[00:03] <kwwii> Cimi: ok, will do tomorrow
[00:03] <kwwii> Cimi: I might bug you about it tomorrow, will you be online?
[00:03] <kwwii> I've been waiting for the final update :-)
[00:04] <_MMA_> kwwii: Gonna be a late night again?
[00:04] <Cimi> kwwii, no I won't
[00:04] <Cimi> maybe tuesday
[00:05] <Cimi> *maybe*
[00:07] <kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, some asshole is making me work on a fscking folder icon...like the other guy who wants a mockup of a style in the last stages of an ubuntu release :p
[00:07] <kwwii> Cimi: ok, I'll call you cell phone
[00:07] <kwwii>  :p
[00:07] <kwwii> you would shit
[00:07] <kwwii> "hey, this is ken, how's the coding going?"
[00:07] <Cimi> =)
[00:08] <_MMA_> kwwii: I'll send the check after I get the folder.
[00:09] <kwwii> _MMA_: I love you too
[00:09] <_MMA_> ;)
[00:10] <kwwii> Cimi: btw, there were bug reports about the transparency in apps
[00:11] <Cimi> you should disable the transdparency
[00:11] <Cimi> rgba = FALSE
[00:11] <kwwii> I will still biuld the engine with the rgba stuff but out themes will not have it
[00:11] <Cimi> and animations (why you added them?)
[00:11] <kwwii> I think that eventually it might be usefull
[00:11] <kwwii> and some people might want it
[00:11] <kwwii> and it does work unless you do funky stuff
[00:11]  * _MMA_ has never had issue with animations.
[00:11] <kwwii> well, it works where it works
[00:12] <kwwii> Cimi: that is something that psyke always adds, I take it out again and again
[00:12] <kwwii> it is a mistake
[00:12] <Cimi> kwwii, disable at compile
[00:12] <kwwii> mdz and sabdfl hate the animation
[00:12] <_MMA_> No
[00:12] <Cimi> me too
[00:12] <kwwii> Cimi: why?
[00:13] <kwwii> Cimi: if the theme is not using rgba who cares?
[00:13] <Cimi> those animations are quite useless
[00:13] <Cimi> kwwii, I mean the animations
[00:13] <kwwii> definitely
[00:13] <_MMA_> Don't cripple the engine. Change it in themes.
[00:13] <kwwii> yes, the animations I agree with
[00:13] <kwwii> :-)
[00:13] <Cimi> or I will remove them in the code
[00:13] <Cimi> ;)
[00:13] <_MMA_> Great. Keep us in the 90's.
[00:14] <kwwii> I let Conn try what he things is right, it is his right to prove his point (even if I revert it) if he does the work
[00:14] <kwwii> he turns on the animations every time
[00:14] <kwwii> :-)
[00:14] <kwwii> I think he likes them
[00:16] <kwwii> Cimi: I think you expect the same treatment :-) I cannot just ell you what I want and expect to get it, artisticaly
[00:16] <kwwii> s/ell/tell
[00:17] <Cimi> I'm rewriting the glaze function: I hope to achieve the same look while reducing a LOT the code
[00:17] <Cimi> it will land in rev 80
[00:18] <DanaG> Oh yeah, will you at some point end up changing the "focus" style?
[00:20] <Cimi> of course
[00:20] <Cimi> but I REALLY need a mockup that works with any colorscheme
[00:35] <Cimi> wohooo
[00:35]  * Cimi is happy of his new code
[00:36] <Cimi> proud, not happy ;)
[00:50] <Cimi> finally less code to maintain °_°
[00:53] <Cimi> :')
[00:54] <DannyKing> I've no idea what code you're working on, but sounds like a great improvement :)
[01:03] <Cimi> DannyKing, basically for every widget I got repetitive code to draw the glaze effects
[01:03] <Cimi> something like 30 lines for every widget
[01:04] <Cimi> now there's only one line ;)
[01:04] <Cimi> the main advantage is that if there's a bug you have to change in one place for the whole look
[01:05] <Cimi> but for the look... If I didn't make mistakes it is the same, bugged otherwise =)
[01:06] <DannyKing> sounds like good work :)
[01:07] <DannyKing> What widgets are those?
[01:07] <Cimi> every widget is subject to glazestyle
[01:07] <Cimi> buttons
[01:07] <Cimi> sliders
[01:07] <Cimi> progress
[01:07] <Cimi> scroll
[01:07] <Cimi> toolbars
[01:07] <Cimi> menubars
[01:07] <DannyKing> Desktop widgets?
[01:07] <Cimi> listview
[01:07] <Cimi> DannyKing, gtk+ widgets
[01:08] <DannyKing> ahh understood :)
[01:08] <Cimi> DannyKing, I'm the author of murrine engine
[01:08] <Cimi> I'm optimizing ity
[01:08] <DannyKing> Cool, I'm afraid I've never done any theming so I'm ignorant to much of this stuff... but I do appreciate it!
[01:11] <Cimi> - 500 lines!
[01:11] <Cimi> WOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
[02:23]  * DannyKing does a victory dance
[02:24] <DannyKing> The website I've been working on for far too long is fiiiiinally finished
[03:50] <agosto> hello
[04:35] <rsc-> hey there MMA.
[04:39]  * _MMA_ , in his sleep-deprived state, waves.
[04:39] <PRGUY85> hehe hello MMA
[04:40] <_MMA_> Well, I actually took a long nap. That's why Im still up. :)
[04:40] <rsc-> lovely
[04:40] <rsc-> what timezone are you guys in anyway?
[04:41] <PRGUY85> its 11:41PM here
[04:41] <_MMA_> same
[04:41] <PRGUY85> im on eastern time with no daylight saving
[04:42] <PRGUY85> hey when is the intrepid beta going to release/
[04:43] <rsc-> look at the schedule
[04:43] <_MMA_> !schedule
[04:43] <rsc-> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidReleaseSchedule
[04:44] <_MMA_> Hmm... U thought the bot knew as well.
[04:44] <_MMA_> s/U/I
[04:44] <PRGUY85> I know
[04:44] <PRGUY85> I know where to look hehe
[04:44] <PRGUY85> just wondering if they will keep to the date
[04:45] <rsc-> PRGUY85, got new dust scrollbars btw
[04:45] <rsc-> it sucks too, im sure
[04:45] <PRGUY85> hey don't get all depressive on me haha
[04:45] <PRGUY85> I never said they sucked
[04:45] <rsc-> :p
[04:45] <PRGUY85> I'm liking the new toolbars
[04:45] <PRGUY85> why not use black like the original mockup?
