/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/09/04/#ubuntu-devel.txt

emgent`nlheya00:10
kirklandslangasek: ping00:10
slangasekkirkland: moo00:12
kirklandslangasek: hiya, i have a small grub-installer patch that I'd really, really like to see on the next iso's...00:13
kirklandslangasek: http://people.ubuntu.com/~kirkland/grub-installer/grub-installer.debdiff00:13
kirklandslangasek: seeing as the freeze and all, i thought i might bump your direction00:14
slangasekkirkland: well, currently the "next isos" are slated to be the ones /after/ alpha-500:14
kirklandslangasek: oh...  are we under a freeze right now?00:14
slangasekkirkland: no bug number; can you explain here what's broken?00:14
slangasekkirkland: yes, alpha-5 tomorrow00:14
kirklandslangasek: refresh http://people.ubuntu.com/~kirkland/grub-installer/grub-installer.debdiff00:16
kirklandslangasek: bug number inserted00:16
kirklandslangasek: the grub install multiple MBRs to a RAID mirror is not working as designed, because my previous patch was calling findfs()00:16
kirklandslangasek: that finds the filesystem, not the device00:16
slangasekah00:17
kirklandslangasek: what i needed to call was mapdevfs()00:17
slangasekby "filesystem", I guess you mean "mount point"?00:17
kirklandslangasek: right, misread on my part by what those functions did00:17
slangasekok00:17
kirklandslangasek: turns out the determination i need is actually already done further up in the code00:17
slangasekif we aren't yet advertising this as a feature of alpha-5, I think it's better to hold it until after tomorrow00:17
kirklandslangasek: bootfs_nodevfs=$(mapdevfs $bootfs)00:17
slangasekbut I'm happy to upload it then00:18
kirklandslangasek: okay00:18
kirklandslangasek: it will make it into the next daily iso build in that case?00:18
slangasekyes00:18
kirklandslangasek: I don't particularly care where it's in alphaX ...  just that i get an iso soon with the updated udeb that I can test00:18
slangasekcan you post the debdiff to the bug, and subscribe me?00:18
kirklandslangasek: sure, i'll do the bzr branch monkey business too00:19
slangasekeven better :)00:19
kirklandslangasek: or perhaps not...  bzr is not responding atm, something about an upgrade, perhaps00:23
ericholscherwhen is the package freeze for 8.10?00:49
slangasekericholscher: there's no freeze that we refer to as a "package freeze"; we're currently in Feature Freeze, meaning that package changes for introducing new features, instead of for fixing bugs, need to be approved00:53
Spetshttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseSchedule00:53
ericholscherokay00:53
slangasekericholscher: django 1.0 is on my radar, fwiw00:54
ericholscherojay ;)00:54
ericholscherokay*00:54
ericholscherthanks much for reading my mind :)00:55
slangasekwell, your channel list, but ok ;)00:55
slangasek(plus, people coming into the channel within an hour of the django 1.0 release and asking about freezes makes it easy to guess, don't it?)00:56
loolhaha00:58
loolslangasek: Heh can i get Chrome in intrepid?00:58
jcristauslangasek: pfft. you mean within an hour of the xserver 1.5 release.00:58
slangaseklool: twitch00:58
slangasekjcristau: is there anyone I don't know by name who would be asking for an xserver 1.5 freeze exception? :00:59
slangasek)00:59
jcristauslangasek: ok, probably not00:59
ScottKslangasek: There's already a bug open asking motu-release for an FFe for django 1.0.  My response up until now has been wait until it's released.03:16
=== NCommander is now known as NC|Elmor_Fudd
=== NC|Elmor_Fudd is now known as NCommander
slangasekScottK: yep, saw it :)04:20
=== superm1|away is now known as superm1
slangasekScottK: a python-django freeze exception has already been requested for lenny, on the Debian side, so it should be available pretty soon...05:07
ScottKslangasek: Trunk in the DPMT svn has already been at least partially updated.05:08
* NCommander needs to request a freeze exception for swfdec so we can get a new upstream version in05:21
RAOFNCommander: Did'nt I see 0.7.4 in intrepid-changes this morning?05:22
NCommanderOh, it might have just gotten updated05:23
NCommanderI didn't check yet05:23
NCommander(I just noted that there was a new upstream out, I didn't see if it was packaged yet)05:23
wgrantHmmm. Did something change with font antialiasing over the past 24 hours or so.05:59
RAOFI think it might have, yes.  And for the worse.06:00
philwyettwgrant: Text in dialog boxes, specifically file text?06:08
wgrantphilwyett: Specifically every bit of text.06:11
philwyettwgrant: Not got that many issues text issues.06:11
wgrantFirefox and Thunderbird are almost painful to look at.06:12
philwyettnvidia driver and display configuration is broken. However I am going to do an Alpha 5 install before reporting up to 20 bugs. :-/06:12
RAOFI think this might be different between the nouveau/nvidia cases.06:14
philwyettI am on nv and have one set of issues. Installing nvidia 177 driver an doing 2 reboots to get it to activate, I then have a whole set of new issues. :-D06:19
philwyettInstalling the nvidia driver on one box this morning did not call for reboot as it should :-/06:20
RAOFWhy should it call for a reboot?06:21
philwyettInstall requires requires a a reload of X and it is done via reboot thrugh the restricted drivers desktop app. Or always has done before now. :-)06:22
philwyett-requires06:23
RAOFJust logging out is sufficient ;)06:23
philwyettI know this.06:23
RAOFOr, at least, should be now.06:23
philwyettBut the app doesn't even tell you that!06:24
philwyettDoing the updates this morning. After I decided quick reboot as two X components had been updated (just be cautious). Going for a reboot just restarted X the first time. This is why I am waiting for Alpha 5 and do a fresh install and look at the cases I have collected before reporting things and creating bugmail.06:27
pittiGood morning07:11
_Genius_quiero colaborar con el proyecto ubuntu07:47
_Genius_programo en C/C++07:47
_Genius_help07:47
_Genius_:(07:48
lifeless_Genius_: check the topic:07:49
lifeless Development of Ubuntu (not support, not application development on Ubuntu)07:49
=== RAOF_ is now known as RAOF
=== tkamppeter_ is now known as tkamppeter
dholbachgood morning07:57
persia_Genius_: Also, you may find that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ContributeToUbuntu answers most of your questions, and that the rest are better asked in English in #ubuntu-motu07:57
NCommanderpersia, as an aside, did the TB (or was it MC) determine if the AGPL is free or non-free?08:00
persiaNCommander: Generally license freeness falls to the archive-admins, although it might be escalated to the TB in questionable cases.08:01
persiaI've not heard of any determination in one way or the other for AGPL08:01
NCommanderpersia, I heard it went to the TB, obviously they can't come to a conclusion08:02
persiaNCommander: I wouldn't come to that conclusion, but rather that if it went to the TB, it has yet to appear on the agenda for a TB meeting, and so may be in queue for deliberation.08:02
NCommanderah08:03
* NCommander decides to blog08:03
slangasekis that last sentence in some way connected to the preceding ones?08:06
cjwatsonI believe somebody did ask the TB before bothering to wait for a determination from ubuntu-archive, yes08:12
mdkefwiw, Mark and mdz have both expressed the view that it is free08:13
persiaRaw foolishness and impatience.  Best to wait until there is an AGPL package uploaded, and see in which component it ends up in as the result of NEW.08:14
mdkethe CC and TB were approached after the individual apparently discussed the issue with MOTU but couldn't get to a conclusion. He was obviously not told about that potential procedure08:15
cjwatsonin the last shallow analysis I did, it looked like it was probably free but that there were some practical concerns and wording problems with the licence08:15
mdkeor if he was, he skipped it :)08:15
cjwatsonbut that's not an Official Statement08:15
mdkewell, Mark and mdz form a majority of the TB, so I suspect that's enough to decide the issue. But if people have concerns about the licence that are enough to warrant potential exclusion from main, then it's worth bringing them to the TB's attention08:17
NCommandercjwatson, so how are you doing tonight?08:19
cjwatsonundercaffeinated08:22
NCommandercjwatson, sounds about right. I'm currently rebootstrapping Ubuntu from scratch08:25
NCommander(at some point, the insanity of it all will kick in)08:25
pittiScottK: can you please seed clamav and spamassassin, so that they don't generate a lot of noise in component-mismatches? TIA08:26
sorenpitti: Wow, they've been promoted already? Neat.08:29
pittijust finished the review, yes08:29
pittiit's really s/ScottK/server team/, so whoever feels like it, please go ahead08:29
gnomefreakanyone know if we added/removed support for "intex rtl8139D" nic from kernel?08:30
mdkecjwatson: I've copied ubuntu-archive into that agpl thread, so if you push my email through the moderation queue, they can chip in on it08:30
cjwatsonmeh, wonder why bug 264337 is happening08:30
ubottuLaunchpad bug 264337 in oem-config "OEM Installation - oem-config-prepare icon not the desktop" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26433708:30
cjwatsonmdke: ok08:30
pittibryce: please add screen-resolution-extra to the ubuntu desktop seed08:37
pittibryce: or make it a dependency of something adequate, whatever is more suitable08:38
brycepitti, I don't actually know how to add stuff to a seed, but I can add it as a dependency08:39
pittibryce: well, I can help yuo with the seeding; but let's first discuss which is better08:39
pittibryce: which package shuold depend on it?08:39
brycegnome-control-center.08:39
pittiI guess it isn't called from the menus, but from the xrandr capplet?08:40
pittiright08:40
pittithat makes sense then08:40
brycecorrect; I've already uploaded the patch that calls the s-r-e script if it exists08:40
sorencjwatson: Would I be abusing germinate's blacklisting functionality if I just want to add all the binaries from a single source package bar a single one? "%clamav + !clamav-milter" looks a lot nicer than listing the 9 "good" packages from clamav.08:40
slangaseksoren: I immediately have to wonder why blacklisting anything is required, instead of just seeding clamav-milter08:45
pittisoren: you certainly shouldn't explicitly seed its dependencies08:45
pittisoren: i. e. you should never seed something like libclam408:46
slangasekoh, that's to blacklist clamav-milter?08:46
* slangasek stands on his head08:46
seb128pitti: hum, apport is buggy apparently, it doesn't tag crasher for retracing08:46
* NCommander takes pictures of slangasek on his head08:46
NCommandergood morning slangasek08:46
pittisoren: seeding clamav will pull in libclamav, clamav-freshclam, etc.08:46
NCommanderhow goes it?08:46
seb128pitti: see bug #264301 bug #264360 bug #26436208:47
pittiseb128: ugh08:47
ubottuLaunchpad bug 264301 in update-manager "update-manager crashed with SIGSEGV in gtk_scrolled_window_unset_placement@plt()" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26430108:47
ubottuLaunchpad bug 264360 in apport "apport-gtk crashed with SIGSEGV in gtk_scrolled_window_unset_placement@plt()" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26436008:47
ubottuLaunchpad bug 264362 in gui-ufw "gufw.py crashed with SIGSEGV in gtk_scrolled_window_unset_placement@plt()" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26436208:47
slangasekNCommander: well enough, though I'm led to suspect that you're deliberately using timezone-inappropriate greetings08:47
seb128pitti: they are nowhere in the retracer logs so I think they didn't get tagged at all08:47
seb128hey NCommander08:47
NCommanderslangasek, I just don't support i18n natively yet08:47
NCommanderhola seb12808:48
seb128pitti: should I manually tag those or do you want to have a look first?08:48
pittiseb128: I have a look first08:48
pittiseb128: it does have apport-crash, so in general tagging seems to work08:48
NCommanderseb128, so how goes your $TIME_OF_DAY08:48
seb128NCommander: good, waking up and having coffee08:48
seb128pitti: that's worth noting that those are crashes in python applications, not sure if that makes a difference08:49
NCommanderseb128, nice, I need to get some sleep, I've been rebuilding Ubuntu's base packages manually so I'm starting to loose my mind08:49
seb128lol08:49
seb128NCommander: 'night ;-)08:49
seb128NCommander: btw how is the gtkmm 2.13 update going? ;-)08:50
NCommanderseb128, not yet, I still need to wait for my statically linked GCC to finish08:50
NCommanderseb128, still waiting on pangomm ;-)08:50
pittiseb128: improbable, but possible, of course08:50
seb128NCommander: did you open the upstream bug about the license? and you have pangomm locally so nothing prevent you to work on the update so it can be uploaded when pangomm is accepted08:50
NCommanderseb128, I have it locally, and let me file the bug first08:50
NCommanderseb128, I've discovered the absolute "joy" of bootstrapping Ubuntu from scratch08:51
pittiseb128: oh, crap, I got it08:52
pittiPackageArchitecture: all08:52
pittiseb128: you were right08:52
seb128ah ;-)08:52
seb128pitti: I retag those and let you fix apport then, thanks ;-)08:52
cjwatsonsoren: err. just bear in mind that that means that *no* other seeds in the same collection will be allowed to include clamav-milter08:52
pitti        a = report.get('PackageArchitecture', report.get('Architecture'))08:52
pitti        if 'CoreDump' in report and a:08:52
cjwatsonit's a very big hammer08:52
pitti            if a != 'all':08:52
sorenpitti: *facepalm* Of course. You're absolutely right.08:52
NCommanderseb128, I can't find the pangomm module in their bugzilla08:53
seb128pitti: any reason you special cased arch all there?08:53
pittisoren: however, what's so evil about -milter that you want to blacklist it?08:53
pittiseb128: bzr blame'ing08:53
seb128NCommander: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=pangomm, you already opened bugs on it08:53
sorenpitti: ISTR ScottK saying something about leaving it out of main for some reason.08:53
pitti  * apport/crashdb_impl/launchpad.py: Check PackageArchitecture for 'all', to08:53
pitti    not set a retracer tag 'need-all-retrace'.08:53
sorenpitti: Perhaps I should just leave this all to him.08:54
pittiseb128: ^08:54
seb128ah08:54
pittisoren: right, it shouldn't be in main, but that doesn't mean we have to blacklist it08:54
seb128pitti: should I open a bug so you can keep track of the issue?08:54
pittisoren: if we just seed clamav, the binary, then only the transitive dependencies will be pulled in08:54
pittiseb128: if you wish, but I'm fixing it right now08:54
seb128ok so no need08:54
sorenpitti: That was sort of the question I was asking :) I wasn't sure of the severity of the blacklisting, but if we only just add clamav, everything should be fine.08:55
NCommanderseb128, I can't find the file that's GPL specific08:56
seb128NCommander: look to your debian/copyright, you noted it08:56
NCommanderI feel like I'm loosing my own mind :-)08:56
seb128NCommander: something tell me you are making no effort tonight ;-)08:56
NCommanderseb128, No, plenty of effort, I'm pioneering a PIE aspect of Ubuntu08:57
seb128NCommander: too much effort maybe then ;-)08:57
NCommanderseb128, http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=55078908:57
