[00:00] I'd like to try to centralize and condense the amount of "info" we have to be easily accessible [00:03] i agree [00:03] i have my own wiki page that tries to do that, maybe we can use that as a rough template of sorts [00:04] http://lns.wikidot.com/referenceurls is what i was most thinking of [00:04] like an index page of all relevant resources [00:05] definitely something like that [00:06] =) [00:06] the thing that's most frustrating to me is how to create a single hierarchy of finding WHERE to go...it's multidimensional [00:07] you almost need a search algorithm to be efficient [00:07] so I basically see 3 primary "areas" of documentation [00:07] 1) about Edubuntu - release notes, why you should use it, it's goals [00:07] 2) how to get help [00:07] 3) how to help/contribute [00:08] That sounds sane enough [00:09] so we could basically use one of those index pages for each of those areas [00:09] yeah [00:10] but the thing is, Xubuntu people, for example, won't look at Edubuntu for any of this [00:10] well, tbh, I don't want them too :-) [00:10] *to [00:10] But what about cross-distro collaboration on bugs in Gnome vs. ltsp for instance? [00:11] Edubuntu and Ubuntu both use gnome as their DE [00:11] well, ok, here's how I see it [00:12] if you try to make a "one-size-fits-all" index it will either be so details as to be unnavigable or so vague as to be unhelpful [00:12] yeah...that's why i mentioned the search thing above...not that i think that's a good solution, but i agree [00:12] what we want is for Edubuntu people to easily plug into Edubuntu resources [00:12] then people who connect groups do their work of getting things where they need to go [00:13] you leverage the human network to pull everything together [00:13] well we need to further distinctify (is that a word?) between edubuntu and ltsp in linux [00:13] there may be some of that needed [00:13] yea [00:13] because for a while there Edubuntu was LTSP upstream so they got tied together [00:14] but now we need to sort of pull them back apart [00:14] so Edubuntu isn't responsible for everything LTSP, and other distros feel free to contribute to the broader LTSP documentation and support [00:15] exactly [00:16] the links are too hard to find for "normal" people though, to get to the resources they need...i think a catch-all wiki would be a good place to start, that's just me though [00:16] i like the idea of the 1) 2) 3) top-level areas though [00:17] a filesystem-type drill-down way to get to information [00:18] well, except those are somewhat notorious for being only intuitive to the person who designed the hierarchy :-) [00:18] hehe [00:18] i guess that's true [00:18] man..this is hard [00:18] i almost wish ubuntu didn't have so many different sub-distros [00:19] "is that Networking -> Server -> Samba or Filesystems -> Network -> Samba" [00:19] well, don't think of it a sub-distros then :-) [00:19] yeah - it's too 2-dimensional [00:19] heh [00:19] we need a 3D space of areas [00:19] especially in Edubuntu where we're just an addon [00:20] exactly [00:20] there's really no particular reason to think of us a sub-distro [00:20] well i don't really anymore [00:20] maybe better to think of a Special Interest Group or something [00:20] but a lot of people still do, because edubuntu is the first "distro" (back then) that started making thin-client networks easy to deploy [00:20] it got stuck with the reputation ;) [00:21] well, we can do that too [00:21] that's the beauty of it, IMO, we can be a "distro" to some, "flavor" to others, "those weirdos that hate hard drives" to others ;-) [00:21] heh [00:22] but how to point those things to the single entity that is edubuntu [00:22] you almost need a switchboard operator [00:22] well, I think when it really comes down to it, nobody cares [00:22] i agree with that [00:22] they're using "something" [00:22] they are goal oriented [00:22] sometimes it has bugs [00:23] sometimes they need help using it [00:23] but yeah, they're just trying to do something [00:23] maybe that would be a better focus [00:23] on the goal, rather than the technology [00:24] seems more human [00:24] "I want education-related software and themes on my computer" [00:24] "I want thin-clients" [00:25] so ... [00:25] on my 3 index pages I'd group by those tasks/goals [00:26] mmk [00:26] let's try that out real quick [00:26] 1) What is Edubuntu? [00:26] you want me to do this on my wiki? [00:26] i actually can right now [00:27] * educational OS for kids [00:27] * thin-client server environment for educational settings [00:27] oh, looks like interesting discussions here [00:27] * educational content delivery platform [00:27] stgraber: feel free to chime in with your thoughts [00:28] 2) How can I get help? [00:28] * Help