[00:00] <ScottK-laptop> Right.  I meant kdenetwork.
[00:00] <ScottK-laptop> NCommander: BTW, it's Riddell's key on the upload for kdelibs in Intrepid.
[00:00] <NCommander> ScottK, the same patch applies to both, just tweak the changelog
[00:00] <ScottK-laptop> NCommander: You sure?
[00:01] <NCommander> ScottK, yeah, it should apply cleanly
[00:01] <ScottK-laptop> Didn't apply for me, but maybe I messed up.
[00:01] <Riddell> NCommander: is it a problem?
[00:01] <NCommander> ScottK-laptop, I can roll the debdiff myself then
[00:01] <NCommander> Riddell, no, we just found a better fix for the problem I'm testing building
[00:01] <apachelogger> Riddell: master dirk made a better fix today in KDE svn
[00:01] <Riddell> oh, groovy
[00:01]  * ScottK-laptop goes afk for a bit.
[00:03] <NCommander> Riddell, can you upload a fix for hardy-proposed on powerpc? (its a no-changes binary rebuild to clear a segfault; I've confirmed it works right already)
[00:03] <Riddell> NCommander: if you get it to me quick
[00:03] <ScottK-laptop> NCommander: We don't have binary rebuilds in Ubuntu.  Needs a source upload and rebuilt on all archs.
[00:04] <NCommander> ScottK, right, I realize that. No changes binary rebuild == changelog only upload
[00:04] <NCommander> Riddell, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-python-extras/+bug/181068
[00:05] <NCommander> THe trick is going to be finding someone on ubuntu-sru to ACK that, I don't think any of them run PowerPC
[00:06] <NCommander> ScottK-laptop, I'm rolling the backports fix now
[00:18] <Riddell> NCommander: uploaded, it'll sit in unapproved which usually gets reviewed by pitti on fridays
[00:18] <NCommander> Riddell, thanks, I owe you one :-)
[00:24] <a|wen> is anyone here running hardy ... and has a distribution list in kmail/kaddressbook that was added in gutsy (or prior release)
[00:43] <JontheEchidna> It is a sin to make KDE look like this: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/10104129/20071020-adept.png
[00:45] <seele> Exit?  Does that close the dialog or close adept manager?
[00:45] <JontheEchidna> seele: that's from adept2
[00:45] <seele> oh
[00:45] <JontheEchidna> I am going through old bug reports
[00:46] <seele> hmm.. dinner or more cake?
[00:57] <mib_lhfac4> Someone know the correct alternative of "update-manager -d" for kubuntu?
[00:57] <mib_lhfac4> hi, btw
[01:00] <seele> best ask in #kubuntu
[01:03] <NCommander> ScottK, ping?
[01:04] <stdin> apachelogger, Riddell or anyone: please have a look at http://revu.ubuntuwire.com/details.py?package=kopete-cryptography for me
[01:09] <JontheEchidna> mornfall: is bugs.kde.org working for you yet?
[01:10] <JontheEchidna> I have a reproducible way to give a package the description of another package
[01:10] <JontheEchidna> in Adept Installer
[01:15] <JontheEchidna> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/adept/+bug/268106/comments/6
[01:15] <JontheEchidna> ^Reproduction instructions are in the comment, both of those packages should be in Debian
[01:18] <JontheEchidna> otherwise see http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=170835
[01:27] <apachelogger> stdin: get-orig-source not worky
[01:27] <stdin> no? it worked here
[01:28] <apachelogger> http://paste.ubuntu.com/45565/
[01:28] <stdin> ahh, poop
[01:29] <apachelogger> doc/ is gfdl
[01:30] <apachelogger> oh
[01:30] <stdin> /doc/index.docbook: GNU Free Documentation License version 1.2
[01:30] <apachelogger> yeah
[01:30] <apachelogger> you should note that in the on debian system... as well
[01:31] <stdin> the GFDL license is in common-licenses
[01:31] <stdin> oh, yes it is :p
[01:32] <apachelogger> I am too tired to give it a full revu
[01:32] <apachelogger> the changelog entry should mention the FFe and fix the FFe bug
[01:33] <stdin> apachelogger: do you know a good authoritative way of getting the base kde version? I'm using kdelibs5 in the rules but that blows up
[01:33] <stdin> and I really don't want to have to reinvent uscan in Makefile speak
[01:34] <apachelogger> stdin: tear the original name apart
[01:35] <apachelogger> of course I have no idea how to do that in make :P
[01:35] <apachelogger> stdin: alternately you could just take a look at the other extragear apps
[01:35] <apachelogger> because I think we pretty much don't care if watch is actually useful for downloads :P
[01:40] <stdin> they all keep the -kde4.1.1, the lazy buggers :|
[01:41] <apachelogger> that is called productivity I guess :P
[01:41]  * apachelogger goes to bed
[01:41] <apachelogger> nini
[01:42] <stdin> I'll upload another version tomorrow, sleep sounds too good
[02:38] <ScottK-laptop> NCommander: Back
[02:39] <Hobbsee> front.
[02:39] <ScottK-laptop> ;-)
[02:40] <JontheEchidna> omg
[02:41] <JontheEchidna> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/adept
[02:41] <JontheEchidna> Adept is completely triaged
[02:41] <JontheEchidna> oh, actually a few reports still need to be forwarded upstream, grr
[02:52] <emgent> hello people
[02:52] <emgent> someone have kubuntu intrepid up?
[02:53] <jjesse> hell emgent
[02:53] <jjesse> hello emgent
[02:53] <emgent> my touchpad and usb mouse seems dead
[02:55] <emgent> ok found the problem :)
[03:00] <NCommander> wb ScottK
[03:00] <NCommander> ScottK, I have your backport :-P
[03:06] <ScottK> K.
[03:06] <ScottK> URL please?
[03:06] <NCommander> ScottK, hold on
[03:07] <NCommander> ScottK, https://edge.launchpad.net/~sonicmctails/+archive?field.name_filter=kdenetwork&field.status_filter=published
[03:07] <NCommander> ScottK, it will probably FTBFS since the PPA doesn't have backports enabled
[03:08] <NCommander> Oh wait, scratch that
[03:08]  * NCommander just posts the debdiff somewhere
[03:09] <ScottK-laptop> Thanks.  I prefer that.
[03:09] <NCommander> ScottK-laptop, http://paste.ubuntu.com/45589/
[03:09] <NCommander> I didn't see the need to open a bug since I don't know what it should have for a upload
[03:09] <ScottK-laptop> Bug wouldn't autoclose in backports anyway.
[03:10] <NCommander> ScottK-laptop, oh, thats "wonderful"
[03:10] <NCommander> ScottK-laptop, I'm going to attack the Incomplete queue on hardy backports relatively soon (aka, this weekend)
[03:10] <ScottK-laptop> K.
[03:11] <NCommander> I think I need to empty out my PPA
[03:12] <NCommander> ScottK-laptop, care to upload the new kdelibs?
[03:17]  * NCommander can't get a clean debdiff
[03:19] <NCommander> ScottK, the clean rules is pretty badly broken on kdelibs-3.5.10, its causing the .diff.gz to be bloated to 720k, and the debdiff to 500k
[03:20] <NCommander> ScottK, its all the translations that are getting caught in the debdiff, and I have no idea how to fix this clean rule (and I'm sorta hesitant to even touch it)
[03:23] <NCommander> ScottK, do you want me to bother changing the clean rule and possibly break it worse to try and get a clean diff, or not bother?
[03:29]  * NCommander checks ScottK's pulse
[03:31] <jtechidna> mornfall: Triaging is also complete. Here is a list of all the bugs in the Ubuntu bugtracker that concern you as upstream: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/adept/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_supervisor=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscriber=&field.status_upstream=open_upstream&field.status_upstream-empty-marker=1&field.omit_dupes.used=&
[03:31] <jtechidna> field.omit_dupes=on&field.has_patch.used=&field.has_cve.used=&field.tag=&field.tags_combinator=ANY&search=Search
[03:32] <jtechidna> er, that's a long link and konversation broke it
[03:32] <jtechidna> apachelogger: do want battiny script
[03:32] <jtechidna> mornfall: http://tinyurl.com/5sw2hd
[03:33] <ScottK> NCommander: I'd like the minimal fix that's gonna work.
