[00:03] jameswf-home: oh, I forgot to ask for DEBCONF_DEBUG=developer on the kernel command line, which is usually needed for detailed work here. Still, if it's working fine for you now, no need; I don't see anything obviously wrong in that log now [00:04] cjwatson: The asterisk workd is ownde by RHEL my goal it to chip away from that so hopefully i will get it going good enough to give a base for folks... [00:08] My laptop's [00:09] ACPI is awesome. During hardy development there was a time when it wouldn't boot while plugged in. Now it doesn't boot when it isn't plugged in :) === superm1 is now known as superm1|away [00:13] jameswf-home: good luck :) [00:51] cjwatson: slangasek: either of you around? [00:52] cjwatson: slangasek: if so, i opened a new grub bug, with bzr branch/patch that fixes it, https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/grub/+bug/264160 [00:52] Launchpad bug 264160 in grub "grub-install onto raid device" [Undecided,New] [00:52] cjwatson: slangasek: based on my testing of the latest iso's === superm1|away is now known as superm1 [01:39] man, google chrome's checkout is like 600 megs [01:39] pwnguin, how far back does the history go on it? [01:40] good question [01:40] they have this crazy multi tiered checkout tool [01:40] i have version 1663 [01:41] Does it include a whole lot of modified standard libraries? [01:41] If not, it's no fun. [01:41] Everybody has to include their own modified libs. [01:41] im not sure if they're modified [01:41] i'm mostly curious when they "claim" to have started development with it [01:41] but they also use sqllite [01:41] superm1: its svn; i dont know offhand how to query for the oldest revision [01:42] it's importing into launchpad right now. [01:42] heh [01:42] Could take a while. [01:42] yeah [01:42] it failed the first few times [01:42] i think like half of it is test and data files [01:42] dictionaries for the world [01:43] Hm. [01:43] Why is it owned by the mozillateam? [01:43] Isn't it WebKit? [01:43] it is [01:44] and a crazy 32bit only javascript VM [01:44] mozillateam is really "browser team" these days [01:44] yea. 200 megs of tests [01:45] there apperas to be a reference build in revision control [01:46] Ew. [01:48] Heh. The google data .NET library svn contains not one, but 4 different builds in svn. And a couple of zlib binaires, too. [01:49] im trying to follow their build directions, but it won't take [01:49] i have no src dir [01:58] ah, everyone else is checking out & trying to build chrome too? excellent [02:00] is anyone sure it will even build at this point? I would have assumed if it did they just would have released some binaries for linux too [02:01] 'Although many Chromium submodules build under Linux and a few unit tests pass, all that runs is a command-line "all tests pass" executable.' [02:01] it's not ported yet [02:01] the gui, etc. is all windows only afaict [02:01] they've been using hardy as a development platform for the port though [02:02] which makes getting the right bits in place slightly easier === archis__ is now known as archis [02:18] Hopefully they’ll use native Gtk. === zpowers is now known as Milyardo [05:53] Good morning [05:53] kees: still awake by any chance? [06:50] doko: any idea about the weird libffi4 uninstallability? (it depends on gcc-4.2-base (= 4.2.3-2ubuntu7) ) [06:51] doko: is this a hardcoded binary package version in the gcc-4.2 source package? [06:53] cjwatson: what's necessary to re-include mobile into http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/component-mismatches.txt ? ATM processing the source/binary demotions list is dangerous due to that [06:54] Riddell: desktop-effects-kde wants to go to universe, is that deliberate? [06:54] Riddell: kdebluetooth as well [06:58] pitti: Since ubuntu-{mobile,mid} are in universe, most of the stuff in component-mismatches.txt shouldn't be related to it. [06:59] StevenK: hm, but there's a lot of stuff we moved into main in hardy, which didn't appear in c-m earlier [07:02] pitti: I think we should crowbar them back together, and then I'll be happy to dig out the -m{id,obile} stuff out of it. [07:22] lool: the pygtk FTBFS on amd64 (and others) causes some uninstallability; the error looks weird (segfault during make), I try a giveback [07:23] hello everyone, good morning from istanbul [07:23] annoying intrepid hang, now. [07:24] ogra: ltsp-client now depends on sshfs, but that is in universe; thus ltsp-client is currently uninstallable [07:24] i have intrepid ibex on