| === jjesse_ is now known as jjesse | ||
| === jono_ is now known as jono | ||
| andrew_sayers | mdke: Needless to say, I disagree about IE6 with the site I linked to :) | 22:15 |
|---|---|---|
| mdke | ok | 22:15 |
| mdke | I don't think th comparison with firefox is a valid one | 22:15 |
| andrew_sayers | How so? | 22:15 |
| mdke | firefox respects web standards, and ie6 doesn't. More importantly, it has been superceded by ie7 | 22:16 |
| mdke | it's not like it's an up and coming browser with a valid reason for people to keep making efforts to support it | 22:16 |
| mdke | especially if those efforts involve going out of one's way | 22:16 |
| mdke | as long as it works, and the site isn't broken, I'm happy | 22:17 |
| mdke | www.ubuntu.com has a number of substantial issues with IE6, and the approach was taken that as long as it is readable, it's ok | 22:17 |
| mdke | now you go :) | 22:17 |
| andrew_sayers | I'll stick to one point at a time, so here's my first argument :) | 22:18 |
| andrew_sayers | Doesn't that make us look like zealots? | 22:18 |
| mdke | no, I don't think so | 22:18 |
| andrew_sayers | Either you ditch your solution of choice, or you're a second class citizen? | 22:18 |
| mdke | that's not zealotry. People make choices like that all the time | 22:19 |
| andrew_sayers | Hmm, can you give me an example? | 22:19 |
| mdke | if the interests of 5% of users had to be catered for, no one would ever get any software UI work done | 22:19 |
| andrew_sayers | That's where the FF argument comes in though. | 22:20 |
| mdke | not really. To support firefox, all web designers had to do was to support web standards | 22:21 |
| andrew_sayers | Or if you prefer, colour blind people, properly blind people, people with JS disabled, people that use Dvorak keyboards... | 22:21 |
| mdke | right, people with JS disabled is another good example | 22:21 |
| mdke | obviously things should work without JS enabled, but that doesn't mean that it should never be used to improve a site for those who enable it | 22:22 |
| mdke | actually, for the theme, we're trying to use a JS solution for the editbar | 22:22 |
| mdke | to work around that issue you encountered with the firefox "find" utility | 22:22 |
| andrew_sayers | Yeah, I noticed something about that. | 22:22 |
| andrew_sayers | I have no problem with adding extra functionality where possible, my problem is with breaking basic stuff that doesn't have to be broken. | 22:23 |
| andrew_sayers | E.g. add colour to a website, but don't communicate information purely with colour, because of colour blindness. | 22:24 |
| mdke | yes, I understand that | 22:24 |
| mdke | what's the solution you had in mind for IE6? | 22:25 |
| andrew_sayers | For which issue? | 22:26 |
| mdke | the image transparency | 22:26 |
| andrew_sayers | Use the icons I provided. | 22:26 |
| andrew_sayers | Or alternatively, I'll do the same to the other icons. | 22:26 |
| mdke | and what is it that you did? | 22:26 |
| andrew_sayers | Converted the transparent background to the relevant colour. | 22:26 |
| andrew_sayers | (Yellow for hint, red for warning, etc.) | 22:27 |
| mdke | ok | 22:27 |
| mdke | that kinda makes it more difficult to change the colours in the future, I guess? | 22:27 |
| andrew_sayers | Yeah, although you seem to be saying you like it that way? | 22:28 |
| andrew_sayers | We can always keep the originals around. | 22:28 |
| mdke | no, that's not what I'm saying | 22:28 |
| andrew_sayers | (That we should hard-code the background colours, rather than putting it in the theme) | 22:28 |
| mdke | but it's not more difficult to edit the colours in the macro.py than it is to edit them in the theme.css | 22:29 |
| mdke | it's the same number of type strokes | 22:29 |
| mdke | but redoing the images is a bigger thing | 22:29 |
| mdke | which wouldn't be necessary with transparent images | 22:30 |
| mdke | also, using transparent images means we can use interchangeable icons with the system docs, which would be nice and simple | 22:30 |
