[02:51] <CimiDS> kwwii, better tab highlighting in revision 60
[03:05] <CimiDS> _MMA_, too
[04:14] <DanaG> Oh yeah, another random reference to look at for the newwave:
[04:14] <DanaG> http://stardockdesign.wincustomize.com/skins.aspx?skinid=6287&libid=1
[04:14] <DanaG> Solarion theme.
[04:16]  * DanaG forgot whose theme that New Wave is
[08:39] <CimiDS> kwwii, ping
[08:58] <DanaG> Oh yeah, try the Nodoka engine some time in OpenOffice, and take a look at how the scrollbars there look -- it's essentially a squared version of the round thing.  Any chance you could replicate that, at least?
[08:58] <DanaG> If you got that and the focus thing (as well as the progress bar, which doesn't quite match), it'd be perfect.
[08:59] <DanaG> Rounded scrollbars are a small thing to sacrifice in exchange for cool things like RGBA.
[09:28] <CimiDS> progress bar? what's wrong?
[10:46] <kwwii> CimiDS: pong
[11:16] <CimiDS> upgrade to r61
[11:32] <DanaG> Oh yeah, progress bar... perhaps I'm misremembering.
[11:32] <DanaG> Oh yeah, I think it did look the same.
[11:32] <DanaG> Never mind.
[18:30] <Cimi> ATTENTION: since murrine r64 "style" option was renames to "profile"
[18:32] <_MMA_> Cimi: Thats going to break *alot* of themes. Unless you've added some kinds legacy support.
[18:32] <_MMA_> *kinda
[18:33] <Cimi> you are using svn, svn can break API
[18:33] <Starks> canonical is being too secretive about their in-house theme team
[18:33] <Cimi> there's legacy support for stable API
[18:34] <_MMA_> Cimi: Regardless of what *Im* using, once released, its going to break alot of themes.
[18:34] <_MMA_> Ok. Good.
[18:34] <Cimi> no :)
[18:34] <andreasn> Starks: I didn't know there was one
[18:34] <Starks> intrepid's theme will be in-house
[18:34] <Cimi> style is an optionintroduced in the svn
[18:35] <Cimi> so i shouldn't worry about breaking themes
[18:35] <Cimi> isn't it? :)
[18:35] <_MMA_> Cimi: Ok. Im mistaken then. I was thinking about something else.
[18:36] <_MMA_> andreasn: Don't feed the trolls that come into a room, spout crap about things they don't have the facts.
[18:37] <Starks> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=916316
[18:37] <andreasn> _MMA_: oh, sorry. I just never heard of a inhouse team
[18:38] <andreasn> oh, that sounds like a hen out of a feather (or whatever it's called)
[18:39] <_MMA_> andreasn: There is a new art director. Is supposed to plan for the future. Coordinated branding/look&feel across Ubuntu.
[18:39] <andreasn> _MMA_: cool
[18:40] <andreasn> hope things turn out good then
[18:41] <_MMA_> andreasn: What's your idea of "good"? :)
[18:42] <andreasn> nothing special really, but better than now I would hope
[18:42] <_MMA_> What's your idea of "better"? :)
[18:43] <_MMA_> Really. It's all crap opinion. :)
[18:43]  * _MMA_ thinks "good" is everything on my desktop is some shade of chocolate. :P
[18:43] <andreasn> I would be very surprised if we're now at the point of the ultimate look & feel of the free desktop
[18:43] <_MMA_> Which you think would be? :)
[18:44] <andreasn> that I do not now?
[18:45] <_MMA_> ?
[18:45] <_MMA_> You mean: "That, I do not know." ?
[18:45] <andreasn> ah, yes
[18:45] <_MMA_> np
[18:46] <andreasn> I started taking a English class last night, we learned periods and commas, but apparently I wasn't paying enough attention :)
[18:46] <_MMA_> :)
[18:46] <_MMA_> Your English is better than Cimi's. :P
[18:47] <andreasn> but it's really interesting, because English use commas a _lot_ more than Swedish
[18:47] <_MMA_> I'm also sorry. I'm just trying to cut through all the generic opinion as of late. I read so much opinion that lacks substance. It's always, "I don't know what I like. I just know I don't like that.". That has been the issue with Mark around here for instance.
[18:47] <andreasn> the Swedish grammar rule is something like "use a comma when you need to breathe"
[18:48] <_MMA_> So now, I hope to move away from being held to his whim.
[18:48] <_MMA_> Unless artists *want* to.
[18:48] <_MMA_> andreasn: Yeah. English is only /kinda/ like that.
