bdmurrayI'll leave some bugs for you then. ;)00:00
hggdh:-) thanks00:00
bdmurraybug 26353300:04
ubottuLaunchpad bug 263533 in ubuntu "Intrepid: MacBook Pro screen is missing in choose screen system menu" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26353300:04
bdmurrayanybody have a guess at what menu they are talking about?00:04
hggdhperhaps hardware choice?00:13
bdmurrayit's a mystery to me - could be screen resolution too00:14
mrooneySorry if slightly off-topic, but does anyone know details of UDS Sponsorship such as who reviews applications (is it a team?), and a general magnitude for how many people are being sponsored?00:23
mrooneyAlso if there is a better channel I can ask there :)00:23
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james_wmrooney: there will be a few people reviewing the applications00:27
james_wsponsorship is probably of the order of 50 people00:27
james_wmaybe not quite that many00:27
james_wthough it could all be different this time00:27
mrooneyjames_w: Okay, I am just trying to get an idea of, if the people reviewing will know me or not, and if I have any chance :)00:28
james_wthe people reviewing won't know everyone00:29
james_wbut they would ask the relevant people who would know them00:29
mrooneysounds good00:30
xteejxHi guys, haven't been on here in a LONG time, but can someone have a quick look at LP#:269193 please?00:30
mrooneybug 26919300:30
ubottuLaunchpad bug 269193 in ubuntu "[hardy] Realtek 8187 wifi overheating problems" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26919300:30
xteejxahhh is that the syntax now00:30
mrooneyxteejx: :)00:31
xteejxmrooney: thanks :)00:31
mrooneyjames_w: I have started to get into development a little (I'm a CS major) and was thinking UDS was a great way to really get into the mix00:31
james_wmrooney: it would be00:31
james_whowever, lots of people obviously want to go00:32
xteejxI haven't a clue why the wifi is overheating could it be a kernel problem with this particular brand setting the TX power too high causing it to overheat?00:32
james_wit seems like this time there is more emphasis on getting attendees to lead sessions and drive ideas00:32
bdmurraymrooney: is ubotu part of your application?00:33
mrooneybdmurray: hm, I don't think I put it in there, though it's on my wiki which is linked to from my launchpad00:34
mrooneyjames_w: I know, I'd really love to lead a discussion / present on alternate desktop input schemes00:34
bdmurraymrooney: your plans for it might be interesting00:34
mrooneylike new docks and launchers and input paradigms00:34
mrooneybdmurray: that's true, could you recommend an email address to follow up with re: my application? I wanted to include some more stuff, and a brief synopsis of where I think EeeBotu could go would be neat00:35
xteejxHello again guys... is bug 269193 formatted out ok I tried to get all teh info I could but I didn't know what package to assign it to - kernel or network-manager wasn't sure00:51
ubottuLaunchpad bug 269193 in ubuntu "[hardy] Realtek 8187 wifi overheating problems" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26919300:51
james_wxteejx: probably kernel00:51
xteejxjames_w: Thanks! Is there any way for now I can reduce the tx power to stop it happening as a kinda 'quick fix'?00:52
xteejxIf you know...:)00:52
james_wI don't know, sorry00:53
xteejxOk no problem, does anyone else know how to change the TX power on a wifi card within the terminal as a short-term solution for bug 269193?00:54
ubottuLaunchpad bug 269193 in ubuntu "[hardy] Realtek 8187 wifi overheating problems" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26919300:54
bdmurrayIt might be an option to the kernel module look at 'modinfo modulename'00:55
xteejxbdmurray: OK I'll have a look, thanks :)00:55
bdmurrayYou could also try Intrepid with a Live CD! :-)00:56
xteejxTrue, but the problem is the Ubuntu PC is half a mile away and its 12:56am lol00:56
bdmurraythat's an interesting predicament00:57
bdmurrayyou'd probably have to unload and reload the module to be able to set an option00:57
xteejxHmm, it is...it's actually my partners machine, so I can't get to it.00:57
xteejxHow do I do that, sorry I'm a bit rusty...00:57
bdmurrayrmmod; modprobe module option00:58
xteejxahhhh thanks hehe :)00:59
xteejxOne question, how do I find out which wifi driver is in use? Sorry01:04
bdmurraylook at the output of lsmod and guess?01:04
bdmurrayremoving the module will drop the wifi connection though01:05
xteejxIts kool I know that one lol I'm not that rusty ;)01:05
mrooneybdmurray: would you mind checking out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MikeRooney/EeeBotuSpec and seeing if the there are any use cases I missed under subscriptions or if I should change anything?01:25
hggdhmrooney, not that it helps any, but I like it01:35
hggdhalthough I am not sure how censoring could be enforced01:36
hggdhwhat about the ability to route bugs to specialised channels (e.g., xorg bugs with its channel, Evolution with its own, etc)01:37
mrooneyhggdh: thanks! I thought I covered that in the first bullet point, maybe it wasn't clear01:38
hggdhyes, could be a bit expanded01:39
mrooneyhggdh: would you mind doing it? then it can have a different viewpoint!01:39
mrooneyby the way, is there anything new I should push to bzr?01:39
hggdhno, not yet (got busy earning a life)01:40
hggdhbut I was thinking it might be a good idea to move IRC read to something more complete. With your plan, it now makes a lot of sense01:41
hggdhlike twisted-words, for example01:41
hggdhmrooney, darn it! You put me back with my programmer helmet (which I thought I had already retired from) ;-)01:41
hggdhmrooney, you would like t=me to add the text to the wiki?01:42
mrooneyhggdh: :) sure if you don't mind, just so it has explanations from two viewpoints01:43
mrooneyso more people "get it"01:43
hggdhmrooney, first try in. I also added picking up on bugs from other common BTSs01:52
