[01:32] <mickstephenson1> I'm sorry, I didn't want to commit this to the list, but "Kyūdō is the Japanese art of archery" will annoy many people, including myself.
[01:33] <mickstephenson1> Archery in itself is the English word for the art of archery
[05:07] <PRGUY85> hey what's this about kyu-do
[06:08] <Serway> hey guys, does anyone know how to remove the icon next to the applications places systems menu?????????? just remove it, not replace it...........disabling it would be nice :) thanks
[06:58] <Serway> cookie to whomever solves this http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=926522
[07:19] <slow_> its start-here.png
[07:19] <slow_> depending on your icon theme and panel size
[07:20] <slow_> just search for /usr/share/icons/(theme name)/(panel size)/places/start-here.png
[10:01] <JoeyReds> Cool, I'm posting this from my iPhone...
[10:04] <JoeyReds> Now I can irc from work!
[10:05] <JoeyReds> They block 3g buy edge still gets through.
[10:05] <JoeyReds> *but
[10:12] <JoeyReds> *sigh* no-one cares....
[10:32] <JoeyReds> Anyone alive?
[10:49] <kwwii> sooooo...good morning everyone
[10:49] <carciofo> yeah, have a good morning
[12:15] <JoeyReds_> Everyone still dead here?
[12:32] <thorwil> hello!
[12:46] <thorwil> hi _MMA_
[12:48]  * _MMA_ waves
[12:58] <_MMA_> I'm around. Just trying to wake up and take care of some "A.M." things.
[12:58] <thorwil> not in a hurry for anything :)
[12:59] <_MMA_> thorwil: Sure. I did push the fixes to the template SVG for Breathe.
[12:59] <_MMA_> The integer issue.
[12:59] <thorwil> _MMA_: i'll look into bg colors in the coming hours
[13:00] <thorwil> interesting to see what happened to the special characters in Kyudo
[13:00] <_MMA_> Ok. Please do. I want to put them into the template and 6 icons we're gonna focus on to start ASAP.
[13:01] <thorwil> they are intact in Giuseppe's reply, but broken to u- and o- on yours
[13:02] <_MMA_> Yeah. I saw that. Weird.
[13:03] <thorwil> the fun thing s that i copied it from wikipedia and never entered them manually, don't even know how ;)
[13:04] <thorwil> _MMA_: replied to you mail. forgot about that question as i concentrated on cheering people up. also no mention about the relation to Breathe, yet
[13:09] <thorwil> kyudo main page had 84 views yesterday and 66 today. around 20 views for both days on sub pages
[13:10] <_MMA_> Sure, sure. I don't think it needs specific mention of it though.
[13:10] <_MMA_> If anything, we mention it on the Breathe page as it's design guidelines.
[13:10] <thorwil> ok
[13:12] <_MMA_> "Breathe falls under our Kyūdō community design guidelines." or something.
[13:16] <thorwil> kwwii: the locks on you palette mark the CoC colors?
[13:16] <thorwil> of course they do
[13:17] <kwwii> thorwil: right
[13:18] <_MMA_> kwwii: Are you on Planet?
[13:18] <kwwii> I keep hoping to find some time to help with the icons
[13:18] <kwwii> _MMA_: I think so, but I never blog :p
[13:19] <_MMA_> How about you post about Kyūdō?
[13:19] <kwwii> very seldom
[13:19] <kwwii> yeah, I could do that
[13:19] <_MMA_> Give you something to talk about. :)
[13:19] <_MMA_> cool
[13:19] <kwwii> hehe, right
[13:19] <thorwil> i'm only on graphics-planet :/
[13:20] <_MMA_> kwwii: I added a generic mime icon. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons. It's real obvious though how heavy the shadow is. Even between those icons, the shadows are inconsistent.
[13:23] <kwwii> _MMA_: one suggestion, the shadows and stuff will have to be universal but at first try different things out...it is easy to change that later
[13:23] <thorwil> so there we have laying-on-desk-viewed-from-above, face on and front/top from slightly above
[13:24] <kwwii> and personally, I think that the page flap thingy is out-of-date and only makes the small icons harder to understand
[13:24] <thorwil> yes, i guess a little chaos on the start is hard to avoid and actually healthy
[13:24] <_MMA_> kwwii: Sure. I just wanted to note that. Also, it's weird it looks like 2 different cd icons are used.
[13:25] <kwwii> yeah, that is the difference between the angle of view
[13:25] <kwwii> crappy, if you ask me
[13:25] <thorwil> the disc in drive-optical appears to be out-of-perspective
[13:26] <kwwii> thorwil: yes, I agree
[13:26] <kwwii> it looks like it was just scaled and not scaled to the perspective
[13:26] <_MMA_> kwwii: The *only* reason I wanna stay with the flap is because re-creating all the mimes will be a bitch. Though, I guess it wouldn't be too bad to re-use everything but the base file image.
[13:26] <thorwil> _MMA_: don't fear the bitch :)
[13:27] <_MMA_> :P
[13:28] <kwwii> _MMA_: actually, once a new mimetype template is made it would not be too hard to exchange them all
[13:28] <kwwii> something for someone who is learning how to do icon art, I think
[13:29] <thorwil> if only we could graphic design students to do this :)
[13:29] <_MMA_> kwwii: Yeah. That was my latter thought.
[13:30]  * kwwii gets lunch, bbiab
[13:30] <thorwil> i wonder to how low a number i should get those bg colors
[13:30]  * _MMA_ goes to make breakfast for the kids.
[13:31]  * thorwil goes to feel lonely
[13:31] <_MMA_> thorwil: Im still unsure how to present them in the template.
[13:32] <thorwil> _MMA_: we want as fast as possible switching between them. should cover a large area, if not full area
[13:33] <thorwil> using layers would be easy, but not terrible fast
[13:34] <thorwil> should ask inkscape people
[13:56] <_MMA_> kwwii: Got any alt base mime icon ideas?
[13:57] <rsc-> hey guys.
[13:58] <_MMA_> hi
[13:59] <rsc-> how do you get a @ubuntu/member/mma hostname?
[13:59] <rsc-> :b
[14:01] <Ziroday> kwwii: any decision on the deviantart thing?
[14:01] <_MMA_> Demonstrate a continued contribution to Ubuntu. Don't just do it for the fashion though. As many people do.
