[00:27] <cjwatson> NCommander: it's the base-passwd maintainer you need to ask (aka me :-)), not base-files
[00:27] <NCommander> ack
[00:27]  * NCommander hides from cjwatson's all mightly passwd-foo
[00:27] <cjwatson> I get about one mail every couple of months asking for new static assignments, I think
[00:28] <cjwatson> I probably accept about half of them, and advise the rest that they can use dynamic ids instead
[00:28] <NCommander> cjwatson, the question was for NM, not because I was packaging anything ;-)
[00:28] <cjwatson> so a homework question, you mean? ;-)
[05:42] <TheMuso> slangasek: ardour already had an upload done for that, but ardour FTBF for crazy scons reasons.
[05:42] <TheMuso> FTBFs
[06:33] <slangasek> TheMuso: hrm; I didn't notice that it was out of date on all archs :/
[06:35] <slangasek> TheMuso: so, how do we fix it to not use scons? :-)
[06:35] <TheMuso> slangasek: Yeah, persia previsouly did an upload for that same thing, but it FTBFs, which we are still trying to work out.
[06:35] <TheMuso> slangasek: Rewrite the build system for the package? :)
[06:36]  * TheMuso notes that it used to use autoconf, but that was a few years ago.
[06:39] <TheMuso> slangasek: I was pondering simply not using scons for the install, but scons still builds important package files in that state, such as translation files etc, which IMO really should be done in the build stage. So I am not sure where to go from here atht emoment.
[06:40] <slangasek> I still like "replace the build system" better than the alternatives :-P
[06:41] <TheMuso> slangasek: So do I, but I don't think thats realistic before beta.
[06:41] <slangasek> pitti: when you say hal has "tons of fdi files"... were are they?  I only see vendor-specific laptop fdi files for macbooks and dells
[06:41] <slangasek> s/were/where/
[06:55] <slangasek> pitti: oh, perhaps they're all in the hal-info package
[07:14] <slangasek> TheMuso: so I might've tred to switch it over to autotools, except a 1400-line SConstruct file makes me weep
[07:14] <slangasek> TheMuso: "tried"
[07:15] <StevenK> slangasek: The fdi files could be in hal-info?
[07:15] <slangasek> StevenK: yes, I noticed. :)
[07:16] <StevenK> Heh
[09:51] <rom1v> hi
[09:51] <rom1v> in intrepid alpha 6, the version of pulseaudio is :  0.9.10-2ubuntu3
[09:52] <rom1v> do you plan to upgrade to 0.9.11 or 0.9.12?
[09:52] <rom1v> for intrepid final?
[09:52] <rom1v> http://www.pulseaudio.org/ticket/364 (a bug corrected on .11 or .12)
[11:19] <torkel> rom1v: If you want to test pulseaudio 0.9.12 see https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2008-September/026470.html
[12:28] <TheMuso> rom1v: We will be sticking with 0.9.10. Too many users with issues with either 0.9.11 or 0.9.12, including myself.
[12:29] <Treenaks> TheMuso: you'll get a lot of grief from the allcaps('but the latest version is always the bestest') crowds
[13:26] <pecisk> why NetworkManager is left alone without network-admin? So far it's config guis and functionality is huge regression
[13:35] <ogra> njpatel, do you thnk bug 269150 can be fixed before intrepid ? (i'd nominate it for the release then)
[13:36] <ogra> (so it shows up on the relese managers radar)
[13:36] <njpatel> ogra: yeah, i'll try and get it done tomorrow/tuesday. Didn't get a chance last week
[13:37] <ogra> no hurry, if we make it critical for release applying fixes wont be blocked at least
[13:38] <ogra> pecisk, what do you not like about the new UI for setting up static IPs etc ... i think its far more advanced
[13:39] <ogra> (and offers a lot more options network-admin didnt even tak into account)
[13:39] <ogra> *take
[13:39] <pecisk> ogra: but that is not what I need
[13:39] <ogra> ??
