[19:37] <artir> join #ubuntu-desktop
[19:38] <artir>  /join #ubuntu-desktop
[22:56] <nathangrubb> the meeting's in like 30 minutes right?
[22:59] <edavidburg> I believe so
[23:03] <nathangrubb> Joeb454: you know you aren't allowed in here ;)
[23:04] <Joeb454> orly?
[23:04] <nathangrubb> ya rly
[23:04] <nathangrubb> go back to your cage
[23:05] <p_quarles> this is why we can't have nice things
[23:05] <nathangrubb> LOL
[23:06] <edavidburg> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v99/zeonzumdeikun/why_we_cant_have_nice_things.jpg
[23:06] <nathangrubb> edavidburg: I believe p_quarles linked to that once
[23:07] <edavidburg> I believe I just linked to that again
[23:25] <edavidburg> hello
[23:25] <forumsmatthew> greetings, all
[23:25] <nathangrubb> hi forumsmatthew
[23:25] <ubuntugeek> hi
[23:25] <nathangrubb> whoa the meeting starts in like 5 minutes appaently
[23:25] <edavidburg> It does
[23:25] <nathangrubb> *apparently
[23:26] <nathangrubb> hello ubuntugeek
[23:26] <ubuntugeek> Hey nathan
[23:26] <ubuntugeek> Hey matthew
[23:26]  * Rocket2DMn reports in
[23:26] <ubuntugeek> Hey rocket
[23:26] <edavidburg> I should probably start paying attention then
[23:26] <scaredpoet> yup
[23:26] <Rocket2DMn> hey u-g
[23:26] <nathangrubb> hey Rocket2DMn
[23:26] <Rocket2DMn> hi
[23:26] <forumsmatthew> are u-g and I the only FC members here so far?
[23:27] <nathangrubb> hey xhhux
[23:27] <edavidburg> Looks like it
[23:27] <[xhhux]> hallo grubby
[23:27] <nathangrubb> forumsmatthew: apparently
[23:27] <forumsmatthew> okay, I'll idle while we wait for at least one more...and see if I can give a nudge or two
[23:27] <ubuntugeek> I see Mike and John on gchat
[23:27] <ubuntugeek> Speaking of Mike
[23:27] <forumsmatthew> lol
[23:27] <ubuntugeek> Hey mike
[23:27] <nathangrubb> hey Technoviking
[23:27] <forumsmatthew> Mike!!
[23:27] <Technoviking> hiya
[23:28] <nathangrubb> aaaaaaaaaa
[23:28] <nathangrubb> I almost just pasted a password in here
[23:28] <nathangrubb> :|
[23:28] <edavidburg> Try it again
[23:28] <nathangrubb> edavidburg: lol
[23:28] <forumsmatthew> don't worry, all we see is ********
[23:28] <forumsmatthew> see?
[23:28] <Rocket2DMn> its ok nathangrubb it will appear as starts
[23:28] <Rocket2DMn> stars*
[23:28] <nathangrubb> eh not really
[23:28] <edavidburg> hunter2
[23:28] <Rocket2DMn> thats a classic bash.org one
[23:28] <p_quarles> forumsmatthew: shut up I hack you
[23:29] <forumsmatthew> lol
[23:29]  * nathangrubb thought you were serious for a minute
[23:29] <forumsmatthew> do you need my IP?
[23:29] <p_quarles> :)
[23:29] <nathangrubb> dialup is painful as I've said to edavidburg about 5 times
[23:29] <nathangrubb> p_quarles: it's 127.0.0.1
[23:29] <Technoviking> try to hack me, my IP is 127.0.0.1
[23:29] <Rocket2DMn> wow nathangrubb your desktop looks just like mine!
[23:29] <ubuntugeek> Alrightly folks shall we get started?
[23:29] <Rocket2DMn> how long do these meetings usually last?
[23:30] <ubuntugeek> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
[23:30] <forumsmatthew> let's get started
[23:30] <Rocket2DMn> is kiwi showing up?
[23:30] <ubuntugeek> First up.. Policies and future of OMGPP forum
[23:30] <edavidburg> Aha.
[23:30] <nathangrubb> edavidburg: pay attention
[23:30] <edavidburg> I am
[23:31] <ubuntugeek> There has been discussion about the OMGPP forum as of late, controversy etc. The question stands do we need a forum like this in UF.
[23:32] <edavidburg> I think it helps the feel of a community
[23:32] <forumsmatthew> I was one of the primary proponents of creating the section when we started it
[23:32] <forumsmatthew> I am not so sure now
[23:33] <edavidburg> But there are alternatives to hosting is on UF.org.... *cough*
[23:33] <ubuntugeek> Take into consideration that the OMGPP takes alot of resources and doesn't really represent what the forum is about. We have a general cafe area for off-topic stuff.
