[03:14] <PRGUY85> hey how can one help on kyudo
[12:20] <DannyKing> Has anyone used a trackball mouse for artwork? Are they more accurate / easier to use than normal mice?
[12:26] <_MMA_> DannyKing: I have a trackball with no issue. But I also have a Wacom tablet. I guess it's all what you get used to.
[12:27] <DannyKing> I have a wacom too and I love it, I was just wandering if it was worth getting a trackball too. None of the sub £50/$100 models seem to have a third button though
[12:27] <DannyKing> I spent a few hours reading the archives of the mailing list about the breathe theme
[12:28] <DannyKing> Sounds like a really good project :)
[12:32] <_MMA_> DannyKing: Awesome. We'd love to have you aboard.
[12:32] <Cimi> DannyKing, I have one
[12:33] <DannyKing> I'll lurk in the mailing list and in here for a month or so, to get a feel for it all and then hopefully I'll be able to help out with the icons :)
[12:33] <DannyKing> Cimi: Would you say it's worth buying one if I have a wacom tablet too?
[12:33] <Cimi> no, lie with the mouse and the wacom
[12:34] <DannyKing> Great, thanks :)
[12:34] <_MMA_> DannyKing: I should have it ready to start by this weekend. We'll be starting with a base set of 6 icons and working from there.
[12:35] <Cimi> _MMA_, I hope breathe would not replace tango-based icon themes in gnome, but will replace just oxgen , isn't it?
[12:35] <_MMA_> kwwii: You wanna send me your changes to the Breathe folder?
[12:35] <DannyKing> Great - has a colour palette been worked out?
[12:35] <_MMA_> Cimi: It's just for Ubuntu.
[12:35] <Cimi> _MMA_, you'll have inconsistent look
[12:36] <Cimi> human is not consistent though
[12:36] <_MMA_> Cimi: We know what we're doing. ;)
[12:36] <DannyKing> Oops, running late for a client - back in a while
[12:36] <Cimi> I'm just worried about mixing oxygen and tango icons
[12:37] <_MMA_> Cimi: That's not what we're doing.
[12:37] <Cimi> _MMA_, isn't breathe using oxygen guidelines?
[12:37] <_MMA_> Cimi: No. Just FreeDesktop naming guidelines.
[12:37] <Cimi> with oxygen I mean the style
[12:37] <Cimi> not the namings
[12:38] <Cimi> also gnome icon theme 2.24 is following the freedesktop naming guidelins IIRC
[12:39] <_MMA_> Cimi: *Kinda* using the style. Just a bit. We will try to find our own somewhat but will be heavily Oxygen influenced. Ken will keep us in line with that. We also might have some of those guys help.
[12:40] <Cimi> ok
[12:40] <Cimi> please be influenced by tango guidelins otherwise an inconsistent gnome will appear to our eyes ;)
[12:41] <_MMA_> No. That means heavy outlines on all the icons like Tango.
[12:41] <Cimi> if you want a consistent look, that is.
[12:41] <_MMA_> And the styles *don't* have to fit together. In the end it will show us what we still have to work on.
[12:41] <darkmatter> lol Cimi, GNOME is already inconsistent, I don't think anyone will notice :P
[12:42] <Cimi> darkmatter, 2.24 is much more consistent than 2.22
[12:42] <darkmatter> barely ;P
[12:42] <Cimi> but yeah, with human icons is actually a pain
[12:42] <Cimi> if you use the default gnome icon theme is consistent
[12:42] <_MMA_> Oxygen and GNOME don't fit together so its a safe bet Breathe won't either.
[12:43] <Cimi> so I can argue that it is a waste of time?
[12:43] <_MMA_> Cimi: You can argue your *opinion* all you want. ;)
[12:44] <Cimi> you told me ;)
[12:44] <darkmatter> Cimi:  matching icons and decent background do not equal consistent when the ui needs serious surgery. but yeah... at least its an improvement
[12:44] <Cimi> _MMA_> Oxygen and GNOME don't fit together so its a safe bet Breathe won't either.
[12:44] <_MMA_> Cimi: You think they have to. We don't. Simple.
[12:44] <_MMA_> The end game is having a complete set for Ubuntu. Not GNOME.
[12:45] <Cimi> If you're working hard on an icon theme that won't be consistent and match the overall look why I can't argue it is a waste of time?
[12:45] <Cimi> ok
[12:45] <Cimi> so you're going to replace every icon application with a breath-like new one?
[12:45] <_MMA_> Eventually. That's the plan.
[12:46] <_MMA_> But we don't really have to replace upstream app icons. Like Inkscape and what not.
[12:47] <_MMA_> If you wanna get into that, that's already an inconsistent mess.
[12:47] <Cimi> _MMA_, in this case it is not a waste of time, since you'll have consistent look, but it will be a HARD work
[12:47] <_MMA_> And in the end, that's their branding. It can look like what they want.
