[12:59] <lool> Heya
[12:59] <davidm> hello
[13:00] <davidm> #startmeeting
[13:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is davidm.
[13:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[13:00] <davidm> Good day everyone
[13:01] <davidm> Time for our usual meeting, I'll start with the carried over actions, the first one I think will carry again as I've not had time to work with lool on it.
[13:01] <davidm> [topic] lool+davidm+... test new version of Ekiga (2.9)
[13:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  lool+davidm+... test new version of Ekiga (2.9)
[13:01] <davidm> lool, have you had any time to play with your setup?
[13:01] <lool> I sent my test results of my own calls to misc echo services to the list
[13:02] <lool> Basically, the snapshots are very broken for me for a long list of reasons
[13:02] <lool> The current version less so, but still many issues
[13:02] <davidm> Ah, OK is that from the Crown Beach system?
[13:02] <lool> No, just from my main intrepid desktop to start with
[13:03] <lool> I would have liked testing intrepid/lpia, but given I don't master ekiga on my desktop as a start, i didn't feel like adding another level
[13:03] <lool> Also ekiga isn't built for lpia on ekiga.net AFAIK
[13:03] <davidm> OK, given you are still having  issues, with the desktop do we need to carry this over again:?
[13:03] <lool> And because I need to flip port redirections on my router when switching machines, it would also be painful to test on CB (plus it's not intrepid)
[13:04] <lool> I don't know; I think I've raised many issues with the snapshots some warranting fixing before anybody considers using them
[13:04] <lool> I don't think we should consider ekiga snapshots for mobile, so I think we don't need to track them further here
[13:04] <davidm> OK, then I'll leave it lay for now.
[13:04] <davidm> [topic] cgregan will try to test ThunderBird on 800x480 screen size and report findings.
[13:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  cgregan will try to test ThunderBird on 800x480 screen size and report findings.
[13:04] <lool> I'll continue playing with ekiga on my own, hopefully setting up calls with coworkers
[13:05] <davidm> lool, sounds good
[13:05] <cgregan> Completed that....TB looked just fine on 800x400
[13:05]  * lool found it hard to configure ekiga and can only imagine that most people don't know how to run tshark or how to configure their router when they get the "network settings need to be set manually" popup
[13:06] <cgregan> With a few changes in dialog sizes and some main screen config we would have a good replacement for Claws.
[13:06] <davidm> good enough, sounds very good. Thanks for the test and the report.
[13:06] <cgregan> It would also ad great integration with Firefox and Sunbird if we wanted to add them
[13:08] <davidm> [topic] rollcall
[13:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  rollcall
[13:08]  * lool 1
[13:08] <davidm> ogra, persia, amitk lool: moblie IRC meeting
[13:08]  * ogra is here
[13:08]  * cgregan 1
[13:09]  * lool thought people would count themselves by incrementing the int
[13:09] <lool> Perhaps I should have started at zero thouhg
[13:09] <davidm> Just getting in practice for future meetings we will start out with it. thanks.
[13:09] <davidm> :-)
[13:09]  * cgregan blames it on 8am EST
[13:09] <davidm> Ha, that is as good a reason as any
[13:09] <davidm> OK next topic
[13:09] <davidm> [topic] choice of mail client modest versus thunderbird
[13:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  choice of mail client modest versus thunderbird
[13:10] <cgregan> I have not had time to evaluate modest against TB
[13:10] <lool> I did not have time to improve modest either
[13:10] <cgregan> Just TB against claws
[13:10] <lool> please carry on
[13:10] <davidm> will do
[13:10] <StevenK> Thunderbird is currently seeded
[13:10] <persia> If it's TB against claws, let's keep TB.
[13:10] <lool> My list of "should have happened before FF" things is going down, so hopefully more time soon
[13:10] <lool> persia: It's not, it's "modest against TB", see topic
[13:11] <davidm> [action] choice of mail client modest versus thunderbird (CO)
[13:11] <MootBot> ACTION received:  choice of mail client modest versus thunderbird (CO)
[13:11] <davidm> [topic] ogra to continue to chase support of Q1 touchscreen
[13:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  ogra to continue to chase support of Q1 touchscreen
[13:11] <persia> lool: Sure, but there's no modest today :)
[13:11] <persia> (and hardware hotkeys)
[13:11] <lool> persia: There's a modest, but it's plagged by bugs
[13:11] <lool> *plagued
[13:11] <davidm> I suspect we may end up with TB by default
[13:12] <ogra> which isnt necessarily a bad thing
[13:12] <lool> Certainly in the mobile seed at least
[13:12] <davidm> ogra, any progress on the Q1 touchscreen?
[13:12]  * cgregan celebrated the idea of being able to filter out spam email at the cafe on his crownbeach! :-)
[13:13] <lool> haha
[13:13] <persia> cgregan: You carred a crownbaach to a cafe?
[13:13] <cgregan> Sure.....it's a MID right?
[13:13] <lool> You need a large backpack and a UPS
[13:13] <ogra> davidm, pasting from my status report:
[13:13] <ogra> * evtouch: slow progress locally, not added to the evtouch package yet, callout script seems to work as expected, calibration tool not fixed/patched to work with the new setup yet
[13:14] <ogra> we should probably put the reports to the start
[13:14] <ogra> so actions that are covered dont have to be pasted twice
[13:14] <davidm> I'll be sending them around but perhaps we need a better way
[13:14] <ogra> well, just do the as first thing in the meeting
[13:14] <ogra> instead of the end
[13:15]  * lool +1
[13:15] <davidm> OK next topic
[13:15] <davidm> [topic] status
[13:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  status
[13:15] <lool> amitk is busy and wont report this week
[13:15] <davidm> Yea I had a feeling
[13:16] <davidm> OK then
[13:16] <davidm> ChrisGregan - QA
[13:16] <cgregan> Kicking a few small shiny devices around the room for USG this week
[13:16] <cgregan> Grabbed the UME Daily
[13:16] <cgregan> Loading on Q1 today
[13:17] <cgregan> No testing...just reference for cases
[13:17] <cgregan> hope to complete cases this week with help from persia....ahem.....spec. :-)
[13:18] <persia> Err, right.
[13:18] <davidm> cgregan, persia do we need an action here?
[13:18] <persia> Yeah.  I'll take an action.
[13:18]  * persia to write a spec for an installer
[13:18] <davidm> [action] persia to write a spec for an installer
[13:18] <MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to write a spec for an installer
[13:18] <davidm> Thanks
[13:18] <cgregan> that's it for me
[13:18] <cgregan> Oh
[13:19] <cgregan> one more thing
[13:19] <cgregan> Got an offer on my house in MD
[13:19] <cgregan> :-)
[13:19] <davidm> cgregan, cool, hope it was a good one.
[13:19] <cgregan> good enough! ;-)
[13:19] <davidm> StevenK Status?
[13:19] <lool> cgregan: Oh good news
[13:20] <cgregan> yes!
[13:20] <StevenK> davidm: Dealing with images, helping persia
[13:20] <StevenK> Sorting out what is showing up that shouldn't be, and removing it
[13:21] <StevenK> Uploaded livecd-rootfs for installer goodness, but will need another upload when I get my metapackage
[13:21] <davidm> StevenK, any blockers currently?
