[00:00] <jml> mwhudson: I had a little trouble with it yesterday.
[00:00] <mwhudson> jml: oh, ok
[00:00] <mwhudson> jml: i thought you were clone('null:') ing
[00:00] <mwhudson> or am i out of date
[00:01] <jml> mwhudson: that was my second pass at a solution
[00:02] <jml> mwhudson: after I couldn't find the repo format controls for create_branch, ISTR
[00:02] <spiv> jml: tried sprout('null:')? :)
[00:02] <mwhudson> spiv: blows up with looms and weaves
[00:02] <spiv> Oh, really?
[00:02] <jml> spiv: clone('null:') works great except for looms & weaves. haven't tried sprout
[00:02] <spiv> I'm not totally shocked by looms failing, weaves surprises me though.
[00:03] <mwhudson> spiv: it might be a null:/None thing
[00:03] <jml> spiv: weaves raises... RepositoryUpgradeRequired if you force no working trees...
[00:03] <jml> and NoSuchRevision if you pass 'null:' without caring about working trees.
[00:04] <spiv> Interesting.
[00:04] <jml> None works, but I didn't check that the new branch was empty
[00:04] <jml> (it might have just cloned the whole thing)
[00:05] <jml> when I found out that looms failed I gave up and moved on to fixing bugs.
[00:05] <jam> spiv: Is poolie not around?
[00:06] <jml> spiv: anyway, what were you going to suggest?
[00:06] <spiv> jam: not that I've seen
[00:06] <jam> jml: "b = bzrlib.branch.Branch.open('foo'), b.clone(NULL_REVISION)" ?
[00:07] <jml> jam: rather than bzrdir.clone?
[00:07] <jml> interesting.
[00:07] <jam> jml: well, it is something to try
[00:07] <jam> Looms is a bug in looms
[00:07] <jml> jam: yeah.
[00:07] <jam> and I don't care about weaves :)
[00:07] <jam> jml: you can also "bzr uncommit -r 1"
[00:07] <jam> And I *think* "bzr uncommit -r 0"
[00:08] <jam> but I'm not sure about '0'
[00:08] <jml> jam: I'm not sure if I'm allowed to not care about weaves yet.
[00:08] <jam> jml: alternatively
[00:08] <jam> bzrdir._format.initialize('target')
[00:08] <jam> bzrdir.repository_format.initialize(target_bzrdir)
[00:08] <jam> bzrdir.branch_format.initialize(target_bzrdir)
[00:08] <jam> Go back to the raw Format objects
[00:09] <jam> and tell them to create something new
[00:09] <jam> It may not work on pre-metadir, though.
[00:09] <mwhudson> with appropriate care for Remote*
[00:09] <jam> And I don't have much of an idea about looms
[00:09] <jam> spiv: ok, so no standup today? Was there one last night? I felt like I missed it, but didn't see any actual chatter
[00:10] <jml> jam, spiv: thanks. I'll have a play.
[00:10] <jml> maybe I'll end up patching loom or something.
[00:10] <poolie> hello jam, spiv, sorry i'm late
[00:11] <spiv> poolie: hello
[00:11] <spiv> jam: not so far, but now poolie is here it'd be good to do one...
[00:12] <spiv> poolie: standup?
[00:12] <poolie> sounds good
[00:12] <jam> jml: though you are right, I don't think Branch5/6 (regardless of looms/weaves) truly supported cloning at the NULL_REVISION
[00:13] <jml> *nod*
[00:13] <spiv> jam: So about landing my trivial -Dhpss fix on the 1.7 branch...
[00:13] <spiv> jam: what should I do with the NEWS entry?  Start a bzr 1.7rc2 section?
[00:13] <jam> spiv: I'm trying to land it now
[00:13] <jam> look at PQM
[00:14] <jam> PQM is backed up by a merge from vila
[00:14] <spiv> jam: ah.
[00:14] <jam> which says "success" but is still stuck
[00:15] <spiv> jam: ok, I'll wait for that to sort itself out then :)
[00:15] <spiv> jam: thanks
[00:33] <thumper> is there a bzrtools coming soon that won't be tried to be removed with bzr 1.7rc from the PPA?
[00:45] <abentley> thumper: I'll release bzrtools 1.7 tonight.
[00:46] <thumper> abentley: cool
[00:58] <Gioacchino> good night
[01:47] <jml> can someone land my http smartserver tweaks patch please?
[01:58] <spiv> jml: If someone unwedges pqm I will...
[02:00] <poolie> i don't see stubub yet
[02:00] <poolie> stub
[02:00] <poolie> i'll ask steve-in-canberra
[02:03] <jml> poolie: Steve-in-London, I think you'll find
[04:39] <Yasumoto> Hey guys, is there a way to get just the files when you're making a new branch, rather than all the files inside a folder?
[04:40] <RAOF> Yasumoto: I'm not entirely sure what you're asking for.  Are you saying that, rather than 'bzr branch foo bar' branching 'foo' into a 'bar' directory, you'd like to branch 'foo' into the current directory?
[04:44] <Yasumoto> RAOF: actually, I may be asking about bzr branch foo bar
[04:45] <Yasumoto> (a friend and I are learning how to use bzr for an assignment together)
[04:46] <Yasumoto> cool, thanks RAOF! :)
[04:49] <RAOF> Heh!  Remember, 'bzr help <command>' often contains useful information, and 'bzr help commands' will list all the commands :)
[04:51] <Yasumoto> ooh, cool
[04:51] <Yasumoto> thank you
[05:08]  * jml writes a function that does get_stacked_on_url that return None when there isn't one.
[05:42] <poolie> jml, yeah, i'm not sure if that was the best api
[05:42] <poolie> to raise an error
[05:42] <poolie> spiv, how's it going?