[12:47] <Cimi> and *long*
[12:47] <darkmatter> I wouldn't call it hard, just time consuming
[12:47] <_MMA_> I never said I was gonna have it done in a week. :)
[12:50] <_MMA_> bbs. Gotta make breakfast.
[12:51] <Cimi> gotta have lunch
[12:51] <Cimi> ;)
[13:33] <thorwil> great. a little trolling about a "brand new theme" not happening and suddenly everyone finds their voice
[13:34] <thorwil> _MMA_: but at least this sounds good http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=5857993&postcount=4
[13:34] <_MMA_> It's the way of things.
[13:35] <_MMA_> thorwil: Yeah. That does sound promising.
[13:36] <thorwil> _MMA_: have a link for him at hand?
[13:36] <_MMA_> Not off hand. I'd have to search.
[13:38] <_MMA_> thorwil: And I tinkered a little more with the floor image. http://mma.users.ubuntustudio.org/floor_gray.png
[13:39] <_MMA_> I gotta even out the tone. I can't get it right with adjusting the curves.
[13:39] <thorwil> _MMA_: i told you that it is not that easy ;)
[13:49] <_MMA_> thorwil: Ok. So what text in the template do you think needs to be clearer? Keep in mind that there will be very few people that will see this and they will most likely be capable enough to get it. Or at least after asking once be able to understand. :)
[13:49] <thorwil> _MMA_: the text has to say how the filenames come to be, if it shall be of any use
[13:50] <_MMA_> thorwil: Well, thing is, I'll be inputting that. As I will be adding all the Oxygen images to a template and uploading to BZR.
[13:50] <_MMA_> So once I set up that base, there should be no reason for anyone to touch that.
[13:52] <_MMA_> Hell. I might just yank the text from the icon.SVGs. I'm just not sure it will be of use.
[13:52] <_MMA_> Ill try it with the 1st round of icons and see how it goes.
[13:52] <thorwil> _MMA_: just have the explanation available close to the download
[13:52] <_MMA_> Will be easy to add back.
[13:52] <_MMA_> Sure.
[13:53] <_MMA_> I'll leave it in the template though.
[13:55] <_MMA_> kwwii: ping
[13:56] <kwwii> _MMA_: hey man
[13:56]  * kwwii had a *long* night
[13:56] <kwwii> but made 3 icons :-)
[13:56] <_MMA_> Cool.
[13:56] <_MMA_> What sizes?
[13:57] <kwwii> some 16x16 and a couple 128x128 as well as two 48x48
[13:58] <_MMA_> kwwii: For Breathe?
[13:59] <kwwii> _MMA_: nope, for Intrepid bugs
[13:59] <_MMA_> :(
[13:59] <_MMA_> I thought you mentioned tinkering with the folder icon KenV did?
[14:05] <DannyKing> _MMA_:  Can I PM you?
[14:05] <_MMA_> Sure
[14:10] <thorwil> lol, my request for mood boards on the community cafe is on page 4 now, with a single silly reply
[14:11] <_MMA_> thorwil: I know. I know. It's enough to make people who really work on stuff give up.
[14:12] <_MMA_> kwwii: oi!
[14:13] <kwwii> man, don't screeam so loud
[14:13] <darkmatter> thorwil: link?
[14:13] <_MMA_> :P
[14:14] <thorwil> darkmatter: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=930022
[14:14] <_MMA_> kwwii: SO when will you be able to get me a folder revision and you idea of a new base mime icon?
[14:15] <kwwii> not sure, really busy getting stuff done for the beta
[14:15] <kwwii> they gave me a list
[14:16] <darkmatter> thorwil: lol.. that's an absolutely fabulous idea. community spirit+fun all packed in the same scrumptious muffin! You'd think it would actually warrant an actual response
[14:18]  * _MMA_ can't remember how many times he's done the same and got nothing. People (the kids) only want to bitch. (generally)
[14:20] <_MMA_> kwwii: At least you can focus with a list. :) But as far as Breathe, ok. I'll be updating the files that are there and calling for the start of work on the base set today/tomorrow.
[14:20] <thorwil> darkmatter: heh, yes. i thought it would have a chance. i guess to possibility of productivity dragged it down ;)
[14:21] <_MMA_> thorwil: And though it's the right way to go about it, I think it's above alot of people's head unfortunately. :(
[14:22] <darkmatter> _MMA_: indeed. tis the way of GNU. whine, bitch, and moan about how your free-ride isn't meeting your exacting specifications, and do absolutely jack-shit to even attempt to give an explaination of what you would like to see. YAY FOR PROGRESS!
[14:23] <_MMA_> \m/
[14:24] <_MMA_> So because kwwii can't be bothered to show me (kidding, kidding) lemmie poll the people here. kwwii would like to get away from the "curled edge" file icons.
[14:24] <_MMA_> Image: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~breathe-dev/breathe-icon-set/trunk/download/head:/empty.png-20080922034016-sdtei4bmt1gjvp8r-2/empty.png?file_id=rendered-20080904180602-4kcena7h7l22ot23-4
[14:24] <_MMA_> What would you guys like to see?
