[00:15] <_MMA_> kwwii: Really? Why?
[00:56] <Cimi> kwwii, ping
[01:24] <kwwii> erm, yeah, he should have filed a bug....oh well
[01:25] <kwwii> _MMA_: because it makes it much easier to work on
[01:25] <kwwii> Cimi: pong
[01:31] <_MMA_> kwwii: Ill talk to you tomorrow about it.
[01:31] <_MMA_> err... My tomorrow. :)
[01:32] <DannyKing> What time is it over there, _MMA_?
[01:34] <kwwii> about 8:30pm I would guess
[01:34] <kwwii> for losers in the land of a the fee and the slave
[01:34] <kwwii> :p
[01:36] <DannyKing> hehe
[01:36] <DannyKing> 7 hours ahead of me
[01:37] <DanaG> Sat Sep 27 17:37:14 PDT 2008
[01:38] <DannyKing> oops, 19 hours ahead actually
[01:39] <kwwii> erm, that is not possible :-)
[01:40]  * DannyKing sighs. It's 1:30am here and he is clearly too tired to think in 12s ;)
[01:40] <kwwii> lol
[01:40] <kwwii> so you are in the UK?
[01:40] <DannyKing> Yep, somewhere in the middle
[01:40] <DannyKing> Yourself?
[01:40] <DannyKing> Let me guess, South Africa?
[01:40] <kwwii> German-land
[01:40] <DannyKing> ahh far off :)
[01:41] <DannyKing> Your English is excellent
[01:41] <kwwii> same time zone though :-)
[01:41] <kwwii> well, I's to being an American
[01:41] <DannyKing> heh, oh that's cheating.
[01:41] <kwwii> sssshhhhh, don't tell the others
[01:41] <DannyKing> lol.
[01:42] <kwwii> I doubt there are many germans named Kenneth ;-)
[01:42] <kwwii> kinda hard for them so say
[01:42] <DannyKing> true!
[01:43] <DannyKing> You work for Canonical right?
[01:43] <kwwii> as a test I make them say my name three times fast
[01:43] <DannyKing> heh
[01:43] <kwwii> yes, I have the extreme pleasure of being employed by Canonical
[01:44] <DannyKing> I was going to ask how it was but no need!
[01:44] <DannyKing> Sounds like a dream job from what I've read on the list :)
[01:44] <kwwii> I am a night of the canonical round table, so to speak
[01:44] <kwwii> erm, knight :p
[01:44] <kwwii> lol, there goes my english
[01:44] <DannyKing> Have you ever met God, then? (Mr. Shuttleworth)
[01:44] <DannyKing> Use the 1:30am excuse, worked for me.
[01:45] <DannyKing> There was a prime time news story on him here a few weeks ago
[01:46] <kwwii> lol, have I ever met him :-)
[01:46] <kwwii> yes, I meet him quite often
[01:46] <kwwii> every couple of months at the least
[01:47] <DannyKing> Do you have a special handshake for millionaires in that case? ;)
[01:47] <kwwii> if I was a knight that would imply that I earn all the money while I subject others to my military control and make them work for me
[01:47] <kwwii> good idea...we could call it the "artwork community"
[01:47] <DannyKing> lol, well - the community enjoys it.
[01:48] <kwwii> you know the funny thing about making your hobby your job?
[01:48] <kwwii> you gotta find a new hobby
[01:48] <DannyKing> ha, I never thought about that
[01:49] <DannyKing> Did you find one?
[01:49] <kwwii> of course work is no fun, no matter what you do...otherwise they wouldn't pay you for it, and they would call it "fun"
[01:49] <kwwii> yepp, I play in a band again
[01:49] <kwwii> :-)
[01:50] <DannyKing> Oh cool, what sort of band?
[01:50]  * DannyKing is a bassist
[01:50] <kwwii> really old pre-punk stuff
[01:50] <DannyKing> cool.
[01:50] <kwwii> yeah, I am really old
[01:51] <DannyKing> Hah don't worry about it, I listen to funk and that's older
[01:51] <kwwii> half the time people think we write all our own music when the half of it is covers they have never heard
[01:52] <kwwii> jono put it best when he said "well, at least it is not that shite american punk"
[01:52] <_MMA_> Jesus. You guys are up late.
[01:52] <DannyKing> heh
[01:52] <DannyKing> _MMA_:  Yeah, I don't know why either. I keep going to sleep at silly times
[01:52] <DannyKing> 5am yesterday :\
[01:53] <_MMA_> Ouch.
[01:53] <DannyKing> I work better in the early hours I guess
[01:53] <kwwii> _MMA_: yepp, and I promised the little lady pancakes in the morning
[01:53] <DannyKing> Luckily I can sleep in 'till late since I'm technically on holiday
[01:53] <_MMA_> And btw, Shuttleworth ain't nobody. Puts his pants on the same way as you. ;)
[01:53] <kwwii> oh, working from home is the perfect answer to the question of why do we get up in the morning
[01:54]  * _MMA_ gets up at 7am regardless because of the rugrats.
[01:54] <kwwii> yepp....he's real people, like you and me
[01:54] <kwwii> _MMA_: I spent the evening working on the folder
[01:55] <DannyKing> I don't find that hard to believe... he funds the best distro after all :)
[01:55] <kwwii> _MMA_: but nothing much came out of it, other than another attempt at a different angle which didn't work
[01:55] <DannyKing> kwwii: what angle were you thinking of using?
[01:55] <DannyKing> Did you see the post on the list?
[01:55] <kwwii> DannyKing: nope, I have been avoiding email all day
[01:55] <DannyKing> _MMA_: did an official announcement of breathe
[01:56] <kwwii> email=evil
[01:56] <kwwii> on the weekdays I get paid to read it :-)
[01:56] <DannyKing> haha
[01:57] <kwwii> to some extent, "staying in touch" and "communication" is over-rated if you ask me :p
[01:59] <kwwii> DannyKing: have you ever hung out around the oxygen channel?
[01:59] <DannyKing> nope, I've only recently started joining freenode channels
[02:00] <DannyKing> Been lurking in here and in #inkscape for a week or so
[02:00] <kwwii> cool, I just read your email to the list
[02:00] <_MMA_> kwwii: Keep the angle for now. Refine it with Marks likes in mind.
[02:00] <kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, and I was playing around with something new which simply didn't work
[02:01] <kwwii> _MMA_: I bet I have drawn 50 folders in my life and in the end the truth is, that there are only a few perspectives that work
[02:01] <_MMA_> kwwii: But I don't wanna keep ya talking about it now. Its late.
[02:01] <DanaG> What angle?
[02:02] <kwwii> I was trying a frontal 3D with the folder somewhat open
[02:02] <DanaG> Aah.  As long as it's not slanty like Fedora's icons...
[02:02] <_MMA_> DanaG: Why? What would you do?
[02:02]  * DannyKing listens
[02:03] <kwwii> the problem is that the different sizes will look quite different unless you do something like that
[02:03]  * DanaG digs up a screenshot:
[02:03] <_MMA_> DanaG: Would you stop using Ubuntu over a folder icon? Or would you make a submission?