[13:21] <davidm> StevenK, the kernel metapackage is happening
[13:22] <StevenK> davidm: No blockers
[13:23] <davidm> StevenK, good, the metapackage might be a little slower then I had hoped, amitk is "busy"
[13:23] <davidm> status persia
[13:24] <persia> Working on the installer, helping StevenK, testing live images, testing the image-editing script.
[13:24] <lool> What's image editing script?
[13:24] <StevenK> The script that ogra wrote
[13:24] <lool> It repacks a squashfs?
[13:24] <StevenK> It's on the wiki
[13:24] <persia> Customisation of the questions asked in the installer to force things (e.g. username, password) is currently blocked by bug #268593
[13:25] <ogra> lool, the one i'm just bzr'ing to push to the new script branch
[13:25] <persia> I believe we have the last required patches to livecd-rootfs and the d-i components merged, but am still tracking issues.
[13:25] <ogra> lool, yes, it spawns a shell inside the squashfs, repacks and copies it into the .img
[13:25] <lool> Ok; I personally have scripts to manage casper-rw overlays and browse / change loop mounts, but it wont work for squashfs obviously
[13:26] <lool> ogra: Ok, I found it easier here to use a casper overlay
[13:26] <lool> But that's interesting
[13:26] <ogra> it uses an overlay
[13:26] <ogra> but you dont need to boot the image
[13:26] <persia> lool: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageModification
[13:26] <lool> So it doesn't repack?
[13:26] <ogra> i'll push it after the meeting
[13:26] <persia> It does repack.
[13:26] <ogra> it resquashes and cp's the .squashfs into the .img afterwards
[13:27] <davidm> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageModification
[13:27] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageModification
[13:27] <lool> Ok; I use an overlay at runtime too, not just for modification
[13:27] <persia> That's a bit of a different use case.
[13:28] <lool> It's cheaper
[13:28] <lool> Anyway, I'll contribute my own scripts as well soon enough
[13:28] <lool> Just two different things
[13:28] <persia> Right, and both are useful, depending on what one is doing.
[13:28] <ogra> right
[13:29] <lool> right
[13:29] <lool> davidm: right?
[13:29] <davidm> Sounds like it to me
[13:29] <davidm> so right
[13:29] <persia> davidm: Did you get a chance to test the script?
[13:30] <davidm> persia, no, I've just tested the images so far.
[13:30] <davidm> persia, who is working on the blocking bug?
[13:31] <lool> persia: Can't you just include the installer despite it failing at this point?
[13:31] <lool> So that we only have to push $package-to-fix when a fix is available
[13:31] <StevenK> We have
[13:31] <persia> davidm: cjwatson mentioned it to me.  It's blocking customisation, but not installation.  The main things that can go wrong currently are 1) the user can change the username (which means X doesn't work), and a password can be set (making admin hard on a device with no keyboard).
[13:32] <StevenK> ubiquity is in $LIVELIST, so the next image will include it
[13:32] <lool> g
[13:32] <persia> lool: Yes, I'm including the preseed, but I'll not have ubiquity run in automatic mode until it works.
[13:32] <davidm> persia, understood, so we are not blocked from using it now.
[13:32] <davidm> but mis use will break  our installs
[13:33] <ogra> use will
[13:33] <persia> davidm: No, only blocked on having the final state that we'll show users, as it will ask a couple questions that would otherwise be hidden.
[13:33] <davidm> OK thanks
[13:33] <davidm> persia, any other items in your status?
[13:34] <persia> davidm: Nope.
[13:34] <davidm> lool, status?
[13:34] <lool> Yup
[13:34] <lool> I've been helping around fighting misc issues in the images and pushing misc things for intrepid; misc non community/public work kept me occupied as well; next week I plan working on elisa and cheese -- but cheese was just uploaded (gst still broken for gspca though) -- and mobile browser/xul tasks
[13:35] <lool> no particular blocker
[13:35] <davidm> Good
[13:35] <davidm> lool, anything else?
[13:36] <lool> nope
[13:36] <davidm> status ogra ?
[13:36] <ogra> * netbook apps are all four in the archive now, included maximus and netbook-launcher into the ubuntu-mobile seed/metapackage
[13:36] <ogra> * there are massive issues with netbook-launcher i'm trying to fix now, sizes and positions are all hardcoded so i.e. using a 48px panel as ubuntu-mobile does for touchscreen use requires patching (which i'm currently working on)
[13:36] <ogra> * massive problems with netbook-launcher and clutter 0.8 font handling (swallows letters all the time), i'm trying to identify whats wrong but am slightly lost as i'm not a clutter dev
[13:36] <ogra> * evtouch: slow progress locally, not added to the evtouch package yet, callout script seems to work as expected, calibration tool not fixed/patched to work with the new setup yet
[13:36] <ogra> * started looking into hardy langpack updates
[13:36] <ogra> * set up a bzr branch to carry all our various scripts, owned by ubuntu-mobile-dev feel free to go wild and commit your hacks and scripts at:
[13:36] <ogra> https://code.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-mobile-dev/ubuntu-mobile/mobile-scripts :)
[13:36] <ogra> * cmpc packages (cheese/gstreamer) are source and binary NEWed and were accepted for -proposed by the sru team waiting for test feedback ... (everyone: gstreamer regression tests of hard-proposed packages on normal ubuntu desktops would be appreciated)
[13:36] <ogra> * took new task for next week to look at hotkey support for Q1 as well
[13:36] <ogra> * sorting various smaller edubuntu and ltsp duties (trying to calm huge complaint thread on edubuntu-users ML because it doesnt get much developer attention anymore) ...
[13:37] <davidm> ogra, wow you were just waiting for me ;-)
[13:37] <ogra> no further blockers ...
[13:37] <davidm> Thanks
[13:37] <ogra> yeah, i'm lazy :)
[13:38] <ogra> oh, any my car issues are sorted :)
[13:38] <davidm> ogra, glad to hear that, in the Dallas TX area in the US you have to have a car or you are stuck.
[13:39] <davidm> I think Germany is a little different but still nice.
[13:39] <ogra> i didnt have one for 2 years
[13:39] <ogra> and didnt really miss it
[13:39] <ogra> but the one i got offered only has 10000miles (16000km) on the counter and was so cheap i couldnt say no
[13:39] <ogra> (1800€)
[13:40] <davidm> Sweet
[13:40] <davidm> OK I have two activity reports already, and I'm just waiting for the rest of them to arrive and I'll post them to the list.
[13:41] <davidm> I'd like  to invite the rest of the community if they would like their status posted to send me an activity report and I'll include it into the report that is sent out.
[13:41] <davidm> Of course you don't have to wait for us but you are welcome to have me merge it if you like
[13:42] <davidm> Option is there for anyone that wants it.
[13:42]  * ogra would find it massively cool to see what the community does/works on
[13:42] <davidm> OK the next topic was choice of mail client but we don't have enough info I think so I'll carry it
[13:42] <StevenK> I thought we covered that
[13:43]  * ogra has TB on the ubuntu-mobile seed since it exists 
[13:43] <davidm> StevenK, we sort of did but it was somehow in twice.
[13:43] <StevenK> Thunderbird is in -mid, too
[13:43] <ogra> StevenK, oh, i forgot we need to talk about patches to livecd-rootfs to build ubuntu-mobile images
[13:43] <davidm> my bad likely, I edit that page right after this meeting and it's still quite early here.