[03:33] <NCommander> ah the joys of fixing backport clean rules
[03:34] <NCommander> ScottK, the debdiff still going to be huge however because it needs to decruft the previous upload
[03:35] <ScottK-laptop> OK.
[03:35] <ScottK-laptop> Which change are we on now?
[03:35] <ScottK-laptop> I thought kdelibs was broken in Intrepid?
[03:36] <NCommander> ScottK-laptop, thats the one, sorry, misremembered which version I was fixing
[03:36] <NCommander> (this is fun :-))
[03:36] <yuriy> jtechidna: that's amazing. good job!
[03:36] <ScottK-laptop> K
[03:36] <NCommander> ScottK-laptop, I just really need to cut the diff down the size, but its going to be a huge debdiff to remove the cruft
[03:36] <jtechidna> yuriy: to tell you the truth I'm somewhat exhausted
[03:37] <ScottK-laptop> NCommander: Do we really want to mess with it?  If you say yes, I'll believe you.
[03:37] <NCommander> ScottK-laptop, your the one who said you wanted a clean diff ;-)
[03:38] <ScottK-laptop> Did I?
[03:38] <ScottK-laptop> I thought I said I wanted the minimal fix that would work.
[03:38] <ScottK-laptop> [22:33] <ScottK> NCommander: I'd like the minimal fix that's gonna work.
[03:39] <NCommander> ScottK, Oh, the fix is in there, there is just a lot of cruft in the patch from the bad clean rule (it regenerated the .pos, and all that got caught up in the diff)
[03:41] <NCommander> ScottK, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kdelibs/+bug/268817
[03:41]  * ScottK-laptop looks
[03:42]  * NCommander hears Scott's eyes sizzle
[03:43] <ScottK-laptop> NCommander: At a glance, the changes in messages.po don't look right.
[03:45] <NCommander> ScottK, dah, I accidently clobbered the good diff with my work in progress one
[03:45] <NCommander> 'doh
[03:45] <NCommander> Oh wait
[03:45] <NCommander> Er
[03:45] <NCommander> No, this is what regenerated
[03:45] <NCommander> ScottK, I have no idea its constantly regenerating these
[03:48] <ScottK-laptop> Wahoo.  Diff is less than 20,000 lines.
[03:48]  * NCommander sighs
[03:48] <NCommander> The actual changes are less than 200 lines
[03:49] <ScottK-laptop> How about you make me a special diff with just those lines and we go from there.
[03:49] <NCommander> ScottK, yes sire :-P
[03:49] <ScottK-laptop> IME applying 8,000 lines of .po file diff rarely ends well.
[03:50] <NCommander> ScottK, Riddell didn't even try, he just uploaded from my PPA
[03:51] <NCommander> I'll see what I can do
[03:51] <NCommander> all my changes are in the debian folder, so I should be able to diff just that
[03:51] <ScottK-laptop> Sounds good.
[03:57] <NCommander> ScottK-laptop, check your PMs, that should be it
[04:19] <ScottK-laptop> NCommander: Any last regrets before I upload kdenetwork?
[04:20] <NCommander> ScottK-laptop, the worst we do is break lpia worse, and considering its an FTBFS fix, can it be any worse?
[04:20] <ScottK-laptop> OK.
[04:21] <ScottK-laptop> I'm to dpkg-shlibdeps, so it shouldn't be long.
[04:22]  * NCommander waves flags
[04:22] <ScottK-laptop> Of course there are a lot of those ...
[04:23] <NCommander> That took longer then the actual build itself ...
[04:23] <NCommander> :-)
[04:24] <NCommander> ScottK-laptop, do we have any other big KDE todos?
[04:24] <ScottK-laptop> For KDE3, I think it's mostly a
[04:25] <ScottK-laptop> ... a|wen finishing some investigations.
[04:25] <ScottK-laptop> I still need to finish up on kdebindings.
[04:25] <ScottK-laptop> urr kde4bindings
[04:26] <NCommander> ScottK, Sounds like "fun"
[04:27] <ScottK-laptop> I'd love to hear you figured out php-clamavlib.  It's the last holdout on the libclamav5 transition.
[04:28] <NCommander> Oh, shoot, I'm sorry, my mind slipped on that one
[04:28] <NCommander> ScottK, I'll trade you that for uploads on my ada SRUs
[04:28] <NCommander> ScottK-laptop, where do I grab the current source package and build logs?
[04:29] <ScottK-laptop> NCommander: Just apt-get source php-clamavlib and throw it at your intrepid pbuilder.
[04:29] <NCommander> intrepid?
[04:29] <ScottK-laptop> Yes
[04:29]  * jtechidna goes to bed
[04:30] <ScottK-laptop> NCommander: It won't take you long to get to the libtool fun.
[04:30] <NCommander> How bad?
[04:31] <ScottK-laptop> NCommander: http://paste.ubuntu.com/45614/
[04:31] <NCommander> ScottK, any desire for a specific patching system?
[04:32] <ScottK-laptop> NCommander: I think the current changes are all direct in the diff.gz.  I'd just go with that.
[04:32] <NCommander> They are?
[04:32] <NCommander> ugh
[04:32] <NCommander> *twich*
[04:32] <ScottK-laptop> Given that's the current path, I don't think patching and direct changes should be mixed.
[04:33] <ScottK-laptop> If you want to go back and redo it all with dpatch, that's cool too.
[04:33] <ScottK-laptop> No quilt please.
[04:38] <ScottK-laptop> kdenetwork uploaded for backports.
[04:57] <ScottK-laptop> kdelibs for Intrepid uploaded.
[05:49] <ScottK-laptop> Riddell: I uploaded a revised kdenetwork to hardy-backports for NCommander.  I pinged slangasek and asked him to accept it, but I'd appreciate it if you'd check and accept it if he didn't already.
[05:49] <NCommander> \o/
[05:56] <emgent> uhm there is a bug in kopete, seems reject some chars on password field.. and faild login with wrong password.
[05:56]  * emgent investigate..
[07:02] <mornfall> jtechidna: Thanks a lot, I'm off for a few days now, but next week I'll sort through it. The work is really appreciated, ta.
[09:36] <apachelogger> Riddell: when trying to upgrade using adept I get this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/45680/
[09:36] <\sh> apachelogger: where was the quassel bzr archive again?
[09:37] <\sh> apachelogger: got it...
[09:48] <apachelogger> \o/
[09:48] <apachelogger> I can't edit the wiki page
[09:48] <apachelogger> hooray
[09:48] <apachelogger> -.-
[09:56] <apachelogger> hm
[09:57] <apachelogger> Does anyone have arora installed?
[09:57]  * apachelogger would be interessted if it works there
[10:30] <Riddell> it doesn't
[10:43] <Riddell> ScottK-laptop: nothing in hardy-backports queues
[10:47] <Riddell> apachelogger: hmm, interesting, it's cycling through the available views and by the time it gets to te KDE4 one it has already loaded the KDE one and the qt versions clash
[10:47] <Riddell> I wonder why the KDE 3 one was left in there are all
[10:49] <apachelogger> Riddell: compatibility with series where python-qt4 is not installed maybe?
[10:50] <Riddell> we've used qt4 since edgy
[10:53] <apachelogger> Riddell: dapper is still supported until 2009, isn't it?
[10:53] <apachelogger> or is only dapper -> hardy supported as upgrade path?
[10:55] <Riddell> right, it's LTS to LTS only
[10:56] <apachelogger> ok
[11:11] <Riddell> apachelogger: do you have the /var/log/dist-upgrade/main.log still?
[11:12] <apachelogger> Riddell: I am doing an upgrade using update-manager right now. I can get you the file in about 17 minutes.
[11:14] <ScottK> Riddell: I got an accept shortly after I went to bed, so I guess he got it.
[11:15] <Riddell> apachelogger: using the gtk tool?
[11:16] <apachelogger> Riddell: yes, that's the cool thing about VMs, you can easily get rid of that stuff again ;-)
[13:04] <goatsocks> hm, can/should you ignore the ignore file in bzr like you would with cvs/svn?
