PRGUY85hey how can one help on kyudo03:14
DannyKingHas anyone used a trackball mouse for artwork? Are they more accurate / easier to use than normal mice?12:20
_MMA_DannyKing: I have a trackball with no issue. But I also have a Wacom tablet. I guess it's all what you get used to.12:26
DannyKingI have a wacom too and I love it, I was just wandering if it was worth getting a trackball too. None of the sub £50/$100 models seem to have a third button though12:27
DannyKingI spent a few hours reading the archives of the mailing list about the breathe theme12:27
DannyKingSounds like a really good project :)12:28
_MMA_DannyKing: Awesome. We'd love to have you aboard.12:32
CimiDannyKing, I have one12:32
DannyKingI'll lurk in the mailing list and in here for a month or so, to get a feel for it all and then hopefully I'll be able to help out with the icons :)12:33
DannyKingCimi: Would you say it's worth buying one if I have a wacom tablet too?12:33
Cimino, lie with the mouse and the wacom12:33
DannyKingGreat, thanks :)12:34
_MMA_DannyKing: I should have it ready to start by this weekend. We'll be starting with a base set of 6 icons and working from there.12:34
Cimi_MMA_, I hope breathe would not replace tango-based icon themes in gnome, but will replace just oxgen , isn't it?12:35
_MMA_kwwii: You wanna send me your changes to the Breathe folder?12:35
DannyKingGreat - has a colour palette been worked out?12:35
_MMA_Cimi: It's just for Ubuntu.12:35
Cimi_MMA_, you'll have inconsistent look12:35
Cimihuman is not consistent though12:36
_MMA_Cimi: We know what we're doing. ;)12:36
DannyKingOops, running late for a client - back in a while12:36
CimiI'm just worried about mixing oxygen and tango icons12:36
_MMA_Cimi: That's not what we're doing.12:37
Cimi_MMA_, isn't breathe using oxygen guidelines?12:37
_MMA_Cimi: No. Just FreeDesktop naming guidelines.12:37
Cimiwith oxygen I mean the style12:37
Ciminot the namings12:37
Cimialso gnome icon theme 2.24 is following the freedesktop naming guidelins IIRC12:38
_MMA_Cimi: *Kinda* using the style. Just a bit. We will try to find our own somewhat but will be heavily Oxygen influenced. Ken will keep us in line with that. We also might have some of those guys help.12:39
Cimiplease be influenced by tango guidelins otherwise an inconsistent gnome will appear to our eyes ;)12:40
_MMA_No. That means heavy outlines on all the icons like Tango.12:41
Cimiif you want a consistent look, that is.12:41
_MMA_And the styles *don't* have to fit together. In the end it will show us what we still have to work on.12:41
darkmatterlol Cimi, GNOME is already inconsistent, I don't think anyone will notice :P12:41
Cimidarkmatter, 2.24 is much more consistent than 2.2212:42
darkmatterbarely ;P12:42
Cimibut yeah, with human icons is actually a pain12:42
Cimiif you use the default gnome icon theme is consistent12:42
_MMA_Oxygen and GNOME don't fit together so its a safe bet Breathe won't either.12:42
Cimiso I can argue that it is a waste of time?12:43
_MMA_Cimi: You can argue your *opinion* all you want. ;)12:43
Cimiyou told me ;)12:44
darkmatterCimi:  matching icons and decent background do not equal consistent when the ui needs serious surgery. but yeah... at least its an improvement12:44
Cimi_MMA_> Oxygen and GNOME don't fit together so its a safe bet Breathe won't either.12:44
_MMA_Cimi: You think they have to. We don't. Simple.12:44
_MMA_The end game is having a complete set for Ubuntu. Not GNOME.12:44
CimiIf you're working hard on an icon theme that won't be consistent and match the overall look why I can't argue it is a waste of time?12:45
Cimiso you're going to replace every icon application with a breath-like new one?12:45
_MMA_Eventually. That's the plan.12:45
_MMA_But we don't really have to replace upstream app icons. Like Inkscape and what not.12:46
_MMA_If you wanna get into that, that's already an inconsistent mess.12:47
Cimi_MMA_, in this case it is not a waste of time, since you'll have consistent look, but it will be a HARD work12:47
_MMA_And in the end, that's their branding. It can look like what they want.12:47
Cimiand *long*12:47
darkmatterI wouldn't call it hard, just time consuming12:47
_MMA_I never said I was gonna have it done in a week. :)12:47
_MMA_bbs. Gotta make breakfast.12:50
Cimigotta have lunch12:51
thorwilgreat. a little trolling about a "brand new theme" not happening and suddenly everyone finds their voice13:33
