[08:44] <damhyojung> hey.all
[08:44] <damhyojung> where r u guys from
[13:00] <davidm> #startmeeting
[13:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 07:00. The chair is davidm.
[13:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[13:00] <davidm> Hello time to start the mobile meeting
[13:00]  * ogra waves
[13:01] <StevenK> Was in the middle of typing /join when you said ...
[13:01] <davidm>  lool persia ?
[13:01] <lool> yup
[13:01]  * persia may or may not be here, depending on the possibility of netsplits
[13:01] <StevenK> And lag
[13:01] <davidm> OK, lets get started
[13:02] <lool> You're not allowed to mock me for this, but I just called in the conf call line and waited 2 minutes while preparing a coffee
[13:02] <StevenK> Haha
[13:02] <StevenK> Oh yes we are
[13:02] <lool> No mocking!!
[13:02] <davidm> The first action was a carry over for cgregan
[13:02] <davidm> but he is not around so I'll carry it again
[13:03] <davidm> [topic] cgregan had an action to compare & contract F-Spot and GThumb
[13:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  cgregan had an action to compare & contract F-Spot and GThumb
[13:03] <davidm> [action] cgregan had an action to compare & contract F-Spot and GThumb (CO)
[13:03] <MootBot> ACTION received:  cgregan had an action to compare & contract F-Spot and GThumb (CO)
[13:03] <davidm> [topic] StevenK to write spec(s) to have choice of launchers/extend launcher for theme ability
[13:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  StevenK to write spec(s) to have choice of launchers/extend launcher for theme ability
[13:03] <lool> davidm: cgregan told me he probably can't attend IRC meeting this week, but will attend tomorrow's phone call
[13:03] <davidm> lool, thanks
[13:03] <davidm> StevenK, any progress on spec's?
[13:04] <StevenK> davidm: I've not done that yet, I keep get distracted. :-(
[13:04] <StevenK> It is still on my list.
[13:04] <davidm> I'll carry it over, can you get to it this week?
[13:04] <StevenK> I've set it as my number 1 task tomorrow
[13:04] <davidm> [action] StevenK to write spec(s) to have choice of launchers/extend launcher for theme ability (CO)
[13:04] <MootBot> ACTION received:  StevenK to write spec(s) to have choice of launchers/extend launcher for theme ability (CO)
[13:04] <StevenK> There was another spec persia and I mentioned
[13:04] <davidm> Yes?
[13:04] <persia> Oh, the new one?
[13:04]  * persia checks
[13:05] <StevenK> Not for the meeting, so I can also write it tomorrow
[13:05] <davidm> do I need to make an action?
[13:05] <StevenK> Nah
[13:05] <davidm> [topic] status of intrepid tasks
[13:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  status of intrepid tasks
[13:05] <davidm> OK
[13:06] <persia> Yeah, the new one was having a nice menu when booting the image.
[13:06] <lool> We have mobile images
[13:06] <davidm> Good
[13:06] <lool> I could install mobile on my Q1U
[13:06] <davidm> Woot
[13:06] <lool> mid fails has misc small issues
[13:06] <lool> +and
[13:06] <davidm> I showed Matt the mobile images yesterday
[13:06] <lool> There are issues in the kvm install too
[13:07] <lool> davidm: Is Matt at the same site this week?
[13:07] <davidm> lool, he is in London I believe
[13:07] <davidm> OK from the top
[13:07]  * StevenK waits
[13:07] <davidm> StevenK, status for intreped, blockers etc?
[13:08] <StevenK> davidm: No blockers, just need to make more than 24 hours in the day
[13:08]  * lool gives a time machine to StevenK 
[13:09] <StevenK> I'm also looking at NBS since I'd like that list to be empty by release, but that's more a task of archive being clean
[13:09] <davidm> StevenK, OK, anything specific we need to know about?
[13:10] <StevenK> Kourou 0.4 has been uploaded which adds an icon for the Installer
[13:10] <davidm> Nice
[13:10]  * persia dances
[13:10] <StevenK> Kourou 0.5 will be prepared tomorrow which allows single or double click since both lool and I discovered that double clicking on a touch screen is *hard*
[13:10] <ogra> yeah
[13:10]  * persia tends to have to triple-click or more
[13:10] <ogra> -mobile uses single for nautilus a well
[13:11] <ogra> *as
[13:11] <StevenK> ogra: I discovered the touch screen works too :-)
[13:11] <lool> Yeah, I'm like tripe touching as well
[13:11] <StevenK> By accident
[13:11] <ogra> StevenK, yeah :)
[13:11] <lool> Until I realize midbrowser /really/ doesn't launch   :-P
[13:11] <StevenK> Hm. I wasn't aware of that.