ubottuGnome bug 550789 in general "Missing GPL license text" [Normal,Unconfirmed]08:57
seb128NCommander: thanks08:57
NCommanderseb128, no problem. kees has wanted to -fPIE the architecture for ages, but it requires a hell of a lot of work to be done, to the point that I felt rebootstrapping from scratch was the "easiest" way to go08:58
NCommander^amd6408:58
NCommanderseb128, now that its noted, can you approve pangomm through NEW on ubuntu :-)09:00
seb128NCommander: I'll sponsor the upload and ask somebody else to have a look, it's bad taste to approve it's own uploads ;-)09:00
NCommanderI thought it was already uploaded O_o;09:01
pittiseb128: testing the fix now; please go ahead and retag09:03
seb128pitti: ok, thanks09:03
seb128NCommander: no this GPL thing stopped me09:03
NCommanderseb128, so now that upstream been pinged, and the copyright file is good, no issues?09:03
seb128NCommander: it should be alright, I'll upload09:04
NCommanderSweet, my maintained packages count goes up :-)09:04
slangasekcody-somerville: do you know whether anyone's testing the xubuntu candidate images for alpha-5 yet?09:14
directhexpitti, thanks for sorting #26271909:14
pittidirecthex: thanks for writing the MIR09:15
cody-somervilleslangasek, I've poked in #xubuntu-devel09:15
cody-somervilleI'll download and burn right now09:15
slangasekcool09:15
pittiseb128: yay, bug 26462609:16
ubottuBug 264626 on http://launchpad.net/bugs/264626 is private09:16
seb128pitti: don't have access09:16
pittiseb128: ^ argh, sorry; well, it got the tag now09:16
seb128good ;-)09:16
directhexpitti, better news: i've been chatting with upstream and debian, and mono itself should be able to drop ubuntu patching post-intrepid09:16
pittiseb128: oh, the i386 screen has an open chroot login; were you going to work in it?09:17
seb128pitti: yes, I'm updating the i386 retracer and I'm looking on the amd64 why those retracing give broken stacktraces09:17
pittiseb128: the amd64 one, too (wget CoreDump.gz09:17
pittiseb128: ok, thanks, I won't mess with it then09:17
NCommanderdirecthex, SCORE09:18
pittidirecthex: rock09:18
* NCommander hugs directhex 09:18
RAOFdirecthex: No more crazy evolution-sharp-build-breaking livecd patches?  Woo!09:19
directhexRAOF, apparently that's already turned off in current intrepid packages09:19
RAOFI thought NCommander reworked it so that it wasn't so break-my-build crazy.09:20
directhexthe only current diffs between what's in pkg-mono svn and ubuntu are the arg_max bug (changed upstream, or debian will need to worry about it when new libc lands post-lenny, whichever is sooner) and gda2 dependency hacking (which upstream has promised to port to gda3 asap)09:20
seb128pitti: the i386 retracer is available, should I restart it or do you want to test something?09:20
NCommanderRAOF, the patch is still needed until unionfs is completely dead, so I rewrote the patch as not to be stupid and have a stack exploit.09:21
pittiseb128: no, please go ahead and restart09:21
seb128pitti: done09:21
directhexRAOF, he did! except now apparently aufs doesn't need it09:21
NCommanderdirecthex, at the time, the livecd was still unionfs :-)09:21
RAOFHm, which reminds me.  There's an easy to fix gtk-sharp memory leak that I should get debdifing.09:21
cjwatsonwe have at least one critical problem with aufs, so don't count your chickens09:21
NCommanders/was/still is/g09:21
directhexcjwatson, well the patch is still there if need be, it's just off in 00list09:21
RAOF...which would go faster if my ISP didn't think 50 bytes/sec was blazing fast!09:22
NCommanderRAOF, what, you have AOL?09:22
directhexright, i have a minibus to catch09:22
StevenKRAOF: For an Australian ISP, that's too fast09:22
* cody-somerville is downloading at 1.4mb/s :-)09:23
tseliotmvo: have a look at my reply here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/fglrx-installer/+bug/24737609:23
ubottuLaunchpad bug 247376 in ubuntu-release-notes "undefined symbols when trying to load fglrx" [Undecided,Confirmed]09:23
tseliotmvo: I'll be glad to help09:23
* RAOF is usually able to download at ~1Mb/sec09:23
RAOFUrgh.  Does anyone else feel like doing what should be a simple cherry pick from upstream svn for this gtk-sharp memory leak?09:25
mvotseliot: thanks, that sounds reasonable, I will look into it later today09:27
tseliotmvo: ok09:29
NCommanderRAOF, sorry, already have my own lack of sanity "issues"09:30
seb128oh, mvo is back09:31
* seb128 hugs mvo09:31
mvohello seb!09:31
* mvo hugs seb12809:31
RAOFNCommander: Bah!  Do my bidding!  Oh, well.  I'll go and do some washing up then.  Presumably gtk-sharp2 will have finished checking out by then.09:32
* pitti hugs mvo, hey mate!09:32
NCommanderRAOF, lol09:32
cody-somervilleslangasek, fail. I ran out of disk space :P09:33
* mvo hugs pitti09:33
dholbachhey mvo!09:36
dholbachhey seb128!09:36
seb128hello dholbach09:38
mvohey dholbach!09:40
directhexoh, the other one that should make people happy is the planned changes to mono packaging that should yield a large disk space reduction (no precise figures yet, but we're talking the region of 40% smaller install size for f-spot/tomboy with dependencies)09:51
pittidirecthex: wannahavewannahave!09:52
directhexpitti, not until post-intrepid. sorry.09:52
pittidirecthex: sure, but it's great to hear; what will change?09:52
directhexpitti, in short, 2 main things: .NET 2.0 apps like tomboy will no longer require any .NET 1.1 components to install (libmono-*1.0-cil things), and libmono{1,2}.0-cil will be split into its constituent components, as there's no reason to pull in things like sqlite dependencies because you want to use Mono.Posix for i18n09:54
directhexoh, and i forgot the third one: stop depending on libmono0, it's totally not needed by anything except libuno-cil09:58
mcasadevall_directhex, what depends on libmono0?09:59
* mcasadevall_ has gotten creative w.r.t. to cross-bootstrapping gcc09:59
=== MacSlow_ is now known as MacSlow
directhexmcasadevall_, currently? lots of things. libmono-system*-cil for one (System is the main namespace, and mandatory, so libmono0 is currently always pulled in). also mono-utils and libmono{1,2}.0-cil (useful Mono-originated libraries)10:02
mcasadevall_explicately or via dpkg-shlibs?10:02
directhexvia a flaw in ${cli:Depends} i think.10:05
pittimpt: so I did a mockup of the jockey UI changes we talked about; do you have a minute to have a look at it? I'm not quite sure how to improve the layout, especially where to put the "Install" button10:31
mdzcjwatson: I just had a poke at the current daily desktop ISO, and the F4 menu in gfxboot doesn't allow me to navigate with up/down arrow keys in KVM.  Do you know if it works outside of KVM?10:31
pittimpt: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/tmp/main.glade is the glade10:31
cjwatsonmdz: WFM in kvm with -k en-us10:33
mdzcjwatson: me too, with -k en-us10:34
cjwatsonmdz: usual kvm bug, then. gfxboot itself is working fine10:35
mdzcjwatson: ok, thanks10:35
mdzcjwatson: I wonder what will happen when I try to use the alpha keys with -k en-us10:35
mdzwhen X is using us(dvorak)10:35
cjwatsonIME changing the console keymap after that sort of works a bit but not quite. The KVM bug definitely needs to be fixed10:38
pittimpt: http://people.ubuntu.com/~pitti/tmp/jockey-new.png is a corresponding screen shot10:38
pittimpt: the install button is new and a response to your suggestion that clicking on an item in the driver list should not enable the driver, just update the info10:39
Companypitti: i like that screenshot10:56
Companypitti: it's a nice dialog that says "your hardware sucks, no matter what you chose"10:56
TreenaksCompany: The German buttons help with that as well ;)10:57
Treenaks"Wait.. why are those German? Something must be wrong with my graphics card"10:57
CompanyTreenaks: i know glade too well to still be bothered by those buttons10:58
Companymy hacking makes me miss out on all the fun10:58
Treenaks;)10:59
MortenBHow many hours until alpha 5 is out?11:06
cjwatsonMortenB: we can't give you an answer to questions of that form, because milestones are not scheduled to the hour; it depends on how well testing goes11:12
MortenBok11:13
cjwatsonwow, yes, something *has* put fonts into ugly mode11:14
ograjust make braile the defult output ... solves all font probs11:18
ogra*braille11:18
pitticjwatson: me too11:23
ogracjwatson, fyi the cheese/gstreamer fix on the cmpc works ... but only if i apply both of them11:23
ograwhich means two SRUs :(11:23
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
ScottKpitti: Thanks for all the Spamassassin/Clamav MIR getting done so quickly.  Personally, I not doing anything with seeds until after Alpha 5 releases ..11:31
ScottKpitti and soren: The rationale for not promoting the milter is that it's not needed for the use case we wanted to support and it's not (AFAICT) much used in Ubuntu so it'd be hard to get it well tested.11:32
pittiScottK: you're welcome11:32
verwilsteuh, the flashplugin-nonfree in hardy-backports11:34
verwilst10.0.1.218+10.0.0.525ubuntu1~hardy1+really9.0.124.0ubuntu211:34
ScottKOf course this means I can't approve the FFe for clamav 0.94 anymore, so I need to get to work.11:34
verwilstseems to be 9.0 still?11:34
ScottKverwilst: Yes.  Tried 10.0 and it didn't go so well.11:34
ScottKHad to revert it.11:35
verwilstoh11:35
verwilstwhat went wrong?11:35
verwilst9 still crashes like crazy :)11:35
verwilstdamned proprietary c**p11:36
verwilst:)11:36
ScottKAt the time, 10 was substantially worse on Hardy.11:36
verwilstthe rc was a lot better though11:36
ScottKThere's a bug open in hardy-backports if you really care for the details.11:36
verwilst10.0.0.569 is the latest11:37
ScottKThe bug in hardy-backports is the place to have the conversation if you're interested.11:38
verwilsteuh which of the 167 bugs is it? :)11:39
verwilst162 sorry11:39
ScottKverwilst: Bug 23513511:40
ubottuLaunchpad bug 235135 in flashplugin-nonfree "[MASTER] Please backport flashplugin-nonfree version 10 beta and asound-plugins from Intrepid so we can drop libflashsupport and the crashes it causes" [Undecided,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/23513511:40
ScottKIf you want to start the process of testing the newer version feel free to make it not invalid and document your work.11:41
kelemengaborhi mvo11:41
mvohi kelemengabor11:41
kelemengaborwould you please comment on this bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/app-install-data-ubuntu/+bug/25462811:41
ubottuLaunchpad bug 254628 in app-install-data-ubuntu "Make it possible to translate eg. codec name/description strings" [Undecided,New]11:41
mvokelemengabor: yes, I will do that after lunch11:42
kelemengaborthanks :)11:42
mvokelemengabor: thanks a lot for your initial version of the script!11:42
verwilstScottK: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/flashplugin-nonfree/+bug/257403 looks promising11:42
ubottuLaunchpad bug 257403 in flashplugin-nonfree "Update Flash plugin 10 to the new RC" [Wishlist,New]11:42
ograasac, i cant upload attachments to LP anymore ... FF only offers me dirs, not files ?11:43
ogra(intrepid)11:43
ScottKverwilst: Yes, that'd have to be done first.  Then a backport.11:43
asacogra: when started?11:43
ograwell, its a while ago that i uploaded my last patch via the web ui11:44
ograjust noticed it now11:44
ograthere are no files in the fileselector at all11:44
ograonly dirs11:44
ograsystem was updated yesterday last11:45
verwilst    File name: npwrapper.libflashplayer.so    Shockwave Flash 10.0.0 d569, installed here ;11:45
verwilstlet's see if it works as great as i think it will ;)11:45
verwilst( from his ppa )11:45
asacverwilst: remember that nspluginwrapper istn really at its best atm ;)11:47
verwilstasac: what do you mean?11:47
asacverwilst: nspluginwrapper 1.1.011:47
asacis hot crack ;)11:47
verwilstasac: is that a good or a bad thing? :)11:47
verwilstwhat's improved since the 0.9 thing that hardy has?11:48
asacverwilst: are you on i386?11:48
verwilstyip11:48
asacverwilst: 1st. its available on i38611:48
asac(which wasnt the case in hardy)11:48
cjwatsonis bugs.edge.launchpad.net refusing to take bug comments for anyone else?11:48
verwilsteuh?11:48
asac2nd. it supports windowless plugins11:48
verwilst0.9 doesnt?11:49
asace.g. flash 10 supports windowless mode now ... so nspluginwrapper had to follow11:49
verwilstso nspluginwrapper became the de facto standard of flash-containment? :)11:49
asacverwilst: thats the idea.11:50
asacverwilst: let me know what your experiences are with that wrapper11:51
directhexnspluginwrapper was completely farked in hardy11:51
directhexas in "just plain dies every few seconds if you use compiz"11:51
asacdirecthex: you sure that wasnt flash?11:51
directhexin the end i gave up & switched to a binary 32-bit firefox in /opt11:52
directhexasac, yes, sure11:52
verwilstasac: so i should install it too11:52
verwilstor is it in backports?11:52
asacdirecthex: you could try to move /usr/lib32/libflashsupport.so away11:52
asacverwilst: are you on hardy?11:52
verwilstyeah11:53
verwilsti took the deb from https://launchpad.net/~psyke83/+archive11:53
asacok ... then you dont have 1.1.0 anyway11:53
verwilst( for flash )11:53
verwilstah ok :)11:53
verwilstflash was hell for my girlfriend :)11:54
verwilstswitched her to ubuntu from windows11:54
verwilstand during first thing she did, she had a firefox crash11:54
verwilstaround 10-15/day11:54
directhexflash is hell generally11:55
verwilstit was pretty embarrassing11:55
verwilstafter a few weeks, i did the nspluginwrapper stuffs11:55
directhexof course, i wonder how many people will beat me with a pole if i suggest silverlight instead11:55
verwilstwhich made it pretty under control11:55
verwilstsilverlight _is_ open sourced..11:55
verwilstwhich is its only advantage though..11:55
directhexmoonlight is. silverlight isn't11:56
verwilstoh yeah sorry11:56
verwilsti was talking about moonlight11:56
directhexany objections to a moon package?11:56
asacverwilst: so are you using nspluginwrapper for i386 from mozillateam ppa or something homebrew?11:57
asacogra: try to downgrade xulrunner-1.9 please11:58
asacto 1.9.0.1+* (you probably have 1.9.0.2+build3)11:59
asacNote: i dont see that problem :(11:59
directhexoh, that was something i was gonna ask. will xul-dev 1.8 and 1.9 ever be installable side by side? it makes a difference to moonlight packaging11:59
ograpersia, any objections if we dont update denemo in intrepid ?12:00
asacdirecthex: the -dev packages conflict intentionally12:01
persiaogra: None at all, as long as you push it to universe.12:01
ograthat way we can just get a MIR for libaubio and are done with it for now (indeed postponing the change/decision to intrepid+1)12:01
ograpersia, no need for that12:01
* persia looks at libaubio rdepends12:01
directhexooh, actually, i can get around it by using firefox-2-dev12:03
persiaogra: Are you planning on pulling all the libaubio2 dependencies as well?  I know rexbron was looking at freebob, but as far as I know no MIR exists yet.12:04
ograpersia, or dropping aubio12:04
persiaAnd it's just freebob that I thought might be an issue.12:04
ografrom denemo12:04
persiaogra: Could do that I suppose.12:04
* persia looks at denemo again12:04
ograi'd like to go with the easiest option ...12:04
persiaWouldn't the easiest just be to drop denemo from the seed?12:05
verwilstflash will be open too sooner or later as well ;)12:05