[18:49]  * thorwil is unsure about about commas in english
[18:49] <andreasn> oh, well, I certainly have some ideas of where I would personally like to improve GNOME in terms of less noise, less cuteness, proper use of layout, consistency etc
[18:49] <andreasn> but don
[18:49] <andreasn> but I don't tend to do stuff at the Ubuntu level, but at the GNOME level
[18:49] <andreasn> I just hang out in here :)
[18:50] <andreasn> but yeah, I can understand your frustration
[18:52] <_MMA_> andreasn: Sure. I know why you're in here. I wouldn't give shit about Ubuntu. :) I do plan to shake things up around our little corner of the interweb.
[18:52] <thorwil> _MMA_: "So now, I hope to move away from being held to his whim." - fits nicely to the text i'm drafting where i explain that mark cannot be the target audience / is not likely to represent a worthwhile target audience
[18:54] <_MMA_> thorwil: Thing is. I'm not sure *we* have to define one. My thought atm, is to let people create things that feel ubuntu and put them in a package based on popularity and technical, um, capibility. The work well. No bugs.
[18:54] <_MMA_> Don't know how to say that right atm.
[18:56] <thorwil> _MMA_: we all always work with at least some assumptions about the audience. even if we just exclude children and grannies. can only help to have it written down
[18:56] <thorwil> _MMA_: but i'm far less adamant about that than troy :)
[18:57] <_MMA_> :)
[18:57] <_MMA_> Here's the thing though.
[18:58] <_MMA_> If we're not aiming for default, Why should we be restricted to audience?
[18:58] <thorwil> to have guidance and internal consistence
[18:58] <thorwil> to choose the right words for our message
[18:59] <thorwil> to me, there is not much place for a difference between aiming for default and aiming to be damn good ;)
[18:59] <_MMA_> Why do we need a message? :) *Some* guidance can be restrictive and what "internal consistence"?
[19:00] <_MMA_> To me, let the artist decide their audience.
[19:00] <_MMA_> This is all very open still.
[19:00] <thorwil> _MMA_: if you go all artsy doing-what-feels-right, you're right back on the i-like-this or i like that level
[19:01] <_MMA_> And that can be fine. If someone creates a good theme, that feels Ubuntu as far as color cues, why can't it be used?
[19:01] <_MMA_> Hell. Someone's vision of Ubuntu could be green. Should we exclude it?
[19:02] <thorwil> it could and no
[19:02] <_MMA_> Questions I still haven't answered for myself.
[19:02] <_MMA_> It will need some debate.
[19:03] <thorwil> you can't be all free for everything _and_ get away from everyone being a lone art warrior
[19:04] <thorwil> but i'm no control freak. i want a stem of order and there can be chaos all around it
[19:04] <_MMA_> Sure. But I think we'll need to find a balance that feels right for us. So far, I'm just dealing with the technicals.
[19:05] <_MMA_> I'll get places for people to put their pink Ubuntu theme if the rest of our ML or whatever wants it in. :P
[19:05] <_MMA_> s/places/packages
[19:09] <_MMA_> Meeting in 1 hour. Either here or in #ubuntu-meeting.
[19:10] <_MMA_> kwwii: Where's the meeting?
[19:10] <thorwil> from Ken's mail: "A meeting is now scheduled for Friday at 19:00 UTC in #ubuntu-meeting."
[19:10] <_MMA_> ahh..
[19:11] <kwwii> it is probably not on the fridge because I am too lazy
[19:11] <_MMA_> :P
[19:14] <Starks> new wave bzr FTW
[19:14] <Starks> gtk, metacity, compiz, emerald, xfce, wallpaper, gdm, list, lock, and usplash
[19:15] <Cimi> you'll get tired of those themes with the dark osX menubar
[19:22] <_MMA_> chicken, motorboat, ice cream, paper mill, flu and santa
[19:22] <thorwil> all lies!
[19:23] <dilomo> well not agree
[19:24] <dilomo> only the usplah is not ready yet
[19:24] <_MMA_> WTF was there to agree or disagree on? :)
[19:24] <dilomo> (21,22,59) thorwil: all lies!
[19:25] <thorwil> dilomo: chicken, really?
[19:25] <dilomo> chicken?
