Rocket2DMnim not able to do the search to see what pages are marked with Tags00:44
Rocket2DMnwhich pretty much ruins the point00:45
Rocket2DMnor maybe its b/c nothing is actually tagged yet...00:46
Rocket2DMnok it just refreshes the Tag page if you try to search for a tag that hasnt been used yet00:50
=== ConnorImes is now known as Rocket2DMn
tedgHello, I posted a message to the mailing list that is now in the moderation queue.  Could someone forward it through please?16:56
=== philwyett_ is now known as philwyett
technomensc1good afternoon.21:12
Rocket2DMntechnomensc1, i thought CategoryApplications and related was something Duncan Lithgow created b/c he didn't know about CategorySoftware21:42
technomensc1I've lost track21:42
Rocket2DMni tagged the app stuff for deletion21:42
technomensc1that's why I brought it to the mailling list21:43
Rocket2DMnnot everything will have Tags, I think the Tags are only for the doc-team's and other contributors' benefit21:44
technomensc1I agree.21:44
Rocket2DMnother categories that are based on the page content and purpose should be kept21:44
Rocket2DMnto a degree anyway, there are too many, which is what we are trying to slim down21:44
technomensc1::nod:: I was trying to do the best I could with that21:45
Rocket2DMnin the table you  made, where you said "Converted Category Links to Tags" - is this like a status column?21:45
technomensc1I'd like that to be21:45
technomensc1the idea was for the articles that need the docs team tags only21:45
Rocket2DMnOK, ill expand on that page a bit, i just got back from the gym, so i need to clean up and eat21:46
Rocket2DMnill ping you when i get back21:46
technomensc1if I'm arround.  please feel free.  it was more of a free flowing of ideaas21:46
Rocket2DMncan do21:46
mdketechnomensc1: so, in the section "Documentation Team Categories where no tags currently exist", are you proposing new tags?21:57
mdketechnomensc1: I think we can discard certainly "CategoryDocumentation" (because the whole wiki is documentation) and the Template related pages, which aren't really categories at all and are a whole different concept21:59
technomensc1if there is a kind of agreement, than I was going to move that proposal to the tags page, yes21:59
technomensc1fine with me.  you guys have been at this longer than I21:59
mdketechnomensc1: as for the others, I think they are covered by existing tags, to be honest - I don't think they merit new tags. The more tags we have, the more confusing things are22:00
mdkewe need to strive to keep things simple, I think22:00
technomensc1well I wasn't able to figure out which would correspond with which22:00
mdkeobviously, if there is genuinely a need for a new tag, we should consider it - is there any in that list that you think are very important and not covered at all by the existing ones?22:00
technomensc1to be honest, it was more asking, which to pair up with which tag22:00
technomensc1I needed help22:01
mdkeok, let's take them in turn22:01
mdkeCategoryNoParent - there's no requirement for pages to have parents, so that can go22:01
mdkeCategoryNotDocumentation is the same as Tag/Moving22:02
mdkeCategoryDevelopment - ditto22:02
technomensc1we have the moving tag22:02
technomensc1for between community docs and team docs22:02
technomensc1do we need the other way around22:02
mdkewell, the team wiki doesn't have tags, it's outside our domain really22:03
mdkebut we use CategoryDocumentation to mark pages on the team wiki which could be moved into the help wiki22:03
mdkecarrying on down the list...22:03
technomensc1rephrase- WERE using till we decided to move to tags :)22:03
mdkeno, you're not following me22:04
mdkethe tag system is intended to be used on the help wiki22:04
mdkeit's not intended to be used on the team wiki22:04
mdkefor identifying pages in the team wiki which are documentation and which could be moved into the help wiki, we have used (and can continue to use) CategoryDocumentation22:05
mdkeyou're clear on the distinction between the help wiki and the team wiki right? (I ask because a lot of people are confused by the distinction)22:05
technomensc1the help community wiki is for technical documentation related to the using of the os22:05
technomensc1the team wiki is for how we manage those docs22:06
technomensc1and communicate with each other22:06
mdkeright, and also for all other Ubuntu teams, like the development team, marketing team etc22:06
mdkeok back to the list22:06
mdkeCategoryDiscontinued is the same as Tag/Unsupported (or Tag/Deletion in extreme cases)22:07