[05:43] <poolie> i'm still trying to get my desktop back up :-/
[05:43] <jml> poolie: well, the advantage of the current API is that I *can* write such a wrapper.
[05:43] <jml> poolie: if it returned None and I wanted rich errors raised, I'd be in trouble.
[05:43] <poolie> hm
[05:44] <poolie> if it returned None for more than one case, yes
[05:44] <spiv> poolie: pretty well.  I came across a vim window that reminded that I had a fix for a TooManyConcurrentRequests bug, so I finished that and fired it off.
[05:44] <jml> right. So I'm returning None if it's NotStacked as well as if one of the formats doesn't support stacking.
[05:45] <jml> because for most of what I'm doing the two are equivalent.
[05:45] <poolie> ok, good
[05:45]  * jml heads out
[05:45] <poolie> spiv, can you send your startup-time branch too (if you didn't already)
[05:46]  * spiv re-reads what he actually did in that branch to make sure there's nothing outrageous...
[05:51] <Yasumoto> hey guys, my friend's trying to push a branch onto launchpad (he just made an account!) but we're having issues with the windows client
[05:51] <poolie> hi Yasumoto
[05:51] <poolie> what specifically
[05:52] <Yasumoto> we found some bugs ( https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/198092 ) about bzr launch-pad login
[05:52] <Yasumoto> but it's saying Autentication type (password) not permitted.
[05:53] <Yasumoto> bzr: ERROR: Connection Error: Unable to authenticate to SSH host as user@bazaar.launchpad.net Bad authentication type (allowed_types=['publickey'])
[05:54] <Yasumoto> we're about to try it from cygwin..
[05:56] <spiv> Yasumoto: Launchpad's code hosting only allows publickey auth
[05:57] <spiv> Yasumoto: so you need to add an SSH public key to your Launchpad account
[05:57] <spiv> Yasumoto: https://launchpad.net/people/+me/+editsshkeys
[05:57] <Yasumoto> spiv: yeah, we've got the public key on launchpad
[05:58] <Yasumoto> hm, now in cygwin
[05:59] <Yasumoto> 1 sec
[06:01] <Yasumoto> hm, so I've got the private key in ~/.ssh/id_rsa and the public key in ~/.ssh/id_rsa.pub
[06:02] <Yasumoto> and it's giving us "bzr: ERROR: [Errno 0] Error"
[06:02] <spiv> Does "sft -v YOUR_LP_USER@bazaar.launchpad.net" show that it is using the key?
[06:03] <spiv> Er,
[06:03] <spiv> "sftp" rather than "sft"
[06:03] <spiv> Also, can you pastebin the traceback in your ~/.bzr.log file corresponding to the "Errno 0" error?
[06:04] <Yasumoto> spiv: good call on the sftp, it looks like it's giving us permissions errors
[06:04] <Yasumoto> it's ignoring the private key
[06:04] <Yasumoto> we'll change those, 1 sec
[06:07] <Yasumoto> hm
[06:07] <Yasumoto> it's connecting now
[06:08] <Yasumoto> however it's not accepting his passphrase
[06:11] <Yasumoto> spiv: thanks for your help, by the way :)
[06:12] <Yasumoto> he's playing around with things a bit for now, I'll let you know if we make progress
[06:27] <TheMuso> .c
[06:57] <vila> Good morning bazaar (with a special thought for pqm)
[07:14] <AfC> If you have a file added & committed to a branch, and later add a pattern to .bzrignore which happens to match it, it will still be governed as a versioned file, correct?
[07:21] <vila> AfC: yes
[07:21] <jml> hello everyone.
[07:21] <vila> hi jml
[07:22] <jml> I would like to suggest that autopack speed become the #1 most important bzr issue.
[07:22] <jml> kthxbye
[07:22] <jml> vila: hello. how's things?
[07:23] <vila> jml: very very good :) Except for the fact that pqm is so proud of my last submission that it don't want to let it go (which is embarassing :)
[07:23] <jml> ha!
[07:23] <vila> especially for jam and spiv who are trying to get *their* submissions accepted :)
[07:24] <vila> pqm: stop thinking, I don't want it to be merged in the 1.7 branch, go go go
[07:26] <poolie> hee hee
[07:26] <poolie> is it still stuck?
[08:21] <vila> poolie: pqm unstuck and my submission was even accepted. Did anybody diagnose the root cause ?
[08:24] <poolie> vila, stub killed a stuck ssh process
[08:24] <poolie> he didn't tell me what process it was specifically
[08:26] <vila> poolie: thks for feedback, I think pqm is just feeling anxious when it hears us talking about running the test suite on multiple platforms, someone should reassure it... I tried to be more gentle next time though
[08:27] <poolie> heh
[08:59] <spiv> Turns out it wasn't so hard to cut down the round trips of an empty push.
[09:02] <poolie> :-)
[09:02] <poolie> yay
[09:02] <poolie> guilhembi, hello
[09:04] <guilhembi> hello poolie
[09:06] <guilhembi> vila: Bonjour; do you have time for a short question regarding "'bzr missing' does not show merged revisions" ?
[09:06] <vila> guilhembi: sure
[09:07] <guilhembi> vila: Thanks. You said, "fix committed", but, so, what does "bzr missing" show now? output similar to "bzr log" indented revisions?