[13:05] <goatsocks> or is that ignored by default
[13:06] <Riddell> bzr ingore ingore
[13:06] <Riddell> but without the typos
[13:08] <goatsocks> Riddell: not `bzr ignore .bzrignore`?
[13:11] <goatsocks> because when i do that, it says:
[13:11] <goatsocks> Warning: the following files are version controlled and match your ignore pattern:
[13:11] <goatsocks> .bzrignore
[13:11] <goatsocks> but .bzrignore still shows up in `bzr st`
[13:11] <goatsocks> which is very unlike cvs/svn
[13:13] <Riddell> dunno, I've not used it, you probably want to bzr add .bzrignore actually
[13:39] <apachelogger> goatsocks: the ignore stuff is an evil hack
[13:39] <apachelogger> Riddell: I invoked the DistUpgrade manually and it crashed :S
[13:39] <goatsocks> ok bzr has two kinds of ignore lists... the kind handled by `bzr ignore` and thus stored in .bzrignore within the branch are ignores you want versioned and shared with other branches... then there's the local ignore which you can specify in ~/.bazaar/ignore for a list of ignores you don't want versioned
[13:40] <goatsocks> the latter ignore file has to be hand edited
[13:40] <apachelogger> the latter is really only for global ignores
[13:40] <apachelogger> like backup files
[13:40] <Riddell> apachelogger: backtrace?  log?
[13:40] <goatsocks> apachelogger: exactly, that's the kind of ignores i'm after
[13:41] <goatsocks> apachelogger: like IDE generated crap
[13:41] <apachelogger> goatsocks: you should store them in .bzrignore if you plan on sharing the branch though
[13:41] <apachelogger> Riddell: http://paste.ubuntu.com/45769/
[13:42] <apachelogger> Riddell: terminal seems to be broken actually
[13:42] <seele> yay, cake for breakfast
[13:43] <goatsocks> apachelogger: afaict the files specified in ~/.bazaar/ignore aren't versioned hence won't be shared when sharing a branch... ?
[13:43] <goatsocks> seele: please don't say "zucchini"
[13:43] <apachelogger> goatsocks: exactly that is why you should put that stuff in .bzrignore
[13:44] <seele> goatsocks: someone's got to eat it
[13:44] <goatsocks> apachelogger: but the whole problem is i don't want to share the .bzrignore file also
[13:44] <apachelogger> or get the ignores in the bzr internal ignore list on long erm
[13:44] <apachelogger> goatsocks: well, then just throw the stuff in .bazaar
[13:44] <apachelogger> seele: there is still zucchini pie left? Oo
[13:45] <seele> apachelogger: i'm the only one eating it!
[13:45] <Riddell> apachelogger: the terminal doesn't exist until the packages are all downloaded and installing
[13:45] <goatsocks> apachelogger: i think you're right though, bzr ignore handling is nasty, probably why there's a spec for overhauling it entirely
[13:45] <seele> apachelogger: (to be fair, i'm home alone this week)
[13:45] <apachelogger> seele: hm, you could send some over.... ;-)
[13:45] <apachelogger> Riddell: ok
[13:45] <seele> apachelogger: come visit me an i'll make you a cake!
[13:46] <apachelogger> worth a thought
[13:46] <apachelogger> maybe post-intrepid
[13:47] <Riddell> apachelogger: where had the install got to?
[13:47] <apachelogger> Riddell: getting new packages I think
[13:48]  * apachelogger checks
[13:49] <Riddell> headerHidden : bool  "This property was introduced in Qt 4.4."
[13:49] <Riddell> apachelogger: what version of python-qt4 do you have?
[13:49] <apachelogger> 4.3.3-2ubuntu4.1
[13:50] <Riddell> that would explain it then
[13:51] <Riddell> apachelogger: able to try this patch? http://paste.ubuntu.com/45781/
[13:52] <apachelogger> *trying*
[13:54] <apachelogger> Riddell: doesn't crash anymore \o/
[13:54] <apachelogger> Riddell: I think the terminal button should be hidden unless there is something to show
[13:59] <Riddell> apachelogger: are you upgrading or can you test a patch for that too?
[13:59]  * apachelogger kills the upgrade
[13:59] <apachelogger> Riddell: now I can test a patch :)
[13:59] <jtechidna> Riddell: is update-manager-kde invoked through Adept 3.0 for intrepid+1 upgrades?
[14:00] <Riddell> apachelogger: http://paste.ubuntu.com/45784/
[14:00] <Riddell> jtechidna: no, through update-notifier-kde instead
[14:01] <jtechidna> Riddell: so I guess my question is, what displays the release announcement this time around?
[14:03] <Riddell> jtechidna: update-notifier-kde will
[14:03] <jtechidna> k
[14:03] <jtechidna> thanks
[14:03] <apachelogger> Riddell: are the dependencies for update-notifier-kde fixed yet?
[14:04] <Riddell> apachelogger: yes, in update-manager 1:0.93.10
[14:08] <apachelogger> neato
[14:08] <apachelogger> uh, 77 updates -.-
[14:08] <goatsocks> heh so if you don't wanna bother branchers with your .bzrignore file, `echo .bzrignore > ~/.bazaar/ignore`, then do `bzr ignore foo` inside your working copy to add ignores and create .bzrignore there, then do `bzr remove --keep .bzrignore` (because `bzr ignore` automatically `bzr add`s .bzrignore!)
[14:08] <apachelogger> hm
[14:09] <goatsocks> er sorry that should be echo .bzrignore >> ~/.bazaar/ignore
[14:09] <goatsocks> ;)
[14:10] <apachelogger> seele: http://aplg.kollide.net/images/snapshot104.png what do you think about that dialog?
[14:11] <goatsocks> apachelogger: many users won't know what the "apt-file cache" is
[14:11] <apachelogger> yes
[14:11] <apachelogger> even more will not know what to click :P
[14:12] <apachelogger> I am a dev dood and have no idea what "run this action" and what "next" is going to do
[14:12] <apachelogger> Oo
[14:12] <goatsocks> it's also not very sure whether you need an internet connection to carry out the task ;)
[14:13] <jtechidna> well honestly, most users aren't going to install apt-file. But that dialog is confusing
[14:13] <apachelogger> http://aplg.kollide.net/images/snapshot105.png
[14:13] <apachelogger> I chose next
[14:13] <apachelogger> and now I am seriously confused
[14:13] <seele> apachelogger: are you fixing this or are you just looking for validation?
[14:13] <jtechidna> oh
[14:13] <goatsocks> wtf, totally defeats the purpose of using a GUI updater tool
[14:14] <jtechidna> apachelogger: next probably meant, see next notification
[14:14] <apachelogger> seele: I am looking for validation
[14:14] <seele> apachelogger: yes, it sucks.
[14:14] <seele> i can't get past the first screen, do i click run or next?
[14:14] <seele> it doesnt even use the same language
[14:14] <apachelogger> well, now that we see this is a notification browser
[14:14] <seele> it says "run this command" in the message but "run this action" in the button
[14:15] <apachelogger> would run also go to next screen?
[14:15] <apachelogger> Riddell: go fix that notification thing :P
[14:17]  * goatsocks can now get some real work done until the next bzr wtf moment
[14:18] <apachelogger> mornfall: so, why is the sidebar widget not following the mainwindow color gradient in oxygen?
[14:18] <seele> apachelogger: was 104 the first image in the wizard?
[14:19] <apachelogger> seele: the first was a popup in systray, telling me there are notifications, which left behind a light bulb, clicking on that lead to 104
[14:20] <apachelogger> then I clicked next, which lead to 105
[14:22] <seele> what is it supposed to do? run apt-get update?
[14:22] <apachelogger> no, I think it is the thing that shows up to tell you to reboot your system
[14:22] <apachelogger> or restart firefox
[14:22] <apachelogger> ...
[14:22] <seele> what?
[14:23] <apachelogger> 'post-update' notification
[14:23] <seele> huh, that got lost on me.  so it would show up after a kernel update and tell you to reboot?
[14:23] <apachelogger> yes
[14:23] <seele> or is this the cryptic message you get everytime?
[14:24] <apachelogger> seele: http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/update-notifier-hooks.png
[14:26] <seele> ah ok.. so it's just that one that is confusing
[14:26] <apachelogger> well, I guess everytime you get more than one notification it's like that
[14:27] <jtechidna> maybe it should be ignore?
