[00:01] <Ktron> Did/Do you do other activities similiar to being an IRC Op as well? (Forum Moderators, site admins, group organizers, etc.)(
[00:05] <LjL> no. well, i'm in the irc council, but that's a pretty much related activity
[00:05] <LjL> some of our other ops do, however
[00:06] <Ktron> I guess I was trying to see if the people who help keep IRC working are the same sort of people who would be/also are keeping non-IRC equivalents working
[00:06] <nalioth> we all contribute to the forums, mailing lists, etc
[00:06] <nalioth> a couple of our ops are moderators on Ubuntuforums
[00:07] <Ktron> nalioth, LjL, but in general, I'm getting more of a 'sometimes, not not necessarily or even typically'
[00:07] <Ktron> that sound about right?
[00:07] <LjL> yeah i'd say that
[00:08] <LjL> see, ops usually are people who first joined #ubuntu to get some technical support, then stayed and eventually became ops
[00:08] <LjL> more rarely are they people who were involved with Ubuntu in other ways, and decide to go discover IRC
[00:09] <Ktron> That sounds about right, I think I might have guessed that
[00:13] <Ktron> One last just curious question, if you could address the general public, would you tell them to "stay away" or "come on in"?
[00:13] <Ktron> And then if you'd got anything else you wanted to mention, go for it, you've been a great help LjL.
[00:14] <LjL> Ktron: i'll just say that, as a general rule, the best ops are the ones who don't really much want to become ops
[00:14] <LjL> although there are exceptions
[00:17] <nalioth> i just wanted to help people learn linux
[00:18] <Ktron> nalioth, does 'repay the community', 'spread linux', or 'help the helpless' ring true at all?
[00:18] <nalioth> next thing i knew, i was an op
[00:18] <nalioth> next thing after that, the staff was tapping me on the shoulder
[00:19] <nalioth> spread linux, predominantly
[00:19] <LjL> Ktron: one thing i can add, though it's not strictly related to being an *op* but more general being a helper in support channels, is that burn-out is a bad thing. most people would probably know when to walk away, but those people generally don't know what IRC even is, let along being interested in being ops in it
[00:19] <nalioth> there is no such thing as "helpless' if they're here
[00:19] <LjL> people who tend to stay on irc a lot, well, they tend to get a bit addicted too, and that's harmful
[00:20] <Ktron> nalioth, I meant 'in seek of help', not hopeless and unable to be helped
[00:20] <LjL> and i'm totally speaking out of my experience here
[00:20] <nalioth> Ktron: there is a difference, you know.
[00:21] <nalioth> 'spreading linux' is education about how linux systems work
[00:21] <Ktron> nalioth, yeah, I agree, pretty much as a rule if they capable enough to get into irc channels then they're capable of most software related tasks if they want to be
[00:21] <nalioth> i see more folks who do not give linux a chance "cuz it's not as easy as windows [that they're already used to]"
[00:22] <Ktron> nalioth, do you see it more as education than campaign then?
[00:22] <LjL> Ktron: well for me, you know what, though i rationally understand and support all of "repay the community", "spread linux", "help people"... in the end, when i help someone in #ubuntu, i don't think "now let's spend some time to repay the community". it's more like, i don't know, automatic - if i know or think i can find the answer to something, i try to
[00:22] <Ktron> LjL, Yeah, I've seen enough burn out to know what you're talking about
[00:22] <nalioth> Ktron: folks are obviously interested in it, or they'd not be here
[00:24] <Ktron> nalioth, so maybe its more like miniature, temporary apprenticeships
[00:25] <nalioth> well, it's hard switching from windows
[00:25] <nalioth> even with the wonderful state of the linux GUI today
[00:25] <LjL> mwahahahah
[00:25] <LjL> erm, sorry
[00:26] <Ktron> nalioth, if it helps to know, my work servers run ubuntu and my workstation and laptop run xubuntu, so I'm familiar with the challenges of the conversion
[00:26] <nalioth> you're interviewing us :)
[00:28] <Ktron> I know, I just thought it might help to have an idea of how informed I am, but you can ignore this and the last comment if you wish :)
[00:30] <LjL> Ktron: i don't normally think in term of "campaigning", but when someone comes asking "how do i do [some typically Windows thing, explained using Windows-specific terms] in ubuntu", i tend to make a point of not knowing what they're talking about
[00:30] <LjL> i mean, i help them anyway, but first i'd like them to rephrase their question in generic terms
[00:32] <LjL> and "education" is indeed important, the purpose is not merely to fix the specific problem, it's also about letting people know how problems are best tackled - and avoided
[00:33] <Ktron> Is Ubuntu always the right choice?
[00:33] <LjL> since a good percentage of problems come from doing things "the wrong way" to begin with
[00:33] <Ktron> erUSUL, generalize that to Linux always the right choice
[00:33] <LjL> i'd much rather have a microkernel
[00:33]  * erUSUL ?
[00:33] <LjL> and i *don't* like the (lack of sane) integration with the GUI
[00:34] <LjL> and i don't like a bunch of other things
[00:34]  * erUSUL pass to LjL a copy of Amiga OS and an imaginary Amiga 500 XD
[00:34] <LjL> but Linux is, as far as i know, the only free operating system on a PC that isn't extremely restricted
[00:34] <Ktron> erUSUL, sorry, I hit tab and didn't mean to
[00:35] <LjL> erUSUL, meh, give me a darn A1200 at least, i have an A500+ already
[00:35] <erUSUL> Ktron: no problem
[00:35] <erUSUL> LjL: lucky you
[00:35] <LjL> Ktron: we have a factoid
[00:35] <Ktron> AmigaOS 4.something came out in the last year or so, didn't it?