[13:11] <davidm> lool, midbrowser is broken?
[13:12] <lool> Yeah, it seems recently
[13:12] <ogra> yeah
[13:12] <lool> Someone said this was known already
[13:12] <ogra> asac, is aware
[13:12] <ogra> but we need a backtrace, i didnt get to that yet
[13:12] <davidm> is this listed against release or something?
[13:12] <lool> In all cases it should be
[13:13] <lool> ogra: Is there an open bug and does it have proper flags?
[13:13] <davidm> lool, thanks I was about to ask that
[13:13] <ogra> lool, not yet
[13:13] <StevenK> Oh yeah, it's that abort() thing
[13:14] <lool> ogra: You seem to be the best person to file it if you don't mind
[13:14] <asac> anyone tried if a respin fixes this?
[13:14] <StevenK> s/spin/build/ ?
[13:14] <asac> yes
[13:14] <ogra> lool, doing right now
[13:14] <lool> ogra: thanks
[13:15] <davidm> [action] ogra to file midbrowser bug
[13:15] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to file midbrowser bug
[13:15] <davidm> OK StevenK anything else?
[13:15] <StevenK> Yes, but I think there's a seperate action for it, so it can wait
[13:15] <davidm> OK
[13:15] <davidm> persia, status?
[13:16] <persia> Erm.  The installer *should* have all the last bits in it, except something appears still to not work.  I'm tracking down why.
[13:16] <ogra> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/midbrowser/+bug/277074
[13:17] <lool> persia: There's this import error, displaying the ubiquity launcher, and launching ubiquity in automatic mode, correct?
[13:17] <persia> There's an outstanding issue with language packs: in part because of the way the images are constructed, we don't have any language packs, so users have to download them during the install.
[13:17] <persia> StevenK and I discussed that some, and thought that we'd do best to have a local repository for jaunty, and put up with network access requirements for intrepid.
[13:17] <StevenK> Displaying the launcher I've taken care of
[13:18] <asac> rebuilding midbrowser in current intrepid fixes it
[13:18] <lool> asac: Thanks
[13:18] <StevenK> Okay, I will upload a rebuild
[13:18] <lool> asac: You pushed that?
[13:18] <persia> We're still not installing in automatic mode, because we can't preseed blank passwords: I'm planning to ask the installer team to review a fix for this after beta is complete.
[13:18] <lool> StevenK: Thanks; midbrowser is big
[13:18] <asac> lool: err. i see that it there is a change that is not in git in the package
[13:18] <persia> As a result, it's possible for users to change the username, which breaks X.
[13:19] <asac> can you please at least forward me patches when uploading?
[13:19] <lool> StevenK: ^
[13:19] <persia> And in KVM testing, it was discovered that performing an install in KVM can corrupt the local image if the user does not chattr +i first.  Setting this chattr +i breaks the install.
[13:19] <asac> anyone knows if git-to-bzr is usable?
[13:19] <asac> i would like to move the code over to launchpad if possible
[13:20] <StevenK> asac: Didn't we have this discussion when I did it last month?
[13:20] <asac> so everyone can commit to that
[13:20] <persia> One possible workaround is to use ISO images instead of USB images, which also has the benefit of letting us use usb-creator for install devices.
[13:20] <asac> StevenK: might be :) ... wasnt a complain. just a reminder. if that was already discussed its fine
[13:20] <davidm> persia, but these devices only have USB
[13:20] <StevenK> asac: If not, the diff that launchpad generates is fine
[13:21] <lool> This looks like we will redo the same discussion as on #ubuntu-mobile
[13:21] <asac> StevenK: oh
[13:21] <StevenK> davidm: persia means getting the dailies to generate an .iso and then using usb-creator to make .img's out of them
[13:21] <asac> StevenK: http://git.moblin.org/repos/?p=projects/mobile-browser.git;a=shortlog;h=intrepid
[13:21] <asac> i already released -3 ... maybe upload that ;)
[13:21] <davidm> ah
[13:21] <persia> StevenK: Well, to actually initialise USB disks, but yes.
