/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/09/21/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

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=== ubottu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 23 Sep 15:00: Server Team | 24 Sep 17:00: QA Team | 24 Sep 22:00: Platform Team | 25 Sep 12:00: Ubuntu Mobile Team | 25 Sep 13:00: Desktop Team | 25 Sep 14:00: Ubuntu Java
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artirjoin #ubuntu-desktop19:37
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nathangrubbthe meeting's in like 30 minutes right?22:56
edavidburgI believe so22:59
nathangrubbJoeb454: you know you aren't allowed in here ;)23:03
Joeb454orly?23:04
nathangrubbya rly23:04
nathangrubbgo back to your cage23:04
p_quarlesthis is why we can't have nice things23:05
nathangrubbLOL23:05
edavidburghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/zeonzumdeikun/why_we_cant_have_nice_things.jpg23:06
nathangrubbedavidburg: I believe p_quarles linked to that once23:06
edavidburgI believe I just linked to that again23:07
=== nizarus_ is now known as nizarus
edavidburghello23:25
forumsmatthewgreetings, all23:25
nathangrubbhi forumsmatthew23:25
ubuntugeekhi23:25
nathangrubbwhoa the meeting starts in like 5 minutes appaently23:25
edavidburgIt does23:25
nathangrubb*apparently23:25
nathangrubbhello ubuntugeek23:26
ubuntugeekHey nathan23:26
ubuntugeekHey matthew23:26
* Rocket2DMn reports in23:26
ubuntugeekHey rocket23:26
edavidburgI should probably start paying attention then23:26
scaredpoetyup23:26
Rocket2DMnhey u-g23:26
nathangrubbhey Rocket2DMn23:26
Rocket2DMnhi23:26
forumsmattheware u-g and I the only FC members here so far?23:26
nathangrubbhey xhhux23:27
edavidburgLooks like it23:27
[xhhux]hallo grubby23:27
nathangrubbforumsmatthew: apparently23:27
forumsmatthewokay, I'll idle while we wait for at least one more...and see if I can give a nudge or two23:27
ubuntugeekI see Mike and John on gchat23:27
=== [xhhux] is now known as xhhux
ubuntugeekSpeaking of Mike23:27
forumsmatthewlol23:27
ubuntugeekHey mike23:27
nathangrubbhey Technoviking23:27
forumsmatthewMike!!23:27
Technovikinghiya23:27
nathangrubbaaaaaaaaaa23:28
nathangrubbI almost just pasted a password in here23:28
nathangrubb:|23:28
edavidburgTry it again23:28
nathangrubbedavidburg: lol23:28
forumsmatthewdon't worry, all we see is ********23:28
forumsmatthewsee?23:28
Rocket2DMnits ok nathangrubb it will appear as starts23:28
Rocket2DMnstars*23:28
nathangrubbeh not really23:28
edavidburghunter223:28
Rocket2DMnthats a classic bash.org one23:28
p_quarlesforumsmatthew: shut up I hack you23:28
forumsmatthewlol23:29
* nathangrubb thought you were serious for a minute23:29
forumsmatthewdo you need my IP?23:29
p_quarles:)23:29
nathangrubbdialup is painful as I've said to edavidburg about 5 times23:29
nathangrubbp_quarles: it's 127.0.0.123:29
Technovikingtry to hack me, my IP is 127.0.0.123:29
Rocket2DMnwow nathangrubb your desktop looks just like mine!23:29
ubuntugeekAlrightly folks shall we get started?23:29
Rocket2DMnhow long do these meetings usually last?23:29
ubuntugeekhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda23:30
forumsmatthewlet's get started23:30
Rocket2DMnis kiwi showing up?23:30
ubuntugeekFirst up.. Policies and future of OMGPP forum23:30
edavidburgAha.23:30
nathangrubbedavidburg: pay attention23:30
edavidburgI am23:30
ubuntugeekThere has been discussion about the OMGPP forum as of late, controversy etc. The question stands do we need a forum like this in UF.23:31
edavidburgI think it helps the feel of a community23:32
forumsmatthewI was one of the primary proponents of creating the section when we started it23:32
forumsmatthewI am not so sure now23:32
edavidburgBut there are alternatives to hosting is on UF.org.... *cough*23:33
ubuntugeekTake into consideration that the OMGPP takes alot of resources and doesn't really represent what the forum is about. We have a general cafe area for off-topic stuff.23:33
forumsmatthewThe cafe is important, I think, because we are more than a mere tech support forum, we are a community23:33
ubuntugeekedavidburg: that is correct23:33