my computer, i'm an ubuntu for some time. i have a problem in ibex about graphic drivers [07:24] anybody could give me a hand? [07:25] laughtear: Probably, but not in here; Intrepid support lives in #ubuntu+1 [07:25] (i am an ubuntu user, i mean..:)) [07:25] Riddell: once you have a moment, can you please have a look at the kdesdk uninstallability? needs some MIRs or changed dependencies [07:25] all rite, thank you RAOF [07:26] pitti: actually, I am awake -- just got back from a movie. what's up? [07:27] kees: after my holidays I noticed bug 255563 [07:27] Launchpad bug 255563 in sysvinit "Parallel fsck breaks boot when / is being fsck'd" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/255563 [07:27] aah, yeah. [07:27] kees: I haven't done any investigation about it yet, and wondered if you could give me some details what happens here? anything that could help me with a head-start? [07:28] pitti: sure -- I apologize for not digging in but it always happens when I'm in a rush to get back up and booted. :P [07:28] the usplash/fsck scripts didn't change since hardy, so either something else in intrepid changed, or we have that grave problem in hardy too [07:28] pitti: I suspect fsck has changed [07:28] kees: don't worry, I'm not trying to shove it off to you [07:28] pitti: I have about 6 ext3 partitions [07:28] kees: I just wondered whether you know anything about the problem, i. e. how to reproduce it [07:29] just having e. g. /var and /usr on a separate partition and having them all fsck'ed will do? [07:29] that'd be easy enough to do in a vm [07:29] pitti: they're all mounted at boot-time, and when one of the later ones (not root) needs fscking, the fsck init line goes by very quickly (showing "fail", I think, though it might be the mountall). [07:29] ogra: ah, nevermind, there's an approved MIR for it [07:30] when I come up, a fsck is still running, and I'm missing one of my partitions (since it's being fscked) [07:30] kees: eww, *all* mounted? [07:30] pitti: all but the fsck'd one mounted, yeah [07:30] AFAIR it should be checkroot - mountroot - checkfs - mountother [07:31] kees: so the problem is that the usplash scripts don't wait for the fsck to finish, because it forks off some to the background? [07:31] right, so checkfs happens quickly and exits, and then mountother runs, but one of the partitions isn't available since fsck is still running on it. [07:31] pitti: right, something along those lines [07:32] though I have to say, it's been kind of nice to only fsck one partition per boot. ;) [07:34] * StevenK glares at pygtk [07:34] kees: ok, then the right solution is to properly wait [07:35] pitti: right, I assume that's what's going on. [07:35] kees: do you happen to know, does that only affect the usplash part, or the text-only mode as well? [07:36] good morning [07:36] pitti: I didn't try booting without usplash. [07:36] kees: ok, thanks a lot for the heads-up; I'll try it in a VM then, but this gives me something to work on [07:36] * pitti hugs dholbach, morning [07:36] hi pitti :) [07:36] * dholbach hugs pitti back [07:36] pitti: cool, thanks. [07:37] dholbach: thanks for another great mix. I was enjoying it earlier today. :) [07:37] thanks a lot for the flowers, kees :-) [07:38] kees: it's been a while since the last one and it was a good opportunity to plug one of the pictures from India ;-) [07:38] hehe, I never know what that means. :) [07:38] kees: what what means? [07:38] dholbach: "thanks for the flowers" [07:38] oh... you don't say that in English? [07:38] it's just thanking for a compliment :) [07:39] dholbach: well, it's not a phrase I've heard before, but intent is clear. I'm always just momentarily confused. :) [07:39] well ... thanks :-) [07:39] regardless, I need to start saying that to people. :) [07:40] hehe [07:40] So you can share your confusion? [07:40] say, anyone else on 64bit with sane flash in firefox? [07:40] and I need to write that blog post I about India I promised [07:40] StevenK: 'zactly [07:40] kees: I'm on 64bit with sane flash. Read as, no flash. [07:40] kees: Does the definition of "sane" exclude "opens one decorated window per embedded flash object per page transition"? [07:40] StevenK: heh. I guess I should clarify. :) [07:41] RAOF: oh god, yes, I hope so. [07:41] RAOF: but yeah, that's what I'm seeing. [07:41] That excludes my flash experience, then :) [07:41] RAOF: I've done exactly 0 bug hunting, but figured I'd just ask since I was just now staring at a mess of them on my task bar. [07:42] * RAOF