NCommanderI think its meeting time00:00
Riddellgood evening Friends00:01
Riddellwho's all here for a Kubuntu meeting?00:01
NCommanderShall I start the meeting?00:01
Daisuke_Idoi'm here to listen and absorb00:01
Riddellcouncil check00:01
RiddellNightrose, yuriy?00:02
twylightbI am here.00:02
* Nightrose waves00:02
Riddellgroovy, memberships first00:02
NCommanderRiddell, not going to use moobot?00:02
RiddellI don't know how00:02
MootBotMeeting started at 18:02. The chair is Riddell.00:02
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]00:02
* JontheEchidna apt-get moo's00:02
MootBotNCommander, There is already a meeting in progress.00:02
NCommanderDamn it00:02
RiddellTOPIC NCommander00:03
NCommanderRiddell, [TOPIC] NCommander00:03
Riddell[TOPIC] NCommander00:03
MootBotNew Topic:  NCommander00:03
RiddellNCommander: who are you and why do you like us?00:03
NCommanderI'm Michael Casadevall, I'm a firefighter in Rochester, and I like to help because KDE is the source of some rather interesting FTBFS (that, and I use it on and off as my default DE)00:03
apacheloggerwhat kind of usability is that?00:03
NCommanderapachelogger, what usability?00:04
apacheloggerNCommander: can I put *ubuntu on my iPhone already?00:04
NCommanderI also use KDE and Qt for some development I do on the side, so I have an interest in keeping it running00:04
NCommanderapachelogger, I can port it for you, but we're off topic00:04
RiddellNCommander: why do compile failures annoy you so much?00:05
* apachelogger finds that quite topicish00:05
NCommanderRiddell, it's not annoy, its fun to fix it. It's something I have a knack for00:05
NCommanderand its a good way to contribute since very few people know how to fix FTBFS, and even fewer like to00:05
RiddellNCommander: when did you first get into helping ubuntu?00:05
JontheEchidnayou sir, are a nobler man than I00:05
apacheloggerNCommander: do you expect to become a motu in the future?  and if you do, would you spend time reviewing other people's packages on revu? e.g. KDE packages?00:05
NCommanderpub   1024D/9DA2DA9B 2008-07-0600:06
NCommanderapachelogger, I plan to apply for MOTU at the end of september, and for core-dev sometime into intrepid+1's cycle00:06
NCommanderapachelogger, I always offer to help review packages on REVU, I was responsible for the first set of upgrades which gave REVU Launchpad intergration, and debrowned it00:06
NCommander(its got a Kubuntu-ish color style now)00:07
JontheEchidnayay for debrowning!00:07
apacheloggerfinal question00:07
apacheloggerNCommander: when does revu get oxygen icons?00:07
NCommanderapachelogger, it already has them00:07
yuriyNCommander: are you already an ubuntu or xubuntu member? (dunno if there is such a thing)00:08
apacheloggerNCommander: don't see them :(00:08
* NCommander can't get autocomplete to work00:08
NCommanderapachelogger, rainCT said he installed that patch, not sure if he actually rolled to production yet, I'll have to ask00:08
NCommanderyuriy, I'm an Xubuntu developer, and have a pending UUC application00:08
JontheEchidnaUbuntu Universe Contributor00:09
* apachelogger is supporting NCommander's membership00:09
* JontheEchidna needs to file one00:09
NightroseRiddell: pre-motu00:09
Riddellwhat's the difference again?00:09
seelesorry for the tardy00:09
JontheEchidnaRiddell: UUC is motu-in-training I think00:09
apacheloggerwe talke about that, didn't we00:09
apacheloggerhey seele00:09
apacheloggerRiddell: UUC is the developer's member status00:09
NCommanderOne of my largest goals for Kubuntu and Ubuntu in general is porting it to armel, and m68k :-)00:10
yuriywasn't enough beurocracy00:10
NCommanderyes, and I'm serious on that second one00:10
twylightyay synaptic00:10
Riddellah well, if we vote now he might not need it :)00:10
JontheEchidnaNCommander: motorola 68k?00:10
NCommanderJontheEchidna, m68k :-)00:10
NCommanderI'll just need 30 or so emulators to get the build power up00:10
NightroseNCommander: any advocacy you are doing besides all the great FTBS fixing?00:10
Riddell+1 from me for lots of useful fixes00:10
NCommanderI should also note I'm a Debian m68k developer, and a current NM00:10
NCommanderI'm also a Debian hurd developer00:11
JontheEchidna+1, We need more low-level dudes in Kubuntu00:11
NCommanderI've done some kernel hacking, and gcc love00:11
NCommanderand ScottK has learned to corner me for fixing broken libtool and autofunk00:11
Riddellyuriy, Nightrose, seele?00:11
yuriyNCommander: done any of your own packaging?00:11
seeleRiddell: i don't know what we are talking about00:11
NCommanderyuriy, codeblocks, pangomm, both new00:12
Riddellseele: NCommander's membership00:12
NightroseNCommander: any advocacy you are doing besides all the great FTBS fixing?00:12
NCommanderyuriy, the entire xfce 4.6 alpha 0 release00:12
NCommanderyuriy, (22 packages)00:12
Nightrose(repeated since it was missed it seems)00:12
NCommanderyuriy, a whole lot of GNOME updates00:12
NCommanderAnd a load of fixes for kdelibs, kdenetwork (ported it to lpia and amd64), and koffice200:13
NCommanderI have 36 uploads not counting 20-30 backports00:13
seeleNCommander: do you know c++?00:13
* Nightrose feels ignored but gives a +1 anyway for low-level work noone else seems to be too keen on00:14
NCommanderC, C++, x86 ASM, avr ASM, m68k ASM, ada, java, python, some perl, PHP, some C#00:14
NCommanderVisual Basic00:14
seele+1 from me if you fix system settings menu :)00:14
NCommander(maybe, not sure if I still remember it)00:14
NCommanderI am working to fix the GNAT issues in Hardy ATM00:14
yuriy+1 for lots of important fixes00:14
NCommander(I think I scared -sru off, no one ever tried to upload 12 packages in a single go)00:14
yuriydespite mentioning Visual Basic ;)00:14
Riddellwelcome to membership NCommander00:15
NCommanderyuriy, I program in real mode x86 ASM00:15
NCommanderyuriy, I know no fear :-)00:15
Riddellany other memberships tonight?00:15
yuriywelcome NCommander00:15
blizzzcongratz NCommander00:15
NCommanderyay at sonicmctails@kubuntu.com!00:15
apacheloggerwe don't take kindly to .com00:16
Riddellapachelogger had some agenda items00:16
apacheloggerRiddell: let's do UDS/FOSSCamp first00:16
Riddellif that makes sense00:16
Riddellwho wants to come to UDS?00:16
Riddellwe have had lots of great contibutors doing good stuff this cycle00:17
NCommanderI do, but I can't make the date00:17
* apachelogger can't either00:17
Riddelland it would be great to have lots of you there00:17
NCommanderI might be able to do FOSSCamp however00:17
Riddellcanonical typically sponsors five or so Kubuntu people00:17
Riddellso don't be shy00:17
yuriywhat are the dates for FOSSCamp + UDS?00:17
coreymon77hi guys00:17
coreymon77sorry im late00:17
NCommanderRiddell, I can get sponsorship on both through Xubuntu, so I don't need to take a spot from the Kubuntu team00:17
seeleyuriy: december 5-6 for fosscamp, the following week for uds00:18
Riddellthe process is different this time in that you have to nominate yourself and fill in the form thingy00:18
Riddellwhich currently requires you to find things you're interested in on brainstorm00:18
yuriyah so Dec. 8-12 for UDS00:18
NCommanderGrumpy Groundhog00:18
RiddellI'm told you can apply with specs and non-brainstorm topic ideas but I havn't had a response from jono to confirm that00:19
Riddellbut we'll sort that out00:19
yuriythat's better than what I thought, I thought it was the week after, which is finals00:19
NCommanderRiddell, I'd like to submit the through on KDE 4.1 on lpia; ATM, it exists, but its really not in a state great for netbooks00:19
RiddellNCommander: go for it00:19
apacheloggerRiddell: I guess you'll send a mail clearifying this to the list?00:19
NCommanderThe biggest hold up is we had loads of FTBFS on lpia which finally got cleared up00:20
Riddellapachelogger: clarifying which?00:20
NCommanderRiddell, BTW, who adds me to Kubuntu-members?00:20
apacheloggerRiddell: what stuff can be used for the sponsoring applicatoin00:20
seeleRiddell: on the process00:20
RiddellNCommander: me00:20
Riddellapachelogger: I'd like to think jono would00:20
seeleRiddell: he didnt send a mail to start with00:21
apacheloggerfair enough :)00:21
seeleRiddell: so i guess only people who read his blog are invited00:21
RiddellI'd also hope that he or jcastro will let us know the process for FOSSCamp sponsorships00:21
Riddellif there's suggestions of KDE people for that I'd like to hear00:21
apacheloggerseele: mark mentioned it in his jackalope mail I think00:21
yuriyI'd like to go, but don't think I'd be able to skip the last week of class for it, plus I don't know what discussion I would lead or how much I'll actually be able to contribute in the next 7 months00:22
Riddellseele: or in the case of FOSSCamp, facebook :)00:22
seeleapachelogger: ah well then everyone must know by now00:22
* seele hides00:22
NCommanderapachelogger, anyway, if your interested in darwin-arm (iPhone) port of Ubuntu, its quite fessible00:22
apacheloggerRiddell: you should get aseigo to fosscamp and make him a Kubuntu user again ;-)00:23
Riddellif you want me to look at your application text I'd be happy to do that00:23
apacheloggerprobably also god discussion partner for NCommander about small form factor devices00:23
RiddellI'll probably poke some people later in the week00:23
Riddelllet's move on00:23
NCommanderWell, for small form factor devices, we need mips and armel ports00:23
NCommanderSince most small form are one of those two00:23
seeleRiddell: it would be helpful that if we dont have to do brainstorm ideas that we have an email to send our "app" to00:23
nixternalhey hey, I am here...my train was a bit late tonight00:24
seeleRiddell: jjesse said there is a 1000 character limit in the textbox00:24
Riddellseele: yeah, I'll talk to scott when he recovers from illness00:24
NCommanderI'm willing to bootstrap the port if possible if someone can scrounge up fast hardware00:24
* NCommander has a pitifully slow ARM box00:24
Riddellapachelogger: want to do you agenda items?00:24
* apachelogger pokes JontheEchidna00:24
apacheloggerah well, my agenda partner got lost00:25
apacheloggerThe old kubuntu-team is going to become kubuntu-bugs00:25
NCommanderapachelogger, as an aside, thanks for random :-P00:25
apacheloggerNCommander: you're welcome :P00:25
apacheloggerThe list kubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com is being updated with latest and greatest KDE bugs (by now all of core KDE 4).00:26
apacheloggerI'll announce it on the list and my blog and the channel when kubuntu-bugs is ready for joiners.00:26
NCommanderapachelogger, I'd like to help beta test kubuntu-bugs setup and such00:27
apacheloggerNCommander: not mutch to test really ;-)00:27
* NCommander has a few things to bring up once apachelogger is done00:28
apacheloggerJontheEchidna is doing a lot of work on bug triage, which makes me think that we all should spend a bit more time in malone and triage KDE bugs. A good triaged bug with a appropriate priority and upstram bug watch can help us improve the quality for Intrepid a lot compared to previous series.00:28
* JontheEchidna is back00:28
* apachelogger tells JontheEchidna to take over00:28
JontheEchidnaCurrently fully-triaged modules in Malone/Launchpad include:00:29
Riddellok, anything else?00:29
JontheEchidnaWhat we really need help in are:00:29
JontheEchidna-kdebase, though it is getting better00:29
yuriyoh wow00:29
* Riddell seconds wow00:29
NCommanderas an aside, I recommend setting up ccache if you are going to work on kdepim due to the build time of that beast00:29
apacheloggerVolunteers please poke JontheEchidna or me for help or introduction.00:30
NightroseJontheEchidna++ apachelogger++00:30
nixternalbah ccache :P00:30
JontheEchidnaMost of the -kde4 packages have had all of the bugs that are still relevant have been moved to their normal packages00:30
apacheloggerDevelopers should take a look at the fully triaged modules and nominate stuff for Intrepid where it makes sense.00:30
nixternaldebuild -nc && dh_install --list-missing --sourcedir=debian/tmp00:30
apacheloggerComments about bugs?00:31
NCommandernixternal, why list missing, why not fail-missing00:31
Riddellhave you noticed much in the way of apport bugs since we turned it on for KDE?00:31
nixternalyou get the same thing00:31
NCommandernixternal, fail-missing makes sure you properly add install lines for everything00:31
Riddellahem, topic00:32
apacheloggerRiddell: Not really.00:32
nixternal--list-missing has yet to fail me now in the many many years of using it00:32
apacheloggerHowever, apport has a problem with retracing.00:32
Riddellapachelogger: I wonder if that means nobody is using alphas or if KDE 4 just doesn't crash00:32
JontheEchidnaRiddell: apport has been failing to retrace lately00:32
JontheEchidnaa lot00:32
apacheloggerIt appears to me that apport can't retrace a crash if it was detected in a wrong binary package.00:32
apacheloggere.g. a crash is filed against phonon while it is happening in libxine, there is a good chance retracing is going to fail.00:33
apacheloggerRiddell: Know anything about this?00:33
Riddellpitti is the dude for apport details00:33
apacheloggerWe'll do some investigation on this and poke him if it really seems to be the wrong binary package that caues the retrace to fail.00:34
yuriyso we'll need to bug him about that (no pun intended)00:34
james_ware you seeing it for Hardy or Intrepid?00:34
apacheloggerNCommander: apport retraces crashes on LP if the reporting system was missing debugging symbols00:34
apacheloggerjames_w: Intrepid00:34
NCommanderapachelogger, ah, that sounds about right00:34
james_wapachelogger: does it set "apport-failed-retrace" or they just don't get looked at?00:35
yuriyjames_w: it does set it00:35
james_wah, ok. Maybe some KDE-related dbgsym package is un-installable. pitti or seb128 will be able to investigate00:36
james_wI've seen plenty of bugs get retraced in the last couple of days, so it's not a global problem I don't think00:36
Riddellnext item?00:37
apacheloggerupgrade testing00:37
RiddellI plan to do lots of that next week00:37