[23:33] <forumsmatthew> The cafe is important, I think, because we are more than a mere tech support forum, we are a community
[23:33] <ubuntugeek> edavidburg: that is correct
[23:33] <nathangrubb> ubuntugeek: the cafe seems to be more geared towards linux
[23:33] <forumsmatthew> but, we have prioritized the tech side
[23:33] <forumsmatthew> and that needs to be the focal point of our time and energies
[23:33] <forumsmatthew> while supporting community
[23:33] <ubuntugeek> forumsmatthew: correct
[23:34] <forumsmatthew> the cafe doesn't have to be linux related, just light hearted and not really controversial
[23:34] <Rocket2DMn> OPP takes a lot of time to moderate and much of the crowd that hands out there is not participating in the rest of the forum regularly.  They tend to be a small, but very vocal porition of the forum community.  When issues are reported and infractions are issued, it seems that more often than not they take their problems to the Res. Center, unlike users in the rest of the forum who simply adjust and move on.
[23:35] <edavidburg> I would be willing to take on some of that responsibility
[23:35] <Rocket2DMn> "free speech" seems to be a major issue, and it is difficult for the volunteering moderators to determine where to draw the line on agression in OPP
[23:35] <ubuntugeek> Rocket2DMN
[23:35] <Joeb454> free speech can never exist on a moderated forum, I think some people have trouble understanding that
[23:35] <Joeb454> hi by the way :)
[23:36] <ubuntugeek> You are right, it would be alot easier if the forums turned its focus to the technical aspects of the distro then catering to a small portion of people who want to be controversial.
[23:36] <nathangrubb> hey Joeb454, and yes, people in OMGPP seem to complain alot in the res center
[23:37] <Technoviking> maybe we should state once a thread is closed in OMGPP it will not be re-opened
[23:37] <forumsmatthew> We have had to revisit the rules and moderation of this section of the forums numerous times. We have tried a lot of things. I'm out of ideas
[23:37] <ubuntugeek> I am going to propose that we shutdown the OMGPP forum, we will leave the cafe open and it will continue to provide a general off-topic non-contraversial area for discussion. I think we will have no problem providing a few links to other forums that are in the nature of the OMGPP for a short period of time.
[23:37] <p_quarles> Joeb454: the issue is less one of free speech than one of perceived "fairness" -- this is where people begin to feel slighted, rightly or wrongly, and what has been incredibly difficult to address in a way that satisfies anyone
[23:37] <edavidburg> Technoviking: then what's the point of the Res center?
[23:37] <Rocket2DMn> I'm glad you agree.  From a personal standpoint, when I was invited to help moderate the forums, I hopped on board to hel pkeep the Ubuntu Forums running smoothly, not to moderate poliitcal/religious/etc arguments
[23:38] <nathangrubb> edavidburg: the res center isn't just for omgpp
[23:38] <Technoviking> edavidburg: for problem in the other areas of the forums
[23:38] <forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, I am going to support the idea
[23:38] <forumsmatthew> the Res Center is designed to be a place to deal with issues from the entire forums community, not just one section
[23:38] <forumsmatthew> it has been used, effectively, by people who have had legitimate complaints on many occasions
[23:39] <edavidburg> like me :)
[23:39] <ubuntugeek> As of late the OMGPP forum has kind of overrun the res center.
[23:39] <Rocket2DMn> I was originally in favor of simply adjusting OPP to be more professional through changing the name, ditching the text color, and adjusting the rules, but it seems that any incarnation of the backyward/OPP is going to create problems
[23:39] <forumsmatthew> it has simply been used a lot more because of drama from OMGPP
[23:39] <Technoviking> i do feel if OMGPP closed down, the tome of the cafe and other areas will change for the worse
[23:39] <edavidburg> Technoviking: I think if there were offsite links to help the transtition that would be minimized
[23:40] <ubuntugeek> technoviking: probably, but we will make adjustments and people will need to understand
[23:40] <forumsmatthew> Technoviking, I share the concern, but in those areas we have clear rules as to what is and is not permissible, and rules that are not as easily argued about "but, this means..."