[02:04] <kwwii> make things isographic (I think that is the right word)
[02:04] <kwwii> or frontal 2D
[02:04] <DanaG> https://fedorahosted.org/bluecurve/
[02:04] <DanaG> I find it odd if I have flat menus... with slanty icons.
[02:04] <_MMA_> kwwii: We agreed today to use a different perspective at smaller sizes where needed.
[02:04] <DanaG> Plus, when I tried Fedora, I ended up with mixed styles within the same menu.  :(
[02:05] <kwwii> _MMA_: sure, you have to or it won't work at all
[02:06] <kwwii> trust me, three years ago we tested a lot of different angles when we made the oxygen folders
[02:06] <DannyKing> kwwii: So do you suggest a flat style for all folders?
[02:07] <kwwii> and things can change over time, the point is to get something that explains the style, then you can tweak parts
[02:07] <kwwii> DannyKing: no, but that simply works best, to be honest
[02:07] <_MMA_> kwwii: Thats why for now, I don't plan on straying to far from Oxygen. Just fixing where needed. Im sure you'll help point out issues. :)
[02:07] <kwwii> we could do something like more and more rotation the bigger it is
[02:07] <DanaG> Then you have Vista... which points the icons AWAY from the user.
[02:07] <DanaG> =þ
[02:08] <kwwii> the thing is, at small sizes the best angles are 33 and 45
[02:08] <kwwii> and circles are bad on the outside (not sure why I added that)
[02:08] <_MMA_> kwwii: Just evolve KenV's icon when you have time. I think it's the best thing we got atm.
[02:09] <kwwii> _MMA_: well, that is part of the issue
[02:09] <_MMA_> SOmething we can look at for a bit. Im sure there will be more changes with time.
[02:09] <kwwii> his icon is not rastered at all, so I end up redrawing it now matter what
[02:09] <_MMA_> huh?
[02:09] <kwwii> at 256 it doesn't matter but at 64 and below it does
[02:09] <kwwii> it is just scaled randomly, not everything is in pixel values
[02:10] <kwwii> that is typical of the artwork of uninformed desktop designers :-)
[02:10] <_MMA_> Ill have to see exactly what you mean over Skype later.
[02:11] <_MMA_> But for sure, what I put in the SVG on the wiki was everything he drew. 48px was scaled from 256.
[02:11] <_MMA_> But below wasn't.
[02:12] <kwwii> but the objects and lines (in the big version at least) do not have points that lie on even numbers
[02:13] <_MMA_> Then we'll just have to move it around a bit. :)
[02:14] <_MMA_> What you're talking about might actually be my fault. The alignment anyway.
[02:14] <kwwii> learn the power of the raster force and sharper and more understandable will the world of exported graphics be, my young padawan
[02:14] <DannyKing> even numbered what, sorry?
[02:15] <kwwii> DannyKing: make sure the nodes of objects are snapped to a pixel grid
[02:15] <DannyKing> Okay - I didn't know that caused issues
[02:16] <_MMA_> kwwii: I await the folder done right from you for me to use as a guide. ;)
[02:16] <kwwii> and make sure lines lie inside the pixel borders
[02:16] <DannyKing> Is that because there are issues if a line is 1.5px wide, for example?
[02:16] <kwwii> _MMA_: leck mich
[02:17] <_MMA_> kwwii: It's not an insult if the recipient doesn't get it. ;)
[02:17] <kwwii> DannyKing: in svg a 1 pixel line will have half the line outside the object and one inside
[02:17] <kwwii> erm, half inside
[02:17] <kwwii> DannyKing: which, in my mind sucks
[02:17] <kwwii> I was used to illustrator
[02:17] <DannyKing> Understood
[02:18] <kwwii> so if you have an object with a half transparent fill and half-transparent line it does funky things you might not want
[02:18] <kwwii> and things don't raster as well, if you look at tango, they use lines a lot
[02:18] <kwwii> and they have simple icons so it works
[02:19] <kwwii> but with photrealistic stuff you stay away from lines, mainly
[02:19] <kwwii> like every rule, that gets broken a lot
[02:19] <kwwii> it is like cheating on a test
[02:19] <kwwii> :-)
[02:19] <DannyKing> lines being strokes in Inkscape?
[02:19] <_MMA_> kwwii: I'm sure all your glorious Oxygen experience will be a brilliant guidepost for us to follow.
[02:20] <kwwii> DannyKing: yes, exactly
[02:20] <DannyKing> Ah okay
[02:20] <DannyKing> I'll remember that thanks :)
[02:20] <kwwii> _MMA_: like I said, leck mich
[02:20] <kwwii> _MMA_: when you figure that out, let me know
[02:20] <kwwii> :p
[02:20] <DannyKing> Bah, I'm making silly mistakes with my code. I'm going to bed
[02:20] <DannyKing> Good night all
[02:21] <kwwii> DannyKing: if you are serious about making icons, I can help
[02:21] <DannyKing> I'm serious in a hobbist kind of way, yes :)
[02:21] <kwwii> so stay in touch
[02:21] <kwwii> :-)
[02:21] <_MMA_> kwwii: I know what it means. You've said it a 100 times.
[02:21] <DannyKing> Thanks, I will
[02:22] <_MMA_> kwwii: Read back today. Danny has been quite active and hopefully will be a great contributor.
[02:22] <kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, I followed the talk today but didn't have time to chat
[02:22] <_MMA_> kwwii: And with that, my wife would like to "leck mich". :P
[02:22] <kwwii> my wife was pissy that I never do anything around the house
[02:23] <kwwii> lol
[02:23] <_MMA_> Get some rest man. :)
[02:23] <kwwii> dude, the whole saying is "leck mich am Arsch"
[02:23] <kwwii> so, lick my asshole
[02:23] <_MMA_> Yes. I know.
[02:23] <kwwii> but your wife sounds kinky
[02:23] <_MMA_> Da
[02:23] <_MMA_> Si
[02:23] <kwwii> yeah, time for sleep
[02:23] <kwwii> see you soon
[02:23] <_MMA_> Pick you "yes". :)
[02:23] <_MMA_> Night.
[02:24] <kwwii> all your base are belong to us or whatever
[08:51] <thorwil> bonjour nand
[12:50] <DannyKing> Hello
[13:23] <kwwii> hi DannyKing
[13:32] <DannyKing> Hello, sorry, went for coffee
[13:37]  * _MMA_ waves but can't hang out. I'll be playing Lego Batman with the kids. :P I might be around later.
[13:37] <DannyKing> :)
[13:52]  * kwwii watches formula one racing in singapore
[14:10] <rsc-> is it possible to override the border_width of Gtk.VBox on a gtkrc?
[14:10] <rsc-> :/
[14:27] <darkmatter> rsc-_: depends on the VBox. It's also dependent on whether or not the application developer is a HIG fascist :P
[14:32] <darkmatter> and unfortunately I wasn't joking. the results aren't exactly consistent
[15:50] <thorwil> hello!
[15:57] <thorwil> _MMA_: sorry about yesterday, would have handled that differently but i was writing an email and about to log-off
[15:59] <DannyKing> hi thorwil
[16:00]  * thorwil waves
[16:12] <thorwil> hi rsc-
[16:14] <rsc-> hola, thorwil
[16:14] <rsc-> anything new?