[14:27] <apachelogger> jtechidna: what should be ignored?
[14:27] <jtechidna> You could have a run action button and an ignore button, which would show the next notification, maybe?
[14:27] <apachelogger> makes loads of sense
[14:28] <apachelogger> Because, actually the light blub disappears after it walked you through the notification
[14:28] <apachelogger> At least I wouldn't expect it do that.
[14:30] <jtechidna> grr, update-notifier keeps popping up it's bubble telling me to restart
[14:31] <jtechidna> at least it's not annoying as windows where a whole freaking window comes up and steals focus
[14:31] <apachelogger> I think adept updater crashed ;|
[14:31]  * jtechidna reboots
[14:52] <apachelogger> seaLne: I installed the kde-devel meta package and used the dist-upgrade tool -> no problems
[14:54] <apachelogger> Riddell, or Riddelll_: terminal patch works
[14:55] <Riddelll_> thanks apachelogger
[14:55] <apachelogger> Riddelll_: once oxygen-icons is installed it switches from crystal to oxygen for new current icons, looks odd IMO
[14:56] <apachelogger> hm, s/new current icons/new icon changes/g
[14:56] <Riddelll_> interesting
[14:56] <Riddelll_> I'll add that to a things to fix if I have spare time list
[14:56] <apachelogger> ok
[14:58] <jcastro> Riddell: ok so I guess if there are ideas missing people should just make new ones?
[15:04] <apachelogger> uhh
[15:04] <apachelogger> that upgrade is somewhat ... weird
[15:04] <Riddelll_> jcastro: according to the meeting, brainstorm isn't a requirement
[15:05] <jcastro> ah ok
[15:05] <jcastro> (whew)
[15:05] <Riddelll_> although it might be an idea to ensure jono knows that
[15:12] <seele> Riddelll_: when i talked to jono about it he said just create new ideas
[15:12] <jjesse> seele: new kubuntu related ideas on brainstorm/
[15:13] <seele> but personally, i think that defeats the purpose of them using brainstorm in the first place.  it is supposed to be a community collection of ideas.  the system breaks down if people submit arbitrary ideas that the user community wont understand enough to vote on
[15:13]  * seele has issues with brainstorm
[15:13] <seele> really, a usability category?  now we're asking users to self-diagnose?
[15:14] <jjesse> yes we are :)
[15:14] <seele> why don't they tell us how to design the UI while theyre at it
[15:14] <JontheEchidna> my problem with brainstorm is the gnome bias
[15:14] <jjesse> +1 JontheEchidna
[15:14]  * jjesse spent some time trying to find kubuntu and server brainstorm ideas for his uds application and couldn't find any
[15:14] <JontheEchidna> jjesse: there is a kubuntu tag
[15:15] <jjesse> JontheEchidna: must have missed it i was using the search
[15:15] <jjesse> tried kde and kubuntu
[15:16] <JontheEchidna> This idea needs to be closed: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/11546/
[15:16] <JontheEchidna> jjesse: all KDE brainstorms: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/search?keywords=&ordering=mostvotes&relation=99&state_new=1&state_needinfos=1&state_blueprint_approved=1&state_workinprogress=1&state_done=1&state_already_done=1&state_unapplicable=1&nothing_attached=1&bug_attached=1&spec_attached=1&thread_attached=1&attachment_operator=0&tags_operator=and&tags=&category=-1&type_idea=1&_search_submitted=true&state_deleted=0&state_not_an_
[15:16] <JontheEchidna> idea=0&type_bug=0
[15:16] <jjesse> wow twhat a link
[15:17] <jjesse> you couldnt' tinyurl it? :P
[15:17] <seele> lol
[15:17] <apachelogger> hm
[15:17] <JontheEchidna> This idea needs closed too: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/12292/
[15:17] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: you need a paste protection, not battiny :P
[15:18] <Nightrose> JontheEchidna: i can close them if you want me to
[15:18] <Nightrose> whith what text?
[15:18] <Nightrose> *with
[15:18] <JontheEchidna> uh, for the first one
[15:18] <apachelogger> Nightrose: not wortht the time
[15:18] <jjesse> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/11054/ katapult is no longer used
[15:19] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: you shouldn't care about them
[15:19] <JontheEchidna> KDE 4.1 in Hardy has already been done
[15:19] <apachelogger> the point of rating is that pointless stuff doesn't get to the top :P
[15:19] <apachelogger> jjesse: my just upgraded vm tells a different story
[15:19] <JontheEchidna> and we can't doing anything about Qt's licensing, since Nokia controls that. And the current dual licensing method is Qt's whole business model
[15:19] <jjesse> apachelogger: really katapult is still used?
[15:19]  * Nightrose closes them
[15:20] <apachelogger> jjesse: it certainly works
[15:20] <jjesse> interesting
[15:21] <JontheEchidna> jjesse: all kubuntu-tagged ones: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/search?tags=kubuntu&ordering=mostvotes
[15:22] <seele> has anyone gone through the registration process?
[15:22] <apachelogger> Riddell: it appears to me that all the recommends of kubuntu-desktop don't get upgraded in dist-upgrade
[15:22] <seele> is there a free text area besides "about yourself" where you can talk about what you want to work on?
[15:23] <jjesse> yes
[15:23] <apachelogger> Riddell: and adept gets removed completely which leaves the resulting intrepid without GUI package manager
[15:23]  * seele would rather send an email to a person that matters than fill this form out
[15:23] <Nightrose> hmmm strange
[15:23] <jjesse> but limited to 1000 characaters
[15:23] <seele> oh great
[15:23] <Nightrose> i can't edit any of the ideas you posted
[15:23] <jjesse> +1 seele
[15:23] <Nightrose> but i can edit others
[15:23] <JontheEchidna> Nightrose: actually I think the first one wants KDE 4.1 moved to hardy-backports
[15:24] <JontheEchidna> which hasn't been done yet, so don't close it
[15:24] <apachelogger> can't
[15:24] <Nightrose> JontheEchidna: yea - i can't anyway - dunno why - i am a moderator
[15:24] <apachelogger> it's really against backports policy
[15:24] <apachelogger> could break too much
[15:26] <apachelogger> stdin: is there some lp dood I can poke about the kubuntu-bugs name?
[15:30] <jjesse> seele: are you werking on the application right now?
[15:37] <seele> jjesse: no i gave up
[15:38] <jjesse> lol
[15:38] <seele> you get a tiny box to talk about everything you do for ubuntu?
[15:38] <jjesse> apparently that's all you need
[15:38] <seele> seriously, i want an email address and i'll write up a nice letter with links to projects etc.
[15:38] <jjesse> +1
[15:38] <jjesse> but i think the brainstorm links are supposed to help automate the scheduling of the disscussions
[15:40] <seele> hum, i dont even know if my boss would let me go
[15:41] <seele> this is a problem
[15:41] <seele> i need a new job
[15:41] <seele> (if i wasnt so lazy i'd just work for myself)
[15:42] <Riddell> hmm, well I filled in the second page of the application and got sent back to the start
[15:42] <seele> did it have an error message: "Too many KDE related Brainstorm topics. Please try again."?
[15:42] <Riddell> naw, I was trying to fill in a non brainstorm URL
[15:43] <jjesse> lol seele
[15:43] <jjesse> i hate doing documentation for customer engagements they are so boring
[15:43] <seele> it would be good if a group could fix Samba and then another group could design a UI for Samba
[15:44] <seele> then we just need someone to implement it in QT and GTK
[15:44] <seele> and everyone get's a new more usable samba
[15:44] <apachelogger> seele: Qt, not QT :P
[15:45] <seele> apachelogger: shiftkey lag :P
[15:45] <seele> isnt it Gtk also?
[15:45] <apachelogger> no
[15:45] <apachelogger> GTK+
[15:45] <seele> ah geez
[15:45] <seele> the Printer config UI could use some love too
[15:45] <seele> and system settings reorganized
[15:46] <seele> and a new user management tool
[15:46] <apachelogger> user management is in development I think
[15:46] <apachelogger> that reminds me
[15:46] <JontheEchidna> <.<
[15:46] <apachelogger> we need to kill kuser
[15:46] <seele> apachelogger: who is working on it?