doesn't actually use a task bar. [07:42] They're a nspluginwrapper bug, IIRC. [07:42] kees: Thinking, "Oh damn it, they're breeding" ? [07:43] RAOF: yeah, that'd make sense. I'll go dig [07:44] StevenK: yeah, or "I couldn't possibly be the only person annoyed by this" [07:44] It's not _substantially_ more annoying than the standard flash behaviour ;) [07:44] at least swfdec doesn't auto-start them. :P [07:45] waaait... it couldn't be nspluginwrapper [07:45] that doesn't apply for swfdec [07:45] Yeah! That's right. I noticed that. I blame 6am. [07:46] I forget if gnash does it, too. [07:46] * kees eyeballs firefox === superm1 is now known as superm1|away [07:49] For what it's worth, banshee(trunk) seems to be having problems embedding its NowPlaying window, too. [07:49] That's not unlikely to be unrelated, though. === sabdfl is now known as sabdfl_home [07:50] is the publisher stuck? [07:51] lool: nope, failed again [07:51] ff3 built 17 hours ago, but is not in the archive. https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox-3.0/3.0.2+build3+nobinonly-0ubuntu1/+build/706678 http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/main/f/firefox-3.0/ [07:51] kees: looks fine here === tkamppeter_ is now known as tkamppeter [07:52] kees: ffox is in binary NEW [07:52] pitti: Aaaaah [07:52] RAOF: which channel we were? [07:53] RAOF: for intrepid help? [07:53] pitti: what caused that? the translations? [07:53] kees: there are some split-out -branding packages [07:53] laughtear: #ubuntu+1 [07:54] pitti: ah! I didn't open the arrow. I see it now. nm. [07:57] asac: I find the {firefox,webbrowser}-branding packages very confusing TBH; what's the idea of this? [07:58] asac: also, the package descriptions make it worse; webbrowser-3.0-branding is not a metapackage, talks about "The Awesome Browser", is called "-branding", and describes itself as "unbranded firefox" [08:07] * kees -> really to bed === slangasek changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: archive: main frozen for alpha 5, feature freeze in place | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/feisty/gutsy/hardy, #ubuntu+1 for intrepid | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs [08:26] pitti, hi [08:28] Hm. For want of a depgraph tool [08:28] StevenK: apt-cache dotty ? [08:28] pitti: Could you make sure it's building against -0ubuntu3? [08:28] Yeah, /me wrote a build-deps dotty generator and later discovered apt-cache dotty :) [08:28] * StevenK fights his machine for some CPU time [08:28] lool: Hah. Now fix pygtk! [08:29] * StevenK cracks a whip [08:29] lpia: Successfully built. [08:29] What makes you think I was talking about lpia? :-) [08:29] I was thinking you could only be using lpia binaries! [08:30] pitti: (I built it on amd64 on my host before uploading yesterday) [08:30] ogra: did you ever submit an MIR for libaubio-dev? (denemo 0.7.7-3.1ubuntu1 changelog, from May) [08:31] lool: I have a soft spot for amd64 [08:31] Weird, it's -0ubuntu3 in the buildd's log as well [08:31] So I care about i386, amd64 and lpia [08:38] pitti: Looks like a xvfb issue [08:38] Xlib: extension "RANDR" missing on display ":99.0". [08:39] Gtk-WARNING **: Could not find the icon 'drive-optical'. The 'hicolor' theme [08:39] It's not clear to me whether these are fatal [08:39] I get the Xlib ones [08:39] hi tkamppeter [08:39] I don't get the icon wqrning [08:40] what is broken? [08:41] seb128: The testsuite failed; I'm trying to understand what bdep to add if any, otherwise I'll ignore its results [08:41] it built on i386 [08:41] Indeed [08:41] maybe just give it a build retry? [08:41] but that's weird [08:41] seb128: pitti did [08:42] yep, didn't work [08:42] it also failed on sparc and ia64 with the same error [08:43] slangasek: for the record, I cleaned up some uninstallabilities and component mismatches, going through the MIR queue now [08:43] slangasek: dailies should be there by now, I'll give them a smoke test [08:44] slangasek: time to disable the cd cron jobs then? [08:44] pitti: great, thanks [08:44] slangasek: btw thanks for not moving the GNOME sru I asked about before going in holidays :-p [08:46] Oh I wonder whether it's trying to display some filechooser object which needs the drive-optical command to work [08:46] Because these buildds have an optical drive [08:46] pitti, I have seen another small problem of our PDF-printing-enabled CUPS package: The CUPS test page (not the Ubuntu test pages, the original CUPS test pages) got incompatible. See bug 