[14:25] <_MMA_> Or look at at the bottom here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons
[14:25] <thorwil> _MMA_: no curl is worth a try
[14:26] <thorwil> no silly photoshoppy effects on our icons!!!
[14:26] <thorwil> well, except maybe lens flares!
[14:26] <_MMA_> :)
[14:27] <DannyKing> I'd like to see a move away from gloss
[14:27] <thorwil> DannyKing: welcome in the club
[14:27] <_MMA_> thorwil: You wanna give a the base file image a go?
[14:27] <darkmatter> kill the curl and using bold, rainbow hued lettering stencil "I R FILEZ!!!111!!!" on it
[14:28] <thorwil> _MMA_: not before the folder and perhaps one of the others
[14:28] <_MMA_> DannyKing: We will be. Where it makes sense. The Oxygen set does have some but I think there is more a reason now for it. In that the real objects that were drawn do.
[14:28] <DannyKing> What about a more realistic page - with imperfections (like any piece of paper on your desk right now)
[14:29] <_MMA_> Oxygen is nothing like Chrystal thank goodness.
[14:29] <darkmatter> DannyKing: ala Leopard but without the aged look? ;P
[14:29] <DannyKing> Yeah, I guess so, that sounds nice :)
[14:29] <_MMA_> DannyKing: Anyone is free to take a stab at it.
[14:30]  * thorwil has to clean the room
[14:31] <_MMA_> thorwil: Well the 6 on that page will be the start so I'm not so sure the order matters. Though I do agree the folders will set the tone. I think it will stay close to the feel it has now though.  kwwii has changes in mind.
[14:33] <_MMA_> We surely have to at least fix the perspective on the CD-ROM disk. But I'd rather new drives.
[14:34] <_MMA_> And just from those 6 icons there you can see inconsistent shadows.
[14:34] <DannyKing> Is there a defined style guide that I've not managed to find on the wiki or mailing list? (e.g. that defines, viewpoint, light source, colour?)
[14:34] <darkmatter> actually, something similar too http://www.istartedsomething.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/journal.jpg minus the curl would be nice (using the breathe palette of course)
[14:34] <DannyKing> viewpoint = perspective
[14:35] <DannyKing> darkmatter: I agree
[14:35] <DannyKing> Is that an Apple icon?
[14:35] <_MMA_> DannyKing: For the moment, we're going to use the ones in the Oxygen base. But we are damn sure we will find many places where even their set has mistakes. We will fix those.
[14:36] <DannyKing> Okay, thanks
[14:37] <_MMA_> DannyKing: Color will be included in the source SVGs. It will probably be a good idea to be familiar with the current Human set as we are mixing it with the Oxygen set.
[14:37] <DannyKing> Okay, I'll take a look
[14:37] <darkmatter> DannyKing: umm.. I cant remember.. it's either Leopard or a Vista extra.
[14:37] <darkmatter> But the point is, if you copy the general 'feel', even flat/unlined, an icon designed like that is clearly representative of a doc/file
[14:38] <DannyKing> I think the paper icons might look better if they had the same angle as the journal
[14:38] <_MMA_> I like the way it kinda has that fiber look to the paper.
[14:39] <DannyKing> Or at least appears to be leaning on something rather than just... flat the desk
[14:39] <DannyKing> Yes me too
[14:39] <darkmatter> _MMA_: that's actually what I meant by 'feel'
[14:39] <_MMA_> Ahh...
[14:39] <darkmatter> the actual paper-fiber texturing is what caught my eye
[14:40]  * DannyKing likes the detail of the leather strap on the journal too
[14:40] <_MMA_> That fiber detail will have to be dropped at smaller sizes though. Most likely in favor of just coloring the icon slightly.
[14:41] <darkmatter> _MMA_: yup.. but for the high res it does wonders
[14:41] <DannyKing> Yes, I agree. This thumbnail doesn't look quite as good: http://www.istartedsomething.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/journal.thumbnail.jpg
[14:42] <_MMA_> In the end this is gonna be a long process and we will revise *alot*. kwwii can fill you in about that re: Oxygen.
[14:42] <darkmatter> much like the folders in openSUSE Gilouche... although I don't like the smaler sizes in the gilouche theme (bold tango crayon outlines... very inconsistent with the larger sizes)
[14:43] <DannyKing> So is it intended to have a brown/orange theme or is that not set in stone yet?
[14:43]  * DannyKing likes brown/orange
[14:44] <_MMA_> DannyKing: They are in the palette yes.
[14:44] <andreasn> darkmatter: crayon?
[14:44] <_MMA_> So anyone wants to take a stab at the file icon just email 'em to me and I'll use 'em with some specific filetypes. Multimedia/office files and whatnot.
[14:45] <andreasn> darkmatter: did they change those since I was a kid?