[13:43] <persia> We're currently using Thunderbird: if we get modest in shape before e.g. UI freeze, let's reconsider.
[13:43] <ogra> and to your script
[13:44] <ogra> StevenK, trivial changes likely
[13:44] <davidm> So floor is open
[13:44] <StevenK> ogra: Yup. We'll want to talk to infinity too, since it will trigger script changes.
[13:44] <ogra> yep
[13:45] <ogra> but i imagine its less than 10 lines
[13:45] <StevenK> Which arch do you want it on?
[13:45] <lool> I'd like to mention maemo summit and associated matters
[13:46] <lool> Next week, davidm and myself are flying to Berlin; ogra are you coming?
[13:46] <davidm> lool, good idea
[13:46] <lool> From the 16th to the 21st, I'll be away from home
[13:46] <davidm> ogra, is coming out too
[13:46] <ogra> lool, i do :) have to sort out stuff with my friends and havent registered yet, but i want to test the car ;)
[13:46] <lool> It might make it challenging to lead the IRC meeting, so someone please step up if davidm and I aren't around
[13:47] <lool> (and while I'm it, on a more personal note: I wont call coworkers either as I usually do on Tuesdays)
[13:47]  * persia volunteers to chair
[13:47] <davidm> I'll be away from the 15th through the 23rd so some of my weekly calls are going to be challenging too.
[13:47] <StevenK> No fair calling while you're on a plane
[13:48] <lool> If you need anything urgent/important, try to mention it before monday to leave me some time to look at it before flying
[13:48] <davidm> StevenK, exactly, planes are hard
[13:48] <ogra> there are some with WLAN ... you could do VOIP :)
[13:48] <ogra> choppy though i bet
[13:48] <lool> Sure, I'm just not sure of what will happen at that time so it might be more relevant to attend $thing than to give $call
[13:49] <davidm> I use VOIP a lot from the road, if I have good enough network it's fine
[13:49] <ogra> davidm, well, its like 2M for the whole plane ...
[13:49] <lool> (I don't think it's a matter of finding phone/voip coverage, just that the point is to attend OSIM and maemo summit :-)
[13:49] <ogra> even IRC is hard, i tried it once on a lufthansa flight
[13:50] <davidm> Very true, I'm working the show floor at OSiM World so I should meet some interesting people.
[13:50] <davidm> :-)
[13:50] <davidm> 10 minute warning
[13:50] <lool> If you people want us to bring up particular topics related to Ubuntu MID or Mobile during these events, shoot an email with the Q
[13:50] <davidm> but I think we have covered everything
[13:51] <lool> We'll report on these when coming back naturally
[13:51] <davidm> Yes please.
[13:51] <davidm> Let us know.
[13:51] <lool> Happy to close meeting now
[13:52] <lool> My baby rings
[13:52] <davidm> Ok so if there is nothing else I'll close the meeting so going once ..................................................................................................
[13:52] <lool> davidm: Thanks for chairing
[13:52] <davidm> glad to do so.
[13:53] <davidm> close the meeting so going twice .......................................
[13:54] <davidm> #endmeeting
[13:54] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:54.
[13:58] <seb128> hi
[13:58] <pitti> hello everyone
[13:58] <MacSlow> hey seb128 , pitti
[13:59]  * heno waves
[13:59] <pedro_> hello!
[13:59] <pitti> mvo, mpt, Riddell, tedg: there?
[13:59] <tedg> Good morning ya'll (/me is trying to learn Texan)
[14:00] <pitti> tedg: howdy!
[14:00] <MacSlow> hi tedg
[14:00] <pitti> meeting prep and activity: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-09-11
[14:00] <mpt> hello
[14:00] <Riddell> hi
[14:00] <pitti> how's the desktop team, alright?
[14:01] <mvo> hello!
[14:01] <MacSlow> hey Riddell, mvo
[14:01] <Riddell> I'm great
[14:01] <MacSlow> pitti, we grew a bit recently :)
[14:01] <pitti> MacSlow: oh?
[14:01] <Riddell> I'm also in Edinburgh, yay
[14:01] <pitti> Riddell: but that didn't change recently, did it? :-)
[14:01] <mvo> MacSlow: you became taller?
[14:01] <MacSlow> pitti, well the "experience" part of the team :)
[14:02] <pitti> ah, indeed
[14:02] <MacSlow> mvo, I gave up all hope regarding that :)
[14:02] <pitti> MacSlow: so ATM you're half/half desktop/experience?
[14:02] <Riddell> pitti: yes, but if you never noticed any different then that's all good :)
[14:02] <pitti> so, let's start with the outstanding actions
[14:02] <pitti> mvo to talk to QA about the possibility of a "package-failures" component and triaging it.
[14:03] <pitti> TBH I don't quite like that approach, but let's see what came out of it
[14:03] <pitti> mvo?
[14:03] <Riddell> what does component mean here?
[14:03] <pitti> Riddell: I think "LP project"
[14:03] <mvo> gar
[14:04] <mvo> still not done :(
[14:04] <mvo> I was busy with meeting the UI freeze
[14:04] <pitti> so instead of having package inst failures reported against the particular package, it'd go to a seaparate project, like "hardy-backports"
[14:04] <mvo> yes, that was the idea
[14:04] <pitti> mvo: are you still convinced that this is a viable and sane option?
[14:05] <pitti> if so, maybe you can do it this week, and we'll talk about it at the next meeting?
[14:05] <mvo> I never really was, but there were some concerns that the reports are not that useful
[14:05] <mvo> and clutter the buglist
[14:05] <mvo> I will do that, sorry for being so late about it again
[14:05] <pitti> OTOH few, if any people would actually read those mails, no?
[14:05] <mpt> That looks like a job for a tag
[14:05] <pitti> we shuold clean up the messy input rather (better filtering, better reports, audo-dupes, etc.)
[14:06] <heno> QA would generally support getting bugs divided up into groups, there may be other ways though
[14:06] <pitti> mpt: it already has, apport-package
[14:06] <seb128> my concern is not mails
[14:06] <seb128> I work on bug lists
[14:06] <pitti> mails are not an issue
[14:06] <seb128> and that clutters the list
[14:06] <pitti> the bugs are private
[14:06] <pitti> or, could be
[14:06] <mvo> I could prefer better filtering
[14:06] <seb128> pitti: upgrade issues are not private
[14:06] <seb128> and private bugs clutter the lists too :-p
[14:06] <cjwatson> personally my main problem is that I've rarely seen one of the automatic package-failure bugs that I can ever actually figure out; I always have to go to mvo for help
[14:06] <mpt> mvo, so you need the ability to subscribe to a tag? or what?
[14:06] <pitti> right, that's what I mean, they often are attached to the wrong package, etc.
[14:06] <cjwatson> it would help if the dpkg output were much more clearly extracted, and there often seem to be problems with them being filed on the wrong packages
[14:07] <seb128> my experience is that 90% of those are either mis-assigned or local corruption issues
[14:07] <mvo> mpt: that would be useful, yes
[14:07] <mpt> mvo, anything else?
[14:07] <pitti> so instead of shoving useless reports away to a dumpign ground project, we should rather improve them in the first place IMHO
[14:07] <mvo> seb128: I posted some data about that to ubuntu-desktop some weeks ago
[14:07] <seb128> improving bug reports is always a good idea no discussion there
[14:07] <mvo> I think its not 90%, but its cleary too much that is not useful
[14:08] <seb128> mvo: no you didn't
[14:08] <mvo> but for your specific set of packages its probably worse
[14:08] <mvo> seb128: no?
