[00:08] Anyone care to discuss something? [05:11] AliTabuger7: What's up? [05:45] Hi [05:53] AliTabuger7: What's up? [05:54] nothin [05:55] What part of the marketing team are you from? [05:55] We don't really have "parts" [05:56] In launchpad we kind of do, depending on what you do. [05:57] AliTabuger7: How do you figure? [05:57] For example, I'm a new member of the "spreadubuntu" team, which is a subteam of the Ubuntu Marketing Team [05:58] Its not really a separate team as far as efforts are concerned, and it only exists to keep the bzr branch ownership sane. [05:58] Although, I probably should have been more specific, like what do you specialize in doing [05:58] As well as different responsibilities and focuses [05:59] Flannel: So anyway, what do you do? [06:00] For the marketing team? Right now I'm concentrating mostly on the backend (well, the ... further-back backend) for SU [06:01] Interesting. I am pretty familiar with Drupal myself, which is one of the reasons I became so interested in helping SU [06:02] I've tried to read up on the mailing list. Are you doing the OpenID specialization? [06:03] AliTabuger7: Nah, that's the not-so-back backend ;) [06:03] theming then? [06:04] Me? No. I'm doing most of the nuts and bolts that no one will ever see, or interface with much. [06:04] Or at least, if it all works properly ;) [06:04] I see [06:05] Well I signed up here because I wanted to 'attend' that meeting on sunday [06:05] AliTabuger7: Sounds good. [06:06] is there a bzr branch that you are using that I could check out? [06:06] AliTabuger7: I'm doing the bzr <-> website DB stuff. Or at least, I'm supposed to be :) My LoCo had me pretty busy there for a bit. [06:07] AliTabuger7: Not much code yet, lots of reading bzr documentation (and learning python). Unfortunately, bzr isn't too well documented unless you're going to use it for VC or hack it to add features. Of which we're doing neither. [06:09] Well I would love to see some kind of framework so I could help or at least start thinking about what to do. Theres doesn't seem to be a good place to do that because all of the branches seem abandoned [06:09] But, I'm still pretty optimistic about it. [06:10] AliTabuger7: Most of the work is going to be done on the not-so-backend side, to be honest. Once we get a DB layout pinned down (or at least sketched), we should be fine to work on each half in parallel [06:10] Yeah, someone said it right in the mailing list. We just have to get the basics down and we can improve from there. [06:12] Ok. Well my experience is mainly in drupal's theming. I have a little bit of experience coding for it, though not much. [06:13] Alright, so sounds like you'll work on the frontend ;) [06:13] I am familiar with programming though, I have the time, and would really love to help ubuntu so I'll do whatever you need [06:14] AliTabuger7: which languages? [06:15] I took a class for VB .Net (not too useful) and I'm in C++ right now [06:15] and i've done enough coding for drupal themes to recognize that they are all extremely similar [06:15] except vb.net... [06:16] Doesn't sound like much, but I actually have a knack for this sort of thing. I learned HTML and CSS all on my own with the help of google [06:17] Which version of drupal are you planning on using? [06:17] I have no idea. That's not my realm [06:18] You'd have to ask hubuntu [06:18] ok [06:19] that's leaving me a little confused though on what it is that you do. the version is extremely important pretty much no matter what you are doing [06:23] is this mockup from the wiki the general idea: http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/1834/mockup6bismn7.png [06:23] AliTabuger7: well, we've got a database on the server (with the website) that the site itself uses, and then we have a bzr branch, and we need to keep them synched. [06:24] Oh so you're doing like server applications, not the drupal php [06:24] the even-further backend, yes. [06:25] not the website backend, but the behind-the-scenes stuff for the website [06:25] now i understand. sorry i've been bothering you about stuff thats not even close to your area === shahriar086 is now known as shahriar_away === philwyett_ is now known as philwyett [20:12] Hi Everybody. Would anyone want to discuss something about marketing? === shahriar_away is now known as shahriar086 [20:13] AliTabuger7 I am listening [20:13] though I am no expert I should tell you that before hand [20:14] shariar I had no specific topic [20:14] aah ok :) [20:15] you can start AliTabuger7 [20:15] I might learn something valuable from you :) [20:16] and you might gain something too :) [20:17] Exactly, but I'm pretty new here too. I joined this channel because the SpreadUbuntu launchpad team will be having a meeting here on sunday, and I decided I really want to help