[16:00] <newz2000> Hi everyone
[16:00] <newz2000> it's time to go on the start page
[16:17] <qense> hello
[16:20] <Erik_J> newz2000, currently we are very bussy that's why you didn't see more results.
[16:20] <newz2000> hola qense
[16:20] <newz2000> hey Erik_J
[16:21] <Erik_J> Hey
[16:21] <newz2000> I'm patient, I can wait. :-)
[16:21] <newz2000> Erik_J: just a warning, at the end of October we're going to change the homepage banner for the new release (as is tradition)
[16:22] <newz2000> probably by then you'll be to the paper-mockup stage, but just in case it may cause your testers to have a diff experience
[16:30] <Erik_J> is there a bzr repo with the ubuntu website? I need a easy way to make prototypes
[16:30] <newz2000> Erik_J: no, the website uses a content management system
[16:30] <Erik_J> making paper prototypes is boring and I have to do a lot of duplicate work
[16:31] <newz2000> Erik_J: you may just want to take screenshots of key pages and edit them in a graphics program
[16:31] <newz2000> you could then use image maps to make regions of the page clickable without actually writing a bunch of html
[17:16] <Erik_J> That is the best solution I think
[20:05] <omegamormegil> www.ubuntu.com > Get Involved link > Contribute section has nothing about helping with bugs or testing.  Are there plans to change that?  I keep hearing people talk about how more people need to get into iso testing and helping with bugs, and this seems like an obvious way to advertise.
[20:05] <newz2000> omegamormegil: good idea, I'm surprised its not there
[20:06]  * newz2000 looks
[20:06] <omegamormegil> bugs is mentioned, but it's extremely non-helpful.
[20:06] <newz2000> that's true for a lot of our content atm
[20:06] <omegamormegil> in the developer section.  But that only links to developer documentation.
[20:06] <newz2000> content is my first priority for jaunty cycle
[20:07] <omegamormegil> Just throwing links to the relevant wiki pages in there would be awesome.
[20:07] <newz2000> I think that linking to the testing section is a good idea because it explains the testing process as well as how to report bugs
[20:08] <newz2000> btw, I don't think I've met you yet omegamormegil, are you involved in the community?
[20:11] <omegamormegil> more or less.  I haven't done much on IRC before.  I try to help a tiny bit with bugs on launchpad, and I keep up with a few of the mailing lists.  I really don't have tons of spare time.  I would love to get more involved in a lot of different areas, but I find that there is a high learning curve.
[20:11] <newz2000> sure, well, I consider little things like this a big help, so I appreciate the feedback. ;-)
[20:11] <omegamormegil> great.
[20:14] <omegamormegil> One of the things I'd like to get involved in, is the aforementioned high learning curve.  The biggest reason I've found that the curve exists, is that it's hard to find information relevant to getting started.  Also, much of the information available is hard to understand without lots of semi-related knowledge, and is daunting for a newbie.  I've been using Ubuntu for almost two years, and I'm still working on getti
[20:14] <omegamormegil> ng anywhere understanding bug triage.  Time is the biggest issue for me
[20:15] <newz2000> is your plan to help modify the website content to make the process more clear?
[20:16] <newz2000> (I'm not trying to push you into something - just curious)
[20:17] <omegamormegil> The website is the first place a lot of people are going to be looking when they are trying to find direction.  I think having the website point at easy to understand primers would be a great help.
[20:17] <newz2000> I agree wholeheartedly
[20:17] <newz2000> if you have some 2 min fixes you'd like to propose, dropping by here and letting me know is great
[20:18] <newz2000> if you think bigger changes are necessary I have a different suggestion
[20:19] <newz2000> (btw, I just updated http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate )
[20:19] <newz2000> fortunately there was a cool looking icon on the testing wiki page. :-)
[20:20] <omegamormegil> awesome.  That's been bugging me for years :)
[20:20] <newz2000> for more elaborate changes, I'm absolutely open to suggestions. Probably the best thing to do is create a page under http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website that has the suggested changes, then report it to the mailing list. We can then hash it out and copy the chagnes over to the main site.
[20:59] <omegamormegil> Hey, I've been looking through some of the documentation, and noticed this page: http://www.ubuntu.com/community
[21:00] <omegamormegil> It has some redundancy.  Perhaps it should be merged with http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate
[21:00] <omegamormegil> http://www.ubuntu.com/community links to Documentation and Support twice.