for educational programs [00:28] * Help for LTSP servers [00:29] * Help for general issues [00:29] 3) How can I contribute/help? [00:30] * General information - mailing lists, IRC, reporting a bug [00:30] * Making LTSP better [00:31] * Becoming a part of the Edubuntu team [00:31] hmm, well, that's what came off the top of my head anyway [00:32] it's a great start [00:32] let me whip up a page and put those in there [00:32] * Packaging education packages ? (reporting new softwares) [00:33] yeah, I think that might be a good one [00:35] Ok, let's go back to the 3 main areas - i gave them more generic names, what do you think of "About", "Support", and "Contribute" [00:36] and i'll put descriptions in those names [00:36] hmmmm [00:37] maybe i'm getting off base [00:38] but if these are all going to point to the REAL resources (and not try to just create another fragmented information source), those might be good starting points [00:40] no, that's good, I just got a lightbulb in my head [00:45] I created as generic of a top-level as possible - i called it "Goal Digger" [00:45] so there's no way we will have to recreate things from the top [00:45] http://lns.wikidot.com/goal-digger [00:46] man...i want those [+] things to create a nice menu [00:46] but that even seems too 2-dimensional [00:47] i'd love to create something that taps into all of the other menus and creates symlink type things [00:47] but that's the hierarchy of the wiki itself probably [00:47] (sorry talking to myself kinda) [00:54] ok, i created a new wiki all together for this, anyone can edit it (can't on the other one i posted) [00:54] http://goaldigger.wikidot.com/start [00:56] I need to leave, but why don't we keep this URL and start adding web page addresses, IRC resources, mailing list URLs, etc. to it? [00:57] I'll be back tomorrow and maybe we can all talk about it more [00:57] Lns: in a little bit I think I'll have something on edubuntu.org [00:57] LaserJock: ok [00:58] I thought, hmm, why not just rip of the nice work the ubuntu.com webmaster have done :-) [00:58] LaserJock: might as well :) [00:58] so I'm taking http://www.ubuntu.com/community [00:58] and remolding it into our About, Support, Contribute [00:58] but I'm going to add Governance on there [00:59] ok [01:01] alright i'm outtie [01:02] let's get back on this tomorrow if possible... ping me if possible, let's keep the ideas flowing [01:02] i'll try and get back here asap though [01:06] stgraber: still around? [01:24] LaserJock: yep [01:27] stgraber: have a look at http://www.edubuntu.org/node/50 [01:27] LaserJock: access denied [01:27] stgraber: did you log in? [01:27] can you log in? [01:28] LaserJock: yeah [01:28] I'm logged in [01:28] and still nothing? [01:28] but I'm not sure I have much right on the website actually [01:28] stgraber: try it now [01:29] ok, it worked this time [01:30] I need icons for the top and to tweak the other section for Edubuntu [01:30] but I think it might make a good landing spot [01:30] yes and the header is broken on that page [01:31] yeah, I don't know why, not sure if it's something I did (don't know why that'd happen) or not [01:34] the page doesn't validate, some non-closed tag it looks like [01:34] (according to validator.w3.org) [01:37] stgraber: ok fixed [01:38] yeah, looks good now. I like the way that page is done === HedgeMage_ is now known as HedgeMage [04:03] Evenin all [04:03] hi, sbalneav [04:08] Evening HedgeMage [04:08] how are you tonight? [04:09] I'm doin' allright, as the song says :) [04:09] :) [04:15] I upgraded my CPU and Ram yesterday, so now I have a CPU that can do full VT, and I can play around with qemu/kvm [04:16] cool [06:23] I am having trouble getting my wifi card to work with 7.04 its a Dlink Dwl-G650, and I have read through a lot of the docs ubuntus page [10:30] I think you guys underestimate the annoyance of not having a LiveCD ; any chance of a LiveDVD image (I know that edubuntu adds around 430MB) [10:30] Would it be reasonably easy to generate one? === Nubae1 is now known as Nubae [14:39] Morning all [14:42] morning s! [14:42] :) [14:51] Hey guys! [14:52] I got a problem with GnomePanel! any pro that got some time? [14:54] Voelund: what's the problem? [14:55] :Nubae: Well When i start my system gnomepanel doesnt work so i only see my desktop and no Over and under panels are showing. [14:56] So im on in Failsafe Gnome [14:56] then it works [14:56] My Update download tool isnt working either, but ill fix that later. [14:57] Im not so good on the terminal, any command i can use to repair Gnome? [14:59] Simplest way to do that would be to log in as yourself on a text screen [14:59] and type the following command: [14:59] gconftool-2 --recursive-unset /apps/panel [14:59] That will reset panel configs