[14:45] <darkmatter> _MMA_: http://jimmac.musichall.cz/i.php?i=suse11-industrial  <--- you culd take an approach similar to that for the smaller sizes, but not so 'bold' with the outlines
[14:45] <darkmatter> andreasn: :P
[14:46] <_MMA_> darkmatter: Have you looked at the wiki links I posted or seen the ML lately?
[14:47] <darkmatter> andreasn: it's not a complaint, its just that, regardless of my respect for the work done on tango, it's a bit heavy-handed, ala a crayon :P
[14:48] <darkmatter> _MMA_: yup
[14:48] <andreasn> darkmatter: ah, just wondering if you meant "looks crayon" as in "I think it looks like something a kid drew" or that you thought it actually thought it looked like crayon
[14:48] <DannyKing> _MMA_:  phew, found the tablet svg file... I had almost formatted that entire drive last week so that was lucky!
[14:49] <_MMA_> w00t!
[14:49] <darkmatter> _MMA_: it's just that the 48x48's on the wiki lack definition.. granted it's still in draft..
[14:50] <darkmatter> in regards to the folders I mean
[14:51] <_MMA_> darkmatter:I actually feel the 48px ones should be rendered from the larger sizes and everything below get altered or redrawn. But that will most likely be debated.
[14:51] <_MMA_> DannyKing: In the end, alot of the drawing will be up to others. I will be doing alot of technical stuff. People will need to be involved and create. My main role has been removing the barriers to let people just create.
[14:52] <_MMA_> DannyKing: Though I have generated alot of work for studio and such, I don't consider myself much of an artist.
[14:53] <DannyKing> I fully intend to be one of those people. My situation is this: I have 10 days before I go to Uni and I'm working in the very last stages of a web development contract which will hopefully be completed in a few days, so it's possible I could do some almost full-time work for a few days soon. After that I'll probably not have any time for a month, but I'd love to be able to contribute to the icon theme after that
[14:55] <_MMA_> DannyKing: Sure. Like I said, the icon work is bite-sized and will take a while to get the set done. So no rush. Just keep up with reading the ML and you should be fine.
[14:55] <DannyKing> Will do :)
[14:59] <kwwii> anyone running Intrepid and my PPA shuld update and see if the new human icon theme fixes the logout dialog
[14:59] <kwwii> where is popey when you need him
[14:59] <_MMA_> kwwii: Ill add the PPA now.
[15:00] <_MMA_> kwwii: What *was* the issue so I can look?
[15:03] <kwwii> _MMA_: the new logout dialog was all messed up...the top icon was small and the suspend icon simply didn't exist
[15:03] <kwwii> so it showed something ugly instead
[15:03] <_MMA_> ok
[15:05] <_MMA_> kwwii: So it should be fairly obvious. I really dont like the new dialogs. How all the power/logon options are split now.
[15:05] <kwwii> right
[15:05] <kwwii> yeah, and they are using crazy icons for this stuff cause they didn't like the others
[15:06] <_MMA_> bah
[15:07] <zniavre> hello i read you talking about logout dialog >there is a way to theme it as gdm ?
[15:08] <kwwii> _MMA_: it just built 7 minutes ago, so it might not show up yet
[15:08] <kwwii> zniavre: there is a way to change it I think, yes
[15:09] <zniavre> where is the logout config folder please i can't find it
[15:10] <_MMA_> kwwii: That's good though because it lets me see it broken, and it looks odd here so I guess I have the old one.
[15:10] <kwwii> teh refresh arrow thingy at top should be small
[15:11] <kwwii> and the suspend icon is some other icon from your installed themes
[15:11] <_MMA_> kwwii: yep
[15:11] <kwwii> if I did it right, that should be fixed with my updates
[15:11] <kwwii> I added the arrow at other sizes (vector as well)
[15:12] <kwwii> and added an icon for suspend
[15:12] <_MMA_> I'll let you know. I might have to grab you changes for my set.
[15:12] <Cimi> kwwii, mockups dude!
[15:13] <Cimi> if you want a new look in intrepid of course
[15:13] <kwwii> Cimi: ok, I will take time later this evening and send you something
[15:14] <kwwii> I have something 50% done
[15:41] <darkmatter> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Professional+Hardy+-+Preview?content=90290 <--- LOL? oO
[15:42] <darkmatter> that's roughly as professional as the dog pooh I accidentally stepped on last time I went for a walk ;o
[15:45] <DannyKing> I suppose it depends on your definition. For an office that wouldn't be considered professional, but perhaps in a recording studio it might
[15:46] <DannyKing> Although it hurts my eyes when I read it... :p
[15:47] <andreasn> kwwii: what crazy icons? view-refresh for reboot?
[15:47] <kwwii> andreasn: yes, exactly
[15:47] <kwwii> and system-shutdown for suspend
[15:47] <andreasn> kwwii: if by the others, the ones from the previous logout dialog, I don't think that was ever submitted upstream
[15:48] <kwwii> well, sure but just picking a refresh icon is kinda dumb
[15:49] <DannyKing> What are the other suggestions for a reboot icon?