[21:01] <newz2000> yes, it does have some redundancy, but that's well beyond the threshold of "more elaborate changes" I think
[21:01] <newz2000> You can never have too many links to documentation and support. ;-)
[21:01]  * newz2000 adds two more for good measure
[21:02] <newz2000> not to make lite of your comments, I'm happy to discuss ways to improve this, but probably the best way is to mock it up on the wiki and take it to the list
[21:03] <newz2000> you can create a page called https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/Content/Community
[21:03] <newz2000> and copy and paste in the content as you think it should be
[21:04] <newz2000> I wouldn't worry too much about formatting (it is a wiki - hard to format)
[21:04] <omegamormegil> Oh, I understand.  I guess I didn't see the threshhold of "more elaborate changes".
[21:04] <mdke> hi all
[21:04] <newz2000> more than 2 - 5 min to implement is "more elaborate" I think
[21:04] <newz2000> hey mdke!
[21:05] <mdke> newz2000: I totally flunked on the suckerfish challenge :(
[21:05] <newz2000> ah, well, you are a lawyer, so you can make it up in tort
[21:05]  * newz2000 knows few legal terms
[21:05] <mdke> I'm a bit rubbish at tort too, but a lot better than at CSS
[21:06] <newz2000> :-) Can I help?
[21:06] <mdke> newz2000: well... if you have time
[21:06] <newz2000> tell me the prob (or show me) and we'll see
[21:07] <mdke> well, it's more of a start from scratch thing; I played around with a few implementations but none worked so I reverted my changes
[21:07] <mdke> i wasn't even sure of the right html, let alone css
[21:07] <newz2000> do you want me to describe the solution to you and let you give it a try?
[21:08] <mdke> newz2000: that might work :) the main problem I guess was that all the tutorials I followed were vertical dropdown menus, and this is rather different
[21:09] <newz2000> here's what to do
[21:09] <newz2000> create a list with one item, the item will be always visible and will be what you hover over to show the menu.
<li id="showbar">Show it</li></ul>
[21:09] <mdke> yep
[21:10] <newz2000> before the closing </li> add a div that is the menu you want to appear
[21:10] <newz2000> so <div id="editbar">cool stuff here</div>
[21:10] <mdke> can there be a list inside the div?
[21:10] <newz2000> yes
[21:10] <mdke> great
[21:10] <newz2000> <ul id="editbar">...</ul> is fine
[21:10] <newz2000> Make that look just like you want it to when the menu is open
[21:11]  * newz2000 needs to test one thing before he goes any further
[21:11] <mdke> when you say "before the closing </li>"
[21:11] <mdke> do you mean "before the closing </ul>"?
[21:11] <newz2000> go ahead
[21:11] <newz2000> no
[21:11] <newz2000> inside the <li></li>
[21:11] <mdke> ah, ok, Iwas going so wrong :)
[21:12] <newz2000> ok, that's the hard part
[21:12] <newz2000> once that's done, you will hide the editbar like this:
[21:12] <newz2000> (using CSS)
[21:13] <newz2000> #showbar ul#editbar { display: none; }
[21:13] <newz2000> #showbar:hoever ul#editbar { display: block; }
[21:13] <newz2000> that's it pretty much
[21:17] <mdke> hmm
[21:18] <mdke> ah, hang on
[21:18] <mdke> above where you say "<ul id="editbar">... is fine"
[21:19] <newz2000> s/hoever/hover/
[21:19] <mdke> is that with the div wrapped around it, or without
[21:19] <newz2000> you don't need a div if you don't want one
[21:19] <newz2000> so here's code you can use...
[21:19] <mdke> it's working now
[21:20] <newz2000> ah, cool
[21:20] <mdke> wowsers
[21:20] <mdke> one issue
[21:21] <mdke> you know the moin editbar has a "More Actions" dropdown (or dropup, in this case)? I lose that if I try to click on an item outside the editbar because it goes back to display: none
[21:21] <newz2000> ah, crud
[21:21] <newz2000> those select lists are nothing but trouble
[21:22] <newz2000> I would say we're either a) back to the drawing board, or b) going to require javascript
[21:23] <newz2000> hmm.
[21:23] <mdke> how acceptable is javascript?
[21:23] <newz2000> I'm fine with it
[21:23] <newz2000> You could do this:
[21:23] <mdke> and it would make the thing look prettier too?
[21:24] <newz2000> well, I'm not good at the prettier part, but we could get it working and ask the webteam for help with that
[21:24] <newz2000> I like javascript that degrades nicely so we could do this:
[21:25] <newz2000> set the edit bar to be position: absolute in css
[21:25] <newz2000> that will make it show at the bottom of the page all the time
[21:25] <newz2000> Then this "show editbar" link you have (currently position: fixed) could use javascript to change the editbar to position:fixed making it come up to the bottom of the screen.
[21:26] <newz2000> clicking it again would send it to the bottom of the page again
[21:26] <newz2000> the benefit of this is that if js is disabled the editbar is there, just at the bottom
[21:26] <mdke> so it wouldn't depend on hover at all?
