/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/09/17/#ubuntu-artwork.txt

rsc_guys help. anyone know GTK theming here? my theme fails when the colors are set to default. "Invalid symbolic color 'fg_color'"03:28
dilomoanybody knows how to theme the notification balloon here:11:11
dilomohttp://launchpadlibrarian.net/17688393/Screenshot.png11:11
=== cody-somerville_ is now known as cody-somerville
cody-somervilledilomo, yup11:36
cody-somervilleYou need to modify the source code11:36
dilomowhat source code?11:37
dilomoof Rhythmnox?11:37
cody-somervilleno11:37
cody-somervilleof the notification-daemon11:37
dilomoRhythmbox*11:37
dilomoexplain11:37
cody-somervillenotification-daemon is responsible for those pop-ups11:38
dilomoyes but can't I change their color without11:38
dilomomodifying the src but11:38
dilomowith using gtkrc match patterns?11:38
cody-somervilleI'm sure you can.11:38
dilomocan you give me a tip or smth11:39
dilomoor pint me to the source code11:39
dilomoso that I can look up for the names11:40
cody-somervilleat the command line, type: apt-get source notification-daemon11:40
dilomothanks11:41
dilomoI will try to do something11:41
dilomobbl11:41
dilomoI'm trying this:12:15
dilomowidget_class "*NotifyDaemon*" style :highest "newwave-notify-daemon"12:15
dilomobut it doesn't work.12:15
dilomoAny ideas?12:15
=== andreasn_ is now known as andreasn
andreasnit should be possible to set the theme used in gconf12:18
zniavreisn't just >widget_class "*notif*" 12:19
dilomoprobably but I need something that can change it from the gtkrc12:19
andreasnI'm not sure that is possible currently12:19
dilomozniavre: I will try12:19
andreasnbut I could be wrong12:20
dilomoandreasn: theming is hard task12:20
dilomozniavre: I had different style for the "*notif*"12:24
dilomoactually the panel style12:24
dilomobut it doesn't seem that the notify has these colors12:25
dilomohere's example:12:25
dilomo http://launchpadlibrarian.net/17688393/Screenshot.png12:25
Cimi_Still not in love with that menubar12:28
Cimi_also I'm not convinced on the statusbar12:29
Cimi_te icon theme should be much more sharp/contrasted12:29
Cimi_given the high contrast of new wave12:29
dilomoCimi: I know about the icons12:30
Cimi_use tango12:30
dilomobut i don't have time for them12:30
dilomowhy are you not convinced about the statusbar12:31
Cimi_it looks washed out12:31
dilomoand the menu?12:33
Cimi_haven't seen12:36
dilomoI meant the menubar12:36
Cimi_I really can't stand why we should copy osx with those dark menubars12:36
dilomothis is not a copy but a usability feature12:38
dilomothat allows you to concentrate on the contents12:38
dilomoand your actual work not the menu and menubar12:38
Cimi_well12:39
Cimi_having a dark menubar is concentrating you to the menubar, not the contents12:39
Cimi_so is is less usable12:39
dilomohave you tried it out?12:39
Cimi_when I see those screenshots, I'm noticing the dark menubar at first12:39
dilomoit actually works and all the people I have asked say it works12:39
Cimi_this is just suggestion imho12:40
dilomoprobably this is a first impression but12:40
Cimi_http://www.trackback.it/wp-galleryo/le-nuove-feature-di-snow-leopard/snow-leopard-versione.jpg12:40
Cimi_as osx12:40
dilomoit works for me12:40
Cimi_dark menubar12:40
dilomowell thats toolbar and titlebar but12:41
Cimi_same thing12:41
Cimi_osx toolbar = out menubar12:41
Cimi_*our12:41
Cimi_since osx doesn't have a menubar in the window12:42
Cimi_just be honest and say *well I was inspired*12:42
Cimi_no one is killing you for inspirations :)12:42
dilomono I haven't had inspiration from mac12:43
dilomoif you had carefully12:43
Cimi_I'm just disappointed that we have three themes in the community artworks and all of these have this osx menubar12:43