Guest51834i have a bug for you guys...02:07
Guest51834how come the font on this page looks so messed up? http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2008/08/01/free-software-usability02:08
hggdhGuest51834, thank you, but I am unsure what this has to do with us. Could you please expand a bit?02:10
Guest51834on my ubuntu systems the font rendering on that page is fubared02:26
Guest51834on my friends mac it's not02:26
Guest51834the text looks normal and is readable there02:26
Guest51834hence, i'm assuming there's a bug somwhere02:26
hggdhGuest51834, the best bet would be to open a bug, describe what browser you use (and its version), your Ubuntu version, and add -- ideally -- screenshots02:29
Guest51834yeah, been thinking about it but i dont know how to do a bug report02:30
hggdhif you could get screenshots from your friend's mac, it would be even better02:30
Guest51834it looks the same in both firefox and opera02:30
Guest51834already have one :)02:31
hggdhgo to https://bugs.launchpad.net; also please read https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs02:31
=== Guest51834 is now known as AbtZ
AbtZtoo much to read at 3.30 am :(02:32
hggdhon firefox you can use Help/Report a problem to open the bug02:32
hggdhthis will add all necessary version information; then it is just attaching the screenshot(s), and -- of course -- describing what happens02:33
AbtZi forget the name of the font though02:34
AbtZah, think it's palatino02:35
hggdhdon't worry about it, although you can always use the "view source" of the browser to look for the font02:35
AbtZwhat's the html syntax that defines the font to be used?02:38
AbtZi searched the source for "font", but didn't get any results02:38
AbtZalso, it seems like i can only attach one screenshot?02:41
AbtZnvm, made a second post02:46
ubottuLaunchpad bug 269226 in firefox-3.0 "Web page font rendering issues (palatino font)" [Undecided,New]02:46
hggdhno, you can attach one file per time02:46
AbtZthere i filed my first bug report02:47
hggdhgood. One small step, etc ,etc02:48
AbtZi can live with that particular page being rendered improperly02:48
AbtZwhat i don't like is that the font renders quite well on my snotty friends mac ;)02:48
hggdhif it helps any, mine displays the same thing yours does02:49
hggdhso you are not alone02:49
AbtZyes, i'm assuming this is an ubuntu/linux problem02:50
hggdhI was playing around on the page, and suddenly my ffox started displaying it extremely nice02:51
AbtZhow did you solve it?02:52
hggdhnah, just a result of mesing around showing style sheets, css, etc02:52
hggdhit is now back to normal (which is to say, ugly)02:52
hggdhbut it really seems like the rendering is bad02:53
hggdhah well. bed calls me now02:54
AbtZall right02:54
AbtZthanks for you help02:54
AbtZhopefully someone who knows takes a look at the report02:55
hggdhAbtZ, lets see if someone with the necessary knowledge looks at it soon02:55
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bcurtiswxquestion for bug control: I have confirmed bug 269226 and it appears there is enough information for it to be triaged.  I wonder if this is something I can hand off to you guys (to set to triage) or if its something that should be sent upstream (and if so, should I take care of this)04:13
ubottuLaunchpad bug 269226 in firefox-3.0 "Web page font rendering issues (palatino font)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26922604:13
bcurtiswxcheck through dupes, couldn't find anything04:19
greg-gjust so I know, how do you find out what font is being used by Firefox in that case?04:20
bcurtiswxi use firebug to see whats coded into the pages04:23
bcurtiswxbut i know theres a program that tells you whats being sent between the server and firefox.. i can't remember it04:23
bcurtiswxthat may tell you04:23
bcurtiswxnot sure thoug04:23
greg-gthanks bcurtiswx04:23
macoso what's convention when a bug is confirmed but there's not enough info to mark the package?  if you ask for info and mark it incomplete, should it be marked off the bug day list to avoid repeating the same bugs, or should it be left alone?05:33
mrooneymaco: I think that counts as "hugged"05:41
macomrooney: ok05:43
dholbachgood morning05:45
macomorning...in your area05:46
dholbachmaco: I'm not going to say "good morning to you Daniel, hello there techno_freak, good night bdmurray, good afternoon persia, etc" :-)05:47
macodholbach: mmm? oh sorry, i meant that as a reply "good morning in your time zone" better?05:49
dholbachoh ok, np :-)05:49
dholbachmaybe I need some more coffee :)05:49
macothe internet is funny like that05:49
macothere are usually hugday stats showing how many bugs changed over how much time during hug day and whatnot, aren't there?06:55
macooh wait, i see it on the last one.  when do those usually get posted?06:56
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
=== bdmurray changed the topic of #ubuntu-bugs to: Ubuntu BugSquad | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad | Documentation: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | If you have been triaging bugs for a while, please apply to https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugcontrol/ | Want to report a bug? Read https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs | User support (not related to triage) is in #ubuntu
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=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
nullackPing seb128 : quick one RE bug 25649409:44
ubottuLaunchpad bug 256494 in compiz "compiz turned on again during update after I had desktop effects turned off" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25649409:44
seb128nullack: hi09:51
nullackseb128 Hi mate09:51
seb128nullack: about your crashes discussion on the list09:51
nullacksure, shoot09:51
seb128- debug version by default wouldn't work, we could build CDs09:51
seb128- the apport bugs are automatically retraced using debug symbols09:51