[16:15] <thorwil> rsc-: what do you think about changing the briefing of kyudo to make it all about video applications?
[16:16] <rsc-> what?
[16:16] <rsc-> is this in reference to the off-topic discussions on the ML?
[16:16] <thorwil> yep
[16:16] <rsc-> you've gotta be kidding, right
[16:17] <thorwil> the mailing list is so terrible useful
[16:17] <rsc-> er... terribly useful, you mean? or am I missing an in-joke?
[16:17] <rsc-> hehe
[16:17] <thorwil> rsc-: at the moment i fell that i should only adress you, DannyKing, Cory and Kenneth. Plus dilomo and Ken V if they were around
[16:18] <rsc-> thorwil, and Troy?
[16:18] <thorwil> rsc-: oh, right. but he was wise enough to unsubscribe from the list
[16:19] <rsc-> it'd be quite "elitist" to just adress a few people, but I wouldn't mind
[16:19] <rsc-> 1) people who get it are hard to come by
[16:20] <rsc-> 2) formulating a vision and briefing doesn't require everyone's help, and factoring in *everyone's* inputs may actually be detrimental to the process
[16:22] <rsc-> Kyudo is still ironing out the "higher-level" stuff, i.e., vision, audience, direction, et cetera. wider participation can happen once that's all sorted out
[16:23] <thorwil> rsc-: 1) is so true. on 2) problem is that i don't want to be all alone, as i have to make sure it is not just my personal vision
[16:23] <thorwil> rsc-: but i should stop complaining and get back to be productive :)
[16:25] <rsc-_> oops. I got disconnected after "Kyudo is still ironing out the "higher-level" stuff, i.e., vision, audience, direction, et cetera. wider participation can happen once that's all sorted out"
[16:25] <thorwil> rsc-: 1) is so true. on 2) problem is that i don't want to be all alone, as i have to make sure it is not just my personal vision
[16:25] <thorwil> rsc-: but i should stop complaining and get back to be productive :)
[16:25] <thorwil> was all
[16:26] <_MMA_> Or enjoying you Sunday.
[16:26] <_MMA_> :P
[16:26] <_MMA_> *your
[16:26] <thorwil> _MMA_: already had a long cycling tour and cake! ;p
[16:26] <_MMA_> :)
[16:27]  * _MMA_ is mostly hanging out with the family. Just stopped to look at email.
[16:27] <_MMA_> bbl
[16:29] <Borzo> so... what can one do to help?
[16:30] <rsc-_> you can contribute to the Breathe icon set.
[16:30] <thorwil> Borzo: now that's a good start :) depends on your skills, experience and interest
[16:31] <rsc-_> and eventually Kyudo once it's off it's feet :)
[16:31] <thorwil> Borzo: you may want to tell us a bit about your background
[16:32] <Borzo> my skills... well I am comfortable with GIMP and Inkscape
[16:32]  * Borzo is looking at the /me is looking at the breathe iconset as we speak... are there any guidelines?
[16:32] <Borzo> oops
[16:32] <Borzo> :)
[16:33] <thorwil> Borzo: guidelines are under discussion
[16:33] <Borzo> sorry daughter distracting
[16:33] <rsc-_> no set guidelines for now
[16:33] <rsc-_> it's still at it's infancy.
[16:33] <thorwil> Borzo: are you on the mailing list?
[16:34] <Borzo> thorwil : - yes
[16:34] <Borzo> thorwil: but just started
[16:34] <thorwil> Borzo: the "Breathe - The beginning thread" is all there is, right now
[16:35] <rsc-_> if you know GTK, you can also contribute bugfixes to the Dust theme :P :P
[16:35] <thorwil> Borzo: the templates for the icons contain a set of background colors on which the icon should look good. also includes a palette of colors taken from the human ico set
[16:36] <thorwil> Borzo: but not even lighting and perspective are decided on
[16:38] <Borzo> thorwil: allright, so is there any specific icons with priority?
[16:38] <thorwil> Borzo: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons
[16:38] <Borzo> rsc-_ : no GTK knowlege at this time sorry :)
[16:39] <thorwil> Borzo: it's all plain Oxygen icons to be replaced, except the folder icon. It has been created by Ken V and we are waiting on a revision from ken W :)
[16:40] <Borzo> thorwil : ok
[16:42] <thorwil> Borzo: you should read https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2008-September/008016.html and the next 2
[16:42] <Borzo> thorwil : thanks, will do
[16:43] <thorwil> Borzo: oh, and did you see the Kyudo announcement, or did you come in later?
[16:45] <rsc-__> haha, this is cute. people are making derivatives of the Dust idea.
[16:45] <Borzo> thorwil: you mean on the list? I have part of the Kyudo thread
[16:45] <rsc-__> http://gnome-look.org/content/show.php/MurrineDust+Colors?content=90410
[16:45] <thorwil> Borzo: it would be nice if you would read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines
[16:45] <Borzo> thorwil: I read the parts i got in my e-mail :)
[16:46] <thorwil> Borzo: i know it's a bit much and rather dry, but it should give a good idea about what we are trying to do. any feedback is welcome
[16:47] <thorwil> Borzo: we are also open to contributions on that theoretical level, if you feel comfortable there
[16:48] <Borzo> thorwil: I will read it, please forgive me If I ask a question that has some obvious answer. I may not understand everything 100% as english is not my native language :)
[16:48]  * thorwil sacrifices a scribbled chicken to ease the gods of the network for a better connection for rsc-__ 
[16:48] <rsc-___> yeah. shitty dsl :(
[16:48] <rsc-___> Borzo, that's okay. a lot of the contributors come from different countries
[16:49] <thorwil> Borzo: most here are non-native speakers, me too. questions are necessary :)
[16:50] <Borzo> thorwil : thanks :)
[16:50] <rsc-___> anyone got an opinion on this dust-inspired theme vs. plain-old dust?
[16:50] <rsc-___> http://gnome-look.org/content/preview.php?preview=1&id=90410&file1=90410-1.png&file2=90410-2.png&file3=&name=MurrineDust+Colors&PHPSESSID=b8ce9e430a994ef582db15f3c3312c2f
[16:50] <thorwil> Borzo: contributors from varying nations are a plus, as our audience is all around the world
[16:51] <rsc-___> vs. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/DustTheme?action=AttachFile&do=view&target=dust-0917-screenshot.jpg
[16:51] <thorwil> rsc-___: must be for suse :)
[16:51] <rsc-___> thorwil, haha. why?
[16:51] <thorwil> loud green
[16:52] <thorwil> rsc-___: your scrollbars are better. they started from an older revision?
[16:53] <rsc-___> meh.everyone hates my scrollbars
[16:53] <rsc-___> haha.
[16:54] <rsc-___> i dont think they worked from my theme... maybe they just took the Metacity buttons and worked from there
[16:55]  * DannyKing just got back
[16:56] <thorwil> well, i guess derivatives are a good sign
[16:56] <DannyKing> Can I just clarify, am I right in thinking that Kyundo is intended to be a theme whereas breathe is intended to be an icon set that may be considered for inclusion in Kyundo? Or have I misunderstood?