[14:02] <_MMA_> rsc-: ^^^
[14:02] <rsc-> well, is there a way for me to hide my IP in the mean time?
[14:02] <_MMA_> Ziroday: Can you tell me what the "Deviantart thing" was? As there a couple of ideas floating around.
[14:03] <_MMA_> rsc-: I'm sure there is but I have no clue.
[14:03] <Ziroday> _MMA_: certaintly, it was trying to get deviantart artists interested into making a wallpaper via a wallpaper compeition
[14:03] <Ziroday> rsc-: join #freenode and request one there
[14:04] <Ziroday> _MMA_: however deviantart is refusing to even consider the idea unless there is some type of official sponsership
[14:04] <Ziroday> _MMA_: in what capacity I am not sure
[14:04] <Ziroday> _MMA_: lemme find the original spec for you
[14:04] <Ziroday> _MMA_: here is the general idea https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/deviantart-theme-competition
[14:05] <Ziroday> _MMA_: so its kwwii's choice regarding what happens next. I am merely the humble messenger :)
[14:05] <_MMA_> Ziroday: Than IMO DeviantArt is crap. The "official" art is up to Canonical. Why wouldn't DeviantArt be fine with a community lead effort?
[14:05] <Ziroday> _MMA_: I had very much the same opinion they weren't the er...
[14:06] <Ziroday> lets say the most welcoming of people
[14:06] <Ziroday> anyway haven't heard back from kwwii in a while and I know he is busy so I thought I would try to corner him on irc :D
[14:06] <_MMA_> Sure. I've been in this game for a while and have watched their growth. A bit elitist if you ask me.
[14:07] <Ziroday> _MMA_: however they do have some _very_ good artists
[14:07] <Ziroday> but they are still to the heart a company
[14:07] <Ziroday> through and through
[14:07] <aantn> Ziroday: can't you try to contact individual deviantart artists?
[14:07] <Ziroday> aantn: I was going to discuss this all with kwwii
[14:08] <_MMA_> In any case, if Canonical doesn't like the winner of the DeviantArt contest than it won't go in. Sure to cheese people off.
[14:08] <Ziroday> aantn: also that might anger the DA community, us picking the "best" people
[14:08] <aantn> _MMA_: it's extremely unlikely that not a single decent piece of artwork will result
[14:08] <aantn> Ziroday: it's not the best
[14:09] <aantn> Ziroday: invite everyone to join, but begin by contacting the people you think are the best
[14:09] <Ziroday> aantn: thats not a bad idea
[14:09] <aantn> Ziroday: in other words, have an open contest by working around the company
[14:09] <Ziroday> _MMA_: yes another issue, if canonical does sponser the DA competition whatever stuff they make will HAVE to be the default
[14:10] <aantn> there wont be an official category on the website, but asides from that it'll be the same
[14:10] <aantn> _MMA_: not necessarily
[14:10] <Ziroday> aantn: I am not sure I have quite that standing in DA
[14:10] <aantn> it should be installed by default, though
[14:10] <aantn> Ziroday: almost the same then
[14:10] <_MMA_> There's no guarantee.
[14:10] <aantn> use the social networking tools to drive it forward
[14:11] <Ziroday> aantn: I understand
[14:11] <_MMA_> It's Canonical's discretion.
[14:11] <Ziroday> however kwwii final decision
[14:11] <_MMA_> Ziroday: Not really. It's Marks.
[14:12] <aantn> what's going to be the default theme in Ibex?
[14:12] <Ziroday> _MMA_: sorry, kwwii -> marl
[14:12] <Ziroday> aantn: who knows
[14:12] <_MMA_> What's there now?
[14:12] <aantn> Ziroday: I heard a rumor that Canonical had hired someone to work on one? Is that at all true?
[14:12] <_MMA_> No. It's just an art director.
[14:13] <Ziroday> aantn: don't ask me :)
[14:13] <_MMA_> Someone to try to coordinate the overall branding, look & feel of everything.
[14:14] <aantn> _MMA_: ok, nice
[14:14] <_MMA_> And that's a major reason why a DA effort might not happen. It could simply not fit that direction.
[14:14] <_MMA_> Whatever it ends up being.
[14:14]  * Ziroday nods along with _MMA_
[14:14] <aantn> _MMA_: still, there's a good chance that something good will come out of it
[14:15] <aantn> worst case scenario is that you include one theme that you think doesn't fit the feel (but still has enough popular support to have one the contest)
[14:15] <_MMA_> aantn: Well it depends on too many "ifs" for me atm.
[14:15] <Ziroday> however I still think the idea is a good one, reach CC artists who may not have been considering making something for ubuntu but could be very capable and create an easy process for them to come in
[14:15] <aantn> _MMA_: only one "if", really
[14:15] <_MMA_> No. About 3.
[14:15] <Ziroday> in this case in the form of a wallpaper competition, possibly something simialr to the kde4 one
[14:16] <aantn> Ziroday: yeah
[14:16] <_MMA_> hahah
[14:16] <rsc-> re: default Ibex theme, it'd probably be Human again. the UI freeze already happened, and the latest betas still feature Human.
[14:16] <Ziroday> aantn: also space on the release cd is extremely tight
[14:16] <aantn> rsc-_: In case I haven't told you, Dust is awesome :)
[14:16] <_MMA_> Yet another vague swirly thing? :) I'd rather not.
[14:16] <rsc-> aantn, haha thanks :)
[14:16] <aantn> _MMA_: ha
[14:17] <Ziroday> _MMA_: could be worse, at least we don't have a dead ibex
[14:17] <aantn> Ziroday: :-D
[14:17] <_MMA_> aantn: So *if* the other "ifs" go through, you're gonna manage the whole DA thing right?
[14:17] <aantn> _MMA_: me?
[14:17] <rsc-> aantn, you hate the scrollbars too, yes? ;)
[14:18] <_MMA_> aantn: Sure. Why not?
[14:18] <Ziroday> aantn: I will work with ya
[14:18] <aantn> _MMA_: I wouldn't really classify myself as an artist... but if you need someone then I'd love to do it
[14:19] <Ziroday> aantn: as far as I can tell *if* it goes through it will be a fairly simple job. Set up a place to submit work somewhere have good criteria (more or less done already) and publicize it to death
[14:20] <Ziroday> and we can host it similar to the current CC showcase competition is being done
[14:20] <_MMA_> As far as the blueprint goes simply "* CC licensed" will not work. It must be specific ones recognized by Debian as ok. CC-BY-SA 3 is used alot lately.
