[07:41] <zllang> .0.0.0
[07:56] <leoquant> ?
[08:05] <zllang> So peaceful
[12:55]  * ogra gets fresh coffee for the meeting
[12:56] <davidm> Yep, I need more coffee too.
[12:56] <davidm> :-)
[13:00] <davidm> #startmeeting
[13:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is davidm.
[13:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[13:01] <davidm> Who is here this morning?
[13:01] <StevenK> Not me
[13:02] <davidm> lool, ogra persia ?
[13:02] <persia>  /me is rebooting devices
[13:02]  * ogra waves 
[13:03]  * lool waves
[13:04]  * ogra wonders whats up with the calendar 
[13:04] <davidm> OK I don't have the list handy from last week, were there any carry overs from then?
[13:04] <davidm> StevenK, persia ^^
[13:05]  * persia pulls up the log
[13:05] <StevenK> persia: Thank you
[13:05]  * StevenK is currently trying to do four things at once.
[13:05] <davidm> StevenK, please double that, you are not working fast enough ;-)
[13:06] <StevenK> Grr
[13:06] <persia> I had an action to draft a spec
[13:06] <ogra> two hands and two feet :) ... there is still the nosetip to do more typing on another kbd
[13:06]  * StevenK kicks ogra 
[13:06] <persia> StevenK had an action to get kourou into the archives
[13:06] <StevenK> You're not my manager, so I can kick you
[13:06] <StevenK> kourou is in the archive
[13:06] <StevenK> It's the default launcher
[13:07] <StevenK> 0.2 even works
[13:07] <ogra> yay
[13:07] <persia> cgregan had an action to compare & contract F-Spot and GThumb
[13:07] <StevenK> 0.3 is being prepared
[13:07] <persia> That's it.
[13:07] <davidm> OK then from the top persia how goes the spec?
[13:07] <persia> My spec is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Specs/MIDLiveInstaller
[13:07] <persia> Needs revew & test cases.
[13:08] <davidm> OK
[13:08] <persia> Probably Alice needs help with grammar too.
[13:08] <ogra> persia, thats what UDS is for
[13:08] <persia> ogra: This is targeted for intrepid.
[13:08] <ogra> before UDS it should really be drafts only
[13:08] <ogra> oh
[13:08]  * persia is just *really* late on actually writing it up
[13:08] <ogra> ok
[13:08]  * ogra shuts up
[13:09] <davidm> OK, persia do you need help with test cases?
[13:09] <davidm> I'll have a look today.
[13:09] <lool> davidm: Well cgregan was supposed to work on test cases
[13:09] <persia> davidm: I'm expecting cgregan to complete that section.
[13:09] <lool> blueprint looks good
[13:09] <davidm> cgregan has officially moved teams again
[13:09] <ogra> lexington ?
[13:09] <lool> Yup
[13:10] <davidm> and I'm not expecting him today as he is at the new office sorting things in Asia
[13:10] <ogra> so we need a new QA person i guess
[13:10] <davidm> Yes the OEM team
[13:11] <davidm> I'm sure we can ask him for help until we fill the open position.
[13:11] <davidm> I am working that with HR
[13:11] <persia> Maybe we can look to the #ubuntu-testing folk for aid?
[13:11] <davidm> OK so I'll carry over cgregan's task to next week.
[13:12] <davidm> persia, Sure can ask.
[13:12] <StevenK> No fair. How did the OEM poach him
[13:12] <davidm> StevenK, he was moving to Lex and they were hurting for folks in Lex
[13:13] <davidm> Anyway moving on
[13:13] <ogra> thats why he is in asia now :P
[13:13] <davidm> Yep, helping with their new offices there.
[13:14] <davidm> Anyway, moving on,
[13:14]  * ogra was just trying to be ironic
[13:14] <davidm> :-)
[13:14] <davidm> [topic] status
[13:14] <MootBot> New Topic:  status
[13:15] <davidm> amitk is not here so StevenK status?
[13:16] <StevenK> I've been working on kourou, trying to get it nailed down
[13:16] <StevenK> davidm: I think you may have missed the fun. persia, lool and I got sick of mobile-basic-flash, so I reimplemented it.
[13:16] <davidm> I did miss that
[13:16] <StevenK> davidm: mobile-basic-flash is 1,800 lines of C, and kourou, the new launcher is 70 lines of Python
[13:16] <persia> The new version surpasses the old in both features and standards compliance.
[13:17] <persia> (plus it actually works)
[13:17] <davidm> How is the load speed?
[13:17] <persia> Faster than m-b-f
[13:18] <davidm> Impressive
[13:18] <StevenK> Since m-b-f pulls in xul and plonks it into RAM
[13:18] <StevenK> I will be uploading Kourou 0.3 tonight or tomorrow morning
[13:18] <persia> And this also means no more xul-1.8 which saves *heaps* of security nightmares.
[13:18] <lool> Yeah, we did lose the ability to theme the home UI by matter of flash or html, but as we didn't use that ability, I really welcome the rewrite, thanks a lot StevenK
[13:18] <ogra> its gtk
[13:18] <StevenK> I also fixed hildon-desktop to not fail to build
[13:19] <ogra> it surely is themeable in a great way
[13:19] <StevenK> Kourou currently isn't
[13:19] <StevenK> Wait, did I say that out loud?
[13:19] <davidm> OK so we can worry about extending it in Intrepid+1 then >:-)
[13:19] <StevenK> Exactly
[13:19] <persia> Indeed.
[13:20] <davidm> OK so we need a spec for that then?
[13:20] <persia> It meets the standard use cases today.
[13:20] <StevenK> It launches stuff, and we can bend it to our will so Intrepid looks good
[13:20] <StevenK> It probably wants a spec for Jaunty
[13:20] <davidm> OK who is is on the hook for the spec?
[13:20] <davidm> StevenK, ^^
[13:20] <persia> For flash, we probably just want to leverage gnash into a new (separate) wrapper, and use that instead of kourou.
[13:20] <StevenK> No flash!
[13:21] <StevenK> Noooo
[13:21] <StevenK> davidm: Later. :-)
[13:21] <lool> persia: Frankly, the flash/home UI stuff is not pretty
[13:21] <davidm> That could work, gnash is fast and light.
[13:21] <persia> StevenK: Not in kourou, but I like the flash home on my smallest device.
[13:21] <lool> It requires some javascript bridge to tell the flash about sound events to play, or battery status information, and that's because we have no proper *bindings*
[13:21] <StevenK> Oh, right.
[13:21] <davidm> And I bet we can get rob to work on it.
[13:21] <StevenK> A choice of launcher
[13:21] <StevenK> I can deal with that
[13:21] <lool> We don't really want to use the model which was used in mbf, and flash doesn't really offer much more -- perhaps if we get GScript?
[13:21] <persia> Right.  Launcher choice.  Not flash-in-kourou.  That would be bad.
[13:21] <StevenK> hildon-desktop currently won't deal, but Jaunty
[13:22] <davidm> StevenK, so I'll give you the action?
[13:22] <ogra> plain xul and javascript ;)
[13:22] <StevenK> davidm: I've added the action to my todo
[13:22] <ogra> (not as close bound to the xul that you need a specific version indeed)
[13:22] <persia> I think three launchers: kourou, xul/javascript, and gnash
[13:22] <lool> ogra: It's not trivial to expose system stuff in javascript just know; we can expose gobjects lib now, but what about hal?  Dunno
[13:23]  * davidm StevenK to write spec(s) to have choice of launchers/extend launcher for theme ability 
[13:23] <davidm> [action] StevenK to write spec(s) to have choice of launchers/extend launcher for theme ability
[13:23] <MootBot> ACTION received:  StevenK to write spec(s) to have choice of launchers/extend launcher for theme ability
[13:23] <StevenK> It's one spec
[13:23] <davidm> OK, left the option for more if needed
[13:23]  * ogra wants launch effects 
[13:23] <davidm> StevenK, that it for your status?