[04:46] <rsc-> too strong.
[04:46] <PRGUY85> what is the color of the selected scrollbar?
[04:46] <PRGUY85> is that the default? light sand? or does it turn darker?
[04:46] <rsc-> slightly lighter
[04:47] <PRGUY85> slightly lighter when selected?
[04:47] <_MMA_> rsc-: I'm liking the new Dust stuff. We gotta tinker with a Studio version in a couple of weeks.
[04:47] <rsc-> Sand is just a extra variant (not part of Dust)
[04:47] <PRGUY85> okok
[04:47] <PRGUY85> well show me the latest Dust perse scrollbars
[04:47] <rsc-> for the people bitching about dust being too dark. :b
[04:47] <PRGUY85> hahaha
[04:47] <PRGUY85> hey you don't have to cater to anyone
[04:47] <PRGUY85> lots of people love Dust as it is.
[04:48] <rsc-> yeah, but I thought "i wonder how it'd look?"
[04:48] <rsc-> not sure about releasing it
[04:48] <rsc-> needs a lot more polish at this point.
[04:48] <PRGUY85> I'm right now using Shiki Brave with the default Fedora 10 wallpaper because I'm going through a Fedora phase haha
[04:48] <rsc-> it's more of a "proof of concept" for now
[04:48] <PRGUY85> but I'll return to New Wave/Dust soon.
[04:48] <PRGUY85> by the way, did you guys see the Echo icon theme for Fedora 10?
[04:48] <PRGUY85> it's interesting, quite different to what I would expect in Ubuntu
[04:49] <_MMA_> People who use their birth year in their nick make me feel old.
[04:49] <PRGUY85> haha sorry MMA
[04:49] <PRGUY85> I feel kinda old too at times nowadays
[04:50] <PRGUY85> when I started using it I was like the young nerd fellow
[04:50] <PRGUY85> hehe
[04:51] <MMA76> :P
[04:51] <PRGUY85> hahahahahah
[04:52] <PRGUY85> offtopic, I have this issue, Dilomo left me in charge of New Wave....yet I know nothing about fixing theme errors.
[04:53] <_MMA_> Sounds like time to read up or ask a specific question.
[04:53] <_MMA_> Most likely both.
[04:54]  * _MMA_ goes to make a snack, then try to sleep.
[04:55] <PRGUY85> hehe probably, although I don't know what else to do to the theme.  Right now I think it's pretty functional and fits Ubuntu.
[04:55] <PRGUY85> rsc-, you've got any previews of Dust for me? hehe
[04:57] <rsc-> PRGUY85, the mailing list.
[04:57] <rsc-> i just posted some screenshots
[04:57] <PRGUY85> I know, but I want to test haha not see
[04:58] <rsc-> ahh.
[04:59] <rsc-> lets see how dcc works
[04:59] <PRGUY85> dcc?
[04:59] <rsc-> argh. it probably won't work over a router.
[04:59] <rsc-> no worries.
[04:59] <rsc-> er
[05:00] <rsc-> okay
[05:00] <rsc-> it worked *shrug*
[05:00] <PRGUY85> both failed
[05:00] <PRGUY85> send again
[05:01] <rsc-> i knew it.
[05:01] <rsc-> http://dump.ambiescent.com/i/Dust-0.2.tar.gz
[05:01] <rsc-> and
[05:01] <rsc-> http://dump.ambiescent.com/i/Dust-extras-0.2.tar.gz
[05:02] <PRGUY85> ok can I drag/drop or do I have to extracT?
[05:03] <rsc-> drag/drop should hopefully work. else, untar to ~/.themes
[05:03] <PRGUY85> worked drag/drop
[05:03] <rsc-> gasp!
[05:04] <rsc-> *snicker*
[05:04] <PRGUY85> what's dust burnt
[05:04] <rsc-> ah, haven't mentioned that
[05:05] <rsc-> "dust burnt" is just a placeholder name for the old Dust where all toolbars are dark
[05:05] <PRGUY85> oh let me see
[05:05] <rsc-> in the main "dust" now, only a few apps have dark toolbars
[05:05] <rsc-> i.e., firefox (w/ theme), nautilus, gedit, evince, eog...
[05:05] <rsc-> basically browser- and viewer-type programs.
[05:05] <rsc-> i explained the rationale in the ML
[05:06] <PRGUY85> ok give me one example of one that has dark toolbars
[05:06] <PRGUY85> and one that hasnt
[05:06] <rsc-> with dark toolbars: the ones above
[05:06] <PRGUY85> ok
[05:06] <rsc-> without: almost everything else. aisleriot, bluefish...
[05:07] <PRGUY85> ok Im seeing that
[05:07] <PRGUY85> I think it's a step in the right direction
[05:08] <PRGUY85> like the scrollbars a whole lot more
[05:08] <rsc-> haha, great to hear.
[05:08] <PRGUY85> and the mix of dark/light is good
[05:08] <PRGUY85> and programs still feel part of a cohesive theme
[05:08] <PRGUY85> great work
[05:09] <PRGUY85> one thing, where can I get all those good wallpapers you use on the theme previews
[05:10] <PRGUY85> I was really trying to get the one from the original mockup and I really like what I saw on the others
[05:10] <rsc-> on my hd :P
[05:10] <rsc-> hmm.
[05:10] <rsc-> I thought i lost the original dust wallpaper
[05:11] <rsc-> I remember I found it on a now-defunct texture site.
[05:11] <rsc-> oh wait.
[05:11] <rsc-> nah.
[05:11] <rsc-> its on sxc.
[05:11] <rsc-> http://sxc.hu/photo/556576
[05:11] <PRGUY85> I'm sending you how intrepid would look with Dust at the moment hehe
[05:11] <rsc-> i recolored it though
[05:11] <rsc-> can you use imageshack.us or similar?
[05:11] <rsc-> i cant receive over irc, i think
[05:11] <PRGUY85> ok ure
[05:12] <PRGUY85> I've got to sign in to get the wallpaper, darn
[05:12] <rsc-> www.bugmenot.com/view/sxc.hu
[05:14] <PRGUY85> rsc-,   http://img219.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshottv0.png
[05:15] <rsc-> must. make. iconset!