[14:20] <aantn> _MMA_: to be honest, I'd love to consider myself an artist, but at the moment I'm working on one or two other projects that are stealing away pure artistic time
[14:20] <aantn> _MMA_: coding is art, anyway :)
[14:20] <aantn> Ziroday: if it gets approval, then yes, I'd do that
[14:21] <Ziroday> however this all goes in a large circle -> back to kwwii
[14:21] <Ziroday> who we wait on :)
[14:21] <aantn> Ziroday: yeah
[14:21] <aantn> out of curiosity, how many people here (dis)like *-look.org
[14:23] <_MMA_> Reading further through the blueprint, there are several rules/ideas that only make a recipe for genericness.
[14:24] <Ziroday> _MMA_: what would you change?
[14:24] <_MMA_> Many of the ideas depend on audience.
[14:24] <_MMA_> "*Not too busy to distract from the desktop's contents"
[14:24] <Ziroday> the audience has to be everyone :) as always
[14:24] <_MMA_> What's busy for one is not another.
[14:25] <_MMA_> Ziroday: There's no such thing.
[14:25] <Ziroday> _MMA_: well if you want to help reword it please do
[14:25] <aantn> _MMA_: you can still get close
[14:25] <Ziroday> you can add to the whiteboard
[14:25] <aantn> _MMA_: that's not specific to the DA contest... we already face that issue
[14:26] <_MMA_> Ziroday: ATM, I manage Ubuntu Studio, am taking over the Ubuntu community art team, working, and raising a family. You can take my comments for what they're worth.
[14:28] <aantn> _MMA_: :)
[14:28] <_MMA_> aantn: Ziroday's blueprint is specific to the contest.
[14:29] <Ziroday> _MMA_: didn't mean it to be mean in any way
[14:29] <Ziroday> also thats not my blueprint
[14:29] <aantn> _MMA_: I know... my point was that it's not really any more limiting than the current process
[14:29] <Ziroday> I am merely picking up the ball and trying to get it moving
[14:29] <aantn> one other thing, does anyone know exactly what Mark meant about the user interface improvements in Jaunty?
[14:30] <_MMA_> Ziroday: I didn't take it personally. ;) And you linked to the blueprint so I just used your name because it was the one I currently associate with the link.
[14:30] <Ziroday> no worries
[14:30] <_MMA_> aantn: Ask him. sabdfl on freenode.
[14:31] <_MMA_> He's on now.
[14:31] <Ziroday> aantn: if you do find out please let us know
[14:31] <aantn> _MMA_: sabdfl == Mark Shuttleworth?
[14:31] <_MMA_> Yes
[14:31] <Ziroday> aantn: yes Self Appointed Benevolent Dictator For Life
[14:31] <aantn> Ziroday: ah, right :)
[14:31] <aantn> _MMA_: thanks... I guess I should just pm him?
[14:33] <_MMA_> Up to you.
[14:35] <aantn> he's away
[14:37] <Ziroday> kwwii: ping me when you're awake please
[14:40] <kwwii> Ziroday: ping
[15:02] <thorwil> _MMA_: down to 4 bg colors plus white. should i even bother to put that up, or just mail you?
[15:03] <_MMA_> Mail
[15:05] <thorwil> done
[15:06] <_MMA_> Thanx
[15:06] <thorwil> _MMA_: ok if i ask on inkscape list if they have an idea for fast bg swicthing?
[15:07] <_MMA_> thorwil: I'm chatting with tedg (Inkscape/Canonical guy) now about the script and more changes to the template.
[15:07] <thorwil> ah, cool :)
[15:07] <_MMA_> Can't we just turn on/off a layer?
[15:08] <thorwil> _MMA_: that can take switching 2 layers for one change
[15:08] <_MMA_> Depends on how you set it up. Ill look at your file.
[15:09] <thorwil> now. if it is withink inkscape's capabilities, switching bg color of the document tied to shortcuts and/or extra buttons would rock
[16:15] <_MMA_> kwwii thorwil: Around?
[16:16] <rsc-> hey guys.
[16:16] <aantn> hey rsc-
[16:17] <rsc-> so anyway, do you guys know on what the state is for the artwork for intrepid?
[16:17] <rsc-> will the community contributions be included? how? whats the default theme now? wallpaper? what about breathe? etc
[16:17] <_MMA_> rsc-: kwwii is best to chime in.
[16:17] <rsc-> :)
[16:18] <rsc-> yes, but there hasn't been a word from him lately about this, yeah?
[16:19] <_MMA_> rsc-: Maybe on the ML.
[16:24] <aantn> rsc-: I don't believe breathe will be going in intrepid... isn't it past the freeze?
[16:26] <thorwil> _MMA_: plop
[16:27] <thorwil> aantn: no need for believe, breathe is just about to start and intrepid is pretty much at the doors
[16:28] <aantn> thorwil: ok, thanks
[16:28] <rsc--> aha.
[16:28] <aantn> unfortunately :(
[16:28] <_MMA_> aantn: Oh no. Breathe is not even close to release. We will see some semblance of a release for Jaunty if people really step up. Even then, there's nothing that says it will be default.
[16:28] <aantn> _MMA_: yeah, I know
[16:28] <aantn> _MMA_: I've been doing my best to follow it on the mailing list and wiki
[16:29] <aantn> _MMA_: the folder overlays are neat
[16:29] <thorwil> aantn: why are you following? how about running forward to pull it? ;)
[16:31] <_MMA_> There will be the official start of work on it very soon. Still trying to get the technicals sorted.
[16:31] <aantn> thorwil: I'd like to
[16:32] <thorwil> aantn: what's keeping you back?
[16:32] <aantn> thorwil: I'm a bit busy with Universal Applets, but I'm going to look into the floder-overlay concept
[16:32] <aantn> s/floder/folder
[16:32] <thorwil> aantn: cool. what do you mean with folder-overlay, though? :)
[16:33] <aantn> thorwil: I'm going to be at the GNOME User Experience hackfest, so I'll try to bring it up there
[16:33] <aantn> thorwil: overlaying a preview of the folder's contents on the folder
[16:33] <thorwil> aha!