back to the default [15:00] log in again on the console, and you should have the "default" Ubuntu panel config. [15:00] okay, ill try that [15:02] shouldnt i do that in root? [15:03] Ill try relogg then. brb [15:03] ill tell you how it went [18:17] Lns: around? [18:32] LaserJock: just got in [18:32] What's up? [18:35] Lns: http://edubuntu.org/node/50 [18:36] LaserJock: nice! =) [18:36] looks strangely familiar ;) [18:36] yeah [18:37] it's not fully "edubuntuized" yet [18:37] yeah, great start though [18:37] but I think it might make a good "landing spot" for people [18:37] most definitely [18:37] Do we want to keep this focussed on *buntu ? Or should we incorporate other distros? [18:39] I want it focused on Edubuntu specifically [18:39] ok - so the educational apps specifically, or LTSP resources as well? [18:39] and then some place like ltsp.org could then pull the distros together [18:39] gotcha [18:40] I'd like to get in contact with the maintainers of ltsp.org regarding a revamp if possible [18:40] it would be the sensible 'hub' for all things ltsp [18:40] obviously heh [18:41] well, sometimes the most obvious places don't end up being where things are at, for one reason or another [18:41] yeah [18:41] like whitehouse.com ;) [18:41] haha [18:41] LaserJock: Also, have you checked out schoolforge.net ? That might be some people we can collaborate with [18:41] Last night I was thinking about starting a non-profit regarding FOSS in education and other places, but they seem to have the ball rolling already [18:42] It would be fun to see how much momentum we can get regarding consolidating all of this information [18:45] Lns: I've incorporated some of what you put in your getting started pdf into the official ltsp documentation [18:45] Nubae: oh wow [18:45] :) [18:45] thank you! [18:46] I wasn't sure if it was good enough to put in something like that heh [18:46] misbehaving processes, user management [18:46] awesome [18:46] sure it was :-) and thankyou [18:47] One thing you might want to add, well..actually i should file a bug, is that KUser is flawed when run from Gnome - you have to modify the .desktop file to run "gksudo kuser" instead of the default exec= line [18:47] otherwise it doesn't elevate your privs correctly and won't work [18:48] Lns: why are you using kuser? [18:48] LaserJock: Mainly because there are sorting/searching issues with gnome-users-admin [18:48] (it doesn't work) [18:48] perhaps we should fix that [18:48] There's a filed bug already [18:49] lemme dig it up [18:49] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-system-tools/+bug/259163 [18:49] Launchpad bug 259163 in gnome-system-tools "users-admin does not sort when Name/Login/Homedir field clicked" [Undecided,New] [18:49] while I appreciate the constraints school admins are under, etc. people are waaaaay too hack-happy in Edubuntu :-) [18:50] LaserJock: what do you mean? [18:50] I mean, I've never seen a community so eager for nasty hacks, workarounds, or ditching programs [18:51] I understand the reasons why, but it's really not helpful for developers [18:51] I agree [18:52] I see that is a big problem for the long-term acceptance of edubuntu [18:52] people need things to work, but these hacks break upgrades and just cause fragmentation [18:52] ok, so this bug is a good point [18:52] LaserJock: hey hey [18:53] you've filed the bug not against ltsp, that's good [18:53] *but* Edubuntu won't know about it at all [18:53] perhaps we should start either using a tag or subscribing to these bugs [18:53] sbalneav: morning [18:53] LaserJock: what about triaging? would that work in this case? [18:54] well, but we have to know the bugs exist first [18:54] * Lns is still learning about the bug proces [18:54] s* [18:54] hmm [18:54] you know what i've seen before, which i'm not sure is present or not in LP, but in Mozilla bugzilla, is a default e-mail list whenever a bug is created [18:54] so the problem is we have a "radar" ( https://bugs.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-bugs/+packagebugs ) but if a bug doesn't get on the radar we're not going to know about it [18:55] "Bug e-mail sent to foo@foo, bar@bar, etc" [18:55] LaserJock: So, see the post about getting the DebuggingLTSP page as our central point for "bugs that affect LTSP deployments"? [18:55] right, well, Edubuntu isn't going to subscribe to *every* bug in Ubuntu [18:55] LaserJock: right - well critical, default packages like this do effect all *buntus [18:55] sbalneav: briefly (trying to get some research done this morning), did you create that page? [18:56] Lns: right, but right now there are 200 open bugs on the package you filed that bug against [18:56] wow [18:56] that's...good? :p [18:56] Lns: having an edubuntu developer know it's there