[23:40] <ubuntugeek> edavidburg: exactly
[23:40] <nathangrubb> and there are already many omgpp regulars on nomgpp
[23:40] <p_quarles> Technoviking: that is why I think we need to make certains topics (e.g., my religion is better than yours) 100% off limits
[23:41] <p_quarles> I think that much of the discontent we moderators face is directly related to the fact that people are allowed to start such topics, but have to be exceedingly careful about stepping on anyone's toes -- and we the staff don't have any kind of objective distance on those issues
[23:41] <Technoviking> I also feel that OMGPP may have need to go, but I feel there will be backlash
[23:42] <forumsmatthew> in the cafe, we can say a clear "no religious discussions" rule. Politics will be a little more difficult and we will need to discuss how to deal with that
[23:42] <ubuntugeek> technoviking: Change is good, people will adapt
[23:42] <forumsmatthew> many things in the FOSS world revolve around political discussions and opinions
[23:42] <forumsmatthew> even so, I think we can adapt
[23:42] <ubuntugeek> forumsmatthew: agreed
[23:42] <forumsmatthew> and the political stuff has been less divisive typically
[23:42] <nathangrubb> +1 forumsmatthew
[23:43] <p_quarles> forumsmatthew: I agree; personally, I would encourage a policy of "politics related to tech? yes; politics of the Iraq war? no"
[23:43] <forumsmatthew> especially if we prohibit discussions of specific elections, national politics, etc, and keep the political discussions more broad
[23:43] <ubuntugeek> p_quarles: i'll go along with that
[23:43] <edavidburg> forumsmatthew: +1
[23:44] <Joeb454> I'd like OMGPP to stay, but I also support closing it
[23:44] <nathangrubb> hey jacob
[23:44] <Joeb454> or will the cafe become an off-topic area for anything within reason?
[23:45] <jacob> hey nathangrubb (/me sneaks in late)
[23:45] <ubuntugeek> The proposal is we will close the OMGPP forum on Oct 1, we will allow no religious topics in the cafe, political discussions need to be related to technical discussions. And we will provide links to a couple forums that relate to the OMGPP for 2 weeks.
[23:45] <nathangrubb> Joeb454: well forumsmatthew said 'light hearted discussions', so
[23:45] <Joeb454> ubuntugeek, seems fair enough
[23:45] <forumsmatthew> I think we will need to discuss topics that would be reasonable for the cafe in a little more detail, but something like "try to keep it fun and lighthearted" would be a good baseline
[23:45] <ubuntugeek> +1
[23:45] <edavidburg> ubuntugeek: +1
[23:45] <Joeb454> +1
[23:45] <scaredpoet> +1
[23:45] <forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, +1
[23:45] <nathangrubb> +1
[23:45] <Rocket2DMn> +1
[23:46] <Joeb454> forumsmatthew, I think some of the OK (I admit it's not many) threads from OMGPP should be allowed in the revised cafe
[23:46] <xhhux> +1
[23:46] <Joeb454> i.e. the recent thread about the ill cat
[23:46] <Technoviking> +1
[23:46] <forumsmatthew> Joeb454, maybe. Instead of moving them, members could just restart as needed
[23:46] <nathangrubb> +1
[23:46] <Joeb454> I think that was quite a nice story and it had a lot of people talking, in an amicable manner
[23:46] <Joeb454> forumsmatthew, that's what I meant
[23:46] <forumsmatthew> Is there anyone opposed?
[23:46] <Joeb454> I didn't know how to word it though
[23:46] <nathangrubb> hey jacob
[23:46] <edavidburg> jdong: you're late
[23:46] <jdong> ack look who got sidetracked...
[23:46] <nathangrubb> er tab complete fail
[23:46] <nathangrubb> I meant jdong
[23:47] <ubuntugeek> Great, we have a decision. Matthew since you are so elegant with your words would you like to make the post about OMGPP closing on Oct1
[23:47] <forumsmatthew> I can do that. It might even get posted later today
[23:48] <ubuntugeek> Thanks
[23:48] <ubuntugeek> I brought John up to speed on the proposal
[23:48] <jdong> sorry for coming in late; for the record I'm also +1 on the proposal
[23:48] <jdong> thanks ubuntugeek for filling me in
[23:48] <nathangrubb> ubuntugeek: john?
[23:48] <forumsmatthew> is there any further comment on this topic before we move on?
[23:48] <edavidburg> nathangrubb: jdong = john dong
[23:48] <forumsmatthew> nathangrubb, jdong==john
[23:48] <forumsmatthew> lol
[23:48] <ubuntugeek> Shall we move on to the next item?
[23:48] <edavidburg> sync!
[23:48] <nathangrubb> ah
[23:49] <nathangrubb> YAY
[23:49] <ubuntugeek> Additional default options for more consistency in giving warnings/infractions - http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=912676
[23:49] <edavidburg> forumsmatthew: can I tell my forum about the decision or keep it on the DL until your post is up?
[23:49] <Rocket2DMn> Yeah, that's me.
[23:49] <nathangrubb> too bad I can't see that thread
[23:50] <ubuntugeek> Staff thread nathan..
