/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/09/21/#ubuntu-devel.txt

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cjwatsonNCommander: it's the base-passwd maintainer you need to ask (aka me :-)), not base-files00:27
NCommanderack00:27
* NCommander hides from cjwatson's all mightly passwd-foo00:27
cjwatsonI get about one mail every couple of months asking for new static assignments, I think00:27
cjwatsonI probably accept about half of them, and advise the rest that they can use dynamic ids instead00:28
NCommandercjwatson, the question was for NM, not because I was packaging anything ;-)00:28
cjwatsonso a homework question, you mean? ;-)00:28
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TheMusoslangasek: ardour already had an upload done for that, but ardour FTBF for crazy scons reasons.05:42
TheMusoFTBFs05:42
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slangasekTheMuso: hrm; I didn't notice that it was out of date on all archs :/06:33
slangasekTheMuso: so, how do we fix it to not use scons? :-)06:35
TheMusoslangasek: Yeah, persia previsouly did an upload for that same thing, but it FTBFs, which we are still trying to work out.06:35
TheMusoslangasek: Rewrite the build system for the package? :)06:35
* TheMuso notes that it used to use autoconf, but that was a few years ago.06:36
TheMusoslangasek: I was pondering simply not using scons for the install, but scons still builds important package files in that state, such as translation files etc, which IMO really should be done in the build stage. So I am not sure where to go from here atht emoment.06:39
slangasekI still like "replace the build system" better than the alternatives :-P06:40
TheMusoslangasek: So do I, but I don't think thats realistic before beta.06:41
slangasekpitti: when you say hal has "tons of fdi files"... were are they?  I only see vendor-specific laptop fdi files for macbooks and dells06:41
slangaseks/were/where/06:41
slangasekpitti: oh, perhaps they're all in the hal-info package06:55
slangasekTheMuso: so I might've tred to switch it over to autotools, except a 1400-line SConstruct file makes me weep07:14
slangasekTheMuso: "tried"07:14
StevenKslangasek: The fdi files could be in hal-info?07:15
slangasekStevenK: yes, I noticed. :)07:15
StevenKHeh07:16
rom1vhi09:51
rom1vin intrepid alpha 6, the version of pulseaudio is :  0.9.10-2ubuntu309:51
rom1vdo you plan to upgrade to 0.9.11 or 0.9.12?09:52
rom1vfor intrepid final?09:52
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rom1vhttp://www.pulseaudio.org/ticket/364 (a bug corrected on .11 or .12)09:52
torkelrom1v: If you want to test pulseaudio 0.9.12 see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2008-September/026470.html11:19
TheMusorom1v: We will be sticking with 0.9.10. Too many users with issues with either 0.9.11 or 0.9.12, including myself.12:28
TreenaksTheMuso: you'll get a lot of grief from the allcaps('but the latest version is always the bestest') crowds12:29
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peciskwhy NetworkManager is left alone without network-admin? So far it's config guis and functionality is huge regression13:26
ogranjpatel, do you thnk bug 269150 can be fixed before intrepid ? (i'd nominate it for the release then)13:35
ubottuLaunchpad bug 269150 in netbook-launcher "No text under icons with Intrepid alpha 5" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26915013:35
ogra(so it shows up on the relese managers radar)13:36
njpatelogra: yeah, i'll try and get it done tomorrow/tuesday. Didn't get a chance last week13:36
ograno hurry, if we make it critical for release applying fixes wont be blocked at least13:37
ograpecisk, what do you not like about the new UI for setting up static IPs etc ... i think its far more advanced13:38
ogra(and offers a lot more options network-admin didnt even tak into account)13:39
ogra*take13:39
peciskogra: but that is not what I need13:39
ogra??13:39
peciskI don't need advance side of it13:39
peciskit is overblown13:39
peciskhaotic13:39
peciskit never appealed me13:39
