[00:21]  * DannyKing goes to edit the wiki
[00:45] <DannyKing> _MMA_:  I've added my icon to the Discussions page. I'm not sure what I think of it. I like the detail (you'll notice the edges are slightly bent in places) but it may be too grungy / dark.
[00:45] <DannyKing> I'm off to bed. night all
[00:54] <Cimi> kwwii, ping
[01:11] <mrooney> kwwii: around by any chance?
[03:37] <rsc-> :D
[03:37] <_MMA_> :(
[03:38] <rsc-> :(?
[03:39] <_MMA_> Just throwing up the opposite of yours.
[03:39] <_MMA_> :)
[03:39] <rsc-> haha.
[03:39] <rsc-> dust 0.2 is out btw if anyone is following the developments.
[03:40] <rsc-> it finally (I think!) maintains a good compatibility with the core applications i defined, so i guess its finally time to make it "stable"
[03:40]  * _MMA_ is slightly bored. Should watch a movie.
[03:40] <_MMA_> rsc-: Awesome. :)
[03:41] <_MMA_> brb. updates
[03:41] <PRGUY85> rsc-, I was thinking, do you need any help with gdm? At least, idea-wise?
[03:42] <rsc-> PRGUY85, 0.2 is out btw
[03:42] <PRGUY85> rsc-, is that the one I'm using?
[03:43] <rsc-> yeah
[03:43] <rsc-> i cant remember if i changed anything else
[03:43] <rsc-> but anyway, for the GDM, I was hoping to do it myself.
[03:43] <rsc-> gotta get time to do it though
[03:43] <rsc-> the thing is, I dont want the GDM to just be a recycling of the old Dust elements (dark toolbars etc).
[03:43] <rsc-> it needs something new.
[03:43] <rsc-> for instance
[03:44] <rsc-> http://dump.ambiescent.com/i/dust-0929-alt-styles.png
[03:44] <rsc-> that textured paper-y thing, that's something not found in the current theme.
[03:44] <rsc-> but, nonetheless, fits it well (IMHO)
[03:44] <rsc-> i think the GDM will need something like that, gotta think of what it is for now :)
[03:45] <rsc-> i can do mockups but as for packaging a functioning GDM theme, taht im not sure about :/
[03:45] <PRGUY85> well a good gdm should have the same default wallpaper for the theme
[03:45] <rsc-> not necessarily IMHO
[03:45] <rsc-> I guess thats just me and how I dont like the "lets use this everywhere" ideology.
[03:45] <rsc-> perhaps a derivative of it, but not exactly the same.
[03:46] <PRGUY85> hmm, well I think so.  To me it feels like you are just there and need password.
[03:46] <PRGUY85> but with a different wallpaper, it feels detached.
[03:46] <rsc-> the Win XP manages to do that well -- the GDM (its equivalent at least) looks different from the rest of the interface but somehow still connects.
[03:46] <rsc-> it felt like a "doorway"
[03:47] <PRGUY85> true, well do you think you should issue a default wallpaper, or just try to mesh with whatever Intrepid throws?
[03:47] <rsc-> forget intrepid.
[03:47] <rsc-> dust is outside intrepid
[03:48] <rsc-> i would want a default wallpaper but honestly i dont know what that is yet :/
[03:48] <PRGUY85> well I really liked the bark
[03:48] <PRGUY85> didn't you use Rocks once?
[03:48] <PRGUY85> also, I mentioned Intrepid since Dust is for Ubuntu and well Intrepid is the next release.
[03:48] <rsc-> yeah
[03:49] <rsc-> I liked the rocks
[03:50] <rsc-> i just wonder if there's something else out there.
[03:50] <PRGUY85> where can I find that wallpaper?  I used the Mac one with Dust one time.
[03:50] <rsc-> check this out
[03:50] <PRGUY85> the Mac Rocks hhee
[03:50] <rsc-> http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/743/gaiarw4.jpg
[03:50] <rsc-> whoa.
[03:50] <rsc-> that wallpaper fits the theme so damn well.
[03:50] <rsc-> i just wonder if there's something like that for dust
[03:51] <rsc-> it feels like it was that very wallpaper that spawned the idea of that theme
[03:51] <rsc-> i need something like that for Dust, but I have *no* idea what that is right now :)
[03:51] <PRGUY85> yea
[03:51] <rsc-> (if i dont find it, i'm settling with rocks)
[03:51] <PRGUY85> send the rocks
[03:51] <rsc-> i gotta redo the wallpaper version
[03:51] <rsc-> with my color corrections and such
[03:51] <rsc-> but lemme find the stock photo
[03:52] <PRGUY85> ok
[03:52] <PRGUY85> Im currently using Intrepid on my laptop to test it.  It works, theme works too although well its the same old.