[16:33] <aantn> e.g. http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/raraken/example_mk2.png
[16:34] <aantn> on that note, I think I like the glossless icons better
[16:35] <thorwil> aantn: i have been thinking about doing away with folder graphics, to just turn them into a rectangle with just a little bling. to then place a little icon view unto them
[16:35] <JoeyReds__> Very nice icons
[16:35] <aantn> thorwil: what do you mean?
[16:36] <aantn> thorwil: and the icons are a bit better in this http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/raraken/example_mk2.png than this, I think
[16:36] <aantn> thorwil: sorry, than this http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y111/raraken/example_mk3.png
[16:36] <thorwil> aantn: i mean doing away with graphically expressing the folder metaphor. to instead concentarte to do the best job of giving more info about the contents
[16:36] <JoeyReds__> Yeah,  I think the paper folder image has become a little overused. Something more abstract would be nice.
[16:36] <aantn> in example_mk2.png its a bit brighter
[16:37] <aantn> thorwil: ah, yeah
[16:37] <aantn> JoeyReds__: that's true, but it's also what people expect
[16:37] <aantn> there's often a price to pay for breaking expectations
[16:37] <thorwil> aantn: if you see a chance of getting things to move in that way, i can create a brief mockup
[16:38] <aantn> thorwil: cool
[16:38] <JoeyReds__> True, but in this instance I think you can change expectations.
[16:38] <aantn> JoeyReds__: I would think so
[16:39] <_MMA_> I'm also pretty confidant that if we want to land in Ubuntu the folder will have to stay.
[16:39] <JoeyReds__> Yeah, true.
[16:39] <_MMA_> I'm not for bowing to every request. Just finding common ground. Ultimatly,
[16:39] <thorwil> sure. some innovation has to happen outside ;)
[16:39] <_MMA_> gah
[16:40] <_MMA_> Ultimately, if there's too much "Change this", it ain't gonna happen. Our vision will win out overall.
[16:40] <thorwil> aantn: say, do you have a blog or something?
[16:41] <aantn> thorwil: http://theesylum.com
[16:42] <thorwil> _MMA_: template appears to be alright. but you should not add all those colors
[16:42] <thorwil> _MMA_: i did hide the additional palettes in my file, or?
[16:42] <aantn> I need to run out for an hour or so, but I'm planning on writing a post that mentions the overlays when I get back
[16:42] <_MMA_> thorwil: I'll ax whatever you want.
[16:42] <_MMA_> *axe
[16:43] <thorwil> _MMA_: i think that there should only be the bg colors from my central set of 4 + white
[16:44] <thorwil> _MMA_: as it just to much work and confusing to have that many bg colors
[16:44] <_MMA_> I think those +the 3 Ubuntu colors.
[16:45] <thorwil> _MMA_: think about it. will we place icons on the logo? on big spots of pretty intense red, orange and yellow?
[16:46] <_MMA_> Just for reference.
[16:46] <thorwil> _MMA_: add colored rectangles outside the page, then
[16:47] <thorwil> it has to be clear that those 3 are foreground colors
[16:58] <thorwil> gmail must make it really hard to use mailing lists :}
[16:59] <_MMA_> Not really. You just have to know how to use it with them is all.
[17:02] <kwwii> re
[17:02] <thorwil> _MMA_: should have read the template instructions earlier, but i'm suffering from diverted attention right now :)
[17:02] <_MMA_> kwwii: Read back. A couple of questions for you.
[17:02] <thorwil> _MMA_: what's with the text objects?
[17:02] <_MMA_> thorwil: The instructions?
[17:03] <thorwil> _MMA_: "How does this work?" in the template
[17:04] <_MMA_> It was there from jimmak's file and I think it useful for new people.
[17:05] <kwwii> rsc--: intrepid artwork is still unfinished, expect a wallpaper and some other changes this week
[17:05] <thorwil> _MMA_: i think it is confusing and it might be pushing the filesize up quite a bit
[17:05] <thorwil> _MMA_: so to use these, on should add a text object with the icon name?
[17:05] <kwwii> rsc--: as to whether any community artwork will make it into the release as default artwork, at this time I doubt it but that might change if someone makes something amazing
[17:06] <thorwil> _MMA_: the plates have their size in the Label fields, excpet for the big one: Label: "this is unneeded even"
[17:06] <_MMA_> thorwil: Removing the text makes a 3k difference.
[17:06] <_MMA_> thorwil: I'm still working on it. And remember,
[17:07] <_MMA_> This will be a complex thing to start.
[17:07] <_MMA_> I won't dumb it down too far.
[17:08] <thorwil> _MMA_: do a Edit: Vacuum defs, save and look at the file size
[17:09] <thorwil> inkscape keeps gardient definitions around unless you do a vaccum
[17:09] <_MMA_> ahh...
[17:10] <_MMA_> killer.
[17:10] <kwwii> you always want to do a vacuum defs
[17:10] <kwwii> and the key to doing it is to save the file after editing it, then reopen it and do the vacuum defs
[17:10] <_MMA_> kwwii: Could account for why my Severed Fifth file is huge.
[17:10] <kwwii> otherwise you will not get them all
[17:10] <kwwii> _MMA_: that is what I meant about all the extra header info
[17:11] <thorwil> never noticed the need for reopening
[17:11] <_MMA_> Gah. No dice. Was pretty clean. :P
[17:12] <thorwil> _MMA_: what? it went from 537 to 27.8 KB
[17:12] <_MMA_> thorwil: Different file I was talking to Ken about.
[17:12] <thorwil> _MMA_: i would think the icon size part for the filename comes from the labels. if the icon name is taken from a text object, it should already be in the file
[17:12] <thorwil> ah, ok
[17:13] <_MMA_> And Im down to 18. :)
[17:13] <thorwil> no beer for you, then!
[17:13]  * thorwil shakes low flying associations off
[17:14] <_MMA_> The path and filename come from the layer name. After I get the template sorted, I put an Icon in to show. Let's stick to the palette subject for now. 1 thing at a time.
[17:14] <thorwil> ok
[17:21] <_MMA_> thorwil: Re-download template.
