[01:03] <LaserJock> hello Edubunteros!
[01:14] <LaserJock> ogra, sbalneav: I messed around a lot with the ~edubuntu-bugs list of subscribed packages. I took out squeak and rasmol and added a bunch of packages that we ship and no other team in Main seems responsible for
[01:15] <LaserJock> good news is it's a better reflection of what we're shipping, bad news is we got around 70 new bugs on our list
[18:44] <Fritz87> hello
[19:14] <Fritz87> Is there anyone in particular here that I could speak with about edubuntu? I'm writing a proposal for my work (I work for a school district that spends a lot of money on software and software licenses and could save a lot of money switching to open source)
[19:15] <Fritz87> I need to go to a meeting now, but I'll idle in the channel and if anyone is interested in giving me some advice I'll be back soon
[19:16] <Fritz87> As far as what I do for the school I'm a college student that helps the tech department part-time during the summer, just doing it because I want to help its not my job or anything
[19:46] <cilkay> Fritz87: I'm also trying to get a small school using Linux. I think the barriers are more political and human-related rather than technical.
[19:47] <cilkay> People, particularly some teachers, are afraid of change.
[19:47] <cilkay> I hear all sorts of nonsensical reasons why they don't want Linux, never mind that none of them have ever used Linux.
[20:04] <Fritz87> ah I see
[20:09] <cilkay> Fritz87: Technical solutions to political problems will never succeed. Unfortunately, you'll have to play the political game too.
[20:09] <cilkay> Identify a teacher or teachers who have a need you can meet.
[20:11] <cilkay> Get them on-side early and create a success story upon which you can build with the rest of the organization.
[20:11] <Fritz87> oh wow! thanks! you just gave me this great idea.  One of the teachers in the school gets grants to try new technology, she can do whatever she wants basically
[20:11] <Fritz87> shes actually invovled in this "classroom of the future" program or something like that
[20:11] <cilkay> As long as that teacher has political clout, that will help. Otherwise, she'll be sidelined easily as "just another geek".
[20:12] <cilkay> Geeks are easy to sideline because they usually don't play the political game well.
[20:13] <Fritz87> shes just a regular teacher with a very rich father
[20:16] <Fritz87> I mean, if I can't convince some people in the school to try it, i might be able to influence that program through her
[20:17] <cilkay> I think it's ridiculous that we should have to work so hard to get this accepted but that is the sad state of affairs in education.
[20:18] <cilkay> If you can find someone who is influential who understands the greater purpose of free software, you'll have a powerful ally.
[20:18] <cilkay> If you're pushing free/open source software on the basis of lowered costs, you'll lose.
[20:19] <cilkay> As far as schools are concerned, Microsoft's software is free or close to it.
[20:19] <cilkay> free as in, "no cost"
[20:19] <Fritz87> well, one thing is that they use 1/2 macs 1/2 pcs, and they buy lots of extra software.  The other thing is, the school discount on macs is 5%
[20:20] <Fritz87> its just so horrible to me...  and they are missing out on a ton of money because theya re just barely under the computers per capita to get state funding for technology
[20:20] <cilkay> That's why I mentioned Microsoft specifically. I know that Apple dosen't use the drug dealer strategy as well as Microsoft does.
[20:20] <cilkay> MS educational pricing is very low.
[20:21] <cilkay> If you're fighting on the basis of costs alone, you're doomed because the proponents of the status quo, and they are many, will argue that it will cost more to switch to free software due to retraining costs.
[20:21] <Fritz87> ah I see.  So I should focus on the merit of open source and linux itself
[20:22] <cilkay> They'll argue "no one uses free software", or "it's not as functional - we'll miss features", or appallingly, as I've heard, "our kids will not be employable because they won't "know" MS Office".
[20:22] <Fritz87> one other thing is they have laptop carts for classrooms, but are considering switching to netbooks, and the one they like so far is the HP 2133, which is the lowest power out of all the netbooks
[20:23] <Fritz87> has 512mb ram and a 1.0 ghz processor (not the atom)
[20:23] <cilkay> Asus and Acer make some pretty sweet netbooks too but that's just an implementation detail.
[20:23] <Fritz87> what I mean is running linux on those is a better plan than vista for sure
[20:24] <Fritz87> ah I see.... so what apporach would you take, it sounds next to impossible
[20:24] <cilkay> There's no way you're going to run Vista on 512M.
[20:24] <cilkay> I have a very good relationship with the principal of the small school in question.
[20:25] <cilkay> I've been listening to him for years talking about "holistic education" so I know that it is something he values highly.
[20:25] <cilkay> Part of holistic education is participation in the broader community.
[20:26] <cilkay> ... from the local to the global one.
[20:26] <cilkay> This is a secular school with children of all kinds of backgrounds and religious faiths.