[03:52] <rsc-> same old?
[03:53] <PRGUY85> well same old Human theme.
[03:53] <rsc-> sxc.hu/photo/556576
[03:53] <PRGUY85> with a bland yet functional wallpaper at the moment.
[03:54] <rsc-> http://dump.ambiescent.com/i/Rocks-2048x1536-rsc-edit.jpg <-- my edit, source unknown
[03:55] <PRGUY85> hmm...
[03:55] <PRGUY85> its nice yet I think it's too busy.
[03:55] <PRGUY85> yet I don't think those were the rocks
[03:56] <PRGUY85> more like those
[03:56] <PRGUY85> http://markinhusp.deviantart.com/art/Rocks-72040885
[03:59] <rsc-> how do i make gdm themes?
[04:00] <PRGUY85> well I just know how to change backgrounds on existing themes.  However you could always do it by analizing a current gdm theme code.
[04:00] <PRGUY85> and working backwards.
[04:00] <rsc-> i dont know
[04:00] <PRGUY85> http://live.gnome.org/GnomeArt/Tutorials/GdmThemes
[04:01] <rsc-> i dont remember ever using rocks
[04:01] <rsc-> but if i did
[04:01] <rsc-> i probably used the ones from Leopard
[04:01] <PRGUY85> the ones I sent?
[04:02] <rsc-> yeah
[04:03] <PRGUY85> hey GDM doesn't look that hard.  Hardest thing is just creating icons for it
[04:03] <PRGUY85> I'm analizing new wave's current gdm
[04:06] <PRGUY85> its quite easy, it's just creating the artwork for icons. box and just linking the file to them
[04:06] <PRGUY85> so gdm displays those graphics
[04:12] <PRGUY85> rsc-, current human volume icon on taskbar does not properly work with Dust
[05:19] <rsc-> UGH, pixmap insensitive toolbar buttons are ugly
[05:40] <darkmatter> rsc-: that would depend solely on the design of the button
[05:45] <rsc-> lemme show
[05:46] <rsc-> http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5576/insensitivesuckswd0.jpg
[05:46] <rsc-> ARGH
[05:47] <darkmatter> oh, you mean the icons on the insensitive... yeah
[05:48] <darkmatter> there's a patch for that... just a sec
[05:49] <darkmatter> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/gtk2-engine-pixbuf+(Patched)?content=77783
[05:54] <rsc-> GTK needs a better pixbuf engine.
[05:55] <rsc-> nice patch but i dont want any special dependencies for it :/
[05:55] <darkmatter> ahhh
[05:56] <darkmatter> yeah.. pixbuf is actually a very good engine, but the problem is that even though its maintained, it hasn't actually been updated in ages
[05:57] <darkmatter> in other words... it's old
[05:58] <rsc-> also.. it didnt change anything
[05:58] <rsc-> maybe i gotta log out first
[08:49]  * DannyKing arrives on the scene
[08:49]  * DannyKing goes to get coffee
[11:30] <DannyKing> Je;;p
[11:30] <DannyKing> er
[11:30] <DannyKing> *hello
[13:46] <DannyKing> hi _MMA_
[13:48] <_MMA_> Yo
[13:48] <_MMA_> DannyKing: Your torn sheet of paper icon is a SVG?
[13:48] <DannyKing> yep
[13:49] <_MMA_> Looks good.
[13:49] <DannyKing> Thanks :) The ripped side took ages
[13:49] <_MMA_> Ya think we should add lines?
[13:49] <DannyKing> doesn't look fantastic on dark backgrounds though
[13:50] <DannyKing> _MMA_: I considered it, yeah. I thought it might look good (perhaps only for the larger sizes)
[13:50] <_MMA_> Sure.
[13:50] <DannyKing> Oh I edited the front page of the wiki a little
[13:51] <_MMA_> I saw.
[13:51] <DannyKing> Agree / disagree?
[13:51] <_MMA_> Anyone subscribed to the page get notified.
[13:51] <_MMA_> Loos fine. No problem here.
[13:51] <DannyKing> ah ok. I subscribed too
[13:51] <_MMA_> *Looks
[13:51] <DannyKing> cool
[13:51]  * DannyKing is trying to get a new printer working in Ubuntu
[13:51] <_MMA_> Brand?
[13:52] <DannyKing> Samsung
[13:52] <DannyKing> It's supported apparently
[13:52] <_MMA_> k
[13:52] <_MMA_> I've had *awesome* luck with HP.