nathangrubbubuntugeek: the cafe seems to be more geared towards linux23:33
forumsmatthewbut, we have prioritized the tech side23:33
forumsmatthewand that needs to be the focal point of our time and energies23:33
forumsmatthewwhile supporting community23:33
ubuntugeekforumsmatthew: correct23:33
forumsmatthewthe cafe doesn't have to be linux related, just light hearted and not really controversial23:34
Rocket2DMnOPP takes a lot of time to moderate and much of the crowd that hands out there is not participating in the rest of the forum regularly.  They tend to be a small, but very vocal porition of the forum community.  When issues are reported and infractions are issued, it seems that more often than not they take their problems to the Res. Center, unlike users in the rest of the forum who simply adjust and move on.23:34
edavidburgI would be willing to take on some of that responsibility23:35
Rocket2DMn"free speech" seems to be a major issue, and it is difficult for the volunteering moderators to determine where to draw the line on agression in OPP23:35
ubuntugeekRocket2DMN23:35
Joeb454free speech can never exist on a moderated forum, I think some people have trouble understanding that23:35
Joeb454hi by the way :)23:35
ubuntugeekYou are right, it would be alot easier if the forums turned its focus to the technical aspects of the distro then catering to a small portion of people who want to be controversial.23:36
nathangrubbhey Joeb454, and yes, people in OMGPP seem to complain alot in the res center23:36
Technovikingmaybe we should state once a thread is closed in OMGPP it will not be re-opened23:37
forumsmatthewWe have had to revisit the rules and moderation of this section of the forums numerous times. We have tried a lot of things. I'm out of ideas23:37
ubuntugeekI am going to propose that we shutdown the OMGPP forum, we will leave the cafe open and it will continue to provide a general off-topic non-contraversial area for discussion. I think we will have no problem providing a few links to other forums that are in the nature of the OMGPP for a short period of time.23:37
p_quarlesJoeb454: the issue is less one of free speech than one of perceived "fairness" -- this is where people begin to feel slighted, rightly or wrongly, and what has been incredibly difficult to address in a way that satisfies anyone23:37
edavidburgTechnoviking: then what's the point of the Res center?23:37
Rocket2DMnI'm glad you agree.  From a personal standpoint, when I was invited to help moderate the forums, I hopped on board to hel pkeep the Ubuntu Forums running smoothly, not to moderate poliitcal/religious/etc arguments23:37
nathangrubbedavidburg: the res center isn't just for omgpp23:38
Technovikingedavidburg: for problem in the other areas of the forums23:38
forumsmatthewubuntugeek, I am going to support the idea23:38
forumsmatthewthe Res Center is designed to be a place to deal with issues from the entire forums community, not just one section23:38
forumsmatthewit has been used, effectively, by people who have had legitimate complaints on many occasions23:38
edavidburglike me :)23:39
ubuntugeekAs of late the OMGPP forum has kind of overrun the res center.23:39
Rocket2DMnI was originally in favor of simply adjusting OPP to be more professional through changing the name, ditching the text color, and adjusting the rules, but it seems that any incarnation of the backyward/OPP is going to create problems23:39
forumsmatthewit has simply been used a lot more because of drama from OMGPP23:39
Technovikingi do feel if OMGPP closed down, the tome of the cafe and other areas will change for the worse23:39
edavidburgTechnoviking: I think if there were offsite links to help the transtition that would be minimized23:39
ubuntugeektechnoviking: probably, but we will make adjustments and people will need to understand23:40
forumsmatthewTechnoviking, I share the concern, but in those areas we have clear rules as to what is and is not permissible, and rules that are not as easily argued about "but, this means..."23:40
ubuntugeekedavidburg: exactly23:40
nathangrubband there are already many omgpp regulars on nomgpp23:40