thorwil_MMA_: but at least this sounds good http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=5857993&postcount=413:34
_MMA_It's the way of things.13:34
_MMA_thorwil: Yeah. That does sound promising.13:35
thorwil_MMA_: have a link for him at hand?13:36
_MMA_Not off hand. I'd have to search.13:36
_MMA_thorwil: And I tinkered a little more with the floor image. http://mma.users.ubuntustudio.org/floor_gray.png13:38
_MMA_I gotta even out the tone. I can't get it right with adjusting the curves.13:39
thorwil_MMA_: i told you that it is not that easy ;)13:39
_MMA_thorwil: Ok. So what text in the template do you think needs to be clearer? Keep in mind that there will be very few people that will see this and they will most likely be capable enough to get it. Or at least after asking once be able to understand. :)13:49
thorwil_MMA_: the text has to say how the filenames come to be, if it shall be of any use13:49
_MMA_thorwil: Well, thing is, I'll be inputting that. As I will be adding all the Oxygen images to a template and uploading to BZR.13:50
_MMA_So once I set up that base, there should be no reason for anyone to touch that.13:50
_MMA_Hell. I might just yank the text from the icon.SVGs. I'm just not sure it will be of use.13:52
_MMA_Ill try it with the 1st round of icons and see how it goes.13:52
thorwil_MMA_: just have the explanation available close to the download13:52
_MMA_Will be easy to add back.13:52
_MMA_I'll leave it in the template though.13:53
_MMA_kwwii: ping13:55
kwwii_MMA_: hey man13:56
* kwwii had a *long* night13:56
kwwiibut made 3 icons :-)13:56
_MMA_What sizes?13:56
kwwiisome 16x16 and a couple 128x128 as well as two 48x4813:57
_MMA_kwwii: For Breathe?13:58
kwwii_MMA_: nope, for Intrepid bugs13:59
_MMA_I thought you mentioned tinkering with the folder icon KenV did?13:59
DannyKing_MMA_:  Can I PM you?14:05
thorwillol, my request for mood boards on the community cafe is on page 4 now, with a single silly reply14:10
_MMA_thorwil: I know. I know. It's enough to make people who really work on stuff give up.14:11
_MMA_kwwii: oi!14:12
kwwiiman, don't screeam so loud14:13
darkmatterthorwil: link?14:13
thorwildarkmatter: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=93002214:14
_MMA_kwwii: SO when will you be able to get me a folder revision and you idea of a new base mime icon?14:14
kwwiinot sure, really busy getting stuff done for the beta14:15
kwwiithey gave me a list14:15
darkmatterthorwil: lol.. that's an absolutely fabulous idea. community spirit+fun all packed in the same scrumptious muffin! You'd think it would actually warrant an actual response14:16
* _MMA_ can't remember how many times he's done the same and got nothing. People (the kids) only want to bitch. (generally)14:18
_MMA_kwwii: At least you can focus with a list. :) But as far as Breathe, ok. I'll be updating the files that are there and calling for the start of work on the base set today/tomorrow.14:20
thorwildarkmatter: heh, yes. i thought it would have a chance. i guess to possibility of productivity dragged it down ;)14:20
_MMA_thorwil: And though it's the right way to go about it, I think it's above alot of people's head unfortunately. :(14:21
darkmatter_MMA_: indeed. tis the way of GNU. whine, bitch, and moan about how your free-ride isn't meeting your exacting specifications, and do absolutely jack-shit to even attempt to give an explaination of what you would like to see. YAY FOR PROGRESS!14:22
_MMA_So because kwwii can't be bothered to show me (kidding, kidding) lemmie poll the people here. kwwii would like to get away from the "curled edge" file icons.14:24
_MMA_Image: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~breathe-dev/breathe-icon-set/trunk/download/head:/empty.png-20080922034016-sdtei4bmt1gjvp8r-2/empty.png?file_id=rendered-20080904180602-4kcena7h7l22ot23-414:24
_MMA_What would you guys like to see?14:24
_MMA_Or look at at the bottom here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons14:25
thorwil_MMA_: no curl is worth a try14:25
thorwilno silly photoshoppy effects on our icons!!!14:26
thorwilwell, except maybe lens flares!14:26
DannyKingI'd like to see a move away from gloss14:27
thorwilDannyKing: welcome in the club14:27
_MMA_thorwil: You wanna give a the base file image a go?14:27
