[00:00] I think its meeting time [00:01] good evening Friends [00:01] who's all here for a Kubuntu meeting? [00:01] \o [00:01] here [00:01] here [00:01] Shall I start the meeting? [00:01] i'm here to listen and absorb [00:01] council check [00:02] Nightrose, yuriy? [00:02] nixternal? [00:02] hi [00:02] pong [00:02] bI am here. [00:02] * Nightrose waves [00:02] o/ [00:02] :) [00:02] groovy, memberships first [00:02] \o/ [00:02] Riddell, not going to use moobot? [00:02] I don't know how [00:02] #startmeeting [00:02] Meeting started at 18:02. The chair is Riddell. [00:02] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [00:02] * JontheEchidna apt-get moo's [00:02] #startmeeting [00:02] NCommander, There is already a meeting in progress. [00:02] Damn it [00:03] TOPIC NCommander [00:03] Riddell, [TOPIC] NCommander [00:03] [TOPIC] NCommander [00:03] New Topic: NCommander [00:03] \o/ [00:03] NCommander: who are you and why do you like us? [00:03] I'm Michael Casadevall, I'm a firefighter in Rochester, and I like to help because KDE is the source of some rather interesting FTBFS (that, and I use it on and off as my default DE) [00:03] Oo [00:03] what kind of usability is that? [00:04] apachelogger, what usability? [00:04] NCommander: can I put *ubuntu on my iPhone already? [00:04] I also use KDE and Qt for some development I do on the side, so I have an interest in keeping it running [00:04] apachelogger, I can port it for you, but we're off topic [00:04] _exactly_ [00:05] NCommander: why do compile failures annoy you so much? [00:05] * apachelogger finds that quite topicish [00:05] Riddell, it's not annoy, its fun to fix it. It's something I have a knack for [00:05] and its a good way to contribute since very few people know how to fix FTBFS, and even fewer like to [00:05] NCommander: when did you first get into helping ubuntu? [00:05] you sir, are a nobler man than I [00:05] NCommander: do you expect to become a motu in the future? and if you do, would you spend time reviewing other people's packages on revu? e.g. KDE packages? [00:06] pub 1024D/9DA2DA9B 2008-07-06 [00:06] 07-06-2008 [00:06] apachelogger, I plan to apply for MOTU at the end of september, and for core-dev sometime into intrepid+1's cycle [00:06] apachelogger, I always offer to help review packages on REVU, I was responsible for the first set of upgrades which gave REVU Launchpad intergration, and debrowned it [00:07] (its got a Kubuntu-ish color style now) [00:07] yay for debrowning! [00:07] ok [00:07] final question [00:07] NCommander: when does revu get oxygen icons? [00:07] apachelogger, it already has them [00:08] NCommander: are you already an ubuntu or xubuntu member? (dunno if there is such a thing) [00:08] NCommander: don't see them :( [00:08] * NCommander can't get autocomplete to work [00:08] apachelogger, rainCT said he installed that patch, not sure if he actually rolled to production yet, I'll have to ask [00:08] \o/ [00:08] yuriy, I'm an Xubuntu developer, and have a pending UUC application [00:08] UUC? [00:09] Ubuntu Universe Contributor [00:09] * apachelogger is supporting NCommander's membership [00:09] * JontheEchidna needs to file one [00:09] Riddell: pre-motu [00:09] what's the difference again? [00:09] hm [00:09] sorry for the tardy [00:09] Riddell: UUC is motu-in-training I think [00:09] we talke about that, didn't we [00:09] hey seele [00:09] Riddell: UUC is the developer's member status [00:10] One of my largest goals for Kubuntu and Ubuntu in general is porting it to armel, and m68k :-) [00:10] wasn't enough beurocracy [00:10] yes, and I'm serious on that second one [00:10] yay synaptic [00:10] ah well, if we vote now he might not need it :) [00:10] NCommander: motorola 68k? [00:10] JontheEchidna, m68k :-) [00:10] I'll just need 30 or so emulators to get the build power up [00:10] haha [00:10] NCommander: any advocacy you are doing besides all the great FTBS