[05:15] <PRGUY85> saw the image/
[05:15] <PRGUY85> ?
[05:15] <rsc-> yes
[05:16] <PRGUY85> what do you think of that new wallpaper on intrepid
[05:17] <rsc-> not bad at all.
[05:17] <rsc-> a little stale, but what can you expect
[05:17] <PRGUY85> well not bad but yea it is stale
[05:20] <PRGUY85> any progress on icons?
[05:23] <rsc-> no sorry
[05:23] <rsc-> i'm personally waiting on breathe
[05:25] <PRGUY85> didn't you say must.make.iconset?
[05:35] <rsc-> yes
[05:35] <rsc-> I was hoping to leverage on breathe's work though
[05:37] <PRGUY85> http://mso-chronicles.blogspot.com/2008/09/echo-new-package-releases-first-echo.html
[05:37] <PRGUY85> look at the latest echo theme
[05:37] <PRGUY85> doesn't fit ubuntu in any way but it's quite nice
[05:38] <rsc-> ss?
[05:38] <PRGUY85> ?
[05:39] <PRGUY85> what rsc-?
[05:49] <PRGUY85> rsc-?
[07:49]  * DanaG turns off auto-join, until PulseAudio stops dying... and dying... and dying... and dying... and dying... and dying... (and so on).
[08:58] <Ziroday> kwwii: any news?
[11:19] <Borzo> gidday
[11:23] <carciofo> hi
[11:23] <carciofo> what do you doing artwork?
[11:28] <carciofo> ok
[11:28] <carciofo> i making some artwork
[11:28] <carciofo> but i need help
[11:29] <carciofo> try to convert ogg theodora to avo
[11:29] <carciofo> i
[11:29] <Ziroday> carciofo: an easy way to do that is using avidemux
[11:30] <carciofo> tat nich funzen
[11:30] <Ziroday> sorry I don't speak german
[11:30] <carciofo> k
[11:30] <carciofo> i need to know the settings
[11:31] <Ziroday> carciofo: you might have more luck asking in #ubuntu or your loco's channel for that type of query. Unfortunatly I am not too sure :)
[11:33] <carciofo> i make some art, i said
[11:33] <carciofo> and thats a full time job
[11:33] <carciofo> i always have to looking for
[11:34] <carciofo> what i need, is someone to ask
[11:48] <DannyKing> _MMA_: Good news, I finished that web project I was working on early and I am meeting the client today. If she has no objections with the final result I will have a few days that I can use to work on Breathe before uni - so you should see some work out of me :)
[12:02] <carciofo> hey
[12:03] <DannyKing> hello
[12:04] <carciofo> what a web project is it?
[12:05] <DannyKing> Oh just a small website for a local magazine :) It's not online yet but should be once the client says OK!
[12:35] <thorwil> hi!
[12:44]  * _MMA_ waves
[12:45] <_MMA_> DannyKing: Sounds god.
[12:46] <thorwil> _MMA_: i wrote a mail to Sebastian Porta with feedback on his submissions. very positive reaction from him and he will follow my invitation to join us here
[12:48] <_MMA_> thorwil: Good. Link to his work?
[12:48] <thorwil> _MMA_: Breathe submissions page, duh :)
[12:49] <thorwil> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Submissions
[12:49] <thorwil> the 2nd bin is new
[12:50] <thorwil> _MMA_: he told me he started using inkscape only a few months ago and lacks experience. in this concept, i think the 2nd user-trash is very promising
[12:50] <thorwil> s/concept/context/
[12:50] <_MMA_> Agreed.
[12:51]  * _MMA_ *totally* forgot to subscribe to that page. Does so now.
[12:53] <thorwil> how do we handle feedback to submissions appearing on the wiki without accompanying mail in future?
[12:55] <_MMA_> thorwil: I think we should mandate participation on the ML. Otherwise, we just monitor the wiki diligently.
[12:56] <thorwil> _MMA_: ok. else we would need to add comments right there
[12:58] <_MMA_> I think if we like it, we add it to the /Icons page. Discuss on the ML.
[12:59] <_MMA_> Hell. Ill add the 2nd trash one now if you want.
[12:59] <thorwil> _MMA_: with only few changes, the new trash would be an improvment over Oxygen's already
[12:59] <thorwil> heh
[13:00] <_MMA_> :P
[13:01] <thorwil> _MMA_: i'll post to the list with feedback on that one, combined with pointing out that we would like to see posts to the list on submissions
[13:01] <thorwil> _MMA_: if you are ok with that
[13:02] <_MMA_> Sure. Sounds good.
[13:03] <_MMA_> Hmm...
[13:03] <_MMA_> You guys think I should ask for submissions on both trash states?
[13:03] <_MMA_> s/I/we
[13:04] <thorwil> sure, we need them, or not?
[13:04] <_MMA_> Not sure. :)
[13:05] <thorwil> _MMA_: we needs them! :)
[13:05] <carciofo> does anyone of you idetifying with artist?
[13:06] <thorwil> carciofo: i think you have to explain that question
[13:09] <_MMA_> Ill be back in a bit. Gotta do some house stuff and see my daughter off to school.
[13:09] <kwwii> see you
[13:10]  * _MMA_ expects a folder from kwwii upon return.
[13:10] <_MMA_> :P
[13:54] <_MMA_> thorwil: I'm gonna add the 2nd trash to BZR with notes about needing smaller sizes for now.
[13:55] <_MMA_> You fine with that?
[13:55] <thorwil> _MMA_: needing smaller sizes?
[13:55] <thorwil> _MMA_: btw, saw my note about 22 in 24 px yesterday?
[13:56] <_MMA_> Yeah. The ones that are there all looked like scaled versions of the larger one.
[13:56] <_MMA_> thorwil: Yes. I saw. It's supposed to be like that.
[13:56] <thorwil> _MMA_: i jsut hope that doesn't lead people to make 24px icons
[13:57] <_MMA_> 24px is the same as 22px with padding.
[13:57] <_MMA_> Ill fix is someone does.
[13:57] <thorwil> _MMA_: i actually just send my mail with criticism on that bin and said that i'm not fine with moving it over yet
[13:57] <_MMA_> I could drop the need for creating 24px and just note 22px.