dilomoread the mailing list you had probably12:43
dilomonoticed that it all started just like an experiment12:44
dilomoway back in April or May12:44
Cimi_ok12:44
andreasnCimi_: I think the drawback of using this kind of combined toolbar/titlebar is that on Mac OS X you can click and drag on the whole area, where with Metacity/GTK+ you can't12:44
andreasn(as far as I know)12:45
Cimi_yeah12:45
Cimi_this concerns usability12:45
Cimi_that's why in gnome the unfocused metacity still has the frame/border12:45
Cimi_so12:45
Cimi_-1 for the community themes12:46
dilomowell you should try it out and then speak12:46
andreasnit looks slick though12:46
Cimi_dilomo, it is a real issue12:46
Cimi_you can't know when the titlebar starts12:46
dilomohttp://img28.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=88676_NewWave_test_03_122_1054lo.jpg12:46
dilomoit looked like this12:46
dilomobefore to make this gnoem "usability" thing12:47
Cimi_this should be more usable12:47
dilomobut everybody has taste12:47
dilomoand I'm not making theme for visual invalids that12:47
Cimi_because now you can see where the titlebar starts12:47
Cimi_so you know where to place your pointer in order to move the window12:48
dilomocannot distinguish what's in front of them12:48
dilomowell if I had make this12:48
Cimi_and with a touchpad could be a trouble if you don't know where's the titlebar because it looks merged with the menubar12:48
dilomowe would have sticked to old look from 199012:48
dilomomaybe it is not perfect now but that's not because I want it to be such12:49
dilomobut because the software does not allow me to do it right12:49
Cimi_but now we are 1980 from an usability point ov view with those themes, then12:49
Cimi_anyway, having a separated window border doesn't mean *1990*12:50
Cimi_it just doesn't mean *osx*12:50
Cimi_oh yeah, you're not copying osx *LOL*12:50
andreasndilomo: I don't think Cimi is saying that you _have_ to make them distinguished, I mean, it's totally up to you, but it might end up with people using the theme sitting in front of their computers cursing because they miss the area where they are supposed to hit to move the window as it don't have any visual indication where to aim12:51
dilomoaim at the title tex12:51
dilomotext*12:51
Cimi_yeah12:51
dilomoand you are right12:52
Cimi_do this with a touchpad12:52
Cimi_gh12:52
dilomoandreasn: I wish I could make it better either by12:52
dilomohaving a very simple patch that allows for the user to click the menu and drag the window12:52
dilomoor by making inactive windows have their menu transparent12:53
Cimi_also the 1px border on the borders of the window is copying osx12:53
andreasndilomo: I spoke to rhult, a GTK+ developer, and he said it would be a bit tricky to do (or impossible?) as window managment on OSX and GNOME works totally different12:53
Cimi_also12:54
Cimi_rhult is the developer of the gtk+ port over osx12:54
Cimi_so he knows those terms12:54
dilomoI have tried to report the bug ages ago12:55
Cimi_dilomo, 1px border on the sides makes the window _Really_ difficult to resize12:55
andreasnanyway, I don't think this is such a big deal really. I would kick and scream if this was the default that was being distributed to 10 million users, but it's just a community theme12:55
dilomoand somewhere on gnome's bugzilla12:55
dilomoand there was that patch12:55
andreasnthat made it work? oh.12:56
andreasnurl?12:56
dilomoI will try to search but I'm not sure12:56
dilomoI will find it12:56
dilomoas to the one pixel borders12:56
dilomothat is an issue of the window manager12:57
dilomoand you have a 5px border at the bottom12:57
dilomohere we go:13:00
dilomohttp://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=500437)13:00
ubottuGnome bug 500437 in general "Grab and Move a Window from Unused MenuBar and ToolBar Area." [Minor,Unconfirmed]13:00