[19:26] <_MMA_> hahahahahahah
[19:26] <_MMA_> I'm so lost. :)
[19:27] <thorwil> dilomo: look one line above mine
[19:27] <dilomo> oooh yaah
[19:27] <dilomo> it's all clear now
[19:27] <dilomo> :)
[19:27] <_MMA_> :P
[19:28] <thorwil> d:
[19:28] <_MMA_> Im a retarded for wanting to do this? http://gizmodo.com/5049073/homemade-human-catapult-provides-not+quite+safe-fun
[19:29] <thorwil> no, retarded is not the word
[19:30] <dilomo> woow
[19:30] <_MMA_> Yeah, "awesome" is the word. :)
[19:30] <dilomo> that looks cool
[19:31] <_MMA_> Alternative KDE main menu: http://lancelot.fomentgroup.org/screenshots
[19:34] <dilomo> nice
[19:39] <_MMA_> Meeting in 20 mins.
[19:42] <thorwil> #ubuntu-meeting is so scary, everyone can see us there 0.0
[19:43] <_MMA_> thorwil: Just imaging everyone in their underwear. :)
[19:43]  * thorwil freaks out
[19:43] <_MMA_> *imagine
[19:46]  * _MMA_ pulls up agenda email.
[19:48] <dilomo> but I cannot join
[19:48] <dilomo> there's nobody in the chat rooom
[19:48] <thorwil> you misspelled it
[19:48] <dilomo> what
[19:48] <dilomo> ooh
[19:48] <dilomo> room*
[19:49] <thorwil> dilomo: /j #ubuntu-meeting
[19:49] <dilomo>  /j #ubuntu-meeting
[19:49] <_MMA_> dilomo: Or, don't paste in the room name. Pidgin does some crazy things with pasting to stop spamming.
[19:49] <zniavre>  /j #ubuntu-meeting
[19:50] <_MMA_> Type: /join #ubuntu-meeting
[19:50] <thorwil> oh boy
[19:50] <thorwil> it's very important to not have anything in front of the /
[19:50] <_MMA_> :P
[19:51] <dilomo> ok
[19:51] <dilomo> I'm in
[19:51] <dilomo> thanks guys
[19:51] <dilomo> its fill max
[19:52] <thorwil> fill max?
[19:52] <dilomo> full*
[20:15] <Ken_V> Ello Ello
[20:16] <thorwil> Ken_V: -> ubuntu-meeting
[20:16] <Ken_V> KK
[20:51] <thorwil> Ken_V, dilomo: http://thorwil.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/ibex_horns_22_4to3.jpg
[20:51] <thorwil> it will not see much more refinement
[20:52] <dilomo> it's good and should be include IMHO
[20:52] <thorwil> well, i'm glad you like it :)
[20:53] <dilomo> :)
[21:05] <_MMA_> thorwil: Yeah. This should go in kwwii's package.
[21:46] <_MMA_> boo
[21:47] <dilomo> :)
[21:48] <_MMA_> Ill be around for another hour or so.
[21:49]  * _MMA_ turns on a movie.
[22:04] <bcurtiswx> hi all, i have a question if anyone is around
[22:07]  * bcurtiswx pokes room
[22:09] <bcurtiswx> wow... a ghost channel
[22:10] <_MMA_> !ask
[22:10] <bcurtiswx> haha.. ok
[22:11] <bcurtiswx> bug 269226 i have confirmed, but i know its not a firefox issue but a font issue
[22:11] <bcurtiswx> i need advice on what package I need to assign to this bug so it can be triaged
[22:11] <bcurtiswx> noone in the bugs channel knows
[22:12] <_MMA_> bcurtiswx: Hmm... #ubuntu-devel will be able to tell you.
[22:12] <bcurtiswx> ok
[22:12] <bcurtiswx> thanks, _MMA_
[22:12] <_MMA_> np. For a D.C. guy. ;)
[22:13] <bcurtiswx> where u from?
[22:13] <_MMA_> P.G County/D.C. originally. Now I'm In Raleigh.
[22:14] <bcurtiswx> Ah, i'm a Grad Student at George Mason
[22:14] <_MMA_> Cool
[22:14] <bcurtiswx> originally from Rochester, NY
[22:14]  * _MMA_ likes upstate. Misses snow.
[22:15] <bcurtiswx> Me too, went to SUNY Oswego, snowbelt .. every winter at least 1 4-5 foot snowstorm
[22:16] <_MMA_> Friends from upstate would laugh at a "blizzard in D.C" whenever the news said that.
[22:17] <bcurtiswx> yeah, i do
[22:17] <bcurtiswx> got like an inch.. people lost their driving skills.  was the worst time on the roads i've ever had
[22:17] <_MMA_> Oh well. I still miss D.C. and whatever snow it does get. The Mall looks great when it shows.
[22:17] <bcurtiswx> yeah, i plan on taking a metro trip there if it snows
[22:18] <bcurtiswx> i hear theres an ice rink at the sculpture garden?