[16:57] <DannyKing> By theme I mean everything from icons to gtk themes
[16:57] <thorwil> DannyKing: kyudo is about guidelines and a design process with the first goal being a theme
[16:57] <Borzo> I wanted to ask the same question :)
[16:57] <DannyKing> Okay, that's what I was thinking, thanks
[16:58] <DannyKing> thorwil: about above, I'm with you on breathe so don't worry about it being a personal-only project. Although how soon I can start actually contributing artwork I'm unsure about due to starting uni
[16:58] <Borzo> will Kyudo affect the user's web experience aswell?
[16:58] <DannyKing> Borzo: for example?
[16:58] <Borzo> I mean the ubuntu webpage looks
[16:58] <Borzo> will it standarize the whole image of ubuntu?
[16:59] <DannyKing> Ah, no
[16:59] <DannyKing> Canocial decides that, this is just a community project
[16:59] <thorwil> DannyKing: Breathe was started independently, with goals on a different level. but as an icon set is such a huge task, there should only be one
[16:59] <DannyKing> (as in, not much influence)
[16:59] <Borzo> ah ok
[16:59] <DannyKing> thorwil: Okay, I agree. Makes sense
[16:59] <DannyKing> Borzo: at least, that's my understanding. I'm brand new in here
[17:00] <thorwil> DannyKing: the personal-only worry is strictly about kyudo. breathe is _MMA_ baby :)
[17:00] <DannyKing> Ah, understood.
[17:01] <thorwil> Borzo: long term kyudo should influence everything. but to have a chance there, the project has to prove istelf with a theme
[17:01] <Borzo> well, since there is talk about marketing in kyudo, it seems logical for me to have a unified look when looking from a marketing perspective. That's why I asked
[17:02] <thorwil> Borzo: yes. a unified look would be required to have the strongest possible message
[17:03]  * Borzo goes back to reading on Kyudo
[17:04] <DannyKing> So what do you do thorwil, besides working on community artwork?
[17:05]  * DannyKing is a young web developer in the making
[17:05] <thorwil> DannyKing: working a crappy half-day job i don't even want to talk about ;)
[17:05] <DannyKing> heh ok :)
[17:13] <thorwil> is Sebastian Porta here?
[17:16] <Borzo> so all the icons with a "Needs Replaced" tag are to be replaced, am I understanding this correctly?
[17:16] <DannyKing> Yes, what is there currently is not breathe at all, but oxygen - we're using it as inspiration
[17:16] <DannyKing> The folder icon is currently suggested as a possible starting point
[17:16] <Borzo> ok, thanks, just making things clear
[17:17] <DannyKing> Although I'm not 100% with it
[17:17] <DannyKing> Borzo: the current thoughts are to make hyper-realistic icons
[17:17] <Borzo> any reason for that?
[17:17] <Borzo> i see
[17:18] <DannyKing> I don't think it's realistic enough, but that's just my own opinion (I think it's a brilliant icon, dont' get me wrong.)
[17:18] <DannyKing> One idea that was suggested by _MMA_  (he's the leader of the project) which I really like was to use for the paper icon a page torn from a ring binder that has imperfections like any paper on your desk
[17:19] <DannyKing> But all of this is up for discussion on the list, we have no defined /anything/ just yet :p
[17:19] <thorwil> my own problem with the folder icon is thati think it's hard to make other icons match
[17:20] <kwwii> I am going to play with the folder again tonight
[17:20] <DannyKing> Hi kwwii
[17:20] <Borzo> brb
[17:20] <kwwii> hi DannyKing
[17:21]  * DannyKing wants to stress he does like the icon, he just thinks that its style is in contrast with the ideas on the list about style
[17:21] <thorwil> working on a sunday evening, you are hardcore kwwii ;)
[17:21]  * kwwii cooks schnitzel, then works :-)
[17:23] <DannyKing> brb
[17:23] <Borzo> schnitzel == good
[17:29] <thorwil> longest underscore tail i ever saw
[17:30] <rsc-______> whoaa
[17:30] <rsc-> internet connection fail
[17:36] <rsc-> so whats up? did i miss anything?
[17:37] <thorwil> rsc-: not really. Kenneth is cooking schnitzel, though
[17:37] <savvas> schnitzel for the kernel? :p
[17:37] <thorwil> savvas: do you call your belly kernel?
[17:38] <savvas> I'm transhumanized
[17:38] <savvas> I run on linux and dog parts :p
[17:41] <savvas> maybe the dog parts aren't a good addition in transhumanisation.. but the linux kernel would be a heck of an improvement :)
[17:41] <thorwil> heh
[17:41] <savvas> imagine having an extra cpu to do the legwork hehe
[17:48] <DannyKing> border: 1px solid gold;  That's the most expensive CSS setting I've seen
[17:49] <thorwil> heh
[17:49]  * thorwil has high hopes an a gtk css theme-engine
[17:50] <DannyKing> That would be nice, I'd look into theme making if it was such an easy transition from web development
[17:53] <rsc-> @app('nautilus') vbox button:focus { padding: 2px; background-image: url(button.png); outline: solid 2px red; }
[17:53] <rsc-> ;)
[17:53]  * rsc- wishes
[17:54] <rsc-> speaking of webdev, can anyone critique on a recent work of mine?
[17:54] <rsc-> http://dump.ambiescent.com/i/0809-clutterrific.jpg
[17:54] <rsc-> still unsure on a few things
[17:56] <savvas> I think the plain background without vertical stripes is better
[17:56] <rsc-> oh no
[17:56] <rsc-> those stripes are just... guide lines
[17:56] <rsc-> they wont be there in the final version
[17:56] <thorwil> phew
[17:56] <savvas> ah, a grid? :P
[17:56] <thorwil> rsc-: that page clearly says business
[17:57] <rsc-> yes a grid
[17:57] <savvas> yep, it's great :)
[17:57] <thorwil> rsc-: is that supposed to be a paper-clip top left?
[17:58] <thorwil> rsc-: it's getting a bit much to the right
[17:59]  * thorwil -> dinner
[18:01] <rsc-> yep, that was a paperclip.
[18:09] <rsc-> welcome back DannyKing
[18:10] <DannyKing> Thanks, don't know what happened :\
[18:12] <DannyKing> hola PRGUY85
[18:13] <PRGUY85> que tal DannyKing
[18:13] <DannyKing> Very good thanks, and you?
[18:13] <PRGUY85> good testing out Fedora 10
[18:13] <DannyKing> What's it like?
[18:13] <PRGUY85> its kinda similar to Ubuntu really, the artwork is 10x better though
[18:14] <PRGUY85> have you seen the theme for the 10th release?
[18:14] <DannyKing> I don't think so, have you got a link?
[18:15] <PRGUY85> sure thing: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/F10Themes/Solar
[18:15] <DannyKing> Thanks :)
[18:15] <PRGUY85> I liked it so much I am right now using Shiki Colors (Blue) with that wallpaper
[18:16] <DannyKing> Looks pretty good
[18:16] <PRGUY85> yea
[18:16] <DannyKing> I like the consistency between everything
[18:17] <PRGUY85> they make a mission of bringing about new themes for each release and have contests, etc.
