[00:15] <mdke> nellery: ok
[00:33] <mdke> nellery: you should be able to renew your own membership now I hope. Let me know if it doesn't work
[00:56] <nellery> mdke, still not possible to do so
[02:42] <nhandler> I was recommended to stop by here to try and find a solution to my wiki issue. A while ago, I added a redirect to a page on wiki.ubuntu.com. Now, I am trying to remove that redirect. However, I have been unable to find a way to edit that page. Is there a way to accomplish this?
[02:42] <technomensch> what's the page?
[02:43] <nhandler> technomensch: 'nhandler'
[02:44] <technomensch> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/nhandler??
[02:45] <nhandler> Yes technomensch
[02:48] <technomensch> give me a second.
[02:48] <nhandler> Sure thing technomensch
[02:56] <little> Anybody know how to center a table on a page?
[02:56] <little> .......on the wiki.
[02:58] <technomensch> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/HelpOnTables
[03:00] <little> I must still be doing it wrong.
[03:01] <little> I tried <tablestyle="center">
[03:01] <technomensch> it's not standard html....lemme help nhandler first get rid of the rediect.  it's not working like I remember
[03:01] <technomensch> you're next
[03:02] <nhandler> technomensch: I think the wiki update changed things. You used to be able to add on ?action=show or ?action=edit to be able to view or edit the page without doing the redirect
[03:02] <little> Okay - you're a sweetheart. (:
[03:48] <nhandler> Did you find anything technomensch ?
[04:05] <technomensch> not yet.  but I do I have an answer for little.  you still here?
[04:06] <little> Yeah
[04:06] <technomensch> take a look at this page and my edit code behind the scenes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home/PageDiscussion
[04:07] <technomensch> I centered the software developers table
[04:09] <little> w00t! It worked! Now can I leave off the width portion?
[04:09] <technomensch> I don't think so.  I wasn't able to.  you'll need to play around with it
[04:12] <little> Blast. It won't let me. I tried it a few ways. My problem is that I have a wide-screen monitor, but many people don't, and I want to make sure it will be centered for those who don't.
[04:12] <technomensch> understood
[04:13] <technomensch> try to make it look like it would look good in the new theme over on help.ubuntu.com
[04:13] <technomensch> go to preferences in help.ubuntu.com and change your theme to ubuntunew
[04:13] <technomensch> that's what we're leaning to make it look like
[04:14] <technomensch> it centers the page no matter how big the monitor is
[04:14] <little> You wouldn't happen to know what the code is for centering the text inside a cell, would you? I can't make head nor tail out of the moinmoin pages. (:
[04:16] <technomensch> yes
[04:17] <little> Thanks for the help! I think it looks downright snazzy now! https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Glossary
[04:18] <little> The table I was working on was the top one. (:
[04:18] <technomensch> almost.....hold on
[04:20] <little> It's not a desperate emergency. Go ahead and work on nhandler's question. I left a note in the code of the page for anyone who knows how to center the table. (:
[04:20] <technomensch> no, I see how it looks in the new template
[04:23] <technomensch> little, take a look now
[04:24] <technomensch> it looks very centered on my monitor in the new theme
[04:25] <little> Hmmm, my son says it's too far to the left for him now on his square monitor. It's centered for me, but it was centered for me the way I had it before. Oh, and SHORTCUTS needs to be centered, too. (:
[04:25] <little> It looks a lot better than it did earlier this morning, though. Someone had the internal shortcuts showing (the # symbol for each letter).
[04:26] <technomensch> oh poo
[04:27] <little> LOL
[04:27] <little> I wish you could just do standard HTML code. (:
[04:27] <technomensch> that's one of the many reasons I miss mediawiki code
[04:28] <little> I'm new to the whole wiki thing. I just started with it a couple of days ago.
[04:35] <little> I got the top text centered now. I think I'm getting the hang of this. (:
[04:35] <technomensch> LOL
[04:38] <little> You gave me a great idea in looking at other people
[04:38] <little> ...
[04:38] <little> people's pages to see how they did something. (:
[04:38] <technomensch> stealing code makes life easier
[04:38]  * little hates the location of the ' key.
[04:40] <little> technomensch: Thank you so much for the help! I'm headed off to bed. (:
[05:09] <technomensch> I'm sorry nhandler, but I couldn't find it
[06:17] <rsc->  How can I rename a wiki page? I want to move my page from /Artwork/Incoming/Intrepid/DustTheme to /Artwork/Incoming/DustTheme (out of the intrepid cycle).
[06:17] <Flannel> rsc-: I answered that already
[06:17] <Flannel> rsc-: There's a rename option on the drop down menu at the top of the page.
[06:19] <rsc-> I can't quite find it :/ http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/2800/screenshot2mv8.png
[06:19] <rsc-> oh oops
[06:19] <rsc-> dropdown okay
[06:20] <rsc-> Flannel, will it still be accessible from the old URL?
[06:20] <Flannel> rsc-: No, it'll be renamed
[06:21] <rsc-> so how do i redirect the old url to the new one?