[00:35] <LjL> !best
[00:35] <LjL> so no, Linux or Ubuntu are never the "best" choice
[00:35] <LjL> Ktron: yes, but it's hopeless
[00:36] <LjL> i love AmigaOS, but it's hopeless nonetheless
[00:36] <Ktron> LjL, yeah, it's only for PowerPC though...
[00:36] <LjL> well, the previous ones were only for m68k, so...
[00:36] <LjL> anyway, there is AROS which runs on Intel
[00:36] <LjL> and is open-source
[00:36] <LjL> but it's far from a "modern" operating system, either
[00:37] <Ktron> LjL, So I guess I'm not looking to see if linux (Ubuntu) is the best choice as much as whether its always the better choice (to Windows, say)
[00:37] <LjL> lack of memory protection - no thanks, even with all the other good things that AmigaOS has...
[00:37] <erUSUL> LjL: http://royal.pingdom.com/2008/09/26/10-amazingly-alternative-operating-systems-and-what-they-could-mean-for-the-future/
[00:37] <Ktron> LjL, There are people who actively try to convince everyone they meet that they should switch to linux because they can do more for less money and it will solve their problems
[00:37] <LjL> Ktron: even there the answer is "depends". i think that, for many uses, Windows is "better" than Ubuntu, in a purely technical sense
[00:38] <LjL> but the freedom that Ubuntu gives and Windows gives not matters to *me*
[00:38] <LjL> if it doesn't matter to someone, then for them Ubuntu isn't necessarily better than Windows
[00:38] <LjL> for me, it's "almost always" better, because of how much i value the non-technical parts - i.e. the freedom
[00:40] <LjL> erUSUL: i know them all save the last three
[00:40] <LjL> no, the last two, i've tried MenuetOS i think
[00:41] <Ktron> I only recognized the first three
[00:41] <erUSUL> LjL: i once had high hopes for MorphOS but Pegasos PowerPC machines never catch up :(
[00:41] <nalioth> Ktron: any *nix OS is better than windows
[00:42] <LjL> erUSUL, i think at this stage, the only hope is for something that runs on Intel. also, currently, i wouldn't really consider using a proprietary system, especially one so limited. if it's limited but open-source, on the other hand...
[00:43] <LjL> still, i want my darn memory protection >:
[00:44] <erUSUL> LjL: well to be fair one of the selling points of pegasos was that they included debian or yhl along with morphOS (who supported amiga old users and apps)
[00:44] <LjL> you can't avoid browsing the web for fear of a guru meditation in 2008
[00:49] <Ktron> heh
[00:50] <Ktron> I don't even remember which Amiga I used, but I know I upgraded from it to a 200MHz machine so it must have been quite a while ago.
[00:50] <Ktron> Anyway, thanks again LjL and nalioth, I really appreciate it
[00:51] <LjL> Ktron: i upgraded to a 486, and yet it was quite a while ago ;)
[00:51] <nalioth> any time
[00:56] <Ktron> I think my amiga was a A1200, I'm not positive, but it was an everything-in-the-keyboard form factor, and it had a built-in 3.5" floppy drive
[00:57] <Ktron> which I think limits me to A1200, A500+ and the A600, but the A600 isn't the right shape
[00:59] <LjL> Ktron: did it take >1mb floppy disks?
[00:59] <Ktron> LjL, I think so, but I'm not positive
[01:00] <Ktron> LjL, I remember we had a 5.5" external floppy drive for it
[01:00] <Ktron> and a cassette player for things on cassette
[01:00] <LjL> Ktron: it could also be an A500, for that matter
[01:00] <LjL> a cassette player? that's kind of weird on an amiga
[01:00] <Ktron> tape cassettes, yeah, I'm not sure why
[01:01] <Ktron> I think it had an internal hard drive, and I thought I just read that the A500 didn't...
[01:03] <LjL> none of the everything-in-the-keyboard types did
[01:03] <LjL> you could fit them one, in some cases
[01:04] <LjL> cassette storage on an amiga is really news to me, though
[01:08] <Ktron> There was a game or something that was on a cassette that I vaguely remember
[01:09] <Ktron> We had a huge cdrom drive too I think, that had these special cd cases you put the cd in first, then you loaded the entire case like a hard floppy into the drive
[10:41] <khanh_coltech> can i add ubotu into my channel ???
[17:11] <mrooney> Hello all, I was wondering if I (https://launchpad.net/~michael) could get a member cloak.
[17:16] <LjL> mrooney: you can, but you need to make sure your nickname is set up according to http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#userregistration (secondary nick and email set)
[17:27] <mrooney> LjL: okay, I am pretty sure the secondary nick part is set up, let me check on the email
[17:30] <mrooney> LjL: this and the secondary nick are registered and linked, so I assume it is set?
[17:31] <LjL> PriceChild, have a look above please
[17:32] <PriceChild> LjL: all set up, I'll cloak?
[17:32] <LjL> yes please
[17:33] <PriceChild> LjL: mrooney done
[17:34] <LjL> thanks. mrooney, you're cloaked
[17:37] <mrooney> Thank you very much!