[18:17] <DannyKing> Hey, what's an 'icon' in Spanish?
[18:17] <PRGUY85> still keeping with the blue fedora colors
[18:17] <PRGUY85> hmmm
[18:17] <PRGUY85> that's a hard one
[18:17] <PRGUY85> icono
[18:17] <DannyKing> Am gracias :)
[18:18] <DannyKing> NASA release their images into the public domain I think - some great images of the earth and other planets
[18:19] <PRGUY85> but that's a stylized version
[18:19] <PRGUY85> and it has night/day cycle too
[18:20] <PRGUY85> to tell you the truth I have tested intrepid and Im not that impressed
[18:20]  * DannyKing hasn't tried it out - what don't you like?
[18:20] <PRGUY85> some of the great innovations are coming from the gnome 2.24 release.
[18:21] <PRGUY85> it seems like hardy really with little additions here and there.  I think they really much need at least a try to make a new theme progression in order to validate mark's cry to the linux world to compete with Mac
[18:22] <DannyKing> You're speaking purely visually I guess (look & feel) ?
[18:22] <DannyKing> or technically too?
[18:22] <PRGUY85> look and feel in terms of theme
[18:22] <DannyKing> Yeah I think a lot of people feel the way you do
[18:22] <savvas> hm.. shouldn't we have a grub theme too?
[18:22] <PRGUY85> technically speaking the release is sound in terms of the network connections and some of the gnome 2.24 innovations
[18:23] <PRGUY85> they should really work that Empathy addition.  In its current form its great since it integrates with the desktop
[18:23] <PRGUY85> and I kinda like packagekit as default for the system
[18:25] <DannyKing> What's packagekit?
[18:25] <PRGUY85> packagekit is a system that serves for updating/installing software
[18:25] <PRGUY85> and that works as frontend for apt-get, yum, and many other different package systems
[18:26] <PRGUY85> its a uniform way to install software on all major linux distributions and its quite simple.
[18:26] <DannyKing> Oh I see, sounds good
[18:33] <PRGUY85> DannyKing, you've got any hope that there will be a new default theme?
[18:33] <DannyKing> For Intrepid? I'm pretty new here so I don't know much, but from what I've read noone seems optimistic
[18:33] <PRGUY85> yea
[18:34]  * DannyKing would like it
[18:34] <PRGUY85> I have been working on New Wave with Dilomo, at least it will go in community theme package
[18:34] <PRGUY85> the new default wallpaper for Intrepid is kinda unexpected.
[18:34] <DannyKing> But then again I tend to use ubuntu studio's theme
[18:34] <aantn> DannyKing: same, but you seem to be right about it not happening
[18:34] <DannyKing> Cool
[18:34] <aantn> PRGUY85: what ts it?
[18:34] <PRGUY85> aantn, let me post the link
[18:35] <PRGUY85> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hoL9qH83NDM/SN4A7siJJII/AAAAAAAAAGo/aBOC51po01M/s1600-h/warty-final-ubuntu.png
[18:35]  * aantn suspects he already saw it and didn't realize
[18:35] <PRGUY85> there you all go
[18:35] <aantn> erm, that doesn't seem right
[18:36] <aantn> kwwii: ping
[18:36] <aantn> PRGUY85: why is the file name "warty-final-ubuntu.png"?
[18:36] <PRGUY85> aantn, no idea
[18:37] <PRGUY85> aantn, I just tried the latest intrepid nightly build (released yesterday) and it defaults with that wallpaper and the Human theme
[18:39] <PRGUY85> be right back
[18:41] <aantn> PRGUY85: ouch
[18:41] <PRGUY85> aantn, yes its not awful but not what expected.
[18:42] <PRGUY85> I hope by beta they make the theme issue clear seeing as how they promised it for hardy and delayed it for intrepid
[18:42] <aantn> PRGUY85: maybe five years ago
[18:42] <aantn> (the wallpaper)
[18:42] <PRGUY85> and now I don't see it even on the proposed/accepted features for intrepid
[18:43] <rsc-> what are we talking about here?
[18:43] <rsc-> new theme?
[18:43] <PRGUY85> rsc-, yes sorry to bring it up
[18:43] <aantn> rsc-: and the wallpaper
[18:43] <rsc-> what about the wallpaper?
[18:43] <rsc-> Isn't it still open?
[18:43] <PRGUY85> yea
[18:44] <rsc-> cool.
[18:44] <rsc-> lets pick a nice photo from wiki commons and get it over with
[18:44] <rsc-> LOL
[18:44] <DannyKing> heh
[18:44] <aantn> rsc-: :)
[18:44] <rsc-> seriously though
[18:45] <rsc-> i can't believe the bitching on the theme :/
[18:45] <aantn> rsc-: yeah :(
[18:45] <rsc-> the most vocal ones are the whiners
[18:45] <aantn> I'd love to see dust as default
[18:45] <rsc-> not happening, unfortunately
[18:45] <aantn> rsc-: I know :(
[18:46] <rsc-> (esp. with openoffice really ugly on it!)
[18:46] <PRGUY85> sorry to whine rsc-
[18:46] <rsc-> PRGUY85, oh sorry i wasn't talking about you
[18:46] <rsc-> if you check on the forums, there are a bunch of posts like "can't they stop trying to fix small bugs and just get on with making a theme?"
[18:46] <PRGUY85> no, that is a stupid thought I know.
[18:46] <rsc-> which is quite a short-sighted comment IMHO
[18:47] <rsc-> but after having a little more experience here, I can say theming Ubuntu is no easy task :/
[18:47] <PRGUY85> but we have been using pretty much same theme for a long time, Human Murrine was nice but  I think that after 6-7 releases there should be a change or something
[18:48] <PRGUY85> I know nothing about theming, I can only test them out and give opinions which is always easier than doing.
[18:48] <PRGUY85> yet, as I was saying, fedora has good implementation of new themes and looks for releases.  Specially the latest one.
[18:48] <rsc-> fedora 9?
[18:49] <PRGUY85> 10
[18:49] <rsc-> IMHO
[18:49] <PRGUY85> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Artwork/F10Themes/Solar
[18:49] <PRGUY85> rsc-, are you dust's creator?
[18:49] <rsc-> even if Ubuntu was to have used that look in the past releases (in place of human), people would stll whine about the same thing
[18:49] <rsc-> PRGUY85, yep.
[18:50] <PRGUY85> rsc-, nice theme there, I have some complains about it but its light years ahead of default
[18:50] <PRGUY85> I work with dilomo on new wave.
[18:50] <Cimi> even if their engine and icons are not better than clearlooks or murrine (and tango) they did a better job imho than ubuntu and others
[18:51] <PRGUY85> Cimi, who you talking about? Fedora 10?