[14:08] <pitti> I saw the post
[14:08] <seb128> mvo: the only mail you sent to ubuntu-desktop this year is about sandbox, or I delete it by mistake or something
[14:08] <mvo> cjwatson: better extraction of the failure in the log is definitely a good point
[14:09] <mvo> seb128: hm, let me look for the message id, maybe is was ubuntu-devel?
[14:09] <pitti> anyway, I think the current reports deserve a compete overhaul in order to be machine and human parseable
[14:09] <seb128> mvo: arg sorry, looked on the wron box
[14:09] <pitti> mvo, seb128: let's find the mail after the meeting and link it to the report page
[14:09] <pitti> mvo: so again, if you think it would be a good interim solution, please go ahead and talk to the QA team for their input
[14:10] <mvo> I will, thanks
[14:10] <pitti> otherwise discard it, and the action item, and we'll concentrate on improving the reports (which we shuold do anyway, FWIW)
[14:10] <pitti> ok, other outstanding action item: seb128 to update whiteboard of intrepid-menus-review and better-login-speed for remaining todos
[14:10] <mvo> improve the reports++
[14:11] <seb128> pitti: I did update those
[14:11] <pitti> seb128: ah, merci
[14:11] <pitti> "mvo: do I need a formal feature freeze expection for compiz or is there an expection like for gnome? a release is prepared currently and it would be nice to give them up-to-date packages for better testing exposure"
[14:11] <pitti> s/expection/exception/, I take it
[14:11] <mvo> yes
[14:12] <mvo> sorry for the typo
[14:12] <pitti> traditionally we only gave a blanket exception for official GNOME components
[14:12] <seb128> neither of those are complete, but the specs are not really precise and have quite some upstream points which require work and I'm already streching over my limit only keeping GNOME uptodate and in shape so I didn't manage to work on those
[14:12] <pitti> so in this case I don't think we should handle it as implicitly granted without further consent by TB or RM
[14:12] <seb128> mvo: the freeze exception for GNOME is mainly because they have similar freeze
[14:12] <seb128> ie now they are feature, UI, string, API, ABI, etc frozen
[14:12] <mvo> ok, I will prepare a update in my PPA and ask the RM
[14:13] <pitti> mvo: I'd prefer handling this as a normal FFE request; of course it will be considered appropriately, given how important it is for us
[14:13] <kwwii> better late than never :-)
[14:13] <pitti> seb128: right, understood; it is just good to have an up to date summary of the status
[14:13] <pitti> hey kwwii
[14:13] <mvo> seb128: right, I kow that. compiz has much less of a formal process for this, but they are have a synced release cycle with us (and fedora)
[14:13] <pitti> mvo: on that matter, when will compiz get enabled by default again?
[14:13] <MacSlow> hi kwwii
[14:13] <mvo> I certainly hope so :)
[14:14] <pitti> is it a matter of breage with the new GNOME session?
[14:14] <pitti> I'm interested in why it currently isn't
[14:14] <mvo> gnome-session was giving us some trouble here
[14:14] <seb128> pitti: it should already be at the moment
[14:14] <seb128> gnome-wm is the default in gnome-session since 2.23.90
[14:14] <pitti> hm, not here (intel GMA945)
[14:14] <seb128> let's take that on #ubuntu-desktop after meeting
[14:14] <seb128> that's a bug
[14:14] <pitti> ok, let's
[14:15] <pitti> so the state is that "it should work again like in hardy" now?
[14:15] <pitti> "Riddell: how to organise FOSSCamp and UDS sponsorships"
[14:16] <seb128> pitti: compiz? yes
[14:16] <pitti> I can't personally tell, Keybuk mainly did the preps; unless cjwatson can help out here?
[14:16] <Riddell> we have this interesting new system jono announced, if we want people to come do they really have to find something on brainstorm to do?
[14:16] <pitti> Riddell: the rough plan that I know is that we stop proposing guests, but they have to actively apply themselves in order to get sponsored
[14:16] <pitti> I think jono blogged about it
[14:17] <Riddell> and I've not heard anything about FOSSCamp
[14:17] <Riddell> if it needs keybuk to explain it, I hope he gets well soon, deadline isn't too far away :)
[14:17] <Riddell> I hope he gets well soon anyway of course
[14:18] <heno> if there are people you think should be there you can help them throough that process, including finding some brainstorm topics and read their application before they post it
[14:18] <pitti> Riddell: well, I'd expect it to be a little less rigid; if their application points out some strong things which they'd like to work on, I could imagine that this is sufficient
[14:18] <mpt> http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=1278
[14:18] <heno> we wanted applicants to associate themselves with specs/projects and not just turn up to listen
[14:19] <Riddell> the problem with brainstorm is it only covers a certain type of contribution, we have some great KDE main modules packaging going on in the kubuntu community and I'd like some of those people there, but it's not a brainstorm idea
[14:19] <pitti> heno: right, but e. g. I know people I'd really like to come which have done an awesome amount of work, but nevertheless not associated to brainstorm; rather to specs; I don't think we should impose too much red tape on them
[14:20] <pitti> so "specs/projects" should be a little wider than just "brainstorm"; blueprints should e. g. count as well
[14:20] <heno> Riddell: it's more important that they come to UDS with an idea of what they want to tyalk about than that it's already proposed in brainstorm
[14:20] <heno> pitti: agreed
[14:20] <cjwatson> brainstorm is the default and for many people the easiest, but if people turn up with other specific proposals and they're any good, then that will likely be fine too
[14:20] <pitti> no user will ever request somethign like "let's repackage the nvidia driver with dkms", nevertheless it's important and beneficial to do so
[14:21] <pitti> right
[14:21] <cjwatson> the main point is just to make sure that every sponsored attendee is motivated to achieve something specific
[14:21] <cjwatson> more than just "hey, they came last time and were kind of fun"
[14:21] <pitti> and their application should clearly point out what they're going to work on
[14:21] <cjwatson> yes
[14:21] <pitti> of course there will always be people which *we* would like to come
[14:21] <pitti> and invite
[14:22] <pitti> I guess for those we'll have a slightly different process as well
[14:22] <Riddell> and FOSSCamp?
[14:22] <pitti> I quickly talked about this with Scott, and he agreed, but we didn't talk about details
[14:22] <Riddell> jcastro?
[14:23] <Riddell> well, I can ask him when he appears
[14:23] <kwwii> I received an inviation to attend fosscamp from jcastro
[14:23] <Riddell> but surely facebook isn't the only way its being organised :)
[14:24] <pitti> so, I think we should bring this up again when Scott returns
[14:24] <Riddell> yep, move on
[14:24] <pitti> Riddell: any other questions which we could discuss/answer right now?
[14:24] <pitti> ok
[14:24] <pitti> "Riddell: 8.04 to 9.04 as an upgrade path?"
[14:24] <pitti> any particular reason for that?
[14:24] <Riddell> intrepid is a big step for Kubuntu users as an upgrade
[14:25] <Riddell> same as Ubuntu..