fixing? [00:10] +1 from me for lots of useful fixes [00:10] I should also note I'm a Debian m68k developer, and a current NM [00:11] I'm also a Debian hurd developer [00:11] +1, We need more low-level dudes in Kubuntu [00:11] I've done some kernel hacking, and gcc love [00:11] and ScottK has learned to corner me for fixing broken libtool and autofunk [00:11] yuriy, Nightrose, seele? [00:11] NCommander: done any of your own packaging? [00:11] Riddell: i don't know what we are talking about [00:12] yuriy, codeblocks, pangomm, both new [00:12] seele: NCommander's membership [00:12] NCommander: any advocacy you are doing besides all the great FTBS fixing? [00:12] yuriy, the entire xfce 4.6 alpha 0 release [00:12] yuriy, (22 packages) [00:12] (repeated since it was missed it seems) [00:12] yuriy, a whole lot of GNOME updates [00:12] kde-meta [00:13] And a load of fixes for kdelibs, kdenetwork (ported it to lpia and amd64), and koffice2 [00:13] I have 36 uploads not counting 20-30 backports [00:13] NCommander: do you know c++? [00:14] * Nightrose feels ignored but gives a +1 anyway for low-level work noone else seems to be too keen on [00:14] C, C++, x86 ASM, avr ASM, m68k ASM, ada, java, python, some perl, PHP, some C# [00:14] ;-) [00:14] Visual Basic [00:14] +1 from me if you fix system settings menu :) [00:14] (maybe, not sure if I still remember it) [00:14] COBOL [00:14] brb [00:14] j/k [00:14] +1 [00:14] I am working to fix the GNAT issues in Hardy ATM [00:14] +1 for lots of important fixes [00:14] (I think I scared -sru off, no one ever tried to upload 12 packages in a single go) [00:14] despite mentioning Visual Basic ;) [00:15] welcome to membership NCommander [00:15] yuriy, I program in real mode x86 ASM [00:15] yuriy, I know no fear :-) [00:15] any other memberships tonight? [00:15] welcome NCommander [00:15] \o/ [00:15] congratz NCommander [00:15] yay at sonicmctails@kubuntu.com! [00:15] kubuntu.org! [00:16] we don't take kindly to .com [00:16] :P [00:16] s/com/org [00:16] apachelogger had some agenda items [00:16] Riddell: let's do UDS/FOSSCamp first [00:16] if that makes sense [00:16] who wants to come to UDS? [00:17] we have had lots of great contibutors doing good stuff this cycle [00:17] I do, but I can't make the date [00:17] * apachelogger can't either [00:17] and it would be great to have lots of you there [00:17] I might be able to do FOSSCamp however [00:17] canonical typically sponsors five or so Kubuntu people [00:17] so don't be shy [00:17] what are the dates for FOSSCamp + UDS? [00:17] hi guys [00:17] sorry im late [00:17] Riddell, I can get sponsorship on both through Xubuntu, so I don't need to take a spot from the Kubuntu team [00:18] yuriy: december 5-6 for fosscamp, the following week for uds [00:18] the process is different this time in that you have to nominate yourself and fill in the form thingy [00:18] which currently requires you to find things you're interested in on brainstorm [00:18] ah so Dec. 8-12 for UDS [00:18] Grumpy Groundhog [00:19] I'm told you can apply with specs and non-brainstorm topic ideas but I havn't had a response from jono to confirm that [00:19] but we'll sort that out [00:19] that's better than what I thought, I thought it was the week after, which is finals [00:19] Riddell, I'd like to submit the through on KDE 4.1 on lpia; ATM, it exists, but its really not in a state great for netbooks [00:19] *thought [00:19] NCommander: go for it [00:19] Riddell: I guess you'll send a mail clearifying this to the list? [00:20] The biggest hold up is we had loads of FTBFS on lpia which finally got cleared up [00:20] apachelogger: clarifying which? [00:20] Riddell, BTW, who adds me to Kubuntu-members? [00:20] Riddell: what stuff can be used for the sponsoring applicatoin [00:20] Riddell: on the process [00:20] NCommander: me [00:20] cool [00:20] apachelogger: I'd like to think jono would [00:21] Riddell: he