nullackWhats missing in the retrace to see bug squaders then marking it as invalid due to no backtrace?09:52
seb128see bug #267014 for example09:53
ubottuLaunchpad bug 267014 in gconf-editor "gconf-editor crashed with SIGSEGV in gconf_value_copy()" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26701409:53
seb128nullack: sometimes the retracing fails for some reason (versions changed, crash while upload issue, etc)09:53
seb128not sure why, the debugging toolchain is not trivial09:54
seb128there is just case or the crashdump doesn't give you a good stacktrace09:54
nullackYeah, or it might be an optimised compile that cant be09:55
seb128in some case that a retracer bug, in some case that's gdb not doing a good job, in some case that's there is upload issues09:55
seb128I'm not sure what issue you try to address there09:55
nullackBasically I see a problem, and Im interested in us trying to identify an easier way for users to respond09:55
seb128we close bugs which don't have enough informations to be worked on, which seems fair enough09:55
nullackright now they dont, the devs dont get the feedback they need and the problem doesnt get resolved09:56
seb128let's formulate this way (random numbers for the example)09:56
seb128ubuntu gets 300 crash report a week09:56
pochuthanks dholbach!09:57
seb128260 of those are good and not close09:57
seb128we have the manpower to work on 10 of those09:57
seb128do you think the not-good ones handling is the issue?09:58
seb128we still have 250 good bugs we don't work on already09:58
seb128why should we spend effort trying to figure details about the few which are broken if we have plenty of good ones already we could work on09:58
nullackBecause your missing one key thing09:59
nullackThe user experience and how it is broken should be the determining factor09:59
persiaAnd for a number of the not-good bugs, someone provides hints on how to generate a good bug.  One of the annoyances about the crash reporting system is that each new report is a new bug, even when it's just a refreshed report to generate good symbols.09:59
seb128persia: that's a detail, we can dup easily10:00
nullackThe criteria to decide what bug gets worked on shouldnt be driven by complexities with backtraces - it should be about how seriously it effects the user experience10:00
seb128nullack: right and we consider that10:00
nullackAnd what I see is these sorts of bugs get reported but dont go anywhere because the users get confused about backtracing and dont provide it10:00
seb128but a bug which happened one and has no debug information is not worth spending a debugging day10:00
seb128nullack: well, if we don't have enough informations to work on the bug why should we keep the bug open?10:01
nullackAgreed Sebastien, which is why I am suggesting a debate about what is needed to be done to overcome that10:01
seb128there is no debate needed10:01
nullackThere seems to be ideas that would help the problem10:01
seb128which ones?10:01
nullackThe other two ideas I mentioned in my mail10:01
nullackFrom the others10:02
nullackOr, my idea, though I think personally the other ideas seem better10:02
seb128nullack: alright, so10:04
seb128"tells the user the situation and downloads a debug10:04
seb128version of the package and waits for it to occur again."10:04
seb128the debug retracing happens automatically on the server side10:05
nullackSo then why are users being told they have to backtrace it under a debug build?10:05
seb128nullack: because the crashdump doesn't work for some reason10:06
seb128there is no garanty that it'll work next time10:06
seb128could be that gdb doesn't work correctly in this situation10:06
nullackRight, so lets make it easy for them because what I see happening consistently is that the users dont respond and the bug sits there10:06
seb128those reply are usually a "we don't know why retracing didn't work but it didn't, could you try that in case"10:06
nullackI think we need to more automate the get a debug build thing and help users walk through replication10:07
seb128they don't sit there, they are closed10:07
nullackSitting there or being closed the net effect is it isnt resolved :)10:07
seb128the issue is not the lack of debug build10:07
seb128it's that gdb doesn't work in all case10:08
seb128and what do we do in cases where it doesn't work and we have no clue why10:08
seb128I don't know what is required to get a good stacktrace in some case10:09
nullackI like the idea of sending a user a debug build and capturing the problem, with apport resending the complete backtrace back to the existing bug that didnt have enough info10:09
seb128but I know the bug is not useful10:09
seb128what would you do with the bug?10:09
seb128again we have debug builds10:10
seb128and user "capturing the problem" would not make a difference10:10
Ampelbeina possible solution could be to have a wikipage for each package which describes what debug-symbols are needed and point the user to it?10:10
seb128there is case where gdb is just not good at providing what we need10:10
seb128and we have no better tool10:10
seb128Ampelbein: again the issue is not the debug symbols10:10
seb128the question is10:11
seb128"what do we know when debugging an issue require a way to trigger if for somebody who has real clues"10:11
seb128"what do we do when debugging an issue require a way to trigger it for somebody who has real clues"10:12
seb128there is just cases where automatic or manual gdb use will not give you enough10:13
nullackCan I say, you wont always be able to replicate serious user experience problems in house.10:13
Ampelbeini guess this is experience. when you concentrate on few packages you will learn what the developers need in special cases.10:13
persiaEssentially, we need a means by which to verify/analyse the steps required to reproduce.  Unfortunately, it's not simple to descrbe these, as there are too many factors involved.10:13
nullackSo, then it becomes a matter of giving users tools to diagnose it and send it to people with those clues10:13