persiaAll the feedback in the thread about it seemed to indicate that nobody used it, but I don't know how widely the mailing list is subscribed.12:05
ograwell, that would be a regression imho12:05
persiaYeah.  I'm just wondering if people are going to expect denemo to be able to render audio.  They could be pointed to mscore, but the results don't look as good when printed.12:06
asacjames_w: when i want to use a specific build-dir and stuff like that for a certain tree on my system, how do i best configure that in builddeb.conf?12:07
persiaAlso, what about lilypond?  Are you expecting anyone to be able to render sheet music to a printer from denemo?12:07
asacjames_w: could i say something like: path/to/intrepid/trees -> result-dir=/path/to/intrepid/results/12:08
asac?12:08
siretartasac: what's the use-case of that? how many such branches do you have?12:09
asacsiretart: i have a bunch of branches12:09
asacsiretart: i have a bunch that is debian ... another that is intrepid ... another that is hardy12:10
asacand i dont want the results to end up in the same directory12:10
asacalso i would like to use distinct build-areas12:10
james_wasac: ideally you could use locations.conf for that, but locations.conf isn't checked for builddeb's settings12:10
james_wasac: or perhaps it is now, let me have a look12:10
asacjames_w: that would be cool ;)12:11
* siretart has specified that on the command line up to now, but I agree that this is a bit cumbersome12:11
asacme too ... and i regularly forget it ;)12:11
asacmy bzr bd line is already long enough ;)12:11
james_wasac, siretart: you can use local.conf, but it's a pain to set it for all branches if you have lots12:12
siretartasac: oh, try aliases12:12
asacsiretart: i tried to ... but i always forget :)12:12
siretartasac: I often define ad hoc aliases in my interactive shell for such purposes12:12
asacsiretart: thats a last resort. i just hoped that i can configure it magically so i dont need to think at all ;)12:14
siretartasac: even with locations.conf, you still have to configure them all one-by-one initially12:15
asacsiretart: not if it does match patterns. ;) ... i usually have *.head branches (which track latest development)12:16
asacand .hardy ... for hardy12:16
james_wsiretart: you can use policies to avoid that in some cases12:16
siretartasac: oh, does locations.conf indeed use patterns? that would indeed be helpful here12:16
siretartjames_w: what is a 'policy' here?12:16
asacon top env could specify a different locations.conf12:17
asacso when i schroot -csid12:17
asaci can build my .head branches but those go to "sid" results then12:17
james_wsiretart: you can specify a build-dir for /home/whoever/wherever/ and then a policy to recurse, so it is the same for all branches under that location12:17
asacjames_w: how hard would it be to make that a pattern?12:18
james_wasac: no idea12:18
asaci usually want all my branches in the same directory12:18
siretartjames_w: I see. well, I need to read the documentation about that then :)12:18
james_wasac: defining what wins is much harder though12:18
asacjames_w: what wins? as usual: first match wins ;)12:19
asacor last match12:19
asaci dont mind :-D12:19
asaci think its the responsibility of the user to not have disambiguities12:20
ramvi[CUSTOMIZING LIVECD] I experienced some problems upgrading something when customizing the livecd. It's fixed now, the bug reports are saved somewhere though and is the first thing that greets a new user. Where are the bug reports saved? How can I stop them from appearing?12:24
ramvinevermind, found it: /var/crash/12:26
persiaogra: To get back to the discussion, I think that denemo without any of libaubio, csound, or lilypond is a little crippled.  For my interests, lilypond is sufficient, but I wonder which goal you expect to solve.  Just screen entry of notes?12:29
ograwell, i dont know what you got last from me12:30
ograi seem to fail to find jordans original mail12:30
ograand the eudbuntu list only had a single reply12:30
asacogra: would appreciate if you could do a quick downgrade test12:30
ografrom y user who said he uses ubuntustudio and is happy with it12:30
ogra*s/y/a/12:30
asacyou are basically running the xulrunner 1.9 security upgrade so any regression is important to track12:30
asac;)12:30
ograwhich is not really helpful12:31
cjwatsonasac: bug 262152 bites me on every reboot; I think we should do something about it for intrepid12:31
ubottuLaunchpad bug 262152 in network-manager "brings up both wired and wireless interfaces; hard to pick just one through the UI" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26215212:31
ograpersia, i would consider it a regression to drop denemo12:32
ograbut then, if its not used there is indeed no reason to keep it12:32
ograasac, will do so as soon as i have a hand free12:33
asaccjwatson: lets milestone it then (though i still have that in my head ;))12:33
cjwatsonthanks12:34
ogracould i ask an archive admin to give me a hint why my cheese upload to hardy-proposed is rejected ?12:34
persiaogra: I understand that dropping it without cause is a regression: I'm just curious which use case it's there for: without lilypond, it can't render sheets for printing, and without either libaubio or csound, it can't render audio.12:35
ograthe drescher mail talks about a md5 mistmatch ... but i definately pulled the source from the archive12:35
* ogra wonders if he found a bug 12:35
ograc5f767bd9a55d2a515fd8960ec3523c0 1650728 gnome optional cheese_2.22.3.orig.tar.gz is definately the right md5 for whats in proposed12:36
cjwatsonogra: there's already a cheese 2.22.3-0ubuntu2 in the archive12:36
ogranot on -changes and i dont get it from apt-get source12:36
cjwatsonit's not the .orig.tar.gz it's complaining about. (The unhelpful message from Launchpad has been fixed for the next rollout.)12:36
cjwatson    cheese | 2.22.3-0ubuntu2 | intrepid/universe | source, amd64, hppa, i386, ia64, lpia, powerpc, sparc12:36
cjwatsonuse 2.22.3-0ubuntu1.112:36
ograintrepid12:36
ograsigh ... i didnt think about looking at intrepid ...12:37
cjwatsonyes. it's still in the archive; you can't have different things called cheese_2.22.3-0ubuntu2 in hardy and intrepid12:37
* ogra curses ... doing the same mistake again12:37
cjwatsonof course, I had the benefit of locate(1) :-)12:37
ograyeah, i had that with a former upload12:37
ograisnt 1.1 for security only ...12:37
cjwatsonno12:38
ograthat gets confusing over time i bet12:38
ograok12:38
cjwatsonI've used that scheme for updates plenty of times12:38
ograi always thought .n was limited to security ... assumptions assumptions :)12:38
* ogra fixes the upload12:38
persiaThe wiki at one point indicated that all SRUs should use the same versioning as for security updates.  I'm not sure if that's the case today.12:39
cjwatsonSRUs should simply use non-clashing version numbers. This means two things: firstly, don't clash with something that already exists; secondly, don't clash with something that might reasonably be expected to exist later (e.g. if you have 1.0-1 in hardy and Debian doesn't have a newer version for merging into intrepid, don't use 1.0-2)12:40
cjwatsonbeyond that, and especially if the next release along is already a known version, it really doesn't matter12:40
ograyeah12:40
cjwatson(also, don't clash with something that *has* existed in the past, of course)12:40
ograheh, indeed12:41
pittipersia: it was just a proposal of a scheme which is reasonably clash-free, but not a requirement12:41
persiapitti: Indeed.  I think the wiki has been fixed since, but at one point it indicated it was a requirement.12:41
persiaI suspect it was the result of an overzealous editor, rather than being an official policy.12:42
ograpersia, ok, denemo dropped (though i'd still like to find that original mail of joardan)12:49
persiaogra: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-users/2008-August/004331.html : You could pull from the mbox archive if you need a local copy.12:52
persiaogra: Also, although we do Recommends-by-default, please don't remove the Recommends: on lilypond and csound, as for universe use, those are somewhat important for denemo to behave as expected.12:54
* ogra doesnt get it12:54
ograi'm the listadmin for edubuntu-users12:54
ograwhy the heck dont i have that mail at all12:54
persiaogra: It was also sent to edubuntu-devel, if that helps you find it.12:55
ograo match12:56
ogra*no12:56
* ogra wonders if its time to drop evo ... :(12:57
mptpitti, hi13:01
pittihey mpt13:01
mptpitti, buttons should always use Title Case13:03
mpt(unless you're programming for Windows Vista, which you're not)13:03
pittiargh no :)13:04
mptpitti, good work removing the column headers13:04
pittimpt: Show License button fixed13:04
didrockshi13:04
pittimpt: column headers?13:04
pittimpt: this is just a glade mockup, so I cannot actually put demo contents into the driver list13:05
mptpitti, yes, "Component", "Enabled", and "Status"13:05
sorenWhen do we expect to lift the alpha freeze?13:05
pittimpt: I didn't remove them, it's just the glade; if they shuold go, I can do that in the code13:05
mptah13:05
didrocksis there someone more or less in charge of the lm-sensors package?13:05
mptpitti, why do the list and the description talk about "enable" and "disabled" while the button reads "Install..."?13:06
mptWhat are we doing here, exactly?13:06
pittimpt: the Install button will actually read "Enable" or "Disable", depending on whether the driver is currently enabled13:06
pittimpt: and the Show License.. button will only appear for non-free drivers13:07
mptpitti, do you need to do anything else to see the license, other than clicking that button?13:07
pittimpt: main.glade updated to p.u.c.13:08
pittimpt: I envisioned that clicking the button will produce a second dialog with a large scrollable text area and a close button13:08
pitti(unless you have a better ide)13:08
mptpitti, in that case, you won't need to do anything else to see the license, other than clicking that button13:09
mptTherefore, the button should not have an ellipsis13:09
pittiok, done13:09
asacmpt: http://people.ubuntu.com/~asac/screenshots/plugin.alt.png ... can you tell me if its good enough just to have the radio buttons next to the plugin icon on top? or do i need to prefix it with "manage" or "Filter" or something?13:10
asac(the dialog would be called "Manage Content Plugins" or something i guess)13:10
mptpitti, the driver description is missing its border -- it should have exactly the same border as the list does13:10
mptasac, window titles should always use Title Case13:10
asacmpt: read what i wrote two lines above ;)13:11
mptah :-)13:11
asacmpt: i am mostly interested in the heading above the list ... just the plugin icon and then the radio thing?13:11
mptasac, what's the icon for?13:11
asacor keep the word "Manage" or Filter or something13:11
asacmpt: thats the official "plugin" icon used in firefox13:11
mptasac, yes, but what does it do in this window?13:12
asacmpt: nothing. its just an eye candy13:12
mptasac, I suggest removing it then13:12
pittimpt: hm, the normal TextView widget doesn't seem to have one13:12
asacmpt: atm i just want to know wehther the radio alone is enough ;)13:13
mptpitti, I think that's because it's sometimes used for the entire contents of a window, in which case it shouldn't have a border beyond what the window manager already provides13:13
pittimpt: maybe I shuold replace it with a GtkScrolledWindow container13:13
mptpitti, but as a result, GTK programmers very often forget to add the border when it's *not* the entire contents of a window13:13
mptIt's quite unfortunate13:13
amitkwhat would it take to get kerneloops into the default install?13:14
mptasac, I suggest "Show:", and putting that label to the left of the radio buttons rather than above them.13:14
asacokay13:14
mptasac, also, radio button labels should always use sentence case. :-)13:15
mpt(e.g. "Plug-ins in use", not "Plug-ins in Use")13:15
asacand "All plugins" ?13:15
mptright13:15
asacfor me that always looks funny13:15
asacbut well :)13:15
pittimpt: main.glade updated on p.u.c.13:16
pittimpt: I removed the ellipsis from Enable... too, for the same reason13:16
asacmpt: ok. and such a dialog would get a "Close" button ... not "Ok", right?13:16
mptpitti, well done :-)13:17
asac(the changes apply instantly when you change the selection)13:17
mptasac, what dialog?13:17
asacmpt: the dialog we are talking about?13:17
pittimpt: btw, in the actual code, the Enable button will get the usual icon (just like in current jockey), and Show License shuold get the info symbol; unfortunately that's not possible in glade-313:17
pittimpt: do you think the enable button is too 'hidden'? shuold it be in the bottom button bar (where help and close is)?13:18
mptasac, this isn't a dialog. It's an ordinary window, like Firefox's Add-ons and Bookmarks/History windows.13:18
mptasac, so my next suggestion was going to be, remove all the padding between the edge of the list and the right, bottom, and left edges of the window. Like in a Nautilus window.13:19
asacmpt: preferences -> Close button ... addons -> no button13:19
mptpitti, does that mean all the buttons will become the same height?13:19
asacmpt: yes thats on my list13:20
asac(padding)13:20
pittimpt: yes (if not through the icon, I'll make sure it happens in the code, but I suppose setting an icon will fix it already)13:20
pittiI wish glade-3 would allow me to set a button icon with arbitrary text..13:20
mptasac, so the part at the top with the radio buttons in it should have padding, but the rest should not. Like Nautilus's Trash window.13:20
* asac never uses nautilus :-P13:21
asaclet me look13:21
asacmpt: yes. i agree13:21
asacmpt: the other thing i wondera bout is whether the rows should get a title?13:21
mptasac, however, because each item in the list can potentially contain an option menu, each item should have the normal padding.13:22
asaclike "Content type" "Plugin"13:22
mptWhich means the rows will be quite a bit taller than they are now.13:22
mptasac, good question, I was wondering about that13:22
mptI'm not sure13:22
asacmpt: i dont understand the "normal" padding for the items13:23
asacyou say that i should add an extra padding for the items?13:23
asaclike 0.25em?13:23
pittimpt: updated again, I fixed the expand/fill attributes, so that resizing the dialog DTRT13:23
mptasac, as in 0.5em between the edges of the option menu and the edges of the cell that it's inside.13:23
asacok ill try. what i ll do is ensrue that every element has a proper class so we can tweak all this through CSS13:25
mptpitti, this is looking much better13:25
asacthanks for your input so far13:25
pittimpt: so clicking on Enable would immediately start installation, instead of giving you the confirmation dialog with the detailled description13:25
mptasac, I think column headers might well help some people understand which is the plug-in and which is the media type13:25
asacmpt: oh. still: close or no button to close? (preferences window has a button, while addons doesnt have one)13:26
mptasac, especially since being a window devoted to plug-ins, people might expect that to be the first textual column13:26
asacmpt: right.13:26
mptasac, no extra button, like the Add-ons window13:26
asacok13:26
* mpt starts to wish Glade had a "Revert" menu item13:26
asacmpt: are you using glade 3?13:26
mptyep13:27
pittimpt: there's undo in glade-3?13:27