[13:21] <StevenK> * drop ubufox from Suggests; ubufox doesnt support ...
[13:21] <StevenK> That's my -2 change, too
[13:21] <asac> StevenK: yeah. i replayed your change and bumped again for gsfonts or something
[13:22] <StevenK> asac: midbrowser is enormous, you can upload it if you want
[13:22] <persia> So, we discussed this at length in #ubuntu-mobile: it seems we *should* discuss it at UDS Jaunty, but there was still a difference of opinions for intrepid.
[13:22] <asac> i have no time until next week or so
[13:22] <lool> I'm of the general opinion than we shouldn't change anything big anymore
[13:22] <StevenK> Right, I will, then
[13:22] <asac> if noone comes around remind me then so it doesnt get lost
[13:22] <persia> StevenK: How hard is it to switch from .img to .iso?  If it's trivial, I want to change, if it's non-trivial, I'll drop it.
[13:22] <davidm> Ok someone write a spec for Jaunty, who is going to do this, persia ?
[13:22] <StevenK> It's non-trivial
[13:22] <lool> Cool, settles the discussion
[13:22] <persia> Bother.  Oh well, let the bugs live.
[13:23] <ogra> DOORBELL !!!
[13:23] <persia> davidm: StevenK is probably the best choice, as he already has all the keys.  I can help, but I don't have the keys to actually do it.
[13:24] <persia> And I'll take an action to write some release notes warning users *not* to do an install in a virtual environment, as it may corrupt the images.
[13:24] <lool> persia: What about the other ubiquity issues?
[13:24] <StevenK> The spec has to document discussion
[13:24] <davidm> StevenK, can you work with persia on a spec for Jaunty
[13:24] <StevenK> davidm, persia: Just write the spec, the implementation discussion can wait until UDS
[13:24] <persia> Let's have a fresh discussion about it at UDS.
[13:24] <davidm> [action] persia to write some release notes warning users *not* to do an install in a virtual environment, as it may corrupt the images.
[13:24] <MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to write some release notes warning users *not* to do an install in a virtual environment, as it may corrupt the images.
[13:24] <ogra> it works in vbox
[13:25] <persia> ogra: Indeed, and I'll include your hints in the notes :)
[13:25] <lool> It's just qemu/kvm-broken
[13:25]  * ogra dances ... 
[13:25] <lool> persia: What about the other bugs in the mid install?
[13:25] <persia> Which bugs?
[13:25]  * ogra holds a brandnew BT freedom keyboard in his hands
[13:25] <davidm> [action] persia  write the spec about converting the dailies to generate an .iso and then using usb-creator to make .img's out of them
[13:25] <MootBot> ACTION received:  persia  write the spec about converting the dailies to generate an .iso and then using usb-creator to make .img's out of them
[13:25] <lool> That I mentionned earlier
[13:26] <lool> ogra: I don't understand: you didn't like the Q1U's keyboard???
[13:26] <StevenK> How could you not?
[13:26] <ogra> haha
[13:26]  * StevenK chokes
[13:26] <ogra> its for my n800
[13:26] <persia> The display issue has been fixed for a bit.  The "import error" was solved, exposing something else, and automatic was discussed already.
[13:26] <persia> DId I miss something?
[13:26] <ogra> the Q1 has a wireless kbd attached :)
[13:27] <lool> persia: Where are these fixed?
[13:27] <persia> display is fixed in kourou 0.4, import is fixed in ubiquity 1.10.2
[13:28] <lool> persia: ubiquity 1.10.3 is in the archive, and there was an image respin
[13:28] <persia> automatic is about 50% fixed in my local branches, and will be presented to the installer team after the beta.
[13:28] <lool> persia: And I got an import error with the latest mid image
[13:28] <lool> I fear the import issues is another one
[13:28] <lool> Did you manage to install MID?
[13:28] <persia> Which error?  You shouldn't get an import error.  You should get a Debconf error.  Are you sure you have the latest image?
[13:29] <lool> Sorry, I think I wrote import error in this meeting when I met python traceback
[13:29] <lool> I'm getting a debconf python traceback
[13:29] <StevenK> That's a known error
[13:29] <persia> OK.  That's expected.