darkmatterkill the curl and using bold, rainbow hued lettering stencil "I R FILEZ!!!111!!!" on it14:27
thorwil_MMA_: not before the folder and perhaps one of the others14:28
_MMA_DannyKing: We will be. Where it makes sense. The Oxygen set does have some but I think there is more a reason now for it. In that the real objects that were drawn do.14:28
DannyKingWhat about a more realistic page - with imperfections (like any piece of paper on your desk right now)14:28
_MMA_Oxygen is nothing like Chrystal thank goodness.14:29
=== njpatel is now known as njpatel_away
darkmatterDannyKing: ala Leopard but without the aged look? ;P14:29
DannyKingYeah, I guess so, that sounds nice :)14:29
_MMA_DannyKing: Anyone is free to take a stab at it.14:29
* thorwil has to clean the room14:30
_MMA_thorwil: Well the 6 on that page will be the start so I'm not so sure the order matters. Though I do agree the folders will set the tone. I think it will stay close to the feel it has now though.  kwwii has changes in mind.14:31
_MMA_We surely have to at least fix the perspective on the CD-ROM disk. But I'd rather new drives.14:33
_MMA_And just from those 6 icons there you can see inconsistent shadows.14:34
DannyKingIs there a defined style guide that I've not managed to find on the wiki or mailing list? (e.g. that defines, viewpoint, light source, colour?)14:34
darkmatteractually, something similar too http://www.istartedsomething.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/journal.jpg minus the curl would be nice (using the breathe palette of course)14:34
DannyKingviewpoint = perspective14:34
DannyKingdarkmatter: I agree14:35
DannyKingIs that an Apple icon?14:35
_MMA_DannyKing: For the moment, we're going to use the ones in the Oxygen base. But we are damn sure we will find many places where even their set has mistakes. We will fix those.14:35
DannyKingOkay, thanks14:36
_MMA_DannyKing: Color will be included in the source SVGs. It will probably be a good idea to be familiar with the current Human set as we are mixing it with the Oxygen set.14:37
DannyKingOkay, I'll take a look14:37
darkmatterDannyKing: umm.. I cant remember.. it's either Leopard or a Vista extra.14:37
darkmatterBut the point is, if you copy the general 'feel', even flat/unlined, an icon designed like that is clearly representative of a doc/file14:37
DannyKingI think the paper icons might look better if they had the same angle as the journal14:38
_MMA_I like the way it kinda has that fiber look to the paper.14:38
DannyKingOr at least appears to be leaning on something rather than just... flat the desk14:39
DannyKingYes me too14:39
darkmatter_MMA_: that's actually what I meant by 'feel'14:39
darkmatterthe actual paper-fiber texturing is what caught my eye14:39
* DannyKing likes the detail of the leather strap on the journal too14:40
_MMA_That fiber detail will have to be dropped at smaller sizes though. Most likely in favor of just coloring the icon slightly.14:40
darkmatter_MMA_: yup.. but for the high res it does wonders14:41
DannyKingYes, I agree. This thumbnail doesn't look quite as good: http://www.istartedsomething.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/journal.thumbnail.jpg14:41
_MMA_In the end this is gonna be a long process and we will revise *alot*. kwwii can fill you in about that re: Oxygen.14:42
darkmattermuch like the folders in openSUSE Gilouche... although I don't like the smaler sizes in the gilouche theme (bold tango crayon outlines... very inconsistent with the larger sizes)14:42
DannyKingSo is it intended to have a brown/orange theme or is that not set in stone yet?14:43
* DannyKing likes brown/orange14:43
_MMA_DannyKing: They are in the palette yes.14:44
andreasndarkmatter: crayon?14:44
_MMA_So anyone wants to take a stab at the file icon just email 'em to me and I'll use 'em with some specific filetypes. Multimedia/office files and whatnot.14:44
andreasndarkmatter: did they change those since I was a kid?14:45
darkmatter_MMA_: http://jimmac.musichall.cz/i.php?i=suse11-industrial  <--- you culd take an approach similar to that for the smaller sizes, but not so 'bold' with the outlines14:45
darkmatterandreasn: :P14:45
_MMA_darkmatter: Have you looked at the wiki links I posted or seen the ML lately?14:46
darkmatterandreasn: it's not a complaint, its just that, regardless of my respect for the work done on tango, it's a bit heavy-handed, ala a crayon :P14:47
