| === mrevell is now known as mrevell-lunch | ||
| === salgado-afk is now known as salgado | ||
| === mrevell-lunch is now known as mrevell | ||
| gmb | Wheeeeee.... | 14:59 |
|---|---|---|
| * bigjools stretches and yawns | 14:59 | |
| * intellectronica sneezes | 15:00 | |
| barry | #startmeeting | 15:00 |
| MootBot | Meeting started at 09:00. The chair is barry. | 15:00 |
| MootBot | Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] | 15:00 |
| barry | hello everyone and welcome to this week's ameu reviewers meeting | 15:00 |
| barry | who's here today? | 15:00 |
| sinzui | me | 15:00 |
| intellectronica | me | 15:00 |
| gary_poster | me | 15:00 |
| bigjools | me | 15:00 |
| salgado | me | 15:00 |
| mars | me | 15:00 |
| gmb | me | 15:01 |
| * barry knows that bac sends his apologies | 15:01 | |
| abentley | me | 15:01 |
| BjornT | me | 15:01 |
| barry | gary_poster: welcome! we're going to make you a reviewer one of these days :) | 15:01 |
| gary_poster | barry: heh, hi :-) | 15:02 |
| flacoste | me | 15:02 |
| EdwinGrubbs | me | 15:02 |
| barry | cprov: ping | 15:02 |
| cprov | cprov | 15:02 |
| barry | danilo[home]__: ping | 15:02 |
| cprov | err, *me* | 15:02 |
| barry | rockstar: ping | 15:03 |
| barry | [TOPIC] agenda | 15:03 |
| MootBot | New Topic: agenda | 15:03 |
| barry | * Roll call | 15:03 |
| barry | * mentor needed for mars -- barry | 15:03 |
| barry | * Using ReST instead Moin for documentation -- flacoste [<<Date(2008-09-22T10:17:00-0500)>>] | 15:03 |
| barry | * Require testing of JavaScript (indeed, all UI) changes on multiple platforms (gmb). | 15:03 |
| barry | * 78 column limit okay in doctest narrative? -- barry | 15:03 |
| barry | * If there's time, the old boring script | 15:03 |
| barry | * Next meeting | 15:03 |
| barry | * Action items | 15:03 |
| barry | * Queue status | 15:03 |
| barry | * Mentoring update | 15:03 |
| barry | [TOPIC] mentor needed for mars -- barry | 15:03 |
| MootBot | New Topic: mentor needed for mars -- barry | 15:03 |
| gmb | barry: I'll do that. | 15:04 |
| barry | gmb: fantastic, thanks | 15:04 |
| barry | mars: please coordinate with gmb and join him on his on call day | 15:04 |
| flacoste | gmb: when is your on-call day? | 15:04 |
| mars | gmb, thanks, I look forward to working with you | 15:04 |
| gmb | mars: Likewise. | 15:04 |
| gmb | I'm on call on Thursday, but I can change that if necessary. | 15:04 |
| gmb | Actually | 15:04 |
| gmb | We have a glut of reviewers on Thursday | 15:05 |
| gmb | Me, salgado, EdwinGrubbs... | 15:05 |
| gmb | So maybe we should pick a different day. | 15:05 |
| salgado | gmb, I've moved to Friday | 15:05 |
| gmb | Ah. | 15:05 |
| gmb | That shows how much attention I was paying | 15:05 |
| bigjools | salgado is the new sinzui | 15:05 |
| flacoste | mars: you might want to skip or only do a light day this week | 15:05 |
| mars | gmb, ok, I'll look at the schedule | 15:05 |
| barry | bigjools: :) | 15:05 |
| intellectronica | gmb: i think bac mentioned that he wanted to take a break. maybe you can reaplce him when that happens? | 15:06 |
| barry | bac_afk: is mentoring rockstar | 15:06 |
| sinzui | bigjools: less stupid question of Fridays now | 15:06 |
| * gmb looks at OCR... | 15:06 | |
| gmb | So, maybe Wednesday | 15:06 |
| barry | monday euro is also open | 15:07 |
| gmb | Especially with allenap being fatherly at the moment and all. | 15:07 |
| gmb | Hmm... | 15:07 |
| gmb | barry: Whatever your preference then. Monday works for me. | 15:07 |
| barry | it would mean EdwinGrubbs would be the only eu/am reviewer on thursdays | 15:08 |
| barry | mondays are fairly light usually, so gmb, mars let's keep you on euro thursdays for now | 15:08 |
| gmb | So really, it makes no difference which day we're on. | 15:08 |
| gmb | barry: Right, works for me. | 15:08 |
| mars | ok | 15:08 |
| barry | thanks! i'll update the relevant pages | 15:09 |
| gmb | Ok. | 15:09 |