[13:29] <lool> Yeah, so I'm asking about the status of this bug :)
[13:30] <lool> I'm happy it's known
[13:30] <davidm> and a bug # please
[13:30] <persia> I keep getting distracted.  I've at least identified several things it's not.
[13:30] <persia> No idea against which package to file a bug yet.
[13:30] <StevenK> davidm: To make your day brighter, I commited a change to the seeds that contained the diff: - * moblin-media
[13:31] <lool> persia: I'd file one against ubiquity as a start and reassign appropriately
[13:31] <persia> lool: I'm 95% sure it's not ubiquity.
[13:31] <lool> persia: We need to milestone this bug and get it on the release team's radar that we are having a critical issue preventing install
[13:32] <persia> Yes.  I should have a bug (and a fix) soon.
[13:33] <davidm> [action] persia to file bug  Debconf error against ubiquity today
[13:33] <MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to file bug  Debconf error against ubiquity today
[13:33] <davidm> OK moving on
[13:33] <davidm> ogra, status, issues?
[13:34] <ogra> well, mobile is looking fine apart from the midbrowser issue
[13:35] <davidm> ogra, good
[13:35] <ogra> i have a bunch of pending touchscreen driver things resulting from eth umpcportal feedback
[13:35] <ogra> i'm about to write a fresh blog entry pointing to the images on cdimage
[13:35] <ogra> well, thats mainly for me, no blockers or anything
[13:36] <davidm> that should generate some traffic
[13:36] <davidm> OK
[13:36] <davidm> amitk_, how is kernel land?
[13:36] <persia> Oh, right, that reminds me: the Forums team is looking at organising a forum for Ubuntu Mobile.
[13:36] <davidm> persia, good
[13:37] <amitk_> davidm: with meta and aufs out of the way, I am working on lrm now
[13:37] <amitk_> hope to make it available tomorrow.
[13:38] <lool> amitk_: Do you have other critical tasks for intrepid?
[13:38] <ogra> is there any chance ath5k could be fixed ?
[13:38] <lool> Well we could live without lrm
[13:38] <StevenK> Except then wireless doesn't work
[13:38] <persia> I'd *much* prefer lrm.  It might make me able to have *some* sort of network connection.
[13:39] <ogra> we will have to rovide a blacklist file from the -default-settings package if not, as ath5k is preferred by default
[13:39] <lool> persia: You also have atheros devices?
[13:39] <amitk_> I need to push new drivers from Intel into Hardy and try to forward-port DRM driver to intrepid.
[13:39] <persia> lool: Quite possibly: no idea what is on this USB dongle that doesn't work.
[13:39] <lool> madwifi doesn't support usb wifi
[13:39] <ogra> usually usb wifi needs firmware
[13:40] <persia> Oh well.  I'm not so excited about then :)
[13:40] <ogra> which is in lrm :) )
[13:40]  * persia vacillates
[13:40] <lool> So lrm is nice for the Q1 to have, it's high priority, but we could release without it
[13:40] <amitk_> if enabling madwifi will get the samsung users off my back, I might as well do it :)
[13:40] <lool> Yeah
[13:41] <ogra> amitk_, well, we need to make sure ath5k doesnt get preferred though
[13:41] <ogra> currently you have to blacklist it manually
[13:41] <ogra> else it gets loaded regardless if madwifi is there
[13:41] <StevenK> We can add that to -default-settings
[13:42] <amitk_> ogra: I am sure you'll fix that blacklist once lrm is available :-p
[13:42] <StevenK> Easily, I say
[13:42] <davidm> amitk_, anything else?
[13:42] <ogra> well, but that indeed disables it for all devices where ath5k would work
[13:42] <amitk_> just a rebase to 2.6.27-rc8 that is pending (base kernel was rebased yesterday) - not critical this week.
[13:42]  * lool think this should be fixed in ath5k, either in terms of devices it claims to support or in actually supporting them  :-P
[13:43] <ogra> (we have  netbook user on our open bug for whom it works with the same chipset in a different device)
[13:43] <ogra> (at least he claims that)
[13:43] <ogra> lool, ++ ... but might be hard to do
[13:43] <ogra> in the above light
[13:43] <amitk_> davidm: that's it on my end
[13:44] <davidm> lets take the rest of the ath5k madwifi conversation off-line
[13:44] <davidm> amitk_, thanks
[13:44] <davidm> lool, status?