[13:52] <DannyKing> Yeah?
[13:53] <DannyKing> I've heard some just work in Ubuntu now, easier than the Windows install, heh
[13:53] <andreasn> _MMA_: I tried to call HP to check if their printer would work in Ubuntu before I bought my printer. The dude answered "uhhh...I don't know man, did you try google?"
[13:54] <andreasn> _MMA_: so I bought it, plugged it in and started scanning and printing right away
[13:54]  * DannyKing loves Ubuntu :)
[13:56] <_MMA_> andreasn: I just check the CUPS site most of the time. Last time I bought one it was pretty close to their latest model and everything works. USB/Network use. Access to all options.
[13:57] <_MMA_> I gotta set it up to serve the printer driver though to windows machines.
[13:57] <andreasn> oh, network printers works well too? cool
[13:57] <_MMA_> I tested it, though I use it USB.
[13:58] <DannyKing> Network printing works great here
[13:59] <DannyKing> Although it took me two years to work out I need to enable some arcane setting on XP buried deep in the control panel to allow unix clients to print through it :\
[13:59] <_MMA_> DannyKing: So for a standard mime icon you think you're gonna do something like the paper one minus the torn edge?
[14:01] <DannyKing> I was going to use the torn version - you think it's too complex for the standard mime icon?
[14:01] <_MMA_> DannyKing: And I think the torn icon looks fine on dark backgrounds. I seems light ones are the issue. Guess the shadow that needs to go here could set the tone for the set.
[14:01] <_MMA_> DannyKing: I do. But we can see what others think.
[14:01] <DannyKing> Sure thing
[14:04] <_MMA_> DannyKing: Am I wrong in this is missing the "fiber" feel in the paper?
[14:05] <_MMA_> s/feel/texture
[14:06] <DannyKing> Well, the left column actually has a very transparent (2%) sand texture over it which I was using just to test it out, although it's probably /too/ faint, I can't find a way to comfortably add a grainy effect without using a bitmap pattern
[14:08] <joshuablount> hello everyone! I wanted to ask about the maximize / minimize button in the "dusk" theme... anyone feel like fielding that question?
[14:09] <_MMA_> joshuablount: The guy to best answer isnt around atm.
[14:10] <joshuablount> Np, may I have his IRC nick? I'd love to hear a bit about his decisions.
[14:10] <_MMA_> DannyKing: Oh! I got a great idea for image filetypes. Ill put in the response to you submission. I'm also gonna split the topic off.
[14:10] <_MMA_> DannyKing: Duck is Rico correct?
[14:10] <DannyKing> sure, what's the idea?
[14:10] <_MMA_> gah
[14:10] <_MMA_> Dusk
[14:11] <DannyKing> Not sure, sorry
[14:11] <DannyKing> joshuablount: you can take a look at the ubuntu-artwork mailing list archives
[14:11] <DannyKing> plenty of discussion about dust there
[14:11] <_MMA_> DannyKing: Read the email in a min. :)
[14:11] <DannyKing> k
[14:11] <_MMA_> joshuablount: I believe it's rsc-.
[14:13] <joshuablount> _MMA_: DannyKing: Thanks, and I'll sort through the mailing list and see if I can find my answer.
[14:19] <_MMA_> DannyKing: Check email.
[14:23] <DannyKing> Could you elaborate on the image idea? Do you mean like a page torn from a scrapbook with an image stuck to it, or just a blank torn page?
[14:25] <_MMA_> Im just thinking about the base image. A piece torn from a sketchbook. The non-spiral kind.
[14:27] <DannyKing> It's a nice idea - I personally connect that with sketching/planning/drawing rather than all images. I don't see the immediate link between a sketchbook and a photograph, for example
[14:28] <_MMA_> Yes. One of the reasons I mentioned having multiple mime backgrounds we could use.
[14:30] <_MMA_> DannyKing: Don't laugh. I drew this in 5 seconds. http://mma.users.ubuntustudio.org/Untitled.png But something like that? Little torn edge into the page?
[14:30] <DannyKing> Oh I think I understand, so for mime icons there will be a background that is paper, but different paper depending on the type of icon? e.g. a .doc would have a sheet of writing paper with an emblem suitable for word processing on top, and a .jpg would have a sheet of sketchbook paper with an emblem on top?
[14:31]  * DannyKing looks
[14:31] <DannyKing> Yeah I see what you mean, I like the concept. Just trying to make sure I understand ^
[14:31] <_MMA_> Something like that yeah. Would need some chat. As a .jpg *could* be a drawing or a photo.