| barry | [TOPIC] * Using ReST instead Moin for documentation -- flacoste [<<Date(2008-09-22T10:17:00-0500)>>] | 15:09 |
| MootBot | New Topic: * Using ReST instead Moin for documentation -- flacoste [<<Date(2008-09-22T10:17:00-0500)>>] | 15:09 |
| barry | flacoste: the floor is yours | 15:09 |
| flacoste | ok, so I'd like to suggest we move back to using ReST as our standard doc format | 15:09 |
| flacoste | especially in regards to doctests | 15:10 |
| flacoste | the only thing we are using from Moin is the header style | 15:10 |
| flacoste | and it doesn't give us anything | 15:10 |
| flacoste | we can't process those files | 15:10 |
| flacoste | moving to ReST will allow us to use the numerous tools that can process those | 15:10 |
| sinzui | +1 | 15:10 |
| flacoste | we talked about separating documentation across the tree and linking it into a doc directory | 15:10 |
| barry | +1 | 15:11 |
| gmb | +1 | 15:11 |
| flacoste | we could process those using Sphinx which is becoming a standard in the python world | 15:11 |
| mars | +1, I want my syntax highlighting back :) | 15:11 |
| abentley | +1. | 15:11 |
| flacoste | any objections? | 15:11 |
| BjornT | will we switch to ReST in the wiki as well? | 15:11 |
| flacoste | should we? | 15:11 |
| barry | can we? | 15:11 |
| intellectronica | there's an advantage to using the same format for the many different text collections we've got | 15:11 |
| flacoste | and does Moin supports it? | 15:11 |
| BjornT | well, i'd hate having to know to different formats for docs | 15:12 |
| abentley | flacoste: Moin supports it. | 15:12 |
| barry | +1 then | 15:12 |
| intellectronica | further more, it might make sense to coordinate this with other canonical projects, like landscape and bazaar | 15:12 |
| abentley | flacoste: Perhaps not as well as Moin markup, but... | 15:12 |
| BjornT | what kind of processing do we want, btw? i think that's important to think about, before we decide to switch | 15:12 |
| BjornT | switching is expensive | 15:12 |
| flacoste | hmm, it's not | 15:12 |
| flacoste | JFDI | 15:12 |
| flacoste | we don't need to convert anything | 15:12 |
| sinzui | I think formatdoctest.py can switch the headers after a small change to the header rule. | 15:12 |
| flacoste | we didn't when we settled on Moin heading style | 15:13 |
| flacoste | and we don't really use Moin | 15:13 |
| flacoste | only it's heading style | 15:13 |
| abentley | intellectronica: Bazaar uses ReST everywhere except in the Wiki. (Where it *sometimes* uses ReST.) | 15:13 |
| barry | rs=barry for any formatdoctest.py generated pure cleanup branches | 15:13 |
| sinzui | We can switch during the Epic | 15:14 |
| intellectronica | abentley: thanks. i guess that supports the idea of moving to rst | 15:14 |
| flacoste | we have some packages that we intend to distribute on the cheeseshop | 15:14 |
| flacoste | waddlib, launchpadlib | 15:14 |
| flacoste | having the doc in ReST will allow the documentation to integrate nicely with the Cheeseshop | 15:14 |
| flacoste | gary_poster: am I making this up, or did I understand that correclty? | 15:15 |
| barry | flacoste: can you update https://launchpad.canonical.com/TestsStyleGuide and email the ml? | 15:15 |
| flacoste | barry: i will | 15:15 |
| gary_poster | flacoste: :-) yes, the main page for a project is in ReST | 15:15 |
| mars | flacoste, PyPi likes ReST | 15:15 |
| * abentley wonders if it would be a good idea to make ReST the default on the new launchpad wiki. | 15:15 | |
| barry | [ACTION] flacoste will update https://launchpad.canonical.com/TestsStyleGuide and email the ml, re: use reST in doctests | 15:15 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: flacoste will update https://launchpad.canonical.com/TestsStyleGuide and email the ml, re: use reST in doctests | 15:15 |
| flacoste | barry: am I doing a wiki policy also | 15:15 |
| flacoste | i think we can postpone that one | 15:16 |