[13:44] <lool> I've been working on MIRs and am now part of the ubuntu-mir team
[13:45] <StevenK> \o/!
[13:45] <lool> It could help to some extent for some mobile promotions, but I should rather get mobile stuff reviewed by someone with a neutral opinion on inclusion; so not a big change for mobile efforts
[13:45] <lool> It's going to be a help for easy stuff though
[13:46] <lool> I helped on misc beta stuff and discussed with release team
[13:46] <StevenK> I think it's a bit late to get stuff promoted, though
[13:46] <lool> I intend to continue testing images and looking into release critical bugs
[13:47] <lool> No particular blocker
[13:47] <lool> (</status>)
[13:47] <davidm> thanks
[13:47] <lool> davidm: status
[13:47] <lool> :-P
[13:47] <davidm> :-)
[13:47] <davidm> I'm just back from a meeting yesterday
[13:48] <davidm> with Intel about Moblin 2.0 was interesting
[13:48] <davidm> they are staging netbooks now to April, MID post that to October
[13:48] <davidm> interesting
[13:49] <lool> This matches what I was told at OSIM
[13:49] <lool> So it's /not/ slipping!  :-)
[13:49] <davidm> Well at least not currently
[13:50] <davidm> beyond that it takes a day of travel there and a day back so that has been the entire week so far
[13:50] <davidm> :-(
[13:50] <davidm> OK 10 minute warning
[13:50] <davidm> that covers the agenda I think comments?
[13:51] <StevenK> davidm: I got no reply to my news.
[13:51] <StevenK> davidm: I have uploaded a mobile-meta that drops moblin-media
[13:51] <StevenK> davidm: We are replacing it with totem and gthumb.
[13:51] <davidm> does it work as well as moblin media?
[13:52] <StevenK> totem is better, IMO
[13:52] <davidm> OK
[13:52] <ian_brasil> StevenK: i think that totally rocks to be honest...moblin-media was difficult to say the least
[13:52] <StevenK> gthumb looks good, too
[13:52] <davidm> Good enough then
[13:52] <ogra> do we have a solution with the X team for psb ?
[13:53] <lool> ogra: I'm not sure we have a solution for the drm situation
[13:53] <ogra> (it should be dropped from xserver-xorg-video-all if it breaks, so at least -vesa is available for psb users)
[13:53] <davidm> nope, Intel will not have a psb driver for Intrepid until sometime in December soonest
[13:53] <lool> or the exa one
[13:53] <ogra> i'm not talking about intel but about us :)
[13:53] <ogra> vesa seems to work on some of them
[13:54] <ogra> but psb gets prefereed by xorg as long as its there
[13:54] <davidm> ogra, ah sorry that was a topic of the meeting Tuesday too.
[13:54] <ogra> so we should drop the package
[13:54] <lool> ogra: I dropped it from video-all
[13:54] <ogra> oh, ok
[13:54] <lool> it's just pending acceptance by release team, will be after beta
[13:54] <ogra> good
[13:54] <ogra> i had many requests for psb in the mobile feedback
[13:54] <ogra> not having it will cost us users i guess :(
[13:55] <ogra> but vesa is better than nothing
[13:55] <lool> The problem is that psb lives out of tree and is incompatible with rest of the drivers
[13:55] <ogra> yeah, i know the upstream issues
[13:55] <ogra> i'm just sad because that was one of the often asked questions
[13:55] <lool> Any solution to have the two drms available in libdrm and the two exas would cost us in maintenance and be a pain to setup
[13:56] <lool> It's Intel's to fix and fix upstream
[13:56] <ogra> yeah
[13:56] <pitti> hello
[13:56] <davidm> 4 minute warning
[13:56] <ogra> we could just say its pittis fault :P
[13:56] <persia> There could be a -psb PPA, as there is a -nouveau PPA, if anyone ports it.
[13:56] <davidm> OK any other opens
[13:56] <lool> ogra: We could provide psb in a ppa?
[13:56] <ogra> hmm
[13:57] <lool> Still require kernel, libdrm, psb uploads, but not too intrusive, less time consuming, and has a chance to work
[13:57] <lool> Also points out it's unsupported
[13:57] <lool> persia: Oh *synergy*
[13:57]  * ogra wonders if we could hack that into the installer somehow to add to apt/sources.list.d
[13:57] <persia> :)
[13:57] <persia> ogra: That would be *bad*.