[13:24] <StevenK> I have news, but persia did most of the work, so he can go, and I'll interject
[13:24] <davidm> persia, your status?
[13:24] <persia> Erm.  I didn't do much (and have no idea to what StevenK refers).
[13:25] <persia> I fiddled with the seeds some, so -mobile ought work on lpia (excepting the kernel issues).
[13:25] <StevenK> Oh. It was amitk's work you used?
[13:25] <persia> The lpia alternate CD still doesn't work: it was an X issue today, which I still haven't tracked down.  I think the remainder of the warnings from debian-installer are safe to ignore.
[13:25] <StevenK> Right, then I will interject:
[13:25] <StevenK> Accepting linux-lpia-meta
[13:26] <persia> Oh.  Yeah.  That was all amitk.
[13:26] <ogra> yay
[13:27] <ogra> do we have lrm now ?
[13:27] <persia> And ogra was able to reproduce the failure-to-install grub issue with i386 with -mobile, which has been a rich set of hints towards tracking it down.
[13:27] <StevenK> I doubt it
[13:27] <ogra> so i could try a -mobile lpia build
[13:27] <persia> No lrm yet.  That's planned for "soon".
[13:27] <davidm> So the kernel meta package is complete?
[13:27] <ogra> good
[13:27] <ogra> at least its planned
[13:28] <StevenK> davidm: No.
[13:28] <persia> davidm: Yes.  linux-lpia-meta is complete.  linux-lpia needs another push because of some specialness in kernel packaging, but that's looking good.  We also need lrm (especially for lpiacompat), but that's also in the pipeline.
[13:28] <persia> StevenK: It's not complete?
[13:28] <lool> Is lrm really planned?  I thought we'd try harder getting ath5k to work
[13:28] <StevenK> Not quite complete, it needs binary NEW
[13:28] <StevenK> So, "Almost"
[13:28] <ogra> how is aufs looking ?
[13:28] <persia> lool: It's required for lpiacompat, so it's not such an issue to do it for lpia as well.
[13:29]  * persia doesn't know anything about aufs, and wishes for an amitk to report about this.
[13:29] <ogra> persia, well, ath5k would be preferred over madwifi, but i doubt we'll get tat in time
[13:30] <davidm> Can we grab amitk and pull him into this meeting
[13:30] <persia> ogra: Indeed: it all depends on kernel stuff.  Personally, I'd rather working xserver-xorg-video-psb to madwifi
[13:30] <ogra> yeah
[13:30] <davidm> I just pinged him
[13:30] <ogra> psb seems critical, i had a lot of requests since yesterday
[13:31] <persia> I now have a psb device, to help test stuff, but no nothing about that code.
[13:31] <davidm> psb is not going to make the release
[13:31] <persia> s/no/know/
[13:31] <lool> I doubt about psb as well
[13:31] <persia> davidm: Not even 2D?
[13:31] <ogra> well, some kind of 2D support would be nice at least
[13:31] <davidm> Intel is lagging will not come out until December
[13:31] <lool> The kernel bits could make it, but I don't see how we'd deel with libdrm
[13:31] <ogra> or even vesa working with it
[13:31]  * persia doesn't really care about 3D
[13:31] <lool> *deal
[13:31] <lool> Heya amitk
[13:32] <ogra> i just see that even vesa fails, that leaves some psb users with a black screen
[13:32] <persia> Indeed, which is frustrating.
[13:32] <davidm> Hi amitk the team has questions for you.
[13:32] <amitk> sure
[13:32] <ogra> for some vesa seems to do it though
[13:32] <davidm> First was how is aufs looking ?
[13:33] <amitk> I finished reviewing it and will looking to pushing it in today - tomorrow at the latest
[13:33] <ogra> yay
[13:33] <amitk> ogra: not so fast
[13:33] <StevenK> \o/
[13:34] <persia> ?
[13:34] <ogra> amitk, well, progress is progress :)
[13:34] <amitk> I will push it in to the ubuntu-kernel and then rebase the lpia kernel on top of it.
[13:34] <persia> Does that take us to -4?
[13:34] <amitk> persia: yes
[13:34] <davidm> amitk, timeframe?
[13:34] <amitk> tomorrow
[13:34] <StevenK> So another round of NEW, too
[13:35] <davidm> StevenK, does that mean changes to the image building or is that solved too?
[13:35] <persia> And updates/uploads to debian-installer and ubiquity are then required to be able to install.  It needs to be all NEWed by Monday in order to make the beta release (and people will grumble at that).
[13:36] <ogra> and after beta only critical fixes are allowed ....
[13:36] <StevenK> davidm: It does.
[13:36] <ogra> so we need to get everything in this week
[13:36] <amitk> persia: I _could_ just not bump ABI, since I don't expect there to be any 3rd parties depending on us
[13:36] <amitk> yet
[13:36] <StevenK> davidm: After I get linux-lpia-meta done and in the archive, livecd-rootfs gets another upload
[13:36] <davidm> StevenK, OK
[13:37] <persia> amitk: Please bump if you're changing.  I'd rather be loosely aligned with the base kernel anyway.
[13:37] <persia> (it saves explanantions as to why the kernel versions differ for -mid vs. -mobile)
[13:37] <ogra> well, i'd like to build -mobile for lpia as well
[13:38] <davidm> How badly are we going to annoy people with this?  I know we have to do it, just want to have an idea how upset this is going to make people?
[13:38] <persia> StevenK: Doesn't the presence of linux-lpia-meta mean that this will be the last time the image building script needs to be changed?
[13:38] <persia> ogra: Then -mobile i386 vs. -mobile lpia
[13:38] <ogra> right
[13:38] <StevenK> persia: Hopefully.
[13:38] <ogra> but that makes only sense if ath5k and psb is there really
[13:39] <ogra> or lrm for lpia
[13:39] <persia> davidm: Moderately, but not terribly if we can get stuff ready for them to upload Monday.
[13:39] <amitk> persia: it was never the idea to track base kernel ABI. We separated it out so LPIA could do its own ABI. So *technically* I can still rebase to base kernel and not bump ABI if no 3rd party is watching.
[13:39] <davidm> persia, OK thanks.
[13:39] <amitk> ogra: -mobile and -mid? New definitions?
[13:39] <persia> amitk: I know.  It's just me thinking about user perception: if we're changing the API, and that lets us stay matching, we may as well bump it.
[13:39] <ogra> amitk, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/History
[13:40] <ogra> amitk, wait for my status ;)
[13:40] <persia> amitk: ubuntu-mobile and ubuntu-mid are metapacakges, for the two flavours (4-6" vs. 7-9"")
[13:40] <amitk> aah
[13:40] <persia> Anyway, last thing I wanted to say was that I also did some testing of thunar as a replacement for gpe-filemanager.  I personally like it, but would like to hear from others.
[13:41] <ogra> did you look at pcmanfm as well ?
[13:41] <persia> Along with thunar-volman installed, it does mounting and unmounting nicely, and lets us drop ivman, which doesn't do it so nicely.
[13:41] <StevenK> That was the other one!
[13:41] <StevenK> pcmanfm
[13:41] <ogra> thunar is realy not much slimmer compared to nautilus
[13:41] <persia> It's well maintained by the Xubuntu team.
[13:41] <ogra> but its using a lot of resources
[13:41]  * persia has never heard of pcmanfm
[13:41] <StevenK> ivman is really a hack
[13:42] <ogra> the slimmest i've seen yet that still offers good functionallity is pcmanfm
[13:42] <ogra> uuuh, ivman
[13:42] <StevenK> ogra: Hm?