| flacoste | just doctests | 15:16 |
| barry | flacoste: great, thanks | 15:16 |
| flacoste | another issue is docstrings, | 15:16 |
| flacoste | we currently use epydoc markup on those | 15:16 |
| mars | flacoste, isn't epydoc based on ReST? | 15:16 |
| flacoste | i think it is, but it uses different fields syntax | 15:17 |
| BjornT | flacoste: are you going to mail the list for discussing this, or to inform about a decision? | 15:17 |
| mars | that's optional, IIRC. @foo: is the same as :foo: | 15:17 |
| barry | mars: correct | 15:17 |
| abentley | err, I've been using ReST in my docstrings. | 15:17 |
| flacoste | for doctest, it seems that we nearly have consensus | 15:17 |
| flacoste | BjornT: ^^^ | 15:17 |
| barry | btw, asiapac is cool with this | 15:17 |
| flacoste | BjornT: i would ask for discussion regarding the wiki | 15:18 |
| abentley | ":param foo: frob the thurbleforp", etc. | 15:18 |
| flacoste | barry: did I understand correctly that action? | 15:18 |
| BjornT | flacoste: well, i still would like to see a list of use cases. many voted +1 just because we could use tools to process the files. i would like to know a bit more what we want to gain from switching. | 15:18 |
| barry | flacoste: i'm not sure, what do you think the action says? :) | 15:18 |
| flacoste | BjornT: build an HTML documentation | 15:19 |
| BjornT | i don't think this is something that should be decided in a meeting, without having a proper discussion | 15:19 |
| flacoste | also | 15:19 |
| flacoste | remember that our Moin use doesn't give us anything | 15:19 |
| BjornT | flacoste: and you're confident that's impossible using moin? | 15:19 |
| flacoste | yes, because we aren't using proper moin | 15:19 |
| flacoste | processing the python example looks like crap | 15:19 |
| flacoste | gary tried it | 15:20 |
| BjornT | flacoste: what would it look like? can we maybe make a small change to make it interpret >>> specially? | 15:20 |
| flacoste | i don't want to hack moin | 15:20 |
| flacoste | the main argument is that there are standard tools in the python world | 15:20 |
| flacoste | to do this | 15:20 |
| flacoste | and now we aren't compatible with anything | 15:21 |
| BjornT | i'd still like to see some examples of what we want to do (like links to existing documentation, and so on) | 15:21 |
| flacoste | neither Moin, nor ReST | 15:21 |
| gary_poster | BjornT: OK one sec | 15:21 |
| gary_poster | simple ReST page on PyPI | 15:22 |
| gary_poster | http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zc.async | 15:22 |
| MootBot | LINK received: http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zc.async | 15:22 |
| rockstar | me | 15:22 |
| gary_poster | ReST docs to html generated by Sphinx | 15:22 |
| gary_poster | http://packages.python.org/zc.async/1.5.0/ | 15:22 |
| MootBot | LINK received: http://packages.python.org/zc.async/1.5.0/ | 15:22 |
| BjornT | and i'd like to postpone the decision, since i think a bit more than a few minutes is needed to evaluate this | 15:22 |
| barry | BjornT: okay. flacoste please just email the list, we'll postpone final decision until after that discussion happens | 15:23 |
| sinzui | Well we are using mwhudson's generated documentation right now | 15:23 |
| gary_poster | BjornT: one more, trying to be helpful: http://sphinx.pocoo.org/ | 15:23 |
| BjornT | gary_poster: could you also convert one of our doctests, and generate something for it? | 15:23 |
| flacoste | sinzui: that's generated using docstrings, we are talking about processing the doctest files here | 15:23 |
| sinzui | sorry | 15:23 |
| flacoste | gary_poster: converting launchpadlib would be good | 15:24 |
| gary_poster | BjornT: um, let me talk that over with flacoste and you out-of-meeting so I know what you mean. oh, ok. | 15:24 |
| flacoste | barry: ok, we will cook an example and discuss it with the list | 15:24 |
| barry | flacoste: thanks! anything else on this topic? | 15:25 |