[17:26] <thorwil> _MMA_: take care to not ship with the palette layer set to invisible
[17:27] <kwwii> why do you need a palette layer?
[17:27] <kwwii> can't one just make a gimp palette and use it like that?
[17:27] <_MMA_> thorwil: Why?
[17:27] <thorwil> _MMA_: Ubuntu Colors -> Logo Colors, please. if you move them a tad to the left i'll be happy :)
[17:27] <kwwii> or are you trying to reference the palette objects so that you can change the colors with a script or something?
[17:27] <thorwil> _MMA_: Ubuntu colors could mean the entire palette in use
[17:28] <thorwil> kwwii: having 4 layers there is enough reason to group them :)
[17:28] <_MMA_> thorwil: No. I mean why make them visible? One should turn them on/off as needed.
[17:29] <kwwii> I do not understand why you need to palette layer at all really
[17:29] <thorwil> _MMA_: the palette layer itself was turned off. this way, you can click all you want on the other, no colors show up. so this would be a help-desk issue ;)
[17:30] <_MMA_> kwwii: thorwil thought it would be good to A/B the icons against different colors we care about.
[17:30] <kwwii> _MMA_: ahhh, ok...although it seems like something like that would be better done on a webpage somehow
[17:31] <kwwii> but I won't get bitchy
[17:31] <kwwii> tomorrow is beta freeze
[17:31] <_MMA_> We can do both/
[17:31] <_MMA_> .
[17:31] <kwwii> so I guess I gotta have a wallpaper ready by then
[17:31] <thorwil> kwwii: webpage doesn't help you when you are editing icons
[17:32] <thorwil> kwwii: is there anything that could be it almost, but not quite yet?
[17:33] <_MMA_> thorwil: Redownload. I will not ship the top-layer invisible but below will be.
[17:35] <kwwii> thorwil: yeah, I am working on a new version of wallpaper (the one with the dots)
[17:35] <_MMA_> kwwii: ATM, I just need thoughts on the template. Maybe later, we can do something like jimmaks website.
[17:35] <kwwii> thorwil: yeah, for editing I guess it is a good idea, but I would not use the logo colors to base things on as the icons are never shown near those colors
[17:36] <thorwil> kwwii: that's along the lines of what i told _MMA_ :)
[17:36] <_MMA_> No. The my idea to have them there is for color-cues for use *in* the icons.
[17:37] <_MMA_> ie: Im working on an icon and wonder what the Ubuntu Orange is?
[17:37] <thorwil> kwwii: but the icons would do well to harmonize with the logo. so the trio from the CoC is there as reference
[17:38] <_MMA_> I just need to get the template solidified before I update the other SVGs.
[17:39] <_MMA_> Then, I can test Teds new script.
[17:39] <kwwii> well the colors of the logo are not shown anywhere on the desktop...I would rather suggest to find the colors nearest them which are used on the desktop and worry about that, but I won't bitch
[17:41] <_MMA_> kwwii: Then we can drop the use of Orange altogether in Human right?
[17:41] <thorwil> hooray!
[17:41]  * thorwil -> dinner
[17:41] <kwwii> _MMA_: in that form definitely...we don't come close to that color in the folders or such
[17:42] <kwwii> it is a much warmer, less saturated orange
[17:42] <kwwii> same with the yellow
[17:42] <_MMA_> Ok. Than I think we should add those colors to the template. Ones to be used in the actual icons.
[17:43] <_MMA_> Link to those offhand?
[17:44] <kwwii> nope, but they are easy to get
[17:45] <kwwii> I gotta run to the store to get something for dinner before they close
[17:45] <_MMA_> Ok. But I need ya when ya get back.
[17:45] <JoeyReds__> Pickup a forty for me homes!
[17:45] <kwwii> no worries, I will be up late tonight making a wallpaper
[18:09] <rsc--> where can I get help on setting up a PPA for a gtk theme?
[18:10] <_MMA_> #launchpad
[18:13] <kwwii> we should put some info or a good link to setting up a ppa
[18:13] <kwwii> it is really not that hard
[18:17] <thorwil> plop
[18:18] <_MMA_> Ok. So we gotta decide on a kinda palette. Colors we'd like to see used in the icons where wanted. Like the Orange on the folders.
[18:19] <_MMA_> I have no clue here and will take cues from others.
[18:19] <thorwil> _MMA_: i think we should let people play a bit, solely based on the bg colors
[18:19] <thorwil> _MMA_: it will lessen the danger to copy what is there already
[18:21] <_MMA_> Sure, but I feel there are also color cues we should hit. Or we risk doing alot and not feeling like Human.
[18:22] <rsc--> kwwii: i've been trying to do it for days, I can't even make a source package right now >_<
[18:23] <_MMA_> Well that's a whole other issue.
[18:35] <thorwil> good evening, nand
[18:35] <nand> good evening thorwil. And good luck with your project!
[18:36] <thorwil> nand: heh, thanks! we can always use a critical eye ;)
[18:36] <nand> honestly, it seems pretty abstract to me, but well, I do not have an artistic point of view
[18:37] <thorwil> nand: it's design, not art ;)
[18:37] <nand> :)
[18:38] <nand> I would maybe expect some milestones
[18:38] <nand> that would help push the effort, IMO
[18:39] <thorwil> can't set them without knowing who is on board and before we have made out the size of the mountain
[18:39] <nand> indeed, that's pretty young
[18:41] <nand> and because the front page is not clear : is the goal a theme, a new UI, a whole undefined area?
[18:41] <nand> not yet defined too? :)
[18:42] <thorwil> nand: a bit of all that. but on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines/Foundation you find a briefing
[18:43] <nand> that's indeed pretty vast :)
[18:43] <nand> I wish you good luck at gathering and managing a team!
[18:44]  * nand gogo dinner
[18:44] <thorwil> nand: i think that the theme and all other artwork should be adjusted to each other. that's why i didn't limit things to theming directly, i just say that's what we concentrate on first
[18:44] <thorwil> nand: bon appetite
[18:44] <nand> :)
[18:59]  * DanaG likes bright orange... it's a color psychology thing.
[19:00]  * thorwil thinks it'd good that Troy isn't here
[19:00] <DanaG> Can't say I know who Troy is.
[19:01] <DanaG> But I mean that I find blue, and grey (or is it "gray"?) a bit gloomy sometimes.