[20:40] <little> Hey there, any team members on?
[20:40] <technomensch> what's up?
[20:40] <little> I'm wanting to ask some questions of team members. (:
[20:41] <technomensch> shoot.
[20:41] <little> Well, when you go to the Kubuntu wiki and try to create a page, you can select a document template. This I did.
[20:42] <little> Once I had it, I read it, and it says not to create Kubuntu pages in the Kubuntu wiki any more, but to create them in the Ubuntu wiki.
[20:42] <little> I know, I said I had questions. (:
[20:42] <technomensch> ahha
[20:42] <little> What I'm wondering is whether a change can be made to the main Ubuntu Community Documentation page to let Kubuntu users know that they're not there mistakenly, but are, in fact, welcome.
[20:43] <technomensch> you're referring to: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu
[20:43] <little> If you were brand new to Kubuntu and clicked on the Documentation link and ended up at an Ubuntu documentation page, you'd think you got something wrong.
[20:43] <little> Yep.
[20:43] <technomensch> there is actually an IRC chat room link on that page
[20:44] <technomensch> each distro has their own thoughts and rules
[20:44] <little> I went into #kubuntu-doc and was the only person there. (:
[20:44] <little> Do you know if the plan (and by that, I mean, The Plan) is for all the documentation to be concatenated into the Ubuntu wiki?
[20:44] <technomensch> no....  Join us in the #kubuntu chat room for support, or the #kubuntu-devel chat room for development.
[20:44] <little> Yeah, I did that the other day and got sent here. (:
[20:45] <technomensch> alright....um...
[20:45] <little> Basically what I'm seeing as I look over what needs to be done is that there's just SO much that needs to be done, and it's all rather disorganized, and I feel somewhat powerless to make it all better. (:
[20:45] <technomensch> have you checked the mailing list archives for the docs team?
[20:45] <little> No, and I hope that's not the only way to contact them.
[20:45] <technomensch> LOL
[20:45] <little> I hate those. (:
[20:46] <little> Regular email is fine, but those round-robin emails are messy. (:
[20:46] <little> I'm basically a fervent admirer of the Ubuntu family of software, and I love to document it, and would love to be of use, but it's such a mess that it's virtually impossible to tell where to begin.
[20:47] <little> Gosh, I'm scaring them out of the channel...
[20:47] <technomensch> I happen to agree.  I've been trying to get with mike and the rest of the team to get a meeting scheduled at some point.....
[20:47] <technomensch> hehehe
[20:47] <little> It could be cleaned up, but it appears to be growing as fast as (or faster than) it gets cleaned up, and needs to somehow be brought under some sort of control. (:
[20:48] <technomensch> here's the trick
[20:48] <little> I'm doing what I can to help, but I haven't had anyone "in power" looking over my shoulder telling me what I should, shouldn't, can, can't do, so I'm sort of flying by the seat of my pants and hoping nobody gets offended by my edits. (:
[20:49] <technomensch> use google to search the mailing list archive
[20:49] <technomensch> http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=Kubuntu+Wiki+2008+site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Flists.ubuntu.com%2Farchives%2Fubuntu-doc%2F&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
[20:49] <technomensch> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Kubuntu+Wiki+2008+site%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Flists.ubuntu.com%2Farchives%2Fubuntu-doc%2F&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
[20:49] <technomensch> sorry, somehow I ended up in the great white north instead of the good ole use
[20:49] <technomensch> usa
[20:49] <little> I'm jealous. (:
[20:50] <technomensch> where are you?
[20:50] <little> New York.
[20:50] <technomensch> FL
[20:50] <little> I'm sorry. (:
[20:50] <technomensch> that was a joke about the google search researchs
[20:50] <technomensch> results
[20:51] <little> Yeah, I realized that after you said it. So the second one is the one I want, right?
[20:51] <technomensch> yep
[20:51] <little> So the only real way to contact these people is through the mailing lists?
[20:51] <technomensch> to be honest, yea
[20:52] <technomensch> unless we can get a meeting set up
[20:52] <little> That would be my first suggestion, then: Make them easier to reach. (:
[20:52] <technomensch> the problem is time zones
[20:52] <technomensch> same place, same time
[20:53] <little> With people living all over the world, there would likely be someone up and available at any given time, wouldn't there?
[20:53] <technomensch> I'm still playing catch up myself on everything that's been decided
[20:54] <technomensch> and I was approved for the wiki team
[20:54] <technomensch> I'm trying to help clean everything up and organize it to address issues/confusions like this
[20:54] <little> Do you know if the plan is for all documentation to end up on the Ubuntu wiki?
[20:54] <technomensch> I would hope so, but I cannot say that for absolute certainty
[20:55] <technomensch> right now, I'm working on this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home/PageDiscussion
[20:56] <little> It's looking good. (:
[20:56] <technomensch> tahanks.  I liked the appearance of the marketing team's home page and decided to incorporate it
[20:57] <technomensch> I really want to try to get the teams to have a similar look.  but one step at a time
[20:57] <little> Yeah. How did you upload the graphics? Or are you linking to them from another page?