263049 [08:46] Launchpad bug 263049 in system-config-printer "CUPS test page not suitable for PDF printing workflow, needs to be replaced" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/263049 [08:47] tkamppeter: ah, needs to become a PDF now? [08:47] pitti: well, we probably want to get a full set of images for today; whether cronned or by hand makes no difference to me [08:47] seb128: mm, sorry, just keeping up with intrepid took up my time and I never got a chance to push SRUs out to -updates :/ [08:47] slangasek: I'll leave that to you, just asking how you generally handle that [08:47] slangasek, no, i didnt file a request for aubio since persia and LaserJock cornered me to decide about the other missing deps ... [08:48] ogra: sorry, what are the other missing deps? [08:48] slangasek: alright, no problem ;-) [08:48] pitti, yes, and as PDF is no programming language, it cannot contain margins and resolution info any more. [08:48] slangasek, there are more changes in the recent debian version [08:48] ogra: but that doesn't seem to be relevant for intrepid? [08:48] hmm [08:48] i didnt think abut it that way [08:48] tkamppeter: can we convert it to PDF on build time, so that we don't need to change upstream? [08:49] seb128: I wonder whether we should recommend gnome-icon-theme in libgtk or pygtk in this light [08:49] I'll push a package adding it only as a bdep for now [08:49] ogra: well, we're past FF and well past DIF, so right now I only care about MIRs for the /current/ build-deps ;) [08:49] lool: I was just going to suggest that [08:50] slangasek, true but there is still a newer package in debian and for universe i could rather easily get a FF exception .... so i still need to decide if we stick with something old in main to have a scoreeditor in edubuntu or not [08:50] pitti, but then the data on the test page would be completely wrong. [08:50] lool: btw you didn't push glib 2.18 to debian? [08:51] ogra: oh, well if you're considering demoting it to universe that's fine with me (--> not my problem anymore ;) [08:51] tkamppeter: alternatively, can we make it use the ubuntu test page everywhere? [08:51] slangasek, i'll have that decided (and potential MIRs written) by the end of my workday, does that suffice ? [08:52] pitti, I think this would be the better approach. For Debian one could perhaps also use the Ubuntu page but with a Debian logo inserted into it. [08:52] (i'm a bi under load with some private errands this morning) [08:52] *bit [08:52] tkamppeter: oh, hang on, right, the ubuntu test page is in s-c-p, not cups, right? [08:52] pitti, yes, I think so. [08:53] seb128: No I wanted to run it first; I ran it overnight and my system is still up so I'll upload it now [08:53] lool: ok thanks, did you try on debian or intrepid? [08:53] tkamppeter: nevertheless, I don't think the page would be completely wrong, it's just saying "postscript" which is not really true any more [08:53] On intrepid [08:53] alright, so I can sync it directly ;-) [08:54] I would have built and tested it there otherwise [08:54] hanks [08:54] thanks [08:54] brb [08:54] tkamppeter: also, why doesn't it work? cups must still be able to print a postscript document and convert it to pdf on the fly? [08:55] ogra: that's plenty fast, sure; I'm just going through the out-of-date list for main, I don't expect to get these all done in time for alpha-5 [08:55] pitti, the CUPS test page contains paper size, margins, resolution, interpreter name, and serial number. This shows all completely wrong if we statically convert it to PDF. [08:55] right, that's dynamically created, just saw it [08:55] tkamppeter: so, why not just keep the .ps for now? [08:57] pitti, CUPS is capable of converting normal PS files to PDF, but the dynamically created data in the CUPS test page is only created correctly if the interpreter directly rasterizes to the printer. [08:58] tkamppeter: which parts are wrong? [09:01] pitti, display the CUPS test page, /usr/share/cups/data/testprint.ps on the screen. It gives you some default page size and a resolution of between 72 and 100 dpi and GPL GS as the interpreter (see the two boxes in the middle). [09:01] tkamppeter: I did that, yes === sabdf1 is now known as sabdfl [09:02] tkamppeter: but if yuo print to a printer through the filter chain, it should still get the correct target dpi, and all that, no? [09:02] lool: pygobject 2.15.4 available with your fix btw (and an another change too) [09:03] pitti, convert the test page to PDF with the ps2pdf