[13:42] <ogra> horrible
[13:42] <StevenK> Yes.
[13:42] <persia> Yeah. We need to not have that.
[13:43] <StevenK> So the replacement should be a file manager and drop ivman too
[13:43] <persia> And someone else takes good care of thunar.  We tried nautilus, but it didn't work so well because it depends on so much of GNOME.
[13:44] <StevenK> And it looks cramped on a Q1
[13:44] <persia> Which probably looks worse on smaller hardware.
[13:44] <persia> Assuming I can get -vesa to work at all, I'll be testing thunar at 247DPI tomorrow.
[13:45] <StevenK> Anyway, we have got side-tracked.
[13:45] <davidm> persia, is that it for your status?
[13:45]  * StevenK prods davidm to drive the meeting
[13:45] <persia> Yep :)
[13:45] <davidm> lool, your status?
[13:46]  * davidm jumps from the cattle prod that StevenK was using >;-)
[13:46] <lool> Status is that I spent most of last week in the events, and have been cathcing up on monday and writing trip report; since then, doing important intrepid and hardy uploads is my goal
[13:46] <StevenK> Haha
[13:46] <lool> I've been relatively unproductive cause I'm being dragged in side issues each time I touch something
[13:47] <davidm> lool, anything I can help with?
[13:47] <lool> I seem to touch very broken packages this week, and my little fix soon puts me in the situation where I get to keep both pieces of a previously fragile package, blah
[13:47] <lool> davidm: Not really
[13:48] <lool> I'm just piling things instead of unpiling them, but I hope it's just temporary
[13:48] <davidm> Not fun, but I'm sure you'll get it sorted.
[13:48] <davidm> anything else?
[13:48]  * lool uses this particular moment to re-raise anything critical on which I didn't get back to you recently
[13:49] <lool> So if you people think I should have dealt with something by now and haven't please raise it again!
[13:49] <davidm> Non in my mind currently
[13:49] <persia> lool: How is the VoIP stuff coming?
[13:49] <lool> The ekiga testing?  Didn't touch it again, but then they did a 3.0 release now
[13:49]  * persia is looking at a bluetooth handset, and wonders if it's going to work with -mid
[13:50] <davidm> OK, then moving on ogra status?
[13:50] <ogra> ah, not much :)
[13:50] <ogra> mainly the same as for lool, event slacking ...
[13:50] <ogra> i finished the evtouch calibration tool last night
[13:51] <ogra> and well, released the first mobile image ...
[13:51] <davidm> Oh very good, that should help a lot.
[13:51] <persia> It works for everyone but me, but looks nice.
[13:51] <ogra> http://www.umpcportal.com/2008/09/ubuntu-mobile-edition-news-and-first-boot-video/
[13:51] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.umpcportal.com/2008/09/ubuntu-mobile-edition-news-and-first-boot-video/
[13:51] <ogra> in case you havent seen it ...
[13:51] <ogra> i'm drowning in positive response
[13:51] <davidm> I've been seeing good feedback from the community
[13:51] <StevenK> Heh
[13:51] <ogra> they asked me to do a skype interview about it on friday
[13:51] <ogra> with about 60 ppl attending online
[13:52] <ogra> and to quote from teh mobile ML "From my perspective this is the true Ubuntu Netbook Edition. You should probably rename the Netbook Remix to something else or consolidate."
[13:52] <davidm> 8 minute warning
[13:52] <ogra> lexington: "THIS WASNT MY INTENTION !!"
[13:52] <ogra> but people seem overwhelmed by it
[13:53] <lool> It was also mentionned on the gnome-mobile list BTW :)
[13:53] <ogra> i'm lagging on getting the image build stuff on the build server
[13:53] <davidm> It has had a very good response from the community
[13:53] <ogra> StevenK, did more changes than i expected, some of them compicated ... that might take up some extra time to understand on my side
[13:53] <persia> Yeah, well, it's confusing.  The relation between the remix and Ubuntu has always been oddly understood.  I think http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/151 is the only thing that can be said about it.
[13:54] <davidm> ogra, anything else?
[13:54] <Burgundavia> is there a reason not to use netbook-launcher on the larger umpc/mids?
[13:54] <ogra> beyond that i'm far behind on ltsp which needs some love to not be totally crappy in intrepid, i will have to donate some time to it before beta
[13:54] <lool> ogra: Didn't know about the umpcportal post, it seems full of incorrectnesses  :-/
[13:55] <ogra> Burgundavia, its totally broken ?
[13:55] <davidm> 5 minute warning
[13:55]  * Keybuk counts 3 ;)
[13:55] <persia> Burgundavia: You probably want to ask your question in #ubuntu-mobile in about 5 minutes.
[13:55] <ogra> lool, the comments fix a lot of it
[13:55] <lool> Cool
[13:55] <lool> Keybuk: Then fix your clock :)
[13:55]  * davidm and Keybuk fight it out ;-)
[13:55] <ogra> i tried to corret stuff myself as well
[13:55] <Keybuk> lool: quite right, my clock does appear to have drifted
[13:56] <lool> Keybuk: Did you recently travel near the speed of light?
[13:56] <davidm> ogra, anything else?
[13:56]  * persia suggests a call for Any Other Business, and a swift meeting close.
[13:56] <davidm> Exactly
[13:56] <ogra> but anyway, it seems we get a lot of positive community feedback, which was exactly what i intended with the intrepid release ... i hope we can get lots and lots of input to make it rock in jaunty
[13:56] <ogra> thats it from my side
[13:56] <davidm> ogra, thanks.  Any other business from anyone?
[13:57] <persia> davidm: status?
[13:57] <ogra> heh
[13:57]  * StevenK suspects he knows why Kourou is misbehaving
[13:57] <davidm> Just attended OSiM and Maemeo summit and networked last week.
[13:58] <Keybuk> lool: I recently travelled back from West coast US, overnight, and I can never sleep - I've no idea what *month* it is :p
[13:58] <davidm> Actually worked the booth at OSiM
[13:58] <StevenK> Keybuk: It's December, and you missed UDS
[13:58] <persia> Anything special to announce as a result?
[13:58] <davidm> Spoke to several hundred people about MID and Mobile.
[13:58]  * StevenK chuckles evilly
[13:58] <davidm> Lots and lots of interest
[13:58] <davidm> anyway
[13:59] <ogra> yeah, the booth was never really empty
[13:59] <davidm> 1 minute warning
[13:59] <davidm> Close meeting going once ...............................................
[13:59] <lool> Keybuk: We're in Vendémiaire
[14:00] <mpt> It's Octember
[14:00] <davidm> #endmeeting
[14:00] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:00.
[14:00]  * tedg is thinking about what we could say to scare the mobile guys away.... "you can just ASSUME that everyone has AT LEAST 1G of swap"
[14:00] <persia> Three cheers for Octember!
[14:00] <Keybuk> tedg: don't worry about the dialog, as long as it fits in 1280x1024, we'll be fine
[14:00] <persia> teg: Well, no, that's likely to attract dissention :)
[14:00] <MacSlow> Keybuk, :)
[14:01]  * mvo waves
[14:01] <Keybuk> Riddell: ping
[14:02] <pedro_> hello folks
[14:02] <Keybuk> just waiting for a couple of stragglers
[14:02] <MacSlow> hey mvo, pedro_, Keybuk ...
[14:02] <MacSlow>  and seb128
[14:02] <Riddell> hi
[14:02] <MacSlow> and Riddell
[14:02] <pitti> hey
 argh, X crash, argh
[14:02] <MacSlow> mpt, pitti
[14:03] <pitti> #(*$#$ that's the third time in three days that X suddently went completely black while I was typing
[14:03] <pitti> it has never ever happened before
[14:03] <pitti> sorry for being late, bad timing
[14:03] <tedg> X has not been making me happy on Intrepid.