[20:57] <technomensch> currently, I'm linking them from other ubuntu pages
[20:58] <technomensch> but for that info, go to the IconPage
[20:58] <little> Bookmarked!
[20:58] <technomensch> yea, it helps
[21:00] <little> How does someone who isn't on the team re-arrange information? For instance, I see a page that works well as a main page, and could nicely have child pages off of it that logically follow the topic, going into greater detail in each.
[21:00] <little> Say I see a few pages that aren't properly related, but would work well if gathered together under such a structure.
[21:00] <technomensch> welcome to our world
[21:00] <little> Would I create that parent page, create child pages off of it, copy the information from the straggling pages and then notify someone to remove the originals?
[21:01] <little> LOL
[21:01] <technomensch> probably redirect/refesh instead of deleting would be better
[21:01] <technomensch> but a simiple reanme should work, I would think based on the way moinmoin works
[21:02] <little> Yeah, us non-team members don't have the power to rename. (:
[21:02] <technomensch> what I would do is come up with the structure.  lay it out page by page in a list format, and submit it to the mailing list.
[21:02] <technomensch> that's what I've been doing
[21:03] <little> Okay, I guess that would work.
[21:03] <little> And do you know if the tags from the Tag page somehow notify someone if you put one up?
[21:03] <technomensch> no, but those with rights check it very frequently
[21:04] <little> They do a search for tags?
[21:05] <technomensch> take a look at the page again: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Tag
[21:05] <technomensch> "List of pages with this tag"
[21:06] <little> Excellent, thanks!
[21:06] <little> I think that and the Discuss this page link at the bottom of pages will probably be my best way to communicate with the team.
[21:07] <technomensch> ::nod:::
[21:07] <technomensch> stick around, I migth have some help for ya
[21:07] <technomensch> brb...
[21:07] <little> Okay.
[21:08] <mdke> we don't tend to use "discuss this page" links at the moment
[21:08] <mdke> we don't have a good method for managing them, it's better to write to the mailing list
[21:08] <technomensch> actually, mike, we can talk here.
[21:08] <little> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/DocumentationTemplate
[21:08] <mdke> technomensch: it's Matt!
[21:09] <little> I've been adding the link to the bottom of the pages I've found in CategoryCleanup. (:
[21:09] <technomensch> sorry matt
[21:10] <mdke> little: if there is a particular issue that arises out of a page which isn't appropriate for users to read, then you can create a discussion page to point the team to when you mail the list, but generally it's not a good idea to add them to everything
[21:10] <little> mdke: Okay.
[21:11] <mdke> little: I'll update DocumentationTemplate, it isn't up to date with our current thinking from the mailing list...
[21:11] <little> This is kind of what I've been talking about. This stuff somehow needs to be made clear, and needs to be in one place, instead of in a lot of places.
[21:11] <little> I'm not complaining. I'm more than willing to help. I just like order, and I see chaos. (:
[21:12] <technomensch> matt, little also had a great question about the kubuntu...<little: he's the guy to ask
[21:12]  * little makes a note of that.
[21:12] <little> mdke: Is it the plan for all Kubuntu wiki documentation to be in the Ubuntu wiki instead of in the Kubuntu wiki?
[21:13] <mdke> little: there isn't a kubuntu wiki, as far as I'm aware. Kubuntu shares the same wiki as Ubuntu for development work, and it doesn't have a documentation wiki or website
[21:13] <technomensch> I think what little might be getting at
[21:13] <little> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/
[21:14] <technomensch> is....something like wiki.ubuntu.com/community/Kubuntu/.....
[21:14] <technomensch> little, yea, that's all moving to the main
[21:14] <mdke> little: that's the same site as wiki.ubuntu.com, with the same database, with a different theme
[21:15] <mdke> it's a single wiki
[21:15] <little> In the end, it all links to: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/
[21:16] <little> Is there a way that Kubuntu users can be made welcome on that page, either by a Kubuntu icon or some sort of text letting them know they're in the right place?
[21:16] <mdke> ok, this is all a bit confusing
[21:16] <little> A new user would be confused if sent to that page.
[21:16] <mdke> let me explain a bit
[21:17] <mdke> wiki.ubuntu.com, wiki.kubuntu.org and wiki.edubuntu.org, all of which are the same site, are for development and team management work
[21:17] <mdke> in the old days, there used to be some documentation on this wiki
[21:17] <mdke> we introduced a new documentation wiki at help.ubuntu.com/community to which all documentation pages were moved
[21:17] <technomensch> :::pause:::: in conversation
[21:18] <mdke> redirects were left on the development wiki to forward documentation pages to the new site
[21:18] <mdke> at the moment, as far as I know, Kubuntu doesn't have any organised online documentation
[21:18] <technomensch> are we including them in the removal clean up process?
[21:18] <technomensch> the redirects and old pages, that is
[21:18] <little> That is the question!
[21:19] <mdke> no, they are on a different website and have nothing to do with the cleanup efforts we've been doing recently
[21:19] <technomensch> fair enough.....