p_quarlesTechnoviking: that is why I think we need to make certains topics (e.g., my religion is better than yours) 100% off limits23:40
p_quarlesI think that much of the discontent we moderators face is directly related to the fact that people are allowed to start such topics, but have to be exceedingly careful about stepping on anyone's toes -- and we the staff don't have any kind of objective distance on those issues23:41
TechnovikingI also feel that OMGPP may have need to go, but I feel there will be backlash23:41
forumsmatthewin the cafe, we can say a clear "no religious discussions" rule. Politics will be a little more difficult and we will need to discuss how to deal with that23:42
ubuntugeektechnoviking: Change is good, people will adapt23:42
forumsmatthewmany things in the FOSS world revolve around political discussions and opinions23:42
forumsmattheweven so, I think we can adapt23:42
ubuntugeekforumsmatthew: agreed23:42
forumsmatthewand the political stuff has been less divisive typically23:42
nathangrubb+1 forumsmatthew23:42
p_quarlesforumsmatthew: I agree; personally, I would encourage a policy of "politics related to tech? yes; politics of the Iraq war? no"23:43
forumsmatthewespecially if we prohibit discussions of specific elections, national politics, etc, and keep the political discussions more broad23:43
ubuntugeekp_quarles: i'll go along with that23:43
edavidburgforumsmatthew: +123:43
Joeb454I'd like OMGPP to stay, but I also support closing it23:44
nathangrubbhey jacob23:44
Joeb454or will the cafe become an off-topic area for anything within reason?23:44
jacobhey nathangrubb (/me sneaks in late)23:45
ubuntugeekThe proposal is we will close the OMGPP forum on Oct 1, we will allow no religious topics in the cafe, political discussions need to be related to technical discussions. And we will provide links to a couple forums that relate to the OMGPP for 2 weeks.23:45
nathangrubbJoeb454: well forumsmatthew said 'light hearted discussions', so23:45
Joeb454ubuntugeek, seems fair enough23:45
forumsmatthewI think we will need to discuss topics that would be reasonable for the cafe in a little more detail, but something like "try to keep it fun and lighthearted" would be a good baseline23:45
ubuntugeek+123:45
edavidburgubuntugeek: +123:45
Joeb454+123:45
scaredpoet+123:45
forumsmatthewubuntugeek, +123:45
nathangrubb+123:45
Rocket2DMn+123:45
Joeb454forumsmatthew, I think some of the OK (I admit it's not many) threads from OMGPP should be allowed in the revised cafe23:46
xhhux+123:46
Joeb454i.e. the recent thread about the ill cat23:46
Technoviking+123:46
forumsmatthewJoeb454, maybe. Instead of moving them, members could just restart as needed23:46
nathangrubb+123:46
Joeb454I think that was quite a nice story and it had a lot of people talking, in an amicable manner23:46
Joeb454forumsmatthew, that's what I meant23:46
forumsmatthewIs there anyone opposed?23:46
Joeb454I didn't know how to word it though23:46
nathangrubbhey jacob23:46
edavidburgjdong: you're late23:46
jdongack look who got sidetracked...23:46
nathangrubber tab complete fail23:46
nathangrubbI meant jdong23:46
ubuntugeekGreat, we have a decision. Matthew since you are so elegant with your words would you like to make the post about OMGPP closing on Oct123:47
forumsmatthewI can do that. It might even get posted later today23:47
ubuntugeekThanks23:48
ubuntugeekI brought John up to speed on the proposal23:48
jdongsorry for coming in late; for the record I'm also +1 on the proposal23:48
jdongthanks ubuntugeek for filling me in23:48
nathangrubbubuntugeek: john?23:48
forumsmatthewis there any further comment on this topic before we move on?23:48
edavidburgnathangrubb: jdong = john dong23:48
forumsmatthewnathangrubb, jdong==john23:48
forumsmatthewlol23:48
ubuntugeekShall we move on to the next item?23:48
edavidburgsync!23:48
nathangrubbah23:48
nathangrubbYAY23:49
ubuntugeekAdditional default options for more consistency in giving warnings/infractions - http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=91267623:49
edavidburgforumsmatthew: can I tell my forum about the decision or keep it on the DL until your post is up?23:49
Rocket2DMnYeah, that's me.23:49
nathangrubbtoo bad I can't see that thread23:49