| barry | [TOPIC] * Require testing of JavaScript (indeed, all UI) changes on multiple platforms (gmb). | 15:25 |
| MootBot | New Topic: * Require testing of JavaScript (indeed, all UI) changes on multiple platforms (gmb). | 15:25 |
| barry | gmb: the floor is yours | 15:26 |
| gmb | So. | 15:26 |
| gmb | Bug 273401 is a wonderful thing | 15:26 |
| ubottu | Launchpad bug 273401 in malone "Regression: Can't add bug comment using IE6" [Critical,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/273401 | 15:26 |
| gmb | And was caused by an errant comma in some Javascript. | 15:26 |
| gmb | However, it didn't occur on Firefox | 15:26 |
| sinzui | I think jslint may have caught that problem | 15:26 |
| gmb | Because Firefox's JS engine is quite permissive. | 15:26 |
| mars | gmb, we discussed that today. Foundations has a solution - JavaScript lint should catch it. | 15:27 |
| gmb | mars: Brilliant. | 15:27 |
| mars | and we will be adding Lint this cycle | 15:27 |
| gmb | Even so, I wonder if we shouldn't make a point of testing JS changes more thoroughly in > 1 browser. | 15:27 |
| mars | err, we will be add DE-lint tools this cycle :) | 15:27 |
| flacoste | mars: well, as a stretch goal | 15:27 |
| gmb | (And by that I mean significantly different browsers, so Geko, something WebKitty, IE, etc) | 15:27 |
| abentley | That said, I think it would be a really good idea to have unittests of our JS functionality. | 15:27 |
| intellectronica | lint would be awesome. still, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't require testing on important platforms | 15:27 |
| gmb | abentley: Well that would be the ideal, yes. | 15:28 |
| flacoste | abentley: we are also working on that this cycle | 15:28 |
| gmb | Btw, according to jslint, launchpad.js is very, er, linty. | 15:28 |
| flacoste | lint integration is part of that objective | 15:28 |
| intellectronica | gmb, abentley: is this something we could have unit tested? | 15:28 |
| sinzui | gmb: it is not lying | 15:28 |
| intellectronica | i think that for JS pagetesting is much more important than unit testing | 15:28 |
| gmb | intellectronica: Well, it's something that would have made any unit test break, assuming that the testing engine was strict about syntax. | 15:29 |
| flacoste | intellectronica: most unit testing allows you to do "pagetesting" | 15:29 |
| intellectronica | well, if it's a syntax thing then lint should be enough | 15:29 |
| flacoste | simulate DOM events | 15:29 |
| abentley | intellectronica: Yes, I believe so. | 15:29 |
| intellectronica | flacoste: is it so? i thought meaningful pagetesting for dynamic html / js / ajax really requires actually having a browser working | 15:30 |
| intellectronica | (so something like selenium) | 15:30 |
| abentley | intellectronica: Yes, something like selenium is what I meant. | 15:30 |
| flacoste | intellectronica: it only needs a JS interpreter supporting DOME | 15:30 |
| flacoste | which you get in a browser | 15:30 |
| rockstar | flacoste, intellectronica, yui has a pretty good testing framework. | 15:31 |
| flacoste | but there are various ways to do it | 15:31 |
| mars | rockstar, yes, and we will also be looking at Doh | 15:31 |
| intellectronica | rockstar: yeah, that would definitely be a good start | 15:31 |
| flacoste | depending on the unit testing framework we use | 15:31 |
| mars | there are a number of things to consider, like CLI usage, and PQM integration | 15:31 |
| mars | that's all part of the Foundations js testing story for this cycle | 15:31 |
| flacoste | anyway, we don't need to discuss that here | 15:32 |
| barry | cool, thanks. so we'll wait for foundations work this cycle? | 15:33 |
| intellectronica | so, what i think we do need to discuss is how we can make reviews catch more problems with JS and DHTML | 15:33 |
| intellectronica | i think gmb's idea of requiring testing on many platforms is good | 15:34 |