[15:49] <andreasn> I'm not sure, I kind of have a hard time making my mind up if refresh and reboot is the same thing or not
[15:49] <DannyKing> (I assume by refresh icon you guys are talking about two arrows in a circle?)
[15:49] <kwwii> _MMA_: nice one :-)
[15:49] <DannyKing> To me they are definitely similar
[15:50] <andreasn> both the human reboot icon and gnome-icon-theme are blue shapes, two arrows
[15:50] <kwwii> DannyKing: in the human theme it is just one arrow
[15:50] <andreasn> gnome-icon-theme refresh that is
[15:50] <DannyKing> kwwii: ah, okay - that makes less sense
[15:50] <kwwii> the reboot icon in human is two arrows
[15:50] <kwwii> :p
[15:51] <andreasn> yes, that's what I'm saying
[15:52] <kwwii> well, apparently they didn't like that icon
[15:52] <andreasn> upstream?
[15:52] <kwwii> I think that they thought the simple shapes are too hard to tell apart
[15:53] <kwwii> no, my guess is that this is mpt and co
[15:53] <andreasn> wasn't it just that they didn't want to patch the dialog?
[15:55] <andreasn> anyway, I don't have any idea really
[15:55] <kwwii> yeah, I have no idea either :-)
[15:56] <andreasn> but if there should be specialized icons for reboot etc. I think it would be best to file a upstream bug about that
[15:56] <kwwii> I just get to fix things at the last minute :p
[15:59] <_MMA_> kwwii: I thought you would like that. :P
[15:59] <Cimi> kwwii, please disable rgba at compile
[16:00] <Cimi> or remove it from the options rgba = FALSE
[16:00] <Cimi> we will enable it when it will be more supported (system widely)§
[16:01] <_MMA_> I'd personally rather have it enabled at compile but turned off in the theme.
[16:01] <_MMA_> That lowers the barrier for users to test things later.
[16:01] <Cimi> rgba = FALSE
[16:01] <kwwii> until now I cannot see any bugs from it
[16:01] <kwwii> and I have been running it like that for months
[16:01] <Cimi> kwwii, it makes applications unconsistent
[16:02] <_MMA_> *IF* turned on in the theme.
[16:03] <kwwii> yeah, that is true
[16:04] <_MMA_> So like I said, "I'd personally rather have it enabled at compile but turned off in the theme."
[16:05] <kwwii> ok, time for a meeting
[17:08] <DannyKing> Would it be useful for me to draft a proposed style guide (that can be changed at request, of course) for the breathe icon theme _MMA_? What I would hope to achieve from it would be clear guidance on lighting, colours, perspective, personality/feel to ensure continuity. I know there are ideas on this already, but they seem scattered around and it might help to have them all in one place, similar to Apple's page here: http://develope
[17:09] <DannyKing> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/AppleHIGuidelines/XHIGIcons/chapter_15_section_7.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/20000967-TPXREF106  for example is great
[17:10] <_MMA_> Sure. I have that link. Thought I even put it on the wiki.
[17:11] <DannyKing> Oh I may have missed it in that case
[17:11] <_MMA_> DannyKing: I'm all for you editing the wiki for your ideas. There should be a section for it already.
[17:12] <_MMA_> Just nothing specific added yet.
[17:18] <DannyKing> Okay, thanks
[17:23] <thorwil> DannyKing: regarding personality/feel, Breathe should align with Kyūdō
[17:24] <_MMA_> thorwil: How? This is what I keep missing.
[17:24] <thorwil> _MMA_: same target audience and message
[17:25] <_MMA_> thorwil: I never thought Kyūdō defined style.
[17:26] <thorwil> _MMA_: i think this means decidedly _not_ conservative. our young web savvy professionals like renewal, a touch of avantgarde
[17:27] <thorwil> _MMA_: after defining the why and what, you get to the how. all meant to be included there
[17:28] <_MMA_> Sure. but I was under the impression that Kyūdō was the process to help define that for future projects? Not define that *now*.
[17:28] <_MMA_> I think *not* letting audience be decided as needed is dangerous.
[17:29] <thorwil> _MMA_: parts of it can be thought of a as a framework. other parts rely on decisions. now
[17:30] <thorwil> _MMA_: so the process would be the same, the outline would stay, but if you decide you need another audience strategy, you have to rework everything from that point on
[17:30] <_MMA_> thorwil: For instance. I'm completely open to the Ubuntu CE and ME guys being active here. The can have radically different audiences.
[17:31] <thorwil> _MMA_: in that case, we need a split there. branching
[17:31] <_MMA_> "you have to rework everything from that point on" Then I would say that Kyūdō should be the base only. And leave out definitions.
[17:31] <thorwil> _MMA_: but i'm worried about having any particpation, not about some projects that didn't step into the room at all yet ;)
[17:32] <thorwil> _MMA_: i will not build with air and wan to avoid being even more abstract
[17:33] <_MMA_> Sure. Im just trying to think of the future. Though I realize its unlikely. However it *is* likely someone would want to use the Kyūdō process and not any exact definitions or answers to the questions even within our current community.
