do hope so - I'm getting so tired with epiphany crashing all the time21:40
bsnideroh, it crashes epiphany? i was talking about fireforks21:41
bsniderare you using the webkit engine or gecko?21:41
Myrttigecko - I tried to use webkit but it's unusable for me21:43
Myrttiand since it's gecko, I believe the error exists on both firefox and epiphany21:44
bsniderwhat do you mean unusable?21:44
Myrttithe website that I have to enter on daily basis is using selfsigned SSL certificate and .htaccess authentication - even if I can bypass the ssl certificate check, apparently gtk can't handle the .htaccess thing21:45
bsniderbut for regular web browsing, it's ok?21:45
Myrttiyes21:45
crdlbwebkit-gtk still doesn't have persistent cookie support21:46
bsniderwell the obvious question is why not use hardy21:46
crdlband very limited tab support (no middle-clicking, etc)21:46
Myrttiyup - and no adblock either21:46
Myrttiso I'm not really even considering webkit21:46
=== bronson is now known as sab
bsnideryou coulod try opera21:48
Myrttihttps://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox-3.0/+bug/25076921:51
ubottuLaunchpad bug 250769 in xulrunner-1.9 "Firefox opens new popup window when leaving any page with swfdec content" [Undecided,Confirmed]21:51
Myrttiso basically it's fixed upstream21:56
bsniderhttp://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=90689721:57
Myrttiyup - that's if you're using flashplugin-nonfree and nspluginwrapper21:59
Myrttibut I get basically the same with swfdec - in a system that has never even had nspluginwrapper installed21:59
Myrttiit just might be that both are same issues actually22:00
bsniderprobably22:07
bsniderbut everybody's got it22:08
vistakillerhi i just upgrade my system kubuntu hardy to ibex22:09
vistakilleri have problem with usb mouse and keyboard in 27 kernel22:10
xanax`and your system is broken ?22:10
vistakillerthe problem is not exist in the older system22:10
vistakillerno22:10
vistakillermy system never break22:10
vistakilleri have thsi system from three upgrades :D22:10
bsniderlots of people are having issues with the mouse & keyboard22:11
electroIbex has been a more complicated beta than feisty / hardy22:11
electroimo22:11
bsniderit isn't at beta22:11
bsniderit's alpha22:11
electrowell allpha22:11
electroi never had as many problems with the hardy alpha22:11
bsniderthe mouse/keyboard stuff was moved out of xorg.conf22:12
vistakillerfonts in default looks very small22:16
vistakilleri just put them in kubuntu to 96 DPI and now is ok22:16
Cutterhi, wouldn't it be nice to have a Control Panel rather than menu items?22:20
bsniderthere is one22:20
bsniderif yo want22:20
Cutterin version 8.04?22:21
bsnideryes22:21
Cutterah you mean it has to be installed22:21
bsnidersure it does22:21
Cutteryou mean it's not installed by default?22:22
bsnideryes22:22
bsniderthat is what i mean22:22
Cutterok22:22
bsnidergnome-control-center22:22
bsniderinstall it22:23
CutterI meant it would be nice to have it by default22:23
bsnidervery small diffrernce22:23
CutterI meant it as a suggestion for improvement, not for my personal convenience22:23
Cuttersmall difference as long as you know about it, (and care to search for it)22:24
Cutterbtw will it be possible to create and rearrange menu items as easily as in Windows?22:25
bsniderif you don't want to do any of that work yourself i have the perfect os for you: macosx22:26
CutterMacOS X isn't free, MacOS X isn't compatible with the hardware I am using22:27
bsniderwell, you also have to want to sell your soul to apple22:28
pwnguinCutter: are you familiar with how the menu works currently?22:29
Cutterno, I didn't use ubuntu for a while22:29
Cutterbut last time I tried to add items to the "Places" menu, I failed22:30
pwnguinthere's a menu editor that can add, remove and "hide" stuff. its not direct interaction with the UI itself, but it's at least ther22:30
pwnguinah22:30
pwnguinplaces is a bit special =(22:31
pwnguinif you bring up nautilus, you can add new entries22:31