[13:58] <kwwii> one things you should not do (with breathe) is make everything orange :-)
[13:58] <kwwii> _MMA_: some things still need 24x24
[13:58] <thorwil> kwwii: yes. i'm worried about that, but is no surprise that a newcomer starts out like that
[13:58] <darkmatter> yeah... make it crap-brown to match Mark's idea of asthetics ;P
[13:58] <_MMA_> kwwii: Agreed. I was wondering what other colors would fit. Maybe a brown can with green arrows.
[13:59] <_MMA_> darkmatter: No. Not that dark. :)
[13:59] <thorwil> crap-brown can vary a lot ^^
[14:00] <darkmatter> thorwil is correct, it all depends on what you digest the night before ;o
[14:00] <_MMA_> kwwii: 24px would be created, but the artist actually only makes 22px. So we just don't mention 24px to avoid confusion.
[14:00] <kwwii> ahhh, ok
[14:00] <thorwil> darkmatter: eat enough carrots and you can shit toolbars!!
[14:00] <_MMA_> hahahah
[14:00] <darkmatter> haha
[14:01] <thorwil> arg, titlebars of course
[14:02] <thorwil> well, my post about that bin came back and offers a good place for additional notes. like about the color
[14:02]  * thorwil -> coffee
[14:02]  * darkmatter -> nicotine
[14:03] <_MMA_> thorwil: Not that I don't consider the trash final at all. I just think it's fine to replace the Oxygen stuff with something else.
[14:04] <_MMA_> *Note
[14:09]  * _MMA_ notes that these submissions were most likely orange because the current Human one is.
[14:11]  * darkmatter files bug to have the Human icons theme renamed to "Cheap Plastic"
[14:12] <_MMA_> Don't be a crabby fart. ;) Start drawing. :)
[14:12] <darkmatter> :P
[14:13] <darkmatter> I am drawing... a shitload of UI mockups ;)
[14:14]  * _MMA_ sends a unblockable three-stooges eye poke darkmatter's way.
[14:15] <darkmatter> on paper of course, less hassle to make revisions. then I can start on the inkscape renditions
[14:16] <darkmatter> bah... *send an unblockable gay convict to help _MMA_ relax*
[14:16] <_MMA_> "Man Troy. You sure got here fast." :)
[14:17] <darkmatter> ROFL
[14:17] <_MMA_> :P
[14:34] <aantn> blah
[14:34] <aantn> getting paper mockups onto the computer is the most difficult part
[14:37] <kwwii> _MMA_: http://sinecera.de/new.png
[14:38] <Ziroday> kwwii: any news for me?
[14:39] <_MMA_> kwwii: Isn't that still kinda saying Tango to you? It kinda lost that sharp feel it had.
[14:42] <_MMA_> kwwii: The outline on the front-flap on the folder has become more pronounced. I gotta say. I'm still feeling KenV's folder but maybe with an added row of dots.
[14:47] <kwwii> Ziroday: nothing yet, it will take some time, we have some new members of the team so they'll have to get up to speed before anything can be decided
[14:47] <Ziroday> kwwii: sweet, thanks :)
[14:47]  * Ziroday has plenty of time
[14:48]  * aantn tries to decide whether he should fix some UA bugs or play with clutter
[15:06] <_MMA_> kwwii: I updates the folder. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons You don't think this will fly? I'm inclined to go with it for now. Maybe let us all sit on it until something striking comes along?
[15:06] <_MMA_> *updated
[15:07] <_MMA_> I just added the other row of dots.
[15:08] <thorwil> that additional row of dots kinda runs into the edge of the front
[15:09] <thorwil> to me, the only good thing on the new one is that the magic white light on the bottom is gone
[15:10] <_MMA_> A big detail which I was told Mark liked.
[15:10]  * DannyKing just got back
[15:10] <DannyKing> I miss anything?
[15:11] <thorwil> _MMA_: i don't mean the glow, but the white line between shadow and folder
[15:11] <DannyKing> I like the new bin too, although I don't like the colour
[15:11] <_MMA_> thorwil: Oh! Gotcha.
[15:12] <thorwil> DannyKing: seems no one here is fond of the orange there. best thing you can do is to speak up on the mailing list, right in the new thread
[15:12] <thorwil> DannyKing: ideally with a specific suggestion
[15:12] <DannyKing> You think I'll offend anyone if I submit an alternate design?
[15:12] <thorwil> no
[15:13] <_MMA_> Not at all.
[15:13] <thorwil> DannyKing: anyone who would be offended by that wouldn't be in the right place here
[15:13] <DannyKing> I'll give it a shot after that final meeting with the client (it's in an hour) assuming she doesn't want me to modify anything
[15:13] <DannyKing> great :)
[15:13] <DannyKing> I like the perspective of the bin
[15:14] <_MMA_> Exactly. There should be (or we try not to) no egos here. Everything is up for revision/change at this point.
[15:16]  * DannyKing wants to spend some time studying other main icon sets before starting work (human, tango, crystal, oxygen, OS X & Vista) - any other themes I should look in to?
[15:18] <_MMA_> thorwil: Refresh in a min. Removed the white line. I'm not sure the dots being near the edge is such an issue. Moving them around to miss that edge doesn't look to work either. Just feels odd.
[15:19] <_MMA_> Ok. Change has hit wiki.
[15:20] <DannyKing> thorwil: can I ask what your feedback was to sebastian?
[15:20] <thorwil> _MMA_: better. the dots are only good for making the transparency more obvious. and that obviously only above 48px ... :/
[15:21] <_MMA_> thorwil: Agreed. It will need some chat.
[15:21] <thorwil> DannyKing: Painting the Oxygen trash bin orange is a bit too simple. I don't think it's a good base, as the reflections on it are not convincing.
[15:21] <thorwil> DannyKing: The trash icon should not carry the Ubuntu logo, as it may not be associated with trash ;)
[15:21] <DannyKing> heh good point
[15:22] <thorwil> DannyKing: The angle/perspective of the dictionary is interesting. The shading is rather good. Writing "Dictionary" on it doesn't help in all sizes up to 48 px, but it will rarely appear larger than that.