mdkeI think that deals with all of em22:07
technomensc1alright.  now, there was a bit of confusion on my part between category software and category applications22:08
mdkehmm, why have those Debian pages been moved to the help wiki, they totally don't belong there22:11
technomensc1I haven't touched them.  I've only been working on this discussion page22:11
technomensc1unless you are talking about Reassign/Update/Remove22:12
mdkeno, nothing to do with you, I just noticed there was a CategoryDebian which isn't needed22:13
technomensc1LOL.  yea, I noticed that myself.  I was clueless what we should do with it22:13
* mdke cleans up22:14
technomensc1mind if I quote you on my notes on that page?22:15
Rocket2DMnhehe yeah team wiki...22:15
Rocket2DMni mentioned it on the email list last spring, the Beginners Team is using the help wiki to stay organized22:15
mdketechnomensc1: in which bit?22:16
Rocket2DMnthe basic structure was already in place when i showed up, so i just expanded on it22:16
mdkeRocket2DMn: yeah, I know, the WikiTeam pages are there too, but they should both really be moved22:16
technomensc1the category tags22:16
technomensc1I mean category titles that we agree weren't needed22:16
duncan-nztechnomensc1, ping22:16
Rocket2DMnmdke, if they really need to be moved, i can work on bringing them over sometime22:16
mdketechnomensc1: I think the "Documentation Team Categories where no tags currently exist" section can just be removed from that page, to be honest, if you're happy with my explanation above22:17
duncan-nztechnomensc1, could save the https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CategoryCategory/PageDiscussion so I can correct a small typo?22:17
mdkeRocket2DMn: I'd like to do the WikiTeam bit myself, because I've been thinking a bit recently about the best way to do it, and I want to try and blend it in with the DocumentationTeam pages. But if you could do the Beginners Team pages (if that team is happy with it), then that would be great22:18
duncan-nztechnomensc1, I mean please save that page so I can edit it for a moment.22:18
mdkehi duncan-nz22:18
Rocket2DMnduncan-nz, i wouldnt worry about typoes at the moment, the pag eis still undergoing a lot of work22:18
technomensc1duncan, I need to address the concerns made by me and matt first22:18
duncan-nztechnomensc1, it's a necessary one to stop out list of categories adding the page to each category.22:18
duncan-nztechnomensc1, ok22:18
Rocket2DMnmdke, ill work on moving the structure in a month or two, the BT needs a big heads up well in advance22:18
technomensc1and you removed the checklist which was quite a necessaity to the page22:18
mdkeRocket2DMn: yes, that's perfectly understandable22:19
Rocket2DMnhey what happened, the page lost the structure we had...22:19
duncan-nztechnomensc1, when you can a chance please change CategorySoftwareCleanup to ``Category``Software``Cleanup thanks.22:19
technomensc1rocket2dmn, that would be me.....22:20
Rocket2DMnok go ahead and do w/e you will with the page22:20
technomensc1but I'm still trying to find out who removed the checklist22:20
mdkeguys, let's get a bit of perspective about this page before we get too attached to it22:20
Rocket2DMntechnomensc1, i got an email update on the page, i think duncan-nz did22:20
duncan-nzI've also edited on top of someone about an hour ago. I think the notice that someone else has the page needs to be much clearer! I didn't notice it at all.22:20
* Rocket2DMn enters perspective mode22:21
mdkethe reason I tried to play down an attempt to fix a definitive list of categories, is that it's not really possible22:21
mdkepeople introduce new categories on the wiki all the time and there will always be new ones springing up around the place22:21
mdkewhat we need to ensure is that the cleanup Tags that we have introduced can replace the existing cleanup tags, leaving the "subject-matter" tags to develop naturally, as they will22:22
Rocket2DMnmdke, agreed, but how do we handle that?  i thought part of the process was to clean out some of those weirder mostly unused tags22:22
technomensc1and unused categories that make no sense22:22
duncan-nzthere are only 20 pages left in the cleanup tags.22:22
mdkethat's cool22:23
duncan-nzyup, someone's been hard at work.22:23
technomensc1that cannot be right unless he means changing from category cleanup to tag cleanup22:23
mdkeRocket2DMn: yes, clearing out won't hurt, but the aim of that discussion page seems to be rather wider than that22:23