[20:27] <Fritz87> ah I see
[20:28] <cilkay> The common theme though is that education is more than just learning the 3Rs. We have, for instance, character education and civics to promote the personal and civic growth of children.
[20:28] <cilkay> Part of that is what I call "caring and sharing".
[20:29] <Fritz87> So basically, that school is a perfect candidate, but there are still things in your way
[20:29] <cilkay> If you haven't read Stallman's argument why schools in particular should use free software, you should.
[20:29] <cilkay> That argument resonates with the principal.
[20:29] <Fritz87> I don't feel very optmistic now, but I think I can approach the problem better and at the very least I can publish something online that I'd be proud to sign my name on
[20:30] <Fritz87> and maybe someone else could try their luck somewhere else with maybe even one of the ideas I present, then It'd be worth it I think
[20:30] <Fritz87> alright I'll google that right now.  Thanks so much by the way
[20:31] <cilkay> But, the principal is smart enough to know that broad support amongst his teachers would be preferable to him to him mandating we use free software.
[20:31] <cilkay> So, he's telling me *how* I need to sell this. You need to find someone like that in your organization.
[20:32] <cilkay> From my sales experience, I know that anytime I can have a prospective client tell me how he likes being sold, I have a client.
[20:34] <cilkay> Fritz87: I didn't mean to tell you this to discourage you. You shouldn't be discouraged at all. You're dealing with humans and their wide range of abilities, outlooks, strengths, and frailties.
[20:34] <Fritz87> well I thought it would be easier, but I'm definately not going to get up, if anything you've just pointed me in the right direction
[20:34] <Fritz87> *give up
[20:34] <cilkay> You're approaching this as most techies would, from the perspective of, "Isn't this great technology?"
[20:36] <cilkay> People claim they buy with their heads but they really buy with their hearts.
[20:36] <cilkay> Most anyway.
[20:36] <Fritz87> I feel bad ruling out cost though, I heard that they spend something like 22k on software licenses per year
[20:36] <cilkay> That's why really well-done ads are often content-free and full of motherhood type stuff.
[20:36] <cilkay> No, don't rule it out.
[20:37] <cilkay> Just don't make it the only thing on which to hang your hat.
[20:37] <Fritz87> I might even run into trouble getting copies of that sort of information, I might have to go through one of my friends who works there and lives in the district
[20:37] <cilkay> I don't see why anyone would get into trouble about revealing how public funds are spent.
[20:37] <cilkay> s/should/would
[20:38] <Fritz87> well, I mean it might be difficult to obtain, I don't think I'd get into trouble either
[20:38] <cilkay> Fritz87: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/schools.html
[20:41] <Fritz87> Thanks.
[20:42] <Fritz87> Do you have your own site?
[20:42] <cilkay> I do but it has nothing to do with this.
[20:42] <cilkay> http://dinamis.com
[20:43] <cilkay> And my blogging activities have been quite spotty.
[20:43] <cilkay> I need to blog this whole experience at the school though.
[20:43] <cilkay> I've been immersed in it for the last six weeks, though I've been a parent volunteer for longer.
[20:44] <Fritz87> If I were to do some more research, could we correspond later via email?  Maybe in about 2 weeks after I've done a lot
[20:44] <cilkay> sure
[20:44] <cilkay> clifford_ilkay at dinamis.com
[20:44] <Fritz87> thanks!
[20:44] <cilkay> you're welcome
[20:45] <cilkay> And your name and email so I know to expect it?
[20:46] <Fritz87> fritz87 at gmail.com and my name is John Frederick
[20:46] <cilkay> Nice to "meet" you.
[20:46] <cilkay> Where are you? I'm in Toronto.
[20:47] <Fritz87> New Jersey here, going to Rutgers in New Brunswick
[20:47] <Fritz87> the school district in question is scotch-plains fanwood
[20:49] <Fritz87> Nice to meet you too
[20:54] <cilkay> Fritz87: There is a conference coming up in a couple of weeks in Cincinnati about open source in education. You might want to mention that too. I know it's the fallacy of appeal to popularity but it's one that many people seem to fall for.
[20:55] <cilkay> http://www.k12openminds.org/
[20:56] <cilkay> http://www.ghca.com/computers/
[21:03] <Fritz87> okay thanks
[22:21] <Fritz87> hi cilkay are you still there?
[22:21] <cilkay> otp
[22:23] <Fritz87> Edubuntu is now an add on for the standard ubuntu distro, correct? Does that mean it would work on ubuntu variants like fluxbuntu? Some older computers might function better on a more lightweight OS
[22:42] <cilkay> Fritz87: Back. Some of the apps might require Gnome libraries but they don't require the Gnome desktop manager so it should work. Should be easy to test.