[15:22] <_MMA_> I do feel this current one is better than kwwii's revision. Sorry Ken. It just smacks of Tango hard. :(
[15:22]  * DannyKing agrees with all of that
[15:22] <thorwil> i'm with _MMA_ there
[15:22] <thorwil> bbl
[15:22] <DannyKing> what did Ken revise?
[15:23] <_MMA_> http://sinecera.de/new.png vs. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/BreatheIconSet/Icons
[15:23] <DannyKing> thanks
[15:24] <DannyKing> Was it decided to do away with the curl on page icons?
[15:25]  * DannyKing would like to work on a page icon first perhaps
[15:27] <_MMA_> DannyKing: That's up to whoever submits ideas. It's wide open.
[15:30] <DannyKing> Back in a while, meeting time
[15:30]  * _MMA_ putters around the house for a bit.
[15:49]  * _MMA_ goes to cut the lawn. bbs
[16:27] <Cimi>  those icons look totally blurred
[16:28] <Cimi> at 48px and less
[16:43]  * DannyKing does the 'I got paid' dance
[16:46] <rsc-> time now to treat the boys out to a drink and some pizza, yeah?
[16:46] <rsc-> ;)
[16:46] <DannyKing> hehe
[17:59] <DannyKing> Does anyone know where I can find that web app that lets you compare icons together in a theme? (I think jimmac made it?)
[17:59] <DannyKing> I can't find it anywhere
[18:06] <_MMA_> http://users.freedesktop.org/~jimmac/icons/
[18:06] <DannyKing> thanks :)
[18:23]  * DannyKing downloads breathe from lp
[18:26] <_MMA_> \m/
[18:27] <DannyKing> bzr checkout https://launchpad.net/breathe-icon-set    right?
[18:30] <_MMA_> Depends on the branch you want. https://code.launchpad.net/breathe-icon-set
[18:30] <_MMA_> For trunk: "Get this branch: bzr branch lp:breathe-icon-set"
[18:30] <kwwii> bzr checkout lp:breathe-icon-set
[18:30] <kwwii> or branch, and then push
[18:31] <DannyKing> thanks
[18:49] <DannyKing> Is it OK to use patterns in Inkscape for breathe icons? Can pattern images be embedded in Inkscape SVGs?
[18:49] <_MMA_> They can but I'd rather not.
[18:50] <DannyKing> I think it'll be hard to create hyper-realistic icons without using texture
[18:50] <DannyKing> Paper, for example, needs to be grainy
[18:50] <_MMA_> Trace the texture.
[18:51] <DannyKing> hmm, okay I'll play around with that
[18:51] <_MMA_> k
[19:55] <_MMA_> Messin' around. http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3586/screenshotgr2.png
[19:56]  * _MMA_ notes that he has his fonts/icons set pretty small.
[19:56] <thorwil> looks like default sizes to me
[19:57] <thorwil> _MMA_: seems like the folders and Dust are a pretty good much for not being made for each other
[19:58] <_MMA_> Oh well. Just what I had on. :P
[19:58] <DannyKing> hi thorwil
[19:59] <thorwil> hi DannyKing
[19:59]  * DannyKing is working on the generic page icon
[20:00]  * thorwil has been wasting his time on https://code.launchpad.net/~mudlet-makers/mudlet/artwork
[20:01] <_MMA_> thorwil: Think I need to send a email about my upcoming lack of availability?
[20:02] <thorwil> _MMA_: yes. the inmates have to know they are running the asylum now :)
[20:02] <DannyKing> _MMA_: how long is that 1for?
[20:02] <DannyKing> *for
[20:02] <_MMA_> :P
[20:03] <_MMA_> 4-5 weeks. I *should* be able to attend to things. Just not sit here all day and be able to chat.
[20:03] <thorwil> _MMA_: well, if we will only notice on irc, no need to announce on the list
[20:04] <_MMA_> Ok
[20:55] <DannyKing> kwwii: you around? Am I right in understanding that stroke/lines should be avoided at all costs for an icon?
[20:56] <kwwii> DannyKing: not necessarily but as a general rule it is not a bad idea
[20:56] <kwwii> if you use lines correctly it can work though
[20:57] <DannyKing> I want to have a dotted line with ~100 dots. As a line I could just set the stroke style, but as individual dots it'd increase the svg complexity a lot - which is a better scenario?
[20:57] <DannyKing> (it's the perforated part of some paper)
[20:58] <kwwii> you could use it there, but be aware that the number of dots will change with the size rendered
[20:58] <DannyKing> mmm, that's a good point
[20:59] <DannyKing> I'm assuming it's a bad thing to have very complex svgs as icons?
[20:59] <thorwil> DannyKing: don't worry too much about svg complexity. they get rendered to png anyway
[20:59] <DannyKing> but scalable is used too sometimes isn't it thorwil ?
[21:00] <_MMA_> Only above 48px.
[21:00] <kwwii> try to keep the svg as simple as possible
[21:00] <DannyKing> Well at anything lower than 48px I wouldn't have the line dotted, it'd just be a blurred line
[21:00] <kwwii> learning to draw in svg means learning to use complex gradients instead of just layering objects
[21:01] <_MMA_> kwwii: At what size? Sometimes size dictates detail level.
[21:01] <_MMA_> Ahh... Got ya.
[21:01] <kwwii> _MMA_: definitely
[21:01] <kwwii> the small sizes are very simple icons
[21:02] <kwwii> making a 16x16 pixel icon is like trying to trick to the eye to see more than is really there
[21:02] <_MMA_> Well I mostly had 256px in mind.
[21:02] <_MMA_> I didn't want to shy away from detail at 256px.
[21:03] <DannyKing> _MMA_: I'm working at 256 with ultra detail and I'll reduce detail exponentially at smaller sizes
[21:03] <_MMA_> Exactly.
[21:03] <kwwii> making the 256 version is really hard...I am not sure if it is a good idea
[21:04] <DannyKing> kwwii: because of the detail?
[21:04] <_MMA_> kwwii: Im gonna kick you. We already talked at length about this. We're doing it. :)
[21:04] <kwwii> DannyKing: yes
[21:04]  * DannyKing is hoping breathe /will/ be hard to make... hopefully it'll show in the final result
[21:05] <kwwii> _MMA_: and I was against it to begin with
[21:05] <PRGUY85> hello all
[21:05] <thorwil> DannyKing: consider starting with 48px
[21:05] <DannyKing> thorwil: and then adding detail rather than subtracting?#
[21:05] <_MMA_> No!