duncan-nzthat's what I mean22:23
Rocket2DMnyeah, i think one of our issues is that we don't have a description of _exactly_ what it is that we are trying to do22:24
Rocket2DMndifficult to have a proposal without a mission22:24
duncan-nzoh, sorry I wrote tags, I meant CategorySoftwareCleanup and CategoryApplicationsCleanup - not quite the smae at all...22:24
mdkeRocket2DMn: how about this - "to add the various Tags which we have to the pages that they apply to" :)22:24
Rocket2DMnduncan-nz, i would tag those two categories with the new ContentCleanup tag, sinec we are getting rid of CategoryCleanup, too22:25
technomensc1I thought that was the original plan all along22:25
Rocket2DMnmdke, yes, but also to clean shop on the existing Categories that they are replacing22:25
duncan-nzRocket2DMn, ok22:25
Rocket2DMnduncan-nz, check with mdke on my suggestion22:25
mdkeRocket2DMn: i don't understand the concept of tagging a category page :)22:25
mdke(re your suggestion)22:26
technomensc1LOL.  here is my thought process and let's see if we are on the same page.....22:26
Rocket2DMnmdke, arent we trying to get rid of the usage of CategoryCleanup and CategoryNeedsExpansion in favor of tags22:26
duncan-nzRocket2DMn, I've just been using tags and deleting the link to Category$somethingCleanup22:26
mdkeRocket2DMn: yes, absolutely right22:26
mdkeduncan-nz: also right22:26
Rocket2DMnduncan-nz, +122:26
mdkeah, we still have 300 pages in CategoryCleanup, I misunderstood duncan-nz earlier when he referred to 20 pages22:27
Rocket2DMnI think right now CategoryCleanup is a bit heavy, i will have the BT wiki FG start helping with that22:27
technomensc1and that was why I had put the checklist on the discussion page.  so we could track when we had finished converting the categorylinks to tags22:27
duncan-nzmdke, my statement was misleading22:27
Rocket2DMnlets sideline CategoryCleanup for right now22:27
mdkeduncan-nz: I've got it now :)22:27
mdketechnomensc1: there isn't a need for a checklist... you just look at the Category page and it shows you how many pages it has left in it, or am I misunderstanding your objective?22:28
Rocket2DMnNeedsExpansion is much smaller, those can be converted to the Needs Expansion tag22:28
technomensc1would everyone agree that we need to finish with the tagging before we even think about categories?22:28
duncan-nzHej I'm off to bed. But it's great to be able to see and help with some real progress aon the http://help.ubuntu.com/ wiki22:28
Rocket2DMngnight duncan-nz , thanks for stopping by22:28
duncan-nztechnomensc1, perhaps, but the page we're playing on now is about categories.22:28
duncan-nznight all.22:28
mdketechnomensc1: well, part of the exercise is to remove the category label when you add the tag, but I think I know what you mean22:28
duncan-nz(I'm in denmark so it is actually late)22:29
mdkeI agree that we should forget about "subject-matter" categories for now22:29
Rocket2DMntechnomensc1, they are tied together, the Tag system was created to replace some of the Categories because categories arent as visible or descriptive22:29
Rocket2DMnso here's how i see it:22:29
mdkeok, we're on the same page right now22:29
Rocket2DMn1) replace all CAtegoryNeedsExpansion pages with Needs Expansion tag - this we can do immediately22:30
technomensc1same with categorydeletion22:30
technomensc1and categorymoving22:30
Rocket2DMn2) have a wiki admin go through and delete the appropriate pages under CategoryDeletion - all future deletion requests should go under the Deletion tag22:30
mdkeRocket2DMn: hold for a sec22:30
Rocket2DMn(please be careful not to delete pages that link to deletion but arent marked ot be removed)22:30
* Rocket2DMn holds22:30
mdkethat's helpful. While we're on it, let's just identify all the other categories that fall under your (1)22:31
technomensc1mdke, would you be willing to go onto the Tag page and demonstrate what we were talking about regarding which category corresponds to which tags22:31
mdkeyep, let's make a list22:31
mdkeso, needsexpansion22:31
Rocket2DMnmdke, CategoryCleanup will fall under it, but it is so large that i think we can wait until we have the rest under control22:31
mdkeRocket2DMn: no, sorry22:32
mdkein (1), we're talking about categories which exactly correspond to a tag22:32
mdkei.e. the easy bit22:32
Rocket2DMnmdke, those do22:32
mdkeright, so we'll come on to CategoryCleanup later22:32
mdkeI just want to make a list of (1) categories22:32
technomensc1that's the hardest, so that's last22:32