[21:19] <technomensch> however, along those same lines.......
[21:19] <mdke> although we could think about getting rid of them, as a separate discussion :)
[21:20] <mdke> they cause a hell of a lot of confusion
[21:20] <little> The very first link on https://wiki.kubuntu.org/ is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/
[21:20] <technomensch> I motion that we bring up the proposal
[21:20] <mdke> little: yes, that's to clarify that wiki.kubuntu.org isn't for documentation
[21:20] <little> My question is whether Kubuntu could somehow be (somewhat prominently) mentioned near the top of the page so a Kubuntu user wouldn't think they'd gone to the wrong page?
[21:20] <mdke> little: on which site?
[21:20] <technomensch> pause....
[21:20] <little> I've been using Kubuntu for a year and a half, so I'm not confused, but my concern is that a new user would think they got sent to the wrong place.
[21:21] <little> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/
[21:21] <technomensch> I would like to propose asking them to have a full-on redirect from their wiki.kubuntu.org to help.ubuntu.org and then we get a community/Kubuntu section established.....
[21:21] <little> Since that's where *all* documentation is going, maybe a mention of that fact would be good.
[21:21] <mdke> gah
[21:22] <mdke> we are now having two different conversations at the same time
[21:22] <little> A redirect will be confusing without some sort of explanation.
[21:22] <mdke> let's do little's first
[21:22] <technomensch> okkie
[21:22]  * little comforts technomensch
[21:22] <technomensch> well, this kinda leads into my next discussion
[21:22] <mdke> don't start it yet, please
[21:22] <mdke> let's finish these two
[21:23] <technomensch> okkie
[21:23] <mdke> so if there is an organised set of kubuntu documentation on help.ubuntu.com/community, and if the Kubuntu comunity wants to use it as their documentation site, then I don't see a problem to adding a link
[21:23] <mdke> but at the moment, I don't think either of those things are true, or am I wrong?
[21:23] <technomensch> little, you're the kubuntu user here
[21:23] <little> There are some Kubuntu-specific documents already in place on the Ubuntu wiki.
[21:23] <mdke> yes, in a sporadic sort of way
[21:23] <technomensch> are they under a section devoted to kubuntu or spread out?
[21:23] <little> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UserDocumentation?action=fullsearch&context=180&value=kubuntu&titlesearch=Titles
[21:24] <little> They're spread out, but I'd be happy to help with that. (:
[21:24] <mdke> let's think about this
[21:24] <mdke> is it actually helpful to have Kubuntu documentation on the same site?
[21:24]  * little didn't write any of them
[21:24] <mdke> or would it be better to have a separate site
[21:24] <technomensch> how much of it is specific for kubuntu and cannot be incorporated into the main community docs?
[21:25] <mdke> there are obvious advantages and disadvantages to both
[21:25] <little> Well, there was a separate site - or at least there seemed to be. The thing is that there isn't that much difference between Kubuntu and Ubuntu, so there are few topics that really need specialized documents.
[21:25] <mdke> yeah
[21:25] <mdke> I suppose we could create a section like: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kubuntu and have the main Kubuntu website point at it for documentation
[21:26] <little> My main focus is in letting the new user know that. At this point, there is no mention of that anywhere.
[21:26] <mdke> but... it's a pretty weird url
[21:26] <mdke> and it would look odd, unless we did some theming magic like with wiki.ubuntu.com
[21:27] <little> The other issue (just to muddy the waters a bit) is that a Kubuntu user might not need Kubuntu-specific help, so having them sent to the main Ubuntu wiki page is still a good idea, but making them feel welcome is the idea. (:
[21:27] <technomensch> to be honest Matt, that was something I was thinking about and the exact thing I was about to suggest.  then, and I know I'm getting ahead of myself, we can have community/Edubuntu, community/Xubuntu, community/Gobuntu, etc.....
[21:27] <technomensch> get everything together and organized
[21:27] <technomensch> I know....crazy and insane
[21:27] <mdke> I wonder if it would be technically possible to create a help.kubuntu.org and have it point at help.ubuntu.com/community/Kubuntu but with a different theme
[21:27] <technomensch> I like it
[21:27] <technomensch> I like that idea a lot
[21:28] <little> You're already on the way to having that. My suggestion is to alter https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ so that at the top of the page, it's made known to users that *all* derivatives of Ubuntu can find documentation here.
[21:28] <technomensch> well, little, I actually kinda went a little overboard when I redid that page a few weeks back
[21:28] <mdke> well, we're not really on the way to having that at all
[21:29] <little> Right now the first thing they see is, "Welcome to the community documentation for Ubuntu - created by users just like you!" and they'll think to themselves, "But I don't USE Ubuntu!"
[21:29] <mdke> help.ubuntu.com doesn't have a kubuntu theme, or a kubuntu url redirect
[21:29] <mdke> little: right, so the problem is that they end up there in the first place...
[21:29] <little> But it could pretty easily get some icons near the top, or a mention of the other derivatives.