[14:31] <DannyKing> true
[14:34] <liw> hi! would anyone be able to help me with getting an icon for system-cleaner(-gtk)? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CleanupCruft is the spec for the app
[14:35] <_MMA_> liw: kwwii is the guy to talk to.
[14:38]  * liw waves to kwwii
[14:38] <DannyKing> _MMA_: I'll do a brainstorm and some sketches for idea for mime types and types of paper
[14:38] <_MMA_> cool
[14:39]  * DannyKing just got a new scanner (I've been  shopping, can you tell? ;) ) so that might help with my design process and texture issues
[14:40]  * _MMA_ bought a 8 year-old flatbed scanner to make sure it worked.
[14:49] <DannyKing>  So when do you leave for the south, _MMA_ ?
[14:51] <kwwii> _MMA_: why am I the guy to talkt o?
[14:52] <liw> kwwii, you are the source of all pretty bits?
[14:53] <_MMA_> DannyKing:  6 days.
[14:53] <kwwii> hehe, right
[14:53] <DannyKing> That lines up with me moving to uni
[14:56] <_MMA_> kwwii: Since you put things into Human icon set you are the best to talk to.
[14:56]  * liw is suddenly struck by the thought that _no_ icon is the cleanest possible icon, which would suit system-cleaner fine
[14:57] <kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, ok
[14:57] <kwwii> liw: I might find time to get something done, but it will take a day or two
[14:57] <DannyKing> liw: heh
[14:57] <liw> kwwii, no worries -- it's fine if system-cleaner ships without one, but I thought I'd ask in case there's someone looking for an icon they could make
[14:58] <liw> kwwii, if you get something done, very much thank you
[14:59] <kwwii> liw: I'll let you know :-)
[15:00]  * kwwii woke up with a nasty head cold this morning :-(
[15:00] <_MMA_> DannyKing: I have things set up to where I should be able to handle any email and BZR uploads.
[15:02] <DannyKing> Cool. I expect to take a step back for a few weeks, but I remain interested
[15:02] <_MMA_> kwwii: Aww.... Wanna get some hot soup then spoon in bed?
[15:09] <kwwii> _MMA_: oh baby, don#t you know it
[15:09] <_MMA_> :P
[15:28] <DannyKing> _MMA_: Assuming all different mime types have a paper base
[15:29] <DannyKing> what kind of paper could be applied to documents that only exist in the digital world, e.g. SVG
[15:29] <DannyKing> .htm
[15:29] <DannyKing> etc
[15:29] <_MMA_> Something generic like what is on the wiki now I suppose. Though kwwii wants to get away from the curled page.
[15:30]  * DannyKing does too
[15:30] <_MMA_> Agreed
[15:31] <DannyKing> an idea I had a while ago for emblems for different types of images files was this:
[15:31] <DannyKing> http://img402.imageshack.us/my.php?image=130208kp8.png
[15:31] <DannyKing> (don't think it applies to breathe but it's a conversation point, at least)
[15:31] <DannyKing> you can see there that the images display the properties of that image type, so gif has limited colours, png has transparency, jpg has more colours than png, etc
[15:32] <_MMA_> DannyKing: Hmm... Interesting. If you want to work on it, revise to fit what we're trying to do here, go ahead. Make up a proposal and submit to the list.
[15:34] <_MMA_> DannyKing: I do really like some of the details you have there.
[15:35] <DannyKing> Thanks
[15:35] <DannyKing> turns out it's a bad idea to have text that's meant to be read in icons
[15:35] <DannyKing> anything smaller than that and the whole idea breaks down
[15:36] <DannyKing> I'll take a stab at doing .png .gif, .jpg and .svg
[15:39] <_MMA_> DannyKing: "turns out it's a bad idea to have text that's meant to be read in icons" What do you mean?
[15:40] <_MMA_> A simple label like "FLAC" on the icon in the text like in the .php icons?
[15:40] <DannyKing> Those icons I just pasted have the extension text (.htm, .css, etc) in the actual icon which was silly.
[15:40] <_MMA_> The "code" detsil?
[15:40] <_MMA_> *detail
[15:40] <DannyKing> the code is fine, but the black part at the bottom breaks down at anything smaller than that size
[15:41] <DannyKing> should have just been without that grey part
[15:42] <_MMA_> I actually like that. Especially for audio icons. A simple waveform graphic doesn't tell me its a FLAC file at a glance.
[15:42] <DannyKing> true
[15:44] <_MMA_> I did this: http://mma.users.ubuntustudio.org/audio-x-flac.svg
[15:44] <_MMA_> For a large handful of audio types.
[15:45] <_MMA_> But the label is pretty large.