seb128nullack: right, but we don't have the manpower to spend a week on a bug10:13
seb128nullack: we don't write softwares, we distribute those10:14
nullackseb128 : well I think you would spend a week on a bug if it broke enough users machines seriously enough :) But I understand your point about limited resources10:14
seb128nullack: it's not our responsability to track tricky upstream bugs10:14
nullackSo heres an idea10:14
persiaWell, that's arguable.  As much as I don't mind closing bugs that aren't useful, I think it's worth tracking all the bugs, and linking upstream.10:14
nullackMaybe the approach is something like "this is technical thing to fix and instruct the user how to go upstream?"10:15
elmargolI think one problem is that ubuntu ships old software. Most issues are solved upstream allready10:15
nullackRight now, users get confused about techno gooble double speak about backtracing10:15
seb128persia: right, that's a different topic, I often ask people with tricky issue to open a bug on the upstream bug tracker too in case upstream has a better idea about the issue10:15
nullackIf Ubuntu cant fix it, why not just be honest to he reported and say go upstream10:15
seb128nullack: what I just wrote10:16
persiaseb128: And you are also incredibly dilligent about passing bugs upstream when they are well described :)10:16
nullackYes he is10:17
seb128well, I try to pass bugs upstream when I judge them good enough to be worked10:17
nullackSo can I summarise your view point sebastien so Im clear10:17
seb128my issue is what to do when I know the bug is not good enough to be worked10:17
seb128nullack: sure10:17
nullackYour saying we shouldnt ask for bracktraces anymore10:17
persianullack: Part of the issue is defining what "Ubuntu can't fix it" means.  Some upstreams are also involved with Ubuntu.  There are a number of upstream fixes that come from Ubuntu users.  It all depends on who looks at the bug, and how many people who can fix it desire to do so in Ubuntu.10:17
nullackWe should ask them to go upstream10:17
nullackEssentially scrap the standard boilerplate backtrace bug squad response10:18
seb128no, it's not as simple10:18
nullackOk, please explain10:18
seb128do you have a bug number example which is an issue for you?10:18
nullackYep, hang on10:19
seb128what I'm saying is basically we have10:19
seb128- bugs which are good and have enough information -> we send those upstream10:19
seb128- bugs which don't have enough information -> we try to get those informations10:19
seb128- bugs which might have enough information, that looks upstream issues but where we are not sure what is the issue -> we try to ask users to open those directly upstream where they have a better change to get a reply10:21
seb128the thing is that a good stacktrace is often enough information10:21
seb128but in case of tricky bugs debugging often requires interaction with somebody having the issue10:22
nullackseb128 : this bug isnt a serious user experience one but just to give an example : 20427210:22
seb128so forwarding doesn't work very well in such cases, that's where we encourage whoever has the issue to open the bug upstream too10:22
nullackbug 20427210:22
ubottuLaunchpad bug 204272 in pulseaudio "totem-gstreamer crashed with SIGSEGV in pa_stream_write()" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20427210:22
seb128that's a pulseaudio issue ;-)10:22
seb128this bug is not closed10:23
seb128we just have nobody really looking at pulseaudio in ubuntu10:23
seb128it should be sent upstream by somebody10:23
seb128preferably by somebody who get the bug and can reply to upstream questions on how to trigger it10:23
nullackCan we go back to the bit about not being able to look at backtraces.10:24
seb128especially that such bugs might depend of the audio configuration10:24
nullackMaybe the bug squadders need new instructions10:24
seb128do you have examples?10:24
seb128easier to comment based on a concrete example10:24
persianullack: Better instructions are usually good, but it's a matter of getting them right.10:24
nullackyes I had one about totem crashing that had 9 made invalid incomplete I dont have the number of it with me right now10:25
seb128well, most likely this bug has:10:25
seb128- no instruction on how to trigger the crash10:26
nullackpersia and seb128 : what I see is this boilerplate thing being put about needing backtrace, but now we find that devs like Sebastien are point out that it may not be Ubuntus role to fix it10:26
seb128- no debug stacktrace10:26
seb128what do you suggest to do?10:26
nullackI think maybe we should better instruct users about going upstream10:26
nullackCurrently they get this response about installing special debug packages, they get confused and they dont do it10:27
persianullack: In every case where we can't get a stacktrace?10:27
persianullack: Sometimes the crash isn't an upstream issue at all.10:27
nullackpersia : I think only when the trace from apport is no good10:27
seb128often upstream gets an higher number of crashers that we do and have very low tolerance to incomplete bugs10:27
nullackpersia : So how does Seb figure out its not upstream if the backtrace wont tell him what he needs to know?10:27
seb128at least for GNOME10:27
seb128I'm fine sending them to bugzilla but the bug will be closed there in a way similar to what we do10:28
persianullack: OK.  I worked a bug on hydrogen a while back.  I couldn't get a stacktrace, but I could reproduce.  It came from the way hydrogen was patched, and I fixed it.  Debian did the same, and fixed it differently.  Upstream never had the issue.10:28
nullackWell what does MS do? They seem to get by with a user friendly way of getting the technical details of crashes back to them.10:29
nullackOne of the responses to my mail was about that10:29