[21:30] <little> mdke: No, that's not a problem. They belong there. The problem is they don't know it. (:
[21:30] <little> A new user may think they got sent to that page by mistake, and leave.
[21:31] <mdke> I disagree, they shouldn't be sent to the page at all
[21:31] <mdke> they should get sent to a page with Kubuntu documentation
[21:31] <mdke> let's see how xubuntu does it - http://xubuntu.org/help
[21:32] <mdke> only the first link is really documentation, at it points at a genuine xubuntu document: https://help.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/desktopguide/C/index.html
[21:32] <mdke> s/at/and
[21:32] <mdke> hmm
[21:33] <little> Pretend you're brand new and you just got a shiny copy of Kubuntu and want to look up some stuff on the wiki. Then do it, and when you end up at the Ubuntu page, imagine what you might think if you didn't know Ubuntu even existed and you knew you were using Kubuntu. Wouldn't you be a bit confused?
[21:34] <mdke> little: yeah. I just disagree with you about the cause
[21:34] <mdke> the problem is that I shouldn't be ending up at the Ubuntu page in the first place
[21:34] <little> But you need to end up at the Ubuntu page, since much of its documentation pertains directly to your release.
[21:35] <little> ...derivative...
[21:35] <mdke> so what is wrong with the idea of creating a Kubuntu subpage and ensuring that users end up there?
[21:35] <mdke> if the Kubuntu community wants to maintain wiki documentation, that's the easiest way to do it
[21:36] <little> I suppose that would work, as long as it had a link to https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ with an explanation that much of the documentation works for all derivatives.
[21:37] <little> And while I've got your ear, the Documentation tab at the top right of https://wiki.kubuntu.org/ is broken.
[21:37] <little> I filed a bug report, but that might not have been the best way of going about it. (:
[21:37] <mdke> see, the problem is that the help wiki isn't actually written with an eye on kubuntu users at all
[21:37] <mdke> but the kubuntu community could change that by creating a section and maintaining it
[21:38] <mdke> at the moment, there is very little contribution to kubuntu system documentation, let alone maintaining a wiki...
[21:38] <technomensch> the thing to remember is, we don't run the kubuntu docs...they have their own community.
[21:38] <little> Probably because it's all kind of confusing. But order will come out of chaos. (:
[21:39] <mdke> little: well, it's really a lack of manpower
[21:39] <little> Yeah, I got pointed here when I headed down the Kubuntu documentation road a couple of days ago. Even the page template sends you to the Ubuntu Wiki and tells you not to create pages there any more.
[21:39] <mdke> the kubuntu system documentation has had 20 commits in this release cycle
[21:39]  * little is new manpowere. (:
[21:39] <mdke> little: that's good! Welcome.
[21:39] <mdke> so, nixternal and jjesse are currently the only two point contributing to kubuntu system documentation
[21:39] <little> Thanks! But I've been spending my time on the Ubuntu wiki since I thought that's what we were supposed to do <blush>.
[21:39] <mdke> the system documentation unfortunately isn't published online yet
[21:40] <mdke> if you would be interested in working with them to create a kubuntu resource at help.ubuntu.com/community/Kubuntu then I think that would be great
[21:40] <technomensch> agreed
[21:40] <mdke> then, we can fix the Documentation tab on the website, to point at that
[21:40] <little> I would, and I'd love to organize what they already have. That's what I was picking technomensch's brain about before you came in. (:
[21:41] <little> Is there a way to make an existing page a child of a new page?
[21:41] <mdke> sure, you rename it
[21:41] <technomensch> we never came up with a "rename" tag
[21:41] <mdke> but renaming is a bit restricted on the help wiki
[21:42] <little> Yeah, outsiders don't have that power.
[21:42] <mdke> because it can have consequences
[21:42] <mdke> little: have you read through https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide already?
[21:42] <little> Right, since everything is inter-linked by name.
[21:42]  * mdke nods
[21:43] <little> Yep, and a few other pages. There are a bunch of pages that help with the wiki. Some of the instructions for the finer arts (like centering tables <wink at technomensch>) are a bit tough to understand, though.
[21:43] <mdke> yeah, that's internal Moin documentation
[21:44] <little> Frightening stuff. (:
[21:44] <technomensch> speaking of which, those moinmoin docs come up in searches they shouldn't be causing more confusion
[21:44] <mdke> but WikiGuide should be enough for most contribution
[21:44] <mdke> technomensch: yeah, I saw your post about that. We should probably remove most of those
[21:44] <technomensch> that would be most appreciated.  thanks.
[21:45] <mdke> it's another one for the sysadmins, I'm afraid
[21:45] <technomensch> fun fun
[21:45] <technomensch> would it cause confusion if we made up an additional wikiguide type page to help users
[21:45] <mdke> little: you can poke me about renaming
[21:45] <technomensch> example........
[21:46] <little> Ooooh, how do I do that?
[21:46] <mdke> little: you go "mdke: please rename X to Y"
[21:46] <technomensch> the centering of tables little was talking about...I found out how to do that by rummaging through other people's cold
[21:46] <little> LOL
[21:46] <little> technomensch: And I've now happily stolen your technique. (:
[21:46] <mdke> it's not in HelpOnTables?