Rocket2DMnin fact CategoryCleanup matches a few tags - Content cleanup, Style Cleanup, Unsupported Version, and Page Too Long22:33
mdkeyes, exactly. that's why I said hold so we can talk about the easy ones22:33
Rocket2DMnok good, we're on the same page then22:33
mdkeso, NeedsExpansion, Moving, Discontinued, NotDocumentation all correspond to existing tags. Any others?22:33
mdkeI'm writing this down so we can have a little plan of action22:33
technomensc1getting back to your list.....shouldn't you also post the categories to remove, like noparent,development,discontinues22:34
Rocket2DMnthats another step technomensc122:34
mdkeyes, that can be (3)22:34
mdkeanything else for (1)?22:34
Rocket2DMnis somebody recording this on the PageDiscussion right now?22:34
technomensc1oh, we're still talking about 122:34
mdkeRocket2DMn: I'm writing it down22:34
technomensc1well there was the obvious deletion mdke22:35
technomensc1that's not on your list22:35
mdkeyes, let's add that22:35
mdkeany others?22:36
Rocket2DMncan you list the ones you have please22:36
technomensc1the library here closes in about 20 min, so that's what I've got left22:36
mdke22:33:28 < mdke> so, NeedsExpansion, Moving, Discontinued, NotDocumentation all correspond to existing tags. Any others?22:36
mdketechnomensc1: that should be about right :)22:36
technomensc1at this moment, that's all I can think of.  any more and I'll send to the mailing list22:37
Rocket2DMnnot documentation -> moving tag?22:37
nixternalwhoa it is the mastah himeself!22:37
nixternalhow's it going mdke?22:37
mdkeRocket2DMn: yeah22:37
mdkenixternal: good thanks, you?22:37
Rocket2DMnok lets move on then22:37
nixternalbusy busy busy :)22:37
nixternalwork is killing my time22:37
technomensc1step 2 is getting rid of the doc categories that are pointless......22:37
mdkeRocket2DMn: ok, go ahead with your (3)22:37
technomensc1what about 222:37
Rocket2DMnwhat was 3 going to be?22:37
mdkeok, timeout22:38
Rocket2DMni think you combined 1 and 222:38
mdkeRocket2DMn's (2) was the Deletion tag, which we've dealt with22:38
mdkeso (2) disappears into (1)22:38
mdkeanyone crosseyed yet?22:38
Rocket2DMnso now, new (2)22:38
technomensc1getting there22:38
mdkenew (2) it is. that's technomensc1's one22:38
Rocket2DMn2 = page content categories22:39
mdke(2)Removing unwanted Categories22:39
technomensc1categorynoparent, notdocumentation, development,discontinues,template, etc....22:39
Rocket2DMnok lets expand on that22:39
technomensc1we already did22:39
Rocket2DMni think we want to keep Template (is this used)22:39
technomensc1you were taking a shower22:40
Rocket2DMnwait i read that22:40
mdkewe should keep Template22:40
mdkeit's part of Moin's way of handling stuff, rather than one of our categories22:40
technomensc1fine with me22:40
technomensc1works for me22:40
Rocket2DMnthere is CategoryTemplate and DocumnetaitonTemplate22:40
mdkeNoParent is a definite gonnar22:40
technomensc1was just about to ask that rocket22:40
mdkeNoDocumentation and Development and Discontinued are part of (1), so they don't count22:40
Rocket2DMni think we want to keep the first one22:40
mdkeRocket2DMn: they are two totally different concepts22:41
Rocket2DMnoh ok22:41
technomensc1I see what he means22:41
technomensc1but can we rename them.....22:41
Rocket2DMnwhat about CategoryDocumentaiton?22:41
mdkeany page ending in "Template" appears in the left hand menu when you create a new page, to allow you to use a template22:41
mdkeCategoryTemplate is a page which lists all Templates22:41
mdkeRocket2DMn: good one22:41
Rocket2DMndelete that one mdke ?22:41
technomensc1so mdke, you'll explain on the tag page which tags go with nodocumentation/development/discontinued back in (1), right?22:42
Rocket2DMnthere are quite a few we can delete, i had my suggestions listed, but it got removed22:42
Rocket2DMnCategoryUbuntu804 and its subpage?22:42
technomensc1rocket, I think I moved them, not deleted them...check the diff22:42
mdketechnomensc1: I'm going to do it in a separate document that I'll post on the mailing list22:42
technomensc1wrong topic rocket22:42
technomensc1that's like 4 or 522:43
Rocket2DMnoh, ok...22:43
mdkehaha, this is total mayhem. I think we can leave 804 until another day22:43
mdkewhen we have implemented proper version tags22:43
Rocket2DMnis version tags one of our numbered things on the to-do list today?22:44
mdkeRocket2DMn: no. we need to add some software to the wiki first, which sommer wrote22:44
mdkeso, any more for (2)?22:44