[21:05] <thorwil> DannyKing: yes. easier that way
[21:06] <_MMA_> kwwii: What?! No way! We talked about having even bigger. 512px. Like Oxygen.
[21:06] <kwwii> oxygen is 128x128
[21:06] <_MMA_> thorwil: I don't agree. Start at 256. Work down.
[21:06]  * _MMA_ looks at his source.
[21:06] <kwwii> _MMA_: you cannot just work down, it won't work that way
[21:07] <kwwii> unless some of the small icons look totally different
[21:07] <_MMA_> Sure. Why not?
[21:07]  * DannyKing will continue working at 256 on this icon and will try starting at 48 on the next icon and compare which feels easist
[21:07] <thorwil> _MMA_: i'm just done with working downwards once. after this experience, i have to encourage the other direction
[21:07] <kwwii> there is going to have to be a bit of leniency in the angle anyway
[21:07] <kwwii> you will waste a lot of time making a nice big icon which can never be small
[21:08] <kwwii> and then you will make a small version and from that a bigger version (usually)
[21:08] <_MMA_> So? It will be used above 48px.
[21:08] <kwwii> if you know exactly what you are going to do for the small version, ok, that is somoething different
[21:09] <thorwil> good night :)
[21:09] <PRGUY85> same thorwil
[21:09] <DannyKing> night thorwil :)
[21:09] <PRGUY85> como estas DannyKing
[21:10] <_MMA_> I worry about the detail level of the sizes matching. Also the 256 size is creating for the future.
[21:10] <_MMA_> Um... That didnt come out right.
[21:10] <DannyKing> bien, cansado - termino un projecto por un cliento este madrugada, y tu?
[21:10] <PRGUY85> cansado tambien estudiando para examenes de medicina.
[21:10] <PRGUY85> Me canse de Fedora jaja.
[21:10] <_MMA_> The 256 size shouldn't look like a 48px image scaled up.
[21:11] <DannyKing> jo, que duro!
[21:13] <DannyKing> kwwii: are you happy with the goal of 'hyper-realism'?
[21:13] <PRGUY85> I like the hyper-realism
[21:14] <_MMA_> kwwii: In the end, what I have in the folder icons SVG now at 48px isn't right. Its the 256 scaled down. It needs someone to revise that size and maybe the smaller ones. If we create 5 separate icons, so be it. But not creating hires sizes is a deal-breaker for me.
[21:16] <kwwii> DannyKing: definitely
[21:16] <DannyKing> cool :)
[21:17] <kwwii> _MMA_: yes, for folder icons and the mimetype template and important apps and all actions you will need different smaller sizes, not just scaled down big versions
[21:18] <_MMA_> Exactly. We got past that ideas days ago. So now you're confusing things.
[21:18] <darkmatter> hyper-realism for what? Icons? If so it's a bad idea for anything at 48 or under, because you end up with an unregognizable blob of crap, kinda like tango but blurry
[21:19] <_MMA_> We even talked about changing perspective for smaller sizes where needed.
[21:19] <PRGUY85> I guess you already spoke about this but the new breathe trash icon submission is 10x better
[21:20] <_MMA_> PRGUY85: Late to the party.
[21:20] <DannyKing> PRGUY85: Yeah I really like the perspective
[21:20] <kwwii> darkmatter: well, look at how oxygen deals with it
[21:20] <PRGUY85> _MMA_ I imagined
[21:20] <kwwii> things naturally get simpler in the small versions
[21:20] <DannyKing> Although I don't like the colour and I'd like to add much, much more detail to it
[21:20] <PRGUY> _MMA_ , dropped the 85 so you don't get depressed
[21:21] <darkmatter> kwwii: but alas, that removes the 'hyper-realism' definition :)
[21:21] <DannyKing> darkmatter: I agree. I think the idea is to have hyper realistic icons at sizes above 48px (not inclusive) and to have much more simplistic icons below
[21:21] <andreasn> the most commonly used icon size in GNOME is 24x24, 256x256 is used in Gnome Do, but not many places apart from that
[21:21] <kwwii> darkmatter: not when you are talking about having 256x256 icons as well as 128x128
[21:22] <kwwii> erm, 64x64
[21:22] <kwwii> andreasn: thank you
[21:23] <darkmatter> 64x64 is very sensitive waters foe realism. not arguing, just sayin if you mess it up, I KILL U! :P
[21:23] <DannyKing> lol
[21:24]  * _MMA_ is thinking about the future with 256px sizes.
[21:25] <_MMA_> Im gonna kill the next gmail user that top-posts.
[21:27] <kwwii> _MMA_: maybe you could add it in bold at the top of the wiki :-)
[21:27] <PRGUY> _MMA_ I think people don't even need to put the body of the post they are replying to
[21:27] <PRGUY> just the RE: title
[21:27] <PRGUY> or at least italics or something, its quite confusing
[21:27] <kwwii> PRGUY: actually, that is important...but only the parts you are replying to
[21:27] <kwwii> the rest of it can be <snip>'d out
[21:27] <_MMA_> PRGUY: For technical chats, it's important to have the body there.
[21:28] <kwwii> the point is to relay information in a clear way
[21:28] <kwwii> the needless parts can be cut out without loss of information
[21:29]  * DannyKing replies on the list
[21:29] <_MMA_> DannyKing: It's pointless to do anymore.
[21:30] <_MMA_> We need to add it to new users subscription notice.
[21:30] <DannyKing> hmm? You mean no ones reading it?
[21:30] <_MMA_> I could rant weekly about the amount of top-posting.
[21:31] <_MMA_> Meaning, you get a notice when you subscribe right? We need to add notes about etiquette there.
[21:32] <DannyKing> Oh, no I mean I was replying about the use of colour in the trash icon
[21:32] <_MMA_> Ahh...
[21:33] <DannyKing> Howdee rsc-
[21:33] <rsc-> heyhey
[21:34] <_MMA_> Hola
[21:34] <rsc-> hows it going?