peciskI don't know guys, but you need a beter consulation with real users of Ubuntu before making decisions like that13:40
peciskbecause Ubuntu isn't used by geeks anymore13:40
ograthe two dont work properly together13:40
ograand having the manual configuration in the same UI is easier to understand imho13:40
peciskogra: it isn't easier13:41
peciskyou tried to do it?13:41
ograi agree thats its harder to find since oyu need to right click to reach it13:41
pecisknot only13:41
peciskbetter was to fix network-admin and leave NM for what it is good at - switching connections and easy wifi connecting13:41
ograi disagree13:41
ogra(as well as the UI design team does afaik)13:42
peciskwell, I haven't heard any public disscusion or read decisions about this13:42
ograthough i see your point, it seems to offer an 802.11 security tab for wider here13:42
ogra*wired13:42
ograthat shouldnt be shown for cards not being able to use it13:42
ograbut i really dont see much difference in the IPv4 settings if i compare to network-dmin13:43
ogra*admin13:43
ograwell, what do you need a public discussion for ? upstream drops network-admin in favor of the new stuff13:44
ograso whats the point in keeping obsolete stuff around ?13:44
peciskok, not a public discussion13:45
peciskcan I read what was basis of such decision?13:45
ograikely on some gnome upstream ML13:45
ogra*likely13:45
peciskpropblem is that NetworkManager is written "PulseAudio" all over again13:45
ograthe upstream plan is to have all network handling centralized afaik13:46
ogra???13:46
peciskit is broking things which shouldn't be touched with 10 foot pole if you have really good reason to do so13:46
peciskwell, then NM isn't that tool to centralize to13:46
pecisksorry about being harsh, but I was really upset about this13:47
peciskI deploy Ubuntu to users in every day basis and this affects me13:47
ograi didnt make that decision, but i see it working with DSL, wider, wireless and 3G connections13:47
ogras/wider/wired13:48
ograwhat is missing in your opinion ?13:48
peciskNM configuration dialogs are not up to their jobs13:48
ogra(i missed VPN above, but i dont have any VPN to test that setup)13:49
peciskfor now13:49
peciskit can be fixed, to be sure13:49
ograthey are not different to network-admin13:49
peciskthey are very different13:49
peciskthere are no profile switching, for example13:49
ograi dont see any difference between the n-a and n-m dialogs for ipv4 wired settigs at all actually13:49
pecisknetwork-admin gui was very simplified and actually was done right. NM looks like all features have exposure on GUI, which is huge no no13:50
peciskyou don't, user will see13:50
Treenakspecisk: It's not a no-no if it's the only way to configure13:50
ograi have them both open side by side here13:50
Treenakspecisk: some things HAVE to be configured13:50
ograthere is only a "routes" button added to the n-m dialog13:50
ograapart from that they are 100% identical13:51
ograand i see it as an improvement that you now finally have a gui way to configure DSL13:52
peciskTreenaks: at least have some sections for Advanced stuff then13:52
ograwhich n-a didnt offer at all13:52
ograsame goes for 3G modems connections13:53
peciskif you have to configure DSL, then it is really something wrong with system13:53
peciskok13:53
peciskanyway13:53
peciskogra: I am all about additional functionality, but let's not destroy old one13:54
Treenakspecisk: Uhr.. PPPoE DSL won't configure itself13:54
peciskok, I stand corrected then13:54
ograyeah, i was about to ask pecisk how he would use DSL without configuration :)13:54
ogramost of the 5 protocols used over the world wont work without configuration13:55
peciskanyway, I am really happy about NM functionality, and propably Ibex is right time to switch on it, but I would like to see huge improvements in configuration, because I really miss old stuff13:55
peciskthat's all13:55
ografile bugs ;)13:55
ograits not to late for fixes13:55
ograi agree that the menu option should be in the left and not the right click menu for example13:56
ograso its easier to reach13:56