[13:39] <pecisk> I don't need advance side of it
[13:39] <pecisk> it is overblown
[13:39] <pecisk> haotic
[13:39] <pecisk> it never appealed me
[13:40] <pecisk> I don't know guys, but you need a beter consulation with real users of Ubuntu before making decisions like that
[13:40] <pecisk> because Ubuntu isn't used by geeks anymore
[13:40] <ogra> the two dont work properly together
[13:40] <ogra> and having the manual configuration in the same UI is easier to understand imho
[13:41] <pecisk> ogra: it isn't easier
[13:41] <pecisk> you tried to do it?
[13:41] <ogra> i agree thats its harder to find since oyu need to right click to reach it
[13:41] <pecisk> not only
[13:41] <pecisk> better was to fix network-admin and leave NM for what it is good at - switching connections and easy wifi connecting
[13:41] <ogra> i disagree
[13:42] <ogra> (as well as the UI design team does afaik)
[13:42] <pecisk> well, I haven't heard any public disscusion or read decisions about this
[13:42] <ogra> though i see your point, it seems to offer an 802.11 security tab for wider here
[13:42] <ogra> *wired
[13:42] <ogra> that shouldnt be shown for cards not being able to use it
[13:43] <ogra> but i really dont see much difference in the IPv4 settings if i compare to network-dmin
[13:43] <ogra> *admin
[13:44] <ogra> well, what do you need a public discussion for ? upstream drops network-admin in favor of the new stuff
[13:44] <ogra> so whats the point in keeping obsolete stuff around ?
[13:45] <pecisk> ok, not a public discussion
[13:45] <pecisk> can I read what was basis of such decision?
[13:45] <ogra> ikely on some gnome upstream ML
[13:45] <ogra> *likely
[13:45] <pecisk> propblem is that NetworkManager is written "PulseAudio" all over again
[13:46] <ogra> the upstream plan is to have all network handling centralized afaik
[13:46] <ogra> ???
[13:46] <pecisk> it is broking things which shouldn't be touched with 10 foot pole if you have really good reason to do so
[13:46] <pecisk> well, then NM isn't that tool to centralize to
[13:47] <pecisk> sorry about being harsh, but I was really upset about this
[13:47] <pecisk> I deploy Ubuntu to users in every day basis and this affects me
[13:47] <ogra> i didnt make that decision, but i see it working with DSL, wider, wireless and 3G connections
[13:48] <ogra> s/wider/wired
[13:48] <ogra> what is missing in your opinion ?
[13:48] <pecisk> NM configuration dialogs are not up to their jobs
[13:49] <ogra> (i missed VPN above, but i dont have any VPN to test that setup)
[13:49] <pecisk> for now
[13:49] <pecisk> it can be fixed, to be sure
[13:49] <ogra> they are not different to network-admin
[13:49] <pecisk> they are very different
[13:49] <pecisk> there are no profile switching, for example
[13:49] <ogra> i dont see any difference between the n-a and n-m dialogs for ipv4 wired settigs at all actually
[13:50] <pecisk> network-admin gui was very simplified and actually was done right. NM looks like all features have exposure on GUI, which is huge no no
[13:50] <pecisk> you don't, user will see
[13:50] <Treenaks> pecisk: It's not a no-no if it's the only way to configure
[13:50] <ogra> i have them both open side by side here
[13:50] <Treenaks> pecisk: some things HAVE to be configured
[13:50] <ogra> there is only a "routes" button added to the n-m dialog
[13:51] <ogra> apart from that they are 100% identical
[13:52] <ogra> and i see it as an improvement that you now finally have a gui way to configure DSL
[13:52] <pecisk> Treenaks: at least have some sections for Advanced stuff then
[13:52] <ogra> which n-a didnt offer at all
[13:53] <ogra> same goes for 3G modems connections
[13:53] <pecisk> if you have to configure DSL, then it is really something wrong with system
[13:53] <pecisk> ok