[18:51] <Cimi> generally
[18:51] <Cimi> I'm not in love with that fedora 10 theme
[18:51] <Cimi> but it seems much better than human-murrine
[18:51] <rsc-> neither am I really
[18:51] <PRGUY85> well, as I saw in Fedora, people released their themes and community voted
[18:51] <aantn> Cimi: it's probably the best out of all of them; some of the others are pretty bad
[18:51] <PRGUY85> and the one that won was elected.
[18:52] <PRGUY85> yet, it is a complete theme, wallpaper, gdm, grub, usplash
[18:52] <PRGUY85> consistency.
[18:52] <rsc-> i'd say the only 'cool' factor of it is that it's new and complete
[18:52] <PRGUY85> rsc-, true
[18:52] <rsc-> but as far as aesthetics and modern-ness, it's nothing special
[18:52] <Cimi> fedora doesn't have usplash
[18:52] <PRGUY85> sorry, I meant the install windows
[18:52] <rsc-> and if it was used like Ubuntu used Human, it'd suffer the same "it sucks" fate eventually.
[18:53] <PRGUY85> I love the Day of Ubuntu wallpaper slideshow.
[18:53] <Cimi> ubuntu soffers of the palette
[18:53] <Cimi> imho it's boring (it should have more vibrant colors)
[18:53] <PRGUY85> yea, it is hard to sell brown/orange.  Blue/green/silver/black are more appealing
[18:53] <Cimi> of course, for a matter of psicology
[18:53] <rsc-> IMHO there's nothing inherently wrong with brown and orange.
[18:54] <rsc-> it's more of Ubuntu's use of it
[18:54] <PRGUY85> rsc-, exactly
[18:54] <Cimi> the blue remembers the sea and the sky
[18:54] <Cimi> like green remembers the earth
[18:54] <PRGUY85> hey rsc-, why you choose dark brown when ubuntu was headed toward dark orange?
[18:54] <rsc-> i.e., "Okay, the theme color is orange. What color do we make the folders? the back button? Oh that's easy. Orange."
[18:54] <Cimi> earth/life
[18:54] <Cimi> while brown... what do you think when you see brown? :)
[18:54] <rsc-> which, IMHO, isn't quite how designers should think.
[18:54] <PRGUY85> Cimi, touche
[18:54] <rsc-> PRGUY85, I was thinking what would be a good compliment to orange.
[18:55] <PRGUY85> rsc-, fair
[18:55] <rsc-> PRGUY85, while still being roughly derivative of the palette
[18:55] <rsc-> Dust had orange highlights before.
[18:55] <PRGUY85> Ubuntu could try and use Shiki Colors
[18:55] <rsc-> But I had to drop it, one of the main reasons being the over-prolification of orange elsewhere in the Ubuntu desktop.
[18:55] <Cimi> orange is not that bad
[18:56] <PRGUY85> rsc-, true.  Only thing I don't like about Dust (which is an excellent theme) are the new scrollbars.
[18:56] <rsc-> Orange is a good color, IMHO.
[18:56] <rsc-> just use it right
[18:56] <Cimi> but it could be used in a much better way than human-murrine (horrible IMHO)
[18:56] <rsc-> PRGUY85, join the club :)
[18:56] <rsc-> Everyone hates the scrollbars, I don't understand :P
[18:56] <PRGUY85> rsc-, hahaha I know.  I'm subscribed to the wiki and I get emails from that all the time
[18:56] <rsc-> It's not good by any stretch I admit, but I don't understand why everyone's vehemently against it
[18:57] <PRGUY85> rsc-, they feel blocky and kinda too big for the scroll space
[18:57] <Cimi> dust is not our fault, it won't be a default
[18:57] <Cimi> not now and not in the next 100 years
[18:57] <rsc-> "is not our fault"?
[18:57] <Cimi> if we are talking about the ubuntu design
[18:57] <PRGUY85> Cimi, what do you mean?
[18:57] <DannyKing> Cimi: why?
[18:57] <Cimi> we should argue about the default look and appearance, not some themes from users
[18:58] <PRGUY85> Cimi, I give you that
[18:58] <Cimi> gnomelook is full of themes by users
[18:58] <Cimi> so dust is nothing more than shiki-colros or whatever you like
[18:58] <PRGUY85> well, we talk about user themes because we are looking for solutions to the default
[18:58] <PRGUY85> as the ubuntu-artwork team has stated, the default theme can come from community
[18:59] <rsc-> Dust is supposed to extend to a full suite, incl wallpapers and login screens
[18:59] <PRGUY85> rsc-, I'm anxiously awaiting for icons hehe
[18:59] <PRGUY85> the icon mockup was great
[18:59] <rsc-> I'm not sure how I cna make an icon set right now
[18:59] <rsc-> but im considering it :P
[18:59] <Cimi> believe me
[18:59] <DannyKing> Is dust intended to be a part of kyudo?
[19:00] <rsc-> DannyKing, no.
[19:00] <PRGUY85> I don't really get Kyudo yet
[19:00] <PRGUY85> brb
[19:00] <DannyKing> k
[19:00] <Cimi> dust is just a simple theme
[19:00] <rsc-> DannyKing, however, it was made with some of the kyudo guidelines even before Kyudo was out
[19:00] <Cimi> it won't be more than a simple theme from the community
[19:02] <thorwil> PRGUY85: maybe i can help you to understand it if you ask questions ;)
[19:04] <Cimi> maybe clearlooks (in blue) is not the sexy/pretty/stylish theme out there, but why it is still used by thousands of people? because it is consistent and -usable-
[19:05] <Cimi> because it is easy on the eyes, and you can work with it for 24 hours a day without being stressed
[19:06] <thorwil> Cimi: you often sound like the not stressed part didn't work out for you ;)
[19:06] <Cimi> I don't think I could work 24 hours a day with a mix of white and dark colors (dust)
[19:07] <Cimi> thorwil, I usually code when I'm on the pc, and having a smooth colorcheme is pleasant if you watch the screen for hours
[19:07] <DannyKing> Actually I like having a dark theme for coding (with light text)
[19:07] <Cimi> a big black toolbar with fat black scrollbars is not comfortable to me
[19:08] <Cimi> DannyKing, everything dark or everything bright
[19:08] <Cimi> there are a lot of studies behind this
[19:08] <Cimi> even the TV LCD
[19:08] <Cimi> like philips ambilight
[19:08] <thorwil> DannyKing: i have a theory that bright-on-dark themes work better in dark conditions. seems many coders are productive at night
[19:09] <DannyKing> thorwil: yes perhaps, it seems to fit with me
[19:09] <DannyKing> Cimi: I see your point
[19:10] <thorwil> i also have my problems with a dark/bright mix
[19:10] <Cimi> let me search for a link
[19:11] <thorwil> anyone subscribed to our wiki pages? we have 2 Breathe submissions now: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Submissions
[19:11] <DannyKing> ooh
[19:11]  * DannyKing goes to look
[19:11] <DannyKing> I guess orange is popular then
[19:11] <thorwil> heh
[19:12] <DannyKing> I like the perspective of the book
[19:12] <DannyKing> Not so much of the bin
[19:12] <DannyKing> oh it's a box
[19:12] <aantn> thorwil: I don't think the trash can has the right colors
[19:13] <DannyKing> Also the logo should bend with the bin, but it's clearly just a prototype.