[09:07] <vila> yes
[09:08]  * guilhembi rushes to try that
[09:08] <vila> you can try with the associated branch
[09:08]  * guilhembi is evil, he tries with another branch
[09:09] <vila> guilhembi: feedback welcome about response times since this makes missing O(history) when --include-merges is used (but work will continue to remove that)
[09:11] <poolie> guilhembi, when he said 'with that branch' he meant the fix is in the branch connected to that bug
[09:12] <poolie> i think it's not in trunk yet
[09:12] <guilhembi> sigh
[09:13] <vila> poolie, guilhembi : poolie is right, tweaks were required, I'm working on it right now
[09:14] <vila> guilhembi: sry, I misunderstood you, I thought you meant that you will merge my fix in your private bzr
[09:14] <spiv> I think I just found a bug we really ought to fix before 1.7 :(
[09:15] <vila> so 'fix committed' means that the fix is available somewhere (often in the branch associated with the bug), while 'fix released' means that the patch has been merged to bzr.dev and the series indicates in which released version the fix is available
[09:16] <guilhembi> vila: but there is time between merge into bzr.dev and building of a release,
[09:16] <guilhembi> in this time window what is the status of the bug?
[09:17] <vila> 'fix released'
[09:17] <guilhembi> vila: isn't this misleading?
[09:17] <guilhembi> 'fix released' though not yet in a release?
[09:18] <poolie> yes
[09:18] <vila> yes, it is
[09:18] <poolie> the bug statuses are not quite labelled right
[09:18] <poolie> spiv, want to call me?
[09:20] <spiv> poolie: just about to finish mailing the list with details
[09:20] <poolie> ok
[09:20] <spiv> poolie: short answer: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/269214
[09:20] <poolie> thanks for finding it
[09:21] <vila> For me, 'fix released' means 'this bug is available beginning with the milestone indicated'. If that milestone points to a release "in the work" it means the fix is available in bzr.dev only or in a release candidate if one exists at that point
[09:21] <spiv> Well, John and someone on the list noticed it really, I just happened to put a couple of pieces together.
[09:22] <guilhembi> vila: I tested --include-merges on a pair of MySQL branches and it looks like working
[09:23] <spiv> poolie: mail sent.  I know how to reproduce, but haven't tried to find the cause yet.
[09:23] <vila> guilhembi: Good.
[09:58] <poolie> spiv, if you're still here, the failure in the 261315 test is (obviously really) there are tests for what rpcs are done by remote objects
[09:58] <poolie> and this adds a new one
[10:03] <spiv> poolie: I'm still here
[10:04] <poolie> i'm going to call it a night soon but can we talk it over first?
[10:04] <spiv> Sure.
[10:04] <spiv> (And me too)
[10:32] <lifeless> vila: the LOSA's can fix wedged pqm's
[10:33] <lifeless> vila: I'm not here :P
[10:33] <vila> lifeless: Sure I can see that :) What means LOSA though :)
[10:34] <vila> lifeless: enjoy your week-end !
[10:36] <lifeless> poolie: pqm still wedged?
[10:40] <spiv> lifeless: no
[10:40] <spiv> lifeless: so enjoy your weekend :)
[10:41] <spiv> lifeless: (stub killed a stuck ssh process)
[10:48]  * vila tries Launchpad Overlord System Administrators. Hmm, sounds good :)
[11:11] <dereine> is there something like codespaces for bazaar?
[11:11] <lifeless> what is a codespaces
[11:13] <james_w> dereine: you might want to look at launchpad.net
[11:14] <dereine> mh opensource...
[11:14] <dereine> i would like to publish it but...
[11:14] <dereine> but thanks for the typ
[12:19] <frk2> can somebody help me out with the lp protocol please?
[12:20] <frk2> mine seems to skip the http_proxy variable completely
[12:20] <frk2> is there an alternate way i can access my launchpad bazaar repo
[12:22] <james_w> frk2: "bzr launchpad-login <your lp id>" will make it use bzr+ssh://
[12:23] <frk2> im doing bzr push lp:~fkhan/+junk/test
[12:23] <frk2> seems like its throwing an exception on python xmlrpc lib
[12:24] <james_w> bug 186920 for the proxy issue I think
[12:24] <james_w> using launchpad-login should make it avoid this
[12:24] <frk2> is there a work around?
[12:25] <frk2> my dns works fine
[12:37] <frk2> i have worked around it by using bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net
[12:37] <frk2> that works
[12:37] <frk2> however it says no such user on launchpad
[12:37] <hsn_> http://pastebin.ca/1200966 you know why shelve doesnt work,  i need to create some directory?
[12:37] <frk2> my local username is not the same as my lp username
[12:41] <frk2> am i being retarded here?
[12:41] <james_w> frk2: run "bzr launchpad-login <your lp username>" and then continue using "lp:"
[12:41] <james_w> hsn_: you'll need to put it somewhere other than pastebin.ca if you would like me to look at it, I can't access that site
[12:42] <frk2> james_w, connection refused - same problem
[12:42] <james_w> frk2: "no such user"?
[12:42] <frk2> the exception happens in python xmlrpclib
[12:43] <frk2> no, the earlier problem with lp:
[12:43] <frk2> i am being a proxy
[12:43] <frk2> behind
[12:43] <james_w> but you've run "launchpad-login"?
[12:43] <frk2> yes
[12:43] <james_w> odd
[12:43] <james_w> does the end of the backtrace have "httplib.py"?
[12:43] <frk2> yes
[12:44] <frk2> i read somewhere that using lp makes bzr do a xmlrpc lookup
[12:44] <frk2> which is not proxiable
[12:44] <james_w> ah, true
[12:44] <james_w> use bzr+ssh://username@bazaar.launchpad.net then
[12:45] <frk2> :)
[12:45] <frk2> thats all i was looking for
[12:45] <frk2> thanks!
[12:46] <frk2> done. just trying out bazaar- looks way cooler than svn which is what im using now
[12:48] <hsn_> is there way to do bzr up --dry-run?
[12:53] <Peng_> james_w: You can't access pastebin.ca?
[12:56] <james_w> Peng_: nope
[12:58] <Peng_> james_w: Hmm. It has AAAA records. Maybe you have messed up IPv6 support?