persiaWhen someone is triaging a bug that is a crash but has no stacktrace, they should try to reproduce, and collect enough information from the developer.  In cases where it can't be reproduced reliably, and we have no symbols, it's probably not interesting upstream either.10:29
nullackpersia : sometimes I find that apport has given a dump but then it comes back with need a stack trace10:30
persiaMS collecting crashes is similar to what we do with apport.  As MS doesn't make their bug DB available, we don't know how they triage them once received.10:30
persianullack: Yep.  Sometimes it doesn't work.  The solution is probably to improve apport, or try other means to find the bug, not to blindly pass upstream.10:30
nullackpersia : I like the sound of that10:31
nullackseb128 and persia : my biggest problem is what I see the current situation to be the user is asked to do stuff they dont know how to do, they dont do it, and the issue goes unresolved10:31
nullackThe point of my mail was to explore how this might be fixed given everyone agreed its a problem10:33
persianullack: Can't really help that.  The triager can do it, but if the triager can't reproduce, it may require something special on the submitter's system.10:33
seb128nullack: there is just no way to investigate some issue without the help of somebody having the issue10:34
nullackMarkus has ideas about improving apport to make it easie10:34
nullackBut, the issue then turns too this10:34
nullackIs it worth doing that10:34
seb128I don't see a real problem in the current system10:34
nullackIf devs like Sebastien are too thin on the ground and it should be analysed upstream anyway10:34
seb128if the user doesn't reply an another will do10:35
nullackWhich Ive done, and you and I have gone upstream, but thats rare10:35
nullackseb128 : surely you agree that the current systems hit rate is very low10:36
seb128"hit rate"?10:36
nullackseb128 : actually getting another back trace back after the user has installed debug packages and compiled with the request for backtrace10:36
seb128let's say I've enough valid bugs to be busy full week so I'm not looking to invest too much on incomplete bugs10:37
seb128I just reply using the stock reply10:37
RAOFWe've probably got enough reproducible crashes to fix before we try _too_ hard to fix heisenbugs.10:37
seb128if they can figure how to get extra details good10:37
nullackseb128: So I say again that shouldnt be the case10:37
seb128if not we close the bug and move on10:37
nullackseb128: The criteria for working on bugs should be how much it effects the user experience10:38
nullackNot the difficulty in debugging10:38
seb128we will consider bugs which have lot of duplicates differently10:38
seb128see bug #25217410:38
ubottuLaunchpad bug 252174 in gvfs "gvfsd-trash crashed with SIGSEGV in g_main_context_dispatch()" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25217410:38
seb128it has no good stacktrace10:38
seb128and no detail on how to trigger it10:39
persianullack: Bugs are ranked in both senses.  We want as much *total* user experience as possible, so something that affects 10,000 people and requires an hour to fix is more important than something that affects 20,000 people and takes 10 hours to fix.10:39
seb128it's a frequent crasher though, I've sent it upstream and it's milestoned10:39
nullackpersia : I see, thanks10:39
persiaAlso, if a developer can't get enough information to fix it, no amount of time will result in a fix.10:39
seb128nullack: we will investigate bugs which get a dup a week or something10:39
seb128I'll no put days efforts on something which one user ran into once and which has no detail10:40
nullackseb128 : I think thats fair, but thats not what I am getting at10:40
nullackIf the problem cant be replicated by the dev10:41
nullackIt seems to me the process of getting a user to replicate it with the required debug package and all the rest is difficult10:41
nullackPeople have suggested atleast two ways we can improve the process10:41
seb128which ones?10:42
nullackMarkus with changing apport and the other bloke about copying what MS does10:42
RAOFBut what MS does appears to be basically a subset of apport.10:43
nullackSo lets stick with Markus' idea then10:43
persiaActually, we have no idea what MS does after the upload: it could well be all of apport.10:43
seb128nullack: changing apport to do what?10:44
nullackseb128 : its in his email and I summarised it in mine10:44
RAOFI'd quite like a "install a dbgsym package for each package in the dependency chain of $PACKAGE" tool; that could be useful.10:44
seb128nullack: could you summarize it there?10:44
RAOFnullack: It's having a button "install dbgsym package", right?10:44
nullackYes Chris10:44
seb128to me it looks like "install debug packages and wait for the crash to happen again"10:45
nullackThat too10:45
seb128what do you think that would bring?10:45
seb128we have apport-retrace which does that now10:45
seb128how would that be different?10:45
nullackWell bug squadders are saying in bug reports that its needed10:45
nullackFor one, some packages may not be able to be debugged due to compiler options10:45
seb128no, what they say is "gdb didn't work on your bug for some reason"10:46
nullackSo in that case, its needed for a debug compile to diagnose10:46
nullackSeb128: I see them putting the boilerplate do a backtrace message10:46
Hobbseenullack: sure, but the bugsquadders probably have no idea what they are and arent' supposed to be doing now - there's a lot of obsolete info.10:46
seb128right, which is a lame way to say "try again, maybe it was a random error"10:46
nullackseb128: can we focus on what you just said10:47
seb128nullack: ie, an easy way to send those bugs away10:47
nullackseb128: Because what then happens is the user gets confused/afriad to install these types of packages and typically gives up10:47
nullackThats what I mean about the hit rate being poor10:47
seb128I use that as "this bug is not useful, I'm too busy to work with you on getting details, read that and try if you figure something or we will close it"10:47