[14:04] <tedg> It's gotten a lot better, but it was crashing 3 times a day on me.
[14:04] <pitti> well, all my processes kept on running, and I could do VT switching
[14:04] <seb128> it's stable for me on intel
[14:04] <mpt> hello MacSlow
[14:04] <Keybuk> ken is on his way
[14:04] <pitti> but killing gnome-screensaver doesn't help, it just stays black, and I have to reboot (restarting gdm doesn't help either)
[14:04] <MacSlow> yeah at least that works on my laptop too
[14:04] <pedro_> it's fine for me also, i'm having some flickering though
[14:04] <Keybuk> pitti: I've had a recent X crash which was something to do with the kernel, compiz and gnome-screensaver
[14:05] <Keybuk> but I've not seen it recently, certainly not while at LPC
[14:05] <MacSlow> pitti, hm... after the last update the blanking-issue didn't happen to me again
[14:05] <MacSlow> hey kwwii
[14:05] <kwwii> hi, sorry for being late
[14:05] <tedg> pitti: Is that Intel, I have that problem on my Mac Mini alot.  Sometimes it goes white.  I seriously dislike the Intel drivers.
[14:05] <Keybuk> ok, let's get started
[14:05] <kwwii> my head stuck up an svg
[14:05] <Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-09-25
[14:05] <MacSlow> tedg, on i965/X3100
[14:05] <Keybuk> there's a few action items from last week
[14:05] <pitti> tedg: yes, it is (GMA945), but as I said, it never happened to me until Tuesday
[14:05] <Keybuk>  * mvo to talk to QA about the possibility of a "package-failures" component and triaging it
[14:06] <mvo> I sent a mail and talked to brian about it
[14:06] <tedg> MacSlow, pitti, don't know why, but that's happened all through Hardy and on in my Mini.  My wife refers to Linux as "that unstable operating system" because of it.
[14:06] <mvo> they are afraid that it might be not looked at if it ends up in a special component
[14:06] <pitti> mvo: I feel the same
[14:06] <Keybuk> tedg, MacSlow, pitti -> #ubuntu-x (lots to cover today)
[14:07] <mvo> he suggested better tagging and better client side filtering
[14:07] <pitti> *nod*
[14:07] <seb128> "client side filtering"
[14:07] <mvo> I would like to do that, but I have some -beta milestoned bugs still open so it may not make it beofre
[14:07] <Keybuk> mvo: ok, action done then :)  do you think it'd be worth discussing at UDS?
[14:07] <seb128> I bet that comes from people use mail to read bugs
[14:07] <mvo> Keybuk: yes
[14:07] <seb128> s/use/using
[14:07] <mvo> seb128: you don't use the mail interface
[14:07] <Keybuk> mpt has reported bugs
[14:07] <Keybuk>  * pitti to discuss gnome-keyring confirmation dialog behaviour in upstream bug
[14:07] <seb128> and sure they are not ignored right know assigned on wrong components
[14:08] <pitti> Keybuk: uh, sorry, not happened yet; conf and beta freeze, that; will do until next Thursday
[14:08] <Keybuk> no problem
[14:09] <Keybuk>  * mvo to forward his recent gnome-control-center changes upstream (system wide keyboard selection)
[14:09] <mvo> done
[14:09] <mvo> but not accepted :/
[14:09] <Keybuk> great
[14:09] <Keybuk> not accepted pending discussion?
[14:09] <pitti> mvo: "rejected" or "not answered"?
[14:09] <Keybuk> or rejected?
[14:09] <mvo> not flat out rejecte
[14:09] <mvo> but not favorable, they don't think that is something needed
[14:09] <seb128> rejected by one maintainer which seems to be anti set as system default action in standard interface
[14:09] <mvo> gconf is enough for everybody
[14:10] <seb128> he had the same comment to the fedora patch to set a system background (use by the new gdm for example)
[14:10] <Keybuk> interesting
[14:10] <mvo> its hopefully something that I can convince him, but the rejection is not based on code or design, its purely "we don't need this functionatly"
[14:11] <Keybuk> ok
[14:11] <Keybuk> sad to hear, but something we can work with
[14:11] <pitti> mvo: did he propose an alterative approach?
[14:11] <seb128> he's not opposed to reconsider if other people disagree though
[14:11] <Keybuk> #startmeeting
[14:11] <MootBot> Meeting started at 08:11. The chair is Keybuk.
[14:11] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[14:11] <seb128> but he thinks the "set system default" should not be in middle of standard dialogs
[14:11] <seb128> rather in a system config tool or something
[14:11] <Keybuk> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-09-25
[14:11] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-09-25
[14:11] <mvo> pitti: yes, integrate it into sabyon (or one of those systems)
[14:11] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] FOSScamp
[14:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  FOSScamp
[14:12] <Keybuk> Everybody is attending UDS, right? ;)
[14:12] <MacSlow> ja
[14:12] <mpt> We are? Oh good :-)
[14:12] <mvo> (sabayon)
[14:12] <tedg> Si
[14:12] <Keybuk> mpt: booked your flights yet?
[14:12] <mpt> I was waiting for confirmation that I was going :-)
[14:12] <Keybuk> mpt: everybody attends UDS :)
[14:12] <MacSlow> Keybuk, well I think ... just assume that we go too
[14:13] <Keybuk> FOSScamp attendance is optional
[14:13] <seb128> urg, wrong action
[14:13] <Keybuk> I guess many of you have booked already either way
[14:13] <seb128> I didn't because I'm not clear about fosscamp again
[14:13] <Keybuk> if you feel that you'll have value attending FOSScamp, or there are upstreams there you want to talk to, etc.  please attend and tell Claire that you'll be going
[14:13]  * MacSlow has only booked for GNOME-summit/hackfest
[14:13] <Keybuk> if you don't feel that there will be value in you being there, just come for UDS
[14:13] <seb128> well, who is intending from upstream?
[14:13] <seb128> attending
[14:14] <Keybuk> seb128: when I've asked, I've been told that'll depend on who's coming
[14:14] <Keybuk> I've pointed out that if we get our guys to come, half the people we invite don't come anyway
[14:14] <Keybuk> or if they do, we want them for UDS too, etc.
[14:14]  * pitti will come to FOSSCamp; at worst, I'll sit down in a corner and work, but Prague's was really good
[14:14] <Keybuk> so it's up to you to judge the value
[14:14] <pitti> we could promote consistent usage of unit prefixes *duck*
[14:15] <seb128> lol
[14:15] <Keybuk> pitti: actually, that discussion has gone exactly the way I wanted it to so far ;)
[14:15] <seb128> makes me think I should put some GNOME guys on the sponsoring list
[14:15] <Keybuk> let's do a yes/no/maybe run through
[14:15] <Keybuk> me: yes
[14:15]  * MacSlow wants X and gtk+ folks at FOSScamp
[14:15] <Keybuk> pitti: yes?
[14:15] <mpt> yes
[14:15]  * tedg no
[14:16]  * pitti yes
[14:16] <seb128> no
[14:16] <seb128> (joking)
[14:16] <seb128> yes
[14:16] <Riddell> yes, got some people on the invite list
[14:16] <Keybuk> mvo: ?
[14:16]  * kwwii maybe
[14:16] <mvo> maybe
[14:16]  * mvo needs to look at the list of people first
[14:17] <Keybuk> MacSlow: have you added any to the sponsorship list?
[14:17] <MacSlow> maybe (depends on X/gtk+ people showing up)
[14:17] <Keybuk> mvo: have you added any to the sponsorship list?