darkmatter_MMA_: yup14:48
andreasndarkmatter: ah, just wondering if you meant "looks crayon" as in "I think it looks like something a kid drew" or that you thought it actually thought it looked like crayon14:48
DannyKing_MMA_:  phew, found the tablet svg file... I had almost formatted that entire drive last week so that was lucky!14:48
darkmatter_MMA_: it's just that the 48x48's on the wiki lack definition.. granted it's still in draft..14:49
darkmatterin regards to the folders I mean14:50
_MMA_darkmatter:I actually feel the 48px ones should be rendered from the larger sizes and everything below get altered or redrawn. But that will most likely be debated.14:51
_MMA_DannyKing: In the end, alot of the drawing will be up to others. I will be doing alot of technical stuff. People will need to be involved and create. My main role has been removing the barriers to let people just create.14:51
_MMA_DannyKing: Though I have generated alot of work for studio and such, I don't consider myself much of an artist.14:52
DannyKingI fully intend to be one of those people. My situation is this: I have 10 days before I go to Uni and I'm working in the very last stages of a web development contract which will hopefully be completed in a few days, so it's possible I could do some almost full-time work for a few days soon. After that I'll probably not have any time for a month, but I'd love to be able to contribute to the icon theme after that14:53
_MMA_DannyKing: Sure. Like I said, the icon work is bite-sized and will take a while to get the set done. So no rush. Just keep up with reading the ML and you should be fine.14:55
DannyKingWill do :)14:55
kwwiianyone running Intrepid and my PPA shuld update and see if the new human icon theme fixes the logout dialog14:59
kwwiiwhere is popey when you need him14:59
_MMA_kwwii: Ill add the PPA now.14:59
_MMA_kwwii: What *was* the issue so I can look?15:00
kwwii_MMA_: the new logout dialog was all messed up...the top icon was small and the suspend icon simply didn't exist15:03
kwwiiso it showed something ugly instead15:03
_MMA_kwwii: So it should be fairly obvious. I really dont like the new dialogs. How all the power/logon options are split now.15:05
kwwiiyeah, and they are using crazy icons for this stuff cause they didn't like the others15:05
zniavrehello i read you talking about logout dialog >there is a way to theme it as gdm ?15:07
kwwii_MMA_: it just built 7 minutes ago, so it might not show up yet15:08
kwwiizniavre: there is a way to change it I think, yes15:08
zniavrewhere is the logout config folder please i can't find it15:09
_MMA_kwwii: That's good though because it lets me see it broken, and it looks odd here so I guess I have the old one.15:10
kwwiiteh refresh arrow thingy at top should be small15:10
kwwiiand the suspend icon is some other icon from your installed themes15:11
_MMA_kwwii: yep15:11
kwwiiif I did it right, that should be fixed with my updates15:11
kwwiiI added the arrow at other sizes (vector as well)15:11
kwwiiand added an icon for suspend15:12
_MMA_I'll let you know. I might have to grab you changes for my set.15:12
Cimikwwii, mockups dude!15:12
Cimiif you want a new look in intrepid of course15:13
kwwiiCimi: ok, I will take time later this evening and send you something15:13
kwwiiI have something 50% done15:14
=== njpatel_away is now known as njpatel
darkmatterhttp://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Professional+Hardy+-+Preview?content=90290 <--- LOL? oO15:41
darkmatterthat's roughly as professional as the dog pooh I accidentally stepped on last time I went for a walk ;o15:42
DannyKingI suppose it depends on your definition. For an office that wouldn't be considered professional, but perhaps in a recording studio it might15:45
DannyKingAlthough it hurts my eyes when I read it... :p15:46
andreasnkwwii: what crazy icons? view-refresh for reboot?15:47
kwwiiandreasn: yes, exactly15:47
kwwiiand system-shutdown for suspend15:47
andreasnkwwii: if by the others, the ones from the previous logout dialog, I don't think that was ever submitted upstream15:47
kwwiiwell, sure but just picking a refresh icon is kinda dumb15:48
DannyKingWhat are the other suggestions for a reboot icon?15:49
andreasnI'm not sure, I kind of have a hard time making my mind up if refresh and reboot is the same thing or not15:49