[15:45] <DannyKing> Thats nice, I like the detail - we could musical notation for audio file types?
[15:46] <_MMA_> Sure. Though, my arrangement sux there. I just never fixed it.
[15:50]  * DannyKing starts to tidy up his page icon
[15:55] <DannyKing> _MMA_: so how do you think I should adjust it to make it more suitable for the base mime icon?
[15:55] <DannyKing> Just remove the tearing and have a flat sheet of white paper?
[15:58] <_MMA_> Sure. See what you come up with. I hope kwwii and other respected members chime in.
[15:58]  * DannyKing isn't sure what the torn page could be used for
[15:59] <_MMA_> .txt, .conf
[15:59] <_MMA_> I'm sure others.
[16:15] <DannyKing> _MMA_: is it okay to use imageshack to host images for use on the wiki discussion page?
[16:20] <DannyKing> I don't think they expire
[16:22] <_MMA_> DannyKing: Sure. I do that myself because if you need to upload an image to the wiki with the same name you can't. I don't know the rational for that.
[16:22] <DannyKing> Cool. take a look at the discussions page, updated the torn page to include smaller sizes
[16:23] <DannyKing> I don't think I like the 48x48 one though
[16:25] <_MMA_> Yeah. I think we can scale down a bigger chunk of the large one.
[16:25] <_MMA_> Which is what it looked like what you kinda did.
[16:25] <_MMA_> Or grabbed a section.
[16:27] <DannyKing> Yeah I scaled up actually, then cut a section out
[16:27] <DannyKing> The idea was to make it an A5 page rather than an A4
[16:27]  * DannyKing didn't spend much time on it though
[16:29] <DannyKing> I'm going to take a break, bbl
[18:51] <thorwil> rsc-: hi! would you please put your replies on mail below the quoted part and also edit the messages to only contain what you directly refer to?
[18:51] <rsc-> oh sorry
[18:51] <rsc-> is that more acceptable?
[18:52] <rsc-> (i personally hate it when people do that but okay :])
[18:52] <DannyKing> hi thorwil
[18:52] <thorwil> rsc-: it makes reading and discussion much easier. do-not-top-post is even official rule for the list, as it is for most free software lists
[18:52] <DannyKing> hi rsc-
[18:53] <rsc-> whats top-posting?
[18:53] <rsc-> posting at the top?
[18:54] <thorwil> rsc-: admittedly there are several people who do not follow these rules again and again, but after having endless threads about it on the list, it's getting tiresome. so i'm picking you juts because i care about your contribution
[18:54] <thorwil> rsc-: yes, new material at the top, often a full quotation at the bottom
[18:54] <rsc-> alright
[18:54] <rsc-> sorry, most of my email experience is with Outlook in a corporate setting
[18:54] <rsc-> forgive me :)
[18:55] <thorwil> rsc-: no problem. i know switching between office and list style isn't easy
[18:55] <thorwil> it's all microsofts fault!!!
[18:59] <thorwil> oh, hello DannyKing
[18:59] <DannyKing> How's it going?
[19:00] <thorwil> raining all day and i get completely we 2 times :)
[19:00] <thorwil> arg, got wet, i mean
[19:00] <DannyKing> Ah that sucks
[19:00] <DannyKing> Rained on me here too, but that's expected in England :)
[19:01] <thorwil> would have fog otherwise, right? ;)
[19:01] <DannyKing> hehe you can count on it
[19:11] <DannyKing> lol... I googled "booting without swap" because I wanted to know how to disable swap on my linux box (don't ask) and one of the google results was "hotboots.com: a list for men who enjoy swapping boots with others"
[19:11] <thorwil> heh
[19:28]  * _MMA_ hasn't used swap in years. (just have alot of RAM)
[19:29] <_MMA_> Well, on a production box anyway. My daily use laptop has a GB.
[19:29] <_MMA_> GB of RAM. (desktop has 3)
[19:31]  * thorwil learned that working on a large image in GIMP (with it being allowed to take almost all RAM) and at the same time trying to bzr push such an image is a bad idea
[19:31] <Borzo> i am making a version of trash icon, for the breathe iconset. when i thought that the trash icon is overrated. maybe it could be changed to a toilet icon ;) a new challenge
[19:33] <thorwil> Borzo: you mean the trash bin metaphor is overrated?
[19:33] <Borzo> well a bit, but it is hard to come up with something better
[19:34] <Borzo> and then everyone is used to the concept, soo....