[21:35] <_MMA_> Sitting round. Actin' like we know what we're talkin' about. :P
[21:37] <DannyKing> hehe
[21:37] <DannyKing> There's been some talk over what sizes should be used
[21:37] <_MMA_> (on the Breathe icon set)
[21:37] <PRGUY> hi rsc-
[21:40] <_MMA_> kwwii: You wanna take a stab at the sizes under the 256 size for the folder? I think 32 and down for the most part but needs tweaks for sure.
[21:41] <_MMA_> And nobody has replied to the question of dropping shadows under certain sizes.
[21:42] <DannyKing> What question sorry _MMA_ ?
[21:42] <DannyKing> Was that on the list?
[21:42] <PRGUY> _MMA_, what do you mean, like not including shadows for smaller icons?
[21:42] <rsc-> hey prguy
[21:42] <DannyKing> Actually I think it should be the other way round, PRGUY
[21:43] <rsc-> re: breathe, you gotta squeeze it in the guidelines: "easy on the orange!"
[21:43] <PRGUY> rsc-, been using the new Dust. Like it.
[21:43] <rsc-> all of the new icons are orange :))
[21:43] <rsc-> PRGUY, thanks. :)
[21:43] <DannyKing> rsc-: heh yes
[21:43] <rsc-> PRGUY, just the original vanilla Dust?
[21:43] <_MMA_> PRGUY: Exactly. At smaller sizes, wouldn't a shadow be a detail easily lost?
[21:44] <rsc-> i haven't seen the q on dropping shadows, but i agree
[21:44] <rsc-> also, dropping perspective
[21:44] <_MMA_> Its on the wiki.
[21:44] <DannyKing> well, yes - but you also need to have shadow to make it stand out more because it's so small
[21:44] <PRGUY> _MMA_ I believe so, I don't notice shadows on smaller icons from a user perspective.
[21:44]  * DannyKing goes and looks at oxygen smaller icons
[21:44] <_MMA_> DannyKing: I think the color of the theme would be a bigger impact.
[21:44] <PRGUY> rsc- , I believe vanilla Dust with the new scrollbars, the default.
[21:44] <DannyKing> _MMA_: re the list message?
[21:45] <rsc-> okay
[21:45] <PRGUY> I am with rsc-, there should be brown/orange hints but it shouldn't overwork the theme.
[21:45] <_MMA_> PRGUY: Agreed, but Im leaving that up to artists for now.
[21:45] <rsc-> that's one flaw that the original Human icon set has.
[21:45] <DannyKing> That means using objects that are brown/orange in real life, then
[21:45] <rsc-> "oh, we need a color for the close button." .. "how about orange?"
[21:45] <rsc-> and for the back button.
[21:46] <_MMA_> Im sure we'll get to a point where we have enough icons with the use of orange that says "Ubuntu".
[21:46] <rsc-> and for the trash, the folders, the kitchen sink..
[21:46] <_MMA_> Then we can try to dictate some color use.
[21:46] <PRGUY> well I think folders at the very least should have orange in them.
[21:46] <_MMA_> Yes
[21:47] <PRGUY> one thing that should be updated and differentiated are the media icons, like hard drive.  They really just look like a white block of nothing.
[21:47] <_MMA_> DannyKing: The dropping shadow thing isn't on the ML. I would hope people interested would also keep an eye on the wiki.
[21:47] <rsc-> actually i don't want orange on the folders myself, but unfortunately it's necessary
[21:47] <DannyKing> rsc-: why is it?
[21:48] <_MMA_> DannyKing: I'm sure Mark will want it.
[21:48] <_MMA_> If we at least want a chance at default.
[21:48] <DannyKing> Can we use orange cardboard...?
[21:48] <DannyKing> as in... not shiny?
[21:48] <PRGUY> not bad DannyKing hehe.
[21:48] <PRGUY> like more of a matte look
[21:48] <DannyKing> If my folders on my desk started shining that that I'd run away screaming
[21:48] <DannyKing> *shining like that
[21:49] <PRGUY> I think it would be more elegant, dropping the shiny factor.
[21:49] <_MMA_> DannyKing: I don't know. For now, I'm keeping whats there. I'm sure we will all feel different 6 months from now.
[21:49] <PRGUY> I thought rsc- icon mockup was great at least in terms of color.
[21:49] <DannyKing> Yeah. I guess we should wait until we have more icons, then we'll have a larger variety of styles to chose from
[21:49] <DannyKing> *choose
[21:50] <_MMA_> DannyKing: And the current folder isnt shiny. Just has a glow.
[21:50] <rsc-> PRGUY, we can't use it for Breathe
[21:50] <PRGUY> rsc-, reason being?
[21:50] <DannyKing> _MMA_: yes true, shiny is the wrong word... but my point stands
[21:51] <_MMA_> DannyKing: That glow was something I was told Mark likes.
[21:51] <rsc-> PRGUY, thorwil wants a chance at being default.
[21:51] <rsc-> PRGUY, the Human icon set was commissioned by Mark to a few designers. so the human folder, at least, will tell us what Mark wants [at one point in time]
[21:51] <rsc-> so orange it is.
[21:52] <rsc-> also, presonally I think the breathe folder should be tweaked at lower sizes to remove the gradient. The extravagant gradient is okay at large sizes, but obscures the image at lower sizes
[21:52] <_MMA_> rsc-: Wanna have a crack at it?
[21:53] <_MMA_> I'm satisfied with the 256 size for now. But the smaller sizes need work.
[21:53] <rsc-> i've personally never used Inkscape for makign icons before :P
[21:54] <DannyKing> rsc-: you'll love it ;)
[21:54] <rsc-> how do i do this pixel-perfectly?
[21:54] <_MMA_> Agreed.
[21:54] <PRGUY> it's funny how we all cater to Mark, specially in a first name basis
[21:54] <rsc-> and zomg wow inkscape has FOLDERS?
[21:54] <DannyKing> rsc-: how do you mean?
[21:54] <_MMA_> *cater*?
[21:54] <DannyKing> PRGUY: notice that I don't ;p
[21:54] <rsc-> how on earth do you do that?
[21:54] <rsc-> (sorry noob!)
[21:55] <DannyKing> kwwii: I managed to get the dotty effect using a very thin rectangle and a reflecting gradient :) Thanks for the tip
[21:57] <rsc-> hmm, the outlines aren't strokes?
[21:58] <DannyKing> strokes are evil I'm told :)
[21:58] <_MMA_> rsc-: *Sometimes* it's good if it's not. Depends on how you manage things.