DannyKing(I assume by refresh icon you guys are talking about two arrows in a circle?)15:49
kwwii_MMA_: nice one :-)15:49
DannyKingTo me they are definitely similar15:49
andreasnboth the human reboot icon and gnome-icon-theme are blue shapes, two arrows15:50
kwwiiDannyKing: in the human theme it is just one arrow15:50
andreasngnome-icon-theme refresh that is15:50
DannyKingkwwii: ah, okay - that makes less sense15:50
kwwiithe reboot icon in human is two arrows15:50
andreasnyes, that's what I'm saying15:51
kwwiiwell, apparently they didn't like that icon15:52
kwwiiI think that they thought the simple shapes are too hard to tell apart15:52
kwwiino, my guess is that this is mpt and co15:53
andreasnwasn't it just that they didn't want to patch the dialog?15:53
andreasnanyway, I don't have any idea really15:55
kwwiiyeah, I have no idea either :-)15:55
andreasnbut if there should be specialized icons for reboot etc. I think it would be best to file a upstream bug about that15:56
kwwiiI just get to fix things at the last minute :p15:56
_MMA_kwwii: I thought you would like that. :P15:59
Cimikwwii, please disable rgba at compile15:59
Cimior remove it from the options rgba = FALSE16:00
Cimiwe will enable it when it will be more supported (system widely)§16:00
_MMA_I'd personally rather have it enabled at compile but turned off in the theme.16:01
_MMA_That lowers the barrier for users to test things later.16:01
Cimirgba = FALSE16:01
kwwiiuntil now I cannot see any bugs from it16:01
kwwiiand I have been running it like that for months16:01
Cimikwwii, it makes applications unconsistent16:01
_MMA_*IF* turned on in the theme.16:02
kwwiiyeah, that is true16:03
_MMA_So like I said, "I'd personally rather have it enabled at compile but turned off in the theme."16:04
kwwiiok, time for a meeting16:05
DannyKingWould it be useful for me to draft a proposed style guide (that can be changed at request, of course) for the breathe icon theme _MMA_? What I would hope to achieve from it would be clear guidance on lighting, colours, perspective, personality/feel to ensure continuity. I know there are ideas on this already, but they seem scattered around and it might help to have them all in one place, similar to Apple's page here: http://develope17:08
DannyKinghttp://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/AppleHIGuidelines/XHIGIcons/chapter_15_section_7.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/20000967-TPXREF106  for example is great17:09
_MMA_Sure. I have that link. Thought I even put it on the wiki.17:10
DannyKingOh I may have missed it in that case17:11
_MMA_DannyKing: I'm all for you editing the wiki for your ideas. There should be a section for it already.17:11
_MMA_Just nothing specific added yet.17:12
DannyKingOkay, thanks17:18
thorwilDannyKing: regarding personality/feel, Breathe should align with Kyūdō17:23
_MMA_thorwil: How? This is what I keep missing.17:24
thorwil_MMA_: same target audience and message17:24
_MMA_thorwil: I never thought Kyūdō defined style.17:25
thorwil_MMA_: i think this means decidedly _not_ conservative. our young web savvy professionals like renewal, a touch of avantgarde17:26
thorwil_MMA_: after defining the why and what, you get to the how. all meant to be included there17:27
_MMA_Sure. but I was under the impression that Kyūdō was the process to help define that for future projects? Not define that *now*.17:28
_MMA_I think *not* letting audience be decided as needed is dangerous.17:28
thorwil_MMA_: parts of it can be thought of a as a framework. other parts rely on decisions. now17:29
thorwil_MMA_: so the process would be the same, the outline would stay, but if you decide you need another audience strategy, you have to rework everything from that point on17:30
_MMA_thorwil: For instance. I'm completely open to the Ubuntu CE and ME guys being active here. The can have radically different audiences.17:30
thorwil_MMA_: in that case, we need a split there. branching17:31
_MMA_"you have to rework everything from that point on" Then I would say that Kyūdō should be the base only. And leave out definitions.17:31
thorwil_MMA_: but i'm worried about having any particpation, not about some projects that didn't step into the room at all yet ;)17:31
thorwil_MMA_: i will not build with air and wan to avoid being even more abstract17:32