spreadubuntu [20:18] that is great :) [20:18] shahriar, why are you here? [20:18] humm I am a marketing major student [20:19] beside I like helping people out,, [20:19] where are you from AliTabuger7? [20:19] Ah, well I have next to no experience marketing. I just figured i could help SU because I'm familar with Drupal, the CMS they will be using [20:19] chicago, usa [20:19] that is not a problem [20:20] I know less about technical stuff [20:20] its not necessary you need to know everything, the job can be divided know? [20:21] yup, working together [20:21] :) btw I am from Bangladesh [20:21] I hope you know where it is :) [20:22] india? [20:22] nope but close [20:23] neighboring country [20:23] south east of india [20:23] got it. doesn't that mean it's really late at night where you are? [20:23] yes [20:23] its 1.23 am [20:23] I am night bird :P [20:23] Ah, well don't feel you have to stay because of me [20:24] no no, that is not a problem [20:24] I will tell you if I feel sleepy, I cant go to bed unless & until I feel sleepy [20:25] I am on Ubuntu-bangladesh team, you are on any team? [20:26] just the SpreadUbuntu team so far [20:26] ok :) [20:27] SU is exciting to me because it'll be a multilingual place where people can share and get marketing materials [20:27] yes I hope that it really gets to that far [20:28] I also liked the idea :) [20:28] but have not seen any preview so can't comment on it yet [20:29] well if they would just get up a bzr branch i could do it myself, but it wouldn't be as good as if more experienced people would help. I don't pretend to know everything, but just a place with a purpose is a great step forward. [20:29] I've seena couple mockups, but not much. If the mockups are correct, it reuses the themes from ubuntu.com and brainstorm.ubuntu.com [20:30] humm [20:30] yes [20:30] though what I have seen nothing great or ground breaking [20:30] I have also seen a couple artsy ones, but they didn't look to practical for a web interface [20:31] humm its sometimes happens [20:31] from marketers point of view and technical point of view, things could be different [20:34] http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/1834/mockup6bismn7.png [20:34] http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/6892/spreadubuntugh5.jpg [20:34] checking them [20:35] humm yes [20:35] something like this [20:35] Both of those are my favorites. the second could be refined a little more [20:35] :) [20:36] I did not see these ones [20:36] may be they added later [20:36] will have to check again, thanks for sharing [20:37] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Projects/SpreadUbuntu/diy#Design [20:38] I got few links from their personal blogs [20:38] where are those? [20:39] wait checking [20:40] http://doc.ubuntu.com/~marketing/spreadubuntu/SpreadUbuntu%20Design%20Mockups/ [20:43] yeah, see those are some of those ones that look very good visually, but if it were a website, you'd probably get frustrated with it. They might make good brochures or posters [20:43] humm [20:43] well its actually less knowledge about technical aspect? [20:43] may be doable but tough [20:44] There are elements that I like a lot. For example the series of "see" "try" "get" "shipit" "spreadit" on most of them are really good [20:45] yes [20:45] but almost all of them have giant images behind the body text, which is bad for pagesize and readibility [20:45] humm [20:47] perhaps [20:47] I am wondering what is the advancement [20:48] I mean whether they have decieded on anything [20:48] I don't really know. Thats why I wanted to see their meeting [20:49] humm [20:49] none actually knows for sure [20:49] Sure we do. Its just not much. [20:49] Or at least, not much measurable stuff [20:50] yes Flannel? I did not get you sorry [20:51] shahriar086: We know how much has been done, and there isn't a lot of visible progress (we can't say "here's a demo version"), but there's been a bit of non-physical progress [20:51] humm ok Flannel [20:52] I know that Flannel has been working on some kind of database architecture that I do not understand [20:52] I am saying on the point of outsiders view, ignore my last comment please [20:53] but you have to agree part of marketing is dependent on view [20:53] Yeah. I read that they are projecting it'll be out by 8.10. It might still be able to be done, I think. [20:54] actually my whole opinion was as an outsider point of view [20:55] this is actually a problem many people says about Business or marketing students. That they have very shortsightedness, and they rely too much on present view [20:56] I can say I was disappointed on the fact that there is no clear goal on the marketing part of Ubuntu [20:56] Bug #1 [20:56] sure there is a goal of eleminating bug #1 [20:56] but how? [20:56] marketing or business