[15:46]  * JontheEchidna hides
[15:46] <seele> oh yeah? hehe
[15:46] <apachelogger> obvious I guess
[15:46] <seele> JontheEchidna: have you seen the Redhat UI proposal?
[15:47] <JontheEchidna> seele: nope, just sorta trying to scrape together a working UI
[15:47] <apachelogger> IMHO we should just give kuser a make over
[15:47] <apachelogger> most useful for everyone
[15:48] <Riddell> apachelogger: that means c++
[15:50] <apachelogger> Riddell: if I knew c++ better than I do, I probably would prefer it over python :P
[15:50]  * apachelogger thinks we need a c++ workshop for next developer week
[15:51] <Riddell> you really can't learn c++ in an hour
[15:51] <Riddell> it takes an hour to set up the build environment
[15:51] <apachelogger> probably true
[15:53] <apachelogger> Riddell: btw, I setup a torrent tracker on kollide for the 4.1.1 CD, I guess we wouldn't be allowed to use ubuntu's tracker either
[15:54] <Riddell> apachelogger: no I guess not
[15:56] <Riddell> everybody hug rgreening!
[15:56]  * jjesse hugs rgreening
[15:57] <jjesse> why?
[15:57] <rgreening> hi all. looking to help out with developing KDE4 for Kubuntu. Anyone willing to be a mentor? Specifically, I'd like to start with Knetworkmanager or other similar scale app
[15:57] <rgreening> lol
[15:57]  * rgreening hugs everyone back
[15:57] <Riddell> rgreening: knetworkmanager is notoriously hard to work on
[15:57] <goatsocks> yes, knetworkmanager please
[15:57] <rgreening> big arms
[15:57] <Riddell> rgreening: and needs developers just for that reason
[15:57] <rgreening> good. I'm willing to help
[15:58] <Riddell> rgreening: it's currently broken because network-manager changed its DBus API and knetworkmanager hasn't caught up
[15:58] <rgreening> I'm not exoerienced with deb packaging, so I'll need some tips there. However, I am proficient in C++, etc.
[15:58] <JontheEchidna> There is a work on a network manager plasmoid, I know
[15:59] <JontheEchidna> or rather, an infantile network manager plasmoid exists
[15:59] <rgreening> ok. is there a dev currently working on Knetworkmanager
[15:59] <Riddell> rgreening: so far knetworkmanager is essentially a suse project used by the whole of KDE, they're the only ones elite enough to know how to work on it
[15:59] <Riddell> rgreening: haschaa is the guy, but he's on a break for the next few weeks for his thesis
[15:59] <Riddell> rgreening: it's here http://websvn.kde.org/branches/work/knetworkmanager/
[16:00] <rgreening> ok. I'l make a note. Do you have an e-mail addy for him?
[16:00] <jjesse> wow sounds like knetworkmanager is a crazy project then
[16:00] <goatsocks> rgreening: fyi, this is pretty much the state of networkmanager stuff in KDE land: http://lists.kde.org/?l=kde-devel&m=122004639403690&w=2
[16:00] <rgreening> yes. but it is of crucial importance
[16:01] <goatsocks> the plasmoid is the future imo
[16:01] <goatsocks> but knetworkmanager is just a few inches from "it works"
[16:01] <goatsocks> for now
[16:01] <Riddell> rgreening: it'll be in http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/kde-common/accounts?view=log
[16:02] <rgreening> I'll download the source and start reviewing. Does anyone have a link to the API changes that occurred?
[16:03] <Riddell> rgreening: asac would know, he's the ubuntu network-manager dude
[16:03] <Riddell> rgreening: you need to build --with-openvpn=no currently
[16:03] <rgreening> ok
[16:04] <goatsocks> rgreening: the relevant bug regarding the API breakage is bug 259278
[16:04] <rgreening> thanks. good place to start
[16:05] <goatsocks> rgreening: specifically look for the comments about asac (alexander sack) bumping nm 0.7 without testing knetworkmanager ;)
[16:05] <rgreening> hehe
[16:06] <apachelogger> ubuntu ain't has no QA
[16:06] <JontheEchidna> you know that if gnome network manager was the one that broke due to the bump they'd moan for a reversion
[16:07] <JontheEchidna> :P
[16:07] <rgreening> lol
[16:07] <goatsocks> yep, which is why i'm using nm-applet atm, crapping up my otherwise nice kde4 systray
[16:07] <rgreening> I was pretty miffed myself when it broke. I am currently using nm-applet to connect.
[16:07] <goatsocks> ditto ^^
[16:07] <apachelogger> hm
[16:07] <apachelogger> <-- using tha prompt
[16:08] <JontheEchidna> the api change doesn't seem to break wired connections so I'm fine
[16:08] <rgreening> on a side note, anyone else seeing transparency issues in the KDE systray
[16:08] <apachelogger> actually we should just break nm-applet :P
[16:08] <JontheEchidna> rgreening: yeah, known by KDE, should be fixed in KDE 4.2 with new systray
[16:08] <rgreening> mine are all black background rather thna transparent.
[16:08] <apachelogger> enforcing a quick solution
[16:08] <goatsocks> rgreening: yeah that's a known issue, upstream is considering rewriting systray from scratch
[16:08] <rgreening> ok
[16:08] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: is that new tray already written?
[16:08] <rgreening> just wondering if it was specific to my Intel card of a general issue
[16:08] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: pretty much
[16:09] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: pretty much means?
[16:09] <JontheEchidna> meaning, it hasn't replaced the current systray yet
[16:09] <JontheEchidna> but soon
[16:09] <apachelogger> soon might be too late for us :P
[16:09] <JontheEchidna> well, it is still totally 4.2 material
[16:09] <rgreening> I'm slowly getting to like KDE4
[16:10] <rgreening> :)
[16:10] <apachelogger> JontheEchidna: suse backported loads of 4.1 to 4.0
[16:11] <apachelogger> rgreening: btw, you don't have to worry about packaging, we have plenty of people who are willing to care about that ;-)
[16:12] <rgreening> good.
[16:12] <rgreening> :)
[16:12] <rgreening> I come from the Gentoo world. ebuild was my friend. I just haven't gotten around to deb packaging yet
[16:13] <goatsocks> rgreening: ditto again
[16:13] <goatsocks> i'm still kinda stuck in the "if i can't compile it myself, it's crap" mentality ;)
[16:14] <goatsocks> debs sometimes are picky about the environment they're built in
[16:14] <goatsocks> well quite often actually ;)
[16:14] <rgreening> lol
[16:14] <apachelogger> only if the environment is broken :P
[16:15] <goatsocks> apachelogger: idealist!
[16:15] <apachelogger> seriously, I never had problems due to the environment
[16:15] <JontheEchidna> all praise the might pbuilder!
[16:15] <apachelogger> pbuilder is nothing without hooks
[16:16] <goatsocks> exactly what pbuilder was designed to addressed... if nobody ever had build environment borkage, there'd be no need for the likes of pbuilder ;)
[16:16] <goatsocks> s/addressed/address/
[16:22] <rgreening> ok, fetching knetworkmanager sources now. setting build environment. any catches I should worry about?
[16:25] <goatsocks> rgreening: i've built knetworkmanager from the source deb without issue, it should be ok
[16:25] <rgreening> what -dev libraries do I need? Says missing X libraries...
[16:27] <rgreening> I guess I need KDE libs dev as well... any quick link to a list of what I need at a min?
[16:27] <goatsocks> try debuild, it should tell you what you need
[16:27] <goatsocks> debuild -i -us -uc -b
[16:28] <ScottK> rgreening: apt-get build-dep knetworkmanager should get what you need
[16:28] <rgreening> k. cool
[16:29] <rgreening> thanks. dl now.
[16:32] <rgreening> that seems to be working better now
[16:38] <rgreening> successfully built knetworkmanager from svn. now need to research the API changes to D-BUS. Maybe I can find the changes in nm-applet...
[16:41] <rgreening> ridell: you see this report on usability for Knetworkmanager... http://weblog.obso1337.org/2008/expert-review-of-knetworkmanager-07/
[16:41] <rgreening> I like a lot of the ideas here.