[21:46] <little> Kind of...
[21:47] <technomensch> not centering the actual table, but the text inside the cells
[21:47] <mdke> it's not in HelpOnTables?
[21:47] <technomensch> only how to center the text within the cell
[21:47] <little> Even that ended up a bit difficult to understand. I had to get creative to accomplish it in the header row of the table, but I got it working.
[21:47] <mdke> oh, sorry
[21:48] <mdke> can you guys edit HelpOnTables?
[21:48] <technomensch> no
[21:48] <little> You can use <:> to center text in any but the header rows, but you have to do it differently in the header row.
[21:48] <technomensch> it's immutable
[21:48] <mdke> I seem to be able to
[21:48] <technomensch> mdke= admin access.  even with wiki team access, I can't
[21:48] <mdke> hmm.
[21:48] <technomensch> am I on the editor's group to rename and delete from help.?
[21:49] <little> Yes, it says Log in to edit. Hmmm
[21:49] <technomensch> if so, then I'll recheck
[21:49] <technomensch> little, I am logged in
[21:49] <little> I'm about to be.
[21:49] <technomensch> it won't matter. the page is immutable because it's built into the moinmoin code.  only high level access can edit them
[21:50] <little> Nope, now it says immutable page.
[21:50] <technomensch> <<scratches head>> I think I just said that
[21:50] <mdke> technomensch: no, I'll add you
[21:50] <technomensch> gratze
[21:50] <mdke> technomensch: you're familiar with when to add a redirect for a page you are renaming, yeah?
[21:51] <technomensch> yea, but I wouldn't do any renaming without running it through the mailing list first
[21:51] <mdke> technomensch: that's ok, you've done enough work to rename and delete pages yourself, as long as you are conservative about it - don't delete pages unless you're sure they are totally useless
[21:51] <technomensch> I've run my own wiki and know how renaming pages can really break stuff up
[21:52] <technomensch> which brings up the actual category deletion page.
[21:52] <technomensch> and if the tagging has been done, instead of redirecting, that may need to be removed
[21:52] <technomensch> and it looks like there are no pages linking back to it
[21:53] <mdke> ok, you're added
[21:53] <mdke> well, there was one page on CategoryDeletion which I was unsure about
[21:53] <technomensch> logging out and logging back in to see see if I can now edit helpontables
[21:54] <technomensch> which page?
[21:55] <technomensch> matt, sorry.  doesn't look like the Editors Group can edit the HelpOn pages.........
[21:55] <mdke> it was https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SoftwarePackagingFormats but it has a tag on it already, so I've now deleted CategoryDeletion
[21:55] <mdke> technomensch: no, I'm not surprised. I suspect that is some superadmin thing
[21:56] <mdke> probably hardcoded into the wiki configuration
[21:56] <technomensch> that was my thinkiing
[21:56] <little> I tagged ChoosingSecurePassword for deletion. I hope that's okay.
[21:56] <technomensch> we can always create our own page of wiki edit code if we had to
[21:57] <technomensch> Matt, I'll fix the /ToDo list to correspond with your deleting of the categorydeletion
[21:57] <mdke> ok, I'm just going through the pages which refer to it now
[21:58] <technomensch> oh, you are?
[21:58] <technomensch> well I'll fix the todo list accordingly
[21:59] <mdke> thanks
[22:00] <mdke> little: yes, that makes sense, thanks
[22:01] <Rocket2DMn> categorydeletion goes byebye
[22:02] <Rocket2DMn> uh oh technomensch we conflicted on wikitodo
[22:02] <little> mdke: The other page mentioned is really well written and thorough.
[22:02] <technomensch> I just noticed that....
[22:02] <Rocket2DMn> let me see if i can roll it back
[22:02] <technomensch> I tried and it wouldn't let me
[22:02] <mdke> little: so, if you'd like to help out with the kubuntu onboard documentation too, I'm sure that would come in really handy.
[22:02] <Rocket2DMn> nope doesnt let me revert
[22:02] <mdke> technomensch: you should be able to revert now, no?
[22:03] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, negative
[22:03] <little> mdke: I'm planning on it. I currently have the 14 existing Kubuntu pages open and am looking to see which of them are out of date, etc.
[22:03] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: I mean technomensch
[22:03] <mdke> little: awesome!
[22:03] <Rocket2DMn> oh did you give him extra access?
[22:03] <little> Any plans on making more of these: <<Include(Software/804Template)>> for the other releases?
[22:03] <technomensch> hold on....
[22:04] <mdke> little: we've developed a macro called <<ReleaseVersion>> which does this.
[22:04] <mdke> little: I expect it to be added to the help wiki next week, stay tuned to the mailing list for more info
[22:04] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: yeah
[22:04] <little> Excellent!
[22:04] <Rocket2DMn> ah ok
[22:05] <mdke> little: it will look like this - http://doc.ubuntu.com/~mdke/macros.png
[22:05] <technomensch> Revision 112 as of 2008-09-27 21:00:09
[22:05] <technomensch> You are not allowed to revert this page!