* vorian comes in late00:37
yuriyis there an upgrade path for people with -kde4 packages installed?00:37
nixternalI can attest that the upgrade was a mess, but that was more than likely due to KDE 3 and 4 being installed on my machine00:37
apacheloggerI'd like to invite everyone to do upgrade testing hardy -> intrepid00:37
NCommanderyuriy, we could make the path with a LOT of virtual packages00:38
apacheloggerI'd like to have as many reports on this as possible00:38
apacheloggerwrong configuration updates in KDE 3 -> KDE 400:38
Riddellyuriy: that should be handled by the distupgrade tool but only for the last few days00:38
yuriyreplaces/conflicts doesn't handle stuff like that?00:38
mhbapachelogger: I'll try to add a few00:38
apacheloggeror file conflicts in packages00:38
apacheloggerjust anything you got00:38
NCommanderyuriy, maybe00:38
apacheloggerAs of today VirtualBox should work with Intrepid again.00:38
nixternalthe best thing to do is backup your stuff, go out to tty, kill kdm, rm -rf ~/.kde*, --purge remove all the old KDE stuff and then do an upgrade, then install kde400:39
vorianvirtual packages will be the way to go00:39
Riddellnixternal: it really shouldn't be like that00:39
apacheloggerI suggest installing a plain KDE 3 hardy and a plain KDE 4 hardy, creating VM snapshots of both, and then test scenarios00:39
nixternalRiddell: it was last week when I tried on a machine at work00:39
vorianapachelogger: good plan00:39
apacheloggerTo speed up package download I can suggest apt-cacher (proxy for APT)00:39
nixternalapachelogger: that is a smoke test plan setup for failure though, as nobody is using plain this or that00:39
apacheloggerYou can find a howto for it @ help.ubuntu.com00:39
apacheloggernixternal: Plain as a basis to revert to00:40
nixternalI recommend setting up virtual box, and then installing everything you have locally, then copying ~/ to vbox and then try00:40
yuriyand first plain has to work before more complicated stuff can00:40
apacheloggerPlain works pretty well from what I have seen00:40
apacheloggerupgrading recommends of kubuntu-desktop doesn't work yet, but otherwise it should be ok00:41
apacheloggerI'll try to write a short guide on upgrade testing within the next few days.00:41
james_wyou might be interested in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2008-August/026017.html00:41
apacheloggerComments on upgrade testing?00:41
nixternalI would rather see a much steeper plan for testing than a basic one...I think in the past the basic tests have come back to bite us at times00:42
apacheloggerjames_w: thanks, bookmarked :)00:42
voriani have no problem doing it on an actual partition00:42
Riddellon a related topic, we got the ok for 8.04 to 9.04 upgrades this afternoon00:42
apacheloggerAnother important test case it o actually install on your PC/Laptop00:42
Riddellthere's a bit of thinking into how to make that actually happen, but it should work00:43
apacheloggerRiddell: Cool :)00:43
apacheloggerWhen you install Intrepid on your PC/Laptop give the application a fancy use case test.00:43
apacheloggerLike take your Laptop to all sorts of places with all sorts of different printer setup ans try to hook it up.00:44
nixternalapachelogger: that is something we need to come up with...we need to come up with a bunch of use cases and smoke testing standards00:44
nixternalhow many here have been doing any sort of regression testing?00:44
apacheloggerOr get a clean profile and try using features you normaly wouldn't use.00:44
apacheloggernixternal: Do you have time to write something?00:44
* apachelogger can certainly document the scenarios he did so far.00:45
seelebefore we hit the next topic should we go through the todo list?00:45
nixternalapachelogger: I could make some...I am finalizing use cases and smoke test plans for a work project and I see how much of a difference they make when it comes to QA and bug triage00:45
yuriynext topic is jaunty? then yes00:45
nixternalI have a topic to add as well, actually a super call-for-help00:45
apacheloggeryuriy: last it is00:46
nixternalI will do that last but I will need everyones help probably00:46
apacheloggerAny more comments on upgrade testing?00:46
seeleso since we were talking about testing.. what is left on the ToDo list?  what wont make it?00:46
vorianwho's doing the test cases?00:46
apacheloggernixternal and me00:46
yuriyseele: something you're concerned about on the todo list?00:46
nixternalvorian: they need to be established first... seele, you have any UI test cases I could use as a basis?00:46
apacheloggerIn fact everyone could document what they are doing00:47
nixternalthe UI ones I am using at work are web based cases00:47
voriannixternal: yes, that's what i meant, sorry00:47
seeleyuriy: no, i was just wonder where we were00:47
seelethere hasn't been a complete go through of the todo for a while afaik00:47
seelei know JontheEchidna had gone through some parts00:47
Riddellhttps://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo seems fairly up to date00:47
NCommanderWhat's the status on ubinity's KDE4 port?00:47
NCommanderI dunno if someone started working on this or not00:47
nixternalubiquity you mean?00:48
NCommanderer, yeah00:48
RiddellNCommander: not heard of any change00:48
NCommanderI looked and played with the source00:48
nixternalhaha, had me confused for a second00:48
JontheEchidnaseele: it should be pretty much up-to-date00:48
NCommanderThe port should be straightforward enough00:48
nixternalNCommander: the ubiquity code is very easy00:48
RiddellNCommander: yes it would be pretty quick00:48
NCommanderIt's a single file that needs a rewrite00:48
yuriya couple things on there.. userconfig unfortunately I haven't had time for00:48
Riddellnot a rewrite00:48
seeleRiddell: what's left with system-config-printer-kde?00:48
yuriykcmrandr I am concerned about00:48
yuriyit does _work_ to an extent00:48
Riddellseele: lots I'm afraid00:48
apacheloggerNCommander: just porting from Q* to K*00:48
Riddellseele: lots of features missing, lots of usability stuff to do, lots of code tidying to do00:48
NCommanderI can't find much in terms of docs on python-kde400:49
yuriybut it's buggy and I haven't seen any way to configure dual head00:49
apacheloggerNCommander: like using a KProcess instead of a QProcess00:49
Riddellseele: the basics work and it's in upstream KDE for 4.200:49
nixternalI have to admit, KDE 4 + xrandr on a dual monitor setup == flawless for me...I totally love how I can change the wallpaper on each monitor...let me see another de or windows do that :)00:49
yuriyNCommander: there's documentation at reverbankcomputing00:49
yuriyNCommander: and mostly you can just use api.kde.org00:49
NCommanderyuriy, link?00:49
NCommanderI'll take a second look at it00:50
Riddellyuriy: that now includes sime's pykde api docs00:50
seeleRiddell: so it just needs tested?00:50
yuriyoh, well then ^^00:50
Riddellseele: testing is nice but mostly it needs more developer time00:50
goatsocksNCommander: http://techbase.kde.org/Development/Languages/Python00:50
seeleack, so there's broken stuff?  or just missing stuff?00:50
NCommanderDo we want to remove raw Qt support from Ubiquity in favor or KDE4, or support both if possible00:50
Riddellseele: just missing00:50
seelewell that's better than broken.. :-/00:51
RiddellNCommander: let's do this out of meeting00:51
NCommanderah, ok00:51
Riddellwe've had less coding team members this cycle (but lots more packaging going on) so stuff from KubuntuIntrepidDefaults remains undone00:52
apachelogger*adds new agenda item about that*00:52
apacheloggerOh right.00:53
nixternalRiddell: I can do some coding00:53
NCommander[IDEA] Work on KubuntuIntrepidDefaults coding00:53
MootBotIDEA received:  Work on KubuntuIntrepidDefaults coding00:53
nixternalC++ or Python, your choice :)00:53
apacheloggerWe don't have a mountconfig port on the way, do we?00:53
seeleis smarter here?00:53
NCommanderI did the Xfce 4.6 exit dialog, I can maybe work on doing it on KDE, but I honestly don't use Qt so my basis is limited00:53
apacheloggerI'd like to suggest mountmanager as replacement00:53
apacheloggerseele: he is in bed00:53
RiddellI always think of mountconfig has being a feature failure, users shouldn't have to care about fstab00:54
seeleis kvkbd supposed to be an access tool or onscreen keyboard for tablets?00:54
nixternalseele: access tool00:54
goatsocksapachelogger: the mountmanager UI is really bad, looks like it was designed by an engineer: http://img.flashtux.org/img13269103725x67eec7f8.png00:54
Riddellseele: accesilibility primarily00:54
nixternalI think it is dead though, I haven't spoken to the dev in a while now00:54
mhbRiddell: people should be able to mount their networked discs, though00:54
apacheloggergoatsocks: well, I share Riddell's opinion on fstab stuff00:54
goatsocksapachelogger: not to mention it uses qt4 but somehow doesn't pick up my kde style or qt4 style, and uses its own fonts and plastik00:54
seelenixternal: it got ported and smarter asked me to look at it the other day00:54
Riddellmhb: we have KDE ways of doing that00:54
apacheloggergoatsocks: doesn't here, might be sudo related00:55
Riddellfor home network use cases anyway00:55
mhbRiddell: do you?00:55
seeleyou can do that through Dolphin, can't you?00:55
mhbRiddell: well then they never were well presented, I guess.00:55
apacheloggerseele: network in the sidebar ;-)00:55
Riddellmhb: no I think that could be done better00:55
mhbRiddell: and of course, having a KDE-only way is silly, and should not be preferred.00:55
nixternalhehe, I see I am not the only one using skulpture theme00:56
seeleapachelogger: yes, i dont use it, i just thought it did exist00:56
mhbpeople also use non-KDE apps, like OO, keep that in mind, please.00:56
goatsockshotplug mounting is best handled by either kwikdisk (shipped with kdeutils) or the device notifier plasmoid00:56
yuriymhb: we'll have to fix that ;)00:56
apacheloggermhb: last I checked ooo supports most of the slaves somewhat00:56
apacheloggerlike smb:/ seems to be working IIRC00:57
Riddellapachelogger: who's advocating that we include mount manager?00:57
apacheloggerme I guess ;-)00:58
Riddellapachelogger: what's your rationale?00:58
mhbyuriy: I'm not sure we should - I wouldn't like a one-colour world00:58
apacheloggerWe don't have a mount manager right now00:58
Riddellapachelogger: but what's the usecase for you?00:58
nixternalsure we do, it's called the user :P00:58
nixternalI think everyone needs to learn udev rules00:58
apacheloggerRiddell: Advanced users might want to fiddle with their fstab, we should give them a tool to do that.00:59
seeleapachelogger: advanced users would edit /etc/fstab?00:59
apacheloggermost likely, pimp their settings01:00
apacheloggerAlso mountmanger got an "easy" ISO mount pluign01:00
nixternalseele: nah, udev rules..that is true pimping and my new best friend01:00
yuriyapachelogger: what happened to kiso?01:00
nixternalI have written so many damn udev rules now for our appliances at work, that I absolutely love it01:00
apacheloggeryuriy: KDE 301:00
yuriyno port?01:00
apacheloggerDidn't see one so far01:00
apacheloggerAnyway, mountmanager got problems.01:00
apacheloggerAs goatsocks said the GUI isn't exactly user friendly.01:01
mhbMy opinion is that even though a mount manager per se is not necessary, we should not really just use some KDE-only technology and feel done with it.01:01
apacheloggerAnd some weird documentation issues01:01
nixternalmhb: what other technology do you recommend?01:01
nixternaland what would you think about making a Qt fork or port of it?01:02
mhbnixternal: any system-wide stuff that works for mixed systems, the one every non-radical user has01:02
Riddellapachelogger: I can confirm the UI strangeness, looking at it01:02
mhba bit of this, a byte of that01:02
goatsocksgnome uses some harebrained mounter based on fuse, never works01:02
nixternalgoatsocks: I got it to work once!01:02
mhbnixternal: I prefer mounting to KIO slaves.01:03
apacheloggerRiddell: Maybe we should consider it on a long term. Get in touch with upstream, propose some improvements and see whether he wants to cooperate01:03
mhbnixternal: if that's what you meant. Mounting is system-wide, KIO slaves only for KDE apps.01:03
yuriymhb: I think we should do the best with the technology we have rather than trying to cater to the lowest common denominator. but this is getting off topic.01:04
nixternalmhb: +1 on that idea honestly, but unfortunately unless there is something out there already, I don't see the time to implement such a thing this release01:04
* apachelogger wants to note that we should focus on QA for intrepid mostly01:04
Riddellapachelogger: that sounds good, I'm not terribly enthusiastic about it currently as a tool with notable UI problems on top of being unconvinced of the usecase01:05
apacheloggerOk, I'll contact upstream and target 9.04 as possible inclusion series.01:06
Riddellnext item?01:06
seeleplanning for intrepid01:06
Nightrosemove to and copy to in dolphin01:06
seelewhat are our goals for intrepid and what would we like to accomplish01:06
* apachelogger finds that a bit early really :P01:07
* seele falls over01:07
Nightroseseele: mind if I do the dolphin stuff now - it will be  quick01:07
seeleoh, i didnt see it on the list sorry01:07
Nightroseit is not there sorry01:07
RiddellNightrose: go go01:07
apacheloggerNightrose can't edit the wiki either :P01:07
Nightroseso sealne proposed to enable "move to" and "copy to" in the right click menu by default in dolphin01:07
NightroseI think that is a really good idea01:07
Nightroseright now you have to enable it in the settings01:08
Nightroseand it will probably go unnoticed by a lot of users01:08
NightroseI loved that feature in kde 301:08
Riddellfile management through right click menu never seems very user friendly to me01:08
Nightrosethe advantage is that you don't need to have the source and destination dir open01:08
seelewhy was it taken out or was it not in dolphin by default?01:08
Nightrosebut only the source dir01:08