[16:43] <apachelogger> rgreening: meet seele, beloved usability guru
[16:43] <apachelogger> seele: meet rgreening our new knetworkmanager dood
[16:46] <rgreening> hey seele
[16:46]  * seele waves
[16:46] <rgreening> lol
[16:46] <seele> is he coordinating with the suse peeps?
[16:47] <rgreening> I'm actually just starting to help here... but if someone wants to point me in the right direction, I can certainly work with the SuSE folks
[16:48] <rgreening> My goal is to work on Knetworkmanager here. Any patches should be apssed up along.
[16:48] <rgreening> s/ap/pa/
[16:49] <rgreening> Given that Worelles was so important to Intrepid, Knetworkmanager needs a LOT of love
[16:49] <rgreening> s/Worelles/Wireless/
[16:49] <rgreening> gee, kant spel today
[16:54] <rgreening> Here's a question, should we opt to release nm-applet with Kubuntu if it isn't ready in time for Intrepid, given the current state of Knetworkmanager?
[16:54] <Riddell> we should revert back to a workable network-manager
[16:54] <rgreening> it being Knetworkmanager of course
[16:56] <rgreening> hmm... so, opting for nm 0.6 instead of 0.7? Knetworkmanager is not real useful (the KDE4 version) as compared to the KDE 3 version, IMHO, at least not without some usability tweaks.
[16:57] <rgreening> I'll do what I can over the next few days to see if I can figure out the current issues with the API.
[17:01] <goatsocks> the fallback should be nm-applet imo
[17:01] <apachelogger> impossible
[17:01] <goatsocks> i think that's what fedora is doing
[17:01] <apachelogger> nm-applet pulls too many stuff in
[17:01] <apachelogger> it wouldn't fit on the CD
[17:02] <goatsocks> it fits on the fedora livecd somehow ;)
[17:02] <apachelogger> we are really not going to drop anything
[17:03] <goatsocks> *shrug* i think users are just concerned with having something that actually works
[17:03] <apachelogger> yup
[17:03] <goatsocks> nm-applet is the most mature frontend
[17:03] <apachelogger> reverting to a workable network-manager works pretty much :P
[17:03] <rgreening> I agree. If nm-applet + deps fit, then it should be the default if knetworkmanager is not suitable.
[17:04] <rgreening> as reverting D-BUS and NM may be more problematic in the long run...
[17:05] <apachelogger> rgreening: why would it be more problematic in the long run?
[17:05] <rgreening> other deps, future upgrades could require newer D-BUS... I'm just thinking out loud. Maybe Im wrong
[17:06] <rgreening> It may all be a moot point if I can figure out where its broke and fix it :)
[17:06] <apachelogger> knetworkmanager gotta switch to solid at some point
[17:06] <apachelogger> and I think solid is pretty solid base to rely on :P
[17:06] <rgreening> hmmm...
[17:09] <goatsocks> apachelogger: i think the plasmoid will make knetworkmanager obsolete, as it already uses solid
[17:09] <apachelogger> the plasmoid is not very much of any use jr said
[17:09]  * apachelogger is doing yoda word order again
[17:10] <goatsocks> well it doesn't work right now because the main dev has been away
[17:31] <jussi01> How is todays daily, anyone? installable?
[17:43] <Riddell> yay, digikam compiled (on amd64)
[17:43] <NCommander> Riddell, ah, the fun of FTBFS fixing.
[17:45] <jjesse> what does FTBFS mean again?
[17:46] <JontheEchidna> Failed To Build From Source
[17:46] <jjesse> thankss
[17:46]  * NCommander always used Failure vs Failed
[17:46] <NCommander> Riddell, know any good FTBFS to kill?
[17:47]  * JontheEchidna uses Fails and Failed interchangably
[17:48]  * NCommander has dreamed of solved FTBFS in his sleep
[17:48] <jjesse> wow someone needs to have better dreams
[17:48] <NCommander> Porting (K)ubuntu ;-)
[17:48] <NCommander> Brings new meaning libtool nightmares
[17:53]  * apachelogger had some FTBFS
[17:53] <apachelogger> ah righto
[17:53] <apachelogger> NCommander: kdenlive doesn't build in intrepid
[17:54] <NCommander> apachelogger, link to build log
[17:54] <apachelogger> NCommander: http://paste.ubuntu.com/45852/
[17:54] <apachelogger> line 1796
[17:55] <apachelogger> 1706 even
[17:56] <NCommander> yay pretty
[17:56] <NCommander> apachelogger, why are you packaging an SVN snapshot?
[17:57] <apachelogger> No clue why we did
[17:57] <apachelogger> probably was debian anyway :P
[17:57] <NCommander> try packaging a new kdenlive?
[17:57] <apachelogger> NCommander: svn is KDE 4
[17:58] <NCommander> wait, what?
[17:59] <apachelogger> hm
[17:59] <apachelogger> maybe not
[17:59] <apachelogger> KDE 4 version is in a branch
[17:59] <apachelogger> http://kdenlive.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/kdenlive/trunk/kdenlive/
[17:59] <apachelogger> trunk doesn't look very promising though :P
[18:00] <apachelogger> Riddell: is kdeglobals somehow protected from kconf_update?
[18:00] <NCommander> apachelogger, it was updated within the last four months
[18:00] <apachelogger> NCommander: well, give it a try
[18:00] <Riddell> apachelogger: I don't know, why?
[18:00] <NCommander> apachelogger, you want me to package this? (I rather package a new snapshot vs. fix an old one)
[18:01] <apachelogger> Riddell: I am trying to kick the Icons group out, so that we ensure KDE 3 -> KDE 4 ends up with Oxygen
[18:01] <apachelogger> NCommander: yeah, I wouldn't really want to update kdenlive, that is an evil package ;-)
[18:02] <NCommander> apachelogger, why?
[18:02] <NCommander> what is kdenlive?
[18:02] <apachelogger> movie editor thing
[18:02] <apachelogger> which encludes half the floss world in it's source tarballs
[18:02] <apachelogger> *includes
[18:03]  * NCommander screams
[18:04] <NCommander> doesn't seem the additional sources are there
[18:04] <apachelogger> hm
[18:04] <apachelogger> maybe they stripped them
[18:05] <apachelogger> Riddell: either there is some kind of protection or my kdeglobals is incompatible with kconf_update
[18:05] <apachelogger> I can drain stuff from any other config, just not kdeglobals
[18:07] <Riddell> apachelogger: kdeglobals had problems in the kubuntu-default-settings profile, that's why it moved to /etc/kde4
[18:07] <Riddell> so it's a bit wonky
[18:07] <apachelogger> uhhh
[18:07] <apachelogger> that would explain it
[18:08] <apachelogger> Riddell: due to the text/icon position?
[18:16] <NCommander> apachelogger, you think its worth packaging a new SVN snapshot?
[18:17] <apachelogger> well, currently it doesn't have a menu entry in anything but KDE
[18:18] <NCommander> ew
[18:30] <ScottK-laptop> Riddell: It looks like we are getting very close to the point where guidance-backends can go away.  Is there anything we still need from kde-guidance or can I kill all of it at the same time?
[18:34] <goatsocks> guidance-power is still more useful than the plasmoid thingy imo
[18:34] <ScottK-laptop> goatsocks: The KDE4 guidance-power-manager is in a different package now.  That'll stay.
[18:35] <ScottK-laptop> It's more (IIRC) mountconfig, serviceconfig, wineconfig, and such that I'm wondering about.
[18:35] <goatsocks> ah
[18:36] <goatsocks> what's the preferred mount util?
[18:37] <ScottK-laptop> That's part of my question.  I haven't been keeping track.
[18:37] <ScottK-laptop> Maybe apachelogger knows?
[18:39] <apachelogger> We don't have a preferred one right now.
[18:39] <apachelogger> I suggest going wiht mountmanager though.
[18:39] <goatsocks> i'd like to know of a decent qt service config tool also
[18:39] <apachelogger> service?