command. Display this on the screen. You get for sure a much higher value shown as resolution, between 600 and 720 dpi. [09:03] tkamppeter: I get 720, yes [09:04] pitti, the printer prints it always in the user-requested (or ptinter-native) resolution, as the PDF file is vector graphics. What is wrong is the resolution value in the info box and this iritates users. [09:05] tkamppeter: that still sounds weird to me; shouldn't resolution be propagated through the cups filter chain? [09:05] at some point the last filter needs to know it at least [09:07] pitti, one can fake in at least the right resolution (which one can get from the PPD and/or command line): ps2pdf -r600 /usr/share/cups/data/testprint.ps [09:07] tkamppeter: exactly [09:11] pitti, any idea how to fake in the margins? [09:11] tkamppeter: same Q as for resolution -- the papersize needs to be propagated through the filters, isn't that done? [09:12] if I just run ps2pdf I get letter [09:12] I shuold get A4 at least when I actually print something [09:12] but since cups has a wrapper around ps2pdf, I guess that will/should take care of paper size as well? [09:13] pitti, the biggest problem are the interpreter name and printer serial number. You cannot make the pstopdf filter read this out of a PostScript printer. Perhaps we need to patch these fields out of the test page. [09:13] tkamppeter: right, that should be fine (patching out of the ps) [09:14] they are largely uninteresting for the purposes of a test page; the paper size and margins matter most, IMHO [09:14] pitti, paper size is no problem, run ps2pdf with -sPAPERSIZE=a4 or better with -dDEVICEWIDTHPOINTS=XXX -dDEVICEHEIGHTPOINTS=YYY [09:16] ion_, are you here? [09:19] pitti, ion_, we can also make the conversion cleaner if the pstopdf filter propagates page size, margins, and resolution to the conversion process. Imaging a PS file without well-defined page size or wrong page size is sent. The conversion process could correct the situation. [09:19] pitti: pygtk amd64: Successfully built. [09:20] lool: hm, I wonder what's different on your system [09:20] pitti: I don't have an optical drive [09:20] lool: and the buildd has one? [09:20] It seems so :) [09:20] and that breaks pygtk build? WTH? [09:20] That icon name I mentionned earlier is probably needed to display a filechooser during the tests [09:21] It's certainly a bug in pygtk or gtk for having a dependency on this and the package not having a corresponding dep, or for the testsuite to fail on warnings if it's only a warning [09:21] hm, that does sound kind of relevant for pygtk, thuogh [09:22] lool: fail on warnings? I saw a segfault there, which seems more serious? [09:22] pitti: Not sure when you saw a segfault [09:22] pitti: Perhaps a build against pygobject -0ubuntu2? [09:22] lool: the previous amd64 build log had one, hang on, I'm checking the current one [09:22] oh, hang on, it built now? [09:23] Yes [09:23] didn't I just see it FTBFS? maybe someone gave it back again [09:23] I uploaded it with a gnome-icon-theme bdep [09:23] (for the optical drive) [09:24] pitti: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/17256244/buildlog_ubuntu-intrepid-amd64.pygtk_2.13.0-0ubuntu1_FAILEDTOBUILD.txt.gz [09:24] pitti: that was the build error [09:25] seb128: I think pitti also saw a segfault in the previous log [09:25] Quite probably because pygtk built against pygobject << -0ubuntu3 [09:25] lool: let's pretend that one was a transitionnal issue ;-) [09:25] seb128: I'll leave the new pygobject upstream to you if you like; I don't think it adds anything for us [09:26] right [09:26] lool: right we can skip this update [09:26] lool: did you upload glib2.0? [09:26] seb128: Yes, you can sync it from incoming in a couple of minutes [09:27] lool: I'm wondering if you had a perfect timing and uploaded just before the dinstall run or if it's just not listed in incoming yet [09:27] lool: ok good [09:27] I uploaded 3 minutes ago, it will show up soon [09:27] excellent, thanks [09:31] brb [09:43] pitti: how's the smoke testing? [09:43] slangasek: just finished rsyncing, alternate and desktop just booting [09:43] ok [10:03] pitti, ion_, bug 263049 is now updated. [10:03] Launchpad bug 263049 in system-config-printer "CUPS test page does not display correct print job data. pstopdf filter needs improvements, test page needs some changes" [Medium,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/263049 [10:12] pitti: did you look at the ffox NEW packages yet? [10:12] asac: yes, see my questions