Nightrosewhich i think is great01:09
* apachelogger tests01:09
Nightroseseele: it was default in konqui01:09
seeleNightrose: yes i know01:09
Nightroseno idea why it is not default in doplhin now01:09
seeledo you know why it wasn't enabled in Dolphin?01:09
apacheloggerIt makes sense for advanced users IMHO01:10
nixternalactually, the "copy to" feature is used a lot by newer users unfamiliar with the command line01:10
apacheloggerNot for the target audience though.01:10
nixternalwe just did a test and that was one thing they missed in gnome I heard01:10
apacheloggernixternal: What does 'new users' mean in this context?01:10
Riddellwe should probably ask Peter Penz for his view on it01:11
seelei'd want to ask the dolphin devs to see why it wasnt in there to start with01:11
NightroseI will talk to sealne01:11
Nightroseand try to get in touch with Peter01:11
Riddellit's more popular than I expected amonst kubuntu developers anyway01:11
apacheloggerdevelopers aren't good users though ;-)01:12
seeleare those devs using dolphin or still using konq as a file manager?01:12
* Nightrose is using dolphin all the time now01:12
nixternalapachelogger: they weren't developers, they were your typical emailers, web browsers, and photo album people01:12
Riddelldolphin here01:12
JontheEchidnaI never used Konq01:12
nixternalit was put on by UIC I think just recently01:12
NCommanderdolphin for me01:12
NCommander(when running KDE)01:12
seelenixternal: who did the study?  twidale?01:13
JontheEchidnaDolphin ftw01:13
nixternalI use yakuake as a file manager :)01:13
NCommanderkonq always felt slow and bloated01:13
blizzzkonsole in first line, dolphin then01:13
* apachelogger rembmers that a lot of people complained about switching to dolphin in KDE3 :P01:13
nixternalseele: dunno who did it, I just know a few of the students who were apart of it01:13
nixternaland twidale does sound familiar to me01:13
Nightroseapachelogger: because it was not as great as it is now01:13
JontheEchidnaKonq always felt like there was too much there for movign around my files01:13
Riddelllet's move on01:13
blizzzwell, on my machine at work with kde3 i use konquerer01:13
seelenixternal: big time IS researcher at uiuc who did some of the first work on open source usability ;)01:13
apacheloggerjaunty it is01:14
RiddellI suggest KDE 4.201:14
Nightrosenext one01:14
seelewhat's the cut off to know which point release we can use?01:14
apacheloggerrelease date01:14
seelewe should have at least 4.2.1, there are going to be a lot of changes in 4.201:14
apacheloggerwhich would be 4.2.2 I think01:14
Riddellwe can generally go with the latest one thanks to the nice 6 month release schedule01:15
apacheloggerI think we should focus on QA mostly though01:15
NightroseRiddell: you should mention that in the release schedule thread on k-c-d btw01:15
Nightrosepeople were asking if it is worth it to stick to it01:15
seelewhat are some important things we didnt get to for intrepid that we should plan for in jaunty?01:15
RiddellNightrose: yes, I will when I get round to reading e-mail01:15
JontheEchidnaI think Jaunty should be about taming this KDE 4.1 tiger we've made01:16
seelePrinting and Adept are on my list of things we should focus on in terms of software01:16
JontheEchidnabringing it out of the jungle through QA "training"01:16
seelethey both need love01:16
Riddellyes, it should be a KDE 4 fit for your parents01:16
Riddellreally finish system-config-printer-kde01:16
apacheloggermost stuff is upstream I think01:16
JontheEchidnaGreat QA will also help upstream projects like Adept01:17
apacheloggerark context menus is a very itching issue, a lot of users are missing that01:17
Riddellor look at PackageKit again01:17
* JontheEchidna is missing ark context menus01:17
seelewhat about a samba UI?  that was an ubuntu brainstorm idea with a lot of votes01:17
Riddellseele: for configuration?01:17
JontheEchidnathere is a samba kcm module which is a bit buggy01:18
apacheloggerlow priority IMHO01:18
nixternalsamba UI? wasn't there something called swat for that?01:18
Riddellseele: or just simple file sharing?  we did have a spec for that from last UDS01:18
blizzzwhat about smb4k?01:18
seeleRiddell: we did?01:18
nixternalsmb4k sooks01:18
nixternalit is constantly eating peoples sudoers files01:18
apacheloggerJontheEchidna: not as much as knetworkconf01:18
Riddellseele: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuFilesharing01:18
nixternalbut smb4k makes it easy to steal from fellow students who are using windows at the university :P01:18
apacheloggernixternal: why does it mess with that anyway?01:18
JontheEchidnaapachelogger: you basically can't give any users samba accounts01:18
JontheEchidnastill less broken than knetworkconf :P01:19
apacheloggerdoesn't that work out of the box?01:19
apacheloggeri.e. every system user == samba user?01:19
nixternalapachelogger: I have no clue...I fixed it once upon a time and then I heard it came back01:19
apacheloggermakes more sense to mee than a configuration UI01:19
apacheloggeralso less work01:20
Riddellautomatic codec install would be nice01:20
apacheloggerRiddell: did you talk with eean about that?01:20
* slangasek notes that installing libpam-smbpass in intrepid should now magick your pam config to auto-create users01:20
Riddellapachelogger: briefly I think, didn't get much of an outcome as I mind01:20
seeleok, so samba yes or no?01:21
Riddellseele: is it different from that Filesharing spec?01:21
apacheloggerNightrose: could you sound whether eean can get us automagic codec installation?01:21
* yuriy ate dinner and forgot this meeting was still going on01:21
seeleRiddell: no now i remembered we talked about this01:21
Riddellheliocastro was also talking about codec installing today01:21
yuriywhat are we on?01:22
seeleso ok.. filesharing yes or no.. whatever you want to call it01:22
Riddellyuriy: jaunty topics01:22
Nightroseapachelogger: i could try but...01:22
Nightroseeasy sharing would be cool imho01:22
apacheloggerseele: yes .... without having read the spec I want to add a "in reasonable time effort" to that ;-)01:22
Riddellseele: it's quite a large chunk of essentially upstream coding, it's something I think we're missing a lot but I doubt I'll find time01:22
apacheloggerIMHO avahi is the way to go01:22
seeleok, so that is a no01:23
nixternalavahi only works on macs01:23
Riddellunless someone actively volunteers01:23
nixternalI have yet to have a positive avahi experience01:23
NCommanderavadi is multicast DNS, right?01:23
apacheloggeryour avahi setup sucks to b ehonest01:23
apacheloggertook me a bit of debugging to get kepas running01:23
apacheloggerNCommander: yes01:23
NCommanderIs there any reason why we simply don't use the open Apple Zeroconf?01:24
nixternalRiddell: I have a future plan on creating a killer file sharing app that uses our distributed storage network01:24
NCommanderWhich I find works out of the box even on Windows?01:24
* NCommander has never had avahi work period01:24
apacheloggerNCommander: it is that01:24
nixternalsimilar in concept to waula or whatever it is called, but with coorporate backing and a hell of a lot more speed, experience, stability, and love :)01:24
NCommanderDoesn't seem like it; I've compiled mDNSResponsor from source, and I don't remember having those issues01:24
Riddellthere may be choices for K-Menu replacements in jaunty timeframe01:25
Riddellwe should evaluate them01:25
JontheEchidnaLancelot ftw01:25
apacheloggerRaptor ftw01:25
JontheEchidnaRaptor did look kool01:25
apacheloggerok, I might be biased there01:25
* Nightrose thinks lancelot is nice but switched back to kick-off01:25
apacheloggerRaptor is pretty much an oxygen child :P01:25
apacheloggerMore thoughts on jaunty?01:26
seeleRaptor doesnt exist yet, has Ruphy begun coding it yet?01:26
apacheloggerseele: he keeps telling me "soon" ;-)01:26
apacheloggerfor half a year now01:26
Riddellthat doesn't sound promising01:26
JontheEchidnaOnce Lancelot gets some polish it should rock even harder01:26
apacheloggerwell, I trust in the oxygen team01:26
apacheloggerbut we will see01:26
JontheEchidnathan it does now01:26
seeleRiddell: did your soc student finish the printer ui?01:27
Riddellseele: not that I've noticed01:27
Riddellthere was a UI there but I don't think applications have been talking to it01:27
* apachelogger just forgot what he wanted to write01:28
apacheloggerAnyway, more comments on jaunty?01:29
seeleRiddell: is the printer config just getting finished and done with or is there UI work to do?01:29
seeleit doesn't look so great right now, but i dont know if its because most of it is missing or whate01:29
Riddellseele: system-config-printer-kde?  there's still your UI spec that I'd like to implement (or have someone implement)01:30
seelehmm.. ok.  we should probably look at that again at UDS01:30
* nixternal can't wait for UDS01:31
seelewe had a UI spec for the GRUB editor, but it changed significantly when Artemis_Fowl took over01:31
apacheloggerWhat is the QA status of kgrubeditor?01:31
seeleno one has reported any badness01:31
Riddellworks for me01:31
seeleall minor bugs/ui annoyances have been fixed except for two things workflow related01:32
NCommanderseems to work fine here01:32
seelewe've deferred it to post intrepid01:32
seelei think there are three things on the TODO list, but they are features and wont get in01:32
apacheloggerdepends on the features really, but I'd like to focus on QA really01:32
seeleimproving the password management workflow, figuring out what to do about the Tools page, and improving the OS information page01:32
seeleyeah, i think it is good as it is and there isnt a need to try and rush the other stuff in01:33
Riddellshould it go into upstream KDE for 4.2?01:33
apacheloggerRiddell: depends in Artemis_Fowl wants to01:33
seeleRiddell: yes, but i would like to fix password management before we do that01:33
apacheloggerit certainly would make sense IMHO01:34
Riddellright, we can suggest it to him when he next appears01:34
seeleapachelogger: i'm pretty sure he does01:34
seeleapachelogger: he converted it to a kcm so it could be01:34
apacheloggerI suggested him to go extragear and target inclusion in kdeadmin. He preferred moving to Bzr.01:35
seeleah, technical stuff i know nothing about01:35
* apachelogger continues with more technical stuff01:35
apachelogger4.1.1 live CDs01:35
seeleit would be great if we could get one big app like that done a cycle01:35
seeleprinting is the target for jaunty as long as Riddell doesnt tire of me01:36
JontheEchidnaI saw one review that accredited systemsettings to suse01:36
JontheEchidnawe need to be more vocal about our upstream contributions :P01:36
apacheloggerWe need to be more vocal about everything01:36
apacheloggerryanakca: around?01:36
seeleJontheEchidna: i think most of the modules were written by suse people01:36
apacheloggerLet's move on.01:37
ryanakcaapachelogger: yes... oh. Hmm. Looks like there was a meeting...01:37
apacheloggerryanakca: want to say something about promotion and marketing?01:37
* apachelogger doesn't have a plan regarding kubuntu marketing yet.01:37
JontheEchidnaour current marketing strategy is screenie01:38
apacheloggerthat is no strategy :P01:38
ryanakcaNor do I so far... I can try to think up of a few ideas and then I can poke whoever is interested on the weekend...01:38
nixternalI know someone with a marketing background that has been more than willing to help, but never got the nod01:38
Riddellwell we can discuss it at UDS01:38
ryanakcaWebsite tasks are always open for those interested... that would be promotional :)01:39
* apachelogger is not at UDS :P01:39
* ryanakca isn't either :/01:39
apacheloggernixternal: oh01:39
nixternaluds still in december?01:39
Riddellnixternal: yes01:39
seelewho is planning to app to UDS?01:39
apacheloggerryanakca: maybe we should do a meeting regarding kubuntu marketing?01:39
nixternalapachelogger: ya, I only have 2 degrees in business and marketing...did marketing research and analysis for the chicago cubs01:39
apacheloggerthat emunkki is interessted in joining as well01:39
nixternalmaybe that's the reason they can't win the world series :P01:39
vorianI'm hopihng to make it to uds01:40
vorianhoping even01:40
apacheloggernixternal: do you have time for a meeting at the weekdn?01:40
vorianwhy not get with the loco guys to figure out some grass roots type markeitng01:40
nixternalI am not hoping, I know I am already going to UDS just as soon as I get my sponshorship email...already have the time off01:40
nixternalapachelogger: the weekends work best for me01:40
nixternalearly weekends, ie. 1300 UTC01:40
apacheloggerryanakca: does that work for you?01:41
ryanakcaapachelogger: Yes... any time during the day this weekend (EST) should be good for me, shall we pick a time in -devel, or is the meeting over?01:41
apacheloggerwell, let's continue this in -devel01:41
apacheloggerI have more to talk about here :P01:41
JontheEchidnaya, this meeting's running a bit long01:41
NCommanderThere was one pointy for jackalope I wanted to bring up01:41
* NCommander can't spell tonight01:41
nixternalwell hurry up, I need to go meet my girlyfriend for dinner some time tonight :P01:41
* apachelogger pokes NCommander later01:41
apacheloggerThe precious german kubuntu doods started remastering the KDE 4 hardy CD with KDE 4.1.101:42
apacheloggervorian is working on an amd64 version01:42
apacheloggerWe certainly need some testing, please poke me if you got some spare time.01:42
nixternalI need to get a new computer as my main dev/testing machine is dead01:43
apacheloggerOne last thing.01:43
apacheloggerDo you think it makes sense to recruit @ fairs?01:44
vorianoh yes01:44
apacheloggerRiddell mentioned earlier that we were running low on application devs this cycle01:44
nixternalyou know how many people I have gotten involved through fairs? a lot!01:44
apacheloggerWe should enforce this a bit then01:44
nixternalbut at the same time, I have been to fairs with jono and jorge, and they tend to try and convert me to that g thing01:44