[13:57] <lool> ogra: Urgh, no
[13:57] <StevenK> No more PPAs
[13:58] <MacSlow> hey seb128
[13:58] <seb128> hello there
[13:58] <ogra> *not* into the image but at install time
[13:58] <davidm> 2 minutes
[13:58] <lool> We could hack it in grub that if you boot Ubuntu with the intention to do this, it prevents booting
[13:58] <StevenK> Haha
[13:58] <ogra> heh
[13:58]  * MacSlow is all out excited about gimp 2.6.0
[13:58] <persia> I like that.
[13:58] <lool> ogra: let's discuss after meeting
[13:58] <ogra> yeah
[13:58]  * lool waves to desktop team
[13:58] <StevenK> MacSlow: Oooooh!
[13:58] <ogra> its just easier than having to add a PPA source
[13:58] <StevenK> MacSlow: When is it due?
[13:59] <MacSlow> StevenK, dude it so funky what they did in just a year from 2.4.0 to 2.6.0
[13:59]  * ogra still likes gdebi though, but its more than one package ...
[13:59] <lool> StevenK: It's released
[13:59] <MacSlow> StevenK, like yesterday or so
[13:59]  * pedro_ waves
[13:59] <lool> davidm: #close-the-meeting? :)
[13:59] <MacSlow> StevenK, check out http://gimp.org/release-notes/gimp-2.6.html
[13:59] <StevenK> Oh yes
[13:59] <davidm>  #endmeeting  going once
[13:59] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:59.
[13:59] <StevenK> New upstreams of gimp make me happy
[13:59] <Keybuk> heh
[14:00] <StevenK> davidm: Going once, you say?
[14:00] <davidm> Whoops did not expect it to do that
[14:00] <StevenK> Haha
[14:00] <lool> haha
[14:00] <lool> We go at ONE
[14:00] <lool> (gone)
[14:00] <davidm> it removed the whitespace and grabbed it, oh well
[14:00] <StevenK> Ready, on my GO!
[14:00] <davidm> Keybuk, it's all yours ;-)
[14:00] <Keybuk> thanks
[14:00] <Keybuk> #startmeeting
[14:00] <MootBot> Meeting started at 08:00. The chair is Keybuk.
[14:00] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[14:01] <Keybuk> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-10-02
[14:01] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-10-02
[14:01] <Keybuk> afternoon everybody
[14:01] <tedg> Good morning.
[14:01] <Keybuk> I'd like to rattle through as quickly as we can today, we overran last week
[14:01] <mvo> hello
[14:01] <norsetto> howdy
[14:01] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Outstanding actions from last meeting
[14:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Outstanding actions from last meeting
[14:01] <Keybuk> # pitti to discuss gnome-keyring confirmation dialog behaviour in upstream bug
[14:02] <pitti> done, and followed up on u-desktop@ (no responses there, though)
[14:02] <pitti> summary is that I think it's fine to entirely disable that dialog for intrepid
[14:02] <Keybuk>  * mvo to decide on FOSScamp attendance
[14:02] <Keybuk>  * kwwii to decide on FOSScamp attendance
[14:02] <pitti> since it doesn't give us any security
[14:02] <Keybuk> mvo, kwwii: did you decide?
[14:03] <kwwii> Keybuk: yes, I do not think I am going :-)
[14:03] <Keybuk> ok, mvo?
[14:03] <MacSlow> kwwii, sweet
[14:03] <mvo> I will come, it will problably make sense
[14:03] <Keybuk> ok
[14:03] <MacSlow> mvo, cool
[14:03] <Keybuk> so that means attending FOSScamp are: me, pitti, mpt, seb128, Riddell, MacSlow and mvo
[14:03] <Keybuk> not attending are tedg, kwwii
[14:04] <MacSlow> kwwii, ?