[19:13] <thorwil> aantn: it's just a re-colored oxygen bin
[19:13] <DannyKing> Should we use ubuntu branding on the icons?
[19:13] <thorwil> DannyKing: i think the logo shouldn't be on the trash
[19:13] <DannyKing> That would limit them to just being used on ubuntu
[19:13] <DannyKing> agreed hehe :)
[19:14]  * rsc- is considering a new direction for Dust.
[19:14] <rsc-> having just the nautilus and firefox windows use the dark toolbars
[19:14] <thorwil> DannyKing: while want the icons for ubuntu, plastering the word and logo all over the place will only look cheap
[19:14] <rsc-> and the rest would use a different, lighter-colored style
[19:15] <rsc-> still unsure though.
[19:15] <rsc-> inkscape, and abiword/gnumeric/office apps look stupid with dark toolbars.
[19:15] <lucazade> it could be a right direction
[19:16] <rsc-> IMHO, this variation is necessary.
[19:16] <rsc-> if you look at Apple's interfaces, they have different looks for different apps. The "pro" apps (after effects) look heavier (with itunes using brushed metal before), while the more everyday apps are lighter.
[19:17] <rsc-> I think a similar distinction (with different criteria) will be good.
[19:17] <lucazade> i don't think so, i would miss integration
[19:17] <aantn> rsc-: I'm not sure about it
[19:18] <rsc-> aantn, why?
[19:18] <aantn> rsc-: the different interfaces are probably a bad thing
[19:18] <rsc-> of course even if they're different, they have to visually link together.
[19:18] <aantn> rsc-: and if its a good design then it should be used consistently everywhere
[19:18] <thorwil> rsc-: perhaps the separation could be along text-centric vs image/video/audio
[19:18] <rsc-> check out Leopard OSX and it's quicklook. it's *jarringly* different from the rest of the OS, but still aesthetically integrates well.
[19:19] <PRGUY85> well separation cna be good if they seem part of the same coherent theme package.
[19:19] <aantn> thorwil: yeah, it doesn't fit with the other icons
[19:19] <rsc-> http://macapper.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/quicklook2.png
[19:19] <lucazade> also windows does the same.. but u know the results
[19:19] <lucazade> see wlm wmp
[19:19] <rsc-> one of the things I hate about Human (and the other 3rd party themes) is *monotony*.
[19:19] <rsc-> every app looks the same.
[19:19]  * thorwil hugs rsc- 
[19:20] <PRGUY85> by the way, don't like those new breathe icon submissions
[19:20] <rsc-> haha :)
[19:20] <PRGUY85> look kinda tacky
[19:20] <rsc-> PRGUY85, link please? i havent seen them
[19:20] <aantn> rsc-: agreed
[19:20] <PRGUY85> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Submissions
[19:20] <thorwil> "monotony" is _the_ word for the ubuntu theme
[19:20] <aantn> PRGUY85: agreed as well
[19:21] <aantn> the other icons are stunning, and the new ones really can't be compared
[19:21] <thorwil> PRGUY85: yes. now there is the problem that we have a submitter that isn't here and didn't post these to the list
[19:21] <PRGUY85> exactly
[19:21] <aantn> maybe the book is acceptable
[19:21]  * aantn shrugs
[19:21] <Cimi> http://www.displaycalibration.com/brightness_contrast.html
[19:21] <Cimi> here's the link
[19:21] <lucazade> nice
[19:22] <Cimi> place your mouse over
[19:22] <Cimi> [BLACK]   [GRAY]   [WHITE]   [RED]   [GREEN]   [BLUE]
[19:22] <PRGUY85> when you guys say hyper-realistic for breathe, how can you say the current breathe icons are hyper-realistic?
[19:22] <Cimi> to see how the eye see the colors
[19:22] <PRGUY85> for me they are highly stylized versions of reality, not hyper-realistic.
[19:22] <Cimi> *reacts to the colors
[19:23] <lucazade> grey seems to be the most relaxing one
[19:23] <thorwil> PRGUY85: hyper-realistic is _not_ photo-realistic
[19:23] <thorwil> PRGUY85: also, what we have and what anyone of us might want are different ;)
[19:23] <PRGUY85> thorwil, example please
[19:23] <Borzo> the book has one problem in my oppinion, the dictionary writing is not visible when the size is small
[19:24] <Cimi> you can see how the black pattern is seen with more contrast while black on black
[19:24] <Cimi> hey guys! see my link
[19:24] <PRGUY85> I don't think Icons should have any words or logos, they should display the information on a visual way.
[19:24] <thorwil> PRGUY85: what i mean with hyper-realistic is even better than real. polished, clean, stylized realness
[19:24] <Borzo> PRGUY85: I agree
[19:24] <PRGUY85> its like adding voiceover to a movie character that is silent
[19:26] <thorwil> i will send Sebastian a mail, trying to bring our criticism across without scaring him away
[19:26] <PRGUY85> sebastian did great work on his elementary derived icons
[19:26] <DannyKing> I'd imagine he didn't intend them to be final - probably just wants to get the ball rolling
[19:27] <thorwil> DannyKing: yes, but letting them sit their with no feedback is not good
[19:27] <DannyKing> true.
[19:27] <PRGUY85> thorwil, true
[19:27]  * DannyKing would do them completely differently
[19:28] <PRGUY85> DannyKing, how so
[19:28] <DannyKing> Not orange for a start, also I'd have them looking hyper-realistic, since that's what the dominant opinion seems to be of how they should look
[19:29] <Borzo> see you guys in about 2hrs
[19:29] <DannyKing> e.g. the bin would be made of a common material (wood, metal, plastic, whatever) rather than... orange
[19:29] <PRGUY85> can someone send me a clear example of hyper-realistic since I'm lost in what you mean by that.
[19:30] <thorwil> DannyKing: dominant opinion? it's just that i have been quite vocal there ;)
[19:30] <DannyKing> thorwil: by that I mean you and I have the same opinion and we are the only ones to have posted suggestions about the look & feel on the list
[19:30] <thorwil> heh, ok
[19:30] <DannyKing> PRGUY85: photo realistic, as in ... you want to touch it
[19:31] <PRGUY85> DannyKing, yes but hyper-realistic is not photo-realistic, so anyone has a picture of hyper-realism
[19:32] <DannyKing> I think the difference between the two is: photo-realistic looks exactly as the real world would, whereas hyper would be photoshopped and always perfect
[19:32] <DannyKing> (please correct me someone if that's wrong)
[19:32] <thorwil> maybe this does it, to some degree: http://www.finalrender.com/products/images/fr_stage1/r2/CarPaint_MarkusBaader.jpg
[19:33] <thorwil> no: http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=2503
[19:34] <DannyKing> heh, perhaps a good definition is: more realistic than real life?
[19:35] <DannyKing> or, more detailed than real life?
[19:35] <thorwil> PRGUY85: if you look at that ^, you see it's cleaner and more vibrant than a photo would be. also the entire posing and lighting is totaly controled
[19:35] <PRGUY85> yea, get it now.