[21:59] <rsc-> *gives up*
[21:59] <rsc-> :P
[21:59] <PRGUY> excuse me when you say you want a chance at being default, you mean this release (Intrepid)? or Jaunty?
[21:59] <_MMA_> No way.
[21:59] <rsc-> PRGUY, it won't be ready for this release
[21:59] <DannyKing> PRGUY: no particular date, just... a chance some time
[21:59] <_MMA_> For either.
[21:59] <PRGUY> oh ok
[21:59] <rsc-> and as far as I know, there's no target release to aim for
[22:00] <PRGUY> good, that's what I thought
[22:00] <DannyKing> Although I read several hundred times on the list archives that default was not a goal, just a happy event if it did happen?
[22:00] <_MMA_> Exactly.
[22:00] <PRGUY> yea default is a word I think has been exiled from the team in a way
[22:01] <_MMA_> Im open to taking some cues to make it happen, just not having everything dictated by Canonical/Mark.
[22:01] <DannyKing> Shouldn't we be aiming to please Mr. Shuttleworth's target audience of "web savy, professional youths" rather than Mr. Shuttleworth himself?
[22:02] <_MMA_> It's a bit of both. ;) Mostly the former.
[22:02] <rsc-> _MMA_, non-orange folders *grin8
[22:02]  * DannyKing wonders if his walls are all orange ;)
[22:02] <_MMA_> Brown. ;)
[22:02] <DannyKing> hehe
[22:02] <rsc-> DannyKing, when he made the decision to make the folders orange, I assume this was his way of persuing his vision of aiming for the target audience.
[22:02] <rsc-> at least I'd assume so!
[22:03] <_MMA_> Not *everything* needs to have target users in mind. We *can* do things because we think its cool ya know. :)
[22:03] <DannyKing> I just don't see the connection between any colour at all and web savy professionals
[22:03] <DannyKing> _MMA_: yes that's pretty important too, now you mention it :)
[22:03] <DannyKing> If something is built with passion it'll be used with passion
[22:04] <rsc-> IMHO, there's gotta be at least some higher-level vision in mind.
[22:04] <_MMA_> Man. This should be kinda fun. :)
[22:04] <rsc-> I think it's cool to make a trash can that's shaped like a robot, but obviously that won't fit Breathe's vision.
[22:04] <_MMA_> rsc-: Trust me. There's more of it than ever before going on with this.
[22:04] <DannyKing> lol
[22:05] <DannyKing> Except it's still not well defined
[22:06] <_MMA_> As far as the trash goes kwwii and I liked the squared one in human. So its good we have the current submission.
[22:06] <_MMA_> I don't wanna get too bogged down in endless discussion though. We, even now, have way more thought in this than most other ubuntu-art projects.
[22:07] <_MMA_> And we will still refine. If you have info to add to the wiki, please do. I can't be the only one.
[22:08] <DannyKing> I agree. We should get some icons first so we have something to refer to, then discuss properly
[22:11] <DannyKing> Hmm, is it bad that I'm adding layers to the template _MMA_ ? (e.g. I like to have one layer for basic shapes, one for shadows, one for fine detail, etc)
[22:14] <_MMA_> DannyKing: As long as it's above the plate layer, I *think* you will be fine.
[22:15] <_MMA_> BBut even that will get damn complex doing it that way with all the different sizes.
[22:15] <DannyKing> I was a little confused as to which layer was meant to be drawn on. Is it the path/template layer? I just added one above it
[22:15] <_MMA_> I guess we'll look at it when you are further along.
[22:15] <DannyKing> I'm happy to combine it all into one layer at the end
[22:15] <_MMA_> path/template yes.
[22:15] <DannyKing> And is that meant to be renamed to the name of the icon?
[22:16] <_MMA_> Yes. Should say that somewhere.
[22:16] <_MMA_> If you grab the mime file that already there, it should be set up for you already.
[22:16] <_MMA_> That's what should have been done.
[22:17] <_MMA_> If I have a base icon already on the wiki, grab that SVG from now on. As I will already have set up all the proper names and metadata.
[22:18] <DannyKing> in the Breathe/scalable/mimetypes folder? Doing bzr checkout lp:breathe-icon-set gave me lots of empty folders... :\
[22:18] <DannyKing> K, will do
[22:18] <rsc-> how do you get layer folders in inkscape?
[22:18] <_MMA_> It should be empty. Thats setup for something else.
[22:18] <DannyKing> rsc-: layer folders?
[22:18] <DannyKing> _MMA_: ahh okay.
[22:19] <DannyKing> _MMA_: so it was the source_svg folder you were talking about?
[22:19] <_MMA_> rsc-: No folders but you can have sublayers.
[22:19] <_MMA_> Same thing eventually.
[22:19] <rsc-> how do you do that?
[22:19] <rsc-> http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/3562/screenshot1qj1.png
[22:19] <DannyKing> Oh. Yeah it's not very obvious - make a new layer and choose "as sublayer of current"
[22:19] <DannyKing> So, click a layer, then click the add layer button
[22:20] <DannyKing> then it should ask where you want the layer placed
[22:28] <rsc-> can you move layers to be a sublayer of another?
[22:28] <rsc-> i mean if i made a toplevel layer
[22:28] <rsc-> is there a way to make it a sublayer?
[22:29] <DannyKing> No, you have to make a new layer and copy paste :(
[22:30] <rsc-> haha.
[22:53] <DannyKing> rsc-: how's it going?
[22:53] <DannyKing> I put in a blueprint at launchpad to have better layer controls
[22:53] <DannyKing> I wish I could drag and drop them around
[22:54] <_MMA_> +1
[22:54] <DannyKing> Actually you might be able to make a layer into a sublayer via the XML editor
[22:56] <_MMA_> That heightens the probability it could be added to the GUI.
[23:13]  * kwwii goes to bed
[23:13] <DannyKing> night
[23:14] <_MMA_> Night KEn.
[23:29] <DannyKing> Hmm, Icon is starting to take shape now
[23:31] <_MMA_> :D
[23:32] <DannyKing> Just looking for a texture to make the paper look a little better. I'll play around with tracing it
[23:40] <_MMA_> bbl. Dinner time. (going out)
[23:40] <DannyKing> k, enjoy