_MMA_Sure. Im just trying to think of the future. Though I realize its unlikely. However it *is* likely someone would want to use the Kyūdō process and not any exact definitions or answers to the questions even within our current community.17:33
_MMA_Kith vs. NewWave or something.17:33
thorwil_MMA_: the audience-independant parts are already set apart as Mindset and Process17:33
_MMA_thorwil: Ok. Ill have to review things again.17:34
DannyKingWay off topic: anyone use synergy and know a way around the clipboard becoming unresponsive?17:36
_MMA_Not I. I've never noticed actually.17:38
_MMA_Though it's been months since I rant it.17:38
DannyKingI love synergy but it seems to have stopped being developed sadly.17:39
=== njpatel is now known as njpatel_away
=== DanaG1 is now known as DanaG
_MMA_Just a note, Inkscape SVN has switched to FreeDesktop compliance wrt it's settings. ~/.config/Inkscape now instead of ~/.inkscape.20:08
savvasis anyone good with licenses here?20:09
_MMA_Ask away.20:09
savvashead to logo > licensecopyright20:10
savvasI wanted to mix 1&3 or 2&320:10
savvaser.. I mean I would like.. :)20:11
savvasbut I don't know which license to choose for the "remixed" logo20:11
savvasI think the fbi dude is public license, the nuvola stop hand I don't know, and the current event icon is LPGL20:12
_MMA_nuvola stop is CC-BY-SA20:12
_MMA_So... Wow. I gotta think about that. :)20:13
savvasok, sorry for taking precious time, but I'm trying to help out in that project and don't want to have any problems with licenses :)20:13
_MMA_3 licenses. All allow derivatives. But how to combine.20:15
_MMA_Gimmie a min Ill try to figure this out.20:16
savvasalrighty, take your time20:16
* savvas pours some tea and shares :p20:16
_MMA_savvas: You want to use 2 of these in 1 image?20:16
_MMA_The public domain one is no problem.20:17
_MMA_Its mixing 2+3 that will be an issue.20:17
savvasthat's the one i'm currently using hah20:18
_MMA_Otherwise, mixing 1+any other is fine. Use the "other" license.20:18
savvasso 1+3 should be LGPL ?20:18
savvasok thanks!20:20
savvasanother thing, now.. if it's GPL + LGPL, the resulting icon would be LGPL?20:21
_MMA_Hmm... That I dont know.20:21
savvasdarn.. is there a gnu license channel around? :)20:22
_MMA_I also think if you use CC-BY-SA the derivative work *has* to be SA. SO that might mess things with the LGPL image up.20:22
_MMA_There is a creative commons channel.20:22
savvasI'll dig up their sources, maybe I'll find two same licenses that use the same license20:23
savvasbingo! http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Current_event_clock.svg public license20:30
=== DanaG1 is now known as DanaG
savvasi'll just beautify it a bit20:32
darkmatterhmmm... we really need a library to get gtk to read window states from metacity...20:42
darkmatterplus some kind of generic hook in gtk itself to plug into the library... hmmmm20:44
=== mark2 is now known as Guest39010
savvaswoot, the new public-domain current event :P21:03
savvasit's not as good as the licensed one, but hey.. it's a clock :P21:05
darkmatterclocks are evil, we should all switch to sundials21:16
savvasi know what you mean21:18
savvasI set intrepid's time zone in time-admin to europe/belgrade and it always comes up as europe/sarajevo21:19
savvaswas fixed in hardy, but this looks like a small regression to gutsy and feisty heh21:19
_MMA_Cimi: I would like to have the stripe (Studios blue highlight) back on *active* tabs at the very least. If I had my way the inactive tabs would get them also but they would gray out or something.21:29
_MMA_This would defiantly help dark themes to show active tabs better.21:29
Cimiincrease lightborder_ratio?21:30
_MMA_Im unaware of that setting.21:30
* _MMA_ looks.21:31
_MMA_Cimi: I don't see where that effects things. In the end. I believe the removal of the little color on the tabs is a mistake. I wish I knew the rational behind the decision. I'd like it put back on at least active tabs. That removal of color to me only makes things feel more plain.21:36
Cimithe rational is due to consintency. the stripes didn't look consistent with a lot of themes and had problems with dark themes (it looked ugly with a various range of dark colorschemes). also having striped tabs is not necessary: see firefox, windows or osx: neither of them is using a striped tab21:39
_MMA_Then make it an option. Leave it there for designers. And who cares what Mac/Windows does? ;)21:42