[13:53] <pecisk> anyway
[13:54] <pecisk> ogra: I am all about additional functionality, but let's not destroy old one
[13:54] <Treenaks> pecisk: Uhr.. PPPoE DSL won't configure itself
[13:54] <pecisk> ok, I stand corrected then
[13:54] <ogra> yeah, i was about to ask pecisk how he would use DSL without configuration :)
[13:55] <ogra> most of the 5 protocols used over the world wont work without configuration
[13:55] <pecisk> anyway, I am really happy about NM functionality, and propably Ibex is right time to switch on it, but I would like to see huge improvements in configuration, because I really miss old stuff
[13:55] <pecisk> that's all
[13:55] <ogra> file bugs ;)
[13:55] <ogra> its not to late for fixes
[13:56] <ogra> i agree that the menu option should be in the left and not the right click menu for example
[13:56] <ogra> so its easier to reach
[13:57] <pecisk> it should be in System => Administration too
[13:57] <pecisk> :)
[13:57] <pecisk> maybe it is now, I haven't touched Ibex for two weeks
[13:57] <ogra> well, it requires NM to run
[13:57] <pecisk> uhh ohh
[13:58]  * RainCT asks from his ignorancy: does NM work if I don't use gnome-panel? :P
[13:58] <ogra> so i'm not sure it would work in System => Administration if you dont at least have the dbus backend in place
[13:58] <ogra> RainCT, sure
[13:58] <pecisk> nm is independent
[13:58] <ogra> the applet needs any kind of systray though
[13:58] <pecisk> nm-applet is what you see in gnome-panel
[13:59] <ogra> which also pypanel, xfce panel and kde offer
[13:59] <pecisk> ogra: well, that's not right, but I hope they will change it
[13:59] <pecisk> ogra: I about NM must run when you use configure dialog
[14:00] <ogra> well, to change the config the toool writing the config must run
[14:00] <RainCT> alright, thanks :)
[14:11] <ldng> Just in case someone care as it broke the bulletproof X : Bug #272755: X broken by missing xf86GetPciDomain function in DRI module
[14:15] <jcristau> ldng: attaching plain text files is way better than random tarballs...
[14:21] <ldng> jcristau: ok, sorry
[14:22] <ldng> if I can help let me know
[14:24] <ldng> yet the first attachment is a tar created by the failsafe session, I've just compress it; For my information, does launchpad untar automatically them ?
[14:28] <jcristau> ldng: looks like you have leftover crap from fglrx
[14:35] <ldng> jcristau: hum, I didn't see that, I'll purge it to see if it solves something
[14:45] <ldng> jcristau: indeed it solved it. I didn't think just having it around but not in use could affect the whole X. Should I change the status to invalid in your opinion ?
[18:54] <superm1> tseliot, thanks for the patch, i've uploaded it
[19:37] <tseliot> superm1: thanks for the upload ;)
[21:48] <seanh> Hey, does anyone know a good little web server I can install on my laptop for web development (python, cgi)? I don't really want to install something like apache. I'm thinking more along the lines of the convenient development servers that frameworks like django come with, where you just run the server in a terminal not even as root, and just kill the process when you're done
[21:49] <Nafallo> seanh: hi. this channel is not for support. you might want to try your luck in #ubuntu :-)
[21:50] <seanh> Yeah I know, sorry. I thought this question probably too difficult for #ubuntu, but developers may be able to answer it. Perhaps I wanted the devel-discuss channel
[22:04] <oni> hi
[22:08] <oni> hi
[22:09] <oni> where can i send a displayhotplug script to
[22:13] <Keybuk> a what?
[22:14] <oni> a little script that polls the connection of displays and run commands when connect and disconnect
[22:16] <oni> for example to activate dualhead when two displays are connected
[22:16] <Keybuk> why poll?