mptpitti, I mean to reload the file after I've downloaded each new revision of yours :-)13:27
mptpitti, when you click "Enable", do you need to do anything else to enable the driver?13:28
pittimpt: so if you are generally satisfied with which kind of information is displayed and the new installation workflow, I can change the code accordingly (moving buttons around is cheap afterwards, changing workflow less so)13:28
pittimpt: no, that's why I removed the ellipsis13:28
mptah, so you did13:28
pittimpt: well... it is conceivable that in the future particular handlers ask for more information, but I try to avoid that as much as possible13:29
mptok13:29
pittimpt: and in that case I can still dynamically add the elipsis to the button13:29
pittibut in general you'll immediately get the progress window and install starts13:29
mptnice13:29
mptpitti, so yes, the interaction looks fine, though there are still a few things to fix in the layout13:30
mptand the text13:30
pittishould the two label values be left-aligned?13:30
mptHow easy is it to change the text for each driver?13:30
pittii.e . support status and license value13:30
pittimpt: it's a matter of changing it in the particular handler .py file, or in the online driver db13:31
mptthanks asac13:31
pittibut since it gets i18n'ed, the cost is not negligible, since it would break translations13:31
mpttrue, that's always a problem13:31
pittibut all the nvidia specifics in that glade are just random examples, they won't be in the glade, of course13:32
pittibut having them there makes reviewing easier, I thought13:32
mptpitti, I'm not sure about the alignment, that partly depends on the rest of the layout.13:32
pittiATM the bottom half layout is pretty messy13:33
mptyes13:33
pittiseems I really lack the talent to come up with something that looks friendly and standardized13:33
mptafaict there are three issues remaining: (1) uses the word "enable" (an easy wording fix), (2) the "Enable" button looks very closely related to the support status when it isn't, and (3) there are three different button widths in quick succession.13:34
pittimpt: what would you recommend instead of "Enable"? It's not install/uninstall, as you can have drivers which are installed, but disabled (i. e. not used)13:36
mptTentatively, "Use This Driver" and "Stop Using This Driver"13:36
mptthe latter's a little long13:37
pittieven the former is very long if I consider the German translation13:37
mptso use whatever's the German for "Enable" instead then :-P13:37
pittiheh, yes, of course translators could do that :)13:38
mptpitti, when would be the best time to tackle the layout? Now, or sometime later?13:39
pittimpt: (3) I could fix the top two buttons by placing them into a vbox and using fill/expand, I suppose; but that wouldn't apply to the "close" button which is part of the standard dialog button bar13:39
asacGerman for Enable ... ist "enablen" ;)13:39
pittiasac: *cough*13:40
pittiasac: gedowngeloadet :)13:40
asacoh ... better "enaebeln" ;)13:40
asachmmm13:40
asac"eneibeln" ;)13:40
pittimpt: whenever you have time, I'm good with "now" (well, meeting in 20)13:40
asacpitti: we should finally stop being so picky about translations :)13:40
pittiasac: I have "Aktivieren"13:40
mptpitti, yeah, I need to send in my activity report. ;-) How about after the meeting?13:40
pittimpt: great; since it's only layout, I can start coding already13:41
asacpitti: which means: "activate" ;)13:41
pittien_STARTREK: "Engage!"13:41
mptMake it .so13:41
ograasac, "enaebeln" is so not german ... änäbln is ...13:42
pittiI don't know you guys13:42
ograit has the right umlauts at least13:42
asacogra: i feel like an outsider in germany ... i refuse to type umlauts13:42
* ogra giggles evlish13:42
ograme too usually :)13:43
asacgood13:43
cjwatsonasac: so is libmbca dynamically loaded by network-manager?13:44
cjwatsonI was trying to work out how a UI could be a shared library13:44
pittiasac: I think "Uuuuuuuuuund... ACTION!" is cool, too13:44
asaccjwatson: its a wizard library13:45
asaccjwatson: nm-applet will be patched to use that13:45
cjwatsonright, ok13:45
asac(but i cant until we have that lib)13:45
cjwatsonI've accepted it and the database; they should build shortly13:46
asacthanks13:46
asacpitti: "gib Gas!"13:46
asac;)13:46
asacor "Ab dafür!"13:47
mok0I am building Google's new browser Chromium. Anyone wants to join in the fun of building a package?13:48
cpufreakgnarly13:49
mptmok0, does it do anything more than run the test suite?13:50
mok0mpt: don't know yet13:50
mpt(or crash)13:50
asac_reconect13:51
mok0mpt: this is no ordinary run-of-the mill build. The tarball is 438 Mb13:51
mok0mpt: alone the debian/copyright will be ~1Mb I expect :-P13:52
asac_jcastro: would you mind to setup a "chromium" project as a top level project where googlechrome and V8 and other components live in?13:52
mptmok0, wow, deja vu13:53
mpt"The Mozilla source runs 40 megabytes and 1 million-plus lines of intermingled C and C++ covering Windows and Mac and nearly every flavor of Unix, so diving into it is not an undertaking for those with weak hearts or slow computers. To build and use the free Mozilla source code for the free Mozilla browser, you will probably need to invest several thousand dollars in a new computer." -- Salon, 199813:53
asac_jcastro: as subproject? e.g. we need more syncs (like for V8 et al)13:53
mok0Unfortunately, there is another package called "chromium" -- it's a game of some sorts13:54
asac_mok0: well. i want a launchpad project "chromium" ... not sure if that package already has a project ;)13:54
mptmok0, exactly the same issue as epiphany vs. epiphany-browser13:55
mok0asac: Yeah good idea13:55
dholbachasac_: https://launchpad.net/googlechrome13:55
asac_dholbach: thast just the "chrome" subproject13:55
_MMA_mok0: Just a note: "ajmitch: 'Although many Chromium submodules build under Linux and a few unit tests pass, all that runs is a command-line "all tests pass" executable.'"13:55
dholbachah ok13:55
siretarthey, chromium is a really fun game :)13:55
mok0Well Googles page on building it is scarce of info13:57
ograseb128, my evo lost mails ... :(  (just found that by searching for one today)13:57
seb128how?13:58
ograno idea13:58
seb128there was a mbox corruption briefly during the 2.23.90 time13:58
seb128is that new mails?13:58
ograhttps://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/edubuntu-users/2008-August/004331.html13:58
ograthat one is missing13:58
ograi know i read it when it came in13:58
ograand today searchiv for it only revealed the one reply it had13:59
ogra*searching13:59
seb128probably got hit during the 1 day where the buggy version was available13:59
ogranot sure if there were more lost, but i'm sure i had that one13:59
pwnguinmok0: most of the chrome tarball is binary data13:59
mok0pwnguin: yikes13:59
pwnguintheres like two builds in there, and a ton of test data14:00
ograseb128, well, i'll keep an eye on it ... cant fix or change it anyway i guess14:00
asac_pwnguin: they ship all .dlls they need14:01
pwnguinasac_: if you ship your own .dlls, are they really shared?14:01
asac_pwnguin: most likely not. but i think thats a common thing on windows14:01
asac_i heard about "dll-hell" ;)14:01
pwnguindll hell was a versioning thing14:02
pwnguin(is?)14:02
asac_but isnt that the reason why everyone ships duplicate .dlls?14:02
mok0Hmm. Got ld error14:02
pwnguinmok0: chrome's source management tools kept crashing on me =(14:02
mok0pwnguin: Seemed to work for me14:03
mok0pwnguin: but the build doesn't like the default libnss3.so14:03
asac_mok0: default == the copy they are shipping or the intrepid one?14:04
pwnguini wound up just building the tarball without updating14:04
mok0asac: In fact... the hardy one14:04
=== asac_ is now known as asac
asacmok0: doesnt chromium ship their "own" nss copy?14:04
ograasac, which version of xulrunner shall i test ?14:05
asacmok0: maybe its a versioning mismatch there?14:05
ogra1.9.0.2+build3+nobinonly-0ubuntu1 is installed14:05
asacogra: the last 1.9.0.1+build available14:05
ograok14:05
asacmok0: do you used the "repo_tools" ... or did you just get a full checkout of the chromium sources?14:06
mok0I did a full checkout14:06
asacmok0: so how is it failing?14:06
mok0http://pastebin.com/f480b3e3014:06
asacmok0: you dont have the build depends installed as it seems14:07
asacmok0: install libnss3-dev14:07
asachmm incompatible14:07
ograasac, _1.9.0.1+build1+nobinonly-0ubuntu0.8.04.3 ??14:07
mok0asac: I have it14:08
ogra(8.04.3 seems a bit strange)14:08
asacmok0: what is getting linked there?14:08
asacogra: yes14:08
ograok14:08
asacogra: what is strange about that? its the third respin of 0ubuntu8.04.*14:09
asacerr 0.8.04.* ;)14:09
* ogra is running 8.10 :P14:09
mok0asac: Ydrk can't say my damn terminator session just crashed :-(14:09
soren7win 1914:09
sorenGarh...14:09
asacogra: hmm. are you sure you are looking at intrepid?14:09
asacogra: there should be a 1.9.0.1 build for intrepid14:10
ograi'm looking at archive.ubuntu.com14:10
ograthere is no other 1.9.0.114:10
asacogra: nah. look at launchpad :)14:10
asacogra: only launchpad has history ;)14:11
ograoh, right14:11
asacogra: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xulrunner-1.9/1.9.0.1+build1+nobinonly-0ubuntu114:11
asacfor your convenience14:11
ograthanks14:11
asacogra: most likely you need xulrunner-1.9 and xulrunner-1.9-gnome-support binaries14:11
mok0asac: trying again...14:12
mok0asac: but it seems there are special libnss3 packages for firefox and thunderbird14:13
asacmok0: that was long ago14:13
asaclike in feisty14:13
mok0This is where it fails: Linking Hammer/base/base_unittests ...14:13
asacmok0: that doesnt tell me "what" pieces it tries to link together14:14
pwnguinmok0: check the bottom of the build manual page14:14
mok0pwnguin: you mean the bison stuff?14:15
pwnguini thought it sounded similar, but i guess not14:15
ograasac, yep, that fixes it14:15
ograthe file type selector shows "all files" in the bottom right dropdown now ... it didnt show anything with the newer version and listed only dirs14:16
mok0pwnguin: What is strange is that they say: "On Ubuntu 8, you can fetch all of the above as follows: ...... apt-get install .... libnss3-dev"14:16
pwnguinmok0: you might ask in #chromium-linux14:17
mok0pwnguin: good idea14:18
=== seb128_ is now known as seb128
pwnguinknock some sense into 'em ;)14:18
mok0heh14:18
pwnguinubuntu 814:19
pwnguinwtf14:19
mok0pwnguin: well that can't be used for packages14:24
mterrymvo: Is there a way to 'queue up' a package installation (not an update) so that next time the user is online, update-manager would prompt to install?14:28
tkamppeterseb128, do you know balachmar? He wants to work on bug 258421?14:34
ubottuLaunchpad bug 258421 in gtk+2.0 "GTK apps should send PDF to CUPS when printing" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25842114:34
seb128no I don't know him and dunno14:35
persiatkamppeter: He's new: just got excited by this developerweek.14:35
tkamppeterseb128, did you already have a look at bug 258421?14:35
seb128yes quickly before my holidays14:35
seb128but it's not obvious why you commented code to me14:35
tkamppeterpersia, thank you, he talked to me yesterday here on IRC, but when I saw it he had already left.14:36
persiamterry: Not realy.  One could mark something to be installed by apt, so next time the user performed an upgrade it would install.14:36
mterrypersia: But only if they did it from command line?14:37
mterrypersia: How evil would it be to create some fake package with a version 0?  7th circle or merely 2nd?14:37
persiamterry: No.  You can do about anything you want with python-apt: just don't actually perform the install.14:37
tkamppeterseb128, what do you mean with "commented code to me"?14:37
persiamterry: Well, version 0 actually works, but it tends to break the archive tools: my experience with 0.0~foo is that the archive-admins won't touch the package, making it non-ideal.14:38
tkamppeterseb128, do you mean that I commented out some code? This code does not make sense with PDF.14:38
mterrypersia: I'm not sure I follow.  I can mark something to be installed by apt.  OK.  How does user see that?  Does update-manager prompt?14:39
mterrypersia: Re: version 0, I'm not talking about in a repo, but locally create/install a version 0 deb on the fly, so when update-manager runs, it prompts to download14:39
seb128tkamppeter: I just looked at the patch, will need to look at the code to have some context14:39
persiamterry: You *really* don't want to do that.14:39
mterrypersia: (this is for if a user picks a language that isn't available at install time.  I'd like update-manager to prompt to download language packs)14:40
* persia digs up the python-apt docs, having filed the information in deep storage14:40
mrxmikewhy is there no package for winexe in the repos!? > http://eol.ovh.org/winexe/14:43
mrxmikeits a really handy tool!!14:43
persiamterry: I think what you want is to call markedInstall = true for a given package, but not commit.  From my understanding this should cause the apt-cache to update and indicate the package is to be installed.  Next time there is a commit of the apt-cache, it would install the package (for instance, in update-manager).  You'd want to test to see what that means for UI though.14:44
persiaIf you know you have access to a repo, you can commit immediately, and perform the install.14:44
mterrypersia: OK.  Thanks for the pointer!  I'll dig/test14:45
mvomterry: sorry, there is currently no way to make this kind of persistant marks for install in plain apt14:45
jcastroasac: what about chromium-browser for the big group? same solution people do for epiphany.14:45
mvomterry: you can do stuff with "dpkg --set-selections" and then "apt-get dselect-upgrade"14:45
persiamvo: Marking for install won't carry over?14:45
* ogra wonders if a simple dpkg --set-selections couldnt do that14:45
mvopersia: no, its not permanent14:45
persiaogra: It can, but that wouldn't be Python :)14:45
ograah, beats me14:45
asacjcastro: i dont see that we need to choose a different name unless chromium is already registered14:45
persiamvo: Why not?14:45
mterrymvo: It would be nice for above use case (prompt to download something that wasn't available at install time).  I tried -set-selections, but update-manager doesn't seem to care14:45
jcastroasac: ah ok, fair enough, I'm on it. :D14:46
asacjcastro: and its not really said that thats all "-browser" in the future. maybe chromium-project if we need a new name14:46
mvomterry: we could teach update-manager to do something similar as dselect-upgrade, that would actually be useful for more things14:46
mrxmikeanyon?14:46
ogramterry, you need the dselect-upgrade call as well14:46
mterryogra: Ah, I probably missed that14:46
asacjcastro: cool. and register its subprojects too :) ... like V8, breakpad ;)14:46
mvomterry: right, let me check the code to see how much added work it is/will be14:46
* ogra gives up ... mvo is to speedy :P14:46
jcastroasac: it is already (the game), so I'm going to go with -browser14:46
jcastroasac: right14:46
asacjcastro: please use -project14:46
mvopersia: good question :) it was never implemented in libapt I guess14:46
jcastrook14:46
asacchrome is the browser14:47
mvoit would be cool if it would show up as "Previsously suggested installs" or something like that14:47
mrxmikei feel ignored :(14:47