[22:05] <Rocket2DMn> the problem with reverting came up a few months ago mdke , i thought normal users were supposed to revert, but we still cant
[22:05] <mdke> technomensch: can you try deleting something?
[22:05] <little> mdke: Very nice! And we'll be able to specify which versions a page is aimed at?
[22:05] <technomensch> I willl copy the code for the todo list afirst
[22:05] <mdke> little: yeah
[22:06] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: yeah we need to sort that out
[22:06] <technomensch> unless FF has major caching issues right now, renmae and delete are greyed out...trying IE
[22:06] <mdke> damn
[22:06] <little> If you don't mind, if I come across any version-specific pages in the interim, I'll put a ##note at the top of the code with the version info so it will be easy to spot when adding the tags.
[22:07] <technomensch> Rocket, can you fix the todo manually in the meantime while matt and I sort this out
[22:07] <Rocket2DMn> yeah
[22:08] <Rocket2DMn> ill revert to my version
[22:08] <technomensch> ::nod::
[22:08] <mdke> technomensch: the wiki is using the wrong username for you. It says ubuntu-doc-technomensch instead of marc-kaplan
[22:09] <technomensch> I tried renaming it in launchpad, that might be what's causing the conflict
[22:09] <technomensch> it seems to be 2 different ids
[22:09] <mdke> the wiki is a bit broken on this specific issue
[22:09] <mdke> it doesn't pick up renamed ids
[22:09] <mdke> I've reported it already
[22:09] <technomensch> ok, so I need to go to launchpad and revert my id?
[22:09] <mdke> let's use ubuntu-doc-technomensch for now, I'll amend the rights
[22:09] <mdke> no, no
[22:09] <technomensch> :::not moving:::
[22:10] <mdke> ok, now try
[22:10] <technomensch> log out first?
[22:10] <Rocket2DMn> is there a listing somewhere of the users who have elevated access levels?
[22:11] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: EditorGroup and AdminGroup
[22:11] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, "You are not allowed to view this page."
[22:11] <mdke> ah
[22:12] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: I'm happy to add you to EditorGroup too, if you'll also agree to rename and delete pages sparingly, only when necessary, and being careful to leave redirects if appropriate
[22:12] <technomensch> on help. or wiki. ?
[22:12] <mdke> help
[22:12] <Rocket2DMn> sure mdke
[22:13] <mdke> done
[22:13] <Rocket2DMn> on a side note, is it possible to grant privileges to only part of the wiki (i'd like to be able to have delete capability on the Beginners Team area of the team wiki)
[22:13] <Rocket2DMn> thanks mdke
[22:13] <technomensch> matt, as I was tell rocket, the reason I had changed my name was because I had a brainfart and thought I would have to use that as my openid for everywhere that allows openid instead of creating a second one
[22:14] <technomensch> rocket, I think the ediorgroup group gives you that access
[22:14] <technomensch> delete any page
[22:14] <technomensch> that is not immutable
[22:14] <technomensch> try to log out and log in
[22:14] <technomensch> and then try to delete the page you need to
[22:15] <Rocket2DMn> technomensch, yeah, im talking about the Team wiki, not the Help wiki
[22:15] <technomensch> I think it's the same rights for both
[22:15] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: everyone has access to delete pages on the team wiki, no?
[22:15] <Rocket2DMn> really? ive never tried
[22:15] <mdke> think so, we only have access control on the help wiki
[22:15] <mdke> team wiki is open
[22:16] <Rocket2DMn> ah, very well then.  weve almost finished our move to the team wiki, so we dont have any rogue pages yet to test
[22:16] <technomensch> speaking of which, matt how much is left on moving the docs team wiki articles to the team wiki?
[22:17] <technomensch> want me to help or are you doing that?
[22:17] <mdke> i'm still a bit hesitant for some reason
[22:17] <technomensch> well, we can always copy the articles and don't have to fully move it YET
[22:17] <mdke> I keep thinking about potential reasons not to. On balance I think we should move them, but I keep hesitating
[22:18] <mdke> I'll do it, promise :)
[22:18] <technomensch> I'll do it if you don't want to
[22:18] <Rocket2DMn> hehe, it is a bit of a pain to move pages
[22:18] <mdke> heh
[22:18] <technomensch> btw, matt, remember a few weeks back when I created a draft revision for the team wiki home page?
[22:19] <Rocket2DMn> alright, i just got back from the gym, so i need to clean up, ill bbiab.  thanks for the promotion mdke , let me know if there is anything else you need me to do
[22:19] <technomensch> good to see ya rocket.
[22:19] <Rocket2DMn> you too marc
[22:29] <mdke> technomensch: sure yes
[22:38] <technomensch> sworry, about that...was afk.   before I mention what I've been doing, I realized soemthing
[22:39] <technomensch> if we can't get in to fix the redirects, then it will be harder to move our docs team docs over to the team wiki unless the redirects get morevd
[22:39] <technomensch> right?