above [10:12] pitti: those are bugs ... no need to keep this out tbh [10:13] pitti: i am bad at writing descriptions [10:13] asac: right, the bad package descriptions are bugs, but I'd still like to understand the purpose, and why the webbrowser deb has "awesome-browser-*' files [10:14] and IMHO the names of the packages are highly confusing; we should make them more clear, which is why I didn't accept them yet [10:14] pitti: what is confusing about the packages [10:14] ? [10:14] pitti: the packagename is a generic name, because we want to provide a free branding without any trademarks [10:15] pitti: the "awesome" branding is just a code name for the branding directory i used during development [10:15] pitti: it will disappear from the description [10:15] asac: still, why should a package named -branding give you an unbranded firefox? [10:16] asac: as I said, I have *no* idea how the structure *shuold* be, maybe you can tell me? [10:16] pitti: you cannot have an unbranded browser [10:16] pitti: just a browser with a "generic" branding [10:16] also, I refuse to accept a package which is called "webbrowser" [10:17] that's namespace pollution [10:18] if the idea is to take out the ubuntu branding from firefox, then there should be an unbranded firefox-3.0 (representing upstream) and a firefox-3.0-ubuntu-branding which has our changes [10:18] just calling it -branding doesn't help, since it doesn't tell you *what* branding, so derivatives cannot use the same schema [10:19] pitti: derivitaves can just remove the firefox-3.0-branding packages. [10:19] or dont sync them [10:19] firefox-3.0-branding == firefox branding [10:20] doesn't work, since they are built from teh same source [10:20] pitti: dont understand. there are 2 things here: 1st. people can just sync the binary bits they want [10:20] asac: ah, so firefox-3.0-branding is the upstream original, while webbrowser-3.0-branding should really be firefox-3.0-ubuntu-branding ? [10:20] seb128: glib is in incoming [10:20] lool: it's in intrepid too ;-) [10:20] pitti: no ... firefox-3.0-ubuntu-branding isnt nice [10:20] it suggests that its ubuntu [10:21] lool: just synced like 15 seconds ago, but thanks for the notice ;-) [10:21] well, what is it then? [10:21] we dont want that word to reside there [10:21] Ok, didn't show up in rmadison yet [10:21] lool: rmadison has a ~ 6 hour lag [10:21] pitti: its a webbrowser branding which is completely generic and not trademark encumbered [10:22] asac: it's not a webbrowser branding, it's at most a mozilla or firefox branding [10:22] (firefox, according to the .deb contents) [10:22] asac: firefox-3.0-generic-branding? [10:23] ./usr/lib/firefox-3.0.2/chrome/awesome-branding-en-US.jar [10:23] and that's not really helpful to either users, developers, or derivatives [10:24] pitti: I'm turning in for a few hours of sleep before the foundations meeting; if those images pass the smoke test, can you post the candidates to the tracker? [10:24] slangasek: yes, I will [10:30] lool: the generic branding specifically isn't called "firefox" [10:30] pitti: filenames / directories and such are not covered by trademarks as far as we understand [10:31] Is it really as generic as webbrowser? [10:31] wgrant: no [10:31] pitti: so its helpful if derivatives want to sync from us, they can just leave the firefox-3.0-branding aside [10:31] wgrant: in the user interface, it winds up just being called "Web Browser" [10:31] asac: right, but then the package name should explain what it is and avoid confusing/buzz names like "awesome" and "webbrowser" [10:32] pitti: package name and filenames that might be confusing can be (and will be) fixed. [10:32] pitti: can you suggest one that doesn't include "firefox"? We discussed this for quite a while and this was the best we could come up with [10:32] pitti: err package description [10:32] asac: fixing file names is fine, fixing package names is harder [10:32] since it requires transitional packages, conflicts, etc. [10:32] pitti: i misread (description) [10:32] pitti: mobile> you mean consolidating component-mismatches and component-mismatches-mobile? [10:32] cjwatson: if I would know the purpose of this package, then yes; AFAICS, it contains a neutral branding theme for firefox [10:33] cjwatson: c-m> I faintly remembered that you said you temporarily removed the mobile seeds from c-m [10:33] pitti: the idea is that we get to the point where any distribution can just drop firefox and firefox-3.0-branding package [10:34] and then dont have any