didnt send a mail to start with [00:21] fair enough :) [00:21] Riddell: so i guess only people who read his blog are invited [00:21] I'd also hope that he or jcastro will let us know the process for FOSSCamp sponsorships [00:21] if there's suggestions of KDE people for that I'd like to hear [00:21] seele: mark mentioned it in his jackalope mail I think [00:22] I'd like to go, but don't think I'd be able to skip the last week of class for it, plus I don't know what discussion I would lead or how much I'll actually be able to contribute in the next 7 months [00:22] seele: or in the case of FOSSCamp, facebook :) [00:22] apachelogger: ah well then everyone must know by now [00:22] * seele hides [00:22] lol [00:22] apachelogger, anyway, if your interested in darwin-arm (iPhone) port of Ubuntu, its quite fessible [00:23] Riddell: you should get aseigo to fosscamp and make him a Kubuntu user again ;-) [00:23] if you want me to look at your application text I'd be happy to do that [00:23] probably also god discussion partner for NCommander about small form factor devices [00:23] I'll probably poke some people later in the week [00:23] let's move on [00:23] Well, for small form factor devices, we need mips and armel ports [00:23] Since most small form are one of those two [00:23] Riddell: it would be helpful that if we dont have to do brainstorm ideas that we have an email to send our "app" to [00:24] hey hey, I am here...my train was a bit late tonight [00:24] Riddell: jjesse said there is a 1000 character limit in the textbox [00:24] seele: yeah, I'll talk to scott when he recovers from illness [00:24] I'm willing to bootstrap the port if possible if someone can scrounge up fast hardware [00:24] * NCommander has a pitifully slow ARM box [00:24] apachelogger: want to do you agenda items? [00:24] * apachelogger pokes JontheEchidna [00:25] ah well, my agenda partner got lost [00:25] The old kubuntu-team is going to become kubuntu-bugs [00:25] apachelogger, as an aside, thanks for random :-P [00:25] NCommander: you're welcome :P [00:26] The list kubuntu-bugs@lists.ubuntu.com is being updated with latest and greatest KDE bugs (by now all of core KDE 4). [00:26] I'll announce it on the list and my blog and the channel when kubuntu-bugs is ready for joiners. [00:27] apachelogger, I'd like to help beta test kubuntu-bugs setup and such [00:27] NCommander: not mutch to test really ;-) [00:28] * NCommander has a few things to bring up once apachelogger is done [00:28] JontheEchidna is doing a lot of work on bug triage, which makes me think that we all should spend a bit more time in malone and triage KDE bugs. A good triaged bug with a appropriate priority and upstram bug watch can help us improve the quality for Intrepid a lot compared to previous series. [00:28] * JontheEchidna is back [00:28] * apachelogger tells JontheEchidna to take over [00:29] Currently fully-triaged modules in Malone/Launchpad include: [00:29] ok, anything else? [00:29] kdebase-workspace [00:29] kdebase-runtime [00:29] kde4libs [00:29] adept [00:29] What we really need help in are: [00:29] -kdepim [00:29] -kdebase, though it is getting better [00:29] oh wow [00:29] * Riddell seconds wow [00:29] as an aside, I recommend setting up ccache if you are going to work on kdepim due to the build time of that beast [00:30] Volunteers please poke JontheEchidna or me for help or introduction. [00:30] JontheEchidna++ apachelogger++ [00:30] bah ccache :P [00:30] Most of the -kde4 packages have had all of the bugs that are still relevant have been moved to their normal packages [00:30] Developers should take a look at the fully triaged modules and nominate stuff for Intrepid where it makes sense. [00:30] debuild -nc && dh_install --list-missing --sourcedir=debian/tmp [00:31] Comments about bugs? [00:31] nixternal, why list missing, why not fail-missing [00:31] have you noticed much in the way of apport