[14:17] <MacSlow> Keybuk, I think I did
[14:17] <mvo> oh, I think I didn't :/
[14:17] <Keybuk> MacSlow: the wiki thinks you didn't <g>
[14:18] <MacSlow> but nobody from that realm is listed http://www.fosscamp.org/HowToAttend
[14:18] <MacSlow> Keybuk, *sigh*
[14:18] <pitti> Keybuk: should we invite the module-init-tools maintainer? (modprobe crazyness, Jon Masters)
[14:18] <Keybuk> seb128: likewise, invite people? :p
[14:18] <Keybuk> pitti: Jon is ... err ... not really working on it right now :p
[14:18] <seb128> Keybuk: right, what I wrote before, <seb128> makes me think I should put some GNOME guys on the sponsoring list
[14:19] <tedg> If there are people I should try and convince to come who will be in Boston, tell me, and I'll buy beer until they agree ;)
[14:19] <Keybuk> the guy at RH hacking on it is kylem!
[14:19] <MacSlow> Keybuk, and I cannot find the invite-list for FOSScamp
[14:19] <Keybuk> MacSlow: https://wiki.canonical.com/UbuntuPlatform/UDS/Jaunty/Sponsorships
[14:19] <pitti> Keybuk: but we are probably able to make him accept the .db patches
[14:19] <pitti> Keybuk: oh, sure; Kyle then :)
[14:19] <MacSlow> Keybuk, oh... I'm coming
[14:20] <pitti> Keybuk: I'm actually quite serious, would be nice to have him especially since our topic in jaunty is "awesome-speed"
[14:20] <Keybuk> pitti: I agree, and I'm attempting to have the "let's invite lots of RedHat people" discussion elsewhere :p
[14:20] <Keybuk> since RH are cheaper than Canonical and won't pay for them to attend :p
[14:20] <Keybuk> MacSlow: you're a yes?
[14:20] <MacSlow> Keybuk, ups
[14:20] <pitti> Keybuk: ok, let me know if I should mail him, or you will, or whatever else
[14:20] <Keybuk> ok
[14:21] <Keybuk> pitti: I wanted Arjan to come and scare the lexington guys with his demo ;)
[14:21] <pitti> lol
[14:21] <Keybuk> [action] mvo to decide on FOSScamp attendance
[14:21] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mvo to decide on FOSScamp attendance
[14:21] <Keybuk> [action] kwwii to decide on FOSScamp attendance
[14:21] <MootBot> ACTION received:  kwwii to decide on FOSScamp attendance
[14:22] <Keybuk> [action] macslow to add X/GTK+ people to FOSScamp sponsorship list
[14:22] <MootBot> ACTION received:  macslow to add X/GTK+ people to FOSScamp sponsorship list
[14:22] <Keybuk> [action] seb128 to add GNOME people to sponsorship list
[14:22] <MootBot> ACTION received:  seb128 to add GNOME people to sponsorship list
[14:23] <Keybuk> and to channel claire briefly ... please book your flights early ;)
[14:23] <Riddell> are we not to use eyas any more?
[14:23] <Keybuk> Riddell: Amity or Atlas, depending on your country
[14:23] <Riddell> ok
[14:23] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Sponsoring Overview update
[14:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsoring Overview update
[14:23] <Keybuk> [LINK] http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
[14:23] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
[14:24] <Keybuk> seb128: bug#265055
[14:24] <Keybuk> seb128: bug #265055
[14:24] <seb128> I'll have a look to this one, it's recent and I've been busy on GNOME 2.24 updates
[14:24] <Keybuk> no problem
[14:24] <Keybuk> mvo: bug #243948
[14:25] <mvo> Keybuk: needs attention
[14:25] <Keybuk> otherwise nothing else, good work all
[14:25] <mvo> but I don't want to break translations
[14:25] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Targeted and Milestoned bugs
[14:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  Targeted and Milestoned bugs
[14:26] <seb128> mvo: unsubscribe the sponsor team if that should wait next cycle
[14:26] <Keybuk> mvo: it's a fair point, if you want to defer it, remove it from the sponsor team and milestone it for later?
[14:26]  * mvo nods
[14:27] <Keybuk> ok
[14:27] <Keybuk> I was going to supply a link to the relevant ubuntu-devel-announce mail here,
[14:27] <Keybuk> but the archive has eaten it
[14:27]  * Hobbsee munches quietly
[14:28] <Keybuk> so, to remind everybody how this is supposed to work:
[14:28] <Keybuk> bugs are your own, you get to assign them to yourself, pick an importance, and quietly work on them
[14:28] <MacSlow> seb128, gee ... what's wrong with your machine? :)
[14:28] <Keybuk> and you get to pick a milestone yourself
[14:28] <Keybuk> the milestone field is for your own use, to plan your own work
[14:28] <seb128> that's an xchat-gnome issue, it closed the tab again
[14:29] <seb128> or I pressed ctrl-W too quickly or something
[14:29] <Keybuk> so if a bug just has the milestone set, nobody else will look at it
[14:29] <Keybuk> well, at least, I won't look at it, Martin won't look at it, and slangasek won't look at it
[14:30] <Keybuk> if a bug should be considered by the release managers, use the "Target to release" option
[14:30] <Keybuk> thus bugs targeted to Intrepid are those slangasek looks at
[14:30] <Keybuk> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs
[14:30] <Keybuk> and for those bugs, the Importance determines how critical it is for the release
[14:31] <Keybuk> and the milestone states which milestone it really should be completed by
[14:31] <Keybuk> in summary:
[14:31] <Keybuk>  * use importance and milestone field for your own use on non-targeted bugs
[14:31] <Keybuk>  * target a bug to the development release to put it on the RM's radar
[14:32] <Keybuk>  * importance and milestone of targeted bugs specifies how release critical it is
[14:32] <Keybuk> and I'll update my reminder mail to say "release targeted bugs" not "milestoned bugs" :)
[14:32]  * Hobbsee wonders if that means that the bugs that get targetted to the stable release automatically become part of the SRU team's radar.
[14:33] <Keybuk> Hobbsee: the SRU process requires you subscribe that team
[14:33] <pitti> Hobbsee: ideally they should
[14:33] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: right.  Yay for inconsistency. :)
[14:33] <Keybuk> targeting to a release doesn't automatically notify a RM
[14:33] <Keybuk> you may have to actually poke an RM to have it accepted ;)
[14:33] <Hobbsee> Keybuk: yes, and i'm sure that's a bug, too.
[14:33] <Keybuk> I can do it, I think pitti can too, etc.
[14:33]  * Hobbsee can as well.
[14:33] <Keybuk> LP process aside, this is how we do things today
[14:33] <Hobbsee> right, OK, carry on :)
[14:34] <pitti> Hobbsee: the trouble is that not many people actually *can* create stable target tasks
[14:34] <Keybuk> on that note, I stuck the list of release-targeted bugs for our team in the agenda
[14:34] <pitti> Hobbsee: which is why we use subscription and nomination
[14:34] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Release  bug list
[14:34] <MootBot> New Topic:  Release  bug list
[14:34] <Hobbsee> pitti: ah, right.  yes, that's true.
[14:34] <Keybuk> I have a libtool patch to sort out :-/
[14:34] <Keybuk> btw, if any of these shouldn't be done for the release, update the bug status, remove milestone, etc.
[14:35] <Keybuk> pitti: for beta, bug #262228
[14:35] <pitti> yep, on track
[14:35] <pitti> trouble with beta freeze is that it leads to "priority inversion"
[14:35] <pitti> we first work on the non-targetted bugs, and during the freeze on the targetted ones
[14:36] <Keybuk> pitti: bug #256981 - no milestone, important for the release or not?