[14:25] <Riddell> but ubuntu is LTS so it won't prompt for upgraade until the next LTS
[14:25] <pitti> for people who didn't install the kde 4 variant in hardy, I guess
[14:25] <Riddell> yes
[14:25] <Riddell> we can't do that since we're not LTS, so we had the idea it might make sense to prompt for upgrade not this release but next
[14:26] <Riddell> which would mean supporting a new upgrade path 8.04 -> 9.04
[14:26] <Riddell> that might well be too much work
[14:26] <Riddell> and we should just put big warning in the pre-upgrade release notes
[14:26] <Riddell> but if it's not too much work, would it be sensible?
[14:26] <pitti> mvo: oh, u-m doesn't even offer a 8.04 -> 8.10 upgrade? I thought it just wouldn't create a notification bubble
[14:27] <mvo> I guess most of the work is the additional testing for 8.04->9.04
[14:27] <mvo> pitti: its a configuration option in gnome-software-properties
[14:27] <heno> I think we could take on that testing
[14:27] <mvo> by default it will not offer the upgrade in update-manager
[14:27] <pitti> Riddell: in general I believe it is not significantly more work to support 8.04 -> 9.04 than to properly support 8.04 -> 8.10 -> 9.04
[14:27] <mvo> only if you click on "prompt for all upgrades"
[14:27] <heno> by that time we should have better automation there
[14:27] <pitti> Riddell: if this is known from day 1 in 9.04, then we can be careful to not drop any preinsts etc.
[14:28] <pitti> which we can't do anyway, since we need to support 8.04 -> 10.04 (LTS -> LTS)
[14:28] <Riddell> right
[14:28] <pitti> mvo: ok, thanks
[14:28] <pitti> Riddell: so, IOW, if 8.04->9.04 won't work, then we'll have even more work with the next LTS upgrade
[14:28] <pitti> so we can just support it right away
[14:28] <Riddell> groovy
[14:28] <pitti> Riddell, mvo: would it be possible and sensible to offer this differently in the gtk and kde UIs?
[14:29] <mvo> yes and yes
[14:29] <pitti> I don't think that ubuntu 9.04 will be special "enough" in order to change the current scheme
[14:29] <pitti> but I do see the purpose for KDE 3 -> 4
[14:29] <cjwatson> we can't go dropping upgrade compatibility in 9.04 anyway, since otherwise we'll just have to put it back in for 10.04
[14:29] <mvo> I agree
[14:29] <pitti> Riddell: do you *actually* want 9.04, or wouldn't it be much more desirable to offer upgrade to 8.10?
[14:30] <pitti> cjwatson: exactly
[14:30] <cjwatson> oh, pitti already said that, jinx
[14:30] <pitti> cjwatson: I like violent agreement :)
[14:30] <Riddell> pitti: I think we'd like people to activly want to upgrade to 8.10, so people can but they should have an idea that it'll be a big change
[14:30] <Riddell> which is what happens on the ubuntu side as I say
[14:30] <pitti> Riddell: or do you think 4.1 is still not mature enough to offer it to KDE 3 Hardy users?
[14:31] <pitti> Riddell: the button will show the release notes, so indeed it should be highlighted there
[14:31] <pitti> Riddell: so my Q is still why we should only offer it for 9.04 and not for 8.04 (KDE 4.1 is said to have become really stable and good, after all? or do you disagree?)
[14:31] <Riddell> pitti: there's still a lot of support for keeping KDE 3 on users desktops and I don't think that class of user should be pushed into KDE 4 yet
[14:32] <pitti> Riddell: alright
[14:32] <pitti> so, fine with me personally, anyone else have objections?
[14:32] <Riddell> I think it's stable and good but maybe not really stable and good :)  also the upgrade isn't very well tested yet
[14:32] <jcastro> Riddell: you're not the first person asking about KDE/brainstorm, I'll have an answer for you shortly.
[14:32] <seele> jcastro: +1 from me, i already complained to the source about it
[14:33] <pitti> ok
[14:33] <Riddell> I'll talk more with the Kubuntu team and we'll work out just what we want and how to do it
[14:33] <pitti> "seb128: the new gnome-session dialog is available in intrepid, do we want to use this one?"
[14:33] <Riddell> (for the upgrade question)
[14:33] <pitti> Riddell: sounds good; but in general your proposal sounds sane IMHO
[14:33] <pitti> seb128: "this one" -> as provided by upstream, which is currently in intrepid
[14:34] <seb128> right
[14:34] <pitti> as opposed to "something similar to hardy"?
[14:34] <mvo> Riddell: lets work out a plan how to do it in update-manager after the meeting (should be striaghtward)
[14:34] <pitti> mpt: WDYT about the current one?
[14:34] <seb128> pitti: well, that's basically "what do we do for intrepid"
[14:34] <vuntz> pitti: (this new dialog is currently blocked in a bug upstream, fwiw)
[14:34] <seb128> pitti: should we escalade that to mdz?
[14:34] <pitti> personally I really like the split between logging of and shutting down the computer, since they are pretty unrelated to each other, and (2) providing all in the same dialog makes it too big
[14:34] <seb128> vuntz: I distro patched it
[14:34] <mpt> pitti, the current one in Intrepid? It's not pleasant
[14:35] <mpt> It's good that it explains each option
[14:35] <vuntz> seb128: I know, just wanted to make things clear. Sorry for spying :-)
[14:35] <seb128> mpt: did you find the hardy one pleasant?
[14:35] <pitti> mpt: the workflow, or the UI, or both?
[14:35] <mpt> seb128, no :-)
[14:35] <pitti> vuntz: good to have you here
[14:35] <seb128> mpt: do you want to go back to the hardy one?
[14:35]  * seb128 hugs vuntz
[14:35] <mpt> but the missing borders and the inconsistently-sized icons are weird
[14:35] <seb128> mpt: that's fixable
[14:36] <mpt> seb128, if those two bugs are fixable today, then okay, otherwise I think the Hardy one would be better
[14:36] <seb128> mpt: using the hardy one means rewritting it, the code which was patched doesn't exist in intrepid
[14:36] <vuntz> mpt: I'd love a list of things to fix in this dialog. FWIW, calum prefers to stay with a standard dialog (what is currently in upstream).
[14:36] <pitti> mpt: do you like the split between logging out/switchign users, and poweroff/reboot/suspend/hibernate? (I do)
[14:36] <mpt> Flow-wise they're both meh :-)
[14:37] <seb128> mpt: so as long as we rewritte something we can as well write something we want
[14:37] <seb128> mpt: can you make a review of the issues in the new dialog? would make vuntz happy too apparently ;-)
[14:37] <heno> I also like the separation FWIW
[14:37] <pitti> can we make this an action item offline?
[14:38] <mpt> seb128, what we want is in the ExitStrategy spec, but that requires several person-months of work probably.
[14:38] <pitti> mpt to review the current shutdown/logout dialog and give some recommendations/fixes to upstream and LP bugs
[14:38] <pitti> mpt: ^ would that be ok for you?
[14:38] <mpt> ok
[14:38] <seb128> if we keep the split we also need to decide what to do about the icon in the corner
[14:38] <seb128> not sure if it still makes sense when half of the options are listed
[14:38] <mdz> seb128: indeed
[14:38] <mpt> The icon in the corner is being replaced by the fusa-applet afaik
[14:38] <mpt> tedg?