[22:17] <Keybuk> you get events for that kind of thing, and the X server handles it
[22:18] <oni> but why is there no programm that uses this events
[22:18] <Keybuk> X does
[22:19] <Keybuk> if you plug in a display, and run xrandr, you'll see that it has noticed the new display
[22:19] <jcristau> it only notices because you ran xrandr
[22:19] <oni> i think so too
[22:20] <jcristau> but still, don't poll
[22:20] <Keybuk> jcristau: I do not believe that is true
[22:21] <oni> jcristau: better ideas?
[22:22] <Keybuk> jcristau: the xrandr tool simply queries the currently known outputs
[22:22] <Keybuk> it's true that you have to run xrandr --auto to *configure* outputs
[22:22] <Keybuk> (or xrandr --output VGA --mode ...)
[22:23] <jcristau> Keybuk: no, plain xrandr does all the load detection and probing
[22:23] <Keybuk> but I'm pretty sure (and could be wrong :p) that X does the detection
[22:23] <Keybuk> jcristau: do you have a reference for that?  because I'm reading the source ...
[22:23] <sebner> Keybuk: hey :) short question. why did you tell me that it's better to use a 32bit ubuntu also with 4gb ram?
[22:24] <Keybuk> sebner: ?
[22:24] <sebner> Keybuk: yeah, you told me that while you helped me with a usb/boot problem, remember?
[22:24] <Keybuk> nope
[22:25] <sebner> Keybuk: nope = you can't remember or you didn't tell me that ^^
[22:25] <Keybuk> sebner: can't remember saying that
[22:25] <Keybuk> I generally recommend 32-bit
[22:25] <Keybuk> you may not have mentioned the 4GB of RAM bit
[22:26] <sebner> Keybuk: ah I asked you if it's a problem to use 32bit with 4gb since only 3 are really used
[22:26] <Keybuk> well, it's not a problem :)
[22:26] <sebner> Keybuk: but in case of 4gb you recommend 64bit version, right?
[22:27] <jcristau> Keybuk: ProcRRGetScreenResources calls RRGetInfo, which calls into the driver's probe functions
[22:27] <Keybuk> sebner: if you want to use the 4gb
[22:27] <Keybuk> jcristau: but xrandr doesn't call that?
[22:27] <jcristau> Keybuk: and the first thing xrandr does is XRRGetScreenResources
[22:27] <Keybuk> oh, yes it does
[22:28] <Keybuk> fair enough ;)
[22:28]  * Keybuk stands corrected
[22:28] <sebner> Keybuk: now is the question if I care about this 1 missing GB or I care because I *have* 4 gb
[22:28] <Keybuk> sebner: ?
[22:29] <jcristau> oni: have the user press some key
[22:29] <sebner> Keybuk: if I have 4gb this doesn't mean that I have to use the 64bit version because of this
[22:29] <Keybuk> sebner: I don't understand what you mean, sorry
[22:29] <Keybuk> sebner: you don't have to, no
[22:29] <oni> no it is hotpulg
[22:30] <Keybuk> sebner: you don't _have_ to do anything ;)
[22:30] <Keybuk> the 32-bit version will still boot, it just won't use all your ram
[22:31] <sebner> Keybuk: I know but I still can't decide if I should use 32bit or 64bit. Do I need only the 3gb ram (sure) or should I use the 64bit version just because I *have* 4gb :)
[22:31] <Keybuk> 64-bit may be faster for some operations, and may be slower for others
[22:31] <Keybuk> programs use more memory in 64-bit
[22:32] <Keybuk> proprietary software (ie. flash) generally fails to work
[22:32] <sebner> Keybuk: ah I forgot. Ok then the 32 bit versino :)
[22:32] <sebner> *version
[22:32] <Keybuk> I'm unsure what the general wisdom is about 64-bit on Intel Core 2
[22:33]  * Laney runs it
[22:33] <sebner> Keybuk: and sorry, I didn't want to confuse you but if I use the 32 bit version I somehow *Waste* 1 gb because it doesn't appear that was the thing that made me thinking
[22:33] <Keybuk> On AMD64, it certainly seems to make a big improvement on speed
[22:33] <Keybuk> sebner: well, you'll have 1GB less addressable memory
[22:33] <Keybuk> but all your programs will be roughly half the size ;)
[22:34] <sebner> I know ^^ .. but it's still a waste =) I'll build the pc by myself. maybe I should only buy 3gb but 4 sounds better :P
[22:34]  * Keybuk runs 32-bit on his core 2, but 64-bit on his amd64
[22:34] <Keybuk> I think the former was simply which disk I had to hand at the time :p
[22:35] <sebner> Keybuk: It will be a quadcore :D
[22:35] <Keybuk> hmm, at that point I think there are other 64-bit features you might want
[22:36] <sebner> Keybuk: well, the pc is for my parents and they would also be happy with a single core ^^^
[22:36] <Keybuk> you give your parents a quad core machine with 4GB of RAM?!