persiamterry: You've found an enhancement bug :)  libapt ought set selections permanently, as with dpkg --set-selection.s.14:47
asacmvo: is it a bug that when you run apt-get upgrade the recommends get marked as seen? e.g. a subsequent dist-upgrade wont install them?14:47
persiamrxmike: I'm looking up a wiki page for you, but haven't found it yet.14:48
jcastroasac: should we have a new team for all this or just use mozilla team?14:48
mrxmikepersia: ok, im patient ;)14:48
ogramrxmike, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages14:48
persiaYes.  That's it :)14:48
ogra:)14:48
asacjcastro: i dont mind. i would certainly hand over the ownership when such a team is founded14:48
mrxmikeok im after it, thanks guys14:48
asacjcastro: so we can go like we did for googlechrome for now14:48
mvoasac: yes, that sounds like one, but its not trivial to fix :/14:48
ogramrxmike, btw #ubuntu-motu is better for such stuff14:49
asacmvo: ok. thanks for confirming. so in the end recommends should be more strong about enforcing installs14:49
=== thekorn_ is now known as thekorn
* mok0 wonders if chromium could be built with our ubuntu version of Webkit15:06
pwnguinmok0: given that they appear to want to track webkit head, probably15:08
pwnguinit'd be a divergence from upstream though15:09
mok0pwnguin: agree15:09
asacwow. scons python part is _really_ CPU hungry15:10
mok0So, what's the status while I've been away, has a LP project been set up for GC??15:10
asacmok0: jcastro is on it. the imports will take a while for sure15:10
mok0asac: great!15:10
broonieasoc: There are some options you can twiddle if it's an issue15:11
asacbroonie: which option?15:12
asaci am just running scons Hammer ;)15:12
mok0https://edge.launchpad.net/googlechrome15:13
asacmok0: yes. thats just "chrome" tthough15:13
broonieasac: Decider() in SConscript is one of them.15:13
asacmok0: we need more15:13
mok0Actually, it's not called Google Chrome, but Google Chromium15:13
pwnguinyou sure?15:13
asacmok0: we create a chromium project now15:13
asacmok0: which hosts the several pieces: chrome, V8, ...15:13
mok0ah ok15:14
asacmok0: the project is called "chromium" ... the browser "chrome"15:14
asacthats my understanding at least15:14
asac(guessing from how the svn is structured)15:14
pwnguinso if i were to rebrand firefox as "chrome"15:14
Darklockah, so that is why the debian games team wants to change chromium to chromium-bsu :->15:15
asacthey want?15:16
asacbroonie: since you probably know scons a bit ... how can i tell scons to show me the command line the is run for compiling, linking and such`15:18
asac?15:18
broonieasac: I don't remember off the top of my head, sorry. Setting CC or LD to echo would work :/15:21
mok0Could it be built with ubuntu's scons instead of the local version?15:21
asacmok0: for me it works15:21
asacmok0: at least i end in the same nss error that you ;)15:22
mok0asac hehe15:22
mok0I filed bug 26471315:24
ubottuLaunchpad bug 264713 in ia32-libs "Please add libnss3" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26471315:24
pwnguinthese build instructions from google are a bit depressing15:24
mok0pwnguin: you mean the 64 bit stuff?15:25
pwnguini mean the part where they have a version of scons in revision control?15:25
mok0pwnguin: yeah, that's not the way we like it15:25
mok0pwnguin: apparently, building with ubuntu's scons works15:26
pwnguinpsh15:26
mok0pwnguin: we should find out which parts to pull out that are relevant for linux, and repackage that in the orig.tar.gz15:27
pwnguini keep seeing references to cygwin on the windows side, and thus far ive tried to ignore whatever insanity that way lies15:27
mvomterry: please give http://people.ubuntu.com/~mvo/tmp/update-manager-set-selections.diff a try15:35
mterrymvo: Will do, you speed demon, you15:35
=== beuno__ is now known as beuno
asacmok0: are you on 64bit?15:45
ScottKIf there's an archive-admin in the house, I'd really appreciate it if they would accept the subversion 1.5 backport in Hardy Backports.  I lot of people are wanting it due to archive format changes.15:45
ScottKIt's Bug #24751415:45
ubottuLaunchpad bug 247514 in hardy-backports "Please backport subversion subversion_1.5.1dfsg1-1ubuntu2 from intrepid" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/24751415:46
mterrymvo: It shows up, but isn't checked by default.15:46
HobbseeScottK: looks done already.15:47
mvomterry: ok, that is (for now) intentional15:48
mok0asac: yes15:48
asacmok0: thats the problem then15:48
asacmok0: try 32-bit15:48
asacmok0: everything is explicitly built with -m32 ... so the link against nss will fail15:48
asacand from what i can see the V8 engine isnt ready yet for 64-bit15:49
mok0asac: I am trying the guide on: http://groups.google.com/group/chromium-dev/browse_thread/thread/eeb1b3343b4cea6b?fwc=115:49
mterrymvo: Oh.  Why?15:50
asacmok0: you can do that yes.15:50
asacmok0: but its hackish15:50
mok0asac: sure is. I filed bug 26471315:50
ubottuLaunchpad bug 264713 in ia32-libs "Please add libnss3" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26471315:50
asacwe probably need to include nss and nspr in ia32-libs and then add kind of -dev package for 32bits15:51
mok0:-)15:51
asacmok0: right. but you also need a new -dev, or am i wrong?15:51
mok0asac: yeah you do; in the guide you just make the symlinks manually15:51
asacor a pkg-config nss3-32 ;)15:51
mvomterry: just to see if it works, if it gets stuff wrong, I don't wanted to mark it for install by default (as it may be wrong)15:51
asacmok0: let me know how far the build gets with those changes15:52
mok0asac: right15:52
=== superm1 is now known as superm1|away
mterrymvo: Fair.  Seems to work on my end.  If you end up satisfied with the result, please send me the final patch.  It would be useful for UNR (and eventually normal Ubuntu installer)15:53
mvomterry: UNR?15:55
mterrymvo: Ubuntu Netbook Remix15:55
mvoaha, cool15:55
mptpitti, what are the possible values of "Support status"?15:56
mok0asac: there's another issue with the missing symlink /usr/lib32/libstdc++.so15:59
pwnguinmok0: at some point, if everything you link to is 32bit, you're just building a 32bit binary16:04
mok0pwnguin: I know16:04
mok0pwnguin: wonder if it would build w/o the -m32 switch16:04
pwnguinyou've got a round hole but chrome is the square peg16:04
mok0pwnguin: It's beginning to look like it...16:05
mok0I now have had a couple of issues that are not in the posting16:05
pwnguineven if it did all work and build, what then?16:05
mok0   /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgcc16:05
mok0pwnguin: then I get to run some unit tests :-D16:07
pwnguinok, as long as you know where you're going ;)16:07
mok0pwnguin: it is still useful to get all the difficulties mapped out at this time16:07
mok0it would be great if the browser could appear in time for ii16:07
pwnguinwhat, you didn't like their listing?16:07
pwnguinii16:08
mok0Intrepid Ibex...16:08
pwnguinif i were you, I'd shoot for ubuntu+216:08
mok0Hah16:08
pwnguinas an optimistic goal16:08
mok0I am probably getting all psyked up here16:09
seb128mdz: hum, debian/patches/15_usplash.patch is still in the current gdm package I've here16:09
mptmok0, your enthusiasm is appreciated, having more browsers is a good thing16:09
mptbut on Linux at least, Chromium isn't a browser yet :-)16:09
mok0pwnguin: I guess the problem is that ubuntu doesn't really have a 32 dev environment for x86_64...16:10
mdzseb128: oh! I accidentally downloaded 2.20.7-3 source when I wanted 2.20.7-0ubuntu516:10
pwnguinive willfully neglected x86_6416:10
seb128mdz: ah ;-)16:10
mdzseb128: there must be something else wrong then, it still doesn't start usplash on shutdown16:10
pwnguinmok0: does multiarch work yet?16:11
mok0pwnguin: multiarch?16:11
pwnguinsounds like no16:11
mok0pwnguin: don't know what it is16:11
seb128mdz: right, I noticed that too but I'm not sure what is wrong and if that's due to gdm or usplash16:11
mdzseb128: does it work for you?16:11
seb128mdz: no16:11
mdzseb128: sorry for the confusion16:11
seb128no problem16:12
mdzseb128: I think at least some of these bugs are dupes but it is hard to tell16:12
seb128right, it would require some investigation16:12
seb128too many bugs to look at everything in details16:12
mdzseb128: I have a fresh intrepid kvm, I'll have a look16:12
mok0mpt: I think GC is going to work great on Linux, given the multiprocess design16:12
seb128mdz: maybe try to install the hardy gdm and see if that makes a difference16:12
pwnguinmok0: im not sold on multiprocess16:12
mok0mpt: and with multicore machines it will really rock16:13
mok0pwnguin: why?16:13
pwnguinif threads are also called light weight processes, this means regular processes are "heavy"16:13
mok0pwnguin: I'm not really sold on threads :-)16:13
mdzseb128: I'll also try to find out why usplash pulsates on bot16:14
mdzboot16:14
cjwatsonit might be better to examine the actual implementation rather than the name16:14
mdzit needs some love16:14
mptpitti?16:14
mok0pwnguin: Linux is really quick at creating processes16:14
mterrymvo: With your patch, after I did an update (but didn't install the "Previous Selected" package), further runs of update-manager don't show the package anymore16:14
mok0pwnguin: especially after 2.616:14
mptah, he's out16:14
mterrymvo: It prints it on the command line, but not in the UI16:14
mvomterry: oh, interessting. let me check16:15
pwnguinmok0: there's cache considerations as well, and memory mapping costs16:15
mok0Hmm. Any suggestions for the missing -lgcc?? I have the feeling it's the last one needed16:16
mok0pwnguin: If you created 1000's of processes, it might be noticable, but not with something O(10) like a browser16:16
mok0pwnguin: In my winxp virtual machine, tab creating is instantaneous16:17
mok0pwnguin: ... and linux is faster at creating a process than winxp16:18
pwnguinexactly how many tabs do you open, and how often?16:18
=== Yvonne_ is now known as Yvonne
cjwatsonthe "lightweight processes" name comes from OSes where creating processes has not been so ridiculously optimised16:18
mok0pwnguin: once a minute?16:18
cjwatsonpwnguin: you're the one who brought up processes being heavyweight ...16:18
jdstrandpitti: hi!16:19
pwnguintheres more to life than being born. similarly, theres more to processes than creation16:19
seb128kees: $ find . -name *.build | xargs grep "warning: format not" | wc -l16:19
seb12891616:19
seb128kees: that's my packaging directory16:19
mok0Threads make sense if you have a different type of process going on that you want to escape from, say a download window.16:19
jdstrandpitti: I recently saw that clamav was promoted to main, but was hoping that an enforcing apparmor would be a prerequisite for its inclusion16:20
pwnguinmok0: actually, processes make sense there, to me16:20
pwnguinthe benefit of threads is shared address space16:20
mok0For GC, the processes for each tab are identical; then there's a process that manages it all16:20
cjwatsonpwnguin: I think (a) you should hold off on serious comment until you've benchmarked, otherwise it's just blowing smoke (b) you may well find that the other benefits of memory separation between tabs outweigh some minor performance disadvantages16:20
jdstrandpitti: I talked with ScottK about it some, but this didn't happen before promotion.16:20
mok0cjwatson: easy, we are having a friendly chat here...16:21
cjwatsonI don't think it's unfriendly to say that serious discussion of performance should be based on genuine data16:21
cjwatsonthat's an axiom of performance engineering16:21
mok0kk16:21
jdstrandpitti: my plan is to provide a debdiff for it, then ScottK will check it with amavis-new, and then a FFe for it16:21
mok0Anyway, I am impressed with GC16:22
jdstrandpitti: I think it's really important considering its history and the nature of what it does16:22
mok0But I need to get the -lgcc problem solved16:22
pwnguincjwatson: before benchmarking, you should decide what's important to measure.16:22
cjwatsonpwnguin: sure, but when faced with a case where somebody apparently has done the benchmarking, it makes sense to find out more about what they did rather than ignoring it16:23
mok0cjwatson: interestingly, when looking at the gossip of the Internet, people come to wildly different results comparing GC to IE816:23
pwnguinhas someone done the benchmarking?16:23
cjwatsonGoogle, internally16:23
cjwatson(that much is fairly clear)16:23
mok0pwnguin: I've seen several referenced at digg16:23
pwnguini didnt get that impression16:23
pwnguinive seen some benchmarks of v816:23
mok0pwnguin: I think Google wants to do STUFF with javascript...16:24
iamfuzzslangasek, ping16:24
mok0pwnguin: so they need a really fast engine16:24
jdstrandpitti: also, it was brought to my attention that dbgsym packages are not created when going through -security in dak. has asac mentioned this to you? (this was noticed with the recent ff et al updates)16:25
iamfuzzpitti, or ping16:25
pwnguinmok0: and if they test v8 standalone, how does that reflect on the thread versus process choice?16:25
mok0pwnguin: don't knpw16:25
cjwatsonof course, the other major axiom of performance engineering is that correctness is more importance than performance16:26
pwnguini tell students that, but deep down i know it's not true16:26
cjwatsonGoogle may well simply have decided that correctness is unlikely to be achievable with threads when other people's code is concerned; I don't know many people who've read the POSIX threads spec who'd disagree :)16:26
mok0cjwatson: apparently, they've set up an automatic rendering system based on their cache of the internet16:26
mok0cjwatson: Given IE8 is also process based, it seems MS has come to the same conclusion16:27
pwnguintheres tons of research on bounding optimization problems while still terminating in our lifetimes16:27
mvomterry: hm, strnage. that seems to work for me, what is the output of "apt-cache policy pkgname" for that pkgname you put into --set-selections?16:28
* mok0 brain panic... rebooting16:28
pwnguinfrom what i can tell, google's decided that flash tanking a tab rather than a browser is worth the penalties in both CPU and RAM16:28
pwnguinI'm inclined to agree16:29
cjwatsonthey also included a bunch of stuff about fragmentation in their announcement though; I don't think the RAM penalties are as obvious as they seem in a naive analysis16:29
pwnguinthat fragmentation stuff was bogus16:29
ion_pwnguin: AFAIU, the tab is actually a separate process from the plugins running in it.16:29
mok0What is libgcc_s ??16:30
mok0ls16:31
mterrymvo: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/43371/16:31
cjwatsonpwnguin: that's a very bold declaration given that mozilla developers have attributed memory problems at least partially to the same cause16:32
keesseb128: yup, there are a lot of warnings to dig through -- not all are security issues, but they're all bugs.16:32
keesseb128: and in many ways, there's a reason I only set that to a warning.  :P16:32
seb128kees: right, just giving you some datas before you consider settings that as an error ;-)16:33
pwnguincjwatson: external fragmentation is a misfeature of conservative GC, but from what I've read, none of the major browsers use it for javascript16:33
mok0cjwatson: you mean, that the apparent memory leaks was in fact resulting from fragmentation (in mozilla)?16:33
cjwatsonpwnguin: I don't think I mentioned JavaScript16:34
cjwatsonhttp://blog.pavlov.net/2007/11/10/memory-fragmentation/ for example16:34