bugs since we turned it on for KDE? [00:31] you get the same thing [00:31] nixternal, fail-missing makes sure you properly add install lines for everything [00:32] ahem, topic [00:32] sorry [00:32] Riddell: Not really. [00:32] --list-missing has yet to fail me now in the many many years of using it [00:32] However, apport has a problem with retracing. [00:32] apachelogger: I wonder if that means nobody is using alphas or if KDE 4 just doesn't crash [00:32] Riddell: apport has been failing to retrace lately [00:32] a lot [00:32] retracing? [00:32] It appears to me that apport can't retrace a crash if it was detected in a wrong binary package. [00:33] e.g. a crash is filed against phonon while it is happening in libxine, there is a good chance retracing is going to fail. [00:33] Riddell: Know anything about this? [00:33] nope [00:33] pitti is the dude for apport details [00:34] We'll do some investigation on this and poke him if it really seems to be the wrong binary package that caues the retrace to fail. [00:34] so we'll need to bug him about that (no pun intended) [00:34] are you seeing it for Hardy or Intrepid? [00:34] NCommander: apport retraces crashes on LP if the reporting system was missing debugging symbols [00:34] james_w: Intrepid [00:34] apachelogger, ah, that sounds about right [00:35] apachelogger: does it set "apport-failed-retrace" or they just don't get looked at? [00:35] james_w: it does set it [00:36] ah, ok. Maybe some KDE-related dbgsym package is un-installable. pitti or seb128 will be able to investigate [00:36] I've seen plenty of bugs get retraced in the last couple of days, so it's not a global problem I don't think [00:37] next item? [00:37] upgrade testing [00:37] I plan to do lots of that next week [00:37] * vorian comes in late [00:37] is there an upgrade path for people with -kde4 packages installed? [00:37] I can attest that the upgrade was a mess, but that was more than likely due to KDE 3 and 4 being installed on my machine [00:37] I'd like to invite everyone to do upgrade testing hardy -> intrepid [00:38] well [00:38] yuriy, we could make the path with a LOT of virtual packages [00:38] I'd like to have as many reports on this as possible [00:38] wrong configuration updates in KDE 3 -> KDE 4 [00:38] yuriy: that should be handled by the distupgrade tool but only for the last few days [00:38] replaces/conflicts doesn't handle stuff like that? [00:38] apachelogger: I'll try to add a few [00:38] or file conflicts in packages [00:38] just anything you got [00:38] yuriy, maybe [00:38] As of today VirtualBox should work with Intrepid again. [00:39] the best thing to do is backup your stuff, go out to tty, kill kdm, rm -rf ~/.kde*, --purge remove all the old KDE stuff and then do an upgrade, then install kde4 [00:39] virtual packages will be the way to go [00:39] nixternal: it really shouldn't be like that [00:39] I suggest installing a plain KDE 3 hardy and a plain KDE 4 hardy, creating VM snapshots of both, and then test scenarios [00:39] Riddell: it was last week when I tried on a machine at work [00:39] apachelogger: good plan [00:39] To speed up package download I can suggest apt-cacher (proxy for APT) [00:39] apachelogger: that is a smoke test plan setup for failure though, as nobody is using plain this or that [00:39] You can find a howto for it @ help.ubuntu.com [00:40] nixternal: Plain as a basis to revert to [00:40] I recommend setting up virtual box, and then installing everything you have locally, then copying ~/ to vbox and then try [00:40] and first plain has to work before more complicated stuff can [00:40] Plain works pretty well from what I have seen [00:41] upgrading recommends of kubuntu-desktop doesn't work yet, but otherwise it should be ok [00:41] I'll try to write a short guide on upgrade testing within the next few days. [00:41] you might be interested in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2008-August/026017.html [00:41] Comments on upgrade testing? [00:42] I would rather see a much steeper plan for testing than a basic one...I think in the past the basic tests have come back to bite us at times [00:42] james_w: thanks, bookmarked :) [00:42] i have no problem doing it on an actual partition [00:42] oh [00:42] Right! [00:42] on a related topic, we got the ok for 8.04 to 9.04 upgrades this afternoon [00:42] Another important test case it o actually install on your PC/Laptop [00:43] there's a bit of thinking into how to make that actually happen, but it should work [00:43] Riddell: Cool :) [00:43] When you install Intrepid on your PC/Laptop give the application a fancy use case test. [00:44] Like take your Laptop to all sorts of places with all sorts of different printer setup ans try to hook it up. [00:44] apachelogger: that is something we need to come up with...we need to come up with a bunch of use cases and smoke testing standards [00:44] how many here have been doing any sort of regression testing? [00:44] Or get a clean profile and try using features you normaly wouldn't use. [00:44] nixternal: Do you have time to write something? [00:45] oh [00:45] * apachelogger can certainly document the scenarios he did so far. [00:45] before we hit the next topic should we go through the todo list? [00:45] apachelogger: I could make some...I am finalizing use cases and smoke test plans for a work project and I see how much of a difference they make when it comes to QA and bug triage [00:45] next topic is jaunty? then yes [00:45] I have a topic to add as well, actually a super call-for-help [00:46] yuriy: last it is [00:46] I will do that last but I will need everyones help probably [00:46] Any more comments on upgrade testing? [00:46] so since we were talking about testing.. what is left on the ToDo list? what wont make it? [00:46] who's doing the test cases? [00:46] nixternal and me [00:46] seele: something you're concerned about on the todo list? [00:46] vorian: they need to be established first... seele, you have any UI test cases I could use as a basis? [00:47] In fact everyone could document what they are doing [00:47] the UI ones I am using at work are web based cases [00:47] nixternal: yes, that's what i meant, sorry [00:47] yuriy: no, i was just wonder where we were [00:47] there hasn't been a complete go through of the todo for a while afaik [00:47] i know JontheEchidna had gone through some parts [00:47] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo seems fairly up to date [00:47] What's the status on ubinity's KDE4 port? [00:47] I dunno if someone started working on this or not [00:48] ubiquity you mean? [00:48] er, yeah [00:48] NCommander: not heard of any change [00:48] I looked and played with the source [00:48] haha, had me confused for a second [00:48] seele: it should be pretty much up-to-date [00:48] The port should be straightforward enough [00:48] NCommander: the ubiquity code is very easy [00:48] NCommander: yes it would be pretty quick [00:48] It's a single file that needs a rewrite [00:48] a couple things on there.. userconfig unfortunately I haven't had time for [00:48] not a rewrite [00:48] Riddell: what's left with system-config-printer-kde? [00:48] kcmrandr I am concerned about [00:48] it does _work_ to an extent [00:48] seele: lots I'm afraid [00:48] NCommander: just porting from Q* to K* [00:48] seele: lots of features missing, lots of usability stuff to do, lots of code tidying to do [00:49] I can't find much in terms of docs on python-kde4 [00:49] but it's buggy and I haven't seen any way to configure dual head [00:49] NCommander: like using a KProcess instead of a QProcess [00:49] seele: the basics work and it's in upstream KDE for 4.2 [00:49] I have to admit, KDE 4 + xrandr on a dual monitor setup == flawless for me...I totally love how I can change the wallpaper on each monitor...let me see