[18:39]  * apachelogger notes to discuss mountmanager today
[18:40] <goatsocks> apachelogger: init services
[18:40] <apachelogger> there ain't such a thing
[18:41] <ScottK-laptop> apachelogger: I think in the next week I'll be able to make guidance-displayconfig and guidance-backends go away.  It'd be good to know what else in that package is obsolete and can die at the same time.
[18:41] <goatsocks> there's no qt equivalent to bum?
[18:41] <apachelogger> goatsocks: no
[18:41] <goatsocks> bummer
[18:41] <apachelogger> ScottK-laptop: I'll start an investigation
[18:41] <ScottK-laptop> apachelogger: Thanks.
[18:42] <JontheEchidna> I would still like to keep guidance-displayconfig around
[18:42] <goatsocks> hm, "bummer" would make a great name for a qt port
[18:42] <JontheEchidna> as of now it's the only way to configure what type of monitor you have
[18:42] <JontheEchidna> unless X is supposed to detect such things automatically?
[18:43] <ScottK-laptop> JontheEchidna: No.  It needs to die.  Increasingly the odds of it breaking your X are higher and higher.
[18:43] <ScottK-laptop> JontheEchidna: It is.
[18:43] <ScottK-laptop> It needs either a total rewrite or death.
[18:43] <JontheEchidna> death it is, then
[18:47] <mcasadevall> ScottK, what must die?
[18:51] <JontheEchidna> mcasadevall: guidance-displayconfig
[18:51] <mcasadevall> is that related to gtk-displayconfig
[18:51] <JontheEchidna> displayconfig-gtk uses the same backend, yes
[18:51] <ScottK-laptop> mcasadevall: They both use guidance-backends.
[18:52] <ScottK-laptop> mcasadevall: If you want to make your eyes bleed, grab the kde-guidance source package and look at the huge stack of hacks and patches I piled on it during Hardy to throw it over the finish line.
[18:52] <mcasadevall> ok ...
[18:52] <BartisKing> Kubuntu can to devotion my someone? I live in Poland.
[18:53] <Arby> evening all
[18:53] <ScottK-laptop> BartisKing: We can always use more help.
[18:53] <mcasadevall> ACK IT BURNS!
[18:54] <NCommander> so what's wrong with guidance-displayconfig?
[18:55] <ScottK> NCommander: It works great on X about 3 major versions ago.
[18:55] <ScottK> NCommander: It totally doesn't grok xorg.conf'less configurations and still uses Xinerama, not Xrandr.
[18:56] <NCommander> Wait, it parses xorg.conf's config file?
[18:56] <ScottK> Yes.
[18:56]  * NCommander begins to twitch
[18:56]  * NCommander has looked at the code that parses the xorg.conf config file in xorg
[18:56] <ScottK> My first great hack was to catch the case where it would crash if xorg.conf was missing and then invent one that was sort of right.
[18:56] <NCommander> I'll just say it burns
[18:56] <jjesse> wow sounds like fun
[18:57] <ScottK> Yeah.
[18:57] <NCommander> Xorg itself is an incredible bundle of crappy code
[18:57] <NCommander> Or at least it was at the time of the Xfree86 -> XOrg fork
[18:57] <NCommander> About the only good thing I can say for that cdodebase is it amazingly portable
[18:57] <ScottK> The only good news was basically all the changes I was making were after it would have already crashed without my hacking, so the odds of me making it worse were low.
[18:57]  * NCommander grabs xorg's source code
[18:58] <NCommander> ScottK, how hard do you think it would be to write a proper parser?
[18:58] <ScottK> NCommander: tseliot apparently has done one in the x-kit package.
[18:58] <ScottK> There are several apps that need the function.
[18:58] <NCommander> So then *-displayconfig needs a rewrite, doesn't it?
[18:59] <ScottK> NCommander: No, it needs to die.  We have a KDE4 supplied alternative.
[18:59] <ScottK> Gnome already got an alternative in Hardy.
[18:59] <NCommander> so whats stopping it from dying (at least in Kubuntu)
[18:59] <NCommander> ScottK, the GNOME alternative is a joke.
[19:00] <ScottK> NCommander: It's what they're going with.
[19:00] <NCommander> ScottK, I still had to use gtk-displayconfig and some manual file hacking to get things working on my old laptop
[19:00] <NCommander> The GNOME alternative trusts that the video card doesn't lie about things like its max resolution or the monitors max resolution
[19:00] <ScottK> NCommander: There isn't a lot of point in removing the KDE one as long as the GTK one lives.
[19:01] <NCommander> I think you can guess my next question
[19:01] <ScottK> Well bryce says he's about ready to kill off displayconfig-gtk.
[19:02] <NCommander> so the problem solved itself
[19:02] <NCommander> yay
[19:02] <ScottK> NCommander: I think any effort you might want to put into re-writing the Guidance display stuff is better expended making the KDE4/Gnome tools better.
[19:02] <ScottK> Yeah.
[19:03] <NCommander> Now if we could only do that with libtool ;-)
[19:03] <ScottK> FFe pending for moving Jockey off of guidance-backends is the last major roadblock.
[19:04] <NCommander> very good
[19:04]  * NCommander looks at network manager's source
[19:29] <rgreening__> Riddell: Knetworkmanager is a fugly beast I must say.
[19:33] <JontheEchidna> Argh, blatant KDE unfriendliness: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DebuggingXAutoconfiguration
[19:33] <JontheEchidna> "# Log out from GNOME, if you are logged in "
[19:34] <Arby> :(
[19:35]  * Arby is just returning to get back into kubuntu work after a bit of an absence
[19:35] <Arby> what have we got in the packaging/testing type area that needs work?
[19:37] <Riddell> Arby: hardy to intrepid upgrade needs testing lots
[19:38] <Arby> Riddell: ok I can do that
[19:38]  * Arby builds a VM
[19:38] <Riddell> Arby: also see celeste's blog for testing toolbars
[19:38] <Arby> ok
[20:41] <seele> Riddell: it looks like Okular's default size got changed since I first tested the defaults, it needs to be +10px
[20:41] <seele> it's enough to cut off the last button
[20:43] <Arby> seele: just the person
[20:43] <Arby> I was looking at your post on testing
[20:44] <seele> yes?
[20:44] <Arby> seele: do you only want tests on intrepid or is testing on hardy still useful
[20:44] <Arby> ?
[20:44] <seele> Arby: it should work in hardy if you adjust the system settings option
[20:45] <seele> it will be interesting to see how many people have changed the the default size on their apps and if they are bigger or smaller
[20:45] <Arby> seele: it does work, I just didn't want to flood the bug report with useless information.
[20:45] <seele> smaller default sizes might be a problem
[20:45] <seele> Arby: no its, ok.  if you tested it and the apps are ok, post a comment
[20:46] <Arby> seele: so you want comments for things that look fine as well as things that don't, correct?
[20:46] <seele> it's an arbitrary QA bug, i did the same for kgrubeditor :)
[20:46] <seele> Arby: yep
[20:46] <Arby> ok
[20:46]  * seele makes a note to clarify that for next time
[20:46] <Arby> seele: I did notice one interesting point
[20:47] <Arby> most of the apps in the 'Internet' section of the menu don't have text at all
[20:47] <seele> yeah, i noticed that for konqueror but the other ones seem ok
[20:47] <seele> but then other people say most of them are configured icons only
[20:47] <Arby> could be I don't know
[20:48] <Arby> I can make a complete list if that would be useful
[20:48] <seele> Riddell: where is the default kde config stored?
[20:48] <seele> Arby: yes it would be so i know what to check
[20:48]  * Arby sets to work
[20:51] <Riddell> seele: most of it is hardcoded into the code
[20:52] <seele> hum.. then i guess i ping pinotree
[20:53] <Riddell> seele: something like default app size is often hidden away inside multiple widgets and their sizeHint
[21:03] <seele> Riddell: pino says he hasnt changed it so i dont know what happened
[21:03]  * seele just needs 10 pixels!
[21:06] <Riddell> as I say the width Qt choses is based on lots of factors from the widgets within the app
[21:07] <Riddell> seele: if there's a fixed width that's needed it's not hard to set that
[21:10] <seele> Riddell: hmm.. does that mean we can set optimal default sizes for all the apps and not some of the haphazard ones we have now?