_MMA_Cimi: Remember "ugly" in an opinion. I believe the studio theme looked quite nice with it. This touch is also one reason we continued using the engine.21:43
DanaGI just tested the theme I use, by changing the background to black... and those tabs look about the same quality both when dark and when light.21:44
DanaGNot necessarily "great" -- but the same.21:45
Cimi_MMA_, use another engine21:46
lucazade_new tab design is the state of the art, i would not change a line in murrine21:46
_MMA_Cimi: Great attitude. The picture of a developer.21:48
Cimi_MMA_, why on earth I should change something I'm convinced of? :)21:48
_MMA_Cimi: It would be *trivial* for you to add back as an *option*. Leave it to theamers to decide.21:49
Cimiit will result in 100 more lines21:50
Cimiit is not so trivial21:50
Cimithough if you have better designs for selected tabs I could care about21:50
CimiI've asked on my blog for mockups, but none replied (neither you)21:50
_MMA_Cimi: Not to mention that you have been actively looking for ideas/mock-ups.21:51
CimiI actually have no better ideas than remove those stripes21:51
CimiI'm planning to add an option for a "tabstyle"21:51
_MMA_Cimi: I haven't said anything before because I had nothing to add. Now I do. So Im saying something.21:51
Cimibut I won't add that option for the previous design21:51
=== cody-somerville_ is now known as cody-somerville
Cimiprovide a mockup with something *better* than the previous21:52
_MMA_Oh FFS. "better" is a opinion. And if you don't agree now, what's the point? Put the stripe back as an option on active tabs. That's all I would like. Doesn't require a mock-up.21:53
_MMA_If you won't, oh well. But don't have a crap attitude and tell me to "use something else". It's part of the problem in our community.21:54
Cimino I don't, at least not for the previous look. I can't accept request to everybody or the engine will become a pain to maintain.21:54
lucazade_have an option for tabs could be good, btw the stripes look outdated21:55
Cimi_MMA_, there's no problem to use a different engine for tabs21:55
Cimijust add engine "clearlooks" and you'll got it21:55
_MMA_Cimi: None that look like the previous ones.21:55
Cimiand if you don't like it too, change engine! :) this is free software21:55
_MMA_Cimi: Yeah. And hear you complain about it again. No thanx.21:56
CimiI gave you a reasonable reason why I have deprecated the old one21:56
Cimiand a reason why I won't add 100-200 lines of code just for 2 lines of stripe21:57
_MMA_Reasonable for you. An additional *option* that can be turned on/off hurts nobody IMO.21:57
Cimihurts the developer ;)21:57
* _MMA_ forks Murrine into FunMurrine. :P21:57
Cimiwho has another option to take care about21:58
Cimitake care of21:58
* Cimi hopes someone will teach him english someday in the future21:59
_MMA_Cimi: Our *major* problem around free software is developers and designers don't talk or listen to each other. This attitude only perpetuates that. I'm not saying we have to always agree, but I just don't see at all how *this* options hurts anyone. Even if it means more lines of code.22:00
Cimi_MMA_, taking a code readable is a prerogative of a good coder. if you see oxygen's code you'll know why they need one week to change two pixels ;)22:02
_MMA_I don't understand that. ^^^22:03
_MMA_Are you saying the code you previously wrote was bad?22:04
lucazade_those stripes look strange, i don't think this could be a good option to be added22:04
lucazade_maybe something new22:04
_MMA_Cimi: If not, this was a *design* choice by you. Not code related. You didn't like the *look*.22:05
Cimi_MMA_, I'm saying that an user won't see difference with one option more or less. but a coder will have more code to maintain, and this will result in a code less readable22:06
DanaGWhat's the new appearance?  I'm just curious.22:06
CimiDanaG, http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/175266/Schermata.png22:07
_MMA_Cimi: I don't agree at all users won't see that stripe removed. 1st thing I saw with kwwii's updated package.22:07
Cimi_MMA_, it is code related because if it would require +10 lines instead +100-200 I will add it22:07
DanaGHmm, I actually can't decide whether I like it or not, but thanks.. now I know what the discussion is about.22:07
Cimi_MMA_, OT: is "I will add it" correct in english?22:08
Cimior I should use I would add it?22:08