keesseb128: agreed :)16:35
seb128good ;-)16:35
seb128I've to go, see you later16:35
pwnguincjwatson: i'm pretty sure the comic mentioned how their javascript engine was fast because of incremental gc16:36
mok0pwnguin: I don't think it was only that16:36
cjwatsonpwnguin: javascript issues are separate from the benefits of separate processes for avoiding fragmentation16:37
mok0pwnguin: it is also using a JIT compilation16:37
pwnguinarg16:38
pwnguinhow's this for ironic? http://www.google.com/googlebooks/chrome/ doesn't work right in chrome16:38
mok0ha16:39
* mok0 boots up his winxp VM to test this assertion :-)16:40
asacthe mozilla JS engine also gets JIT this round16:41
asaci think its not yet enabled by default in the latest 3.1 alpha, but you can enable it using a build flag afair16:42
pwnguinok, well on rereading that fragmentation thing, it's kind of a bad argument that I misread. i thought it was talking about javascript, but it's about the general C++ problem16:43
pwnguinpersonally, i think processes is a bad solution, but if you need them anyways to isolate failure, i guess it's a neat win16:43
mdzcjwatson: bug 255008 seems to have regressed :-(16:44
ubottuLaunchpad bug 255008 in xorg-server "Up arrow key mapped to Print [screen]" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25500816:44
mok0pwnguin: I don't see anything wrong with that comic...16:44
mdzslangasek: ^^16:44
mpthi pitti16:45
pittihi mpt16:45
mptpitti, what are the possible values for "Support status"?16:46
pittimpt: ATM I have16:46
pittiTested by the %s developers16:46
pittiThird party driver, not tested by %s developers16:46
pittiThird party driver, tested by %s developers16:46
=== superm1|away is now known as superm1
ScottKHobbsee: I'd just uploaded it then, it may not have been there yet.  I have waiting for approval, but no indication it was accepted.16:46
pitti(wording improvements appreciated)16:46
pittimpt: I want to differ between Ubuntu supplied drivers, ubuntu certified third-party drivers, and community drivers without any stamp on them16:47
cjwatsonmdz: in kvm, or outside?16:47
mptpitti, ok, next question: What are the possible values for "License"?16:47
cjwatsonpwnguin: it's hardly a C++ problem16:47
mdzcjwatson: I tested in kvm, but a submitter of a dupe doesn't mention it being in kvm16:47
pittimpt: "Free" and "Proprietary"; for the latter I enable the License button if the driver has a license text associated with it (as for e. g. the ones in openprinting.org)16:48
mptpitti, I didn't know Free drivers showed up in this window at all16:49
pittimpt: they are supposed to, yes16:49
pwnguincjwatson: sure. the same problem can happen with malloc as it can with new ;)16:49
mdzcjwatson: and only when I forget the -k switch, argh16:49
pittimpt: and in fact, with the recent addition of looking for drivers on openprinting.org, that actually works, too16:49
mptneat16:52
mptpitti, when a third-party driver has not been tested by the %s developers, is it always because it's proprietary? Or are there other reasons?16:54
pittimpt: it's not tied to the license16:54
pittimpt: if we have a driver in the ubuntu repo, it is the first case16:55
pittimpt: if the driver is from openprinting.org, it is the third16:55
mptahhhh16:55
pittimpt: erm, second case, I mean16:55
mptSo an openprinting.org driver might be Free, but not reviewed16:55
pittimpt: and if our QA tests and blesses it, we can put a stamp on it and set it to the third case16:55
pittimpt: exactly16:56
pittimpt: we don't have a vehicle to bless drivers from openprinting.org, BTW, but we will with the upcoming online distro driver db16:56
pitti(nothing to worry about for intrepid, so we just have the first two strings for now)16:56
mptI'm thinking of putting the review status into the description pane, similar to the maintenance status in Add/Remove Programs and Synaptic16:57
pittimpt: it could also be a driver which a community member ships in a PPA16:57
mptand wondering whether it would be appropriate to put the license info in there too16:57
mptthat would make it less visible16:57
mptso more awkward for someone who really wants to have only Free drivers16:57
pittimpt: entirely doable, of course, but I'd like to put an emphasis on at least the support status16:57
pittimpt: btw, jockey has a mode to only present restricted or only free drivers16:58
pittibut not switchable in the UI yet, just a CLI argument16:58
mpthm16:58
pittimpt: they could become the first two lines in the description panel, but that wouldn't save a lot of space and might be more difficult to read?16:58
mptpitti, I was thinking at the end, like with the maintenance status16:59
pittimpt: hm, it might get scrolled off the visible text part17:02
mptexactly17:02
mptso if it's important stuff, it shouldn't be at the bottom like that17:03
dholbachUbuntu Developer Week Sessions start now: #ubuntu-classroom17:03
mptthe question is how important it is17:03
mptpitti, where a driver has been reviewed by Ubuntu developers, why would someone care whether it's an Ubuntu driver or a third-party one?17:03
pittimpt: they probably wouldn't, right17:04
pittimpt: so maybe we could drop the "Third party driver" part17:04
* pitti is dragged to dinner, bbl17:04
pittimpt: I'll catch up here later17:04
mptok, thanks for your answers :-)17:05
pittimpt: thanks muchly for your input17:05
IntuitiveNippleI've just added sys file-system support to qemu/kvm, but to make it accessible to users it will need a udev group ownership set on /dev/bus/usb/* devices. I was wondering if "plugdev" would be an appropriate group, or create a new one? I don't think kvm/qemu should have to run as root to access USB devices.17:08
anilgis this the right place for an aptitude package question17:19
anilga build issue.17:19
LaserJockwhat package(s) would be responsible for resume/suspend?17:20
azeemuh-oh :)17:20
mptLaserJock, my almost-entirely-uninformed guess would be acpi-support17:21
LaserJocksuspend/resume stopped working for me (requires hard reboot)17:21
IntuitiveNippleLaserJock: pm-utils ?17:21
LaserJockinitially I thought maybe it was .26 -> .27 kernel issue but I reboot with with .26 and got the same thing17:21
IntuitiveNippleLaserjock: Do you have the uvcvideo module set to be unloaded on suspend? That's a well-known culprit :)17:22
cjwatsonpitti: tested by the %s developers> you know that may be a translation problem?17:23
LaserJockIntuitiveNipple: how would I know?17:23
LaserJockthe screen goes blank and the keyboard no longer responds, but it seems like it's still running (I see occasional hard drive LED flashes)17:24
IntuitiveNippleLaserJock: check /etc/default/acpi-support for  MODULES="uvcvideo" and similar17:25
LaserJockIntuitiveNipple: MODULES is empty17:26
IntuitiveNippleI've also found recently one of the USB drivers hangs things, so I add that too (commentary says USB drivers are unloaded, but they aren't any longer)17:26
cjwatsonpitti: in French, something like "par les developpers d'Ubuntu" (or whatever the word for developers is) vs. "par les developpers de Fedora" ... at least potentially, not sure if French translators would actually translate it that way17:26
IntuitiveNippleLaserJock: does the PC have uvcvideo loaded ? If so, add it to that setting and it'll be unloaded on suspend17:26
cjwatsonpitti: you'll also need to take into account cases where the word "Ubuntu" is translated17:27
LaserJockIntuitiveNipple: lsmod says ucvideo is loaded, I'll give it a try17:27
IntuitiveNippleDo we have a 'recommended' group for giving VMs access to system services?17:29
LaserJockIntuitiveNipple: yeah, that didn't help :)17:31
IntuitiveNippleLaserJock: Possibly the USB module I mentioned... let me dig out which one it is17:31
IntuitiveNippleLaserJock: I *think* it was "ehci_hcd" or "hci_usb", but I'd have to trawl to find it.17:33
jdongthose hurt a lot more to unload :)17:33
IntuitiveNippleI only noticed it recently with a Hardy issue.17:34
ograLaserJock, /etc/default/acpi-support isnt used since hardy anymore17:34
LaserJockdon't tell me I have to edit some HAL .fdi file :-)17:35
ograLaserJock, you want /etc/pm/config.d ... create a file in there (i.e. "default") and put in: SUSPEND_MODULES="uvcvideo"17:35
ograthat would unload uvcvideo on suspend and reload it on resume17:36
IntuitiveNippleogra: Some systems do have it, especially those that upgraded. Best thing is to check if the /etc/rc2.d/S99acpi-support symlink is there17:37
ograthat would be a massive bug then17:37
ograthere should have been a transition from acpi-support to pm-utils17:38
IntuitiveNippleLaserjock indicated that the /etc/default/acpi-support file was present so the package appears to be installed17:38
ogra(but i dont maintain powermanagement stuff anymore luckily ... so i dont know if the transition went properly)17:38
ograsure17:38
ograbut that doesnt mean its used17:38
IntuitiveNippleindeed, hence the rc2.d question. Thinking about it, he didn't say what release he's using :)17:39
LaserJockhmm, same17:41
LaserJockogra: do you have to restart anything after making a file in /etc/pm/config.d/ ?17:41
keesdholbach: thank you again for harvest.  made finding fedora's un-upstreamed patches for dvd+rw-tools a snap.  :)17:41
IntuitiveNippleI have the pm-utils settings, with /etc/pm/config.d/modules_unloads with the contents SUSPEND_MODULES="iwl3945 r5u870 uvcvideo ehci_hcd"17:41
dholbachkees: gracias :)17:41
dholbachkees: or.... "thanks for the flowers"17:42
ograLaserJock, no, pm-suspend will just use it17:42
pitticjwatson: tricky indeed; we have a similar case in the dialog title, too; thanks for pointing out17:42
pittijdong: known to me, and I mailed infinity about it the other day17:43
pittiiamfuzz: hi17:43
keesdholbach: hehe, you're welcome.  :)   actually, if I click on "mark reviewed", harvest falls over17:43
keesdholbach: i.e. I'm here: http://daniel.holba.ch/harvest/handler.py?pkg=dvd+rw-tools  and I'm clicking the wctomb patch17:43
dholbachkees: can you send a patch? .... bug report? :-)17:44
dholbachkees: I'll dive into it probably tomorrow or next week, quite busy17:44
=== mcasadevall_ is now known as NCommander
NCommanderkees, so I discovered a rather interesting pain in building a PIEd compiler due to circular dependencies on glibc, libgmp, and libgcc :-)17:45
keesdholbach: sure17:45
dholbachthanks kees17:45
keesNCommander: heh17:45
NCommanderkees, I did make the right call though, GCC can't be built PIEd with your wrapper because of its bootstrapping methodology, you need to manually set the CFLAGS17:46
mdzdoes anyone know if there's a bug filed about the intermittent usplash pulsating during boot?17:46
LaserJockIntuitiveNipple: SUSPEND_MODULES="iwl3945 uvcvideo ehci_hcd" didn't work either17:46
keesmdz: I thought that was an intentional change by pitti during the fsck17:47
IntuitiveNippleLaserJock: There might be other modules responsible (check lsmod and guess!) or it might be that something else entirely is the cause. Might need to enable ACPI debugging17:48
mdzkees: was it?  it doesn't look right17:48
mdzand it happens even when no fsck is required17:48
LaserJockIntuitiveNipple: darn, I was hoping for an easy fix17:48
mdzpitti: is it true?17:48
IntuitiveNippleLaserJock: suspend/resume is rarely easy!17:49
keesmdz: I cannot confirm it was intentional, or that is is the fsck and it goes by very quickly, but that is what I suspect.17:49
IntuitiveNipplemdz: do you have a moment to give some guidance on LP bug #156085 (sys fs for kvm/qemu etc.) ?17:50
ubottuLaunchpad bug 156085 in kvm "Could not open /proc/bus/usb/devices" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15608517:50
mdzIntuitiveNipple: how can I help?17:50
mdzkees: confirmed, it calls splash_start_indefinite before fsck17:51
keesmdz: okay, cool.17:51
IntuitiveNipplemdz: In the bug you pointed to a patch at Novell, and I've taken that as a basis and added sys fs support on top of existing /proc/ and dev/ support. I just need some guidance on group ownership for the usb devices which are currently root:root since otherwise kvm/qemu will have to run as root. I looked at plugdev, but wondered about a new one for all VMs, maybe "vm" or "virtualmachines"17:52
mdzIntuitiveNipple: pitti is the person to talk to about that; it's recently changed quite a bit17:52
IntuitiveNipplemdz: Ok, thanks.17:53
IntuitiveNipplepitti: over to you when you're free :)17:53
ograIntuitiveNipple, there is also a patch on bug 15918917:53
ubottuLaunchpad bug 159189 in usbutils "lsusb : Fix or remove -t option" [Low,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15918917:53
ograthat might give some hints17:53
IntuitiveNippleogra: Can't see anything about permissions in there.17:57
pittimdz, IntuitiveNipple: linux foundation conf call, can we talk later?17:57
=== cr3_ is now known as cr3
pittiIntuitiveNipple: in short, /dev/kvm uses the 'kvm' group; we didn't change that, kvm isn't PolicyKitified ATM17:58
ograIntuitiveNipple, no, but about switching from usbfs to sysfs17:58
pittiIntuitiveNipple: anyway, will read backlog later17:58
IntuitiveNipplepitti: thanks, yeah, shout me when you're free17:58
IntuitiveNippleogra: The support for sys fs is done, its just a case of correct permissions to allow non-root access to the USB devices in /dev/bus/usb/*/*17:59
ograah, k17:59
IntuitiveNippleogra: I was just thinking whilst I'm at it, adopt a generic group that can be used for all VMs such as kvm, qemu, vbox, etc/18:00
* ogra doesnt ude vbox with usb support ... so i cant judge that ... 18:01
IntuitiveNippleThe biggest gripe currently is lack of decent USB support, and now it's coming through from upstream it would be good to support it as painlessly as possible18:01
ograand i only use vbox usually, so i cant judge the others ... soren would be the right person for general virtualization discussions i think18:02
IntuitiveNippleyeah, good point. I'll email him18:02
slangasekmdz: 255008> yes, I see that Jan Rathmann has appeared now - good, he had linked this bug from his ISO testing but I couldn't find him18:11
mdzslangasek: my reproduction of it seems to have been bogus; it is actually the kvm/evdev issue I stumbled on18:11
mdzslangasek: it's working OK for me on real hardware atm18:11
slangasekiamfuzz: pong18:14
iamfuzzsladen, got cprov helping me, thx18:14
slangasekmdz: ok, thanks for the info18:14
Cycomare bugfixes still taking place for 8.04?18:23
mdzslangasek: I filed bug 264696 and bug 264767 as visual issues which should nonetheless be fixed before final18:24
ubottuLaunchpad bug 264696 in gnome-session "usplash is not started on shutdown/reboot" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26469618:24
ubottuLaunchpad bug 264767 in sysvinit "usplash pulsates intermittently during boot" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26476718:24
mdzCycom: yes, but selectively (only high-impact / low-risk backports)18:25
Cycommdz: I ask because there is a bug, possibly in evdev, possibly in kernel, for 8.04  that was closed as 'fix released' because the bug doesn't appear in 8.10.18:27
CycomBasically, when you click and hold your mouse, instead of a mousedown event, hold, mouseup, it sends a stream of mousedown events.  This prevents you from doing things like click and drag, etc. Is that high impact enough to reopen?18:28
keesdholbach: say, can you replace the universe-contributors icon with this one, which has transparency: http://outflux.net/wrench_emblem-trans.png18:29