| flacoste | JS training for reviewers... oh wait... | 15:34 |
| barry | intellectronica: yes, guidelines for reviewing js would be most appreciated | 15:34 |
| barry | intellectronica: it would help if we had access to a few vm's with such browsers on them | 15:34 |
| barry | intellectronica: but also, there's a page with the os's that people have | 15:35 |
| intellectronica | barry: well, i haven't looked at this particular problem, but if it's a syntax error than obviously we can't make a guidance to check every syntactical construct separatetly... | 15:35 |
| mars | intellectronica, to be honest, I think the lint tools will do most of the heavy lifting for now. Reviewers will need more in-depth JS knowledge to spot things like scoping issues. | 15:35 |
| mars | intellectronica, however, reviewing JavaScript best practices would help | 15:36 |
| intellectronica | mars: yes, i agree. i think that we should encourage reviewers to involve someone who feels more comfortable with js if they are concerned that they may have not covered everything | 15:36 |
| salgado | barry, matsubara can do that for us using browsershots | 15:36 |
| mars | this issue wouldn't have happened if the link had been coded soundly to start with | 15:36 |
| barry | mars: most bugs are like that <wink> | 15:37 |
| intellectronica | slowly we'll build JS proficiency anyway, especially after the epic | 15:37 |
| barry | salgado: should that be a requirement for ui involving js? | 15:37 |
| salgado | maybe for all UI changes? | 15:38 |
| intellectronica | salgado: ideally, but that could slow us down considerably, which would be a shame | 15:38 |
| intellectronica | lot's of branches touch on some UI | 15:38 |
| barry | maybe. if so, it has to be done by the dev as part of their branch submission | 15:38 |
| barry | intellectronica: right | 15:39 |
| salgado | or as part of QA on edge? | 15:39 |
| salgado | s/edge/staging | 15:39 |
| barry | salgado: hmm, interesting | 15:39 |
| * barry feels like the discussion has run out of steam | 15:40 | |
| barry | seems like we have no actions out of this, except wait for foundations and epic | 15:40 |
| barry | so... | 15:41 |
| mars | barry, I can add some links to the JavaScript review page | 15:41 |
| barry | mars: thanks,that would be helpful | 15:41 |
| mars | (we do have a JS review page, right?) | 15:41 |
| barry | well, we have a JS style guide page | 15:41 |
| intellectronica | mars: we have a style guide. i think that's about it | 15:41 |
| mars | ok, that works | 15:41 |
| mars | no '#' links! | 15:42 |
| barry | [ACTION] mars to add some links to the js style guide page to help reviewers | 15:42 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: mars to add some links to the js style guide page to help reviewers | 15:42 |
| barry | 3 minutes left... one more (hopefully) quick topic | 15:42 |
| barry | [TOPIC] * 78 column limit okay in doctest narrative? -- barry | 15:42 |
| MootBot | New Topic: * 78 column limit okay in doctest narrative? -- barry | 15:42 |
| sinzui | What was the 78 column ruling? | 15:42 |
| barry | this was actually brought up by jml in asiapac | 15:42 |
| barry | but i also would like to relax the 72 column limit and just allow 78 columns everywhere in a doctest | 15:43 |
| barry | what say ye? | 15:43 |
| bigjools | +1 | 15:43 |
| sinzui | +1 | 15:43 |
| flacoste | -1 | 15:43 |
| abentley | +1 | 15:43 |
| flacoste | mainly for esthetic reason | 15:43 |
| rockstar | +1 | 15:43 |
| flacoste | and quoting is easier | 15:43 |
| abentley | I say 79, dammit! | 15:43 |
| flacoste | nah! | 15:43 |
| bigjools | it's a PITA to | 15:44 |
| bigjools | oo0ps | 15:44 |
| flacoste | 79 is very bad | 15:44 |
| barry | abentley: well i like 79 too :) | 15:44 |
| flacoste | because it wraps very badly when reviewing | 15:44 |
| bigjools | it's a PITA to wrap differently for text vs code | 15:44 |
| intellectronica | i don't care that much, but, what's the motivation for this? | 15:44 |