peciskit should be in System => Administration too13:57
pecisk:)13:57
peciskmaybe it is now, I haven't touched Ibex for two weeks13:57
ograwell, it requires NM to run13:57
peciskuhh ohh13:57
* RainCT asks from his ignorancy: does NM work if I don't use gnome-panel? :P13:58
ograso i'm not sure it would work in System => Administration if you dont at least have the dbus backend in place13:58
ograRainCT, sure13:58
pecisknm is independent13:58
ograthe applet needs any kind of systray though13:58
pecisknm-applet is what you see in gnome-panel13:58
ograwhich also pypanel, xfce panel and kde offer13:59
peciskogra: well, that's not right, but I hope they will change it13:59
peciskogra: I about NM must run when you use configure dialog13:59
ograwell, to change the config the toool writing the config must run14:00
RainCTalright, thanks :)14:00
ldngJust in case someone care as it broke the bulletproof X : Bug #272755: X broken by missing xf86GetPciDomain function in DRI module14:11
ubottuLaunchpad bug 272755 in xorg "X broken by missing xf86GetPciDomain function in DRI module" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/27275514:11
jcristauldng: attaching plain text files is way better than random tarballs...14:15
ldngjcristau: ok, sorry14:21
ldngif I can help let me know14:22
ldngyet the first attachment is a tar created by the failsafe session, I've just compress it; For my information, does launchpad untar automatically them ?14:24
jcristauldng: looks like you have leftover crap from fglrx14:28
ldngjcristau: hum, I didn't see that, I'll purge it to see if it solves something14:35
ldngjcristau: indeed it solved it. I didn't think just having it around but not in use could affect the whole X. Should I change the status to invalid in your opinion ?14:45
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superm1tseliot, thanks for the patch, i've uploaded it18:54
tseliotsuperm1: thanks for the upload ;)19:37
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seanhHey, does anyone know a good little web server I can install on my laptop for web development (python, cgi)? I don't really want to install something like apache. I'm thinking more along the lines of the convenient development servers that frameworks like django come with, where you just run the server in a terminal not even as root, and just kill the process when you're done21:48
Nafalloseanh: hi. this channel is not for support. you might want to try your luck in #ubuntu :-)21:49
seanhYeah I know, sorry. I thought this question probably too difficult for #ubuntu, but developers may be able to answer it. Perhaps I wanted the devel-discuss channel21:50
onihi22:04
onihi22:08
oniwhere can i send a displayhotplug script to22:09
Keybuka what?22:13
onia little script that polls the connection of displays and run commands when connect and disconnect22:14
onifor example to activate dualhead when two displays are connected22:16
Keybukwhy poll?22:16
Keybukyou get events for that kind of thing, and the X server handles it22:17
onibut why is there no programm that uses this events22:18
KeybukX does22:18
Keybukif you plug in a display, and run xrandr, you'll see that it has noticed the new display22:19
jcristauit only notices because you ran xrandr22:19
onii think so too22:19
jcristaubut still, don't poll22:20
Keybukjcristau: I do not believe that is true22:20
onijcristau: better ideas?22:21
Keybukjcristau: the xrandr tool simply queries the currently known outputs22:22
Keybukit's true that you have to run xrandr --auto to *configure* outputs22:22
Keybuk(or xrandr --output VGA --mode ...)22:22
jcristauKeybuk: no, plain xrandr does all the load detection and probing22:23
Keybukbut I'm pretty sure (and could be wrong :p) that X does the detection22:23
Keybukjcristau: do you have a reference for that?  because I'm reading the source ...22:23
sebnerKeybuk: hey :) short question. why did you tell me that it's better to use a 32bit ubuntu also with 4gb ram?22:23
Keybuksebner: ?22:24
sebnerKeybuk: yeah, you told me that while you helped me with a usb/boot problem, remember?22:24
Keybuknope22:24