trademark issues anymore [10:34] pitti: the full list is in c-m-mobile [10:34] cjwatson: if the current lists are in the intended state, I'll consult c-m-mobile for demotions [10:34] (sorry, bad naming) [10:34] Can the Firefox branding then be appropriately moved to restricted? [10:34] cjwatson: ok, thanks [10:34] wgrant: please see the Ubuntu licensing policy. non-code is handled case-by-case so the Firefox branding doesn't necessarily have to be in restricted. [10:35] cjwatson: It seems odd to have something that clearly cannot be modified in main when it's easily movable to restricted. [10:36] it can be modified, just within certain parameters [10:36] That sounds non-free to me. [10:36] pitti: whatever name you choose, downstreams will have to rename it ... either they dont like "iceweasel", or they dont like "supercoolthing" ... or whatever we choose. The best solution after lots of thought that came out is just to call it webbrowser [10:37] it *could* be moved to restricted, perhaps; and it might make sense. I object to you implying that it's required by our policy when it isn't, though. [10:37] wgrant: yes. [10:37] asac: iceweasel is a proper noun, whereas webbrowser is a program category where dozens of alternatives exists [10:37] Policy might not state it, but common sense seems to. [10:37] asac: I wouldn't mind if you just call it iceweasel or vanilla-webbrowser, but not just 'webbrowser' [10:40] I like vanilla-webbrowser [10:41] I wouldn't mind the firefox branding going into restricted. It's just not a bug that it's in main and I wanted to make that clear. [10:41] does that mean that the browser with branding should be called kinky-webbrowser? [10:41] *cough* [10:41] I would s/vanilla/plain/ [10:42] i just want to prevent endless discussions of names ... thats why webbrowser makes sense - where the discussion is mostly about "is it ok to use that" and not "is it a good name" [10:42] another idea: [10:42] could firefox-3.0 ship the generic branding, and if you install firefox-3.0-branding, that would give yuo the firefox one? [10:42] cjwatson: I don't see where in the license policy unmodifiable code is permitted. [10:43] thereby removing the need for a new "plain" package name at all? [10:43] pitti: that was the way it was in a previous prototype. [10:43] pitti: the point is that you still want a "webbrowser-3.0-branding" package, that forces the firefox branding off the disc imo [10:43] wgrant: where's the unmodifiable code in the branding? [10:44] I thought the unmodifiable parts were basically images [10:44] cjwatson: So it's fine if the code is GPL but I can't modify it because of the trademark restrictions? [10:44] asac: uninstall firefox-3.0-branding ? [10:44] GPL/$(various other free licenses) [10:44] pitti: yeah. but then you end up in upgrade issues ... people now using firefox suddenly loos their branding [10:45] i had recommends on the -branding package ... but that didnt work well enough in upgradfe case [10:47] asac: firefox depends: firefox-base, firefox-branding, firefox-base recommends: firefox-branding, ubuntu-desktop depends; firefox-base [10:47] wouldn't that work? [10:48] s/;/:/ [10:48] pitti: ubuntu-desktop DEPENDS firefox-base? [10:48] thought that its a recommend [10:48] asac: well, or recommends, whatever u-desktop does right now [10:49] pitti: remember we have firefox -> firefox-3.0 [10:49] since webbrowser-3.0-branding depends: firefox-3.0, we won't get rid of the 'firefox-3.0' package name anyway [10:49] asac: yes, it was just a schema, not the real package names [10:50] wgrant: while I'm not entirely happy about this, general practice has been that we only consider items enforced by copyright law when assessing freedom, since you could always change the name to avoid the trademark. While I'm not sure there's a clause specifically about this in the Ubuntu licensing policy, the parent DFSG has a comment in point #4: "The license may require derived works to carry a different name or ... [10:50] ... version number from the original software. (This is a compromise. The Debian group encourages all authors not to restrict any files, source or binary, from being modified.)" [10:54] pitti: i thought about it ... it doesnt really work for downstreams [10:54] pitti: they dont have a similar vehicle that "firefox" is [10:54] e.g. that tracks them over over upstream version bumps [10:55] asac: we mainly need 'firefox' for clean upgrades, so downstreams just have to provide that, too; or do you mean something else? [10:55]