[14:38] <pitti> ++ for that
[14:39] <seb128> ok, so:
[14:39] <seb128> - replace the icon by fusa
[14:39] <seb128> - mpt lists things to change in the current dialog for intrepid
[14:39] <pitti> ack
[14:39] <pitti> mpt ^ ok for you as well?
[14:39] <seb128> mpt: this spec is indeed not intrepid material
[14:39] <mpt> yep
[14:40] <pitti> good, let's go on with our full schedule for today
[14:40] <pitti> "seb128: Seb: gnome-keyring has a configure option to disable the ACL dialogs "
[14:40] <pitti> sorry, double-seb
[14:40] <pitti> seb128: can you please explain this a little further?
[14:40] <tedg> You can never have too many seb's.
[14:40]  * mpt thinks doubling seb would be an excellent idea
[14:40] <seb128> pitti: I gave the bug number which has details
[14:40] <pitti> that's pretty damn true!
[14:41]  * mvo hugs seb256
[14:41] <seb128> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=533493
[14:41] <ogra> seb128, note that NCommander said he would look at porting the hardy dialog while you were on holiday
[14:41] <seb128> that's to disable the ""Allow program X to access keyring Y"
[14:41] <ogra> seb128, makes probably sense to notify him to stop that and not waste time if we dont go back
[14:42] <seb128> ogra: NCommander is doing way to many things ;-)
[14:42] <pitti> seb128: the whitelist solution?
[14:42] <seb128> ogra: will talk to him
[14:42] <pitti> seb128: completely disabling this question sounds a bit too much to me
[14:43] <pitti> i. e. the bug is that the dialog appears with network-manager, not that it appears in situation where keyring access is in fact unexpected?
[14:43] <mpt> so it should be asked once per program per computer, rather than once per program per session
[14:43] <seb128> pitti: the dialog are the "do you allow this application to access to the gnome-keyring"
[14:44] <seb128> pitti: not the one asking for a password
[14:44] <pitti> yeah, I know
[14:44] <seb128> ie if you try going on a sftp share in nautilus
[14:44] <seb128> you will gedit "gedit tries to acces to gnome-keyring" when opening a document
[14:44] <pitti> QUESTION: is everyone ok with extending the meeting today? or does anyone need to leave in 15 minutes?
[14:45]  * Riddelll in no rush
[14:45] <seb128> that might be rather a list discussion
[14:45] <pitti> (I don't feel like cutting discussions just because we're out of time)
[14:45] <seb128> I put it there because I read about the option and fedora is using and I thought we should maybe consider it
[14:45] <pitti> seb128: but in fact we do expect n-m and pidgin to access the keyring, and they shuold be allowed without any question IMHO; that would make the dialog more useful
[14:45] <tedg> pitti: There may be another meeting though -- I think the Java guys are here.
[14:46] <seb128> let's move that to #ubuntu-desktop after meeting with interested people
[14:46] <ogra> pitti, the java meeting is at 14:00 UTC
[14:46] <pitti> ok
[14:46] <pitti> let's go on then
[14:46] <pitti> "seb128: what is exactly the policy about adding changes to desktop packages? gnome-control-center starts having quite some distribution changes for example, shouldn't those be sent upstream before being added to ubuntu?"
[14:46] <seb128> I guess we should keep this one for when scott will be back rather
[14:47] <pitti> our general policy nowadays should be to always forward patches upstream as well, including references to discussions and sketches, etc.
[14:47] <pitti> we have all been guilty of applying ubuntu-only patches which we are sitting on now, but we should stop doing that
[14:47] <seb128> the tendency at the moment is to do distro change first and then forward or discuss that afterward as time permit
[14:48] <pitti> we shouldn't go as far as blocking on upstream *accepting* our patches, but they should be reported and discussed with them
[14:48] <seb128> which often means people don't because they have too much to do
[14:48] <seb128> righ
[14:48] <seb128> right
[14:48] <pitti> seb128: that shuold be done at the same time
[14:48] <seb128> because the other way around we just add maintainship workload on the ubuntu side
[14:48] <pitti> seb128: so if there are heavy patches, please prod their authors to submit them upstream and discuss it with them
[14:48] <pitti> seb128: and otherwise, ask them to update them to a new upstream version
[14:48] <seb128> alright
[14:49] <pitti> seb128: but I don't think we can entirely get rid of carrying such patches
[14:49] <pitti> there are changes which originate in Ubuntu which we wnat in the next release
[14:49] <pitti> so we have to carry that pain to a certain degree
[14:49] <pitti> but we shuoldn't carry it indefinitely
[14:49] <ogra> .oO( we could just take over upstream)
[14:49]  * ogra hides
[14:50] <pitti> seb128: e. g. the keyboard dialog changes you referenced; if that change is reported upstream, and they didn't outright say "no, that sucks", we shuold care about the patch for a while
[14:50] <pitti> do you all think that's a reasonable compromise?
[14:50] <seb128> pitti: the change is not reported upstream yet but mvo said he will do that
[14:50] <pitti> action: mvo to submit the gnome-control-center changes upstream
[14:50] <seb128> pitti: yes, as long as people doing changes take discussions upstream too rather than just dropping that on the plate of people who maintain those packages
[14:50] <mvo> *cough*
[14:51] <seb128> nothings against mvo there
[14:51] <mvo> I did before and the feedback was not that great, but I will try again
[14:51]  * seb128 hugs mvo
[14:51] <pitti> I spent the entire weekend with cleaning up old cups patches, but it's so much better now :)
[14:51] <seb128> that was just this week example ;-)
[14:51] <pitti> yeah, but it was a pretty good one
[14:51] <pitti> since I know how much glade patches suck
[14:51] <pitti> but well, no short-term way around them
[14:52] <pitti> ok, let's skip the sponsoring review this week; please everyone catch up on it
[14:52] <pitti> release status: I don't think I personally have something that needs discussion with the entire team
[14:52] <pitti> I'd like to prod some of you later today about some spec status, to get an update for tomorrow's release meeting
[14:53] <pitti> so, AOB?
[14:53] <seb128> pitti: see we are on time ;-)
[14:53]  * pitti apologizes for his rather aggressive meeting driving today; BTW, feedback about the general meeting format or discussion length/depth appreciated
[14:54] <pitti> oh, and one note
[14:54] <pitti> Scott, Matt, and I are in Portland next week, Linux Plumber's conference
[14:54] <mvo> have fun there
[14:55] <pitti> so if you want to have a team meeting, please just do an ad-hoc one and send notes to u-desktop@, or we just skip it
[14:55] <pitti> would everyone agree to skipping it and putting urgent discussions to u-desktop@?
[14:55] <seb128> pitti: thanks for leading the meeting ;-)
[14:55] <pitti> seb128: my pleasure
[14:55] <seb128> pitti: I'm fine skipping next week meeting and discussing any issue on the list
[14:55] <mpt> thanks pitti
[14:56] <mvo> thanks
[14:56]  * mvo rushes off
[14:56] <MacSlow> so long
[14:56] <pitti> ok, have a good day everyone, thanks all
[14:56] <pitti> rock on, desktoppers
[14:57] <pitti> pedro_, cjwatson1, heno: thanks for joining
[14:57] <kwwii> have fun
[15:00] <persia> Who's here for the Java meeting?
[15:02] <Koon> o/
[15:02] <persia> Hrm.  We're short today.