[19:34] <Borzo> if you change it to a toilet, it might not be intuitive anymore ;)
[19:35] <Borzo> it would be amusing though
[19:35] <thorwil> i think there have been toilet icons as replacement. at least for windows
[19:36]  * DannyKing likes the current bin icon
[19:36] <Borzo> really? but probably not part of the official iconset
[19:37] <Borzo> which Os had the shredder, I think it was OS/2
[19:37] <thorwil> yes
[19:37] <thorwil> DannyKing: current Ubuntu/Human or Breathe?
[19:37] <DannyKing> breathe
[19:37] <DannyKing> I have some reservations about it, but as I said on the list I think it's a nice icon
[19:37] <Borzo> it is nice, but very similar to the human one, no?
[19:39] <DannyKing> _MMA_: think I'll get away without having swap on a home ssh / bit torrent server?
[19:39] <thorwil> Borzo: well, a nod to the Human icons now and then is a good thing. but it should be judged all by itself
[19:40] <Borzo> thorwil: so breathe is not intendet to cut itself from the human iconset completely?
[19:41] <DannyKing> Borzo: it's meant to combine elements of human, oxygen and hyper-realism
[19:41] <thorwil> Borzo: it should became a better Human. post-human ;)
[19:41]  * Borzo wonders if his trashcan falls into hyper realism
[19:41] <Borzo> ah uber homosapiens!
[19:42] <Borzo> ;)
[19:42] <DannyKing> Borzo: are you Sebastian on the list?
[19:44] <Borzo> DannyKing: no
[19:44] <thorwil> DannyKing: he will likely use spg76
[19:45] <DannyKing> ah yeah true I remember now
[19:45] <_MMA_> DannyKing: My server has a GB of RAM and no swap. Its a file/print/game/torrent server. Works great.
[19:45] <DannyKing> _MMA_: thanks
[19:45] <DannyKing> What happens if it runs out of memory? Crash?
[19:45] <Borzo> brb
[19:45] <_MMA_> Usually some sorta lock up but it's never happened.
[19:46] <_MMA_> Nothing uses enough RAM here. Never has anything leak either.
[19:46] <_MMA_> *leaked
[19:47] <DannyKing> gotta run, afk
[19:48]  * _MMA_ thinks our community needs a feed on Planet. Something that says we don't do official art to the world and puts notes about what's up from time to time.
[19:48] <thorwil> not a bad idea
[19:52]  * _MMA_ ponders doing it after Intrepid is released.
[20:34] <ethana2> Project Kyūdō?
[20:36] <_MMA_> Click and read the link.
[20:36]  * ethana2 is on the third page
[20:37] <ethana2> ok, read it
[20:37] <ethana2> sounds pretty abstract, but I like it
[20:38] <ethana2> Anyone up for some general theme paradigm discussion or is this strictly theme production here?
[20:39] <ethana2> I'm using ubuntu desktop+netbook here...
[20:39] <ethana2> human-murrine with ubuntustudio colors
[20:39] <_MMA_> ethana2: Many people are busy. Ask away. Note that any "this should be default" chat should be entered into lightly.
[20:39] <ethana2> ah
[20:39] <ethana2> I'll try not to make any absolute statements about ubuntu specifically
[20:40] <ethana2> btw, _MMA_, do you have the dust theme working?
[20:40] <_MMA_> As we don't any control over default art.
[20:40] <ethana2> ah.
[20:40] <_MMA_> ethana2: For the most part.
[20:40] <_MMA_> I think Im not bleeding-edge.
[20:40] <ethana2> ok, 'cause it won't work on my machine and it's driving me nuts
[20:40] <_MMA_> rsc-: ^^^
[20:41] <ethana2> i end up with dust title bars and the rest looks like windows 98..
[20:41] <ethana2> hmm
[20:41] <ethana2> Well, Dust 0.2 is out, and I'm trying to use that...
[20:41] <_MMA_> You're most likely missing the engine, or, an update.
[20:41] <ethana2> i installed the engine from a .deb...
[20:41] <ethana2> Should I log out and back in to load the engine properly or something?
[20:42] <_MMA_> Couldn't hurt. But I can't tell you for sure.
[20:42] <ethana2> I don't want to bother if i'm not sure it'll work
[20:42] <ethana2> i'll log out one of these days, you know, when there's a kernel update (suspend FTW)
[20:43] <ethana2> Well, I'm using window-picker-applet right now instead of title bars
[20:43] <ethana2> it's not completely mature yet, so it has some missing functionality..
[20:43] <ethana2> I'm also using maximus, to get rid of title bars
[20:44] <ethana2> ...what I'd really like is this:  window title in the window-picker-applet, applications, places, system to the left, clock and such to the right
[20:44] <RyanPrior> Who's driving this flying umbrella?