[19:01] <thorwil> you would get to know him right now if he were here ;)
[19:01] <aantn> kwwii: there's a lot of support for Dust on the wiki and digg
[19:02] <aantn> kwwii: if one theme gets to go in by default, I think Dust would make most of the community happy
[19:03] <thorwil> DanaG: it all depends on the exact shade and context. siganl orange amidst calm colors is terribly agressive. a spot of orange next to foggy colors might be pure joy
[19:03]  * DanaG goes off elsewhere.
[19:04] <DanaG> That's true.
[19:04] <DanaG> Anyway, I have to go off elsewhere for now.
[19:05] <thorwil> well, have fun
[19:08] <thorwil> dust is good work, but i can't shake off the feeling that the dark/bright contrast breaks the windows apart
[19:11] <aantn> thorwil: understandable
[19:14] <rsc--> why's it good that Troy's not here?
[19:14] <rsc--> he hates orange? :)
[19:14] <thorwil> rsc--: no, just broad statements like that
[19:15] <rsc--> ahh.
[19:17] <thorwil> rsc--: regarding good work, i would love to see you take part in project kyudo :)
[19:18] <rsc--> thorwil, what exactly is Kyudo, anyway?
[19:18] <rsc--> I do like the manifesto and the brief with the 'target audience', though.
[19:18] <rsc--> I must say that's some good direction in setting a vision -- better than the "Make something kickass" we've had to go along for quite a while
[19:18] <thorwil> rsc--: at the moment, kyudo is what you find on the wiki
[19:18] <rsc--> ...but I'm still not sure on what Kyudo itself is.
[19:19] <rsc--> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines/Foundation ?
[19:19] <thorwil> rsc--: initially, it is the briefing. it will be extended by research, requirements, concpetion, design
[19:19] <Nece228> gtk2 or qt3, which is faster?
[19:20] <thorwil> rsc--: yes, Foundation contains the briefing and the very core
[19:20] <_MMA_> Neither.
[19:20] <rsc--> from what I'm reading, it seems like an extensive overhaul. not just with the easily-customizable aspects (theme, sound, etc) -- but aesthetics/usability of upstream apps, and even marketing and packaging.
[19:20] <rsc--> would I be right about that?
[19:20] <rsc--> Nece228, on modern systems, I think benchmarking one over the other would be a moot point.
[19:21] <thorwil> rsc--: that is only the really long term idea. i have written that mainly because i think tht it all should be adjusted to each other
[19:21] <thorwil> rsc--: and because much of the foundation for the theme is also of interest for the website and such
[19:22] <rsc--> Nece228, also, a "gtk vs. qt" benchmark can't be precisely measurable or realistic since QT apps will have many things on top of them (KDE system, etc) and same with GTK.
[19:22] <thorwil> rsc--: so, those who get involved now only need to be interested in theming, actually
[19:22] <rsc--> thorwil, I like it.
[19:23] <thorwil> rsc--: cool, ty
[19:23] <rsc--> thorwil, just gotta work on disseminating that vision, and making some short-term goals. :)
[19:23] <rsc--> I'd help out in any way I can.
[19:23] <thorwil> rsc--: great. a note of support on the list might help already ;)
[19:24] <thorwil> rsc--: the part i'm most insecure about is the target audience and what he conclusions should be there
[19:27] <rsc--> I've been ruminating about the whole "target audience" for quite a bit now and my conclusions so far are quite similar to yours
[19:27] <rsc--> any arguments against your thoughts so far?
[19:28] <_MMA_> kwwii thorwil: I need a set of "Suggested colors" for the template ASAP.
[19:30] <thorwil> rsc--: so far there is no discussion about that. i mean, excpet what happened before it went on the wiki. i talked with Troy alot :)
[19:31] <rsc--> okay.
[19:31] <rsc--> replying to the mailing list thread now. :)
[19:31] <thorwil> rsc--: his blog, btw http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/
[19:31] <thorwil> rsc--: with posts such as http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2008/08/ubuntu-design-part-1-who-should-be.html
[19:31] <_MMA_> Should be: http://grumpy-art-guy.blogspot.com
[19:32] <rsc--> ah, yeah.
[19:32] <rsc--> ive been talking to him every now and then too.
[19:33] <thorwil> lol
[19:33] <_MMA_> rsc--: He has mentioned you to me.
[19:33] <rsc--> [and hes' not quite happy with the direction of dust, heh :)]
[19:33] <thorwil> rsc--: he keeps your work in high regard
[19:34] <rsc--> so i hear
[19:41] <thorwil> _MMA_: if you want colors today, i could only directly sample from human. from the impression it left here, i would say you need just one orange and some bright gray. i perceive that as it's weakness, though
[19:42] <_MMA_> Which? The orange or gray?
[19:43] <thorwil> _MMA_: both. the overbearing orange with very little to break it up
[19:44] <_MMA_> That unfortunately will say "Human" to most familiar with Ubuntu. Mark also IIRC wants it. At least on the folders.
[19:45] <_MMA_> I do quite like Ken V.s folders. With some tweaks.
[19:45] <thorwil> i thought you wanted to get away from his Markness?
[19:45] <_MMA_> I said we will work with him. Not bow to every demand.
[19:46] <thorwil> _MMA_: Ken Vs folders are sexy, but problematic becasue of that bright line on the bottom and the reflection. that will not work for most other icons
[19:46] <_MMA_> And I agree the orange should stay anyway.
[19:46] <_MMA_> Then we just use it where it works.
[19:46] <rsc--> thorwil, okay, i posted some of my thoughts on the "Announcing Project Kyudo" thread. hopefully they make sense :b
[19:46] <_MMA_> Maybe *just* the folders.
[19:47] <thorwil> _MMA_: i'm ok with orange folders
[19:47] <_MMA_> thorwil: The web2.0 reflection has to go. I made a note of that. But the glow on the folders is unique.
[19:48] <_MMA_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons
[19:49] <thorwil> but for example, making navigation arrows orange is somewhat problematic, as it can be a signal/warning color. it surely doesn't say: all things normal, this is save to do
[19:52] <_MMA_> We're just talking about the folders atm. ;)
[19:53] <_MMA_> Here, I feel it fits. When we get to the nav buttons, it might not work. We'll deal with that then.