[23:50] <forumsmatthew> if you can keep it quiet briefly, until I have a chance to post, that would be cool. This is a public meeting, so it isn't a secret, but if we can confine the comments in UF to one thread, that would be great
[23:50] <nathangrubb> Yeah I figured
[23:50] <ubuntugeek> Rocket i'll let you discuss this since its your item :)
[23:50] <edavidburg> forumsmatthew: alright, mum's the word.
[23:51] <Rocket2DMn> Users sometimes complain that the staff is not equal and/or consistent when it comes to handling warnings and infractions.  While I support staff members using their best judgment in any situation, I think having more pre-set options for dishing out warnings/infractions will make life easier for staff and more fair to the users at the wrong end of the stick.
[23:51] <ubuntugeek> Pre-set in the infraction menu?
[23:52] <ubuntugeek> Looking at the post I think that is what you mean ..
[23:52] <Rocket2DMn> well, keep the option to assign a custom infraction as we have.  my first post in that thread lists the currently existing "default" options, i was hoping to expand on those
[23:52] <jdong> yeah, so we have a consistent # of points and expiry time for various common violations
[23:52] <ubuntugeek> I don't see a reason we cannot adjust that
[23:53] <jdong> our current stock list was made when we initially set up infractions
[23:53] <jdong> and the list really doesn't cover a lot of the stuff we use infractions for  these days
[23:53] <jacob> post #10 has a bunch of them that would be useful in that thread
[23:53] <jdong> yeah I'm looking at that right now
[23:53] <p_quarles> another point to go along with Rocket2DMn's idea: sometimes people complaining about an infraction will fixate on the title reason (e.g., inappropriate language) and ignore the more nuanced explanation sent to the user in the PM -- having more and more general infraction reasons could help avoid that'
[23:53] <jacob> though i personally would disagree about a canned root-login infraction, that is definitely a case-by-case basis
[23:54] <jdong> jacob: I'd like to replace that with an 'unsafe advice' infraction
[23:54] <p_quarles> +1 jacob
[23:54] <ubuntugeek> I'll post #10 here for everyone to see
[23:54] <ubuntugeek> 	•	Inappropriate Language
[23:54] <ubuntugeek> 	•	Insulted Other Member(s)
[23:54] <ubuntugeek> 	•	Insulting Post(s)
[23:54] <ubuntugeek> 	•	Signature Rule Violation
[23:54] <ubuntugeek> 	•	Insulted Staff Member(s) - Infraction
[23:54] <ubuntugeek> 	•	Enabling root Login Discussion - Infraction (for those who actually tell users how to do it)
[23:54] <jacob> jdong: sounds good
[23:54] <ubuntugeek> 	•	Illegal Activity - Warning or Infraction option
[23:54] <ubuntugeek> 	•	Duplicate Account - Infraction
[23:54] <ubuntugeek> 	•	Thread hijacking - Warning
[23:54] <ubuntugeek> 	•	Excessive bumping - Warning
[23:54] <ubuntugeek> 	•	Cross-posting - Warning
[23:54] <ubuntugeek> 	•	Spammed Advertisements
[23:54] <jdong> in addition, I'd like to merge all the "Insulted *" into a single infraction type
[23:54] <jacob> whoops i broke the paste :P
[23:54]  * jdong also hits ubuntugeek with that last infraction on the list :D
[23:55] <ubuntugeek> heh :P
[23:55] <ubuntugeek> I don't see a problem adding those
[23:55] <forumsmatthew> I think this could be a very valuable addition
[23:55] <ubuntugeek> +1
[23:55] <forumsmatthew> +1
[23:55] <Technoviking> +1
[23:55] <jdong> +1, though I think the specific wording needs a bit more tweaking
[23:55] <ubuntugeek> jdong: agreed
[23:55] <Rocket2DMn> reword as needed
[23:56] <jdong> Yeah, we can hammer out the specifics on the wiki as needed over the next week and implement it when we're all happy
[23:56] <p_quarles> maybe instead of "insulting posts" we have "trolling/flamebaiting"
[23:56] <forumsmatthew> jdong, +1
[23:56] <ubuntugeek> I'll take care of the implementation of this one..
[23:57] <jdong> thanks :)
[23:57] <ubuntugeek> I'll post these on the ForumCouncilAgenda wiki and we can tweak them
[23:58] <Rocket2DMn> That sounds good, will you make a post in SCC for us if you want the rest of the staff to post feedback?
[23:59] <Rocket2DMn> otherwise the Council can just decide what is best.
[23:59] <jdong> no I think all the staff should have input
[23:59] <ubuntugeek> Yep
[23:59] <ubuntugeek> jdong: +1
[23:59] <forumsmatthew> I agree, let's get as many staff who are willing/able to contribute their thoughts, even if it is "this looks good"