Cutterthen I will think about filing a brainstorm request about that22:32
Cutter... or vote for it22:32
pwnguinbrainstorm is overrate22:33
pwnguind22:33
Cutterthe "Places" items are somewhere on the HDD as shortcuts?22:33
pwnguinyes22:33
Cutterok22:33
Cutterwhy is brainstorm overrated?22:34
pwnguinyou can just drag and drop folders into the places sidebar in nautilus, and they'll show up everywhere that reads Places22:34
pwnguinbrainstorm is overrated because Ubuntu is mainly a volunteer effort22:34
pwnguinif you ask a bunch of people for ideas, and then totally ignore it22:34
pwnguinthat's a recipe for anger22:35
Cutterdevelopers don't always ignore the ideas22:35
pwnguinyou have to have some way of identifying high value items and get them done22:35
CutterI've seen a few being implemented22:35
pwnguingenerally, most of what i've seen are "we're already doing that"22:36
pwnguinwhich is nice to let people know i guess, but it's not like people sit down and think, "what can i spend the next six months doing for someone else for free?"22:36
pwnguinthe traditional carrots are money and scratching itches22:37
Cutterthat's quite a pessimistic view22:38
pwnguinfor example, i try to make tabletPCs work on Ubuntu (when mine isn't broke)22:38
pwnguinno, its realistic22:38
pwnguinpessmistic would be "nobody will ever do this"22:38
bsniderdon't use tabletpcs22:38
bsnideruse hardware that is known to work22:39
pwnguinwtf22:39
pwnguinnow there's a pessimist22:39
pwnguinrealistic is "people will only fix what they want fixed"22:39
Cutter"realistic" would be realizing that most of the ideas there take a while to satisfy22:39
Cutterfor example "Support for more printers"22:40
pwnguinurl?22:40
Cutteror Support for Tablet PCs22:40
pwnguinlook man, my tabletPC normally works with ubuntu22:40
pwnguinright now my power cord is broke22:40
pwnguini'm a member of the toshiba tablet team22:41
pwnguini didnt need to look at brainstorm to see what other people want22:41
bsniderwhat operating system do tabletpcs normally use?22:42
pwnguintabletPC is a microsoft initiative, but theres nothing fancy about them22:42
bsniderwhy are they useful?22:43
pwnguinwhy the twenty questions?22:43
pwnguini like being able to draw22:43
pwnguini like being able to write22:43
bsnideri'm curious22:43
pwnguini like having less of a "wall" between me and other people when im using my laptop22:44
bsniderwell, what i mean is why would someone use a tabletpc instead of a desktop?22:44
pwnguinthats the wrong question to ask22:45
=== marko_ is now known as marko-_-
pwnguinall the reasons a laptop might be used instead of a desktop also apply22:45
bsniderso why would someone use a tabletpc instead of a laptop?22:46
pwnguini feel like you're trying to tell me im solving the wrong problem22:47
bsniderif you were trying to sell me a tabletpc, how would you do it?22:47
pwnguinwith a website?22:47
bsniderok, say it was in person22:47
bsnideri mean i don't know what a tabletpc is anyway22:47
pwnguinwhy do i need to convince you of the merits?22:48
pwnguinwe can pretend, but im not selling you hardware22:48
bsnideryou don't. i'm not coercing you. i'm simply asking a question22:48
pwnguina tabletPC is basically a touchscreen device22:49
pwnguinusually a laptop with a flip rotate screen22:49
bsnideri see22:49
bsnideri suppose i can see how that would be useful22:50
pwnguinwell im glad ive convinced you that using things is okay22:50
bsnideri never said it wasn't ok22:51
bsnideri said if it doesn't work don't use it22:52
pwnguinwhich is stupid22:52
pwnguinif it doesn't work, fix it!22:52
bsniderare you syaing you've never built a system or bought hardware specifically because it works on linux?22:53
pwnguinjust about22:53
pwnguinthe only thing i bothered looking up was wifi22:53
pwnguinand thankfully, someone else out there didn't sit there in resignation when linux didn't support wifi22:54
bsniderinteresting22:54