[17:33] <_MMA_> Kith vs. NewWave or something.
[17:33] <thorwil> _MMA_: the audience-independant parts are already set apart as Mindset and Process
[17:34] <_MMA_> thorwil: Ok. Ill have to review things again.
[17:36] <DannyKing> Way off topic: anyone use synergy and know a way around the clipboard becoming unresponsive?
[17:38] <_MMA_> Not I. I've never noticed actually.
[17:38] <_MMA_> Though it's been months since I rant it.
[17:39] <DannyKing> I love synergy but it seems to have stopped being developed sadly.
[20:08] <_MMA_> Just a note, Inkscape SVN has switched to FreeDesktop compliance wrt it's settings. ~/.config/Inkscape now instead of ~/.inkscape.
[20:09] <savvas> is anyone good with licenses here?
[20:09] <_MMA_> Depends.
[20:09] <_MMA_> Ask away.
[20:10] <savvas> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~timekpr-maintainers/timekpr/trunk/files/51
[20:10] <savvas> head to logo > licensecopyright
[20:10] <savvas> I wanted to mix 1&3 or 2&3
[20:11] <savvas> er.. I mean I would like.. :)
[20:11] <savvas> but I don't know which license to choose for the "remixed" logo
[20:12] <savvas> I think the fbi dude is public license, the nuvola stop hand I don't know, and the current event icon is LPGL
[20:12] <_MMA_> nuvola stop is CC-BY-SA
[20:13] <_MMA_> So... Wow. I gotta think about that. :)
[20:13] <savvas> ok, sorry for taking precious time, but I'm trying to help out in that project and don't want to have any problems with licenses :)
[20:15] <_MMA_> 3 licenses. All allow derivatives. But how to combine.
[20:16] <_MMA_> Gimmie a min Ill try to figure this out.
[20:16] <savvas> alrighty, take your time
[20:16]  * savvas pours some tea and shares :p
[20:16] <_MMA_> savvas: You want to use 2 of these in 1 image?
[20:17] <_MMA_> The public domain one is no problem.
[20:17] <savvas> yes
[20:17] <_MMA_> Its mixing 2+3 that will be an issue.
[20:18] <savvas> that's the one i'm currently using hah
[20:18] <_MMA_> Otherwise, mixing 1+any other is fine. Use the "other" license.
[20:18] <savvas> so 1+3 should be LGPL ?
[20:18] <_MMA_> Correct
[20:20] <savvas> ok thanks!
[20:21] <savvas> another thing, now.. if it's GPL + LGPL, the resulting icon would be LGPL?
[20:21] <_MMA_> Hmm... That I dont know.
[20:22] <savvas> darn.. is there a gnu license channel around? :)
[20:22] <_MMA_> I also think if you use CC-BY-SA the derivative work *has* to be SA. SO that might mess things with the LGPL image up.
[20:22] <_MMA_> There is a creative commons channel.
[20:23] <savvas> I'll dig up their sources, maybe I'll find two same licenses that use the same license
[20:30] <savvas> bingo! http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Current_event_clock.svg public license
[20:32] <savvas> i'll just beautify it a bit
[20:34] <_MMA_> cool
[20:42] <darkmatter> hmmm... we really need a library to get gtk to read window states from metacity...
[20:44] <darkmatter> plus some kind of generic hook in gtk itself to plug into the library... hmmmm
[21:03] <savvas> woot, the new public-domain current event :P
[21:05] <savvas> http://savvas.radevic.com/timekpr/public-domain_event_clock.svg
[21:05] <savvas> it's not as good as the licensed one, but hey.. it's a clock :P
[21:16] <darkmatter> clocks are evil, we should all switch to sundials
[21:18] <savvas> i know what you mean
[21:19] <savvas> I set intrepid's time zone in time-admin to europe/belgrade and it always comes up as europe/sarajevo
[21:19] <savvas> was fixed in hardy, but this looks like a small regression to gutsy and feisty heh
[21:29] <_MMA_> Cimi: I would like to have the stripe (Studios blue highlight) back on *active* tabs at the very least. If I had my way the inactive tabs would get them also but they would gray out or something.
[21:29] <_MMA_> This would defiantly help dark themes to show active tabs better.
[21:30] <Cimi> increase lightborder_ratio?
[21:30] <_MMA_> Im unaware of that setting.
[21:31]  * _MMA_ looks.
[21:36] <_MMA_> Cimi: I don't see where that effects things. In the end. I believe the removal of the little color on the tabs is a mistake. I wish I knew the rational behind the decision. I'd like it put back on at least active tabs. That removal of color to me only makes things feel more plain.
[21:39] <Cimi> the rational is due to consintency. the stripes didn't look consistent with a lot of themes and had problems with dark themes (it looked ugly with a various range of dark colorschemes). also having striped tabs is not necessary: see firefox, windows or osx: neither of them is using a striped tab
[21:42] <_MMA_> Then make it an option. Leave it there for designers. And who cares what Mac/Windows does? ;)
[21:43] <_MMA_> Cimi: Remember "ugly" in an opinion. I believe the studio theme looked quite nice with it. This touch is also one reason we continued using the engine.