seb128nullack: right, which is somewhat what I expect to be honest10:48
seb128that's "either figure by yourself or to make it useful or let's close the bug" reply for me10:48
nullackI think we need to come up with a better message because thats not what it means to a user that isnt experienced10:48
seb128I could as well close it as "retracing didn't work, I'm closing the bug, try sending it again next time you get the issue"10:49
nullackTo me, that makes more immediate sense10:49
nullackAnd the benefit is the user isnt left at a quandry about what do next10:49
seb128and what do we do if the next one is still not better? ;-)10:50
nullackId like to think in the meantime the community could be encouraged to improve the debugging tools to make real differences there10:50
nullackseb128: its not just you that does the boilerplate response, it happens with others too, so please dont think Im pointing the bone my friend :)10:51
seb128I know, but other do it for the same reason10:51
seb128we just don't want to keep useless bugs open10:51
nullackSo it seems like we might be able to agree on two points10:52
seb128but we don't have the resource to spend one day on each bug10:52
seb128it comes to what you expect from the bug tracker10:52
nullack1. Debugging tools need to be improved over FOSS and there is limits right now10:52
seb128either that's a way for user to describe their issues10:52
nullack2. There should be a change to the boiler plate response to better show the user what the real situation is10:53
seb128or that's a way for maintainers to work on problems which are described well enough to be worked10:53
nullackpersia? RAOF? those two points sound fair?10:53
seb128I think having a page explaining what the retracing does10:54
seb128why it doesn't work sometime10:54
seb128and how similar work can be done manually10:54
seb128would make sense10:54
nullackAs a third item, right10:55
seb128so we could point user there, they would have something explaining that the retracing didn't work, that we need a proper stacktrace, and how they can get one if they are wanting to do the work required10:55
nullackright, walk them through it to help them not give up10:56
nullackI think a dev would be better drafting the changes than me on that, given the technicalities of the debug10:57
persianullack: Indeed.  Part of it is a cultural shift: many long-term opensource developers are used to bug reports with a high degree of technical information, and so ways of handling bugs have evolved from that.10:58
nullackThanks guys, Ive got to have dinner shortly. Sebastien can I quickly ask you about bug 25649410:58
ubottuLaunchpad bug 256494 in compiz "compiz turned on again during update after I had desktop effects turned off" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25649410:58
persiaAs we build a trained layer of people with sufficient knowledge to prepare an excellent report, but insufficient knowledge to just fix it, and expose the processes to end-users, we'll have a better overall model.10:58
nullackseb128 : Ive confirmed it, compiz gets re enabled each time on reboot10:59
nullackpersia : I could help with doco but Im not a dev so the harder debugging techo stuff would need to be done by someone else10:59
persianullack: Understood.  Best to review the docs as they stand, and maybe some of the sessions held in -classroom.11:00
nullackpersia : noted Ill take a look11:00
seb128nullack: I'll have a look, thank you, that's likely a gnome-session issue11:00
persiaIf you've specific questions about handling apport-generated bugs, I'm probably one of several who could provide more detail in getting from good report to solution.11:00
persiaI'm not sure we have much of a body of knowledge about getting from problem to good report.11:01
nullackYes which is shown with the problem weve been discussing :)11:01
persiaRight.  There's some good documentation on collecting useful information for debugging problems with Audio, including a couple scripts that users can run to get the right information.11:02
=== pochu_ is now known as pochu
persiaLooking for similar opportunities is probably worthwhile, and if you can find some that apply generally, apport can be extended to collect additional information when the bug is submitted,11:02
nullackpersia : right, and with Sebastien's idea about walkthrough doco for why backtracing is needed, how to do the debug install etcetc the process can be alot more familiar for people11:03
persiaRight, which would be good.  I've done a couple sessions on how to go from backtrace to solution, for which logs are available on the wiki.11:04
persiajames_w: That provides instructions, but not really much narrative or explanation, so is confusing to a first-time reader, unless they are trying to accomplish some specific goal and just need a reference for commands.11:05
nullackjames_w The most immediate problem I see with that URL is an Intrepid bug reporter whos been asked to install debugging stuff will look at that and go, Oh, Im on Intrepid I dont know what to do now11:05
persiaAnyway, personally, I think turning on apport as described at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/EnableProposed is generally better than locally installing ddebs.11:06
james_wI hate to say this, but it's a wiki11:06
nullackjames_w Yes :) Ive committed to doing some doco11:06
persiaIndeed, and from the point of view of the right URL for this information to be collected, that's an ideal link :)11:06
nullackpersia : Simplier, and default alpha builds are set that way11:07
persianullack: Right, but release versions aren't, and if a user is sufficiently willing to follow-up on a crash to try to collect information, apport is probably better than locally installing dbgsyms.11:07
nullackseb128 persia : Im going to dinner now, Ill summarise this discussion and update the discuss list about it11:10
seb128have a good dinner11:10
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thekornhello bugsquad!13:13