[12:58] <james_w> maybe
[12:58] <james_w> I don't know how I would have "messed it up"
[12:59] <james_w> It resolves to an IP, and traceroute shows that packets get part way there, but just die after a few hops
[12:59] <Peng_> Oh. Never mind then.
[14:09] <vila> hmmm, pqm... what's the problem with merging lp: branches ?
[14:10]  * vila refuses to believe that pqm has anything against him :D
[14:11] <vila> Anybody knows someone with a 'stub' nick ?
[14:11] <vila> poolie said previously: vila, stub killed a stuck ssh process
[14:12] <james_w> stub doesn't seem to be around at the moment
[14:12] <vila> when it occured this morning (i.e. ~6 hours ago)
[14:13] <vila> james_w: if you find him somewhere, tell him that pqm is wedged againg and will be again since I already have another submission in the queue
[14:13] <james_w> he may well be done for the day
[14:13] <james_w> John or Aaron will probably know who else has the power.
[14:13] <vila> damn, do *you* someone that can acces pqm ?
[14:13] <vila> james_w: ok
[14:14] <vila> abentley, jam: pqm needs more love ^
[14:14] <abentley> vila: I don't have any particular power.
[14:15] <vila> abentley: I know, but may be you know someone who has ?
[14:16] <abentley> vila: The LOSAs have the power, but they don't have a detailed understanding of PQM.  What's the isue?
[14:17] <vila> A submission blocked pqm this morning and stub killed a stuck ssh process
[14:17] <vila> An other submission is now blocking it and I have a third one in the queue
[14:18] <abentley> vila: blocking how?
[14:18] <vila> Displaying: success: merge lp:~vila/bzr/bzr.integration/ http://bazaar-vcs.org/bzr/bzr.dev
[14:18] <vila> i.e. the merge seems to have occured but nothing happens
[14:19] <abentley> vila: Has the branch actually been updated?
[14:19] <vila> Not after the submission
[14:20] <vila> if you look at http://pqm.bazaar-vcs.org/ you'll see that I use two different branches, one for each submission
[14:20] <abentley> vila: Okay.  Are you on irc.canonical.com?
[14:20] <abentley> vila: No, I meant has bzr.dev been updated?
[14:20] <vila> abentley: no. I can't
[14:20] <vila> abentley: no, bzr.dev doesn't look updated
[14:21] <abentley> Okay.
[14:21] <vila> Checked. Not updated
[14:22] <vila> The only cause I can think of is that I use 'lp:' urls where others use 'http:' urls
[14:22] <vila> But I shoot in the dark...
[14:25] <abentley> vila, meet mthaddon.  He is working on unblocking PQM.
[14:25] <mthaddon> abentley, should be okay now
[14:25] <vila> abentley: thanks a ton
[14:26] <vila> mthaddon: hi
[14:26] <abentley> mthaddon: Thanks.
[14:26] <vila> mthaddon: hmm, you're fast, its working again :D
[14:26] <mthaddon> cool
[14:26] <vila> mthaddon: but I bet it will block again in about 1 hour
[14:27] <vila> the current submission should be ok, but the next one should trigger the same problem
[14:27] <abentley> vila: Don't be pessimistic.  Maybe it will block sooner :-)
[14:27] <vila> abentley: lol
[14:27] <abentley> Anyhow, it's worth confirming the behavior.
[14:28] <vila> I hate it when I tickle a bug but have no idea where to look to isolate it...
[14:29] <vila> mthaddon: what did you do to unblock it ?
[14:29] <abentley> vila: It looks like killing the process prevented your last submission from merging, as we feared.
[14:29] <mthaddon> vila, killed the process
[14:29] <vila> strange, this morning killing it make it complete successfully
[14:30] <abentley> mthaddon: What version of bzr is running on that box?
[14:30] <mthaddon> abentley, we're using bzr 1.6 for that PQM instance
[14:31] <vila> 1.6 or 1.6.1 ?
[14:31] <abentley> mthaddon: There were some performance regressions with 1.6.0.
[14:31] <abentley> So this may be related.
[14:32] <mthaddon> ah, interesting
[14:33] <vila> abentley: and I were lucky this morning because we wait longer before killing it ?
[14:33] <abentley> vila: yes, seems plausible.
[14:34] <abentley> mthaddon: Is it possible to update that box to 1.6.1?
[14:36] <mthaddon> abentley, lifeless has typically been responsible for that, and last time I did it I broke things, so I'd rather have him to that (as much to approve it as anything else)
[14:36] <mthaddon> s/him to that/him do that/
[14:38] <abentley> mthaddon: Well, it probably blocks merging 'till Sunday, but I guess we can live with it.
[14:39] <mthaddon> bzr 1.6 has been on there for a while, I believe... any idea why it's suddenly become a blocker?
[14:41] <vila> mthaddon: If I knew I'll be working around it instead of annoying you :-/
[14:42] <vila> My last submissions have blocked pqm, I have no idea why
[14:43] <vila> My last submission *before* that problem was  around 2008-09-01
[14:43] <vila> Except upgrading bzr.dev, I fail to see what I changed
[14:47] <grutte_pier> vila: remember the discussion about the webdav stuff (when I had nick Jakob, which apparently was registered).....
[14:47] <grutte_pier> well.... webdav is on, but only for one directory where systemadmin has some svn repos
[14:47] <vila> astro.rug.nl ?
[14:47] <grutte_pier> :(
[14:47] <grutte_pier> yep
[14:47] <vila> that explains it I think
[14:47] <grutte_pier> so I have to think of something else :P
[14:48] <vila> try the smart server instead, the performances ought to be better now and far better tomorrow :)
[14:52] <grutte_pier> but the whole thing is that I want others to access the repo, with the smart server they need access to the system right?