apacheloggerThe german doods are at 5 fairs a year I think.01:45
Riddellmy first expo was on a KDE stand with Jono01:45
vorianOlF will be a good front for Kubuntu01:45
apacheloggerAnd they don't really do recuriting01:45
nixternalthen they ask me to package g thing apps for them, and I do, with K based rootkits :P01:45
apacheloggerRiddell: in the good old times ;-)01:45
blizzzi'd like to start with a minor "beginner" task for jackalope, but will ping Riddell then01:45
nixternalRiddell: hahaha, I heckled jono for his KDE work when he tried dissing it at penguicon01:45
apacheloggerblizzz: can you direct this request to the german team: recruit developers @ fairs01:46
apacheloggerWorks for Google :D01:46
seeleare there any upstream contributors using kubuntu?01:46
blizzzapachelogger: i can01:46
seelewe could recruit them to do some heavy lifting01:46
apacheloggerruphy is01:46
nixternalya, but lets not recruit like google....they get recruits from fairs, give them high hopes, only to stomp on them by not hiring them as real employees because it is policy01:46
apacheloggerseele: upstream devs mostly switch distros very frequently01:46
Riddellseele: as in KDE developers?  I saw loads of Kubuntu screens at akademy01:46
JontheEchidnathat's cool01:47
seeleRiddell: start tapping shoulders!01:47
seeleapachelogger: we only need them for 6 months at a time ;)01:47
Riddellseele: what sort of lifting are you thinking of?01:47
apacheloggernixternal: Hm, ok, would have been fun though :P01:47
apacheloggerseele: true01:47
seeleRiddell: something like printing that will eventually go upstream, filesharing, etc.01:48
blizzzi'll have a talk at ubucon where i can inlcude this01:48
nixternalapachelogger: I have seen a lot of people join the Ubuntu community thinking that some day they would get a job with Canonical...so you have to watch out01:48
neversfelde hard to find real devs out there, we thought about some kind of workshop, but the organizer left to opensolaris01:48
nixternalsounds like me...I was planning on the same thing here, but got a real job01:49
Riddellseele: trouble with stuff like that is we're filling them in just because upstream developers don't care.  I got zero replies to the s-c-p review time in kdereview except someone from Mandriva01:49
nixternalhad to pay the bills01:49
apacheloggernixternal: as long as they help out until they recognize that we are a 2nd class citizen I really don't care :P01:49
JontheEchidnablueheaded stepchild, that's us!01:49
nixternalhahah, nice01:49
nixternalJontheEchidna: that's the winner right there01:49
apacheloggerJontheEchidna: blue = drunken in german :P01:49
JontheEchidnahaha, awesome01:49
nixternalthat's definitely us!01:49
seeleRiddell: so printing was a bust, there has to be other things that we would benefit from01:49
apacheloggerRiddell: I think we can end the meeting. Nightrose is already half asleep ;-)01:50
Nightrosehehe indeed01:50
Riddellyes, I'm getting tired and I've run out of irn-bru01:50
Nightrosei should go to bed01:50
Nightroseneed to get up in a few hours01:50
seeleirn-bru ew01:50
nixternalseele: +1 with you there :)01:51
nixternalI still can't understand the taste01:51
nixternalwe have a pub in chicago that has it01:51
* Nightrose hands cookies and milk to everyone as apachelogger promissed01:51
Nightrosenini folks :)01:51
nixternalnite Nightrose01:51
Riddellthanks all for the meeting, I can write up minutes tomorrow morning if nobody else volunteers01:51
seeleRiddell: you just volunteered ;P01:52
NCommanderargh, of course the meeting ends I didn't get my point out :-P01:52
apacheloggerNCommander: rush it in01:52
RiddellNCommander: quick quick01:52
NCommanderRoughly speaking, I know that Nokia gave a bunch of KDE developers internet tablets, and I think intrepid+1 should look at seriously porting and supporting these devices01:52
nixternal#endmeeting <- Riddell01:53
apacheloggerNCommander: KDE is working on that ;-)01:53
NCommanderapachelogger, I don't think they're porting Kubuntu ;-)01:53
apacheloggerNCommander: you should get in touch with aseigo, maybe he can get you a device.01:53
NCommanderI have to bootstrap the port first01:53
JontheEchidnaso apparently plasma is making an MID interface01:54
JontheEchidnawould be cool to have a Kubuntu MID edition01:54
RiddellNCommander: I've no idea what the status of the ubuntu Arm plans are01:54
seeleRiddell: hum.. another thing we should look at for jaunty is how much config is outside system settings and what can be easily converted to kcm01:55
JontheEchidnauserconfig, jockey, and printer are the ones off the top of my head01:55
seelethere are a bunch of access tools that are floating in kickoff01:55
NCommanderRiddell, it appears dead on arrival w.r.t. to the current porting ideas, so I just want to sit down and bootstrap the port :-)01:55
seelewe should aim to get all the extracurricular stuff out of kickoff and make it apps only01:56
RiddellNCommander: I can offer ssh access if you need it :)01:56
NCommanderRiddell, can that include root access?01:56
NCommander(I need to compile and install some serious system software)01:56
RiddellNCommander: yeah although I'd need to work out how to enable that01:56
MootBotMeeting finished at 19:57.01:57
apacheloggerthat clock seems way off01:57
NCommanderRiddell, I have an ARM box which I can use for the basis of getting things started for this port, its more of a matter of finding possible buildds01:57
apacheloggerwe started at 23 and end at 19?01:57
NCommanderapachelogger, file a bug01:57
* apachelogger thinks the LHC opened a time rift!01:57
NCommanderAck, next thing you'll know, the Debian project will merge with Ubuntu01:58
Riddell02:02 < JontheEchidna> if KOffice is ready for jaunty, that'd free up some disk space02:03
JontheEchidnaI hereby approve the above quote02:03
* apachelogger likes the above quote02:05
Daisuke_Idojaunty?  really?02:20
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=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Release Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Sep 18:00: Mozilla Team | 15 Sep 04:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 16 Sep 11:00: Community Council | 16 Sep 15:00: Server Team | 17 Sep 17:00: QA Team
* ScottK-palm is here via cel phone and will be present as connectivity and battery allow.16:00
cjwatsongood afternoon16:00
rtgI'm a pgraner lookalike16:01
cjwatsonpitti is a Keybuk lookalike, I assume16:01
pittiactually I'll be here regularly16:01
pittibeing the tech lead for our team16:02
pitti(and still being release assistant)16:02
cjwatsonwhich means we're missing mobile, Kubuntu, X, and whoever else I forgot16:02
cjwatsonpitti: right, but in addition :-)16:02
pittiI talked to Riddell an hour ago16:02
pitticjwatson: doing my best to act like two persons :)16:02
cjwatsonbryce,tjaalton: either of you here?16:02
tjaaltoncjwatson: yep16:03
slangasekok, let's go ahead and get started with the folks that are here16:04
* ScottK-palm can at least generally talk to Kubuntu if he doesn't make it.16:04
MootBotMeeting started at 10:04. The chair is slangasek.16:04
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:04
slangasek[TOPIC] QA team16:04
MootBotNew Topic:  QA team16:04
slangasekheno: go ahead, please?16:04
henoThanks cjwatson and others for looking into the landscape issue16:05
henowe've not confirmed that this has unblocked us, but will soon16:06
dendrobatesheno: I think you mean the cdimage building  bug  :)16:06
dendrobatesserver iso built fine.16:06
henowe are also concerned about bug 20178616:06
ubottuLaunchpad bug 201786 in seahorse "ssh Agent admitted failure to sign using the key" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20178616:06
henodendrobates: well, slice it how you like :) It was a complex issue16:07
slangasekhow soon is 'soon'?  I guess we still have quite a bit of hardware certification to get results in on for 2.6.27 before we can make an informed decision on the intrepid kernel16:07
henoslangasek: today we'll know if tests are running again16:08
pittiheno: hm, can you reproduce this? I haven't had problems with seahorse any more in weeks (it was quite broken earlier indeed, thogh)16:08
henobdmurray: I think you flagged this ^16:08
slangasekheno: that refers to the smoke testing, I guess?  not to hardware certification tests?16:08
henoslangasek: I was talking about cert tests. manual smoke tests will resume monday16:09
slangasekheno: ok, great16:10
sbeattieheno: I think bdmurray is offline at the moment16:10
slangasekbug #201786> who should follow up to find out if it's still reproducible?16:10
ubottuLaunchpad bug 201786 in seahorse "ssh Agent admitted failure to sign using the key" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20178616:10
pittiI think this is a bit convoluted16:11
pittithe original report was for hardy16:11
pittithen in early intrepid seahorse was completely broken16:11
pittiand almost everyone's ssh broke16:11
pittibut that was fixed weeks ago again16:11
pittiso there might still be the original corner case, of course16:11
pittibut hard to say without being able to reproduce16:12
slangasekI don't see anything in the log that explains this as a corner case16:12
slangasekpitti: can we assign this to you for follow-up since you're conversant with the issue?16:13
pittiwell, I have no clue at all about the original issue, I just know the bug and fix in intrepid, but sure16:13
pittiI can more or less forward this to upstream and play relay16:13
slangasek[ACTION] pitti to follow up on bug #20178616:13
MootBotACTION received:  pitti to follow up on bug #20178616:13
ubottuLaunchpad bug 201786 in seahorse "ssh Agent admitted failure to sign using the key" [Unknown,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20178616:13
slangasekheno: anything else?16:13
sbeattieHobbsee: ping? you commented on 201786, can you reproduce?16:14
pittioh, powerpc only perhaps16:14
henoI guess there are some xorg dep problems blocking CDs now16:14
MootBotLINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/intrepid/ubuntu/latest/livecd-20080912-i386.out16:14
MootBotLINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/intrepid_probs.html16:14
cjwatsonI'll follow up on X16:15
cjwatson(xorg deps that is)16:15
slangasek[ACTION] cjwatson to follow up on xorg uninstallability16:15
MootBotACTION received:  cjwatson to follow up on xorg uninstallability16:15
henook, thanks16:15
cjwatsonprobably just archive munging16:15
henothat's it from QA16:15
slangasekheno: ok, thanks :)16:15
sbeattiecjwatson: what generates that?16:15
slangasek[TOPIC] Desktop team16:16
MootBotNew Topic:  Desktop team16:16
cjwatsonsbeattie: "britney", the tool used for Debian testing16:16
slangasekpitti: hi16:16
pittispec status: should be reasonable for Alpha 6 and Beta16:16
pittiwe have 3 implemetned, and 8 beta available16:16
pitti(do you want details?)16:16
pittitwo have to be deferred, since they need major upstream work which hasn't happened: better-login-speed and intrepid-menus-review16:17
slangasekdetails> just the ones that are on the border16:17
pittiso on that front we are pretty clear now and know what's going into intrepid16:17
slangasekanything that's beta available that's still going to see large changes between now and alpha?16:17
pittithe beta-avail ones are by and large implemented as far as spec descriptions go and just need some bug fixes16:17
pittino, at least not for the ones that affect ubuntu16:18
pittibut I talked to Riddell and he said that the three kubuntu specs are done16:18
pittione thing wasn't implemented from kubuntu-intrepid-kde4-porting, but that was already deferered and put onto the "someday" roadmap16:18
pittigeneral status:16:18
pittiGNOME: upstream code freeze is next week, pretty stable now; compiz works again, worst gnome-session bugs have been ironed out; worst known regression/problems right now are the lack of session saving/restoring, and the still unclear status of the logout dialog. The latter is under discussion. No release critical bugs open at the moment, just a lot which we would like to fix by the release.16:18
pittione bug that affects us majorly is https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mesa/+bug/26260516:19
ubottuLaunchpad bug 262605 in mesa "[intrepid] X locks up or crashes when screensaver activates" [High,Incomplete]16:19
pittibut I think today's mesa upload fixed it16:19
pittithe other is that usplash still doesn't work on current kernels on many machines16:19
pittiI don't think anyone investigated it further in the recent weeks16:19
pittiLangpacks: Uploaded to intrepid this week. They are still very incomplete, though, allegedly due to a lot of yet unapproved new templates in Rosetta. The distro-side machinery has been set up (cron jobs and the like) and works.16:20
cjwatsonI changed the translation focus to intrepid today, FWIW16:20
pittiI'm currently discussing with Arne and jtv how to bring them into shape16:20
pittiapparently rosetta requires a truckload of manual approving process16:20
pittiso I discussed some heuristics which can automate this, which have proven to work well in the ages when langpack-o-matic imported the translation tarballs directly16:21
slangasekusplash> I don't think I've seen an open targeted bug about this anymore?16:21
cjwatsonI thought usplash had improved with .2716:21
cjwatsonI mean the usplash/kernel situation16:21
pittislangasek: there is a bug, I'll look for it; gimme a second16:21
pitticjwatson: hm, not for me16:21
cjwatsoncertainly my laptop went from never-working to only-a-bit-busted16:21
pittislangasek: please assing this as an action to me16:21
cjwatsonit still sometimes hangs and corrupts the display in the middle of usplash thouygh16:21
pittito investigate current situation and update the bug status accordingly16:22
slangasek[ACTION] pitti to investigate current usplash situation and update bug status accordingly16:22
MootBotACTION received:  pitti to investigate current usplash situation and update bug status accordingly16:22
pitticjwatson: good data point, thanks16:22
cjwatsonok, is that all from desktop?16:23