[22:19] <_MMA_> http://www.flickr.com/photos/metalmusicaddict/2087574914/sizes/m/in/set-72157603377813769/
[22:19] <bcurtiswx> cute kid!
[22:19] <_MMA_> bcurtiswx: Hmm... Might be portable. SOmething they put up in windet.
[22:19] <_MMA_> gah
[22:19] <_MMA_> *winter
[22:20] <_MMA_> 2 years ago but yeah. He's cute. ;)
[22:22] <Cimi> kwwii, poke me when you'll submit something, I'm interested
[22:47] <kwwii> Cimi: not ready to submit anything yet
[22:48] <kwwii> but if you want to see the work in progress, it is at http://sinecera.de/progress.png
[22:52] <DanaG> Hmm, interesting... what's that?
[22:53] <kwwii> just an idea
[22:55] <DanaG> argh, line on Murrine tabs is thicker than I like... and the scrollbars are 'funky' (due to ill-fitting rounded outer corners).
[22:56] <DanaG> Though the focus thing is a bigger deal to me.
[22:59] <DanaG> Hackish as it is, I still like rounded, though.
[22:59] <DanaG> Is there no way to draw it non-hackishly?
[23:00] <DanaG> I don't know enough about GTK to do anything with it.
[23:01] <kwwii> I should just learn to write an engine myself
[23:01] <kwwii> and in a year or so I could write something myself and have it look like crap but only blame myself
[23:01] <DanaG> Murrine just doesn't "feel" the same.
[23:02] <DanaG> Oh yeah, I know why: the scrollbar shading is different, too.
[23:03] <DanaG> And progress bars are drastically different.
[23:06] <DanaG> Interesting... shading on disabled controls is also different.
[23:08] <DanaG> Aah, Compiz zoom is handy for comparing these things.
[23:11] <DanaG> Another handy thing: open one twf with one theme or gtk, and another with a different one.  Overlay the two, and fade one in and out.
[23:15] <DanaG> Murrine has much "harder" edges and gradients.
[23:15] <Cimi1> DanaG: decrease constrast
[23:16] <DanaG> Aah, should I just post my metatheme somewhere?
[23:16] <Cimi1> no
[23:17] <Cimi1> just add contrast = 0.7 or what you like
[23:17] <DanaG> The Nodoka one didn't have a defined contrast.
[23:17] <Cimi1> remember to use the latest snapshot
[23:17] <Cimi1> nodoka is ugly
[23:17] <Cimi1> gh
[23:18] <DanaG> I like it... it's soft even with bright colors.
[23:18] <Cimi1> nodoka is murrine with some static options
[23:18] <DanaG> Ugh, Contrast... doesn't do it.
[23:18] <Cimi1> if you're running latest svn
[23:18] <DanaG> It does weird things.
[23:19] <Cimi1> add
[23:19] <DanaG> I'll check if I'm using svn.
[23:19] <Cimi1> profile = NODOKA
[23:19] <DanaG> "profile" rather than "style"?
[23:19] <Cimi1> contrast = 0.8
[23:19] <Cimi1> yeah, I've changed it today
[23:19] <DanaG> Oh, I don't have the SVN anywhere... I mean, I need to make an initial 'get' (or whatever it's called).
[23:21] <Cimi1> svn co http://svn.gnome.org/svn/murrine/trunk murrine && cd murrine && sudo apt-get install build-essentials libgtk2.0-dev --yes && ./autogen.sh --prefix=/usr && sudo make install
[23:21] <Cimi1> it will work
[23:23] <Cimi1> kwwii: mockups!
[23:31] <DanaG> Are there also styling changes in the svn?
[23:31] <DanaG> I noticed that the borders on things such as combo boxes are much 'harder' on murrine.
[23:32] <DanaG> On Nodoka, they match the border around the button -- it uses that 'darkness' all the way around.  The Murrine one has the textbox part more darkly bordered.
[23:36] <DanaG> Aah, there are also differences in shading on disabled buttons.
[23:39] <DanaG> and same with slider controls.
[23:45] <DanaG> I wish Fedora had submitted patches, instead of forking
[23:45] <DanaG> .
[23:46] <DanaG> Grr... Fedora.
[23:46] <DanaG> ... speaking of which, here's a leopard wearing one:  http://www.skinit.com/skins/graphic_designs/bigcats
[23:46] <DanaG> =þ
[23:54] <Cimi1> DanaG: I don't like nodoka
[23:55] <Cimi1> also, as said, this is a matter of contrast
[23:55] <Cimi1> just decrease the contrast of the entry and you'll have exactly the same color