pwnguinthey got the hardware, and made it work anyways (madwifi)22:54
bsnideratheros now pays them to develop those drivers22:55
pwnguinyep22:55
bsniderand intel does too22:55
pwnguinand when someone didnt like the HAL22:55
pwnguinthey wrote their own native firmware22:55
bsnidergreat22:55
bsniderwell, if the average person can't do that22:55
bsniderhten buy hardware that actually works22:55
pwnguinwell i guess im not average22:56
bsnidermaybe not22:56
pwnguinand i wish people would stop assuming i was22:56
pwnguin"don't buy that" isn't gonna solve bug #122:56
ubottuLaunchpad bug 1 in ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/122:56
bsnideryes it will22:56
bsniderinvest your money in companies like intel that support the kernel22:57
pwnguinwhat if you dont have money, just an old computer?22:57
bsniderdeprive companies like via that have never heard of linux of money22:57
pwnguinvia hired welte22:57
bsniderputting your money into companies htat care about gnu/linux is all most people need to do22:58
pwnguinits a new world, where you can apparently sue your way into a job ;)22:58
bsniderwell, via's made changes recently22:58
bsnidertheir new driver was released without any community involvement or testing22:59
pwnguinwhy should the general population spend more money than they otherwise would, for nothing that will benefit them directly?23:00
bsniderit does benefit them23:00
bsniderit funds linux23:00
pwnguinwhy's that helpful?23:00
pwnguinto them23:00
pwnguinwhy not fund BSD, or MINIX, or apple?23:01
bsniderand it isn't more money, it's simply researching who's supporting the kernel and who isn't before you buy23:01
pwnguin(or microsoft)23:01
bsniderthey can do that23:01
bsnideri'm talking about people who want to use lniux23:01
pwnguinthen your definition of average person is hilariously off the mark23:01
bsniderwhy, because the average person doesn't do research?23:03
bsniderthey do23:03
pwnguinthe average person doesn't "want to use linux"23:03
pwnguinat best, they want to send their daughter an email, or print a lot of pictures, or other goals than "run linux on a computer"23:04
pwnguinif linux can help, them, and I think it often can, great23:05
bsnidermy point is that people who want to use linux and are average people ie. people who can't write drivers and firmware from scratch, can do their part by giving their money to companies like intel that have heave support for gnu/linux23:05
pwnguinwhat about companies that do support open source, but decide to rewrite the graphics engine to suit their own needs better than a competitor who also supports open source?23:07
bsniderdid they make a better graphics engine?23:08
pwnguinits still unclear, but probably not a substianal benefit relative to the costs incurred time wise23:09
bsniderwell, if that's the case then they screwed up23:10
bsnideri'd use whichever one is best23:10
pwnguinwhat if one was more expensive?23:10
bsniderlike now. i use nvidia's proprietary driver23:10
pwnguinpsh23:10
bsniderthe expense of it is irrelevant23:10
pwnguinif money's no object, i know a few developers who could use living and travel expenses covered23:11
pwnguinanyways, this is massively off topic23:12
pwnguini find my money is better spent fixing my own problems than someone elses23:13
pwnguinwhich is why i contribute testing results to nouveau23:14
pwnguinfile and triage wacom bugs23:14
pwnguinand run development versions of ubuntu on my tablet23:16
bsnideronly problem i have with that is the nouveau thing23:18
pwnguinwhat's wrong with nouveau?23:23
bsniderwhy not submit bugs on nvidia's driver?23:23
pwnguinhave you ever done that?23:24
bsnideryes23:24
pwnguinand it was fixed?23:24
bsniderit's done through their forums using a script23:24
bsnideri suppose they're working on it, but you can go to their linux forum and see bugs that were fixed that way23:25
pwnguina forum makes a poor bug tracker =(23:25
pwnguinas does an email address23:25
pwnguinbut if it works for you23:25