does not run like that [20:56] goal is supported by objectives [20:57] and courses of actions [20:57] I was just thinking about that somehow. Thats REALLY long term. I was thinking maybe a concrete goal should be set for some kind of explosive growth for the next release [20:57] like a 25% increase [20:57] or better yet. 1% market share [20:57] yes [20:58] sometimes that is a problem in terms how we messure? [20:58] we can messure on many sides yet they are not sufficient [20:59] Linux as a whole is almost to 1% according to a survey i saw a week ago. Maybe ubuntu alone could get 1% on 9.04 with enough marketing. [20:59] yes I saw them too :) [21:00] its much more complecated really [21:00] I know. But Firefox did it. [21:00] worse part is many people are not even willing to listen [21:00] still firefox have less than 20% [21:01] I admire firefox foundation for that [21:01] True, but I have yet to see an Ubuntu ad anywhere. [21:01] Firefox beat that two years ago [21:01] maybe a year [21:01] hummm that is on account of one site only [21:02] advertising helps [21:02] but to me its not about the knowledge its about the technical barriar to break out of [21:02] http://mozillalinks.org/wp/2008/01/firefox-global-market-share-reaches-211/ http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080129-firefox-gobbles-up-more-internet-explorer-market-share.html [21:03] yes thanks, I said the 20% is on account of one site only [21:03] that site even identifies ie has 35% opera has 2% [21:04] then what happened to other 43%? [21:05] its actually an estimation, which is good [21:05] what I have seen from my personal experience is that its not the lack of knowledge about the existance of Ubuntu or Linux [21:06] its lack of knowledge of effective support [21:06] http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp [21:06] That one's probably a little skewed [21:07] But they're showing 1% increase per month for the last year [21:07] by one mean, for the example of Firefox, the user don't have to face a huge change in behavior [21:07] I mean huge change in environment [21:07] basic things are same [21:07] but when people switch to linux from mac or windows they feel lost [21:08] and if I ask around for a problem in windows I can assume that 7 out of 10 people can give me quick help [21:08] I agree. Many people even at my university have never heard of linux. This means that the maketing could be very effective, since there is almost know pre existing knowledge. Furthermore, whether they know about linux or not, they are likely sick of windows [21:08] but in the case of linux it gets worse, may be 1 or 2 in every 10 person [21:09] thats why there's ubuntuforums. They know everything. [21:09] yes [21:10] humm actually people dont prefer it because its too fast [21:10] too fast? [21:10] even a new comer on #ubuntu will be scared and can't keep track of it [21:10] the ubuntu irc channel is way to fast [21:10] humm yes [21:11] http://ubuntuforums.org/ [21:11] yes I know [21:11] it should have diversification [21:11] That IRC channel is extremely difficult to keep track of what's going on [21:11] hummm... [21:12] lets say what problem I face in BD [21:12] ok [21:12] first of all there are less techie person who have the right knowledge [21:12] 2nd I don't know why people don't google [21:13] 3rd they don't like articles in english [21:13] 4th many tutorials experts give help by mean of shell [21:14] 5th the linux groups are ineffective [21:14] 6th no govt cooperation [21:15] I have seen there are tremendus interest about linux among BD people [21:15] but there are less scope to work here, [21:15] 1- true 2 - doesn't make sense to me either. with as useful of error outputs as they give, it should be easy 3- very understandable. I wouldn't want to have to read a spainish manual just so I can use my OS 4- They think it's easier, but I agree with you 5- How so? 6- What are they doing or not doing? [21:16] a symptom of bug#1 [21:16] humm [21:17] we have no technological infrastructure to tell the truth, all in monopolistic situation [21:17] we have 10KB lines in most households [21:18] that alone would make it nearly impossible to download a linux iso or even to update the system [21:18] with which it is hard to browse hundreds of sites and download tutorials and such [21:18] yes true [21:18] and many of us don't have access to repo dvd [21:18] maybe you should head some kind of CD emphasis for your area? they also have a method of using an "update" cd as a repository instead of over the internet [21:19] that makes it much more worse [21:19] yes we are trying it [21:20] Does everyone have a dvd drive? i'm in the US, where i'd like to think most of us have good computers and even on a university campus some people still just have CD drives. [21:20] currently