[21:10] <seele> The default system monitor size is stupid
[21:10] <NCommander> Riddell, Qt widgets changed a lot from release to release
[21:10] <NCommander> well, qt 3 -> 4
[21:11] <Riddell> seele: I guess so, there's various ways we could do it
[21:11] <seele> Riddell: what's the best way, and what's the easiest way I could do it and send you diffs?
[21:12] <Riddell> seele: not sure just now, I'll have to think about it
[21:17] <Riddell> seele: if you look in your ~/.kde/share/config/okularrc there's a [MainWindow]
[21:17] <Riddell> section
[21:17] <Riddell> seele: presumably we need to set the height and width
[21:17] <Riddell> I'm not too sure what the State one contains
[21:18] <Riddell> it looks like it might need set for every resolution though which is nasty
[21:20] <seele> Riddell: so we ship an rc for all the apps and they aren't autogenerated by the app?
[21:20] <Riddell> seele: we ship an rc for any apps where we want to change default settings
[21:20] <seele> that's the way i know how to change app defaults, i didnt know if there was a better way
[21:20] <seele> ok, then it becomes easy
[21:21] <seaLne> what is the rationale behind move-to and copy-to not being enabled by default in dolphin?  i think it is one of the most usefull features
[21:24] <Riddell> seaLne: where's that?
[21:25] <seaLne> right click on a file
[21:25] <seaLne> settings>general context
[21:25] <Riddell> ah, I see it
[21:26] <Riddell> hmm, I don't find that sort of menu navigation useful myself
[21:26] <Riddell> but as with all these things feel free to presuade us
[21:26] <seaLne> means you don't have to faff about cuting/copying files then navigating to the new place
[21:27] <seaLne> much better than the similar send-to in windows as it isn't restricted to where
[21:28] <seaLne> its not the sort of thing either that i think could confuse noobs as it seems to me anyway pretty intuative
[21:30] <goatsocks> oof... mountmanager is one of the nastiest UIs i've seen in a while
[21:31] <seaLne> especially the "history" of locations in it makes it very simple to move files from say for instance a folder that a certain downloading program places them, into categorised folders
[21:39] <Riddell> seaLne: bring it up at the meeting this evening if you'll still be awake
[21:40] <jjesse> what time is the mtg tonight?
[21:40] <JontheEchidna> 7 EDT
[21:43] <jjesse> bummer at dinenr w/ a client tonight
[21:44] <seaLne> Riddell: sorry i'll be in bed at midnight, its not a big deal
[21:51] <Nightrose> seaLne: if you remind me i will bring it up
[21:52] <Nightrose> i find it useful as well
[21:56] <Arby> Riddell: first attempt at hardy -> intrepid upgrade test fails http://paste.ubuntu.com/45930
[21:56] <Arby> can't launch the update-manager
[21:57] <Arby> this is a clean hardy install with kde4 fully up to date
[21:57] <Arby> default packages only
[21:58] <Arby> how do you want to track this, is it worth bug report?
[22:48] <hdevalence> The package for KDE4 digikam in intrepid is very very very old
[22:49] <hdevalence> so it would be good for it to be updated, if someone has time. sorry if this is the wrong channel, but it seemed logical.
[22:50] <Riddell> hdevalence: mm, right
[23:22] <rgreening> been mucking around with K-N-M0.7... and using D-Bus monitor to see what's happening. Not much luck so far. The code is undocumented... I hate that. lol
[23:23] <Riddell> rgreening: yeah, it's pretty hard to get into I'm sure
[23:24] <rgreening> For me, I doc the pseudo code and work top down. Beed doing that for 20 years. I can't stand no doc in the code
[23:25] <rgreening> anyway... still gonna hack at knm... not giving up yet :)
[23:25] <rgreening> maybe the dev will show up by the time I figure out the problem(s) .. lol
[23:26] <blizzz> there are people saying the code is the only doc needed. however, this implies that code is written in an understandable way :D
[23:26] <neversfelde> whats the process to update digikam-kde4, can I help with this?
[23:26] <neversfelde> I am a noob, but seems not to bee so complicated
[23:27] <neversfelde> -e
[23:27] <Riddell> neversfelde: I actually have it compiling away here now
[23:27] <Riddell> neversfelde: but if you fancy looking into liblensfun that would be good, digikam says it would like to use it
[23:27] <Riddell> but we don't have it packaged
[23:27] <neversfelde> Riddell: will try it
[23:29] <rgreening> blizzz: even if a function appears to be self documenting, it should still be documented. Afterall, its possible what you coded is not actually what you intended. Documenting will help clear that up ahead of time if you are dilligent about it (IMO)
[23:30] <Riddell> the trouble with knm is it's build on the equally undocumented nm
[23:31] <blizzz> rgreening: honestly, while coding i seldom have lust to document it, eventually it is a less as possible (perhaps sometimes even less). sure it is a help, but you should name your functions and variable in a way that it is clear what they do.
[23:32] <blizzz> on the other side
[23:32] <blizzz> Qt e.g. is very well documented what i fully appreciate
[23:32] <rgreening> I totally disagree. If coding for yourself...fine. But for a global community, it's rather unfriendly
[23:32] <rgreening> :)
[23:33] <blizzz> rgreening: yepp.  probably it depends on the audience
[23:33] <goatsocks> i think the least a dev should do is give a technical overview of the whole system... the details can be left to the code itself
[23:34] <rgreening> for sure.. though, even if I program for just me, I document as what may seem obvious to me today, might not in 5 years.
[23:34] <yuriy> or probably 5 months
[23:34] <blizzz> sure as well, know that problem :D
[23:35] <rgreening> :)
[23:35] <blizzz> it's like my handwriting^^
[23:35]  * goatsocks finds stuff he forgot he coded
[23:35] <rgreening> lol
[23:35] <goatsocks> once i even thought "what ass wrote this?"
[23:35] <rgreening> bwhahahaha
[23:36] <blizzz> *gg*
[23:36] <rgreening> oh welll.. muh get back to reviewing this spaghetti
[23:40] <goatsocks> had another nice networkmanager adventure earlier when i pulled today's update of nm 0.7
[23:41] <goatsocks> it wouldn't recognize the entry for my default ap anymore
[23:41] <goatsocks> had to remove the profile and re-add it
[23:41] <goatsocks> smells like another api change
[23:42] <goatsocks> on the bright side, it seems to connect a little faster
[23:43] <yuriy> oh good timing on the meeting. just as I finished algebra and thought aah free for the weekend
[23:45] <apachelogger> Riddell: I think we should do the jackalope discussion last
[23:47]  * JontheEchidna tries to think of discussion points
[23:47] <Riddell> apachelogger: why's that?
[23:47] <yuriy> because it could be held indefinitely?
[23:48] <apachelogger> Riddell: because I think right now everything that is even partly intrepidish is more important than jackalope
[23:48] <neversfelde> so I finally googled liblensfun :)
[23:49] <apachelogger> vorian: ping
[23:49] <Riddell> apachelogger: there's nothing else on the agenda
[23:49] <apachelogger> Riddell: yeah, because I can't edit it :P
[23:50] <yuriy> yeah, it says immutable page
[23:50] <apachelogger> we need to discuss some sensible way to triage all bugs related to default applications
[23:50] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: do you wanna do a report about kubuntu-bugs + the state of the bugtracker with me?
[23:50] <JontheEchidna> oh
[23:50] <JontheEchidna> lol
[23:50] <apachelogger> we need to discuss what to do about the wiki, because poor apachelogger can't use it and thus can't add agenda points
[23:50] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: I'll put it on the agenda
[23:50] <apachelogger> thx
[23:51] <apachelogger> we need to discuss whether to make mountmanager part of the default applications because currently we have no mount manager in intrepid
[23:51] <apachelogger> apachelogger needs to talk a bit about upgrade testing, because we need a lot of that
[23:51] <apachelogger> adnt ehn we can talk about jackalope I think :D
[23:52] <apachelogger> s/adnt ehn/and then/g
[23:54] <JontheEchidna> apachelogger: done
[23:54] <NCommander> apachelogger, is the meeting in #ubuntu-meeting?
[23:55] <JontheEchidna> NCommander: email Riddell sent out sez yes
[23:55] <Riddell> Kubuntu meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in 5 minutes