[22:36] <Keybuk> I give mine the address of Dell's website and tell them to buy something cheap
[22:36] <sebner> Keybuk: sure. Very cheap that stuff at the moment and ok for the next 3-4 years
[22:37] <sebner> Keybuk: the pc won't cost more than 400-500€ ;)
[22:37] <Keybuk> Keybuk's 42nd rule of technology: the average lifetime of hardware is roughly half that it was expected to last
[22:38] <sebner> Keybuk: I also want my parents to be "cool" :P
[22:39] <Keybuk> you'll end up doing tech support for them
[22:39] <sebner> Keybuk: I'm doing tech support since years (windows xp) ;) and I *really* think with ubuntu it'll become less :D
[22:41] <Keybuk> ubuntu as well? :)  brave man!
[22:41] <sebner> Keybuk: of course. Otherwise I wouldn't ask :P
[22:42] <sebner> Keybuk: and btw, what does make a quadcore and 4gb ram sense with windows xp? (vista ... no ... really)
[22:43] <Keybuk> sure
[22:43] <sebner> Keybuk: I still don't know if I should buy now 4gb or only 3 ^^
[22:44] <ion_> My dad’s computer uses my puppetmaster just like all my computers, so i can do some configuration without even having to visit them. :-) Not that i don’t mind visiting them, but i rather visit *them* instead of *their computer*. :-)
[22:45] <sebner> ion_: I still live with them ^^
[22:45] <Keybuk> my parents computers run windows, and they know not to ask me for help :p
[22:46] <sebner> hrhr
[22:46] <sebner> Keybuk: btw, you big to make the swap partition with 4gb ram? 4gb? ^^
[22:46] <Keybuk> err?
[22:46] <sebner> though I think no swap necessary with 4gb ram ^^
[22:46] <Keybuk> swap is always useful
[22:47] <Keybuk> otherwise how will they hibernate, for one?
[22:47] <sebner> they never do ...
[22:47] <sebner> nor I'm doing that xD
[22:47] <Keybuk> swap means unused apps can be moved to swap to make room for more page cache
[22:47] <sebner> Keybuk: sure but I read that swap should be as big as the ram
[22:48] <Keybuk> indeed
[22:48] <Keybuk> I think the rule used to be "twice as big"
[22:48] <Keybuk> then it was "as big, or 2GB, which ever is larger"
[22:49] <sebner> Keybuk: so the swap should be 2gb?
[22:49] <Keybuk> no, size of ram
[22:49] <Keybuk> just use the installer
[22:49] <Keybuk> it does all this for you :p
[22:50] <oni> better dubble size of ram
[22:50] <sebner> No I'm seperating /home  ;)
[22:50] <sebner> oni: so 8gb ? ^^
[22:50] <Keybuk> oh, gods, WHY!?