dilomothe menubar drag13:00
dilomoyeah :)\13:00
dilomoandreasn: what do you think?13:07
andreasnI have to think about it. There seems to be both pros and cons of the approach. Probably need to ask a UI designer for input.13:09
dilomowell wouldn't it be possible to be controlled13:10
dilomofrom the gtkrc file?13:10
dilomosmth like this gtk-enable-animations = 113:10
dilomobut regarding menus13:10
andreasnso there would be one behavior with one theme, but another behavior if you switched to another? sounds a bit eeeky to me.13:11
dilomowell it depends on the look of the theme13:13
dilomoplus a global override setting can be preset13:13
kwwiidilomo: I was working on a new package, where is your latest stuff?13:34
dilomoonly on LP13:34
Cimi_dilomo, in the statusbar you can do vertical resizing13:49
Cimi_so your metacity is actually less usable13:49
Cimi_for horizontal resizing13:50
dilomobe happy man13:50
dilomoI don't want to argue with you13:50
dilomoif you have will you will find a way, you know ;)13:50
thorwilbonjour!14:00
_MMA_Guten Tag14:01
dilomoДобър ден! :)14:03
kwwiimoin moin14:03
lucazadeciao!14:03
dilomo:-D14:04
Cimi_dilomo, I am happy. I'm just trying to teach you that you should take care of those usability issues if you want to make in the future a theme that is something more than a simple community theme14:14
Cimi_usability should always be more important than appearance14:15
_MMA_Cimi_: Usability strongly depends on audience.14:15
thorwilusability and appearance are not separated14:15
dilomoI agree with all of you14:16
_MMA_What's "usable" for some, is not for others. There's no such thing as universal usability.14:16
Cimi__MMA_, those two issues I've claimed are not depending on the audience... because almost everyone is resizint the windows14:16
Cimi_oh no _MMA_ , there is :)14:16
Cimi_talk to calum benson14:16
Cimi_usability engineer @ Sun14:16
kwwiiusability is a metric not a state14:17
kwwiiit is an action not something you achieve14:17
_MMA_No. It's a complete dilution. And since your English and my Italian skills aren't the best, it's not something we should get into.14:17
thorwilthere just happens to be issues that are the same or similar for all people within a very large group :)14:17
Cimi__MMA_, I understand english very well, I'm just in trouble when comes to write complex paragraphs14:18
dilomoUsability is if people like to use their themes14:18
_MMA_thorwil: Sure, like I said: "There's no such thing as *universal usability*." Nothing is one-size-fits-all.14:18
dilomoand despite of the minor glitches they are happy14:19
* _MMA_ notes the Studio theme. ;)14:19
Cimi_the fact is that with dilomo I've had a discussion like that "with your theme it is difficult to move a window" "no people don't move windows", "with your theme you can't do horizontal resize" "no people won't resize their windows"14:20
thorwil_MMA_: yes, exactly. there's a reason i included a definition of usability with context in my text :)14:20
* thorwil -> coffee14:20
dilomoAs I said I won't argue anymore14:21
dilomo:) - remember14:22
_MMA_Cimi_: Well, though true (and I would suggest a heavier border myself) if dilomo knows his audience, and caters to them, that's fine. If people don't like it, they won't use it. Simple.14:22
lucazadeappereance and usability depends on razionality in my opinion14:22
Cimi__MMA_, ok14:22
Cimi_as andreasn said "I don't think this is such a big deal really. I would kick and scream if this was the default that was being distributed to 10 million users, but it's just a community theme"14:23
Cimi_I must quote him14:24
dilomoMe too "(14,46,33) andreasn: it looks slick though"14:24
Cimi_kwwii, I've talked with asac about the firefox patch, it will be fixed for beta1, so I will fix for the default theme14:25