[21:44] <DanaG> I just tested the theme I use, by changing the background to black... and those tabs look about the same quality both when dark and when light.
[21:45] <DanaG> Not necessarily "great" -- but the same.
[21:46] <Cimi> _MMA_, use another engine
[21:46] <lucazade_> new tab design is the state of the art, i would not change a line in murrine
[21:48] <_MMA_> Cimi: Great attitude. The picture of a developer.
[21:48] <Cimi> _MMA_, why on earth I should change something I'm convinced of? :)
[21:49] <_MMA_> Cimi: It would be *trivial* for you to add back as an *option*. Leave it to theamers to decide.
[21:50] <Cimi> it will result in 100 more lines
[21:50] <Cimi> it is not so trivial
[21:50] <Cimi> though if you have better designs for selected tabs I could care about
[21:50] <Cimi> I've asked on my blog for mockups, but none replied (neither you)
[21:51] <_MMA_> Cimi: Not to mention that you have been actively looking for ideas/mock-ups.
[21:51] <Cimi> I actually have no better ideas than remove those stripes
[21:51] <Cimi> I'm planning to add an option for a "tabstyle"
[21:51] <_MMA_> Cimi: I haven't said anything before because I had nothing to add. Now I do. So Im saying something.
[21:51] <Cimi> but I won't add that option for the previous design
[21:52] <Cimi> provide a mockup with something *better* than the previous
[21:53] <_MMA_> Oh FFS. "better" is a opinion. And if you don't agree now, what's the point? Put the stripe back as an option on active tabs. That's all I would like. Doesn't require a mock-up.
[21:54] <_MMA_> If you won't, oh well. But don't have a crap attitude and tell me to "use something else". It's part of the problem in our community.
[21:54] <Cimi> no I don't, at least not for the previous look. I can't accept request to everybody or the engine will become a pain to maintain.
[21:55] <lucazade_> have an option for tabs could be good, btw the stripes look outdated
[21:55] <Cimi> _MMA_, there's no problem to use a different engine for tabs
[21:55] <Cimi> just add engine "clearlooks" and you'll got it
[21:55] <_MMA_> Cimi: None that look like the previous ones.
[21:55] <Cimi> and if you don't like it too, change engine! :) this is free software
[21:56] <_MMA_> Cimi: Yeah. And hear you complain about it again. No thanx.
[21:56] <Cimi> I gave you a reasonable reason why I have deprecated the old one
[21:57] <Cimi> and a reason why I won't add 100-200 lines of code just for 2 lines of stripe
[21:57] <_MMA_> Reasonable for you. An additional *option* that can be turned on/off hurts nobody IMO.
[21:57] <Cimi> hurts the developer ;)
[21:57]  * _MMA_ forks Murrine into FunMurrine. :P
[21:58] <Cimi> who has another option to take care about
[21:58] <Cimi> take care of
[21:59]  * Cimi hopes someone will teach him english someday in the future
[22:00] <_MMA_> Cimi: Our *major* problem around free software is developers and designers don't talk or listen to each other. This attitude only perpetuates that. I'm not saying we have to always agree, but I just don't see at all how *this* options hurts anyone. Even if it means more lines of code.
[22:02] <Cimi> _MMA_, taking a code readable is a prerogative of a good coder. if you see oxygen's code you'll know why they need one week to change two pixels ;)
[22:03] <_MMA_> I don't understand that. ^^^
[22:04] <_MMA_> Are you saying the code you previously wrote was bad?
[22:04] <lucazade_> those stripes look strange, i don't think this could be a good option to be added
[22:04] <lucazade_> maybe something new
[22:05] <_MMA_> Cimi: If not, this was a *design* choice by you. Not code related. You didn't like the *look*.
[22:06] <Cimi> _MMA_, I'm saying that an user won't see difference with one option more or less. but a coder will have more code to maintain, and this will result in a code less readable
[22:06] <DanaG> What's the new appearance?  I'm just curious.
[22:06] <DanaG> (screenshot.)
[22:07] <Cimi> DanaG, http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/175266/Schermata.png
[22:07] <_MMA_> Cimi: I don't agree at all users won't see that stripe removed. 1st thing I saw with kwwii's updated package.
[22:07] <Cimi> _MMA_, it is code related because if it would require +10 lines instead +100-200 I will add it
[22:07] <DanaG> Hmm, I actually can't decide whether I like it or not, but thanks.. now I know what the discussion is about.
[22:08] <Cimi> _MMA_, OT: is "I will add it" correct in english?
[22:08] <Cimi> or I should use I would add it?
[22:09] <_MMA_> Cimi: I'm sorry man, but it's just one more thing that makes themes look flat. The stripe gave things color.