| barry | flacoste: jml's point, which i agree with, is that it's just more work to deal with and think about and doesn't really buy us that much | 15:44 |
| salgado | why did we change to 72 in the first place? I can't remember | 15:44 |
| BjornT | -1. it's easier to read 72 characters | 15:45 |
| flacoste | because we use that for code comments | 15:45 |
| flacoste | and makes wrapping easier | 15:45 |
| sinzui | intellectronica: The original argument for 72 is that it is easier to read. Bogus! English is 45-60 character line length | 15:45 |
| barry | flacoste: how does it make wrapping easier? | 15:45 |
| flacoste | hmm, quoting! | 15:45 |
| sinzui | intellectronica: so 78 is not really work than 72. | 15:45 |
| salgado | flacoste, we don't use that for code comments. at least not as a policy | 15:45 |
| bigjools | very subjective arguments so far | 15:45 |
| abentley | flacoste: A width of < 80 is already pretty constraining. | 15:45 |
| intellectronica | sinzui: i mean the argument for extending to 78 | 15:45 |
| flacoste | bigjools: the PITA is also subjective :-) | 15:46 |
| sinzui | intellectronica: I think no one likes my reviews | 15:46 |
| * bigjools is amazed at how heated opinions can get for trivial things | 15:46 | |
| barry | btw, the point is to have one and only one column width for our files | 15:46 |
| intellectronica | +-0 who cares | 15:46 |
| flacoste | bigjools: bikeshedding :-) | 15:46 |
| bigjools | flacoste: that's not subjective, it IS a PITA for me :) | 15:46 |
| flacoste | lol | 15:46 |
| sinzui | bigjools: I agree. That I why a wrote a tool to do all trivial formatting of doctests | 15:47 |
| flacoste | we have 4 +1, 2 -1 and 1 +0 | 15:47 |
| sinzui | bigjools: A tool that reports a problem about a trivial aspect of code is pointless unless it also offers to fix it | 15:47 |
| bigjools | ideally, bazaar would reformat submissions so I don't have to even think about it | 15:47 |
| barry | and three +1's from asiapac iirc | 15:47 |
| * barry just wants one fill column dammit! | 15:48 | |
| bigjools | time is ovah | 15:49 |
| flacoste | barry: time to use your presidential power here :-) | 15:49 |
| bigjools | chuckle | 15:49 |
| barry | mwah ha ha! | 15:49 |
| sinzui | Anyone who wants to wrap at 72 may, he just does not have the right to complain about narrative that wraps at 78 | 15:49 |
| flacoste | you two objectives from Launchpad veterans, just dimiss the old people and go with the younger generation | 15:49 |
| barry | ok, i think 78 is OK but not required. ifyou want to wrap to 72, np, but 78 for code + docs is fine too | 15:50 |
| flacoste | s/you/& have/ | 15:50 |
| barry | sinzui: exactly | 15:50 |
| barry | :) | 15:50 |
| flacoste | barry: that's too complex a rule | 15:50 |
| flacoste | barry: wrap at 78 | 15:50 |
| flacoste | that's easy | 15:50 |
| sinzui | flacoste: this is the purging of SteveA style I think | 15:50 |
| barry | works for me. wrap at 78 | 15:50 |
| bigjools | what?! SteveA has style? | 15:50 |
| barry | time's up. sorry for going over folks | 15:51 |
| barry | #endmeeting | 15:51 |
| MootBot | Meeting finished at 09:51. | 15:51 |
| barry | thanks everybody, have a great day | 15:51 |
| intellectronica | thanks barry | 15:51 |
| bigjools | thanks! | 15:51 |
| mars | interesting lesson in group dynamics... | 15:51 |
| sinzui | bigjools: wrap narrative at 72 characters, use moin headers instead of RST. | 15:51 |
| barry | lol | 15:51 |
| sinzui | it's true | 15:51 |
| barry | everybody pile on bigjools for breaking the rules | 15:51 |
| * bigjools raises shields | 15:52 | |
| === salgado is now known as salgado-lunch | ||
| === fjlacoste is now known as flacoste | ||
| === salgado-lunch is now known as salgado | ||
| === salgado is now known as salgado-afk | ||
| === thumper_laptop is now known as thumper | ||
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