[22:50] <oni> yes
[22:50] <Keybuk> every other week I get very tempted to simply make split filesystems not work
[22:51] <sebner> Keybuk: /me has no problem with it and it's great if I reinstall ubuntu :)
[22:51] <oni> a java-man:"disks are cheap"
[22:51] <sebner> oni: well the pc will have 500gb harddrive
[22:51] <oni> so why not 8gb swap
[22:52] <sebner> oni: the question is if 8gb are really usefull or are 4gb enough
[22:52] <ion_> Puppet is quite nice for managing computers. For instance, i have this module for fixing Ubuntu’s fonts (main file: http://gitweb.heh.fi/?p=ion/puppet/sharp-fonts.git;a=blob;f=manifests/init.pp, templates referenced by it: http://gitweb.heh.fi/?p=ion/puppet/sharp-fonts.git;a=tree;f=templates). If i wanted my dad’s box to use that config, i’d just add the class to his node. Or the default node, which is what i’ve done.
[22:52] <Keybuk> I sat next to someone who was a Puppet developer at the LPC Speakers Dinner
[22:52] <ion_> The computers pull the settings from puppetmaster, so i don’t have to allow connectivity from me to my dad’s laptop.
[22:53] <oni> if they will ever suspend 8gb are usefull
[22:53] <sebner> oni: why? They only use firefox or that stuff
[22:53] <sebner> Keybuk: I decided to buy 4gb so I have 1gb in stock if one breaks down :D
[22:53] <ion_> sebner: The Ubuntu installer handles /home even if it’s on the root partition.
[22:53] <Keybuk> a quad core, 4GB RAM, 64-bit box ...
[22:53] <Keybuk> ... to run FIREFOX?!
[22:53] <Keybuk> it's crap, but not *that* crap! :p
[22:53] <sebner> Keybuk: office :D
[22:54] <azeem> Firefox office FTW
[22:54] <Keybuk> actually, you do want it 32-bit if it's for parents
[22:54] <Keybuk> and with the windows dlls and stuff
[22:54] <sebner> Keybuk: yes I know
[22:54] <Keybuk> otherwise they won't be able to do flash, or watch movies they download
[22:54] <sebner> Keybuk: they don't download movies O_o
[22:54] <oni> sebner: i think your qustion ist allready answered
[22:54] <Keybuk> yes, I used to think my parents didn't look at porn either -- then I opened the bookmarks
[22:54]  * sebner has no cyperpirates at home xD
[22:54] <sebner> Keybuk: omg xD
[22:54] <sebner> oni: yes?
[22:55] <oni> sebner: yes, you said "firefox"
[22:55] <sebner> Keybuk: as I said. things are cheap now. The last pc (without screen) were 800€. and now I'll make one with half the price and a lot more power :D
[22:56] <sebner> oni: so 8gb are usefull?
[22:56] <sebner> -l
[22:56] <oni> i would do so
[22:57] <sebner> oni: and 4gb aren
[22:57] <sebner> oni: aren't enough because .... ?
[22:58] <oni> it is enough but not recommended
[22:58] <sebner> oni: also for parents?
[22:58] <Keybuk> *baffled*
[22:58] <ion_> :-)
[22:58] <Keybuk> I only have 2GB in any of my machines
[22:59] <sebner> because I actually have 500mb used from 2gb ram and 2mb swap from 2gb :)
[22:59] <sebner> Keybuk: ram or swap?
[22:59] <Keybuk> sebner: ram
[22:59] <sebner> Keybuk: cheap! :D
[22:59] <oni> sebner: don't know my parents don't have swap in their head
[23:00] <sebner> Keybuk: I could also buy a singlecore and use 1gb ram. so the pc is new but crap ^^
[23:00] <Keybuk> right, time for flight
[23:00] <Keybuk> l8r
[23:00] <sebner> and for me it's time for bed :D
[23:00] <sebner> gn8 folks
[23:00] <sebner> oni: and thx for the tipps
[23:00] <oni> n8
[23:00] <oni> np
[23:25] <TheMuso> Treenaks: I'll admit I was once like that, but experience has taught me otherwise.