slangasekshould bug #262605 be milestoned, if it's still present?16:24
ubottuLaunchpad bug 262605 in mesa "[intrepid] X locks up or crashes when screensaver activates" [High,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26260516:24
pittislangasek: it should definitively get fixed by the release; maybe -beta?16:24
slangasek[ACTION] slangasek to milestone bug #262605 for beta16:24
pitti(it affects a lot of isntallations and is nasty enough to cause data loss)16:24
MootBotACTION received:  slangasek to milestone bug #262605 for beta16:24
slangasekpitti: anything else?16:25
pittislangasek: those were my bits; by and large it's looking well on the desktop front; anythign else I should mention/prepare in future meetings?16:25
cjwatsonI suggest having something pasteable for future meetings, just for speed16:25
slangasek[TOPIC] Mobile team16:26
MootBotNew Topic:  Mobile team16:26
slangasekpitti: yeah, otherwise I assume you've covered everything that your team knows is urgent, which is important :)16:26
slangaseks/important/what's &/16:26
slangasekpersia: hi, with us?16:26
persiaLatest images for the MID flavour are working.  Just finishing a kernel update to more closely align with the main kernel today, and we'll need a d-i update for that to work.16:27
cjwatson(that's in progress)16:27
persiaWe've still some adjustments to make on the default applications presented in the menus, but most of the rest should just be polish, rather than real changes.16:27
pittislangasek: #262605 bumped16:27
persiacjwatson: I'll let you know as soon as we have a built kernel.16:27
cjwatsonlet's by default not frob Launchpad during these meetings; it will speed things up16:28
slangasekpersia: so, no more freeze exceptions we should be dreading? :-)16:28
ograslangasek, most of our stuff is in universe :)16:28
persiaFor the Mobile flavour, we have most of the bits working, although there's still some difficulties with the launcher, which may impact suitability, and there's as-yet no integration for image building, although some possible updates for livecd-rootfs would be required.16:28
persiaslangasek: I'm not expecting any freeze exceptions for anything in main.  There's some talk about switching from Thunderbird to modest, but I very much doubt it will come together in time.16:29
ograin max ten lines of change for livecd-rootfs (just copying the ubuntu-mod flavour and some adjustments)16:29
cjwatsonpersia: ubiquity issues?16:29
slangasekLoïc writes in mail that dailies are "mostly working" after the switch to 2.6.27 and unionfs, with one aufs fix pending, and the installer is tha last bit to land16:30
persiacjwatson: The only outstanding ubiquity issue I know to affect MID is the issue with partman not working with --automatic, and that can be worked around fairly easily by starting X differently.16:30
ograsladen, aufs might affect ubuntu as well though16:30
cjwatsonthat's a generic bug BTW (as I mentioned to you earlier, but not to the group)16:30
ograerr s/sladen/slangasek :)16:31
persiacjwatson: Is it assigned, or does it need milestoning, or should we work around it?16:31
cjwatsongive me an action to milestone it16:31
cjwatsonand indeed generally fix the bugger16:31
slangasek[ACTION] cjwatson to milestone partman not working with --automatic16:31
MootBotACTION received:  cjwatson to milestone partman not working with --automatic16:31
slangasekpersia: anything else you guys urgently need from the rest of us?16:32
ograslangasek, bug 261873 ... but thats on my todo anyway16:32
ubottuLaunchpad bug 261873 in xf86-input-evtouch "make evtouch devices work with hal-input in intrepid" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26187316:32
persiaslangasek: Not precisely.  We'd like certain knowledge of the kernel to be used, and appreciate the freezes so we aren't surprised, but I think we're mostly self-contained at this point.16:33
slangasek[ACTION] slangasek to review bug #261873 and target16:34
MootBotACTION received:  slangasek to review bug #261873 and target16:34
ubottuLaunchpad bug 261873 in xf86-input-evtouch "make evtouch devices work with hal-input in intrepid" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26187316:34
slangasekpersia: understood, thanks16:34
slangasek[TOPIC] Kernel team16:34
MootBotNew Topic:  Kernel team16:34
rtgstanding in for pgraner16:34
rtgMy status is a bit sparse since I was coopted to join this meeting only an hour ago.16:34
rtgI uploaded 2.6.27-3 (based on -rc6), LRM and linux-meta went in yesterday.16:35
rtgAs cjwatson pointed out, I neglected to mention the ABI bump to the installer mailing list.16:35
slangasekrtg: don't know if you've seen the agenda, btw; I have it on-line at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ReleaseTeam/Meeting/2008-09-1216:35
rtgslangasek: I've got it16:35
rtgThe last I heard from Leann it looked like were no show stopper regressions with 2.6.2716:35
rtgI think bug #182489 requires jockey support.16:35
ubottuLaunchpad bug 182489 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.24 "Atheros wireless (AR5007) not working on various laptops, including the ASUS Eee PC" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/18248916:35
rtgthats it for prepared status from me.16:35
slangasekpitti: are you familiar with that report?  is jockey the right place to handle module blacklisting and such?16:36
pittiI haven't seen the report16:36
pittijockey is the right place to *manually* blacklist modules if the user wants it16:37
rtgits the same 'ol story, 2 drivers with the same PCI IDs.16:37
pittibut it's not a general means to resolve situations where computers don't boot, or so16:37
rtgin this case its ath5k and madwifi, so not boot essential16:37
pittiin general we shouldn't leave the resolution of those conflicts to the user, but fix it by fixing the modalias overlaps to what we think is preferable16:38
rtgthen why provide madwifi at all in that case?16:38
slangasekI'm not sure what that means; I thought any time you had more than one driver claiming a PCI ID the results were non-deterministic?16:38
rtgnot true, it always follows rules.16:39
slangasekand I would think we want to provide the free driver as a fallback16:39
slangasekrtg: pseudo-non-deterministic :)16:39
pittirtg: we can offer it as an alternative in jockey, of course; I have to read the complete bug, takes me a while16:39
rtgin this case, the free driver _is_ the fallback (or 2nd choice)16:39
=== asac_ is now known as asac
slangasekpitti: can I action that and have you guys follow up off-line?16:40
rtgslangasek: I've recently become very familiar with depmod :) its very deterministic.16:40
rtgwhich is not to says that its correct.16:40
slangasek[ACTION] pitti to follow up on bug #182489 from jockey side16:40
MootBotACTION received:  pitti to follow up on bug #182489 from jockey side16:40
ubottuLaunchpad bug 182489 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.24 "Atheros wireless (AR5007) not working on various laptops, including the ASUS Eee PC" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/18248916:40
slangasekrtg: I notice that there are still a number of high-importance regressions against 2.6.27 listed at [LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-2.6.2716:41
slangasek[LINK] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-2.6.2716:41
MootBotLINK received:  https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bugs?field.tag=regression-2.6.2716:41
rtgslayep - we'll be reviewing them as 2.6.27-3 percolates into the rest of the world.16:41
slangasekrtg: are none of these considered show-stoppers, or are they all expected to be fixed?16:41
rtgslagoing by what Leann told us a couple of days ago, there are no show stoppers.16:42
slangasekWARNING: Intrepid might burn down MacBook Pro16:42
slangasekheartwarming title16:42
rtgslangasek: sounds interesting :016:42
slangasekok; presumably if there are some that should be show-stoppers but don't look it, we'll find out about it via hardware cert16:43
slangasekok - thanks for stepping in on short notice :)16:43
slangasek[TOPIC] Foundations team16:44
MootBotNew Topic:  Foundations team16:44
cjwatsonNo milestoned bugs for us16:44
cjwatsonTargeted bugs:16:44
cjwatson 247376: waiting for upstream16:44
cjwatson 267682: -> X guys16:44
cjwatson openoffice.org bugs: I need to bug calc about these once he's no longer in the middle of a hurricane16:44
cjwatson 206191: waiting for upstream16:44
cjwatson 185311: non-Java problems still being reported, needs help! I suggested a crazy switch-at-runtime option but I'm not sure if it's viable yet16:44
cjwatson 251640: now unreproducible, may be done16:44
cjwatson 244413: bryce is looking into this16:44
cjwatson 256054: not for this milestone but asac says it's still RC16:44
cjwatsonFuture issues:16:44
cjwatson pulseaudio 0.9.12 on its way, still undergoing testing16:44
cjwatson mobile broadband wizard still due to land (for 3g-networking-intrepid), needs MIRs16:44
cjwatson Firefox branding changes (to allow an unbranded Firefox) underway16:44
cjwatson I think there are still a few Flash changes pending but need to check16:44
cjwatson usb-creator still needs some work to be main-worthy, in progress16:44
cjwatson system-cleaner likewise16:44
cjwatsonFuture issues, not main:16:44
cjwatson experimental Python 3 packages expected in universe for this cycle16:44
cjwatson OpenOffice.org 3 may see parallel-installable packages, but very questionable for the default at this point as upstream have been slipping their deadlines16:44
cjwatsontjaalton: 267682?16:44
cjwatsonthe bug still seems ... confused16:44
tjaaltoncjwatson: yes..16:45
slangasekso one thing I noticed on 267682... in hardy I was using a .Xmodmap file to get the media keys to work for me16:45
slangasekwhen I don't need my laptop to run a meeting, I'm going to try restarting X without that, and see if it makes a difference16:45
cjwatsonthat might explain a regression16:45
slangasekdon't know if that fits mdz's symptoms at all, though16:46
tjaaltonI think mixing media keys and acpi-related keys is what makes it confusing16:46
cjwatsonso sorry there's quite a long list of future issues, in general we've been running a bit behind this cycle :(16:46
mdzslangasek: I'm sorry I haven't chimed in recently on that one; I've been flat out on an urgent customer situation16:46
slangasekmdz: yep, understood16:46
mdzslangasek: I don't have an .Xmodmap file, this is a pretty clean install16:47
cjwatsonbut I think all of the future issues are fairly well in progress16:47
tjaaltonand my laptop got it's mb replaced, so I haven't had time for anything else besides the couple of updates today16:47
slangasekmdz: I can at least test without .Xmodmap, to see if that lets me converge on the behavior you're seeing16:47
slangasektjaalton: is it your impression that this bug needs to be pushed up the stack to other parts of the system besides X?16:48
tjaaltonslangasek: well, I'd need to know more about what role hal/dbus play in this16:49
tjaaltonslangasek: but yes, maybe :)16:50
cjwatsonanyway, that's all from my team16:50
slangasekpitti: maybe you have some time outside the meeting to talk through with tjaalton how this works?16:50
slangasekpitti: (I'd like to understand this as well)16:50
pittislangasek: right, so do I? no clue about it so far, and too much other stuff going on last week16:51
slangasekcjwatson: is pulseaudio 0.9.12 the Last Piece?  I've noticed that the audio stack seems to have been in flux up 'til now16:51
asac(fwiw, firefox branding split is in archive)16:51
slangasekpitti: darn, I assumed you'd be the expert :)16:51
pittislangasek: on evdev and xorg input? unfortunately  not at all, I'm afraid :(16:51
cjwatsonslangasek: I *think* so16:51
slangasekpitti: on hal's involvement16:51
cjwatsonassuming that .27 stays16:51
tjaaltonpitti: how hal and acpi work together16:52
pittitjaalton: I have a reasonable idea how pm-utils work, but acpi not so much; sladen and mjg59 have been the primary hackers on that so far, maybe they're online later16:52
slangasekpitti, tjaalton: maybe you could talk through this all after the meeting on #-devel, or otherwise we can schedule a time?16:52
pitti#u-devel ok for me; I can also run some tests then16:53
tjaaltonslangasek: I'm available, yes16:53
slangasek[ACTION] tjaalton, pitti to discuss hal/acpi/evdev stack offline to get a handle on bug #26768216:53
MootBotACTION received:  tjaalton, pitti to discuss hal/acpi/evdev stack offline to get a handle on bug #26768216:53
ubottuLaunchpad bug 267682 in Ubuntu Intrepid "Hotkeys no longer working in Intrepid (evdev?)" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26768216:53
slangasekok, thanks guys16:54
slangasek[TOPIC] Server team16:54
MootBotNew Topic:  Server team16:54
dendrobatesI would like  to get bug #262264 fixed16:54
ubottuLaunchpad bug 262264 in likewise-open "Fails to join a domain: Unknown pam configuration" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26226416:54
slangasekyep, it's milestoned and I'm going to be poking at it today to confirm that the proposed resolution makes sense16:55
dendrobatesand if cjwatson could look at bug #269040 and it is a trivial fix that as well.16:55
ubottuLaunchpad bug 269040 in ubuntu-cdimage "The tasksel task for 'Basic Ubuntu Server'  shows up on server iso" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26904016:55
cjwatson269040 is not entirely trivial but is not impossible16:55
slangasekshould be targeted to release?16:56
cjwatsonyes, but it's on ubuntu-cdimage not Ubuntu. I'll fix up the state after the meeting16:56
slangasek(and milestoned for beta?)16:56
slangasekah, right16:56
dendrobatesI think it is very confusing for users.16:56
cjwatsonwe can commit to getting it done16:56
slangasek[ACTION] cjwatson to target 269040 for intrepid16:56
MootBotACTION received:  cjwatson to target 269040 for intrepid16:56
dendrobatesWe also have the smartpm/landscape-client issues.16:57
pittidendrobates: btw, please talk to doko for MIRs in my absence next week16:57
pittibut I'll still comment on the two MIR bugs16:58