Rocket2DMnwe might need to expaond on 2 when we have a definitive list22:44
mdkeI see the list on the Discussion page22:45
mdkebut I think that's a bit ambitious for now22:45
technomensc1rocket, #2 is only for the docs team tags for now22:45
mdkelet's leave the issue of "subject-matter" categories until later22:45
technomensc1and the categories we don't need22:45
Rocket2DMnah ok22:45
mdkealthough, please remove CategoryHomepage from that table - we probably need that for the time being22:45
technomensc1not up to subject yet.  we can't do subjects until we know what we ourselves are doing22:45
mdkealright, (3) is CategoryCleanup, right?22:46
mdkeok, I can sketch that out. I think 3 is enough22:46
mdkeanything we've missed?22:47
Rocket2DMnfor CategoryCleanup, the pages marked with that need to be removed from the category and assigned appropriate Tag (there are a few that apply)22:47
* mdke nods22:47
technomensc1the only thing is distinguishing between appcleanup and softwarecleanup22:47
technomensc1and how did that get duplicated?22:47
Rocket2DMnyeah thats part of the content stuff technomensc122:47
Rocket2DMnor is it22:47
Rocket2DMnduncan did that i think22:48
Rocket2DMnb/c he didnt know about the Software stuff22:48
technomensc1how about anything that is either one, just tag as cleanup for now22:49
technomensc1and we'll worry about application or software afterwards22:49
technomensc1when we hit the content stuff22:49
Rocket2DMnactually Application and Software stuff is a mess, i looked through those yesterday, there are a string of pages pointing you to other pages, some of those which we are trying to get rid of in favor of tags...22:49
mdkeyes, we should discuss that on the mailing list22:49
mdkeI think it's pretty difficult to make out a case for a rational distinction between "Application" and "Software", but duncan seems to have an idea, so we'll see what he has to say22:50
technomensc1if he can ever get the emails....didn't he complain about that.  can't he check the archives on the site?22:50
Rocket2DMnhe just didnt know, so the CategoryApplications and CategoryApplicationsCleanup are to be removed22:50
* mdke shrugs22:51
Rocket2DMnduncan created CategorySoftwareCleanup to replace CategoryApplicationsCleanup22:51
Rocket2DMnb/c CategorySoftware already existed22:51
technomensc1as of right now, categoryapplicationscleanup and softwarecleanup just get those cleanup tags22:51
mdkenow I'm really crosseyed22:51
technomensc1and get category links revmoed.  that would be my recommendation22:51
Rocket2DMnmdke, exactly22:51
mdkebut we made some good progress, I'll write it up and post it22:51
technomensc1may I take the speaking stick?22:51
* Rocket2DMn listens22:52
technomensc1as of right now, regarding software and applicationcleanup....just tag them with the cleanup tags or more content, or whatever tags fit the best.22:53
technomensc1leave the categorysoftware or applicationcleanup links22:53
technomensc1so we can find them later22:53
technomensc1or change them to just categorysoftware or categoryapplication...ya, that's better22:54
technomensc1<<can't think22:54
Rocket2DMni would rename CategoryApplicaitonsCleanup to CategorySoftwareCleanup22:54
technomensc1and I think just change it to categorysoftware with a cleanup tag22:54
Rocket2DMnsame for CatregoryApplicatiosn->CategorySoftware22:54
Rocket2DMnmove in baby steps essentially22:55
Rocket2DMnthen we can get rid of the Applications* categories22:55
technomensc1and THEN move to tagging, good idea22:55
Rocket2DMnthen tag CategorySoftwareCleanup with the appropriate Tag and remove the Category22:55
technomensc1will be longer, but make more sense22:55
technomensc1any seconds?22:56
Rocket2DMntechnomensc1, i would have liked to do it in one swoop, but after looking through it yesterday, its just too confusing22:56
technomensc1I agree with you completely rocket22:56
technomensc1we need to see what we have before we can do anything with it22:56
technomensc1and on that note, I have to bid you both farewell.  I think this was very productive.  pleasure working with both of you22:57
Rocket2DMnthanks technomensc1 same to you22:57
mdkeme too22:57
Rocket2DMnok mdke, after you put the outline on the wiki, we can get started22:59
Rocket2DMnits Friday, take your time :)22:59
mdkeRocket2DMn: cool, thanks. Cya23:00
Rocket2DMnill be around if you need to chat more, just ping me.  we got some good work done, 100x faster than over email, hehe23:01

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