kwwiiCimi_: excellent14:26
kwwiiCimi_: I guess it is safe for me to make another murrine svn snapshot14:27
kwwii?14:27
Cimi_yeah, also please remove style = MURRINE, not rename it to profile14:27
Cimi_I've written an email to the mailing list14:28
Cimi_I would like to have your opinions on that matter14:28
kwwiiright, in the current version which I am preparing we have commented that out14:28
Cimi_@kwwii, _MMA_ , dilomo , thorwil ... who wants :)14:28
* _MMA_ has commented it out.14:28
_MMA_Cimi_: It will break alot of themes on GNOME-Look as many are writing for SVN now. SO I would make an announcement there or on you blog about the change.14:29
andreasnhum, I tend to get quoted today14:30
andreasn:)14:30
dilomo:)14:30
dilomoCimi: btw when is that argb going to be real?14:30
dilomoI mean upstream14:31
Cimi__MMA_, yeah you're right14:31
Cimi_dilomo, you mean the engine or the gtk patches?14:31
dilomothe patches14:31
dilomobecause as far as I know they are the hard thing14:32
dilomonot all developers are willing to include them14:32
Cimi_within 6 months or 1 year14:32
Cimi_dilomo, no, that's not true14:32
dilomook cool14:32
dilomo:)14:33
Cimi_please notice that RGBA doesn't mean transparency14:33
Cimi_it just means *please give us another channel, over red green and blue, give us !alpha!*14:33
Cimi_and then the engine coders could take care of it or no14:33
dilomointeresting14:34
thorwilhmm, so that channel could be for octarine instead of alpha :)14:37
andreasnanyway, I don't care about usability this or usability that, a design decision is a design decision with pros and cons14:38
andreasnhttp://mpt.net.nz/archive/2008/08/11/usability is great reading, so is The Design of Everyday Things14:39
andreasnback to work14:39
thorwilthe later is the greater reading ^^14:39
thorwil_MMA_: so, do you think i should move kyudo to the wiki already?14:41
_MMA_thorwil: um, um, um... gimmie a sec. Gotta handle the kids here. :)14:42
thorwilheh, ok14:42
dilomoandreasn: nice one14:46
kwwiiok, I just almost everything in my PPA14:48
kwwiimost all of it is for hardy and intrepid14:48
* thorwil hands kwwii an "updated"14:48
_MMA_thorwil kwwii whoever: Can we have an impromptu meeting in say, 45 mins to discuss kyudo and it's would-be impact on the communities future?14:49
thorwil_MMA_: ok with me. for the whoever, the only other one known to be knowing about it is troy14:50
thorwiltalking about http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Et-w-/%2Bjunk/kyudo/download/9/project_kyudo.txt-20080829180050-1jvy5xri2xm1fogv-1/project_kyudo.txt?file_id=project_kyudo.txt-20080829180050-1jvy5xri2xm1fogv-114:51
_MMA_thorwil: np. We can use this to get others up to speed. :) But as far as this being on the wiki, I would say putting it on its own page for people to look over would be great. I also think it would lower the barrier for collaboration a bit.14:51
kwwii_MMA_: yepp, let's skype first :-)14:52
thorwil_MMA_: the only reason it is not on the wiki is that didn't want easy access for everyone. up to now ;)14:52
_MMA_thorwil: Sure. I get it. :) So I say go ahead for its own page. And we can go on from there to see if we can officially adopt it as a design guideline for the community.14:53
_MMA_kwwii: Ok. Say, in 30?14:53
* _MMA_ really needs to straiten the house before he sits on the computer all day. :P14:54
kwwii_MMA_: yepp14:55
kwwii_MMA_: do we want to ping jono?14:55
kwwiitoday is his birthday I here14:55
kwwiihear14:56
_MMA_kwwii: If that's the purpose of the Skype chat I think today, and the coming days will be difficult to chat with him.14:57
* _MMA_ is away for 30 mins or so.15:02
Cimi_dilomo, new wave looks good, compliments15:04
dilomoI can't understand15:05
Cimi_?15:05