[14:53] <grutte_pier> the sysadmin will never setup accounts for people not physically working at the institute, I'm sure
[16:21] <hsn_> so its simple do: date(256) + XYZ year
[16:22] <hsn_> ECHANN
[16:30] <vila> grutte_pier: sry, my window was iconified :-/
[16:31] <vila> It you setup a smart server, you can then use .htaccess to define your own users/pass (if your server allows that)
[16:31] <fta> is there a way to cherry pick dis-joined revisions while merging ?
[16:31] <fta> something like -r 274..275,283..285 ?
[16:33] <vila> mthaddon: the pending submission passed, did you something ?
[16:33] <mthaddon> nope
[16:33] <vila> wow, now that's weird, the one you killed have indeed been merged to bzr.dev
[16:33] <vila> mthaddon: ok, thanks for confirming and the help, I'll see with jam and lifeless
[16:33] <mthaddon> cool
[16:34] <vila> and will refrain from submitting until then :-D
[16:58] <james_w> vila: sorry, I obviously don't know my http error codes :-)
[17:10] <vila> james_w: hehe, don't worry. as mentioned, I had to check too :)
[18:02] <fm> hi i cannot get bzr 1.6.1 or 1.7rc1 to work with python 2.6b3. see https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=425644 any idea?
[18:03] <fm> that is 1.5 the later fail with "TypeError: object.__init__() takes no parameters"
[18:26] <james_w> hey fm
[18:26] <james_w> fm: please run "python -c 'from gzip import U32'"
[18:26] <james_w> fm: or python2.6 as necessary
[18:30] <fm> james_w: ImportError: cannot import name U32
[18:34] <fm> james_w: there are the following python packages on opensuse factory: http://pastebin.com/mc80b808
[18:38] <fm> james_w: both my problems seem to be on windows too http://www.python.org/dev/buildbot/community/all/x86 Windows 2003 trunk/builds/66/step-bzr dev/0
[18:48] <james_w> fm: it looks to me like there is something wrong with python 1.6
[18:51] <fm> james_w: how can I debug this?
[18:51] <james_w> fm: well, the failure you reported showed that it can be reproduced with just python
[18:52] <james_w> so I would find out what changed in python to make that go away, as it probably shouldn't have
[18:52] <fm> the ""TypeError: object.__init__() takes no parameters" seems to be caused by http://bugs.python.org/file2323/new_init_strict.patch
[18:57] <pcc1> how do I merge a merge-directive into a repository without a working tree?  currently getting the error message 'bzr: ERROR: No WorkingTree exists for "file:///..."'
[18:58] <james_w> pcc1: you can't, you need a tree to merge it with
[19:25] <_fm_> james_w: u32 was removed http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk/Lib/gzip.py?rev=61821&r1=61813&r2=61821
[19:26] <james_w> _fm_: that sucks, and may not be intentional
[19:27] <james_w> _fm_: you should find out if it is and request it to be restored if not
[19:28] <_fm_> i am just asking in #python
[19:32] <beuno> Verterok, ping
[19:33] <Verterok> beuno: pong
[19:50]  * mvo wonders what he can do about " TooManyConcurrentRequests: The medium '<bzrlib.smart.medium.SmartSSHClientMedium object at 0x893616c>' has reached its concurrent request limit. Be sure to finish_writing and finish_reading on the currently open request."
[19:51] <james_w> hey mvo
[19:51] <mvo> hey james_w
[19:51] <james_w> that's normally a secondary error, indicating something else went wrong, and things went from bad to worse as it tried to unwind
[19:51] <james_w> what operation were you doing?
[19:51] <mvo> a commit
[19:52] <james_w> hmm
[19:52] <james_w> I'm not sure what that would be
[19:52]  * mvo tries again
[19:52] <james_w> are you using a lightweight checkout?
[19:52] <mvo> I don't think so
[19:53] <james_w> you could try "bzr unbind; bzr commit; bzr push; bzr bind; then
[19:59] <AmanicA> fwiw, Andrew send in a patch today about: "
[19:59] <AmanicA> This small change fixes one of the remaining causes of TooManyConcurrentRequests
[19:59] <AmanicA> errors.  "bzr pull" and "bzr merge"
[19:59] <AmanicA> "
[19:59] <AmanicA> so maybe this might be fixed in bzr.dev already, or this patch of andrew might help...
[20:00] <AmanicA> For details, see: http://bundlebuggy.aaronbentley.com/project/bzr/request/%3C20080912022408.GA9671%40steerpike.home.puzzling.org%3E
[20:10] <james_w> AmanicA: thanks, but I don't think that code path is involved here
[20:10] <AmanicA> cool, it was just a stab in the dark..
[20:11] <james_w> yeah, I was hoping it was that one :-)
[20:41] <ryanakca> Is there a bzr command to view what would be pulled before pulling it?
[20:41] <Peng_> ryanakca: "bzr missing"
[20:42] <Peng_> (Well, it'll also show anything that would be pushed if you pushed, but there are arguments to change that.)
[20:42] <ryanakca> Peng_: ok, thanks
[21:27] <ryanakca> Peng_: hmm... could you make it show ``bzr diff'' for those files?
[21:28] <Odd_Bloke> ryanakca: Look at revspecs, there'll be 'branch' or 'ancestor' or something which'll work.
[21:28] <Odd_Bloke> bzr diff -r branch:<REMOTE> or something.
[21:28] <ryanakca> nevermind, I tihnk I found it, bzr diff --new=ARG where ARG is the new branch
[22:03] <_amanica_> does anybody know why serverside hooks work with bzr:// but not bzr+http://
[22:03] <Kilroo> So does the Bazaar community pretty much have everything -except- a forum?
[22:04] <uws> a forum is for degenerate beings
[22:04] <uws> sorry, did i actually say that? ;)
[22:04] <_amanica_> whell theres answers..