[20:44] <ethana2> window menu, toolbar, and controls all in one
[20:45] <ethana2> RyanPrior: your name strikes me as familiar
[20:45] <ethana2> but what you said makes little sense to me
[20:45] <dashua> ethana2: Are you using murrine engine from trunk?
[20:45] <ethana2> ......and the window menu, toolbar, and controls
[20:45] <ethana2> no, 0.2
[20:45] <RyanPrior> ethana2: I'm a contributor, so you've probably seen me around. I haven't been a member of the art community, but I'm thinking I'll have to get involved.
[20:45] <ethana2> from the .deb posted today
[20:46] <dashua> Well, I'm sure it's  the style to profile change.
[20:47] <ethana2> hmm
[20:47] <_MMA_> RyanPrior: The major effort right now is around the Breathe icon set and the Kyūdō guidelines.
[20:47] <ethana2> gyarr, yeah, I'd really like to get Dust working, that would make me feel a lot better right now
[20:47] <RyanPrior> _MMA_ thanks. I've been looking at Kyūdō on the wiki, but it doesn't seem to be an implementable specification in the least. Is there a more concrete plan somewhere?
[20:48] <_MMA_> That *is* the plan for community focused efforts. It's in development.
[20:49] <ethana2> should i remove the one i got from the ubuntu incoming art wiki today?
[20:49] <dashua> ethana2: See if that works.
[20:49]  * ethana2 drops it into appearances dialog
[20:50] <ethana2> nope, same
[20:50] <RyanPrior> Is there a central place for the Breathe icons or is that being orchestrated through the email list?
[20:50] <_MMA_> Yes. The mailing list. Here for real-time chat.
[20:51] <dashua> ethana2: I dunno then.  Working from the one I pulled from bzr.
[20:52] <RyanPrior> I see there's a branch in Launchpad.
[20:53] <_MMA_> RyanPrior: For? (there's 2 chats going on here)
[20:53] <thorwil> _MMA_: why do you propose to ignore as reply to my attempt at a thread killer (i knew it wouldn't work)? ;)
[20:55] <_MMA_> thorwil: Hmm... I don't understand. You think I want people to ignore you? If so, no. I want people to ignore the thread altogether.
[20:57] <thorwil> _MMA_: no, it was clear that you proposed to ignore the thread. the thread i attempted to close with my mail ;)
[20:57] <_MMA_> Ahh... Sorry. :)
[20:58] <thorwil> RyanPrior: kyudo is at a stage before actual specifications. if you would just jump right in to write specs, ho would you know why your are doing it and what you want to achieve
[20:59] <ethana2> i'm glad we have some sense of direction
[20:59] <ethana2> actually thinking about things is double plus good
[20:59] <RyanPrior> thorwil: Sure. However, since I was greeted with "our major effort is the Kyūdō guidelines," I thought perhaps they were further along.
[21:00] <thorwil> would be nice to get some feedback/input on that level, but so far very few people seemed willing or able to work there
[21:02] <thorwil> RyanPrior: i did have some help, but i'm still th sole author of everything on the wiki regarding kyudo. if i work on an icon or buy me new shows, it doesn't progress ;)
[21:06] <RyanPrior> Oh, I'm not talking about icons or marketing junk. What I don't see from Kyūdō (and maybe I missed it) is an end-goal. What I did see is that we want to have good communication between teams so our arrows don't miss their mark - but that's hardly a new goal, and I don't yet understand how Kyūdō is supposed to fit.
[21:07] <_MMA_> RyanPrior: It will be.... I'll let thorwil explain. :P
[21:07] <thorwil> "Within in the long-term goal of achieving an optimal presentation for the Ubuntu GNU/Linux Distribution:
[21:07] <thorwil> Create and deliver an optimal theme for each release, starting with Jaunty Jackalope. Where optimal means: made to the project participants best ability within a release cycle, with the aim to further the goals of Ubuntu."
[21:07] <thorwil> RyanPrior: that's from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/KyudoGuidelines/Foundation
[21:07] <RyanPrior> Sure, but that's either vague or insulting.
[21:08] <RyanPrior> It would be insulting if it was insinuating that the teams haven't been giving to the best of their ability.
[21:08] <RyanPrior> If not that, it's vague as to how that goal is anything different from the expected norm - that people do the best they can to make releases look good given the time and resource available.
[21:08] <_MMA_> Some haven't. That's for sure. (but besides the point)
[21:09] <thorwil> RyanPrior: if that expected norm was so clear, i don't get why people don't just do it ...