[19:35] <PRGUY85> its like processed reality
[19:36] <DannyKing> thorwil: we should probably define this and put it on the wiki
[19:36] <thorwil> DannyKing: not necessarily more detailed, as we don't have much room for them
[19:36] <DannyKing> http://features.cgsociety.org/newgallerycrits/g51/89651/89651_1095243055.jpg    <--- wow that's pretty amazing
[19:36] <DannyKing> thorwil: yeah tue. More perfect than real life?
[19:36] <thorwil> yes
[19:37] <DannyKing> Although that's quite a daunting aim
[19:37] <DannyKing> might put people off contributing
[19:37] <thorwil> DannyKing: better aim high. easier to lower the bar than to put it higher after you already started
[19:38] <DannyKing> I agree fully.
[19:38] <DannyKing> Just cautious of making it too elitist
[19:39] <thorwil> DannyKing: if you look at what many of the people on the list acomplished so far, regarding artwork ... you just have to shut them out
[19:40] <thorwil> DannyKing: i like the idea of allowing everyone to join, to look for any and all sign of talent and to offer mentoring
[19:41] <thorwil> DannyKing: but so hard to combine that with marching towards the actual goal
[19:42] <thorwil> over at Fedora, you have to apply for membership in the artwork group and you have to submit artwork that will be judged in the process
[19:43] <PRGUY85> thorwil, not a bad idea.
[19:46] <PRGUY85> offtopic, I'm testing latest Fedora 10 alpha updated and it's quite good.
[19:52] <thorwil> ok. mail written. i invited Sebastian (spg76) to join us here
[19:54] <thorwil> DannyKing: hope i haven't scared you :)
[19:55] <DannyKing> no no, sorry - I'm working on another screen
[19:55] <thorwil> heh, ok
[19:55] <DannyKing> I do see your point and I do want breathe to be a highly skilled and all-round excellent icon set
[19:56] <DannyKing> Just wanted to discuss it :)
[19:56] <DannyKing> I feel that the current icons submitted to breathe, including the folder are too cartoony
[19:57] <DannyKing> and too glossy
[19:57]  * DannyKing feels bad because of the time gone in to the already submitted icons
[19:57] <DannyKing> Granted it's only three, but still.
[19:58] <thorwil> the shine/reflections on the base oxygen bin are totally out of whack
[19:58] <DannyKing> Hmm also I think text in an icon is a bad idea for i8n reasons
[19:58] <DannyKing> (flags too)
[19:58] <thorwil> true
[19:59] <DannyKing> perhaps an open dictionary would solve that... they tend to have pretty uniform layouts inside
[19:59] <DannyKing> and for smaller icons it'd just look like a book, but that's fine?
[20:00] <DannyKing> a normal book*
[20:00] <thorwil> should be
[20:00] <thorwil> DannyKing: perhaps we shouldn't skip pencil and paper
[20:01] <DannyKing> As in planning using pencil & paper?
[20:01] <thorwil> yes
[20:01] <DannyKing> That should /never/ be skipped ;)
[20:04] <thorwil> http://thorwil.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/brainstorm_help_01_si.png?w=400&h=318 :)
[20:05] <DannyKing> Oh you did that standing up ubuntu icon? I love it!
[20:05] <thorwil> yes, thank you!
[20:06] <DannyKing> Perhaps icon idea should be posted as a sketch and agreed on before people submit icons?
[20:06] <thorwil> well, we might want to encourage that, at least
[20:06] <DannyKing> It'd save some bad feelings if someone designs an icon but it doesn't fit with other peoples opinions
[20:07] <DannyKing> Nice handshake idea there btw
[20:07] <thorwil> ty
[20:07] <PRGUY85> nice stuff thorwil
[20:07] <thorwil> PRGUY85: thanks :)
[20:07] <DannyKing> I read an interesting blog post challenging the save icon the other day
[20:08] <DannyKing> it argued that the floppy disk shouldn't be used, because a) it's outdated and therefore b) newer computer users don't know what one is
[20:08] <DannyKing> But noone could work out what to use instead
[20:08] <thorwil> huh?
[20:08] <DannyKing> well, a save icon in every single app you've ever used is a floppy disk, right?
[20:09] <thorwil> i already saw an arrow pointing down to a harddisk in one of the major icon sets
[20:09] <DannyKing> yeah but that means save or download to me
[20:09] <DannyKing> *save from the web
[20:10] <DannyKing> And maybe hard disks will be outdated in ten years - so that's a similar problem, is it not?
[20:11] <thorwil> no. if the icon is still in use in 10 years ...
[20:11] <PRGUY85> maybe a lock? or an arrow going to a safe?
[20:11] <DannyKing> I like the safe idea
[20:12] <thorwil> will probably need those for crypto and access rights
[20:12] <DannyKing> true
[20:12] <PRGUY85> an arrow going into a safe?
[20:12] <PRGUY85> hm
[20:13] <DannyKing> At the end of the post I think I came to the conclusion that a floppy was fine - but it got me thinking about it
[20:13] <PRGUY85> well, the USB universal symbol is recognizable and holds no special meaning, people just relate it to USB
[20:13] <PRGUY85> the same happens and will happen to the floppy disk I think
[20:13] <DannyKing> Yeah that was the reason why I accepted it, I think
[20:14] <thorwil> it's ok as learned symbol
[20:14] <PRGUY85> oh one thing, I tested out Intrepid with Gnome 2.24 and New Wave, and they added the option for theme to use light colored menus on main OS menu and dark colored menus for programs
[20:15] <PRGUY85> that's something Dilomo talked about once that would be available on Gnome 2.24 as a revision
[20:52]  * DannyKing hits internet explorer
[20:52] <thorwil> with a hammer?
[20:53] <DannyKing> With a tank.
[20:53] <thorwil> it has always been much of the reason why i don't enjoy web-design. admittedly, the other thing was netscape 4
[20:54] <DannyKing> Which has now died :D
[20:54] <DannyKing> Yeah IE really destroys much of the fun thing you can do with web design
[20:54] <DannyKing> IE7 is a big step forward though
[20:54] <DannyKing> And before too long IE6 will be ignorable
[20:54] <DannyKing> The future looks good, after 10 years :)
[20:54] <thorwil> heh
[20:55] <DannyKing> Unless chrome breaks it all...
[20:55] <DannyKing> But google aren't evil... right? ;)
[20:55] <DanaG> That's a bad name for a browser... considering "Chrome" is the name for a browser's UI elements.
[20:55] <DannyKing> Yeah true#
[20:56] <thorwil> DanaG: that's the reason they called it that way
[20:56] <DannyKing> It's a nice little thing though :)
[20:56] <DannyKing> should be chromeless then
[20:57] <DannyKing> (it has minimal ui)
[21:00] <thorwil> _MMA_: i just noticed for the very first time that the 22px plate rests on 24px one in the template :/
[21:01] <thorwil> _MMA_: must be because 24 is/was the gnome size, but tango advocates 22
[21:05] <thorwil> on to another week. good night! :)
[23:37] <Cimi> kwwii, update to rev 79 BUT NOT 80 and newer until I will tell you
[23:38] <Cimi> update to 79 to have rounded gtkentry in firefox