hggdhmorning thekorn13:18
thekornhey hggdh13:22
thekornjames_w, hi, nice screencast!13:22
james_whi thekorn, thanks13:22
thekornis extmerge an alias or plugin?13:23
james_wit's a bit long and incoherent I thought13:23
james_wthekorn: plugin13:23
thekornok, cool13:23
thekornI don't think it's too long, although my vlc shows it's about 50 minutes,13:25
thekornwhich seems to be a bug13:25
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=== mvo__ is now known as mvo
pochubug 26940915:55
ubottuLaunchpad bug 269409 in meta-gnome2 "[intrepid] gnome doesn't start any more." [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26940915:55
pochupedro_: I'm suffering from that too. I've attached my .xsession-errors and a few more logs as you requested. would you mind having a look at it?15:56
pedro_pochu: i was just looking to it :-P15:56
pochuoh, cool :)15:56
pochuthank you15:56
pochuI think this is the first time I join IRC from a tty :-)15:59
persiaI had that a few hours ago, but upgrading again and rebooting restored X for me.  Are you sure it's not transient?16:06
=== warp10_ is now known as warp10
pochupersia: I've rebooted into 2.6.27-2 and 2.6.27-3 without success, and the only updated available right now are firefox and jockey16:10
persiapochu: Then I guess my problem and yours might be different.16:11
pochupersia: X starts, gdm loads, but when I try to log in, only the screensaver loads, but nothing else (panel, nautilus, etc)16:12
pochuI can move the mouse but nothing else16:12
persiapochu: Ah.  That's different than mine.  X didn't start for me.16:12
persiaDoes it work if you create a new user?16:13
pochunope, but I've tried to log in into a user which I have (almost) never used16:14
pochuI can try into a new one, let me see16:15
pochudoesn't work either16:18
pochupedro_: ^^16:19
pedro_ouch, the only weird thing i see on the logs are:16:19
pedro_x-session-manager[6754]: WARNING: Could not launch application 'gnome-panel.desktop': Unable to start application: Failed to execute child process "gnome-panel" (No such file or directory)16:19
pedro_x-session-manager[6754]: WARNING: Unable to find provider 'nautilus' of required component 'filemanager'16:19
pedro_pochu: may you check if the gnome-panel.desktop is at the /usr/share/applications/ ?16:20
pedro_pochu: please have a look to the nautilus one also16:22
pochupedro_: gnome-panel.desktop is there, but there's no *nautilus* in /usr/share/applications/16:24
pedro_m? it should be there16:25
pochugnome-panel isn't installed here16:25
pochujust gnome-panel-data16:25
pedro_do you have your upgrade logs?16:26
pedro_i wonder why it was removed16:26
=== CarlFK1 is now known as CarlF1
pedro_pochu: check if nautilus is installed also, probably isn't16:27
pochupedro_: dpkg.log is in the bug reprot16:27
pedro_ok cool16:27
pochuit's not either16:27
pochunor is ubuntu-desktop16:27
pochuI don't remember removing it16:27
pochuperhaps it was update-manager16:28
pochuI've seen bug reports about update-manager removing ubuntu-desktop and essential packages16:28
pochuBTW, I'm enjoying IRC from this tty :)16:28
pedro_old school heh? :-P16:29
pochupedro_: do you think it would be ok to mark this as a dup of the update-manager removing packages bug, and raise that one to high or even critical?16:30
pedro_pochu: yep , high is ok16:30
* pochu reinstall ubuntu-desktop16:32
pochupedro_: thanks a lot!16:32
* pochu hugs pedro_ 16:32
pedro_you're welcome ;-)16:32
* pedro_ hugs pochu back16:32
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mvo__pochu: do you remember what bugreport that was?17:38
bdmurraymvo__: Hi!17:38
mvo__pochu: removing essential package in the "Essential: yes" sense ?17:38
mvo__hey bdmurray17:38
=== mvo__ is now known as mvo
mvopochu: aha, you mentioned it on #ubuntu-desktop, thanks17:39
bdmurraymvo: I ran across bug 264181 yesterday and thought it might be interesting17:39
ubottuLaunchpad bug 264181 in update-manager "release upgrade for EOL releases fails" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26418117:39
mvobdmurray: we have a fix to enable update in feisty-proposed, I need to dig out how to verify it so that it can go to -updates17:40
bdmurraymvo: oh, heh - that'll be interesting17:41
mvobdmurray: ideally we would just keep the releases on releases.ubuntu.com for a bit longer, but apparently space on that server is tight17:41
* elkan76 hello everybody!17:41
pochumvo: I attached dpkg.log to 269409, let me know if you need any other logs or whatever17:42
bdmurraymvo: also do you work with powernowd or did you just upload it?17:43
mvobdmurray: I just uploaded it, I think I touched it once or twice, but have no real knowledge about it. why?17:45
bdmurrayit looks like there is a simple patch in bug 261608 to add support for a processor17:45
ubottuLaunchpad bug 261608 in powernowd "AMD CPU Family 17 not recognized by cpufreq-detect.sh" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26160817:45
persiabdmurray: Unfortunately, it's in the wrong queue to get uploaded.  I'll unsubscribe the universe sponsors and subscribe the main sponsors.17:48
bdmurraypersia: oh look at that, thanks!17:48
persiabdmurray: Unfortunately, the universe queue is currently long enough that it's not getting the triage it needs, as well as growing.17:49
elkan76Maybe you can help me. I've a Broadcom 4318 AirForceOne rev.02, and Ubuntu Hardy with kernel 2.6.24-21. I use the b43 module. Today after an update, my wireless drop down, i try to reload the module, but nothing happened.17:49
persiaWe're working on it, but sometimes things like this slip through the cracks.  Please feel free to subscribe the right team if you notice any others.17:49
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mcasi need help with bug 26941818:19
ubottuLaunchpad bug 269418 in base-installer "8.10 installer fails to mount cdrom" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26941818:19