dilomowell just before some time15:05
Cimi_I've just tried it15:05
dilomoyou were saying it is bad15:05
Cimi_=)15:05
Cimi_no15:05
dilomowell  thank you :)15:06
Cimi_I have said I don't like notebooks and menubars15:06
Cimi_and I can confirm that I don't like them15:06
Cimi_dilomo, the theme lacs of the focus on the norebook15:06
Cimi_*lacks15:07
dilomook now (as you have tried the theme) I can say15:07
dilomoI agree with you to some degree15:07
dilomothe tabs may change because they look somehow strange15:07
dilomobut the menusystem is not (only in Ibex the main menu will become light)15:08
Cimi_have you tried reducing the contrast of the buttons and other styles?15:08
Cimi_s/styles/widgets15:08
dilomowhy?15:08
Cimi_for trying15:09
Cimi_people seems to like low-contrasted themes15:09
Cimi_(just take a look @ oxygen)15:09
dilomoI have but15:09
dilomoi didn't like how it looked15:10
Cimi_oh ok15:10
thorwilcontrast is a difficult topic because it is strongly affected by the display, display settings and environment /lighting conditions)15:11
Cimi_exactly15:11
Cimi_thorwil, but New Wave borders are really contrasted15:11
dilomowhen you decrease the contrast of your laptop you will get better image ;)15:12
dilomowell there should be all kinds of themes15:12
Cimi_I'm using a professional colorimeter to adjust the display to standards15:12
Cimi_I won't change them :)15:12
* thorwil bows before Cimi_ 15:13
dilomook that was just a joke15:13
dilomoIn my next themes I will take your tip under consideration15:15
Cimi_oh15:16
Cimi_a gimp mockup15:16
Cimi_DEFAULT (high): http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/175266/Screenshots/high-contrast.png15:17
Cimi_MEDIUM: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/175266/Screenshots/medium-contrast.png15:17
Cimi_LOW: http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/175266/Screenshots/less-contrast.png15:17
dilomothe low is too washed out15:18
dilomomaybe smth between Default and medium will be good15:19
kwwiiyeah, I think so too :-)15:19
* Cimi_ give a kiss to his high-contrast monitor :)15:19
Cimi_here the contrast is still high on the low, this confirms what thorwil said15:19
Cimi_s/give/gives15:20
Cimi_when'll start writing in english without making mistakes?15:20
dilomowhen the pc starts to write from our voice  ;)15:21
Cimi_it should translates my italian, then15:22
Cimi_:)15:22
dilomowow that would be perfect15:22
dilomotalk native write in English15:23
Cimi_there was a fun video about speech control15:23
dilomohaha15:24
Cimi_dilomo, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GCSgkUnlGGA15:26
Cimi_it simply doesn't work!15:27
Cimi_it is so fun when he repeat the commands because it didn't work15:27
dilomoI'm wondering if the program learns form him15:28
dilomothen it will be unable to recognize native English :)15:28
Cimi_when he says "cut"15:29
Cimi_2.20 minutes15:29
Cimi_AHAHAHAH15:29
dilomo:D15:29
_MMA_Hi Conn15:30
dilomoits fun indeed15:30
psyke83hi15:30
_MMA_psyke83: When you can, please email me the latest revisions to the Studio theme with Cimi's new recommendations/fixes.15:31
Cimi_psyke83, do not rename style to profil15:31
Cimi_*e15:31
Cimi_remove it instead15:31
psyke83Cimi_: in the revisions I sent to Ken, I simply commented the line15:32
psyke83Cimi_: is that the only recommendation you made? I didn't see your original note15:33
dilomohey psyke83 do you know how to theme the notify balloons from within the gtkrc file?15:36
psyke83dilomo: I haven't checked them, but they inherit the tooltip colours, don't they?15:37
dilomoyes but not all  of them15:37
dilomolook here : http://launchpadlibrarian.net/17688393/Screenshot.png15:37
dilomothe color on the left is ugly15:37
* thorwil pokes _MMA_ 15:41