[21:26] <newz2000> right
[21:26] <mdke> that sounds perfect
[21:26] <newz2000> and the code is easy!
[21:27] <newz2000> I'll pastebin working example code, just a sec...
[21:28] <mdke> I might commit where I have got to, for safe keeping
[21:28] <newz2000> good idea
[21:34] <newz2000> mdke: http://pastebin.com/m638d086f
[21:34] <newz2000> a few things
[21:34] <newz2000> copy and paste from the text area at the bottom of the page to avoid the line numbers
[21:34] <newz2000> the style="" in the second ul is important
[21:35] <newz2000> I've not tested the innerHTML parts - that should just change the word from Show editbar to Hide editbar and back again
[21:35] <newz2000> </end few things>
[21:35] <mdke> what is the elipsis in line 5?
[21:35] <newz2000> replace that with the editbar content
[21:36] <newz2000> oh
[21:36] <newz2000> those are for the rest of the html
[21:36] <mdke> isn't that line 7?
[21:36] <newz2000> because editbar is position: absolute it may go wherever you like. it can go right after line 3 or at the end of the template.
[21:37] <mdke> I'll post you the html I have now for the editbar function in the theme
[21:37] <mdke>         html = u'<ul id="showbar"><li>Show Editbar<ul id="editbar">\n%s\n</ul></li></ul>\n' % items
[21:38] <mdke> can I get them both into that line?
[21:38] <newz2000> yes
[21:38] <newz2000> I added a span around the word show so that it can be changed with the word hide when appropriate
[21:39] <mdke> ok, I'll give it a try
[21:39] <mdke> id="showbar" doesn't appear anywhere, is that normal?
[21:40] <newz2000> yeah, not needed now
[21:40] <mdke> ok
[21:40] <mdke> now it looks like this, I'll try it
[21:40] <mdke>         html = u'<<ul><li><a href="showbar" onclick="return togglebar()"><a href="#editbar"><span id="showbarspan">Show</span> editting options</a></li></ul><ul id="editbar" style="">\n%s\n</ul>\n' % items
[21:40] <newz2000> extra < at the beginning
[21:41] <mdke> ah, thanks
[21:41] <newz2000> actually more extras stuff...
[21:41] <mdke> I'll put the javascript in the footer or something
[21:42] <newz2000> html = u'<ul><li><a href="#editbar" onclick="return togglebar()"><span id="showbarspan">Show</span> editting options</a></li></ul><ul id="editbar" style="">\n%s\n</ul>\n' % items
[21:42] <newz2000> I think that's right
[21:43] <mdke> how does it pick up the #showbar css?
[21:43] <newz2000> you may need to add id="showbar" in there if you want to style it. :-)
[21:43]  * newz2000 new it was there for something
[21:44] <mdke> well, i at least need the position: fixed thing which is in your pastebin
[21:44] <newz2000> that's correct, in that case it should be on the ul
[21:45] <newz2000> the first ul
[21:45] <mdke> gotcha
[21:49] <mdke> hmm. Doesn't seem to work as expected
[21:50] <mdke> clicking "Show editing" works fine, but when you click "Hide editing", the bar is in the middle of the page
[21:50] <mdke> or rather, at the bottom of the page if scrolled up to the top, but in the middle when you scroll down
[21:50] <newz2000> does it change its position when you click hide?
[21:50] <newz2000> or does nothing happen
[21:51] <mdke> clicking hide produces the problem
[21:51] <newz2000> after         obj.style.position = 'absolute'; add
[21:51] <newz2000>         obj.style.bottom = '0';
[21:51] <newz2000> in the javascript
[21:51]  * newz2000 is guessing
[21:52] <mdke> same issue
[21:52] <mdke> do you have a desktop wiki?
[21:53] <newz2000> not at hand, but I can probably set one up pronto if you share your code
[21:53] <mdke> I'll commit again
[21:54] <mdke> with moin 1.6.4, you just grab the regular tarball and run ./moin.py
[21:54] <newz2000> my testing vm works I think
[21:54] <mdke> alright, whatever works for you :)
[21:55] <newz2000> where's your code?
[21:55] <mdke> https://code.launchpad.net/~mdke/ubuntu-doc/helpwiki-newtheme
[22:00] <newz2000> ok, I think I see what you mean
[22:00] <newz2000> so before you do anything it's in the middle of nowhere
[22:00] <newz2000> then you click show and it snaps into place
[22:01] <mdke> right
[22:01] <newz2000> then you click hide and it goes back to the middle again
[22:01] <newz2000> interesting
[22:06] <Erik_J> Have a nice day
[22:06] <newz2000> mdke: I will dig into this further and send you a patch
[22:06] <mdke> newz2000: *hugs*
[22:07] <mdke> thanks a lot dude
[22:07] <newz2000> no prob