we are trying to imply a shipit-bangladesh version [21:20] humm no [21:20] versities are of the poorer condition [21:21] no library help and administrative help (like law enforcement building or fire station) [21:21] its actually a third world country [21:21] so you can imagine it [21:21] Well i'm reminded of a Brainstorm idea that I thought was mediocre at the time. He suggested that libraries or malls could have a small stack of them so people could get access to it faster [21:22] its off no use really [21:22] well it wouldn't have to be a library or mall, but a centralized location where everyone would know where to look [21:22] it will get missmanaged [21:22] this means a dedicated place [21:22] a club house, play ground, stall such [21:23] but we don't have them actually [21:23] I mean we have them but no sponsors [21:23] its tough to work without sponsors or volunteers [21:23] I would imagine the best place would be wherever the fastest internet connection is [21:24] humm [21:24] You could always charge for the value of the cd and refund it when it is returned [21:24] yes [21:24] but its nothing compared [21:25] compared to what? [21:25] for example I can burn 5 cds for $1 [21:25] sounds right [21:25] charge a quarter [21:25] yes [21:26] what we are currently doing is providing the iso they burn it themselves [21:26] the extra couple cents could go towards new cds when those become out of date [21:26] (many have cd burner at home, or many mall have them) [21:26] how are they getting the iso? usb stick? [21:27] humm we are travelling to a common place [21:27] house call or office call [21:27] yes usb stick [21:28] we actually don't like to charge for what is free [21:28] Supposedly 8.10 will have a feature where you can turn the USB stick into a LiveUSB stick, which would eliminate the need for a cd [21:28] humm 8.04 can be turned into it too [21:28] legally you are allowed to charge for the media and shipping (not applicable) [21:28] not officially supported though [21:29] yes I know [21:29] but people wont understand them [21:29] they state we can have them for free from shipit how come you charge us? [21:29] it's use a GUI so it'll be really easy to install to the stick [21:29] many don't pay [21:30] they turn in faulty cds in return [21:30] faulty means cheap [21:30] I see [21:30] at first we accepted cds in return, but it turned out problemetic as many started to provide cheap cds in return [21:31] now we are want something shipit-bangladesh [21:31] they will only pay the shipment cost [21:31] its faster and cheaper too [21:32] wouldn't take much to beat a 10kbps download [21:32] sorry? [21:32] it takes around 3-4 days [21:33] but many gives up before that [21:33] yeah. It'd take 20 hours straigt asuming you were getting a full 10 [21:34] humm [21:34] I don't sit in front of pc more than 10hr [21:35] so two days myself, and I don't like the fact keeping my pc on over night [21:35] + loadshedding is a common factor, about 3-6 hours it varies depending on the location [21:36] in my area its only 1-2 hrs a day, and people call me lucky, many area have 8-10 hrs loadshedding [21:37] i don't even know what loadshedding is [21:38] ohh mannual power outage [21:38] intentional power outage to cover the excess demand [21:38] wow, that does suck [21:39] hopefully they use .torrents or .jigdo's [21:39] yes it does. [21:39] otherwise it would never complete [21:39] humm yes that's the only way to go [21:39] but many don't understand torrent thing here [21:39] not blamming them I also once had no idea about it [21:40] a lot of people dont, but an amazing amount actually alredy have a torrent application installed, but usually because they want to pirate something. Thats why I have such a hard time understanding why the .torrent isnt listed on the main download page [21:41] humm [21:41] may be because they have less idea about the problem we face [21:42] can you imagine how much it costs cannonical to operate its shipit in BD? [21:42] how about just plain shipit [21:42] or the kind of bandwidth they need to have distributed millions of 700mb iso's [21:42] yes I am talking about plain shipit [21:43] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+bug/102974 [21:43] Launchpad bug 102974 in ubuntu-website "getubuntu download not proposing .torrent" [Medium,Confirmed] [21:44] wow ubot is cool! why don't you tell them how it is actually required in order for you to actually get it [21:47] its actually costs cannonical around $5-6 per cd [21:47] and about 2-3 months to ship it to the end requester [21:48] Really? wow! Thats extremely expensive, especially for such slow shipping. [21:49] the USPS does a discount on media like cd's i think. [21:49] yes [21:49] cannonical sent us around 400cds as we had requested [21:50] (they sends to distribute