[19:53] <_MMA_> thorwil: And you better remember the audience thing about color there mister. ;)
[19:54] <thorwil> _MMA_: if i would be strict in the process, i would have to say that we can take no single step on the icons now ;)
[19:56] <rsc--> http://bp1.blogger.com/_95-BHeta7y8/SHEZ5YwZIKI/AAAAAAAAAbg/46Of1boiEZE/s1600-h/ff.jpg
[19:56] <_MMA_> Hell with that. We would be here for years. That's Troy's attitude. You can't plan everything.
[19:56] <rsc--> anyone with any thoughts on getting Breathe to go near that direction?
[19:57] <_MMA_> rsc--: Depends on who draws what and what a small trusted group thinks.
[19:58] <rsc-> what about you guys?
[19:58] <rsc-> I'd personally be interested in making more icons in that style.
[19:58] <_MMA_> What about us? We do know about that image. It's old.
[19:59] <rsc-> okay
[19:59] <_MMA_>  rsc-: I know that if we want any shot at being used as default we can't use the folder. So we would shoot ourselves in the foot from the start.
[19:59] <thorwil> rsc-: i'd be looking for something in the middle
[19:59] <_MMA_> So that's up to us a group to decide.
[20:00] <rsc-> what do you mean "use the folder"?
[20:00] <_MMA_> I'm unsure what other way to say it.
[20:01] <rsc-> as in, "use that folder image"? or "use something that realistically looks like a cardboard folder?"
[20:01] <thorwil> rsc-: shuttleworth hired a design agency to create the base set of human icons. the single most important icon is the folder. Mark even said that he is especially interested in folders
[20:01] <rsc-> ah.
[20:01] <thorwil> rsc-: so that human folder tells us about what Mark likes and wants. at least wanted at some point
[20:02] <rsc-> I see
[20:02] <thorwil> rsc-: now _MMA_ wants breathe to have a real chance of being accpeted as default. this is a possible conflict with kyudo
[20:03] <_MMA_> Chance. Not depend.
[20:03] <thorwil> rsc-: i'm willing to make compromises because something is better than nothing and because our community sure as hell can't carry 2 icon efforts
[20:04] <rsc-> i see now
[20:04] <_MMA_> There's always gonna be some. You should hear kwwii's stories about Oxygen.
[20:04] <thorwil> rsc-: i also think it might end up to be a  small compromise, not mattering much in the long run
[20:05] <thorwil> _MMA_: i have human in icon-library now. if you really think it's helpful, i shall pick the main colors for you
[20:06] <_MMA_> I think it will be helpful to get a small group of colors to take cues from yes.
[20:07] <thorwil> coming within the next hour or less
[20:08] <_MMA_> Otherwise, I think we're just gonna end up with Oxygen and not the hybrid I had envisioned.
[20:08] <_MMA_> And I'll even take these colors to the ML for discussion.
[20:11] <thorwil> rsc-: that's a great reply and nice to see that you really understand what this is about. might not get to reply this evening, but i better leave room for others, anyway. thanks :)
[20:21] <thorwil> JoeyReds: hi! seen the project kyudo announcement on the list?
[20:24]  * _MMA_ takes a break.
[20:25] <JoeyReds> thorwil:  sorry, I was afk
[20:25] <JoeyReds> checking list now...
[20:28] <JoeyReds> looks good
[20:30] <thorwil> JoeyReds: would be cool if you join the fun. you could start with a note of support. Rico has some interesting points. of special interest to me right now are comments regarding the target audience and what the conclusions should be. what the selection means for the design
[20:35] <JoeyReds> yeah, I'll write something on the kind of processes I've come across.
[20:35] <thorwil> cool :)
[20:36] <JoeyReds> did you see the second mock-up I posted the other day?
[20:37] <thorwil> JoeyReds: the big buttons?
[20:37] <rsc-> which mockup is that?
[20:37] <JoeyReds> sorry, correction, I didn't post it to the list just threw it up here.
[20:38] <JoeyReds> thorwil: the one with the top buttons joined together.
[20:39] <thorwil> JoeyReds: yes. looked nice in that naked state. how does it look if you add icons?
[20:40] <_MMA_> Link to topic of discussion?
[20:41] <JoeyReds> it looks good, just playing about with text alignment at the mo.
[20:41] <JoeyReds> _MMA_:  the only link I can give is to a hosted image, I'm going to work on it a little more before I put it out there properly.
[20:42] <JoeyReds> http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=comp2jo2.jpg
[20:43] <_MMA_> JoeyReds: Ok. So what's the goal here?
[20:43] <JoeyReds> I wanted to first of all improve the breadcrumbs.
[20:43] <JoeyReds> I think currently they don't look enough like a path.
[20:43] <rsc-> I like the crumbs.
[20:43] <_MMA_> JoeyReds: Agreed.
[20:44] <rsc-> I've always thought of doing something like that too
[20:44] <JoeyReds> I also wanted to play about with a dark titlebar, there seems to be a lot of hoo-hahing (technical term) about dark themes, and I wanted to try and find a middle ground.
[20:44] <_MMA_> I wonder if that is a particular widget one could have specific settings for?
[20:45] <JoeyReds> plus, I'm a huge fan of the FF-Mac style back/next buttons, so I adapted them to fit the current window layout.
[20:45] <thorwil> rsc-:, JoeyReds: an old mockup with lots of problems, but you can see that i once thought along similar lines: http://thorwil.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/ubuntu_theme_32.jpg
[20:46] <JoeyReds> yeah I see. Looks nice.
[20:46] <thorwil> note that we have to be careful about things that are currently not possible, technically
[20:46] <_MMA_> +1
[20:46] <JoeyReds> yeah, I was wondering about that.
[20:47] <thorwil> while that shouldn't stop us from designing in that direction, we must always have something that _can_ be implemented directly
[20:47] <thorwil> for the upcoming release
[20:47] <JoeyReds> of course.
[20:47] <JoeyReds> so would that style of breadcrumbs be possible?
[20:48] <thorwil> JoeyReds: would likely require changes to GTK+
[20:48] <thorwil> Cimi: seen JoeyReds mockup with that breadrumb widget?