so they can either 1) fix it or 2) push it forward is important [18:57] so we have 2 good options, tagging and subscribing [18:57] Lns: the kernel has ~3500 open bugs :-) [18:58] LaserJock: well...a kernel vs. a user admin gui... a bit different. Of course IANAP so i'll shut up ;) [18:58] they are different, but people still have to look at them [18:58] But that particular bug has been present for a loooong time..i was just surprised that it wasn't reported earlier than i did [18:58] Ubuntu right now has ~48k bugs open [18:59] we need to be able to get Edubuntu people's bugs fixed in all that [18:59] 48k bugs and < 200 developers [18:59] LaserJock: No, it was already there, but very sparsly filled. I figure rather than a new page, we could expand that one. [18:59] Well I have some good feedback from my site techs regarding issues (they love to complain about everything ;) ) so I can always somehow report them back here [18:59] probably on a schedule or something [19:00] Is there a meeting scheudle for simply reporting issues with Edubuntu? [19:00] sbalneav: ok good, I think that's a *perfect* place to tie into the existing QA work [19:00] Lns: no, that's generally not productive [19:01] ok [19:01] so just tagging edubuntu bugsquad to filing my bugs will probably suffice [19:01] complaints are almost always too general to do much with, and people just go around and around [19:02] it might be helpful for people to vent [19:02] but I'd rather they vent in the direction of LP so we can do something about it [19:02] LaserJock: oh no, i agree - I can translate those complaints into bug reports and get us informed on them though - because, unfortunately, 90% of the complaints I get are actually bug-related [19:03] sure, the more bug reports the better [19:03] * Lns just joined Edubuntu bugsquad [19:03] ogra: you have a quick second? [19:06] sbalneav: do you have any feeling about how non-ltsp bugs should get on the Edubuntu radar? [19:07] my feeling is subscribing is the best way to go, although tags are a bit easier to do [19:07] Lns: dude, your first name is Jordan? [19:07] yes [19:08] cool, so is mine [19:08] oh wow hehe! [19:08] my wife always tells me it's a girls name :-) [19:09] so you're probably Mantha on the lists? [19:09] haha... it's both dammit! [19:09] It's definitely more masculine than "Jordina" haha [19:10] which a friend of mine loves to call me...hate that guy :p [19:10] lol [19:11] well, I live in city with fairly large hispanic population so I'm usually Jorge [19:12] hahaha.. i've never been called that..i live in northern california, which also has a good hispanic population.. i kinda like that though [19:12] LaserJock: Well, I'm perfectly happy to subscribe to them as a developer, but I'm just one guy. What we need is some end-user agitation to "bump up the priority" on those bugs, and get them taken seriously. [19:13] That was why I thought the wiki page with the pointers TO the bugs we're targetting might be a good way to pull in the community to add their voice to the mix. [19:13] Lns: where do you live?? [19:13] sbalneav: I had started to do that on my own wiki (pointing to bugs) - it seemed, at least to me, to be a great help and an easy way to keep up to date [19:14] LaserJock: About 1hr north of San Francisco [19:14] sbalneav: right, but from my perspective I need them on my radar so that I can "pimp your bug" ;-) [19:14] Lns: funny, I'm in Reno [19:14] LaserJock: oh wow! [19:14] I'm in Santa Rosa [19:15] oh, I bet it's nice there [19:15] LaserJock: you know what, "Pimp my bug" would be an awesome domain for bug collaboration :p [19:15] It's ok... great mexican food :) [19:16] it's been hot as hell though.. how's it out there? My mom was once considering moving to Reno, she liked it a lot up there [19:16] Lns: you been to Reno, other than Lake Tahoe it's a desert [19:16] LaserJock: yeah, so subcribining will fix that I think. [19:16] As for pimping my bugs, I want bling and pretty things that spin. [19:16] I haven't even been to LT since I was a kid [19:16] Oooh, and a boss sound system [19:17] LOL [19:17] And hydraulics [19:17] "dude, look at the grill on that bug, that's haaawt!" [19:17] We should pool in for a LaunchPad ride [19:17] * sbalneav imagines LaserJock as X-Hibit [19:18] * sbalneav makes gang signs with his hands [19:18] Did I ever tell you I had plans to start up my own Rap group? [19:18] hmm, I don't think I have enough hair left for corn-rows :-) [19:18] careful sbalneav ...there might be some Redhat members in here ;) [19:18] I was gonna call it "Plain White Rapper" [19:18] badum-bum [19:18] ... [19:18] * Lns walks away slowly [19:19] * LaserJock just about falls out of his chair imaging that [19:19] *imagining [19:19] sbalneav: perhaps LTSP needs an