via localization team) [21:50] but we could not manage to get it out of customs [21:50] the shipment is now rotting in the custom house [21:50] :( [21:50] told you govt is not co-operating [21:51] yours or ours? [21:51] mine* [21:51] mine [21:51] why did they detain it? [21:51] custom charge.. [21:52] around $650 [21:52] after claiming its for non-commercial educational purpose [21:53] I don't think i understand... [21:53] initially it was around $1150 [21:53] you recieve ubuntu cd for free of charge right from cannonical? [21:53] How could it be so much? I've got a stack of 100 DVD's for less than 50$ [21:54] customs charge each cd $3 [21:54] who is going to explain that to govt ? [21:54] oh, i see. and canonical was supposed to pay that? [21:54] why? [21:55] it has no commercial value [21:55] why they will charge such high cost? [21:55] I can buy a cd in Bd for about 20 cents [21:56] some kind of weird tax/tariff. My government does it too, but usually to countries it doesn't like. [21:56] yes [21:56] any way [21:56] Really? I'm getting ripped off. Blank CD's are expensive here [21:56] he he [21:56] may be we should export then? [21:56] weird thing is a stack of 100 blank cd's costs exactly as much as 100 blank dvds [21:57] na funny thing is blank dvds cost even less [21:57] ( if I buy in bulk) [21:57] Well I think I'm starting to understand why you want a shipit for your own country [21:57] its 17cents for every 100 DVDs [21:57] if they just pay you the cost of the media, it's a workaround on the shipping cost and tariff [21:58] I mean 17cents if I buy 100 dvds [21:58] yes [21:58] that's why we want shipit-bangladesh [21:59] maybe this should go as a bug or a brainstorm idea suggesting shipit "factories" or something, so that shipping costs are reduced and to avoid taxes like that [21:59] even the couriar charge is not much say about 35 cents to the furthest corner [22:00] humm factories should be like sponsored [22:00] exactly [22:00] we are actually trying to survive (not expand) under the current situation [22:01] cannonical still pays for it either using donations or however it usually did. They could have a factory in each region that would make it cheaper [22:01] with no apparent volunteer and no sponsor its tough [22:02] I afraid then it will turn into money making procedure [22:02] many will claim they wan't to establish "factories" in their region [22:02] sorry I am actually a pecimist [22:03] yeah... i had considered that too. Still, it should be cheaper no matter what. [22:03] I only find problems rather finding solutions [22:03] that would show up when users complain they aren't getting disks [22:03] hopefully [22:03] at which point, canonical could probably sue hem [22:04] lets actually see what is happening [22:04] or at least investigate it [22:04] via who? [22:04] maybe it would turn into something like taxes where you have to ship in reciepts [22:04] cannonical can't physically check every objectionable factories [22:05] good point [22:06] lets see. we can start of then ask for it [22:06] maybe canonical could have actual employees that do this. [22:06] currently we are in reall need of volunteers [22:06] humm may be [22:06] ha ha in that terms I have one funny part [22:07] you know one of our FOSS advocate is microsoft employee [22:07] actually no i didn't [22:07] he is responsible to increase the sell of windows, but he hands his client ubuntu as a backup copy [22:07] that is really funny [22:08] that is funny [22:08] that sounds like a weird conflict of interest. I wonder what he actually believes. [22:09] he is actually into open source [22:09] I actually have to get going now. I'll be back in less than an hour [22:09] he is very prominent name in BD. [22:09] ok [22:09] weird how ms hasn't fired him yet [22:10] he he [22:10] he always make fun of MS [22:10] you come back I will tell you one of his fun [22:10] *funny story [22:10] if I am still around [22:42] shahriar, i'm back now [22:42] wb [22:44] thanks [22:45] welcome [22:45] so what were you going to say? [22:45] humm nothing much [22:46] just thinking what to do actually [22:46] how to change things around [22:46] any advise? [22:46] the whole cd thing? [22:46] nuh whole lunux thing [22:47] in what way you think its better off? [22:47] how to spread? [22:48] You said that DVD's are cheaper for you. Do you burn the DVD iso or the CD iso? The dvd.iso offers more packages, which would reduce the need for users to download packages. Obviously this means that they would be required to have a DVD drive. [22:48] cd iso, we don't have the guts to download the dvd [22:49] then again the cheap rate of DVDs are for bulk purchase [22:49] understood. How good is the typical hardware in your area? [22:49] its good enough basically [22:49] if you think of home pc now [22:50]