ubuntugeekStaff thread nathan..23:50
forumsmatthewif you can keep it quiet briefly, until I have a chance to post, that would be cool. This is a public meeting, so it isn't a secret, but if we can confine the comments in UF to one thread, that would be great23:50
nathangrubbYeah I figured23:50
ubuntugeekRocket i'll let you discuss this since its your item :)23:50
edavidburgforumsmatthew: alright, mum's the word.23:50
Rocket2DMnUsers sometimes complain that the staff is not equal and/or consistent when it comes to handling warnings and infractions.  While I support staff members using their best judgment in any situation, I think having more pre-set options for dishing out warnings/infractions will make life easier for staff and more fair to the users at the wrong end of the stick.23:51
ubuntugeekPre-set in the infraction menu?23:51
ubuntugeekLooking at the post I think that is what you mean ..23:52
Rocket2DMnwell, keep the option to assign a custom infraction as we have.  my first post in that thread lists the currently existing "default" options, i was hoping to expand on those23:52
jdongyeah, so we have a consistent # of points and expiry time for various common violations23:52
ubuntugeekI don't see a reason we cannot adjust that23:52
jdongour current stock list was made when we initially set up infractions23:53
jdongand the list really doesn't cover a lot of the stuff we use infractions for  these days23:53
jacobpost #10 has a bunch of them that would be useful in that thread23:53
jdongyeah I'm looking at that right now23:53
p_quarlesanother point to go along with Rocket2DMn's idea: sometimes people complaining about an infraction will fixate on the title reason (e.g., inappropriate language) and ignore the more nuanced explanation sent to the user in the PM -- having more and more general infraction reasons could help avoid that'23:53
jacobthough i personally would disagree about a canned root-login infraction, that is definitely a case-by-case basis23:53
jdongjacob: I'd like to replace that with an 'unsafe advice' infraction23:54
p_quarles+1 jacob23:54
ubuntugeekI'll post #10 here for everyone to see23:54
ubuntugeek•Inappropriate Language23:54
ubuntugeek•Insulted Other Member(s)23:54
ubuntugeek•Insulting Post(s)23:54
ubuntugeek•Signature Rule Violation23:54
ubuntugeek•Insulted Staff Member(s) - Infraction23:54
ubuntugeek•Enabling root Login Discussion - Infraction (for those who actually tell users how to do it)23:54
jacobjdong: sounds good23:54
ubuntugeek•Illegal Activity - Warning or Infraction option23:54
ubuntugeek•Duplicate Account - Infraction23:54
ubuntugeek•Thread hijacking - Warning23:54
ubuntugeek•Excessive bumping - Warning23:54
ubuntugeek•Cross-posting - Warning23:54
ubuntugeek•Spammed Advertisements23:54
jdongin addition, I'd like to merge all the "Insulted *" into a single infraction type23:54
jacobwhoops i broke the paste :P23:54
* jdong also hits ubuntugeek with that last infraction on the list :D23:54
ubuntugeekheh :P23:55
ubuntugeekI don't see a problem adding those23:55
forumsmatthewI think this could be a very valuable addition23:55
ubuntugeek+123:55
forumsmatthew+123:55
Technoviking+123:55
jdong+1, though I think the specific wording needs a bit more tweaking23:55
ubuntugeekjdong: agreed23:55
Rocket2DMnreword as needed23:55
jdongYeah, we can hammer out the specifics on the wiki as needed over the next week and implement it when we're all happy23:56
p_quarlesmaybe instead of "insulting posts" we have "trolling/flamebaiting"23:56
forumsmatthewjdong, +123:56
ubuntugeekI'll take care of the implementation of this one..23:56
jdongthanks :)23:57
ubuntugeekI'll post these on the ForumCouncilAgenda wiki and we can tweak them23:57
Rocket2DMnThat sounds good, will you make a post in SCC for us if you want the rest of the staff to post feedback?23:58
Rocket2DMnotherwise the Council can just decide what is best.23:59
jdongno I think all the staff should have input23:59
ubuntugeekYep23:59
ubuntugeekjdong: +123:59
forumsmatthewI agree, let's get as many staff who are willing/able to contribute their thoughts, even if it is "this looks good"23:59

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