[14:36] <pitti> since the latter will still go through, while the former won't
[14:36] <Keybuk> err
[14:36] <Keybuk> that's not the right number
[14:36] <Keybuk> bug #256891
[14:36] <pitti> Keybuk: not beta critical, but i'd like to sort it out fir final
[14:36] <Keybuk> final critical or would like?
[14:37] <pitti> the latter, really
[14:37] <pitti> apparently we have that bug for several releases already, so it can hardly be too bad
[14:37] <Keybuk> pitti: bug #199059 - no milestone?
[14:37] <pitti> I didn't set it for intrepid/hardy, was someone else; hardly a release blocker
[14:37] <Keybuk> is that in pm-utils or hal-info or both? :)
[14:38] <pitti> someone said it needs a pm-utils patch, too
[14:38] <pitti> hal-info is fixed in intrepid, sru pending for hardy
[14:38] <pitti> (that causes pm-utils to be marked for hardy/intrepid as well)
[14:38] <Keybuk> ok, marked as non-rc
[14:39] <Keybuk> pitti: bug #263097 - no milestone?
[14:39] <Keybuk> pitti: the theory goes that if we backport something to hardy, we really ought to make sure that ends up in intrepid ;);)
[14:39] <pitti> Keybuk: it should really have one, we are doing it in hardy
[14:40] <pitti> Keybuk: well, 'intrepid' isn't that an implicit "8.10 final" milestone?
[14:40] <Keybuk> ok, please update as you see fit ;)
[14:40] <Keybuk> pitti: no, there's a specific milestone
[14:40] <pitti> I know, but isn't that kind of redundant?
[14:40] <Keybuk> no milestone could mean "SRU later" or "declined"
[14:40] <pitti> ah, ok
[14:40]  * pitti milestones
[14:41] <pitti> [done]
[14:41] <Keybuk> mvo: bug #273979 - for beta
[14:41] <mvo> #2739979 - tricky, happens because we dropped the uncompressed Packages files from the CD but keep them in the Release file, that makes apt-cdrom unhappy, I'm investigating a solution, important for beta
[14:41] <Keybuk> (random: I used to have a "bug xxx" shortcut, it broke a while ago, but google i'm feeling lucky always gives me the right url anyway :p)
[14:41] <Keybuk> mvo: bug #267382 - for final
[14:41] <mvo> (tricky because to get a backported fixed apt from the CD apt on hardy must know about the CD ...)
[14:42] <mvo> Keybuk: came to my attention just today, but should be fix commited
[14:42] <Keybuk> plz update
[14:42] <mvo> will do
[14:42] <Keybuk> mvo: bug #189406 - for beta?
[14:42] <mvo> no, cosmetic
[14:42] <Keybuk> ok, I'll unmilestone and wishlist it
[14:42] <mvo> (version is part of the changelog)
[14:43] <mvo> (but some people are quite attached to this feature)
[14:43] <Keybuk> mvo: bug #261423 - for beta?
[14:43] <Keybuk> some people are attached to the idea that the dinosaurs only lived 4,000 years ago
[14:43] <mvo> yes, not ciritical but should be in bzr
[14:43] <mvo> so its good to expose it for beta
[14:43] <mvo> (the fix)
[14:43] <Keybuk> mvo: for beta or final or "would be nice" ?
[14:44] <mvo> beta
[14:44] <Keybuk> mvo: bug #19021
[14:44] <mvo> "would be nice"
[14:44] <mvo> update-manager can deal with that now
[14:44] <mvo> and update-notifier shows "something is wrong, click here to correct"
[14:44] <Keybuk> ok
[14:45] <mvo> so its less important nowdays
[14:45] <Keybuk> mvo: thanks
[14:45] <Keybuk> tedg: bug #274140 - for beta
[14:45]  * Keybuk is sure that's not how you spell visibility :p
[14:45] <tedg> tedg: Yes, I'll get that one fixed.
[14:45] <tedg> It's the next one though...
[14:46] <Keybuk> tedg & seb128: bug #274146 - also for beta
[14:46] <seb128> as said yesterday it's tricky
[14:46] <seb128> changing user configuration on upgrade is not something we usually do
[14:46] <Keybuk> sure, but there seemed to be some solutions
[14:46] <seb128> and not something we can do easily
[14:46] <Keybuk> we've moved and replaced applets in the past
[14:46] <seb128> which ones?
[14:46] <seb128> no we didn't
[14:47] <Keybuk> GNOME certainly have
[14:47] <tedg> I think we need to have a UDS session on this, I think we're going to need to be more aggressive on migrating config in the future.
[14:47] <seb128> at least not on upgrade, we let user tweak their config
[14:47] <Keybuk> tedg: UDS is somewhat after beta ;)
[14:47] <seb128> they replaces applets, which means deprecated the old namespace and made it migrate to the new one
[14:47] <seb128> but that doesn't change the applet location
[14:47] <tedg> Keybuk: Hey, if I recall earlier you don't know what month it is ;)
[14:47] <pitti> Keybuk: just to be clear, this doesn't affect new installations, right? it looks just fine in the guest session
[14:47] <seb128> and is made for things which are in place replacements
[14:48] <Keybuk> pitti: it was wrong in new installations as well
[14:48] <Keybuk> at least, it was on yesterday's daily
[14:48] <tedg> Keybuk: ?  Really?  I'm pretty sure I fixed that last week.
[14:48] <pitti> Keybuk: did we actually enable cronjobs again? on Tuesday we still had alpha-6 images
[14:48] <seb128> Keybuk: what was wrong? having the fast user switch in the corner? that has been changed the day of alpha6
[14:48] <seb128> and I confirmed it works fine using new user profiles there
[14:49] <Keybuk> pitti: I don't think so, the last daily was 18
[14:49] <Keybuk> I have a 23 to test later
[14:49] <tedg> I think it'll be fixed in that one.
[14:49] <seb128> anyway change on upgrade is a no go for beta imho
[14:50] <Keybuk> seb128: beta is the last opportunity we have to do it
[14:50] <Keybuk> it's when many people upgrade
[14:50] <tedg> We can't do it on upgrade really anyway, we'll have to check for it on login.
[14:50] <seb128> I'm reluctant to tweak user configuration, there is no easy way to do that
[14:50] <Keybuk> ok, I understand
[14:50] <tedg> I believe panel migrates all the settings from the defaults to the user's home for us.
[14:50] <seb128> we could deprecated the old fast user switching namespace
[14:50]  * Keybuk will need to escalate that, since it's expected that we'll migrate users on upgrade to the new applet
[14:51] <seb128> and replace the old session button one by the new fast user switch applet
[14:51] <seb128> that would somewhat work for standard config
[14:51] <Keybuk> so I'll need to talk with mdz and maybe sabdfl about not doing it
[14:51] <seb128> but people who decided to remove their session button and keep an user switching applet would have it deleted on upgrade for example
[14:51] <Keybuk> seb128: that doesn't sound bad?
[14:52] <seb128> that's hackish and will break custom config as I said
[14:52] <tedg> I think that it's bad, but I think that this is partially a policy issue.
[14:52] <Keybuk> if you upgrade now, it gets ugly
[14:52] <Keybuk> since that applet is not designed to float in the middle of the panel
[14:52] <tedg> If we want to keep the "touch no users config" as part of the Ubuntu Policy -- it's impossible.
[14:52] <Keybuk> where it has been in our previous config
[14:52] <seb128> I would rather do that:
[14:52] <mdz_> Keybuk: if you have a consensus in the team and with mpt, the only person who needs convincing is Mark
[14:53] <tedg> We could change the namespace, and have it auto add itself.
[14:53] <seb128> hum, no wouldn't work either
[14:53] <Keybuk> wouldn't end up in the right place?
[14:54] <tedg> Since by default all of the "places" are actually an ordering, we could add one to them without people noticing alot.  If they've adjusted the config, it's unlikely they've hit "1" or "2" for the pixel location.