| mdke | i guess one weighs these things up when considering whether to make the effort for IE6 | 22:30 |
| andrew_sayers | Yeah - that was another point. On a philosophical level, I feel the relationship between developer and user should be pretty unequal. | 22:31 |
| andrew_sayers | On a practical level, most remaining IE6 users aren't that way by choice. | 22:31 |
| andrew_sayers | Hmm... we can always give IE users different icons. | 22:32 |
| mdke | uhoh | 22:33 |
| andrew_sayers | Which makes the worst case (if we change BG colours) no different to the current case. | 22:33 |
| andrew_sayers | (Although this takes us way into "ugly hack" territory) | 22:34 |
| mdke | let's go with the edited images for everything. I'm sure it's easy enough to add the background and we'll have the transparent icons around for future reference if we change the colours | 22:34 |
| andrew_sayers | Fair enough. | 22:34 |
| andrew_sayers | But the GNOME icons rather than the current ones? | 22:35 |
| mdke | well, I like them more. But I'd like others to agree before signing off, on the basis that we would be changing them in the system docs too | 22:35 |
| mdke | do you like theme? | 22:35 |
| mdke | them* | 22:35 |
| andrew_sayers | I'll look again, gimme a mo... | 22:35 |
| andrew_sayers | I prefer the tip, think the caution is better implemented, but don't really like the note. | 22:36 |
| andrew_sayers | If it's an either/or choice, I'd say go with the GNOME ones. | 22:36 |
| mdke | :) | 22:37 |
| mdke | I don't really like the previous note icon, it's a bit oldfashioned and I don't see the use of having text in it | 22:37 |
| andrew_sayers | I quite like the text, but more importantly, I like that it's a small light rectangle - a big bright square is kinda offputting to me. | 22:38 |
| mdke | hmm | 22:39 |
| mdke | would you want to change the background colours if we switch icons? | 22:39 |
| andrew_sayers | Preferably, yeah. | 22:39 |
| mdke | I thought you would say that | 22:39 |
| mdke | damn perfectionists | 22:40 |
| andrew_sayers | :) | 22:40 |
| mdke | ok. Let's get the macro into review and on the wiki with the existing icons, and think about new icons at a later stage then. the work has all been done on that basis | 22:41 |
| mdke | can you send me the png files with the coloured backgrounds? | 22:41 |
| andrew_sayers | Well, hang on... | 22:41 |
| andrew_sayers | If you want the macro to work with old themes unmodified, we'll need to change the macro. | 22:41 |
| andrew_sayers | Since at present you'll just see an unstyled table. | 22:41 |
| mdke | you mean because the css isn't in the theme? | 22:42 |
| andrew_sayers | It's not in the old themes, yeah. | 22:43 |
| mdke | that's ok, I think. The ReleaseVersion macro requires css to be added to the theme too | 22:43 |
| andrew_sayers | Hmm. | 22:44 |
| andrew_sayers | I would think that either the CSS and image should be theme-specific, or neither should be. | 22:44 |
| mdke | most macros like that require css to be added to the theme, I think | 22:44 |
| andrew_sayers | Having them disagree sounds like a maintenance problem to me. | 22:45 |
| mdke | andrew_sayers: maybe you're right | 22:45 |
| mdke | ok, let's face it that I need to merge your other revisions too :) | 22:46 |
| andrew_sayers | Each of these opinions is a reaction to an old scar from making the opposite choice long ago :) | 22:47 |
| mdke | ok. I'll do the merge | 22:47 |
| andrew_sayers | Thanks. | 22:48 |
| andrew_sayers | Would you rather wait for me to put some more icons in? | 22:48 |
| mdke | I think these will work fine | 22:49 |
| andrew_sayers | Fair enough, although the icons are now done - I'll e-mail them? | 22:51 |
| mdke | ok, thanks. Maybe off-list | 22:52 |
| andrew_sayers | Yeah, good idea. | 22:52 |
| mdke | gtg to bed now | 22:52 |
| mdke | thanks for the chat | 22:52 |
| andrew_sayers | Night night. | 22:52 |
| andrew_sayers | Thanks for scratching the itch :) | 22:52 |
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