mcasi think it is high importance but i am not sure18:19
elkan76Did you try the i386 installer??18:21
elkan76If the bug repeats, you can assume that's is for the project, but if does't, you can think that' is only for this arch.18:23
mcasthe unofficial ppc version shows the same problem18:25
persiaImportance "Critical" seems appropriate to me, if it's actually present for many users, as that means the alternate CD doesn't work (and the liveCD doesn't work for many use cases).  It's worth checking in #ubuntu-testing, as they do a lot of CD image testing, and may have some idea how often it occurs.18:26
mcaspersia: thanks i am asking there18:29
=== bddebian2 is now known as bddebian
bdmurraypedro_: ping19:06
pedro_bdmurray: hello19:06
bdmurraypedro_: Hi, I've noticed that bug 194921 and 203424 are likely and there are dups in gnome's bugzilla too19:07
ubottuLaunchpad bug 194921 in evolution-exchange "evolution-exchange-storage crashed with SIGSEGV in soup_message_queue_next()" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/19492119:07
ubottuLaunchpad bug 203424 in evolution-exchange "evolution-exchange-storage crashed with SIGSEGV in soup_message_queue_next()" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20342419:07
bdmurraylikely dups that is19:07
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pedro_bdmurray: mm not quite sure, but it's indeed crashing at the same function, will look at the upstream backtraces, thanks19:16
james_wbdmurray: hey. Do you think adding a note to the brainstorm part of the standard bug responses clarifying its purpose would be a good idea?19:19
bdmurrayjames_w: absolutely19:25
=== philwyett_ is now known as philwyett
james_wI had a stab at it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses19:42
james_wimprove it if you can19:42
pochuthat sounds like a challenge ;)19:42
james_wmarnanel: congratulations19:57
marnaneljames_w: thanks :)19:59
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bdmurrayjames_w: which reply is that?20:55
bdmurrayjames_w: found it20:55
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mrooneywell I think bug 269553 might be a good example of what nullack was talking about21:38
ubottuLaunchpad bug 269553 in ubuntu "[apport] gnome-panel crashed with SIGSEGV" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26955321:38
bcurtiswxmrooney, did we ever figure out what to do with the bug i mentioned last night?21:42
mrooneycan you remind me of the bug? :)21:42
bcurtiswxhaha yeah let me get on launchpad, one sec21:43
bcurtiswxbug 26922621:44
ubottuLaunchpad bug 269226 in firefox-3.0 "Web page font rendering issues (palatino font)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26922621:44
mrooneybug 269226 :)21:44
bcurtiswxhaha, i realized i forgot the "bug" just in time21:44
bcurtiswxreading up on the triage how-to i could confirm.. and it appears theres enough information for traige21:49
bcurtiswxbut idk if i should subscribe the package manager for bug control to triage or push it upstream21:50
bcurtiswxor even if its a firefox issue..21:51
mrooneybcurtiswx: yeah, are you sure it is a firefox issue?21:55
mrooneyI don't know all that much about fonts in Ubuntu21:55
bcurtiswxi can't say i do either.21:56
bdmurraytry using palatino in openoffice.org21:58
bcurtiswxhmm.. good idea21:58
mrooneybdmurray: did you have any comments or suggestions for the use cases I outlined at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MikeRooney/EeeBotuSpec ?21:59
bcurtiswxopen office does this too with the palatino font21:59
bcurtiswxso its not firefox21:59
bcurtiswxso where do I need to traige it to?22:00
bdmurrayI don't think there is a palatino font as nothing showed up in the list22:00
bcurtiswxjust type in palatino22:00
bcurtiswxit works22:00
bcurtiswxso its a font-config issue?22:02
bdmurrayI'm really not certain perhaps they'd know in ubuntu-artwork?22:03
bcurtiswxso far that channel is a ghost channel22:07
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bdmurraybcurtiswx: yes, it sounds like fontconfig but I'm getting more information22:13
bcurtiswxim talking to ubuntu-devel too22:14
bcurtiswxwill let you know if i get a good answer22:14
Ampelbeinany KDE4-user here willing to check on bug 269503 ?22:14
ubottuLaunchpad bug 269503 in kdebase-workspace "plasma crashed with SIGSEGV" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26950322:14
bcurtiswxjust an FYI, where do i search to see which package the palatino font is a part of22:16
bcurtiswxFMI* actually22:16
bdmurraypalatino isn't installed22:17
bcurtiswxso, should it be by default then?22:18
bdmurrayit seems there is a font fallback system and also a fallback font in the css on that web page22:20
jibelbcurtiswx: regarding this bug the fallback (and badly rendered) font is urw palladio22:23
jibelbcurtiswx: the bug affects either pango or freetype but not firefox one for sure22:23
bcurtiswxjibel, thank you! Im guessing freetype is more likely the culprit?22:24
bcurtiswx(as in, who i should assign this bug to?)22:25
bdmurraythe bug should be assigned to the gsfonts package22:26
bdmurrayas it provides the urw palladio font22:26
bcurtiswxok, how do you find the package manager to assign this to?22:26
bdmurraybugs shouldn't be assigned to people22:27
bcurtiswxok, j/w TY!22:28
bdmurraypeople should assign bugs to themselves when they are going to work on them22:28
bcurtiswxrequesting triage for bug 26922622:35
ubottuLaunchpad bug 269226 in gsfonts "Ubuntu fallback font 'urw palladio' is poorly rendered" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26922622:35
Ampelbeinbcurtiswx: done22:38
bcurtiswxAmpelbein, ty!22:39
bcurtiswxbdmurray, how did you find out which package urw palladio belonged to?22:49
jibelbcurtiswx: "fc-match palatino" returns "p052003l.pfb: "URW Palladio L" "Roman"" then "dpkg -S p052003l.pfb" returns gsfonts22:55
bcurtiswxthank you very very much jibel and bdmurray22:55
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