psyke83dilomo: that's libnotify, and AFAIK it doesn't support theming yet. See: http://trac.galago-project.org/ticket/12215:47
dilomowow opened 2 years ago15:48
dilomoI guess that it won't be fixed at least in a year :)15:49
dilomoat least it can be made to pick better colors not hardcore them15:49
Cimi_psyke83, but ubuntu is theming it16:07
Cimi_there's a setting in gconf16:07
Cimi_/apps/notification-daemon/theme16:08
dilomoI looked through the src code and the new style is complicated c code16:19
dilomowhich means I can't use it from the gtkrc file16:20
=== Cimi__ is now known as Cimi
Cimiof course you can't, but maybe should be possible to write that them in C16:22
CimiI mean, of couse you can't theme it with the gtkrc only16:23
dilomoIt's too complicated for me as I've never code visual gtk stuff16:24
dilomoI prefer to wait the day when I will be able to set it up from within gtkrc16:24
Cimianyway the default theme looks better than the ubuntu's16:25
Cimiyou could use gconftool to replace it16:25
dilomoyeah looks better now16:28
dilomoit's too edgy16:28
dilomobut better16:28
thorwil_MMA_: any caveats i should know of when creating that wiki page?16:41
psyke83_MMA_: sent the update a little while ago, btw.16:44
_MMA_psyke83: Got it.16:44
psyke83Cimi: it was just the "style = MURRINE" that needed removal?16:44
Cimiyeah16:44
_MMA_thorwil: Not really. I can clean up anything if you need help later.16:44
Cimipsyke83, read here http://www.cimitan.com/murrine/project/murrine/development16:46
Cimiso you can stay up-to-date16:46
psyke83Cimi: great, thanks16:46
Cimipsyke83, it automatically updates from SVN16:54
DanaGOh yeah, have you heard of HP's new DreamColor display?  30-bit color depth.  I wonder if Linux supports that...16:55
DanaGHeh, when on KDE (such as on the lab computers at school, since their Gnome is freakishly old), I often use the HighColor Classic theme, with the KDE2 windeco.17:00
thorwilis there a content license implied on the wiki?17:06
_MMA_Not that I know of.17:08
_MMA_People have put licenses on pages though.17:08
thorwil_MMA_: should we apply CC-BY-SA?17:10
_MMA_At your discretion. Think about it's future use.17:10
_MMA_SA is fine by me though.17:10
thorwil_MMA_, kwwii: i will stop editing for a while now: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines17:32
* _MMA_ bookmarks17:33
thorwil_MMA_: you are listed as technical lead with link to your wiki page :)17:34
_MMA_:P17:35
* thorwil considers changing that into lead gurner17:36
_MMA_thorwil: *Added Table of Contents. See what you think.17:50
thorwil_MMA_: that's good. though that page might see quite some splitting up17:51
thorwil_MMA_: what happened to the first headline?17:51
_MMA_Ot was pushing the 1st section of text way down. Try it if you like.17:53
thorwilno need, this stuff makes jan tschichold cry, anyway :)17:54
_MMA_s/Ot/It17:55
thorwilhttp://leogg.wordpress.com/2008/09/16/sfd-2008-artwork/17:59
_MMA_thorwil: I was gonna contact him. I don't know if he speaks English. "Byron"18:01
kwwiiI bet he speaks spanish pretty well though :p18:02
_MMA_Si18:03
* thorwil -> dinner18:04
kwwiiyeah, time for band practice...bbl18:05
stemount^e me!18:11
* thorwil builds an archer20:05
nandOo20:08
DanaGOniasdfasdfas dfasdcaefrawe araghh lagggg20:19
nandSo do I20:20
PRGUY85what did you all think of new wave's new metacity?21:04
__mikemthe new human theme is nice but the round corners on the windows still have pixelation and it still feels arhaic23:51
kwwiido you mean the newhuman theme or the new "human" theme?23:55
kwwiiie the dark one or the light one?23:55
kwwiiand which background are you using with it?23:55
__mikemkwwii: newhuman23:56
__mikemI am using the background with the firebird thing23:56

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.7 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!