dendrobatessmartpm has been split and we are trying to come up with a method to handle desktop upgrades.16:58
dendrobatesof landscape-client.16:58
dendrobateswe are unable to test the integration in the installer until we get this fixed.16:59
dendrobatesthat is all.17:00
slangasekmathiaz was mentioning just before the meeting a split of the landscape-client package; does that address this entirely, or is there more needing chnaged?17:00
dendrobatesit addresses the server, but does not address desktop updates.17:00
cjwatsonI think "under discussion" is the best description17:01
cjwatsonit will probably end up looking *something* like that ...17:01
slangasekdendrobates: btw, I see there's an action item from two meetings back about getting a blurb for the Technical Overview from mathiaz for samba 3.2; is that still pending, or was it decided not to highlight it?17:01
dendrobatesstill pending, he is right here. I'll talk to him about it.17:02
slangaseknagging accomplished :)17:02
slangasekon landscape, I gather that it's sufficiently under discussion that there's not really anything actionable I can take away from it at this moment17:03
dokopitti: I'll be away next week as well :-/17:03
pittioh, right17:03
slangasekso, we'll continue the discussions about landscape (I'm sure!) and move on for now17:04
slangasek[TOPIC] Kubuntu17:04
MootBotNew Topic:  Kubuntu17:04
dendrobatessince we are done with the smartpm changes, can we finish the mir today?17:04
slangasekRiddell pinged me out-of-band and asked to speak about Kubuntu status; I think we're agreed that in the future, this should be included in the Desktop team report ahead of time17:05
RiddellKubuntu is mostly in good shape, we need to do lots of upgrade testing which has been started and I'll do lots next week17:05
Riddellthe main problem is knetworkmanager doesn't work after an update of network-manager17:05
Riddelland upstream is away for the next couple of weeks17:05
Riddellso I don't know if it'll get fixed in time17:05
Riddellasac was good enough to start a compile but I don't know if he's had time to look at what API changed need done17:06
slangasekRiddell: "in time" meaning it may be unresolved for final?17:06
Riddellslangasek: possibly, upstream works on suse's timetable not ours.  I think it'll be fixed by then but I can't say about beta at all17:07
pittidendrobates: just commented on the smart mir17:07
slangaseknot a pleasant choice to make, but it seems fairly obvious to me that if knetworkmanager has to land after beta, we would take it rather than leaving kubuntu without it17:08
RiddellI think I need to poke upstream again and try and get an answer about timings17:08
Riddellit was working fine with the nm daemon that was tested before it went into the archive, but unfortunately it was updated without me knowing17:09
slangasekcjwatson: is there a chance asac has room on his plate to help with knetworkmanager as a high priority for beta?17:09
cjwatsonwe need the mobile broadband wizard and the remaining Flash changes (if any; as mentioned before, I need to check that) done first; after that, I believe so17:10
slangasekRiddell: is there a bug number for this issue?17:11
Riddellslangasek: yes, I don't have it to hand, I'll find it and milestone it17:11
slangasek[ACTION] Riddell to find bug number for knetworkmanager breakage and milestone to beta, subscribing asac17:12
MootBotACTION received:  Riddell to find bug number for knetworkmanager breakage and milestone to beta, subscribing asac17:12
slangasek[TOPIC] MOTU17:12
MootBotNew Topic:  MOTU17:12
slangasekScottK-palm2: you're off the hook for Kubuntu now; how about MOTU?17:12
ScottK-palm2Things seem pretty good.17:13
ScottK-palm2Have a big stack of FFe asking to update Java packages so they can get to Universe17:14
slangasekbig, but diminishing? :)17:15
ScottK-palm2It seems a pretty normal release.17:15
persiaScottK: Those should stop coming after today.17:15
ScottK-palm2Big, but need to looking at.17:15
ScottK-palm2I think that's all of note.17:17
slangasekhave I managed to avoid miscommunicating on behalf of MOTU this time around?  Any notes I should include in future release team announcements?17:17
ScottK-palm2I'll be on vacation for the next meeting.  I'll ask someone else to show up.17:18
ScottK-palm2Let me have a look later. nothing that smacked me in the face.17:18
slangasekok, thanks17:18
slangasek[TOPIC] general feature update17:18
MootBotNew Topic:  general feature update17:18
slangasekI'm not sure we have anything to cover under this agenda item this late in the cycle, besides the freeze exception stuff already covered individually17:19
slangasekno? moving on then17:20
slangasek[TOPIC] Known regressions17:20
MootBotNew Topic:  Known regressions17:20
slangasek[LINK] http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/intrepid/alpha5#Known Issues17:20
MootBotLINK received:  http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/intrepid/alpha5#Known Issues17:20
slangasekmost of these are already resolved or are in progress, so don't bear dwelling on17:20
cjwatson246412 is done17:21
slangasekhttps://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/251640 is still outstanding; cjwatson mentioned it wasn't reproducible for him17:21
ubottuLaunchpad bug 251640 in debian-installer "Manual install fail when using encrypted LVM" [High,New]17:21
cjwatson(hasn't been mentioned here)17:21
pitti256972 should be fixed now, I'l double-check17:22
slangasekI'm going to try to reproduce 251640 myself, probably early next week17:22
slangasekpitti: it is17:22
sbeattiecjwatson: well, papered over. Nobody's tracked down what the actual compiler issue is yet17:23
pittishutdown/reboot menu works as well now17:23
cjwatsonsbeattie: right17:23
slangasekthe two items on there that are the biggest question mark for me are the ones that don't have associated bug numbers17:23
cjwatsonsbeattie: but, honestly, not sure it's important enough to spend the n days it would take to figure it out17:23
slangasekInputDevice entries for the mouse and keyboard> is that something we need to clean up, or is this really a release notes documentation issue?17:23
slangaseksome keys might misbehave in X> I guess this is a good thing to highlight for the moment, hopefully we're getting all the feedback we need to resolve these all for final17:24
cjwatsonI'm not sure why we're still shipping those entries if they're ignored17:24
cjwatson(except perhaps on upgrades)17:24
tjaalton they are ignored17:25
slangasekcjwatson: AFAIK, they're only shipped on upgrades, not on new installs17:25
tjaaltonbut new installs don't get them17:25
cjwatsonoh, right, in that case it's a release notes issue I think17:25
cjwatsonI don't think we can clean it up automatically since we can't assume that it matches /etc/default/console-setup17:26
slangasek[ACTION] slangasek to add to release notes that the /etc/X11/xorg.conf InputDevice sections are no longer used17:26
MootBotACTION received:  slangasek to add to release notes that the /etc/X11/xorg.conf InputDevice sections are no longer used17:26
cjwatsonand it was something people often customised17:26
slangasekwell, if they're ignored it doesn't matter what they contain either :)17:26
cjwatsonexcept confusion value ...17:26
slangasekand that's everything from the caveat list that's still outstanding17:27
slangasek[TOPIC] Hardware testing17:27
MootBotNew Topic:  Hardware testing17:27
slangasekheno: anything more that needs to be said on this point?17:27
tjaaltonwe can also add something to the header, that if people insist on using the InputDevice entries, they need to add 'Option "AutoAddDevices" "false"' to ServerFlags17:27
henoslangasek: no from me17:27
slangasektjaalton: ah, thanks; I'll probably run the release notes wording past you, if that's ok17:28
slangasekheno: ok, cheers17:28
slangasek[TOPIC] ISO size17:28
MootBotNew Topic:  ISO size17:28
tjaaltonslangasek: sure thing17:28
henotests have been down for several days from various issues but we are setting up new runs now17:28
slangasekwe're not critical yet on size, but I have seen the sizes inching back up over the past week17:28
slangasekactually, sizes are down again today since yesterday, possibly related to landscape-client unseeding17:29
pitti^ that shoould have brought ~ 2 MB17:29
slangasekso we do need to be watchful of how much space we're eating up when adding new features - i386 still has some wiggle-room on alternate, but everything else is pretty close to the edge already17:31
slangasekcjwatson: did Luke ever have a chance to test out the audio downsampling?  I hadn't heard that it landed, at least17:31
slangasek(probably too late now for intrepid if it's not already done, but would be good to know whether that might give us back some space for jaunty)17:32
cjwatsonslangasek: I thought I remembered it landing a while back, but give me an action to check17:33
slangasek[ACTION] cjwatson to check on whether desktop sound downsampling has landed17:33
MootBotACTION received:  cjwatson to check on whether desktop sound downsampling has landed17:33
slangasekunless anybody has some quick ideas about freeing up space on CDs, then, I think we're done17:33
cjwatson59 minutes17:33
cjwatsonerr. 89 minutes17:34
MootBotMeeting finished at 11:34.17:34
slangasekthanks again, all!17:34
pittithanks everyone17:34
pittislangasek: you'll send the actions by mail, I assume? or shall we take notes?17:34
slangasekyes, I'll send out the actions later today (so y'all in the wrong timezone will have them by Monday)17:35
=== mvo__ is now known as mvo
=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 14 Sep 18:00: Mozilla Team | 15 Sep 04:00: Arizona LoCo IRC | 16 Sep 11:00: Community Council | 16 Sep 15:00: Server Team | 17 Sep 17:00: QA Team | 17 Sep 22:00: Platform Team
=== philwyett_ is now known as philwyett
ubottuping yourself ;-) really the diodes all down my left side are sore19:35
ubottuInformation about using and setting your computer's clock on Ubuntu can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuTime - See https://help.ubuntu.com/7.10/server/C/NTP.html for information on usage of the Network Time Protocol (NTP)19:38
thorwilhey dilomo, you made it ;)19:51
=== tritium_ is now known as tritium
kwwiiare we disturbing another meeting?20:00
kwwiihope not :-)20:00
_MMA_doesnt look like it.20:00
mikmit's been quiet in here, so doesn't seem that way20:00
Artirwe always have ubuntu-meeting-art20:00
asacdamn ... i wanted some privacy here ... shame on you :-P20:01
* asac hides20:01
dilomogood evening everyone20:01
Artiris the sabdfl going to be here for the meeting?20:01
kwwiino, he won't be attending that I know of20:02
kwwiiso, let's get this going20:02
kwwiihow many people are here from one of the community theme teams?20:03
* beuno waves20:03
beunoI'm here just to watch  :)20:03
_MMA_If Studio is one. :)20:03
dilomome, counts20:03
Artirme 220:04
_MMA_And those themes are?20:04
kwwiiyeah, introduce yourself!20:04
kwwiidrum roll please20:04
* Picklesworth taps drums20:04
* Artir taps drums20:05
kwwiiok, giving up on that, let's actually start20:05
_MMA_Come on. If you do a theme, what is it so we can move along. ;)20:05
* mikm is a humble observer20:06
* Artir is a lurker20:06
_MMA_kwwii: Go for it.20:06
kwwiiok, item 120:06
kwwiidefault theme info20:06
kwwiithe theme is in need of major work, I know that20:07
kwwiihuman, that is20:07
kwwiiI am going to be working on it next week, so while the theme teams are working on new stuff so will I :-)20:07
kwwiiany wallpaper ideas are welcome, we have had quite a few but nothing that says "default to me"20:07
PicklesworthWill you be putting out a changelog or something of the sort, for Human?20:08
_MMA_kwwii: Really, think me an ass for not looking. What engine is Human using now?20:08
kwwiihuman is using murrine20:08
kwwiibut it might just end up using two engines20:08
_MMA_hahahahah :P20:08
kwwiiafter talking to cimi about it, it is apparently not the biggest issue20:08
dilomowhy two?20:09
* _MMA_ sends a big "I told ya so." Kens way.20:09
kwwiiso, yes, I will announce changes and put everything in my ppa20:09
kwwiidilomo: for the progress bars, scrollbars and handles in human20:09
kwwiiif anyone has any questions about the default artwork feel free to ask me20:10
_MMA_kwwii: Did you find a link to the wallpapers on the wiki?20:10
Cimiit won't affect stability, just the look20:10
_MMA_DO we have anything to look at now?20:10
lucazadekwwii: are you going to use clearlooks for these widgets?20:10
kwwii_MMA_: no, I thought there was one but I couldn't find it anymore20:10
kwwiilucazade: no murrine20:10
* _MMA_ pokes around.20:10
Artirso overall the intrepid's humant theme will look like the old one but with murrina?20:10
kwwiiArtir: it might, it might not...that depends on what response and direction I get from sabdfl20:11
kwwiithat is what I am basically starting off with though, so to some extent yes20:11
kwwiibut that might change quiuckly20:11
kwwiierm, spelling20:11
PicklesworthYou were mentioning somewhere that the line on top of the titlebar wasn't working. I fully agree with that thought :) Any thoughts for what will go instead?20:11
kwwiiPicklesworth: not sure at the moment, I wanted to take some time and play around with some other ideas20:12
_MMA_kwwii: there's also Bug 269470 now.20:12
ubottuLaunchpad bug 269470 in human-theme "Notification Windows are white-on-white in NewHuman" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26947020:12
kwwiiPicklesworth: one thing I really liked about dust was the window buttons on the right (the gradient)20:12
kwwiineat idea20:12
Cimikwwii, you know you can count on me for upstream modifications. of cours you should do mockups of something consinstent because human progress and scrolls will NEVER be merged in murrine20:12
kwwii_MMA_: yeah, I asked Ted to file that20:12
kwwiiCimi: actually, I spent several hours today working on ideas...I'll probably send you something later tonight20:13