sebnerKeybuk: nope = you can't remember or you didn't tell me that ^^22:25
Keybuksebner: can't remember saying that22:25
KeybukI generally recommend 32-bit22:25
Keybukyou may not have mentioned the 4GB of RAM bit22:25
sebnerKeybuk: ah I asked you if it's a problem to use 32bit with 4gb since only 3 are really used22:26
Keybukwell, it's not a problem :)22:26
sebnerKeybuk: but in case of 4gb you recommend 64bit version, right?22:26
jcristauKeybuk: ProcRRGetScreenResources calls RRGetInfo, which calls into the driver's probe functions22:27
Keybuksebner: if you want to use the 4gb22:27
Keybukjcristau: but xrandr doesn't call that?22:27
jcristauKeybuk: and the first thing xrandr does is XRRGetScreenResources22:27
Keybukoh, yes it does22:27
Keybukfair enough ;)22:28
* Keybuk stands corrected22:28
sebnerKeybuk: now is the question if I care about this 1 missing GB or I care because I *have* 4 gb22:28
Keybuksebner: ?22:28
jcristauoni: have the user press some key22:29
sebnerKeybuk: if I have 4gb this doesn't mean that I have to use the 64bit version because of this22:29
Keybuksebner: I don't understand what you mean, sorry22:29
Keybuksebner: you don't have to, no22:29
onino it is hotpulg22:29
Keybuksebner: you don't _have_ to do anything ;)22:30
Keybukthe 32-bit version will still boot, it just won't use all your ram22:30
sebnerKeybuk: I know but I still can't decide if I should use 32bit or 64bit. Do I need only the 3gb ram (sure) or should I use the 64bit version just because I *have* 4gb :)22:31
Keybuk64-bit may be faster for some operations, and may be slower for others22:31
Keybukprograms use more memory in 64-bit22:31
Keybukproprietary software (ie. flash) generally fails to work22:32
sebnerKeybuk: ah I forgot. Ok then the 32 bit versino :)22:32
sebner*version22:32
KeybukI'm unsure what the general wisdom is about 64-bit on Intel Core 222:32
* Laney runs it22:33
sebnerKeybuk: and sorry, I didn't want to confuse you but if I use the 32 bit version I somehow *Waste* 1 gb because it doesn't appear that was the thing that made me thinking22:33
KeybukOn AMD64, it certainly seems to make a big improvement on speed22:33
Keybuksebner: well, you'll have 1GB less addressable memory22:33
Keybukbut all your programs will be roughly half the size ;)22:33
sebnerI know ^^ .. but it's still a waste =) I'll build the pc by myself. maybe I should only buy 3gb but 4 sounds better :P22:34
* Keybuk runs 32-bit on his core 2, but 64-bit on his amd6422:34
KeybukI think the former was simply which disk I had to hand at the time :p22:34
sebnerKeybuk: It will be a quadcore :D22:35
Keybukhmm, at that point I think there are other 64-bit features you might want22:35
sebnerKeybuk: well, the pc is for my parents and they would also be happy with a single core ^^^22:36
Keybukyou give your parents a quad core machine with 4GB of RAM?!22:36
KeybukI give mine the address of Dell's website and tell them to buy something cheap22:36
sebnerKeybuk: sure. Very cheap that stuff at the moment and ok for the next 3-4 years22:36
sebnerKeybuk: the pc won't cost more than 400-500€ ;)22:37
KeybukKeybuk's 42nd rule of technology: the average lifetime of hardware is roughly half that it was expected to last22:37
sebnerKeybuk: I also want my parents to be "cool" :P22:38
Keybukyou'll end up doing tech support for them22:39
sebnerKeybuk: I'm doing tech support since years (windows xp) ;) and I *really* think with ubuntu it'll become less :D22:39
Keybukubuntu as well? :)  brave man!22:41
sebnerKeybuk: of course. Otherwise I wouldn't ask :P22:41
sebnerKeybuk: and btw, what does make a quadcore and 4gb ram sense with windows xp? (vista ... no ... really)22:42
Keybuksure22:43
sebnerKeybuk: I still don't know if I should buy now 4gb or only 3 ^^22:43
ion_My dad’s computer uses my puppetmaster just like all my computers, so i can do some configuration without even having to visit them. :-) Not that i don’t mind visiting them, but i rather visit *them* instead of *their computer*. :-)22:44
sebnerion_: I still live with them ^^22:45
Keybukmy parents computers run windows, and they know not to ask me for help :p22:45