[22:04] <_amanica_> https://answers.launchpad.net/bzr
[22:05] <Kilroo> Pft. I happen to like fora, er, Mathilda.
[22:05] <uws> Kilroo: who's Mathilda/ :)
[22:06] <Kilroo> Sorry, I was reading the quotes page. :D
[22:06] <Kilroo> Hm...thanks, _amanica_. That looks somewhat promising.
[22:07] <Kilroo> For some reason it still feels more like I'm intruding on people than I usually feel on a forum...
[22:07] <Peng_> That's true..bzr doesn't have a forum. Huh.
[22:07] <Peng_> I never noticed.
[22:08] <Kilroo> I don't think I'm actually going to try to post a question until I've actually tried something, though.
[22:09] <Kilroo> Considering that what I'm thinking of trying to do is stupid anyhow.
[22:23] <fullermd> Forum?  Oh, you mean those things like a mailing list with a horrible UI?   :p
[22:23] <lifeless> fora, those things that will kill you in australia
[22:41] <Kilroo> See, to my way of thinking, a mailing list is sort of like a forum with a horrible UI.
[22:42] <Kilroo> Similar to those forums where you have the sort of tree view of the replies.
[22:42] <Peng_> Forums don't let you mark things as read and unread.
[22:43] <Kilroo> Not at the post level, no. You have a point.
[22:43] <Kilroo> Either you've seen that thread since anyone posted to it, or you haven't.
[22:44] <Peng_> Or your session has expired, so it assumes you've seen the thread.
[22:44] <Peng_> (Vanilla averts that, but it's not all that great otherwise.)
[22:44] <Kilroo> I can't think of a forum that does that.
[22:45] <Peng_> phpBB, but maybe it's improved more recently.
[22:45] <Peng_> Or, what do you mean?
[22:45] <Kilroo> Far as I know, on phpBB, if you're not logged in it assumes you haven't read anything except maybe what's in session. If you are logged in it doesn't have to guess.
[22:47] <Peng_> Hmm... It seems Loggerhead's pages lack a DOCTYPE or charset declaration.
[22:48] <Kilroo> Maybe I should give mailing lists a try. I'm sure there must be something out there that lets you read an entire thread of messages from a mailing list at once, in chronological order regardless of reply forking, and paginated. I'd be surprised if it can correct for screwy distributions of > characters in multi-quoted responses from people with different numbers of columns in their mail clients though.
[22:49] <Kilroo> It's all a matter of taste anyhow.
[22:49] <fullermd> Quite.  I'd hate to read in chronological order.
[22:50] <Kilroo> In some cases I like to have the option to toggle it, but I don't like being forced to have things show in tree order, and I absolutely despise having to read one post at a time.
[22:51] <fullermd> But no forum will ever have an interface as customizable as my mail client, and couldn't come within 2 orders of magnitude of the responsiveness.
[22:51] <Kilroo> True enough.
[22:51] <fullermd> Heck, I can dispose of a whole mailbox in the time it takes to load one forum thread.
[22:52] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: a problem with a forum for bzr would be that afaik not a lot of knowledgeable people would read it
[22:52] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: I for one wouldn't.
[22:52] <fullermd> KKKKK<center><space>jjjiKKKl<enter>  *done*
[22:52] <Kilroo> It does begin to sound that way.
[22:52] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: now, you could try gmane
[22:53] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: that may come closer to your tastes?
[22:53] <Kilroo> Not particularly.
[22:54] <Kilroo> That is, it's better than many things I've seen.
[22:54] <Kilroo> However, if gmane suited me, I'd be happy using a mail client.
[22:54] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: I acknowledge there are users (in general, not sure for bzr) who would benefit from a forum
[22:55] <LarstiQ> but we'd need to have some people to put effort in it to set it up
[22:56] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: if you're willing to learn about bzr and act as a bridge between the fora and the rest, you're welcome to set one up ;)
[22:57] <Kilroo> And then it would only really be any help for people like me who would like a forum and don't like a mailing list, and even then only as much help as the people who would like a forum enough to post to it...and then the experts either have to spend time on both, or have to choose which one to follow.
[22:57] <LarstiQ> exactly
[22:57] <LarstiQ> so I feel starting up a forum none of us will use would be a disservice to users wanting to use it
[22:58] <Kilroo> Long story short, a forum would probably be more trouble to the community than it's worth, and there just isn't a medium for asking the kinds of questions I have where I don't feel like I'm intruding on people's time.
[22:58]  * LarstiQ nods at Kilroo 
[22:58] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: except, you're free to ask those questions
[22:58] <Kilroo> I was about to say...why I feel less like I'm intruding by posting a forum thread than by starting a thread on a mailing list or posting a question to the answers thing, I do not know.
[22:58] <fullermd> In high theory, there's no reason a forum and a mailing list can't 2-way gateway each other.  There are a number of impedance mismatches, though, on levels 6-8.
[22:59] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: how about asking on irc?
[22:59] <Kilroo> I also have never figured out why I feel less like I'm intruding by having an off-topic conversation on IRC than by asking stupid questions.
[22:59] <Kilroo> I think it's #ubuntu's fault.
[22:59] <LarstiQ> :)
[23:00]  * fullermd riffles through the definion of IRC for any mention of "topic"...
[23:00] <Peng_> Posting on a mailing list feels more intrusive to me than a forum. I think.
[23:00]  * LarstiQ nods
[23:00] <Peng_> I don't start many threads on forums.
[23:00] <LarstiQ> but that's the great thing about mailing lists :)
[23:00] <Peng_> So I'm not really sure.
[23:00] <LarstiQ> Peng_: how would you compare the thresholds of irc and fora?