PicklesworthI was about to mention dust for managing to have a highlight on the top of a window that is noticeable and pretty, but done via borders20:13
kwwiiright, that is a good iea to try as well20:13
Cimiok, please use the submission form on murrine.cimitan.com20:13
kwwiiCimi: ok, will do20:13
mikmPicklesworth: I'm a fan of that as well20:14
kwwiiso, the next item is the community theme package20:14
kwwiithings have been coming along pretty well with this, I am putting out a new package every day or two20:14
kwwiithere will be another update by tomorrow morning with the very latest stuff20:15
kwwiithe newwave firefox issue was luckily solved, good work from dilomo  :-)20:15
kwwiithat should make things a lot easier in the future20:15
Cimiupdate also murrine, i did an api break, people should test20:15
dilomolet's hope Ibex will include the latest gnome20:15
Artirwouldn't be better to include a custom firefox theme?20:16
Artirto solve the issues20:16
kwwiiCimi: yes, I will do that as well20:16
dilomoso that New Wave can use light Main Menu20:16
Cimii'm for essentiality20:16
kwwiiArtir: if you really want to change things, then the best idea is to have a firefox skin20:16
Ciminot to add a theme for every app20:16
kwwiiwhich one could install seperately20:16
_MMA_Artir: Only if it's user-installable or not part of the FF package.20:16
_MMA_Ken_V! :)20:16
kwwiithe next time you started firefox it would open a pop-up offering the new skin20:17
* _MMA_ is Cory K. :)20:17
Ken_VIf I'm late, sorry, Just got off work (still in my uniform, bleh)20:17
kwwiibut with that solution you have to install it yourself, which means you have to know it exists, open and app, get root, etc20:17
thorwilbut who is Ken_V, it's such a cryptic nick!20:17
Cimiff3 finally got a good theme support20:17
Cimistart learning how to do working themes!20:17
ArtirI mean making it part of the official theme and ship it by default20:17
Ciminot do skins20:18
lucazadeyes ff3 doesn't need a skin nowadays20:18
dilomoMay I ask all the people here to help me with ideas about a new New Wave metacity theme20:18
Artirwas just and idea to solve the issues with background and text..20:18
_MMA_kwwii: I'd like to ask how are the community themes being managed? Is it all just emails to kwwii with updates?20:18
kwwiidilomo: what ideas did you have? maybe someone here is interested?20:18
kwwii_MMA_: that and everything goes on the wiki20:18
kwwiiso I get it either from the wiki or per email20:19
dilomowell I ask for ideas because a lot of people are complaining20:19
dilomoof the metacity being too simple20:19
Ciminew wave should reduce the shadow effect on the menubar and redesign notebooks IMO20:19
dilomoand not 3d20:19
_MMA_dilomo: How has that worked for you? Do you think managing things through BZR might be good?20:19
kwwiiI think it would be worthwhile for all the theme authors to discuss their problem, solutions, etc with one another, share the love so to speeak20:19
dilomoI can upload there20:20
dilomobut I cannot create debs20:20
dilomojust don't know how20:20
Cimigive sources20:20
_MMA_dilomo: You din't need to to manage the code with BZR.20:20
Cimithey are enough20:20
ArtirI posted a guide on the mailing list20:21
Artirto create theme packages20:21
dilomoI have uploaded mines20:21
_MMA_dilomo: I mean you can just put whatever on BZR and kwwii can pull your changes there.20:21
kwwiiI take the gtk and the metacity stuff from dilomo's tar.gz and package it with the others20:21
kwwii_MMA_: he does put it in bzr20:21
kwwiiit is just not in package form in his repo20:22
_MMA_Thats what I asked. :)20:22
dilomopribably I can update a package containing the latest changes20:22
kwwiiand I have the community themes package in bzr/launchpad as well20:22
_MMA_So who's here from Dust/Kith?20:22
kwwiiKen_V: atm, we have Kin in the community themes package20:23
kwwiiand although I would like to include Didymous I would rather wait until the metacity theme is done20:23
_MMA_But the theme itself is not in BZR?20:23
Ken_VMetacity is ready and already available. :)20:23
_MMA_(just trying to get an overview)20:24
Ken_VI even got a mod from a user of it improving the buttons, it will be updated after the meeting20:24
dilomohey Ken your metacity is really cool btw20:24
Cimii would change button gradients in didimous20:24
Ken_V@_MMA_ Danikuu20:24
kwwiiKen_V: the wireframe metacity stuff is done?20:25
lucazadeKen_V: what about reduce saturation for bg_color?20:25
Ken_VSadly I never got anything good enough. The wireframe was always superimposed over black, so it didn't look good.20:25
Ken_VAnd I don't like the idea of composite metacity yet.20:25
dilomoCimi: how do you thin I should change the menubar's dropshadow?20:26
kwwiiI would go for it, it seems like the one thing that sells it to me :-)20:26
Cimiby reducing it a bit20:26
_MMA_kwwii: Before you we move to Breathe, I have thoughts on Community theme package.20:26
Ken_V@lucazade I'm waiting until it's technically ready for regular use until I start branched off the main theme. Including saturation20:27
dilomoand what about the notebook?20:27
Ken_V(Theres one more Didymous bug I want to fix, and I'll declair it "ready"20:27
lucazadeken_V: ok20:27
Cimioh, that requires a redesign imo20:27
Cimii don't like its shadow in20:27
Ken_VThe Emerald is unfortunately using pixmaps with solid colours20:27
_MMA_Why does anyone use Emerald id Compiz works with Metacity?20:28
dilomoCimi: but it looks nice in most of the apps20:28
_MMA_Is Emerald even being developed anymore?20:28
Ken_V@_MMA_ you can do more with Emerald20:28
Cimimeans that it is my opinion20:29
Artircompiz guys are developing a new one called Jasper20:29
Cimiyou couldtake care or not20:29
Ken_VOoo, I need to look up Jasper20:29
Cimiit's first of all your theme, not mine20:29
_MMA_Yeah. I wouldnt continue Emerald theme development.20:29
PicklesworthThere are rumblings about redoing Metacity theming, at which point hopefully the compositor will become nicer for themers20:29
Picklesworthmaybe 2.28, if we're extra lucky?20:30
dilomooh by the way how can I make the metacity border of the inactive windows to be solid20:30
Artirit seems that the guy who was making jasper http://dev.compiz-fusion.org/~kristian/20:30
dilomonot transparent?20:30
Cimiusing gconftool-220:30
Artirtried to get it into hardt20:30
dilomoI mean without extra setup20:31
Ken_VHow far into Development is Jasper?20:31
dilomojust in the metacity file20:31
Artirnot very adcanced20:31
Artirbut it does the job20:31
Artirit can draw the decorations20:31
_MMA_Ok. As this is getting of on tangents about theme specifics and what not, lets try to move that to the ML or normal channel later so we can continue with the agenda.20:31
Artirand it can manage svg20:32
Artircode --> git clone git://anongit.compiz-fusion.org/users/b0le/jasper20:32
Ken_VI'll continue to investigate, for now lets get back on-rail20:32
_MMA_kwwii: ?20:32
Ken_VThank you!20:32
kwwii_MMA_: you had some thoughts on community?20:32
_MMA_-Community theme package:  *Add wallpapers?20:32
dilomokwwii: ok go on20:33
_MMA_kwwii: Well I was waiting 'till after the last 2 points.20:33
kwwiiyeah, however has a wallpaper which they would like to suggest for the package should add them to the wiki page and then send me an email20:33
_MMA_Well, this point.20:33
Cimioh kwwii! i have a patch for GtkStatusIcon and gnome-panel... you know which patch20:33
kwwiiI'll send and email to the list about this as well20:33
PicklesworthI think it would help to have community themes and wallpapers in different packages, but have the wallpapers as a Recommended package with themes20:33
Picklesworththat way the themes can safely suggest certain wallpapers :)20:34
lucazadeCimi, i would like to know too :P20:34
kwwiithe thing is this: we are not promising to put any wallpapers in unless they are really good enough20:34
Picklesworthbut the themes package on its own would still be nice and tiny20:34
_MMA_kwwii: Ok. So basically you're looking for suggestions.20:34
kwwiiI can put a wallpaper with a theme20:34
kwwiithat is not a big deal20:34
kwwiiit suggests the wallpaper when you change and that is it20:34
ArtirOne that looks great is the Wall-light wallpaper20:35
_MMA_Artir: There is no license for it.20:35
kwwiiArtir: yeah, and the person who made it will not respond about a license20:35
_MMA_And it's origin is under contention.20:35
Artirthere is no license?20:35
kwwiimy guess is that it is something that someone else made or from some product20:36
dilomowell cant we make another one20:36
_MMA_If one wanted, one could re-create it pretty easy.20:36
_MMA_dilomo: ;)20:36
Artirit wouln't be the same :(20:36
_MMA_Oh well.20:36
Picklesworthkwwii: you had a pretty interesting design with some red dots in a spiral shape. Did that get anywhere?20:36
dilomoYes it would be better :)20:36
kwwiiPicklesworth: yes, it is on the wiki20:37
Ken_Vwhich page?20:37
kwwiiI have another idea from a photo I took while on vacation20:37
* Picklesworth starts madly clicking through the wiki20:37
* Ken_V does the same20:38
_MMA_kwwii: I'll bring up my point when you're satisfied with the wallpaper chat.20:38
kwwiiwell, again...anyone with wallpaper ideas please get them out there20:39
kwwiiand if anyone in any theme team needs help, ask on the mailing list, irc, or email me personaly20:39
Ken_VFlogging my own horn, there's the orange wallpapers used in Didymous20:39
kwwiiand if anyone has any knowledge please help the others :-)20:39
dilomowhy don't we use pictures instead20:40
Artirwe would need warm pictures then20:40
dilomojust a nice photograph of an Ibex20:40
kwwiidilomo: because pictures are really hard to use as a default bg20:40
PicklesworthI've been using the same timelapsed Dawn / Night / Day of Ubuntu for ages. Maybe I'm just biased / have an addictive personality, but I keep thinking it's a neat and unobtrusive way to keep things looking fresh20:41
kwwiithere is nothing saying you cannot use a picture, of course, it just has ot be perfect and of the right kind of stuff20:41
lucazadeit's hard to get focus with pictures20:41
dilomowill blur them at the edges ;)20:42
kwwiiso anything else about wallpapers?20:42
kwwii_MMA_: go for it20:42
_MMA_Ok. I want to make it a public note that what goes in "community-themes" package will still be at Marks discretion. He will still have to approve what goes in.20:43
_MMA_SO I have issue with the name.20:44
dilomoArtir: Hibiscus Flower is cool20:44
_MMA_As the themes are community but what's included is not their decision.20:44
dilomo_MMA_: go on20:44
* _MMA_ types slow. :P20:44
* Ken_V feels _MMA_'s pain20:45
gp[]ih everyone20:45
_MMA_In the end, it's whatever. I just want to avoid future misunderstandings.20:45
_MMA_That just like default, Mark has to approve.20:46
_MMA_I've said my peace. :)20:46
Ken_VWe could always use the Hardy wallpaper sans heron, although it's probably like wearing the same shirt 5 days in a row.20:46
kwwii_MMA_: I can undersand your point20:47
_MMA_Aston had some WIP Ibex stuff didn't he?20:47
dilomowhat about this one:20:47
kwwii_MMA_: and I agree with you to some extent20:47
kwwiihey guys, let's stop discussing the wallpaper like we are going to pic one now, ok?20:47
_MMA_It's just a FYI to the people here. Just for the future.20:48
kwwiilet's get back to the usse at hand20:48
_MMA_Anyone else have thoughts on what I said?20:48
kwwiiand _MMA_ is right that sabdfl wants Canonical to have a say in which community themes are included on the CD20:48
Ken_Vdilomo: I think that desktop feels a bit unpolished...20:48
thorwilso it should be called suppressed community themes or censored community themes20:49
kwwiihe has had the package installed on his computer for a while, so hearing nothing is a good sign :-)20:49
kwwiimaybe I picked a bad name for it20:49
dilomoKen_V: it will polish over time20:49
Ken_VTrue enough20:49
kwwiiI just picked a name, nothing was to be meant by it20:49
kwwiibut now it means a lot20:50
_MMA_kwwii: As it's not yet in the archive, maybe there's still time to change?20:50
kwwiiI'd like to know how many people have a problem with the way things are now20:50
_MMA_The name or the restriction on the package?20:50
gp[]I arrived late, but have you considered these? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/Kith_Intrepid#Wallpapers20:51
PicklesworthMaybe community themes could do with a less technical descriptive name (eg: for GNOME App Install) like "diverse themes"?20:52
kwwii_MMA_: either or20:52
kwwiiPicklesworth: yeah, extra-themes or such20:52
kwwiito be honest, the name of the package doesn't matter20:53
kwwiinobody sees that in the end anyway20:53
_MMA_kwwii: I disagree.20:53
Artiri agree20:53
_MMA_Most users won't care. People here will.20:53
Artirmost people either leave the default theme or look for a better one on gnomelooks20:53
kwwii_MMA_: well, yeah, ok20:54
dilomoI just couldn't understand something20:54
Ken_VHow could we make the community themes more accessible then?20:54
_MMA_Or rather, people who create the "community themes" *might* care.20:54
dilomoare the community themes going to be installed but not default or20:54
kwwiiKen_V: with a team PPA20:54
PicklesworthThe package itself in apt should definitely have the most technical name with least chance of overlap, but where mentioned for users (if it is), it should be shown in a way that describes the end product instead of the details of its development20:54
kwwiiKen_V: and with people putting their packages in it when there is an update20:54
dilomothey are not going to be installed but available in Synaptic20:54
kwwiiPicklesworth: agreed20:54
kwwiiI will rename the package20:55
Ken_VEr, I mean on the user-side, such as button on the theme panel labelled "get more themes" (or along those lines)20:55
Ken_VI'm thinking of something else20:55
_MMA_Ok. I guess now is as good a time to may my intention of a community-artwork package known.20:55
kwwii_MMA_: while we are at it, we might as well discuss leadership as well20:56
_MMA_It will be completely an add-on package where the community decides what goes in it. Separate from anyone at Canonical or otherwise.20:56