equivalent of that "Kill -9" song ;-) [19:20] sudo pimp my bugs [19:20] Oh, the fun we have :) [19:20] * Lns goes to apt-get install pimp [19:20] dude, it'd turn bug #s into ASCII art :-) [19:20] with a gold chain [19:20] oh man [19:20] " [19:21] o< [19:21] " [19:21] What wasn't a very good bug [19:21] Sorry, That [19:21] lol [19:21] "ASCii stupid question, get a stupid ANSi" [19:21] lol [19:21] hmm [19:21] * Lns misses the BBS days [19:22] when writing a preseed file: d-i preseed/late_command string wget http://10.0.2.131/post_install_tasks && chmod +x ./post_install_tasks && ./post_install_tasks returns 'failed with exit code 127'. but if i run it on the machine after install it works fine [19:22] any idea what i need to change? [19:23] Hmm, not sure. [19:23] Goosemoose: have you tried talking to #ubuntu? [19:23] preseed issues should be non-Edubuntu specific and you might get more exposure [19:24] LaserJock, yes i tried there and got no response [19:24] tried ubuntu-server but its dead [19:25] hmm [19:27] Goosemoose: Can you tell where it's failing at? For instance: If you shorten it to just the wget, does the file come down? [19:28] Wonder if this might be an issue? [19:28] http://www.mail-archive.com/debian-boot@lists.debian.org/msg100804.html [19:28] They seem to indicate creating a udeb, then putting the script in that [19:32] the wget works fine [19:32] no error returned [19:32] so it has to be the part after [19:32] but if i type it on the command line it works fine [19:33] this isn't an interactive script though [19:33] it just joins the domain [19:37] Does it produce output? [19:38] I wonder if it doesn't like any output produced. Maybe ./post_install_tasks returns > /dev/null 2>&1 [19:43] might be [19:43] hmm [19:55] hi [19:56] hello [20:17] "I expect the -devel list to pick up soonish" [20:17] Should be my new .signature. [20:17] * Lns sees that just communicating with the community is a full-time job ;) [20:17] Well, this is it. [20:18] I'm at my full-time job, frantically trying to do my work I get paid for, PLUS answer emails, PLUS monitor the IRC channel. [20:18] so true [20:18] I'm preparing to teach lab, trying to write a journal article and dissertation, work on edubuntu.org ... [20:19] Im trying to stay afloat with my own business, support an employee, and pay my bills...along with this :) [20:19] yep, such is life in FLOSS much of the time [20:20] * Lns is proud to be considered part of the OSS community [20:21] :d [20:21] :d [20:21] I would recommend a stress reliever ... I just got this from Thinkgeek..I can't wait for it to arrive. http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/cubegoodies/922f/ [20:22] edubuntu system requirements? [20:22] i have 8 MB of ram [20:22] :D [20:23] ... okaaay [20:23] wow...was that kinda like a doorbell ditch? [20:24] I was gonna tell him that 8MB of ram was a real Kickass DOS 3.3 system [20:24] at least it wasn't a flaming paper bag ;-) [20:24] heh [20:25] SO... anyone have any comment on this Firefox 3.01 issue? https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=453704 [20:26] Mozilla bug 453704 in General "Extreme slowness, "Firefox is already running" error for >3 users launching Firefox in LTSP environment" [Critical,Unconfirmed] [20:26] never seen it [20:26] no firefox errors here.. [20:26] johnny: how many users do you have on at the same time? [20:26] I haven't seen it at my office, but there are only 2 TCs [20:26] 4 :) [20:26] hehe [20:26] so.. >3 :) [20:27] well it's an estimation [20:27] and in my situation about 35 users will be logging on, all at once [20:27] i really don't see how it would be a problem.. [20:27] slowness maybe, but not "firefox is already running" [20:27] Right...i agree, it's strange. [20:27] that problem disappeared for me [20:27] after firefox 3 [20:28] But it's definitely present at 7 of my sites [20:28] johnny: well it actually started happening for me after upgrading to Hardy [20:28] Gutsy worked great in Firefox (minus the whole pixmap issue) [20:29] But this issue is causing teachers and labtechs to revert to Windows 2000 :( [20:29] They're starting to hate the "new Linux system" with a passion [20:30] i had the opposite [20:30] Well maybe it's safe to say that the problem occurs when more than 10 users log on simultaneously [20:30] i had the "firefox is already running" on gutsy for every user [20:30] even just my 4 [20:31] The thing is, with mine, that error starts cropping up after ~3-5 minutes of lag-time after trying to launch Firefox. [20:31] switch from firefox to seamonkey maybe? [20:31] Some students will see the "Launching Firefox" panel tab dissapear after that amount of time, and when they try again, it will spew the error. [20:32] johnny: that's not a good idea for me. [20:33]