[14:54] <Keybuk> ok, let's push on otherwise we'll be out of time
[14:54] <seb128> I'm thinking about it but I see no good way
[14:54] <tedg> I think it's kinda nasty though.
[14:54] <Keybuk> kwwii: bug #269500 - for beta
[14:55] <Keybuk> kwwii: bug #269504 - for beta
[14:55] <Keybuk> these seem to basically both be "we need icons for this dialog"
[14:55] <Keybuk> can you get the list from seb128
[14:55] <kwwii> those are all the same bug, basically, and seb128 and I talked about it
[14:55] <seb128> Keybuk: we talked about it on #ubuntu-devel before the meeting
[14:55] <kwwii> the one icon is missing completely, and the other is not available in all sizes
[14:55] <Keybuk> ok, great
[14:56] <kwwii> and just to mention it, using view-refresh for the reboot icon is evil
[14:56] <Keybuk> Riddell: bug #241916 - no milestone?
[14:56] <kwwii> but I will fix it by making the two icons...might take a day though
[14:56] <Riddell> Keybuk: yet to look at it closely
[14:56] <Keybuk> ok
[14:56] <seb128> kwwii: vuntz attach an icon the upstream bug, http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=507101, http://bugzilla.gnome.org/attachment.cgi?id=118735
[14:56] <Riddell> more important is bug 259278
[14:56] <Keybuk> [topic] release status
[14:56] <MootBot> New Topic:  release status
[14:56] <Riddell> and bug 273489
[14:56] <Keybuk> pitti: anything we didn't cover with the bug list?
[14:57] <seb128> kwwii: vuntz attached an icon in the upstream bug, rather
[14:57] <pitti> there's two things which still bother me
[14:57] <pitti> first, gnome-session session saving/restoring doesn't work at all
[14:57] <Keybuk> Riddell: those two didn't appear on my list an hour ago ;)
[14:57] <kwwii> seb128: erm, I think I will go ahead and make my own version :-)
[14:57] <pitti> that seems like quite a serious regression to me, but apart from rolling back to intrepid's gnome-session there's not much we can do, I suppose? seb128?
[14:57] <seb128> kwwii: right, I was just pointing it in case
[14:58] <seb128> pitti: right
[14:58] <seb128> pitti: upstream will argue that never really worked correctly
[14:58] <pitti> so, as with gvfs, yet another thing that upstream changed without providing a replacement
[14:58] <pitti> seb128: with compiz; worked just fine with metacity..
[14:58] <pitti> well, yeah, no point in whining here
[14:59] <pitti> my second thing is something we should be able to fix
[14:59] <pitti> libgphoto camera handling is broken
[14:59] <pitti> both gvfs and f-spot try to use the device through libgphoto
[14:59] <pitti> gvfs mounts it first, and thus f-spot just errors out
[14:59] <pitti> IMHO f-spot should use the fuse mountpoint location
[14:59] <pitti> ?
[14:59] <Keybuk> sounds reasonable
[15:00] <seb128> pitti: well, gvfs is not really similar, gnomevfs was crappy and gvfs is better in several way, but let's not start about that now (btw alex is back to work since this week so bugs will be fixed again)
[15:00] <pitti> so that f-spot will only ever see "mounts" and treat mass storage and libgphoto cams equally
[15:00] <seb128> pitti: that would work for me, but are we sure everybody is in the fuse group to do that?
[15:01] <pitti> seb128: would 'always use fuse' just be a change in the .desktop file?
[15:01] <pitti> seb128: right, if we do a "check if fuse exists, if not fall back to libgphoto" change, that needs code
[15:01] <seb128> well, it's using gphoto now
[15:01] <pitti> seb128: that fuse group bothers me a lot, though
[15:01] <pitti> we Just Shouldn't Have It
[15:02] <Keybuk> pitti: you seemed to have touched all these bits last ;)
[15:02] <seb128> pitti: the easy solution is to disable the gphoto gvfs automounting again otherwise, as we did in hardy
[15:02] <Keybuk> any other release status bits?
[15:02] <pitti> yes, I'll take it on my plate, I just wanted to make sure that using the fuse mountpoint is a sane thing to do
[15:02] <pitti> Keybuk: I have two questions, yes
[15:02] <Keybuk> ok
[15:02] <pitti> anyway,  I'll handle those offline, nevermind
[15:02] <Koon> oops.
[15:02] <Koon> o/
[15:03] <Keybuk> pitti: please carry on ;)
[15:03] <pitti> mvo: what's missing in intrepid-desktop-systemprefs? (it's beta-avail)
[15:03] <pitti> seb128: what's missing in consolidate-spell-checkers? (it's beta-avail)
[15:03] <Keybuk> I'm on a call now, but I'll watch
[15:03] <pitti> other specs are implemented, and two deferred; good job, team!
[15:04] <seb128> pitti: I think the spell checker one can be switched to implemented
[15:04] <mvo> pitti: I think that its implemented, but I double check if I missed something
[15:04] <pitti> seb128, mvo: thanks; can you please review the spec and make sure we've got everything, and if we do, set it to implemented?
[15:04] <pitti> that would make a nice clean record for the beta freeze :)
[15:05] <seb128> pitti: will do
[15:05] <Keybuk> ok, great
[15:05]  * persia notes that the Java team isn't gathering actively right now, and so won't mind if the desktop meeting runs well over: the Java meeting may happen in #ubuntu-java as we are all present.
[15:05] <mvo> done
[15:05] <Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/ReportingPage
[15:05] <pitti> I'm done
[15:05] <Keybuk> could everyone please update that
[15:05] <Keybuk> today is due day for the reports
[15:05] <Keybuk> otherwise AOB?
[15:06] <pitti> not much to report there in terms of shiny things :/
[15:06] <pitti> bug fixes are a little too low-level for that
[15:06] <Keybuk> thanks all
[15:06] <pitti> beta! beta! beta! beta! developers! developers! developers!
[15:06] <Keybuk> sorry persia ;)
[15:07] <persia> Keybuk: Really, no issue (as I said).  I hope that's not always the case, but today is good.
[15:08]  * mvo waves
[15:08] <kwwii> bye
[15:08] <pitti> thanks everyone
[15:08] <robilad> good afternoon, java lovers
[15:09] <persia> OK then.  Java Team meeting.
[15:09] <persia> Who's here?
[15:09] <robilad> me
[15:11] <persia> Right.  Koon?  slytherin?  doko?
[15:11] <Koon> o/
[15:11] <Koon> was lost in channel changes
[15:12] <persia> No problem.  Sorry for confusion.
[15:12] <persia> OK.  Seems were half here, so let's get started.
[15:12] <persia> Agenda is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting
[15:12] <persia> Nothing special this week, so we'll just hit status points from the roadmap.
[15:13] <persia> robilad: You're up first.  How is your integration analysis work going?
[15:13] <robilad> very slowly
[15:14] <robilad> i was on vacation for two weeks, so not much happened
[15:14] <robilad> i am right now looking into what it would take to get hudson packaged
[15:14] <robilad> using maven
[15:14] <robilad> as it's a much smaller example
[15:14] <robilad> to test Koon's ideas on
[15:15] <persia> smaller is probably better as a start :)
[15:15] <persia> OK.  Let's jump there then: Koon: how is maven?