[23:01] <Kilroo> I guess I think of a mailing list as being sort of like a forum where everyone who's registered is subscribed to the entire thing.
[23:01] <Kilroo> And now I'm trying to remember which forum software it is where you could do that. Invision Power Board I think. Not sure of any others that support that.
[23:01] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: that is a difference. NNTP has a more granular subscription model.
[23:02] <Peng_> LarstiQ: I don't know. I usually lurk in IRC channels for 3 months before asking anything. Or I join, ask a question, everybody ignores me, and I leave. :)
[23:02] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: btw, do you actually have a question yet?
[23:02] <Kilroo> Oh yeah, the question.
[23:02] <Peng_> Kilroo: What do you mean by "subscription"? Most forums have email alerts and stuff. IPB's may be better though.
[23:03] <Peng_> Kilroo: Sorry, you've used up all your time today. Come back and ask tomorrow. ;)
[23:03] <LarstiQ> Peng_: with a mailing list, you can't selectively watch a particular thread, you get everything
[23:03] <Peng_> LarstiQ: Oh, that's ture.
[23:03] <Peng_> true*
[23:03] <LarstiQ> lukcily, my email client deals with that just fine, and I usually want to see everything.
[23:04] <Peng_> Which client?
[23:04] <LarstiQ> mutt
[23:04] <Kilroo> Actually I'm probably going to come back next week. See, I have a (very vague) idea of what I want to do, but I haven't tried anything yet to see if it'll work, and I don't like asking "hey, can I do this?" without "Here's what I tried so far..."
[23:05] <fullermd> Well, you already asked _half_ the question...
[23:05] <Peng_> Kilroo: Well now I'm curious.
[23:05] <Peng_> LarstiQ: O
[23:05] <Peng_> h
[23:05] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: I'll take your reluctance for that as credit and won't be bothered by you not having tried anything yet :)
[23:05]  * Peng_ can't type right now.
[23:06] <Kilroo> as an aside...Peng_: If I'm  remembering right, with IPB you can subscribe to the thread, the subforum, or the entire board. With most other packages I don't think I've ever seen a way to subscribe to anything but the thread.
[23:08] <Kilroo> Ok, you've convinced me. The basic gist is this: I'm working with a team that currently has no source control at all...nor even a real development server. I'm trying to figure out whether there's a way of using bzr with the production server as a dumb server that doesn't require something ridiculously complicated, but yields more benefit than just having everyone keep history on their local working copies.
[23:09] <Kilroo> And I'm having trouble even grasping what I mean by that because the only thing I've ever used before was an old version of Sourcesafe.
[23:09] <LarstiQ> bzr doesn't require any extra software on machines you publish your changes on, just file (sftp/ftp/etc) access will do
[23:10] <Kilroo> It would be relatively simple if not for the fact that I cannot guarantee adoption of bzr across the board
[23:10] <Kilroo> which means that for example people in other departments might be making changes and pushing them directly via FTP.
[23:10] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: would adoption be hindered by wanting another solution, or just general aversion to version control?
[23:13] <Kilroo> larstiq: There are three obstacles. One, I'm not even sure how to get the word out to everyone who currently has FTP access. Two, I suspect the powers that be would want to sit on it for a while before making it a standard, even if everyone who would need to switch understood what was happening. Three, we're actually supposed to be moving to Subversion...but for some odd reason doing this is taking months. Lots of them.
[23:13] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: I see.
[23:14]  * fullermd suggests electroshock.
[23:14] <LarstiQ> fullermd: tsk :)
[23:14] <fullermd> What?  Hot pokers aren't called for until week 2...
[23:14] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: so multiple people are collaborating on the same source now without any version control, across departements?
[23:14] <Kilroo> Yyyyep.
[23:14] <LarstiQ> nice.
[23:15] <Kilroo> Well, I take that back.
[23:15] <fullermd> See?  Electroshock would be more merciful   :p
[23:15] <Kilroo> Some of them are using lock files with Dreamweaver.
[23:15] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: aah, web work?
[23:15] <Kilroo> But not all of them are, I don't think anyone hesitates to override the lock, and those of us who use Eclipse instead tend not to notice the lock files at all.
[23:16] <Kilroo> larstiq, yep...mostly php.
[23:16] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: you don't need to get everyone onboard at the same time
[23:17] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: granted, things will be harder untill you do
[23:17]  * fullermd uses bzr to manage piles of PHP code, and occasionally has to deal with Dreamweaver droppings.
[23:18] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: do you work directly on the server, or is there a syncing step to your workstation before you make a change, make a change, and then upload it again?
[23:19] <Kilroo> Larstiq: Some people work directly on the server. On occasion, I actually have, myself, for quick fixes. Usually, though, what I do is download the remote files if I think there have been any changes to them, make changes to my local files, and then upload.
[23:20] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: right, so if someone doesn't sync, there is the possibility for overriding others work?
[23:20] <Kilroo> Larstiq: Yes.
[23:20] <LarstiQ> I see.
[23:22] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: what you could do, is start locally using it. 'bzr init; bzr add; bzr ci' your local copy, and then use bzr as you would normally. When you sync from remote, make sure you have no uncommitted changes, sync, and do a commit (possibly add first for new files) as bzr ci -m 'changes made by others'
[23:22] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: now, that will only give you versioning locally, and ideally you'd like to collaborate with others
[23:23] <Kilroo> Hmm
[23:23] <LarstiQ> but it at least gives you some of the benefits
[23:23] <Kilroo> Yeah
[23:23] <LarstiQ> and no one else has to know that you're using bzr
[23:24] <LarstiQ> from there on, you could expand it to whomever is interested
[23:24] <Kilroo> that's pretty much what I had in mind, actually, except I was having trouble wrapping my head around the entire process.