dholbachkees: can you ask in #ubuntu-motu - in UDW session right now18:29
tormodwhere is udev maintained? the bzr branches on launchpad are all very old18:30
keesdholbach: ah, sure, thanks.18:30
RainCTmvo: ping18:31
mptpitti, I've e-mailed you my sketches -- the bottom is what I think it probably should look like18:33
mptpitti, let me know if that should be on the wiki anywhere18:35
pittimpt: thanks18:42
pittiIntuitiveNipple: re18:43
pittiIntuitiveNipple: so, what's your Q?18:43
IntuitiveNipplepitti: emailed :)18:43
pittiIntuitiveNipple: I saw the response to bug 156085, if you mean that18:44
ubottuLaunchpad bug 156085 in kvm "Could not open /proc/bus/usb/devices" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15608518:44
slangasekcody-somerville: looks like more coverage is still needed for xubuntu amd64?18:44
IntuitiveNipplepitti: I emailed you and Soren a few minutes ago18:45
slangasek_MMA_: ping, now that we have a kernel, is UbuntuStudio looking good for alpha-5?18:45
IntuitiveNipplepitti: your ubuntu.com address18:45
slangasek_MMA_: and if so, is someone working on ISO testing?18:45
pittiIntuitiveNipple: ok, will reply soon, thanks18:46
mdzCycom: generally speaking, we make most bugfixes available through our new releases18:46
_MMA_slangasek: I am as much as I can atm. Im starting a new job today and am a bit busy with preppin' for that. Ill make sure someone is on it.18:46
mdzCycom: we only backport bugfixes to an existing release in certain cases where it's justified18:46
slangasek_MMA_: ok - when you have someone on it, can you put them in touch with me, so I know where we are in the test cycle?18:47
_MMA_SUre.18:47
unstableIs there a dbus event for detecting whether or not a cable is plugged into my ubuntu machine?18:48
unstableI don't run gnome, I have some custom scripts that run, and I want to be alerted when a cable plugs into my ubuntu machine, anyone that can help/advise me on the best way to be alerted?18:48
pittiunstable: ITYM an ethernet cable? :-)18:48
unstableyea, ethernet cable18:49
mdzslangasek: I didn't reopen 255008 because I'm not sure what to do with it18:49
mdzslangasek: I think maybe my original impulse of directing him to his own bug and un-duping was perhaps the right course18:49
pittiunstable: network-manager reacts to this, I'm fairly sure it just listens to a hal event18:50
pittiunstable: I don't know it off the back of my hand, but try running "dbus-monitor --system" and plug in the cable, and see what happens18:51
pittimpt: it looks nice and clean; the only thing I don't really like is putting the license and status into the bottom part of the text field, since it scrolls off18:55
pittimpt: so you entirely want to get rid of the enabled/disabled colums in the tree view?18:55
slangasekmdz: right; I don't see any clearly better options18:55
calcslangasek: when will the archive be safe to upload again, any idea?18:56
calci'm planning on doing an OOo upload right after the cds are done18:56
pittimpt: s/license and status/license and support status/18:56
slangasekcalc: we still have a number of outstanding tests, I think it would be best if you assumed "tomorrow"18:57
pittimpt: also, I think it is at least currently not feasible to entirely merge enabling and "in use"18:57
calcslangasek: ok thats fine :18:58
calc:)18:58
calcslangasek: i assume its safe to do when the email announcement goes out as well?18:58
slangasekyes18:58
calcok18:58
calcif i happen to see it before then i will upload at that time18:58
mptpitti, I think it would be useful to have an icon-only in-use column, using (smaller versions of) the same icons as the explicit in-use-or-not text underneath18:58
mptpitti, I'm sorry, I've forgotten what the difference is between "enabled" and "in use"18:59
pittimpt: enabled -> install this driver and allow it to be used19:00
pitti'in use' -> driver is used by some hardware right now19:01
pittimpt: e. g. install the nvidia driver -> enabled, but not in use19:01
mptah19:01
pittirestart X -> enabled an in use19:01
mpthm19:01
pittihave a broadcom wifi19:01
mptpitti, do you always need to restart the computer for a driver to become in use?19:01
mptor to become enabled?19:01
pittimpt: no, most kernel modules "just work"19:02
mptok...19:02
pittie. g. the b43 firmware, too19:02
pittimpt: however, you always need a computer restart to disable a driver19:02
knixYou need to start X for a new graphics driver19:02
mptpitti, so whether a driver is in use is interesting information for deciding whether it should be enabled19:02
pittie. g. uninstall nvidia -> disabled, but still in use19:02
pittireboot -> disabled and not in use19:02
mptoh, I see19:03
mvoRainCT: pong19:03
mpthmmmmm19:04
mptThe problem is that whether something is "enabled" usually isn't something humans are interested in19:05
pittimpt: I hate this very technical distinction as well, but we are kind oof stuck with it19:05
mptUsually it can be reworded in a way that humans are interested in19:05
mptBut in this case, I'm not sure19:05
mptWhat is the effect of a driver that is enabled but never used?19:06
pittimpt: people might disable nonfree drivers because they don't like them, or so19:06
pittimpt: it just won't work, and just sit there19:06
mptDoes it make the computer slower?19:06
pittino, it won't,just takes disk space19:06
pittiand of course could create political issues19:06
mptsure19:07
pittihaving the nvidia proprietary driver isntalled and not in use is already bad in some cases19:07
mptWhat effects does that have?19:07
pittiwell, you get infested with non-free software :)19:07
pitti(which is why we don't install those by default)19:07
mptbut just to be clear here19:08
mptThis Hardware Drivers window doesn't actually install and uninstall drivers, does it?19:08
pittiit does19:08
mptIt does?19:08
mptoh.19:08
pittisure, it installs the packages, configures xorg.conf for nvidia, etc.19:09
pittior, if you disable a driver, it uninstalls packages again19:09
pittior, e. g. for the broadcom case, it instlals/removes the firmware19:09
pitti(the kernel module is shipped by default, nothing is installed there)19:09
mptSo a driver can be * not installed at all, * installed but blocked from ever being used, * installed but not used right at the moment, * installed and used right now.19:10
mptIs that accurate?19:10
mptOr is the second option impossible in the package management scheme?19:11
tseliot1mpt: if you blacklist a kernel module then yes19:12
tseliot1it is possible19:12
mptok19:14
mptSo, my design is mostly wrong19:15
tseliot1mpt: the "In use" label covered this case too19:17
slangasekit's possible that someone can blacklist a kernel module, but is that something that's meant to be handled through this interface?19:18
emgent`nlgood evening19:19
mptI guess the correct design will occasionally feature the sentence "This driver is turned on but not currently being used."19:20
* mpt needs to think about this more :-)19:20
tseliot1slangasek: this is exactly what I was about to ask. AFAIK you can't do that in Jockey (yet) but I don't see why you couldn't. It wouldn't be difficult to implement.19:20
LaserJockogra: hmm, it turns out my laptop also acts funny when the screensaver is activated19:20
tseliot1emgent`nl: good evening19:20
slangasektseliot1: I'm not sure why it's desirable to implement; adding to the list of available states complicates the UI, if nothing else19:21
emgent`nlheya tseliot1 :)19:21
LaserJockso does suspend,hibernate, and the screensaver all get tied together somewhere? gnome-power-manager perhaps?19:21
slangasekLaserJock: yes, g-p-m touches all of the above19:21
LaserJockslangasek: ok, interesting19:21
tseliot1slangasek: I said that I didn't see the reason why you couldn't, not the reason why you shouldn't ;)19:21
LaserJockfor a while g-p-m was crashing a lot19:22
LaserJockafter updates it's not crashing, but I get a unusable computer ;-)19:22
slangasektseliot1, superm1: do you think either of you could give me a release-noteable blurb about why DKMS is good for users?19:27
superm1slangasek, yeah i suppose i could.  how soon do you need it?19:28
slangaseksuperm1: if you have it for me today it goes in the alpha-5 technical overview, if you don't, it doesn't :)19:29
superm1slangasek, okay i'll try to write a short snippet this afternoon19:29
ScottKslangasek: Would you have a moment to accept the subversion backport in hardy-backports?  Due to archive incompatibilities I think it's important to get it out the door.  It's Bug #24751419:32
ubottuLaunchpad bug 247514 in hardy-backports "Please backport subversion subversion_1.5.1dfsg1-1ubuntu2 from intrepid" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/24751419:32
pittimpt: re19:34
pittimpt: right, 2 can happen as well; also, if you have a driver isntalled which does not match any installed hardware19:35
slangasekScottK: done19:36
ScottKslangasek: Thanks.19:38
superm1slangasek, how's this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/43439/19:39
tseliot1+1 to superm1's description19:54
jdstrandpitti: hi! did you see my earlier queston re: dbgsym and dak?19:58
pittihey jdstrand19:58
pittiyes, I thuoght I answered?19:59
jdstrandoh, I must have missed it :)19:59
pittijdstrand: oh, about clamav and apparmor? sorry, I missed that19:59
jdstrandpitti: the apparmor/clamav was more of a commentary/plan20:00
pittijdstrand: argh, completion error; [18:43]     pitti| jdong: known to me, and I mailed infinity about it the other day20:00
pittisorry, jdong20:01
jdongno worries :)20:01
jdstrandpitti: ok cool. thanks!20:01
jdstrandasac: ^20:01
balachmartkamppeter: So it is fine if I would use the patch to fix the bug 258421? Just wanted to make sure. (BTW I will read the logs to find out your answer :) ) Then I will make that my first attempt to fixing a bug.20:05
ubottuLaunchpad bug 258421 in gtk+2.0 "GTK apps should send PDF to CUPS when printing" [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25842120:05
=== Cycom_ is now known as Cycom
pittimpt: hm, so shall I take your proposal with retaining the enabled/in use columns in the treeview for now?20:12
mptpitti, I have the wording wrong and might be missing some elements20:13
mptbecause I was confused about enabled vs. in use20:13
mptpitti, do you want to get this finished quickly, or can it wait till tomorrow?20:13
pittimpt: oh, it can definitively wait some days20:13
pittimpt: I'm hacking in the code, and the thing I'm working on is not blocked on this20:13
pittialso, I'm about to go to bed soon anyway20:14
mptok20:14
pittimpt: thanks a lot!20:14
Cycommdz: I got home and saw your comments from earlier.  While I understand that the new releases are the primary vehicle for bugfixes, the new release isn't out yet, or even BETA yet.  To write off a bug as FIXED in an existing release, especially a LTS release, seems worriesome.20:16
=== jussi01_ is now known as jussi01
blisto1hey, anyone know why the gnome file browser no longer gives an option for authentication info for samba shares?20:27
blisto1This is killing our 300 users.20:27
blisto1Worked up until a few weeks ago.20:27
pittigood night everyone20:27
cody-somervilleslangasek, I have some folks who say they're working on it20:29
slangaseksuperm1: thanks, I think I'll try to find a way to say the same thing in fewer words, but that's a good starting point :)20:57
superm1slangasek, that was actually already a reduction from what i wrote :)20:57
slangasek:-)20:57
sebnerseb128: ahoi! I was looking for you :D21:08
seb128hi sebner21:08
sebnerseb128: I just saw your gdm update21:08
seb128which one?21:09
seb128the new version in intrepid?21:09
sebnerseb128: yep21:09
seb128any issue there?21:09
sebnerseb128: it's a stable new upstream. I thought gdm rewrite is finished with gnome 2.24 and I was wondering why you don't update to latest developement release 2.23.90 (too dangerous) ?21:10
seb128sebner: read the discussions on the upstream mailing list, I posted a summary of the issues the new version has in my opinion there some weeks ago, also note that GNOME didn't decide to use the new version either21:11
seb128sebner: one issue is that the new version has no graphical configuration tool, so either you use gconf to change option or you don't21:11
sebnerseb128: so new target is 2.26?21:11
seb128it also has no xdmcp, no graphical themes, etc21:11
seb128sebner: GNOME is discussing it at the moment21:12
seb128read the upstream lists for details21:12
sebnerseb128: so the rewrite seems not really finished =)21:12
seb128sebner: do you think we should update?21:12
seb128well, it's working, but it's less flexible than the previous version21:12
seb128since there is no strong advantage in the new code I don't see a reason to hurry in something which is less flexible and tested21:13
sebnerseb128: well shouldn't a rewrite (started with 2.20 I think) be *better* than the old one? ^^21:13
seb128sebner: the code is better and it's getting there for sure, I just think it's not there yet21:13
seb128maybe next cycle21:14
sebnerseb128: kk, just wanted to know that. thx for the infos :)21:14
seb128you're welcome21:14
=== superm1 is now known as superm1|away
RainCTit's a bit off-topic but, does someone know how I can align the text in a GtkLabel to the right?21:27
IntuitiveNippleRainCT: How about gtk_misc_set_alignment() ?21:29
RainCTIntuitiveNipple: that's it. Thanks!21:31
IntuitiveNipplecool21:32
dokoubuntu-archive: please could you reject libppl from the NEW queue? I'd like to reupload with the different debian .orig.tar.gz21:51
slangasekdoko: done21:52
seb128slangasek: is main still supposed to be frozen?21:53
slangasekseb128: yes... :)21:54
slangasekseb128: the risk of us having to do a re-roll is low, but yes, we're still frozen21:54
seb128slangasek: alright, I've some slightly disruptive change I would like to upload tomorrow morning (lib soname change which some rdepends), maybe it'll be unfrozen by then though ;-)21:55
seb128there is a new GNOME again on monday coming, yeah for an another updates sprint ;-)21:56
slangasekyes, by tomorrow morning if it's not unfrozen, then I'm having a bad day21:56
seb128kees: are you around?21:58
seb128kees: is there any easy way to see if those warnings are a security issue or not?21:58
stefanlsd_seb128: I made the diff.gz for pidgin if you would like to take a look - https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/26361221:58
ubottuLaunchpad bug 263612 in pidgin "[needs-upgrade] Pidgin 2.5.1" [Wishlist,In progress]21:59
seb128stefanlsd_: intrepid is frozen and it's late so tomorrow21:59
stefanlsd_seb128: np21:59
keesseb128: basically, if the string being printed contains anything from outside the program.22:00
kees.22:00
seb128kees: or, so if you can pass random datas there22:00
keesseb128: most of the false alarms I've seen are printing out localized msgs22:00
slangasek_MMA_: heno reported a debootstrap failure with UbuntuStudio alpha5, bug #264804; is anyone else seeing this?22:00
keesseb128: right.22:00
ubottuLaunchpad bug 264804 in debian-installer "[intrepid alpha 5] ubuntu studio i386 install fails at debboostrap" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26480422:00
tkamppeterhi balachmar22:00
seb128kees: thanks22:01
keesseb128: most of the time coders just forget to add the "%s" before what they're adding to a function that eventually uses sprintf.22:01
keesseb128: sure, let me know if you see any that are iffy or weird.22:02