[15:03] <Riddelll> drat, no volunteers to package jambi or nepomuk for me then :)
[15:03] <persia> Let's give it 5 minutes.  I know slytherin might not be able to make it.
[15:03] <persia> Riddell: Actually, there's been a long-outstanding question in the team that you might be able to answer.
[15:04] <persia> Currently, there are "metal" and "gtk" bindings for some of the Java widgets, but there aren't any QT bindings.  Do you know of anyone who might like to work on that?
[15:06] <persia> OK.  5 minutes up.
[15:06] <persia> Koon, do you have anything special to announce, or shall we postpone this meeting until next week?
[15:06] <Koon> persia: yes I have
[15:07] <Koon> persia: please have a look at the "KISS" design in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Specs/MavenSupportSpec
[15:07] <Riddelll> persia: bindings?  or theme?
[15:07] <Koon> just to know if it sounds possible to you (read: policy-compatible)
[15:08] <Koon> persia: I've been struggling so much with maven-JPP that I found there might just be a very simple solution to our problem
[15:09] <Koon> it's so simple that I probably missed something, and wanted to discuss the design with the rest of the team
[15:09] <Koon> which means, you.
[15:11] <persia> Riddell: Basically a final solution to bug #99445.  Someone from Sun called the required code "QT peers", but I'm not sure where it fits on the theme/bindings continuum
[15:12] <persia> Koon: That looks like a nice clean hack to get it working now.
[15:12] <Koon> I tested that maven doesn't mind following links
[15:12] <persia> It's a bit of extra work for the packager of any maven-requiring package, but it means *lots* less infrastructural effort.
[15:12] <Koon> from a quick poc it seems to be working, I'll do a more complete when I'll have some free time
[15:12] <persia> It's policy compliant as long as there really aren't any .jar files left over in debian/ at the end, and it's just maven junk.
[15:13] <Riddell> persia: reads like a theming issue, would be fiddly to do
[15:13] <Koon> persia: it's also far easier to debug
[15:14] <persia> It would probably be good to get a common script together and put it in maven so packages build-depending on maven could just include the makefile snippet in rules, and add a config file to create the links.
[15:14] <Koon> persia: sure
[15:14] <persia> Riddell: OK.  Do you think it's worth pushing out as a call for work to be done, or do you think most Kubuntu users will be happy with metal?
[15:15] <Koon> slytherin: yay
[15:15] <persia> slytherin: You made it!
[15:16] <persia> We're just talking about KDE peers and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Specs/MavenSupportSpec
[15:16] <slytherin> Koon: I am going to eb silent listener mostly
[15:16] <persia> s/KDE/QT/
[15:17] <Koon> slytherin: when you'll have more time, please have a look at the "KISS solution" in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Specs/MavenSupportSpec
[15:17] <Riddell> persia: you can try, but I suspect it's sufficiently tricky and sufficiently low priority that nobody would be interested
[15:17] <Koon> slytherin: just comment in the wikipage directly
[15:18] <persia> Riddell: OK.  That's exactly the sort of feedback I sought: lack of interest means I'll drop it from my list of things that we might do.  If there's a couple killer apps, maybe someone will get interested.
[15:18] <persia> Riddell: Thanks for your advice.
[15:18] <Riddell> right
[15:19] <Koon> persia: it's true it's more work for the packager. But he is the one with the energy to make it succeed. Waiting for some hypothetic infrastructure work before starting any maven packaging probably won't fly
[15:19] <persia> Koon: I think you're right.  I like this idea a lot.
[15:20] <persia> Once we have a working PoC for a package, we ought take it to Debian to increase the pool of packagers.
[15:20] <Koon> persia: the problem for a complete POC is the missing build deps
[15:21] <Koon> you already have to package a few JARs to have a basic Maven helloWorld working
[15:21]  * Koon looks
[15:21] <persia> Aren't most of the build-deps also dependent on maven?  I'd think we could do a PoC from somewhere on the bottom of the stack.
[15:22] <Koon> the stack is kinda circular, if you see what I mean
[15:23] <persia> Hrm.  So we need to do some bootstrap analysis to figure out how to get started.
[15:23] <Koon> i'll start a page for tracking work to be done to get a helloWorld working
[15:24] <Koon> i'll present it at next meeting
[15:24] <persia> Koon: Excellent, thank you.
[15:24] <Koon> that's all from my side
[15:25] <persia> OK.  Next, slytherin mentioned he's planning to not talk much, but left status at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/MoveToUniverse
[15:25] <Koon> hm. I've a little more
[15:25] <persia> Looks like we have 5 more packages on the way, including the dbus bindings
[15:26] <Koon> I've been working on tomcat5.5 fixes for Intrepid
[15:26] <Koon> at the moment it won't even install from scratch.
[15:26] <Koon> I plan to rollback a couple of fixes as an hardy SRU
[15:27] <Koon> (and that's really all)
[15:27]  * slytherin raises hand
[15:28] <slytherin> persia: dbus-java is dependent on libmatthew-java. I will try fixing libmatthew-java FTBFS today
[15:28] <persia> Koon: When you say "roll back", what do you mean?  Is it more updates, or does stuff have to get pulled?
[15:29] <persia> slytherin: OK.  So we're waiting on the FTBFS for that?
[15:29] <slytherin> yes
[15:29] <persia> slytherin: Any other notes?
[15:30] <slytherin> because the dbus-java version which is supposed to move to universe has not yet built
[15:30] <Koon> persia: for example, fixing the JDK_HOME list so that it runs with OpenJDK
[15:30] <persia> Koon: OK.  I was just worried we might have to chase more freeze exceptions.  If it's just making something broken work, we ought be safe.
[15:31] <persia> slytherin: OK.  Do you need anything for that, or are you making good progress?
[15:31] <slytherin> persia: good progress. I may be filing few more FFE. I admit I should have done all this before FF.
[15:32] <Koon> for tomcat5.5 in intrepid there are a few borderline cases, but i don't think they are FFe-relevant. Will check with my sponsor.
[15:32] <persia> slytherin: OK.  While some of those are worth Feature Freeze exceptions, I don't think they will be worth BetaFreeze exceptions.  You've perhaps another week and a half to get everything for intrepid done.
[15:33] <slytherin> persia: I should be done by weekend.
[15:33] <persia> OK.  Cool.
[15:34] <persia> And I suppose that I should mention that all the dependencies for NetBeans 6.1 finally got completed this week, so I'll be updating it and removing the old cruft.
[15:34] <persia> Anyone have anything else?  Anyone need help with something specific?
[15:35] <slytherin> persia: Congrats on netbeans work. :-) It wasn't easy.
[15:35] <persia> slytherin: Full credit belongs to the NetBeans team, not to me.
[15:35] <slytherin> I know.
[15:36] <slytherin> Still reviewing the package is no minor accomplishment
[15:36] <persia> Luckily I actually use it :)
[15:36] <persia> OK.  Until next week then.
[15:36] <persia> slytherin to complete the MoveToMain planning for intrepid.
[15:37] <persia> Koon to do some preliminary analysis for bootstrapping maven
[15:37] <persia> persia to file removals for old NetBeans cruft.
[15:39] <Koon> ok, see you all next week then
[19:37] <emgent> hello
[19:41] <amireldor> hello
[19:42] <hvralpha> hello
[19:43] <leoquant> goede avond
[19:46] <amireldor> there's a meeting soon, right?