_MMA_Cimi: I'm sorry man, but it's just one more thing that makes themes look flat. The stripe gave things color.22:09
_MMA_Cimi: *would22:09
Cimibest tabs on the earth are from clearlooks :)22:09
lucazade_but is too much related with the selected_bg_color with the stripes22:09
Cimibut on murrine they looks not consistent22:09
Cimithey look22:10
Ciminot looks22:10
Cimidamn fucking idiot I am22:10
_MMA_Cimi: Naa... It's better than my Italian for sure. Don't worry about it. ;)22:11
Cimiunfortunately I had a stupid teacher22:12
Cimishe didn't teach us much more than what I've learnt from other sources22:12
_MMA_Just come to the States or UK for a couple of months. Being *in* the language is always best.22:13
Cimibasically, I've learnt to speak english here on IRC22:13
Cimi_MMA_, could be, but someone should convince me first to leave my girlfriend for a couple of months :)22:14
_MMA_Cimi: Also, don't take my strong opposition to this new Murrine change to mean I'm personally pissed at you. I just *really* think it's a mistake to remove it all together. Any decision I take with Studio always has choice in mind. Even when something needs to be removed I try to give other options.22:15
_MMA_Cimi: You're young. Girlfriends come and go. ;)22:16
Cimi_MMA_, I'm quite a serious guy (I mean I'm not searching sex but love)22:17
Cimiwe are engaged for 4 years22:18
_MMA_You Italians always say that. :P22:18
Cimithe time I went in USA (seattle)22:18
CimiI got two different woman (30+ years old)22:18
Cimiwho tried to seduce me :)22:19
_MMA_And you said "girlfriend". Had you said "fiancée" that would have changed my reply.22:19
Cimiit seems they like italians as well :)22:19
_MMA_It's *just* the accent. :)22:20
zniavrethere is any software as xnest to check (try*)  usplash ? please22:25
Cimizniavre, maybe a virtual machine :)22:26
zniavreyep it's what i do not want to do in fact but ...22:26
_MMA_It is the easiest way.22:27
zniavrethank you22:27
_MMA_I *think* there's another way to test but it involved some crazy commands that escape me atm.22:28
zniavredo not mind im dlding iso right now22:28
_MMA_je t'en prie22:30
_MMA_(hope that's correct)22:30
zniavresorry i wrote french by error    (yes it was correct)22:31
_MMA_zniavre: No problem. Casual use of other languages is fine. IMO (in my opinion) it helps bring people together. Creates understanding. It's only when chat gets really detailed or involved it becomes an issue. :)22:34
Cimia lot of bugfixes tonight for murrine :)22:35
_MMA_It helps Americans the most I feel because we live in such a big country it alot harder to be exposed to other languages in the same way Europeans are.22:35
_MMA_Though Spanish is becoming big because if immigrants from latin America22:36
DanaGOoh, community-themes is now a package.22:52
Cimi_MMA_, spanish is spoken more than english23:25
Cimikwwii, from revision 73 murrine supports rounded Entry in firefox23:27
Cimino more ugly squared fill23:28
Cimibut you need to update firefox23:28
_MMA_Cimi: Source? I always see Spanish just under English. With Mandarin being the most overall.23:34
Cimi_MMA_, that's true23:35
CimiI'm wrong23:35
CimiI have studied with outdated books23:35
_MMA_English and Spanish are very close though. I see a couple of lists put Spanish *just* above but you always have to look at the dates. ie: Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers#Top_20 has them as close as 13million but its sources vary in dates. Hard to really know.23:38
savvasthey're latin-based23:40
savvasalthough spanish people are a lot like greeks :)23:40
_MMA_Cimi: And anyway, how does that relate to what I said before? Unless you're trying to start some kinds "English is teh best!" fight with me? :)23:45
Cimi_MMA_> Though Spanish is becoming big because if immigrants from latin America23:46
CimiI remembered (incorrectly) that it was already more spoken than english23:46
_MMA_Cimi: There's a context to that statement you might have missed.23:47
Cimi_MMA_, yeah, I'm fixing murrine ;)23:47
_MMA_"Though Spanish is becoming big because if immigrants from latin America" referred to the growing use to Spanish in the U.S.23:47
savvasthe spanish inquisition.. :)23:51
* _MMA_ can only think of the Mel Brooks film "The history of the World" hen he hears those words. :P23:52

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