bsnideri'm not arguing that point23:25
pwnguinwe have a pile of bugs you could pick a few from and try to duplicate and report to nvidia23:25
bsniderthe nouveau driver isn't ever going to be a viable alternative to the nvidia driver23:28
pwnguinits already a 90 percent viable alternative to nv23:28
bsniderhahaha23:28
bsniderto nv23:28
bsnideri'm not talking about nv23:28
pwnguini know you werent23:28
bsnideryeah, i thought so23:28
pwnguinthe other 10 percent is waiting for intel to stabilize gem/dri23:29
bsniderwell if intel had used ttm, there wouldn't be a wait would there?23:29
pwnguinwell, RAOF can explain why nouveau will give everyone free candy23:29
Jordan_UOK, this is really odd. When I first boot I see really bad banding in gradients ( especially the heron background image ) as if I am not getting full 24 bit color, but when I take a screenshot ( and display it on another computer ) the banding is not visible, and just to make things even stranger I just found that the banding goes away if I suspend then resume23:30
RAOFJordan_U: That's because you've got an 18bit panel.23:30
RAOFStrange that it goes away after suspend; given that you're suspending, you're obviously using the nvidia driver?23:30
Jordan_URAOF: Sorry, what does that mean?23:31
pwnguinbsnider: and for some purposes, the nvidia driver also sucks. rotate is unaccellerated23:31
Jordan_URAOF: Nope, radeon23:31
bsnideri haven't tried rotate23:31
RAOFJordan_U: Oh, cool.  That means you get to file a bug!23:31
pwnguinbsnider: both my laptop and desktop can rotate23:31
pwnguinand nvidia sucks at it23:31
RAOFJordan_U: Basically, your LCD (in a laptop?) says it supports 8bits per channel, but only supports 6bits per channel.  This is very common.23:32
Jordan_URAOF: Can you please tell me what an 18 but "panel" means so I can better file my report?23:32
bsnideri don't have a monitor that can take advantage of that. but i wish i did23:32
RAOFJordan_U: So the driver needs to dither gradients to make them look less like arse.23:32
pwnguinJordan_U: it means instead of 256 shades of blue, your monitor supports 6423:33
pwnguinand so on23:33
bsniderwow, that sucks23:33
Jordan_URAOF: Yes it's a laptop ( Macbook Pro )23:33
crdlbouch23:33
Jordan_URAOF: Is this common in laptops?23:33
crdlbI'm pretty sure the macbook pros were supposed to have 24-bit displays23:34
RAOFJordan_U: It'll be a 18bit panel.  But I thought macs were one of the (very) few laptops that had proper 24bit panels?23:34
crdlband a lot of pro users are really upset23:34
bsniderRAOF, maybe if he used the ati driver instead23:34
pwnguinRAOF: does dmidecode report this stuff correctly?23:34
crdlbbecause they're really 1823:34
pwnguincrdlb: source?23:34
Jordan_URAOF: How could I check what it really supports / what is really happening?23:35
bsniderhe's right. i read that23:35
RAOFpwnguin: I forget.  The monitors really do report that they're 18bit (generally), because nouveau can detect & turn on dithering.23:35
crdlbhttp://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/05/18/apple_hit_with_class_action_suit_over_macbook_macbook_pro_displays.html23:35
pwnguinwell then, i take back what ive said about apple knowing how to put together quality hardware23:36
bsniderthat was on slashdot too i think23:37
Jordan_URAOF: How can I force dithering?23:39
Cycomhey, anyone know what would cause this error in alacarte? IOError: [Errno 2] No such file or directory: 'alacarte-made.directory'23:39
CycomI'm trying to edit items in alacarte that suddenly lost their icons after installing ubuntustudio23:39
RAOFJordan_U: I'm unsure; 'man radeon' or 'man ati' might give you the magical xorg.conf incantations.23:39
RAOFJordan_U: For nouveau, it's Option "FPDither" "true".  I wouldn't be surprised if it's similar for radeon.23:40
bsnidercheck the catalyst control center23:41
vistakilleri think ibex kubuntu is very good23:58
vistakillerlittle problem from alpha distro23:59

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