[22:40] <Rocket2DMn> yeah, how DO we get a redirected page to show?
[22:40] <technomensch> we were talking about that earlier.  we think it might be a bug in the upgraded version
[22:41] <Rocket2DMn> i mean i love the speed of the redirect, but we do need access...
[22:41] <Rocket2DMn> did you ask matthew technomensch ?
[22:41] <technomensch> (4:12:01 PM) Matt (mdke): whoosh
[22:41] <technomensch> (4:12:09 PM) Matt (mdke): that's some kind of weird hardcoded redirect
[22:42] <technomensch> 4:12:42 PM) Matt (mdke): that was done when they did the wiki upgrade, but it's totally unnecessary.
[22:42] <technomensch> as of right now, it looks like we might be in holding till he can get with the admins.....if I'm right
[22:43] <Rocket2DMn> hmm which upgrade was that?
[22:44] <Rocket2DMn> there was a major moin upgrade a few months ago, but there may have been some smaller upgrades more recently
[22:45] <technomensch> we'll have to wait till matt comes back to the chat room.  I know he's around somewhere
[22:45] <technomensch> I see he's still on
[22:48] <mdke> technomensch: there are two types of redirects
[22:48] <mdke> one is the regular type (#REDIRECT or #REFRESH) which we can edit
[22:48] <mdke> the other is the hardcoded one by which people's launchpad ID point to their WikiName
[22:48] <technomensch> AH
[22:48] <mdke> the latter doesn't affect moving new pages
[22:49] <mdke> it was a one-off thing introduced by the upgrade to openid
[22:49] <technomensch> then, rocket, to answer your question=  add ?action=edit to the page name
[22:49] <technomensch> not add ?show
[22:49] <technomensch> gotcha
[22:49] <Rocket2DMn> technomensch, i tried that one...
[22:49] <mdke> the easiest way is to visit the page
[22:50] <mdke> then you see the message at the top that says "Redirected from X"
[22:50] <mdke> click on that, and you should be able to view and edit the redirecting page normally
[22:50] <technomensch> that's the way it works in mediawiki
[22:50] <Rocket2DMn> mdke, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/nhandler -> needs to have the redirect removed
[22:50] <Rocket2DMn> but none of those methods work
[22:50] <technomensch> that's different
[22:50] <mdke> Rocket2DMn: that's one of the hardcoded redirects
[22:51] <technomensch> that's tied to the openid
[22:51] <Rocket2DMn> thats confusing, b/c the LP profile being used is nhandler
[22:51] <technomensch> I already mentioned it to him and he's giong to submit getting that redirect removed
[22:52] <Rocket2DMn> maybe he has a similar issue as you technomensch , with a different wiki login than LP
[22:52] <mdke> not exactly the same issue
[22:52] <Rocket2DMn> =/
[22:52] <mdke> but it is a different bug introduced by the same code
[22:54] <mdke> why does he want the redirect removed, by the way?
[22:55] <Rocket2DMn> preference i guess
[22:55] <Rocket2DMn> nhandler is the name he uses everything with ubuntu
[22:55] <Rocket2DMn> everywhere*
[22:56] <technomensch> anyway, Matt, as I was about to say earlier, about the Wiki Team home page
[22:57] <technomensch> I've been playing around with it and was wondering what you might think of what I've done: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Home/PageDiscussion
[22:57] <technomensch> still requires some more work
[23:00] <mdke> technomensch: I think I still have the same comment as last time really. The current page is rather simpler and easier to parse, in my opinion. Don't forget that page isn't really intended to be easy to follow, it's for developers and contributors to quickly find the right page
[23:00] <mdke> technomensch: but, since we don't take care of the team wiki, it's really an issue for the wider community, in particular the development team
[23:01] <mdke> so you could discuss it with them
[23:01] <technomensch> kk
[23:01] <mdke> I like the tables on your page though, no so much the buttons
[23:02] <mdke> s/no/not
[23:02] <technomensch> I kinda liked the look of the marketing team's home page and wanted to go for their look
[23:03] <mdke> consistency going down the page in terms of formatting is important, so if each section had those tables, then it would probably look cleaner
[23:03] <mdke> at the moment, some sections have buttons and others have tables
[23:03] <technomensch> I had tables originally if you look at the page history before I started yesterday.
[23:04] <technomensch> I agree that it has to be consistent throughout the page.  it's still a work in progress
[23:04] <mdke> yeah, I like that look more, especially if the tables were all the same size
[23:04] <technomensch> the original one?
[23:04] <mdke> you could probably do it in a big table split into sections actually
[23:05] <technomensch> ok, I'll  play around with it
[23:05] <mdke> technomensch: I was looking at revision 3
[23:05] <technomensch> ok, thanks.  gtk.  if nothing else, this gave me an education in using images and manipulating tables
[23:05] <mdke> although, I don't see too much wrong with the current homepage
[23:06] <mdke> gtg for now, thanks for the chats
[23:06] <technomensch> kkk
[23:06] <technomensch> ta
[23:06] <technomensch> I gotta go eat too
[23:06] <technomensch> lata