[20:48] <rsc-> i.e., not likely
[20:48] <Cimi> without taking care of it mockups and efforts are just a big waste of time. there are some HIGs to follow before disigning
[20:49] <Cimi> no thorwil
[20:49] <Cimi> which one?
[20:49] <thorwil> Cimi: http://img254.imageshack.us/my.php?image=comp2jo2.jpg
[20:49] <JoeyReds> just a few ideas.
[20:49] <JoeyReds> I guess I need a better understanding of what's possible.
[20:49] <Cimi> the one of yesterday?
[20:49] <rsc-> JoeyReds, what are the big empty buttons (next to forward) for?
[20:49] <JoeyReds> there were a couple yesterday, quite similar.
[20:49] <JoeyReds> rsc - Home, Computer, Search, Up Directory etc.
[20:50] <thorwil> Cimi: the question is what kind of changes on which level would be required to implement that?
[20:50] <JoeyReds> I'm good at designing for the web because I'm also a clientside developer, I can do XHTML strict, liquid layouts and JS Behavioural layers until the cows come home.
[20:50] <rsc-> JoeyReds, if you're to do a completely new interface for a file browser, why not consider moving "computer" and "home" elsewhere? the toolbar is for actions ("go back", "reload") and home/computer probably needs another place.
[20:51] <JoeyReds> and because I have this knowledge I can innovate, with Ubuntu I don't really know what's possible.
[20:51] <Cimi> bigbuttons prev/next or the address items?
[20:51] <thorwil> JoeyReds: that should help you to understand how theme engines and their configuration work, but of course you have to invest there. as do i :)
[20:51] <JoeyReds> prev/next with contextual drop downs.
[20:51] <thorwil> Cimi: address items
[20:51] <rsc-> just thinking in "designing with the need" in mind here. :) also, i'd imagine Search and Change View might be commonly-used, might wanna account for those too.
[20:52]  * _MMA_ would kill to be able to re-arrange the toolbars in Nautilus like you can in Epiphany.
[20:52] <rsc-> i'd kill for a better location bar like the one on Joeys mockup :)
[20:53] <JoeyReds> yes, this mock-up is far from finished.
[20:53] <rsc-> theyre like apple's breadcrumbs, but whattheheck.
[20:53] <Cimi> nothing that could be implemented without touching nautilus and gtk+
[20:53] <JoeyReds> I just wanted some feedback on the breadcrumbs and the prev/next really.
[20:53] <JoeyReds> I see.
[20:53] <rsc-> JoeyReds, a better presentation for the breadcrumbs, like the one you did, I think will get everyone's nods
[20:53]  * Cimi doesn't like both, sorry
[20:53] <rsc-> or most people's at least
[20:54] <JoeyReds> Cimi, fair enough, why? I like criticism. :)
[20:55] <rsc-> back button: a little more controversial. what about consistency with the rest of the OS? whats the reason behind enlarging it and the forward button? etc.
[20:55] <JoeyReds> better usability, they're used a great deal by most people I've spoken to.
[20:55] <Cimi> i don't think having big buttons for prev/next would be that useful... imagine that you're also adding a lot of padding to the toolbar wasting space
[20:56] <JoeyReds> Interesting, I suppose Linux users are a little more savvy.
[20:56] <thorwil> agreed reagrding the padding
[20:56]  * rsc- thinks the Nautilus toolbar right now is unnecessarily fat as it is
[20:56] <thorwil> oh yes
[20:56] <thorwil> i hate the browser view of nautilus :)
[20:57] <Cimi> for breadcrumbs... I don't like their design, anyway they should require work inside gtk+
[20:57] <rsc-> consider other options. how about consolidating the back/fwd onto the location bar (ala web browser).. just spewing out thoughts here
[20:57] <rsc-> I like the browser view for the location bar.
[20:57] <Cimi> rsc
[20:57] <JoeyReds> so each breadcrumb element is seperate from the next? no 'overlapping' as it were.
[20:58] <Cimi> the final solution would be a customizable toolbar
[20:58] <andreasn> what does the Main toolbar do that the breadcrumb don't?
[20:58]  * rsc- agrees with Cimi
[20:58] <Cimi> actually they are just simple buttons
[20:58] <Cimi> no special  cases
[20:59] <Cimi> you can draw them inside nautilus
[20:59] <Cimi> like banshee is drawing their widgets
[21:00] <rsc-> but then it won't follow the gtk theme, will it?
[21:00] <JoeyReds> Is there a wiki on the ins and outs of creating the UI, I don't' even know what language or IDE it's developed in.
[21:00] <Cimi> no they won't
[21:00] <rsc-> JoeyReds, GTK theming? you're on your own. :P most of the documentation i found on the net are either incomplete, outdated, or both :P
[21:01] <JoeyReds> hmm...
[21:01]  * Cimi is the best documentation currently available, honestly :P
[21:01] <JoeyReds> heh
[21:01] <JoeyReds> cool.
[21:02] <JoeyReds> do you come as a native app for iPhone?
[21:02] <Cimi> lol
[21:02] <rsc-> hehe, I think Cimi means that his GTK engine has the best documentation among all the others's
[21:02] <Cimi> no
[21:03] <Cimi> i meant that the documentation available is complicated, and the easier way to fixproblems in themes is to ask someone who did themes for years
[21:04] <rsc-> oh, right
[21:04] <rsc-> okay, well, how do I go about figuring out how to make an exception for certain apps for my GTK themes?
[21:04] <rsc-> :p
[21:05]  * JoeyReds <---ciggie break
[21:06] <Cimi> if the apps are naming their widgets you can, otherwise not
[21:06] <Cimi> usually you can't
[21:06] <thorwil> _MMA_: human colors in the mail. complete with screenshots i used, so you can easily improve/add to it, if you feel like
[21:08] <_MMA_> thanx.
[21:08] <_MMA_> gonna spend some time with the kids.
[21:08] <rsc-> Cimi, how do I find out if they are?
[21:08] <rsc-> is there some sort of inspector I can use?
[21:09] <Cimi> they don't
[21:12] <rsc-> some are.
[21:13] <rsc-> rhythmbox does, for instance
[21:15]  * thorwil finally manages to announce kyudo on his blog
[21:16] <thorwil> Cimi: i hope you will have a look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines, too :)
[21:16] <thorwil> good night!
[21:16] <Cimi> night
[21:16] <JoeyReds> night