[19:47] <heno> amireldor: there is always a meeting soon in #ubuntu-meeting ;) (yes, the EMEA membership meeting)
[19:48] <amireldor> heno: good! so i'm finally in the right place and the right time
[19:50] <Arc> lol
[19:50] <Arc> UTC trip ya up?
[19:51] <amireldor> Arc it's 22:00 where i come from
[19:53] <Arc> 15:00 here
[19:53] <amireldor> Arc you live in the past
[19:54] <amireldor> i come from the future
[19:54] <Arc> apparently
[19:57] <emgent> uhm
[19:57] <emgent> !schedule rome
[19:57] <emgent> @schedule rome
[19:57] <emgent> it`snt scheduled..
[19:59] <amireldor> what not scheduled? i have been waiting for the EMEA meeting my entire life
[19:59] <emgent> waiting people..
[19:59] <Arc> I thought their meetings were a little more frequent than that
[20:01] <emgent> waiting stgraber and other Council people
[20:01] <stgraber> emgent: I'm unfortunately in the middle of a meeting, I'll do my best to follow the emea meeting though
[20:02] <emgent> stgraber: do you know who will take the chair in this meet ?
[20:03] <emgent> phanatic, Seveas ?
[20:03] <heno> popey, PriceChild: emea meeting ping
[20:04] <PriceChild> Allo
[20:04] <emgent> heya PriceChild :)
[20:04] <heno> hey PriceChild :)
[20:04] <PriceChild> Hmm, ubottu not change topics?
[20:04]  * PriceChild files a bug
[20:04] <stgraber> emgent: not me :)
[20:04] <phanatic> hey everyone
[20:04] <didrocks> PriceChild: ^^
[20:04] <emgent> ah ok hehe
[20:05] <emgent> PriceChild: meeting not scheduled
[20:05] <heno> it's on the Fridge
[20:05] <PriceChild> emgent: pardon?
[20:05] <emgent> uhm..
[20:05] <emgent> @schedule
[20:06] <PriceChild> emgent: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1648
[20:06] <didrocks> (and http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event)
[20:06] <PriceChild> Anyway..
[20:06] <amireldor> anyway...
[20:08] <ara_> hello all
[20:08] <PriceChild> So we have Me, phanatic, stgraber..
[20:08] <didrocks> hi ara_
[20:08] <PriceChild> Seveas doodle'd he could make it I believe.
[20:08] <stgraber> PriceChild: only half of me is attending the meeting, the other is attending a real-life meeting :)
[20:09] <amireldor> is hunmaat
[20:09] <amireldor> here?
[20:09] <hunmaat> amireldor: pong
[20:09] <amireldor> hello
[20:09] <hunmaat> hi
[20:09] <amireldor> you are the first candidate i recon
[20:09] <didrocks> stgraber: real life ? O_o ok, this things with interactive people, isn't it? :)
[20:10] <stgraber> didrocks: yeah
[20:10] <didrocks> stgraber: awesome ^^
[20:10] <amireldor> heno are you the host of the EMEA meeting?
[20:10] <heno> no :)
[20:10] <amireldor> oh, so who is?
[20:10] <heno> I'm just visiting :)
[20:10] <PriceChild> amireldor: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-membership-board-emea/+members
[20:11] <amireldor> thanks PriceChild, is anyone of the members around at all?
[20:11] <hunmaat> amireldor: see above...
[20:12] <PriceChild> amireldor: If you would check the list, you would see I, phanatic & half of stgraber are present.
[20:12] <emgent> :)
[20:12] <didrocks> so, 2 persons and half :)
[20:12] <Arc> is that quorum?
[20:12] <PriceChild> I would prefer we had half the team, ie 4 people present, definitely 3, not 2 and a half so I think we'll wait a little to see if Seveas appears?
[20:13] <phanatic> PriceChild: i agree
[20:13] <amireldor> oh hello PriceChild i just saw you are an EMEA member
[20:15] <amireldor> i hope i'm not rude but aren't we suppose to check up with hunmaat ?
[20:15] <PriceChild> amireldor: pardon?
[20:15] <amireldor> he is the first candidate for ubuntu membership, as i see on the EMEA wiki page
[20:15] <PriceChild> amireldor: 1221160376 0911T201256 < PriceChild> I would prefer we had half the team, ie 4 people present, definitely 3, not 2 and a half so I think we'll wait a little  to see if Seveas appears?
[20:15] <amireldor> oh so we are waiting for more people to come, i see
[20:16] <amireldor> i'm just a little tight on schedule and not sure i have a lot of time for this meeting now
[20:18] <PriceChild> Looking at Seveas' last seen time, and the doodle we did, I don't believe we'll be seeing him tonight so I think it best we reschedule I'm afraid.
[20:18] <Arc> alan pope isn't showing up?
[20:19] <PriceChild> Arc: he hasn't responded to a ping here.
[20:19] <Arc> yea he's been idle for 2+ hours
[20:20] <PriceChild> Sorry folks.
[20:20] <ara_> :(
[20:20] <Arc> any idea when the reschedule will be for?
[20:20] <Arc> it'd be nice for our LoCo to have at least one member come SFD
[20:22] <heno> Hm, we should consider doing membership application in an asynchronous medium
[20:22] <Arc> I was thinking that too
[20:22] <PriceChild> That's 20 minutes. We'll send a mail around and set a time for late next week hopefully, and get that announced on the wiki page & fridge by this weekend (i'll make sure to email the right list this time)
[20:22] <didrocks> if possible, it would be great :/
[20:23] <nizarus> we can wait that the second half of stgraber :)
[20:23] <leoquant> no Seveas today
[20:23] <stgraber> that'll still not make 4
[20:24] <nizarus> :(
[20:24] <leoquant> Seveas is on holiday
[20:24] <PriceChild> stgraber: phanatic that sound ok?
[20:24] <PriceChild> leoquant: Yep, I think he's been planning it for some time.
[20:24] <leoquant> indeed
[20:25] <Arc> is there a good chance at least 4 members will be able to attend a meeting next week instead?
[20:25] <phanatic> PriceChild: sure
[20:25] <PriceChild> Arc: We'll do our best. Sorry for the trouble today.
[20:25] <stefanlsd> Is there nobody from any other regional councils that could attend. Or doesnt it that work like that...
[20:25] <ara_> if it is the same time as today, I am afraid I won't be able to attend next week
[20:26] <Arc> the asian and american councils just had their meetings, it'll be a few weeks before they have another
[20:30] <nizarus> so PriceChild, meeting reported or not yet ?
[20:31] <didrocks> (and sure for next week?)
[20:31] <PriceChild> nizarus: pardon?
[20:35] <Arc> it seems like the membership councils were setup to answer growing workload, but without enough committed people to make it work
[20:36] <Arc> unless this is just an unusual circumstance
[20:39] <didrocks> PriceChild: I think that nizarus waited to confirm that the meeting is reported to another date and will not be held today
[20:39] <PriceChild> We won't hold it today, but will put the new ate on our page and the fridge
[20:39] <didrocks> s/waited/wanted
[20:39] <didrocks> ok, thanks PriceChild ;)
[20:40] <nizarus> thx PriceChild and didrocks
[20:40] <didrocks> so, see you soon everyone!
[20:43] <ara_> ok bye!
[22:26] <nizarus>  @schedule tunis
[22:26] <nizarus> @schedule tunis