[23:24] <fullermd> I think an important step in the process is to never, ever let the idea works its way into your head that a VCS is a deployment mechanism...
[23:24] <LarstiQ> fullermd: right, but we have `bzr upload` for that
[23:25] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: which is a plugin btw, you can find it on http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrPlugins
[23:25] <Kilroo> I've seen it. It confused me a little.
[23:25] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: I need to go to bed now, we can talk about how to use bzr with others another time, or someone else can help you.
[23:25] <fullermd> I stick with my belief that it's a bad idea in general, and imposes uncomfortable constraints on you even when it technically works perfectly.
[23:26] <Kilroo> Thanks for your help, LarstiQ
[23:26] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: how did it confuse you?
[23:26] <LarstiQ> fullermd: you think `bzr upload` is a bad idea?
[23:27] <Kilroo> Basically, I'm not sure I understand how bzr-upload differs from making a lightweight checkout and putting it on the production server.
[23:27] <LarstiQ> fullermd: it only works if deployment means having a copy of your tree somewhere
[23:27] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: the difference is in where the updating happens
[23:27] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: with the lightweight checkout, you would need to update it on the server everytime you want it to, well, be up to date.
[23:28] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: and then you'd need to have bzr on the server
[23:28] <fullermd> A capability is rarely a bad idea.  Only the use of it   :)
[23:28] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: with bzr-upload, you're just uploading the files that are in your working tree, no bzr required on the server, no cron, no nothing
[23:29] <LarstiQ> fullermd: don't evade my question :P
[23:29] <Kilroo> Well, actually what I meant was making a lightweight checkout and then uploading the result. But I see what you mean.
[23:29] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: convenience.
[23:30] <fullermd> I don't think I was evading it.  The biggest drawback of having the tool available is that people are more likely to use it, and I think that mechanism is a tool whose value increases the less it's used.
[23:31] <Kilroo> Anyhow, thanks again for all your help. I need to go eat now. I think I have a good notion of what to do now, though.
[23:31] <LarstiQ> I see, fair enough.
[23:31] <fullermd> It ties the deployment process into the committing process, and the versioned tree shape to the deployed tree shape, and I think both of those are bad things.
[23:31] <LarstiQ> fullermd: aah, good arguments.
[23:31]  * Peng_ uses a VCS as a deployment tool. Cough.
[23:31] <Kilroo> That makes sense to me, fullermd
[23:32] <fullermd> And I'm crankier with it than it deserves, because I can't understand how so many people immediately jump to the assumption that it's a good idea.
[23:32] <Kilroo> but then, so does being able to deploy FROM version control.
[23:32] <fullermd> I mean, I used a VCS for over a year before the thought first occured to me, and after a half hour of setting it up once, I figured out it was a bazooka pointed at my foot   :p
[23:32] <LarstiQ> fullermd: it's lightweight.
[23:33] <Peng_> Yeah, that's why I do it. I don't have any complex needs, and it means I don't have to learn any new tools.
[23:33] <Peng_> I only have one server anyway. (Well, two, but they don't share anything.)
[23:33] <LarstiQ> fullermd: and I've been using it the last couple of days to deploy an oracle install script, for that it worked nicely.
[23:34] <Kilroo> My ideal notion is to have VCS, and everyone works with VCS, and then pushing to production consists of taking the current production branch in VCS and putting it on the production server. Hopefully by means of some scripted process.
[23:34] <fullermd> My deployment process is generally a stack of Makefiles.  And my deployed tree shapes _never_ mirror the tree in VCS.
[23:34] <fullermd> At the least, the deployed tree is a subset of what's in the VCS (e.g., things like database manglement scripts, don't go in a live environment).  And there's usually more differences.
[23:34]  * LarstiQ nods at fullermd 
[23:35] <Kilroo> I'm not sure you can really do that so much in web development.
[23:35] <LarstiQ> fullermd: you use a heavier deployment process, bzr-upload doesn't add anything there.
[23:35] <Kilroo> Actually I take that back.
[23:35]  * fullermd does web development   :p
[23:35] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: zc.buildout!
[23:35] <Kilroo> Because I immediately thought of four ways that I could.
[23:36] <fullermd> ('course, I don't do it, by royal decree, when I don't have real access to the server.  I changed double and a half time any time I have to touch FTP)
[23:36] <LarstiQ> Kilroo: an aside, do you use sftp or ftp?
[23:37] <LarstiQ> bzr is much happier with sftp
[23:37] <fullermd> I guess it boils down to I don't think bzr-upload is evil or bad or broken, I just think it [the general workflow, not the specific tool] is used too often by reflex or whim, rather than really thinking through how the workflow should best be.
[23:37] <LarstiQ> fullermd: right, I can agree to that.
[23:37] <fullermd> Of course, that doesn't put it in rareified company   :p
[23:38] <Kilroo> Let me rephrase: I don't think it would be possibly for the company where I work to have the deployed tree be a different shape from the development tree without massive changes to the way most things are done.
[23:39] <Kilroo> Granted, some of those changes would probably be beneficial. I personally don't like having any php file that isn't supposed to be accessed directly by the web live in a folder underneath the document root.
[23:39] <Kilroo> Larstiq: ftp, unfortunately.
[23:40] <Kilroo> I'm not sure what that business with the document root has to do with what I was talking about in the previous sentence, either.
[23:40] <Kilroo> I think I'm too hungry to think.
[23:40] <Kilroo> I'm going to go eat dinner. Thank you again for all your help.
[23:40] <fullermd> Food is not the answer.
[23:40] <fullermd> Food is the question.  "Yes" is the answer.
[23:40] <Kilroo> Amen to that.
[23:42] <LarstiQ> and I'll detach, ciao
[23:43] <fullermd> Mwahaha.  And I'll stage a coup while you're all distracted.