sebnerhrhr22:46
sebnerKeybuk: btw, you big to make the swap partition with 4gb ram? 4gb? ^^22:46
Keybukerr?22:46
sebnerthough I think no swap necessary with 4gb ram ^^22:46
Keybukswap is always useful22:46
Keybukotherwise how will they hibernate, for one?22:47
sebnerthey never do ...22:47
sebnernor I'm doing that xD22:47
Keybukswap means unused apps can be moved to swap to make room for more page cache22:47
sebnerKeybuk: sure but I read that swap should be as big as the ram22:47
Keybukindeed22:48
KeybukI think the rule used to be "twice as big"22:48
Keybukthen it was "as big, or 2GB, which ever is larger"22:48
sebnerKeybuk: so the swap should be 2gb?22:49
Keybukno, size of ram22:49
Keybukjust use the installer22:49
Keybukit does all this for you :p22:49
onibetter dubble size of ram22:50
sebnerNo I'm seperating /home  ;)22:50
sebneroni: so 8gb ? ^^22:50
Keybukoh, gods, WHY!?22:50
oniyes22:50
Keybukevery other week I get very tempted to simply make split filesystems not work22:50
sebnerKeybuk: /me has no problem with it and it's great if I reinstall ubuntu :)22:51
onia java-man:"disks are cheap"22:51
sebneroni: well the pc will have 500gb harddrive22:51
oniso why not 8gb swap22:51
sebneroni: the question is if 8gb are really usefull or are 4gb enough22:52
ion_Puppet is quite nice for managing computers. For instance, i have this module for fixing Ubuntu’s fonts (main file: http://gitweb.heh.fi/?p=ion/puppet/sharp-fonts.git;a=blob;f=manifests/init.pp, templates referenced by it: http://gitweb.heh.fi/?p=ion/puppet/sharp-fonts.git;a=tree;f=templates). If i wanted my dad’s box to use that config, i’d just add the class to his node. Or the default node, which is what i’ve done.22:52
KeybukI sat next to someone who was a Puppet developer at the LPC Speakers Dinner22:52
ion_The computers pull the settings from puppetmaster, so i don’t have to allow connectivity from me to my dad’s laptop.22:52
oniif they will ever suspend 8gb are usefull22:53
sebneroni: why? They only use firefox or that stuff22:53
sebnerKeybuk: I decided to buy 4gb so I have 1gb in stock if one breaks down :D22:53
ion_sebner: The Ubuntu installer handles /home even if it’s on the root partition.22:53
Keybuka quad core, 4GB RAM, 64-bit box ...22:53
Keybuk... to run FIREFOX?!22:53
Keybukit's crap, but not *that* crap! :p22:53
sebnerKeybuk: office :D22:53
azeemFirefox office FTW22:54
Keybukactually, you do want it 32-bit if it's for parents22:54
Keybukand with the windows dlls and stuff22:54
sebnerKeybuk: yes I know22:54
Keybukotherwise they won't be able to do flash, or watch movies they download22:54
sebnerKeybuk: they don't download movies O_o22:54
onisebner: i think your qustion ist allready answered22:54
Keybukyes, I used to think my parents didn't look at porn either -- then I opened the bookmarks22:54
* sebner has no cyperpirates at home xD22:54
sebnerKeybuk: omg xD22:54
sebneroni: yes?22:54
onisebner: yes, you said "firefox"22:55
sebnerKeybuk: as I said. things are cheap now. The last pc (without screen) were 800€. and now I'll make one with half the price and a lot more power :D22:55
sebneroni: so 8gb are usefull?22:56
sebner-l22:56
onii would do so22:56
sebneroni: and 4gb aren22:57
sebneroni: aren't enough because .... ?22:57
oniit is enough but not recommended22:58
sebneroni: also for parents?22:58
Keybuk*baffled*22:58
ion_:-)22:58
KeybukI only have 2GB in any of my machines22:58
sebnerbecause I actually have 500mb used from 2gb ram and 2mb swap from 2gb :)22:59
sebnerKeybuk: ram or swap?22:59
Keybuksebner: ram22:59
sebnerKeybuk: cheap! :D22:59
onisebner: don't know my parents don't have swap in their head22:59
sebnerKeybuk: I could also buy a singlecore and use 1gb ram. so the pc is new but crap ^^23:00
Keybukright, time for flight23:00
Keybukl8r23:00
sebnerand for me it's time for bed :D23:00
sebnergn8 folks23:00
sebneroni: and thx for the tipps23:00
onin823:00
oninp23:00
TheMusoTreenaks: I'll admit I was once like that, but experience has taught me otherwise.23:25

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