[21:10] <thorwil> RyanPrior: so the "obvious has to be spelled out"
[21:10] <_MMA_> RyanPrior: It should also be noted that this isn't for the default art/processes. It will be guidelines to help community efforts.
[21:10] <RyanPrior> So is this something Jono Bacon has weighed in on?
[21:10] <_MMA_> No
[21:10] <thorwil> RyanPrior: but the briefing is further enfolded with the imperative characteristics of the optimal presentation. not going to copy-paste that from the wiki now
[21:11] <RyanPrior> thorwil: I've read the wiki, no worries.
[21:13] <thorwil> RyanPrior: next steps should be to define what the selection of an audience actually means and to further describe the message we want to communicate
[21:13] <thorwil> RyanPrior: afterwards, specs for wallpaper, windows and each widget could follow
[21:14] <RyanPrior> "Linux for Human Beings" seems like a starting point. So, if I want to weigh in on those things is there a special Kyūdō mailing list?
[21:14] <thorwil> no, it all happens (or doesn't) on the art list
[21:15] <RyanPrior> That's surprising.
[21:15] <thorwil> how so?
[21:15]  * thorwil has to log out real soon now
[21:16] <RyanPrior> If it's a community-wide project, I wouldn't have guessed that the primary venue would be the art mailing list
[21:16] <RyanPrior> Thanks for chatting, I'm sure we'll have more to talk about later. :-)
[21:16] <_MMA_> RyanPrior: It is only for art direction.
[21:17] <_MMA_> And the art list is for community art. It in no way dictates the look and feel of Ubuntu.
[21:17] <thorwil> RyanPrior: i hope so :)
[21:17] <thorwil> good night!
[21:28] <RyanPrior> _MMA_: where are the discussions which dictate look and feel of Ubuntu?
[21:30] <_MMA_> RyanPrior: They are governed completely by Canonical. Some if it is here as it's art guy is part of our community. But ultimately, it's their show.
[21:31] <RyanPrior> Ah. I've been watching the art process and I've been very disappointed, which is why I made up my mind to get involved.
[21:32] <_MMA_> There's nothing that says community art wont find its way to default. We just have no say. It's best to forget about it and just create.
[21:32] <_MMA_> So we will focus our own efforts to create great art. With packages freely downloadable.
[21:33] <RyanPrior> Well, I'm not disappointed with what I see coming out of the art community. The mailing list and wikis are full of good work and ideas. The problem is, it isn't being distributed with Ubuntu!
[21:34] <_MMA_> Sure. Just not anything we can do about it.
[21:35] <RyanPrior> No wonder there are so many derivatives of Ubuntu which basically just have different art. I always assumed that the community drove the decision-making process for art. :-(
[21:36] <_MMA_> No. The art has never been a reason for a derivative. Just so happens people like rebranding things.
[21:37] <RyanPrior> Well, I can't imagine that at least some of the derivatives haven't been born out of frustration with the art community's work being ignored.
[21:39] <_MMA_> As someone who has lead a derivative for years and been involved in the community, I haven't seen 1. Though, I'm sure one day it will happen.
[21:56] <ethana2> Say, what's the default gnome window decorator?
[21:56] <ethana2> I can't figure out how to get compiz' to do what I want and I wanted to swap it out
[21:56] <_MMA_> ethana2: metacity
[21:56] <ethana2> erm
[21:57] <darkmatter> _MMA_: typo much? it's meta*shitty* :P
[21:57] <ethana2> !ohmy
[21:58] <ethana2> blast
[21:58] <ethana2> it dumped me back into metacity
[21:59] <_MMA_> ethana2: You'll find that as long as it's not directed at anyone or excessive, swearing is fine.
[21:59] <ethana2> heh
[21:59] <ethana2> gosh dangit, and now it's not using my settings
[21:59]  * ethana2 shakes fist
[22:48] <RyanPrior> For the record, metacity is my favorite.
[22:48] <RyanPrior> A window manager for people who hate window managers.
[22:51]  * ethana2 is using it now
[22:51] <ethana2> but I still despise the application/window decorator distinction
[22:51] <ethana2> the reason osx looks so great is that it doesn't have it
[23:06] <CimiDS> hi guys
[23:06] <_MMA_> yo
[23:07] <compacho> Hello
[23:08] <kwwii> man, i am sick
[23:08] <kwwii> i bet I slept 16 hours today
[23:13] <CimiDS> bbl
[23:15] <PRGUY85> sup fellas
[23:16] <PRGUY85> rsc-, any changes in dust?
[23:59] <compacho> hey guys. I'm relatively new to ubuntu and linux. (1 year exp) I'm wondering, why ubuntu doesn't use any real life photography for wallpaper rather than abstract images.