seb128right, that's those I usually22:02
seb128kees: most of those are22:02
seb128gchat *text;22:03
seb128text = g_strdup("some text");22:03
seb128gtk_message_dialog (...., text)22:03
seb128where it should be ... "%s", text22:03
tkamppeterpersia. seb128, can someone of you give me the e-mail address of balachmar? I need yo contact him, he visits the IRC only for some minutes when I am not here.22:03
keesyeah, or   if (something) { text = _("Some error"); } else { text = _("Another error"); }22:03
keesseb128: most of the "real" problems have been when e.g. a filename or URI is included in the message.22:04
seb128tkamppeter: I don't know his email22:04
jdstrandkees: how often have you seen these false positives?22:05
seb128kees: I see, thanks, I'll start patching those when I do updates22:05
keesseb128: great, thanks muchly.22:05
seb128jdstrand: as I was saying before, that's my build directory22:06
seb128$ find . -name *.build | xargs grep "warning: format not" | wc -l22:06
seb12891622:06
seb128jdstrand: so there is lot of those in GNOME22:06
jdstrandseb128: right, I saw that-- I was just curious cause kees did an archive rebuild at one point22:06
keesjdstrand: I haven't done a huge analysis yet, but on a rough guess, I'd say about 1/5th of the packages that throw the error are vulnerable.22:06
seb128utch22:06
keesbut that's just a wild guess22:06
jdstrandsure22:06
seb128good idea to clean those then ;-)22:06
seb128some have already annoyed me22:07
jdstrandbut that is a high false positive rate, even if you are off by a bunch22:07
seb128GNOME tends to use -Werror in svn so builds break in intrepid22:07
keesand for a vulnerable one, there are 15 warnings and only 1 is an issue.22:07
seb128it seems those don't trigger warning on other distros though22:07
seb128so upstream didn't notice22:07
keesseb128: yeah, I knew these compiler defaults were going to cause a lot of pain (which is why I've been trying really hard to document them and fix ones I see)22:08
keesseb128: additionally, I didn't want to do build-bumps just to get things recompiled -- we've got enough pain.  :)22:08
seb128right22:08
keesmy hope is to get the bulk of the archive rebuilt with hardening before the next LTS22:08
jdstrandI think that should be doable22:09
NCommanderkees, well, I had a setback, but I'm on the right path now, I had to redo the Linux from Scratch chroot22:10
keesNCommander: heh, cool22:10
keeswell, cool that you worked it out, not that you hit glitches.22:11
NCommanderThe big issue is that I screwed up the linker22:11
kees:)22:11
NCommanderand I tried to use Ubuntu sources22:11
NCommanderI'm going to work from baseline known to build sources, then rebuild larger with the Ubuntu source code22:11
ScottKNCommander: You're indi fix looks good.  I'm just waiting for slangasek to announce Main is open for business to upload it.22:11
NCommander\o/22:11
* NCommander is a porter22:11
NCommanderweee22:11
NCommanderKinda a weird concept on ubuntu since no one realizes our ports exist22:12
slangasekthis is better than being a stout22:12
seb128kees: so for example gedit has:22:12
seb128message = g_strdup_printf (_("The file \"%s\" is read-only."),22:12
seb128   name_for_display);22:12
NCommandersladen, stout?22:12
seb128dialog = gtk_message_dialog_new (....message);22:12
NCommanderer, slangasek ^22:12
ScottKNCommander: Beer reference.22:12
seb128kees: that could be leading to a crash or something22:12
NCommanderah, me and my lack of /dev/alchocalism strikes again22:12
keesseb128: correct.  that is potentially exploitable, but very hard to trigger.  ("user-assisted" as we call it.)22:13
seb128kees: alright, I'll not bother too much I think, just clean those on the way and send patches upstream22:13
seb128kees: I'm not sure what made the yelp one a security issue though22:14
NCommanderScottK, as an side, was I right about the kde4bindings issue w.r.t. to mono on lpia?22:14
keesseb128: it was that firefox uses yelp as a handler for man:// and info://, and doesn't show the URL when asking the user to open yelp22:14
ScottKNCommander: I haven't got to that one yet.  I checked indi first.22:14
NCommanderAh22:15
keesso, clicking a link on a page could lead to a format attack without much user interaction.  it was still considered "low" priority.22:15
seb128kees: still that should be nothing exploitable, yelp is a local application so that could only lead to crash it no?22:15
RiddellNCommander: did you manage to look at koffice?22:15
NCommanderRiddell, I've built it, did some research, I can kick out a fix for it when main unfreezes22:17
Riddellgreat, thanks NCommander22:17
seb128NCommander: so you work on ubuntu, kubuntu and xubuntu now?22:17
NCommanderPretty much22:17
NCommanderGive me time, I'll do work on Studio too22:17
jdstrandScottK: what is the recommended way of integrating amavis-new with clamav in intrepid? (a wiki link or whatever is fine)22:17
NCommanderAnd Mythbuntu getting installed on something when I find cheap hardware22:18
seb128NCommander: ;-)22:18
seb128NCommander: I've uploaded pangomm today btw, I'll get pitti to review it tomorrow22:18
keesseb128: it would be very hard to exploit, but it could still lead to arbitrary code execution.22:18
seb128kees: alright, I think that was enough question for today, thanks for reply to those!22:18
keesseb128: using %n and other carefully selected items, an attack can target specific areas of memory, and gain control of the execution flow.22:18
keesseb128: heh, no problem, I'm happy to answer them.22:19
NCommanderseb128, I consider myself a jack of all trades. All derievates on all architectures I can access22:20
NCommanderOr in other words, if its broke, I can fix it, or I know the guy who can fix it :-)22:20
seb128:-)22:21
NCommander(the sole exception ATM is gcl. I don't touch packages who's patch files are 5 times the size of the 15MB source package)22:21
ScottKjdstrand: I just looked and my notes are not at all where I thought they were.  So working from memory, you have to do some config file editing.   The most common one I see people use is http://www200.pair.com/mecham/spam/22:21
seb128NCommander: so you would touch openoffice? ;-)22:21
NCommanderseb128, built it from source once or twice22:21
slangasekdear God, why22:21
NCommanderslangasek, same reason I want Ubuntu on Alpha22:21
jdstrandScottK: ok-- I was going to try it out to give it at least a shot at working out of the box :)22:22
NCommanderI like pain, or a challenge22:22
slangasekyou hate the planet?22:22
slangasekoh22:22
ScottKGreat.22:22
NCommanderThat being said, I'm not going to be coding new features for it :-P22:22
NCommanderBut I'll fix build failures22:22
NCommanderslangasek, no, just driving you insane with an alpha port ;-).22:22
slangasekno reason it would bother me22:23
NCommanderargh22:23
NCommanderbah, so much for driving people crazy22:23
NCommanderseb128, given my recent work on bootstrapping and fixing nutty FTBFS, I'm keeping a blog about it22:26
NCommanderseb128, you can watch my descent into true insanity in real time22:26
slangasekNCommander: I can think of more noble hobbies than trying to drive people crazy...22:26
seb128NCommander: you should become an ubuntu member and be on planet ubuntu ;-)22:26
NCommanderseb128, I plan to apply after two months have passed22:26
seb128NCommander: btw pangomm will probably be accepted tomorrow, is gtkmm 2.13 ready? ;-)22:27
NCommanderslangasek, I'm just multitasking. I drive myself crazy already, but I have enough free time to make someone else loose their mind too22:27
NCommanderslangasek, ;-)22:28
NCommanderBTW, there are people nuttier then I am22:28
NCommanderSomeone modified aptitude to solve suduko puzzles22:28
jdstrandScottK: unless I am looking at the wrong thing, that page is a) from 2006 and b) completely ignores the Debian packaging22:32
jdstrandI seem to remember something in the wiki...22:32
ScottKMay be.  As I said I can't find my notes.22:32
ScottKhttp://www200.pair.com/mecham/spam/clamav-amavisd-new.html is a little more specific.22:33
ScottKYou may have to grep a bit for which config file stuff is in, but it should be generally accurate.22:33
jdstrandyeah, I was just looking at that...22:33
jdstrandScottK: what about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Clamav/TestingProcedures ?22:35
ScottKI totally forgot about that.22:36
ScottKI think it misses the step where you activate clamav.22:36
ScottKGrep for clamav in the the conffile directory and you'll find that.22:37
jdstrandok22:37
slangaseksuperm1|away: how does http://paste.ubuntu.com/43476/ look to you?22:50
asacogra: mozilla bug 45370422:52
ubottuMozilla bug 453704 in General "Extreme slowness, "Firefox is already running" error for >3 users launching Firefox in LTSP environment" [Critical,Unconfirmed] http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=45370422:52
asacogra: any hint? that user appears to have issues with ubuntu ltsp like above22:52
=== stefanlsd_ is now known as stefanlsd
calcall java in main is supposed to be using default-jre right?23:01
calcor whatever it is called?23:01
calcdoko: ?23:01
* calc is going to convert over OOo 2.4.1 to using it if so23:01
calcah i found the email23:05
jdstrandScottK: amavis[16255]: (16255-01) Blocked INFECTED (Eicar-Test-Signature), LOCAL [127.0.0.1] [127.0.0.1] <jamie@localhost> -> ...23:06
jdstrandScottK: so I updated the wiki page accordingly23:07
jdstrandScottK: *and* the profile didn't block amavisd-new :)23:07
ScottKjdstrand: Great.23:08
dokocalc: yes. are there any outstanding problems with this?23:08
ScottKjdstrand: I've got a variety of gui front ends on my laptop for testing.  I'll make sure those are OK too.23:09
jdstrandScottK: excellent. I'll upload the debdiff today/tonight23:09
cjwatsonCycom: as far as bug statuses go, "fix released" is the correct state for the bug if it's fixed in intrepid, but you can use the "target to release" link to nominate the bug to be fixed in hardy as well; if that nomination's accepted by the release team, the bug then grows an extra independent state for hardy23:21
Cycomcjwatson: wouldn't it make more sense to have a seperate state for a bug that won't be fixed in a release?  It's confusing for people examining the bug who still have the bug in the current release.23:23
Cycomcjwatson: 'Well, clearly I need to file a new bugreport!' kind of thing.23:23
Cycomit would make more sense to have a 'fixed in new version'.  Also, Intrepid is still alpha.  It's not supposed to be used by general users yet.23:24
cjwatsonno, because the default state for the vast majority of bugs is that they get fixed in the current development release and we move on. In terms of raw bug count, it's relatively rare for fixes to need to be backported to stable releases, and so it wouldn't make sense to optimise for that.23:24
Cycomcjwatson: how bout just marking it 'won't fix' then?23:24
cjwatsonno. the state of the bug is fix-released. when intrepid is released ordinary users will be able to get hold of that fix. From your description, it might well make sense to nominate it for hardy too23:25
cjwatsonWe're not going to reoptimise bug workflow for the uncommon case, but we do have ways to handle it which I've described to you23:25
Cycomif the fix isn't available, then it's not released...23:26
cjwatsonthis is how we use the bug states. please respect that23:26
ScottKCycom: You aren't the first to suggest this approach and it really has been considered.23:26
Cycomis there a page to explain this to users?23:27
Cycomif so, I have no gripe.23:27
Cycomif not, it should be made.23:27
* calc thinks he redid the java bits in 2.4.1 properly to build both with openjdk and gcj23:29
calcdoko: i think it should be fine now that i have the patch to workaround the rhino issue23:29
dokook23:29
calcdoko: before it was failing due to the bug wrt rhino, there is already a bug filed in launchpad about it as you are probably aware :)23:29
cjwatsonCycom: I agree that something should be written and put somewhere prominent. At the moment I can't find such a page23:29
cjwatson(which is not necessarily to say it doesn't exist, I'm not a docteam kind of guy ...)23:30
cjwatsonhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status defines our use of Fix Released23:31
cjwatsonalthough it's aimed more at bug triagers than bug reporters23:32
Cycomcjwatson: Won't Fix: It is most often used for bugs with a release target that will not be fixed in that particular release but may be fixed later.23:33
Cycomvs. Fix Released: a release tarball was announced and is publicly available, or a fix was uploaded to an official Ubuntu repo.23:33
cjwatsonyes, that's *if* somebody nominates a bug for a release and then it's later decided to be inappropriate for that release23:33
cjwatsonthat hasn't happened here23:33
cjwatsonI've added a line to the description of Fix Released to describe the case at hand23:34
Cycomcjwatson: I was just about to suggest that :)23:34
cjwatsonWon't Fix is only right if you think it *shouldn't* be fixed in hardy; which seems unlikely given your general manner :)23:35
Cycomcjwatson: so that now begs the question, where IS the target to release link?23:35
cjwatsonright now, the state is that no decision has been taken regarding that bug and hardy23:35
cjwatsonCycom: should be just below the "Affects" box, but it may be that you only see it if you have permission to use it23:35
Cycom'Nominate for release'?23:36
cjwatsonoh, it's called "Target to release" on edge.launchpad.net. Sure, that sounds right23:36
Cycomcjwatson: broken link :/23:36
cjwatson(that's the beta testing site)23:36
cjwatsonget somebody in #ubuntu-bugs to do it for you23:36
Cycomcjwatson: great! thanks.23:37
cjwatsonI could do it myself, but I'd rather not since I'm in the release team and if I do it it'll automatically accept the nomination23:37
Cycomcjwatson: yeah, I understand :)23:37
cjwatsonwhich is a bit more than I'd prefer at 11:30 at night23:37
* cjwatson -> bed23:38
Cycomlater dude. thanks again.23:39
* calc bbl23:39
cjwatsonoh, another way to look at the whole thing (might as well mention it since I thought about it) is that ultimately users benefit if we can make developers' processes for bug handling as efficient as possible. Developers are more efficient if they don't have to keep on looking at the bugs they've already fixed; therefore it makes sense to mark them fixed in the default view once the development release is fixed, and only ...23:41
cjwatson... have developers have to look at them if they're using a non-default view (like launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+bugs)23:41
lifelessyah23:42
lifelessthis is why bzr marks bugs as fix released when they hit mainline23:42
cjwatsonthere are definitely smarter ways to do it (theoretically speaking) but this is what we have for now)23:42
jdstrandScottK: uploaded debdiff for bug #26481723:48
ubottuLaunchpad bug 264817 in clamav "clamav should ship apparmor profiles" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26481723:48
jdstrandScottK: keep in mind that it will be in complain mode on certain upgrades (see ApparmorProfileMigration), but new installs will be enforcing23:49
jdstrandScottK: ping me when satisfied, and I'll apply for FFe23:50
leszekwhere can I find or change the translated menu in the isolinux bootloader from the livecd ? the *.tr file seems not to be the place23:52

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