[15:15] <robilad> since it's a server app, it also requires the tomcat/gf/* mess
[15:15] <robilad> but yeah
[15:15] <Koon> can't be smaller than my helloWorld project :)
[15:15] <robilad> you win ;)
[15:15] <Koon> on maven I finalized the bootstrap analysis
[15:15] <Koon> it's a lot less work than I first imagined
[15:16] <Koon> basically we are missing 15 packages to be able to package a helloWorld using Maven
[15:16] <Koon> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/MavenKissBootstrap
[15:16] <Koon> all these packages can be packages using ant
[15:16]  * slytherin forgot about meeting again. :-(
[15:16] <Koon> s/can be packages/more than probably can be packages/
[15:17]  * Koon finds the 'd' key again
[15:17] <persia> Excellent, so we don't have to bootstrap, but can build on a proper foundation?
[15:17] <Koon> no weird bootstrap thing as I originally feared
[15:17] <robilad> nice!
[15:18] <Koon> those are just JARs, they don't even have a maven build process per se in their sources
[15:18] <Koon> I packaged maven-shared-io as a test
[15:19] <persia> Wonderful.  Would you mind opening needs-packaging bugs for those, and subscribing the team?  We can put out a general announcement during Open Week, and probably get them all in REVU within November.
[15:20] <Koon> sure, will do. I'll also update the MavenSupportSpec doc so that the KISS method is the design chosen and implementation follows those needs-packaging bugs
[15:20] <persia> Excellent.  Do we need a UDS session for this, or are we likely to do just fine without?
[15:21] <Koon> I won't be at UDS so I'd say we could try to do fine without
[15:21] <persia> That's sufficient reason :)
[15:21] <Koon> unless we invite debian-java guys to discuss more collaboration
[15:22] <persia> slytherin: Have you heard anything about maven from debian-java?
[15:22] <slytherin> persia: No.
[15:22] <Koon> so far my efforts to push Java fixes to debian-java have not been responded
[15:23] <robilad> anything I can do?
[15:23] <persia> slytherin: You joined debian-java, right?  Any guidance for Koon?
[15:23] <slytherin> Koon: maven is packaged in pkg-java svn. Why not simply join the project and do the changes yourself. When you request for uploader the changes will get reviewed
[15:24] <Koon> slytherin: I don't need any change to maven. That's the beauty of the KISS approach ;)
[15:24] <Koon> I was more concerned about new library packages
[15:25] <Koon> like the list of 15 required in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/MavenKissBootstrap
[15:26] <Koon> as for other changes (tomcat 5.5 for example) my fixes sometime undo what another guy did, and I don't feel comfortable fixing it without first discussing it
[15:27] <slytherin> Koon: Let's do it this way, announce on debian-java mailing list that you are going to package those library packages (to make maven work) in pkg-java svn and any feedback will be appreciated.
[15:28] <Koon> hm. I'm not going to package them (all)
[15:28] <Koon> I'm going to show which packages we should do :)
[15:28] <robilad> M
[15:28] <persia> Koon: Perhaps you'd be willing to be a review point?
[15:29] <Koon> sure
[15:29] <robilad> ichael Koch and Arnaud Vandyk would be good people to ask about the tomcat changes, in case markus better is not around atm.
[15:29] <persia> We could call for arbitrary packagers during Open Week, and then feed the results into pkg-java svn.
[15:29] <persia> (once they were clean enough).
[15:30] <persia> That way the Debian folk have someone with whom they can communicate, who is responsive and responsible, yet we can leverage the Ubuntu "I want to do something" spirit, and get some work done.
[15:30] <Koon> persia: about maven-specific jars, I think we should not put them in /usr/share/java but in some maven-specific directory. As they are just used by maven and there are a lot of them
[15:31] <persia> Koon: Works for me, but that's something you do want to discuss with doko and man-di, to avoid policy confusion.
[15:31] <Koon> when the spec document is complete the best would be to get it approved by doko or someone else from Foundations
[15:32] <Koon> i'll majke sure it's completes by next week
[15:32] <Koon> complete-d
[15:32] <persia> That sounds like a good plan.
[15:32] <persia> And we'll definitely want to get it into pkg-java SVN for better review and shared maintenance, if we can.
[15:32] <slytherin> Koon: what you could do is put jars in maven directory and add symlinks in /usr/share/java
[15:33] <Koon> slytherin: for exmaple, I don't see the point of having maven-compiler-plugin.jar in /usr/share/java, link or otherwise
[15:34] <Koon> anyway, that's just an implementation detail
[15:34] <persia> Right.  Let's get the spec written, and discuss implementation when we have something to reference.
[15:34] <persia> Koon: Anything else?
[15:34] <robilad> +1
[15:34] <Koon> nothing else on the maven front
[15:35] <persia> slytherin: How is MoveToUniverse?  I see 5 bugs on the wiki page still open: are they all still valid?
[15:36] <slytherin> persia: The one for javassist is still valid. And I think the reverse-build-depends of libjavassist-java are already moved to universe though they should not have been.
[15:37] <persia> Oops.  That might have been my fault :(
[15:38] <persia> So dbus-java, libjgroups-java, libproxool-java, and libxstream-java are not considered intrepid targets at this point?
[15:39] <slytherin> persia: libxstream is as it is reverse-build-depends of libaspectwerkz2-java IIRC
[15:39] <persia> Urf.  Then libxstream is needed for intrepid.  Anything else?
[15:39] <slytherin> persia: libjgroups-java has had a sync to a version which is Free now (GPLv2) so that is also a candidate.
[15:40] <slytherin> I had requested FFE for libproxool-java but now I am not going to work on it probably.
[15:40] <persia> slytherin: OK.  Some of these don't seem to be subscribed to ubuntu-archive.  Could you review them again?
[15:41] <persia> OK.  If you're not going to do libproxool-java, it might be good to set it "wontfix" for intrepid, and come back to it later.
[15:41] <slytherin> will do all that tonight.
[15:41] <slytherin> techno_freak: What is a python coder doing in java meeting. :-P
[15:42] <robilad> there is also some nice news on the jogl front
[15:42] <persia> What's that?
[15:42] <persia> slytherin: Great.  Thanks.
[15:42] <robilad> the SGI license change allows jogl to be free, too
[15:42] <persia> Nifty, but probably jaunty at this point.
[15:42] <robilad> new packages have been prepared for debian, etc.
[15:43] <persia> Excellent.
[15:44] <slytherin> robilad: right but that will need a FFE probably. I am not going to work on it but if you want to work on it please go ahead. Then worldwind can also be moved to universe.
[15:44] <persia> I don't think we want to do that now.  Today is the first day of beta freeze.  We oughtn't have new FFes unless we *really* need them.
[15:44] <robilad> yeah, i'm not sure when the packages will hit debian, really.
[15:45] <robilad> between prepared & the new queue processing ...
[15:45] <robilad> so I'm with persia
[15:45] <persia> OK.  That's three of us who aren't going to work on jogl for intrepid.  I'm willing to call that quorum.
[15:46] <persia> Anything else for this week?
[15:46] <Koon> to get more people in the team and into meetings, we should probably advertise the meeting date and resulting meeting minutes in ubuntu-devel
[15:46] <persia> Koon: Hmm.  I agree about the minutes.  I'm not sure about advertising the date, although adding a note in the minutes about the date/time of the next meeting is probably a good idea
[15:46] <Koon> sure.
[15:47] <persia> (and the scheduler in here needs fixing: it's been regressing lately)
[15:47] <persia> robilad: You've been the secretary so far, would you mind sending minutes also to ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com?
[15:47] <robilad> sure, glad to
[15:47] <persia> robilad: Thank you.
[15:48] <slytherin> Would we like the developers from Sun who have worked on glassfish and netbeans to be part of the team?
[15:48]  * persia would like anyone interested in Java packaging for Ubuntu to be part of the team
[15:48] <robilad> ack
[15:50] <persia> OK.  Anything else?
[15:51] <robilad> i think we're through
[15:51] <slytherin> Nothing from my side
[15:51] <persia> Right.  Next meeting 2nd October.  Have a good week.