[22:09] <_MMA_> Cimi: *would
[22:09] <Cimi> best tabs on the earth are from clearlooks :)
[22:09] <lucazade_> but is too much related with the selected_bg_color with the stripes
[22:09] <Cimi> but on murrine they looks not consistent
[22:10] <Cimi> they look
[22:10] <Cimi> not looks
[22:10] <Cimi> damn fucking idiot I am
[22:11] <_MMA_> Cimi: Naa... It's better than my Italian for sure. Don't worry about it. ;)
[22:12] <Cimi> unfortunately I had a stupid teacher
[22:12] <Cimi> she didn't teach us much more than what I've learnt from other sources
[22:13] <_MMA_> Just come to the States or UK for a couple of months. Being *in* the language is always best.
[22:13] <Cimi> basically, I've learnt to speak english here on IRC
[22:14] <Cimi> _MMA_, could be, but someone should convince me first to leave my girlfriend for a couple of months :)
[22:15] <_MMA_> Cimi: Also, don't take my strong opposition to this new Murrine change to mean I'm personally pissed at you. I just *really* think it's a mistake to remove it all together. Any decision I take with Studio always has choice in mind. Even when something needs to be removed I try to give other options.
[22:16] <_MMA_> Cimi: You're young. Girlfriends come and go. ;)
[22:17] <Cimi> _MMA_, I'm quite a serious guy (I mean I'm not searching sex but love)
[22:18] <Cimi> we are engaged for 4 years
[22:18] <_MMA_> You Italians always say that. :P
[22:18] <Cimi> the time I went in USA (seattle)
[22:18] <Cimi> I got two different woman (30+ years old)
[22:19] <Cimi> who tried to seduce me :)
[22:19] <_MMA_> And you said "girlfriend". Had you said "fiancée" that would have changed my reply.
[22:19] <Cimi> it seems they like italians as well :)
[22:19] <Cimi> *women
[22:20] <_MMA_> It's *just* the accent. :)
[22:25] <zniavre> there is any software as xnest to check (try*)  usplash ? please
[22:26] <Cimi> zniavre, maybe a virtual machine :)
[22:26] <zniavre> yep it's what i do not want to do in fact but ...
[22:27] <_MMA_> It is the easiest way.
[22:27] <zniavre> right
[22:27] <zniavre> thank you
[22:28] <_MMA_> I *think* there's another way to test but it involved some crazy commands that escape me atm.
[22:28] <zniavre> do not mind im dlding iso right now
[22:28] <zniavre> merci
[22:30] <_MMA_> je t'en prie
[22:30] <_MMA_> (hope that's correct)
[22:31] <zniavre> sorry i wrote french by error    (yes it was correct)
[22:34] <_MMA_> zniavre: No problem. Casual use of other languages is fine. IMO (in my opinion) it helps bring people together. Creates understanding. It's only when chat gets really detailed or involved it becomes an issue. :)
[22:35] <Cimi> a lot of bugfixes tonight for murrine :)
[22:35] <_MMA_> It helps Americans the most I feel because we live in such a big country it alot harder to be exposed to other languages in the same way Europeans are.
[22:36] <_MMA_> Though Spanish is becoming big because if immigrants from latin America
[22:52] <DanaG> Ooh, community-themes is now a package.
[23:25] <Cimi> _MMA_, spanish is spoken more than english
[23:27] <Cimi> kwwii, from revision 73 murrine supports rounded Entry in firefox
[23:28] <Cimi> no more ugly squared fill
[23:28] <Cimi> but you need to update firefox
[23:34] <_MMA_> Cimi: Source? I always see Spanish just under English. With Mandarin being the most overall.
[23:35] <Cimi> _MMA_, that's true
[23:35] <Cimi> I'm wrong
[23:35] <Cimi> I have studied with outdated books
[23:38] <_MMA_> English and Spanish are very close though. I see a couple of lists put Spanish *just* above but you always have to look at the dates. ie: Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers#Top_20 has them as close as 13million but its sources vary in dates. Hard to really know.
[23:40] <savvas> they're latin-based
[23:40] <savvas> although spanish people are a lot like greeks :)
[23:45] <_MMA_> Cimi: And anyway, how does that relate to what I said before? Unless you're trying to start some kinds "English is teh best!" fight with me? :)
[23:46] <Cimi> _MMA_> Though Spanish is becoming big because if immigrants from latin America
[23:46] <Cimi> I remembered (incorrectly) that it was already more spoken than english
[23:47] <_MMA_> Cimi: There's a context to that statement you might have missed.
[23:47] <Cimi> _MMA_, yeah, I'm fixing murrine ;)
[23:47] <_MMA_> "Though Spanish is becoming big because if immigrants from latin America" referred to the growing use to Spanish in the U.S.
[23:48] <_MMA_> s/to/of
[23:51] <savvas> the spanish inquisition.. :)
[23:52]  * _MMA_ can only think of the Mel Brooks film "The history of the World" hen he hears those words. :P
[23:52] <_MMA_> *when