kwwiimany people think that I am paid from canonical to lead the artwork community but that is not really true20:56
Ken_VI for one bow to our new internet overlords. Oh, other leadership.20:56
gp[]Ken_V: good idea20:56
_MMA_kwwii: Sure. In a sec. :)20:56
kwwiiI work with the community, true and I am the voice of canonical to and from the community20:57
_MMA_But in the end, kwwii's only real role should be a in-between.20:57
kwwiibut I do not necessarily have to lead the community in a formal sense20:57
Artirand they don't like any theme made by the community?20:57
_MMA_A foot in both worlds for communication.20:58
kwwiithere are parts of what I do which do lead the community but not as a president or leader as such20:58
Ken_VNot even leadership is needed, so much as structure20:58
kwwiiKen_V: right, that is a big part of it20:58
kwwiiit is almost like a babysitter I am sorry to say :-)20:58
_MMA_Ken_V: I believe some leadership is needed. At least for awhile to get things moving.20:58
kwwiiso having a head-cat-herder is a good idea20:59
ArtirI've heard canonical is hiring more designers20:59
Ken_VIt's a bit redundant though, herding of the cats?20:59
_MMA_Someone with the technical resources to get things done needs to be here for a bit. Now I'd like to do it, but I have to look at some things 1st.21:00
Ken_VMaybe while an infrastructure is built, but once you have an overall team leader you're trying to organize sparse voulenteers.21:00
kwwiiyes, we are hiring more artists and in fact we just hired a person as team leader for our design and user experience team21:00
_MMA_Mostly stepping down as the lead of Studio and what is needed around here.21:00
_MMA_Ken_V: That's about the idea.21:01
dilomokwwii: can you share more info21:01
Artirwho is :)?21:01
kwwiiI will discuss the leadership issue with sabdfl and others and respond on the elist21:01
_MMA_dilomo: About? He's nobody in the end to us.21:01
_MMA_Unless it's just general curiosity.21:02
dilomo_MMA_: about the user experience team and their future role21:02
Artirso there are separate design and art teams?21:02
_MMA_Artir: The art team as it is, does nothing in Ubuntu.21:03
Ken_VWhen it comes to the Canonical-side team, is there anywhere we can actually see what they are doing?21:03
_MMA_I mean, we're not responsible for the look of Ubuntu.21:03
_MMA_Ken_V: Development releases?21:04
kwwiiKen_V: I show quite a bit of what I am doing, until now I was the only person really doing anything21:04
_MMA_kwwii: +121:04
_MMA_So far what kwwii has done has been quite public.21:04
kwwiithe team is being built, which is different from the team exists :-)21:04
Artirbut who is the new design team member?21:05
dilomokwwii: it's a start after all21:05
Ken_VUnderstood, I just meant for the new designer(s)21:05
_MMA_This is kinda getting off track.21:06
kwwiiyes, definitely21:06
_MMA_I wanna move this along.21:06
kwwiilet's get to the last point and then be done21:06
_MMA_So. To recapp.21:06
_MMA_1 sec.21:06
_MMA_Anybody have issue with kwwii's package?21:06
_MMA_Ok. I will still be moving forward with a package that can include things *we* decide.21:07
_MMA_User added. Like kwwii's but expanded.21:08
_MMA_I'm also guessing nobody is gonna challange me for any kinda leadership role and I can just do it. :)21:08
mikmWill it be a superset of kwwii's package and function as a drop-in replacement, or will it be an addon to the default community-themes?21:08
_MMA_mikm: One will get it from Synaptic.21:09
thorwil_MMA_: only becasue i'm in a bad mood these days :)21:09
_MMA_thorwil: I still need your help. ;)21:09
_MMA_Ok. Moving on.21:09
_MMA_kwwii: You satisfied?21:10
kwwii_MMA_: yepp, sounds good to me21:10
kwwiiso the last item is the breathe icons21:10
_MMA_No. I added another.21:10
_MMA_You missed that email I guess. :)21:10
kwwiihehe, might have21:10
kwwiitake the mic21:11
_MMA_Questioning what we do and our definition.21:11
Artirand the "what mark wants to see" ?21:11
_MMA_So, What do we do? What is the definition of this team?21:11
_MMA_I'm looking fo opinions here. There has been some chat on the ML already ut lets chat.21:12
kwwiiI think that your email pretty much sums it up21:12
kwwiiI mean, it is not like nothing from the community will make it into the default21:12
* thorwil has to run21:12
kwwiiand it does not mean that people cannot propose things21:12
PicklesworthExperimenting with concepts for Ubuntu's visual design, helping in the creation of themes that fit the Ubuntu desktop well :)21:13
kwwiibut there has to be a certain understanding behind that which is often lacking21:13
kwwiithe real purpose of the team is to create artwork in and around ubuntu21:13
kwwiithat does not mean the team is the ubuntu default artwork team and it was never said to be21:13
_MMA_Which has been the popular misconception.21:13
kwwiiwe even have it on the faq and still get questions21:14
Ken_VEssentially a team that creates art for -potential- inclusion and concepting21:14
kwwiiKen_V: right21:14
_MMA_I think it shoul dbe heavily stressed to any new members we see pop up that we *do not* create the default art.21:15
_MMA_It *can* come from us.21:15
Ken_VUbuntu community Art-Team: "We draw pretty pictures"21:15
_MMA_But that's up to Canonical's discretion.21:15
kwwiiyes, we should make that clear21:15
_MMA_Ken_V: ;)21:15
dilomoWhy not include this in the email all21:15
kwwiiand probably have another mailing list with only people who contribute to the dist to avoid the discussion on this email list21:16
dilomonew users get when subscribed21:16
Ken_VIs there a way to have users auto-emailed whent hey subscribe to the mailing list?21:16
dilomoKen_V: ;)21:16
_MMA_Ok. Ill distill that since there's nobody else chiming in.21:16
Ken_VWith a message containing a link and other information about specifically what we do...21:16
Cimipasta or vegetables for dinner?21:17
kwwii_MMA_: that is a good idea, to include it in the confirmation email21:17
_MMA_Well new users get a welcome email.21:17
_MMA_YEah. But is it a mailman default?21:17
_MMA_Can it be changed for individual lists?21:17
kwwiioh, that is another thing...the leader of the community can also have admin rights to the mailing list so that they can also erase spam twice a week21:17
kwwii_MMA_: yes, it can be changed21:18
_MMA_I get enough with Studio. :)21:18
_MMA_kwwii: Cool. Noted.21:18
kwwiiI don't know how to change it exactly but I know it can be done21:18
_MMA_elmo or Ng should be able to help.21:18
kwwiiso let's get to the icons and get this over with21:18
Ken_Vkwwii +121:18
_MMA_Breathe Icon Set21:19
_MMA_I think most have seen the emails.21:19
_MMA_Anyone here have no clue?21:19
_MMA_https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet https://launchpad.net/breathe-icon-set21:20
_MMA_I haven't made a formal announcement yet.21:20
_MMA_It's still really early and I want to have more of a base set up.21:20
Ken_VI need to update that picture with the sharper folders...21:20
_MMA_Ken_V: On the 1st page, I could be using an old image.21:21
Ken_VNo matter for now. One thing I really want to discuss is the colour pallet21:21
Ken_VSpecifically, I want to eliminate the use of black in the set, but want thoughts on this idea first21:21
_MMA_Lemmie just explain how it works now.21:22
* Ken_V listens intently21:22
* Ken_V listens with eyes, apparently. Has some sort of ear diease21:22
_MMA_We'll have 1 file to create a icon at various sizes.21:22
Ken_VThe template file21:23
_MMA_One Canvas Workflow21:23
Ken_VAlready in use. :)21:23
_MMA_Those will get uploaded to BZR and linked to via Launchpad.21:23
_MMA_So the images yo usee here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons21:24
_MMA_Get updated when we update BZR.21:24
_MMA_So one can see the progression at a glance.21:24
_MMA_A new member can say "I'd like to do this icon".21:25
_MMA_Grab the SVG and submit via the ML for review.21:25
Ken_VSounds like a well laid-out plan.21:26
_MMA_The review will be done by trusted members of our little community.21:26
Ken_VOne thing I would like to is a spec-sheet such as tango has so any reviewers know what to look for.21:26
dilomoCan the wiki use some sort of dynamic background changing21:26
dilomoso that the artists can compare the icons against different colors?21:26
_MMA_Ken_V: Explain.21:27
_MMA_dilomo: Not really. But there's that app that popped up on the wiki we could utilize.21:27
Ken_VIf we have a set of guidelines, then we all know what might be wrong or break the icon sets internal consistancy. Have some sort of review list so those errors can be easily spotted21:27
Ken_VI can also program websites expediently.21:28
* Ken_V just slides that in there tastelessly21:28
_MMA_Ken_V: Well as far as Tango goes, that just color/style guidelines.21:28
_MMA_Naming is all I'm worried about.21:28
Ken_VAh, my concern is heavily on standards...21:29
_MMA_Ken_V: As far as palette, I just don't know. Beyond some mix of Human/Oxygen atm.21:29
_MMA_That could be a long chat. Best for the ML.21:30
Ken_VAnd I can't type that fast.21:30
_MMA_Now as far as perspective, thorwil and I though tto just go with Oxygen for now, and fix where needed.21:30
_MMA_kwwii has said there are perspective issues. So we can address them as we get to those icons.21:31
Artirwho did oxygen?21:31
_MMA_But for the most part there's consistency.21:31
_MMA_Ken_V: I know not. Maybe kwwii can.21:31
Ken_VEither head-on or slight tilt facing down21:31
_MMA_Artir: A mix of people. kwwii being one.21:32
kwwiiArtir: I started the project, there are 4 main artists21:32
Artirget those people on the team asap :)21:32
kwwiihehe, I hired some of them years ago so that we could make oxygen21:33
kwwiiit was, to at least some extent a paid project21:33
Artir canonical have money and they want a good icon theme21:34
_MMA_Ken_V: Part of what I will be doing in the coming weeks/months is putting Oxygen in BZR/wiki and we just start working on replacing. I could use help on this. Should be simple grunt work.21:34
Artirso its possible21:34
Ken_VI should have held out on Breathe then asked for a cheque. :P21:34
_MMA_Artir: This effort is independent of Canonical.21:34
Ken_VGlad to do it. I would like a hand in any guidelines though, if possible21:34
_MMA_Ken_V: Sure.21:34
kwwiiKen_V: I am going to take a whack at editing the folder some to see what I can come up with21:35
Ken_VDo you have the SVG?21:35
_MMA_Ken_V: Its on the wiki. :P21:35
Ken_VI need to clue in. :P21:35
_MMA_Ken_V: But, you did say you were also gonna refine. So, we need to sit down and get you versed in BZR.21:36
Ken_VI can just drunkenly stumble though it, I figure things like that out easily enough.21:37
_MMA_Ok so I've covered 4 points about Breathe.21:37
_MMA_"What Mark would *like* to see."21:37
kwwiithat is all, I think21:37
_MMA_Oh. I did get 5 points.21:37
kwwiiwell, there are certain parts of the human set that mark likes a lot21:37
Ken_VHe survived interrogation?21:37
* Ken_V breaks out interrogation room desk lamp21:38
kwwiiso, I will try to express them, perhaps also by editing the folder a bit to explain what I mean21:38
_MMA_Now this part is dependant on *if* we want to attempt to be default.21:38
_MMA_*If* we wanna work with him.21:38
Ken_VSounds iffy.21:38
_MMA_I have no issue as long as what he wants doesn't mess with the style we decide on.21:39
kwwiiexactly, I am only offering information21:39
kwwiinothing else21:39
_MMA_Like high-gloss on 1 icon where the rest of the set is flat. Or something.21:39
PicklesworthNah, Mark has astoundingly good taste :)21:40
_MMA_hahahah. Funny.21:40
Ken_VMark: "I'm thinking... Lime green with red"21:40
_MMA_Ok. So since there's nothing more constructive. I think we're done.21:40
Picklesworth(Well, he's the best dressed one at a lot of those conferences)21:40
PicklesworthOooh, here's something: I noticed some new sounds coming in from kwii's PPA! I really like the login and logout sounds. We lose a bit of the unusual edge to it, but on the other hand the sound effects are short and unobnoxious. And clean :)21:40
_MMA_Kinda a sloppy overview of what's going on.21:40
PicklesworthCheck out /usr/share/sounds21:41
Ken_VWill Marks stylings be on the mailing list, or will they be elsewhere?21:41
dilomobut these sound are short and the login time is loooong21:41
_MMA_By proxy.21:41
PicklesworthWe dont' want login to be like that prank video with the powerbook!21:42
dilomothe we should make it fast21:42
dilomonot wait 15+ sec21:42
_MMA_I'll try to get this info on the ML ASAP. I need to put more things in place 1st. Should be soon.21:42
kwwiithere is an ubuntu-sounds package in my ppa with new sounds21:42
PicklesworthThere's some stuff going on with sound themes in GNOME, too, involving the Bango project on Freedesktop. It would be nice to have Ubuntu's sound theme completely on top of that! The idea there is that sound themes work more like icon themes, with things like dialog-caution and trash-empty being the actual sound files.21:43
kwwiiPicklesworth: indeed, that would be nice21:43
PicklesworthSince Bango kicked off with a generous fellow's post on Ubuntu Forums, especially21:43
_MMA_Ken_V: I know you have limited availability but can you strive to be responsive to emails on a daily basis? I think the icon effort will require it. A least for a bit.21:43
Ken_VI can. Mostly availablity is limited to time of day.21:44
Ken_VIf you know military-style scheduling, then you have a rough idea of when I can do things.21:44
_MMA_Maybe I can bring Troy back around. ;)21:44
Artirthe new sounds are like baby music XD21:45
_MMA_Ok. I'm done. kwwii?21:45
Artiraltought they're better than the old sounds21:45
dilomoArtir: definitely21:45
_MMA_Ok. I'm gone.21:46
kwwiithanks everyone21:47
kwwiinight all21:47
kwwiihave fun21:47
Ken_Vlaters all21:47
=== RainCT_ is now known as RainCT
ScheissDrogenompaul, whats wrong  ?22:43
ompauljoin #ubuntu-ops please22:44
=== lionel_ is now known as lionel

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