another de or windows do that :) [00:49] NCommander: there's documentation at reverbankcomputing [00:49] NCommander: and mostly you can just use api.kde.org [00:49] yuriy, link? [00:50] I'll take a second look at it [00:50] yuriy: that now includes sime's pykde api docs [00:50] *riverbank [00:50] Riddell: so it just needs tested? [00:50] oh, well then ^^ [00:50] seele: testing is nice but mostly it needs more developer time [00:50] NCommander: http://techbase.kde.org/Development/Languages/Python [00:50] ack, so there's broken stuff? or just missing stuff? [00:50] Do we want to remove raw Qt support from Ubiquity in favor or KDE4, or support both if possible [00:50] seele: just missing [00:51] well that's better than broken.. :-/ [00:51] NCommander: let's do this out of meeting [00:51] ah, ok [00:52] we've had less coding team members this cycle (but lots more packaging going on) so stuff from KubuntuIntrepidDefaults remains undone [00:52] *adds new agenda item about that* [00:53] Oh right. [00:53] Riddell: I can do some coding [00:53] [IDEA] Work on KubuntuIntrepidDefaults coding [00:53] IDEA received: Work on KubuntuIntrepidDefaults coding [00:53] C++ or Python, your choice :) [00:53] We don't have a mountconfig port on the way, do we? [00:53] nope [00:53] is smarter here? [00:53] I did the Xfce 4.6 exit dialog, I can maybe work on doing it on KDE, but I honestly don't use Qt so my basis is limited [00:53] I'd like to suggest mountmanager as replacement [00:53] seele: he is in bed [00:53] hrm [00:54] I always think of mountconfig has being a feature failure, users shouldn't have to care about fstab [00:54] is kvkbd supposed to be an access tool or onscreen keyboard for tablets? [00:54] seele: access tool [00:54] apachelogger: the mountmanager UI is really bad, looks like it was designed by an engineer: http://img.flashtux.org/img13269103725x67eec7f8.png [00:54] seele: accesilibility primarily [00:54] I think it is dead though, I haven't spoken to the dev in a while now [00:54] Riddell: people should be able to mount their networked discs, though [00:54] goatsocks: well, I share Riddell's opinion on fstab stuff [00:54] apachelogger: not to mention it uses qt4 but somehow doesn't pick up my kde style or qt4 style, and uses its own fonts and plastik [00:54] nixternal: it got ported and smarter asked me to look at it the other day [00:54] mhb: we have KDE ways of doing that [00:55] goatsocks: doesn't here, might be sudo related [00:55] for home network use cases anyway [00:55] Riddell: do you? [00:55] network:/ [00:55] you can do that through Dolphin, can't you? [00:55] Riddell: well then they never were well presented, I guess. [00:55] seele: network in the sidebar ;-) [00:55] mhb: no I think that could be done better [00:55] Riddell: and of course, having a KDE-only way is silly, and should not be preferred. [00:56] hehe, I see I am not the only one using skulpture theme [00:56] apachelogger: yes, i dont use it, i just thought it did exist [00:56] people also use non-KDE apps, like OO, keep that in mind, please. [00:56] hotplug mounting is best handled by either kwikdisk (shipped with kdeutils) or the device notifier plasmoid [00:56] mhb: we'll have to fix that ;) [00:56] mhb: last I checked ooo supports most of the slaves somewhat [00:57] like smb:/ seems to be working IIRC [00:57] apachelogger: who's advocating that we include mount manager? [00:58] me I guess ;-) [00:58] apachelogger: what's your rationale? [00:58] yuriy: I'm not sure we should - I wouldn't like a one-colour world [00:58] We don't have a mount manager right now [00:58] apachelogger: but what's the usecase for you? [00:58] sure we do, it's called the user :P [00:58] I think everyone needs to learn udev rules [00:59] Riddell: Advanced users might want to fiddle with their fstab, we should give them a tool to do that. [00:59] apachelogger: advanced users would edit /etc/fstab? [01:00]