[14:04] <MacSlow> is my xchat messing with me
[14:04] <Keybuk>  * seb128 to add GNOME people to sponsorship list
[14:04] <seb128> done
[14:04] <Keybuk> great, thanks
[14:05] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Farewells
[14:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Farewells
[14:05] <Keybuk> This will be tedg and MacSlow's last meeting as a member of this team
[14:05] <Keybuk> on Monday, they'll be moving to the new desktop experience team
[14:05]  * mpt passes the tissues
[14:05]  * tedg waves
[14:05]  * pitti hugs tedg and MacSlow
[14:05]  * mvo waves to tedg and MacSlow
[14:05] <MacSlow> ah... I'll be here anyway
[14:05] <Keybuk> of course, they're likely to still hang out in our meeting anyway ;)
[14:06] <Keybuk> tedg, MacSlow: David Barth is lucky to have you!
[14:06] <MacSlow> I just hope I'll be albe to return the helping-favour to the desktop-team, in GL/cairo-regards someday :)
[14:06] <tedg> I like to call it stalking :)
[14:06] <seb128> good luck to you there ;-)
[14:06] <Keybuk> and in what will seem like no time at all
[14:06] <MacSlow> mvo, seb128, pitti: but still expect me to run into you for debian-ish questions :)
[14:06] <Keybuk> (a mere 18 days)
[14:06] <pitti> sure
[14:06] <Keybuk> mvo will be moving over to the foundations team
[14:07]  * mvo will just be in the office next door
[14:07] <pitti> mvo: *hug* mate
[14:07] <seb128> mvo: you can still come and visit whenever you want ;-)
[14:08] <Keybuk> mvo: they have meetings at silly times ;)
[14:08] <mvo> I will still hang out in #ubuntu-desktop!
[14:08] <seb128> mvo: ;-)
[14:08] <seb128> so who is staying on board?
[14:08] <mvo> I don't like the sound of silly times ...
[14:08] <seb128> that will be faster this way ;-)
[14:09] <Keybuk> seb128: we'll be getting a whole bunch of new people
[14:09] <Keybuk> but since cvd hasn't sent that e-mail yet, I'm going to defer until then :)
[14:10] <Keybuk> the changes in the Ubuntu Platform team aren't anything to be concerned about
[14:10] <MacSlow> seb128, you'll get a new sidekick don't you? :)
[14:10] <Keybuk> we're all just one big team, and people moving around a bit between the individual parts should be seen as a good thing
[14:10] <seb128> MacSlow: "new", I don't have a old one ;-)
[14:10] <kwwii> seb128: you got me, baby
[14:11]  * tedg thinks that we need to make seb128 a cape with a GNOME logo on it...
[14:11] <seb128> kwwii: you want to do GNOME updates now? ;-)
[14:11] <Keybuk> ok, let's move on
[14:11] <Keybuk> we have a bit of a monster topic here
[14:11] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Handling the logout applet/old fusa -> new fusa transition on upgrades
[14:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  Handling the logout applet/old fusa -> new fusa transition on upgrades
[14:11] <Keybuk> mdz: are you here?
[14:11] <MacSlow> seb128, ehm... yeah right damn :)
[14:11] <seb128> Keybuk: not sure that's a meeting topic
[14:11] <MacSlow> kwwii, you more like a sidepunch
[14:11] <seb128> ie, the discussion is going on the bug tracker
[14:11] <pitti> right, there's a lively discussion going on, and right now it's still not clear what the best way forward is
[14:12] <kwwii> MacSlow: kidney-punch-ken can be my new nick
[14:12] <Keybuk> pitti: you proposed it as a topic for discussion, was there anything you wanted to discuss here that isn't being handled in the bug?>
[14:12] <MacSlow> Keybuk, tedg: won't that also touch me (new gdm) at some point
[14:12] <seb128> I think the bug is right place to discuss that
[14:12] <pitti> but the question I'm still looking for an answer for is whether it's possible to make g-p load f-u-s-a if your gconf says you either have the old fusa or the old logout applet?
[14:12] <mvo> was the interactive upgrade hook idea discussed (maybe I got dropped from the CC)?
[14:13] <Keybuk> MacSlow: shouldn't do - the main problem here is moving applets around in existing user sessions
[14:13] <pitti> mvo: didn't reply yet; it's a fallback, but it still has problems
[14:13] <seb128> pitti: I'm going to reply to mdz mails listing 3 courses of actions
[14:13] <seb128> I started on this mail before the meetic
[14:13] <pitti> mvo: like, after that you can't ever go back
[14:13] <kwwii> in any case, I am going to make sure that the little power button icon comes back (effectively killing the little green man)
[14:13] <pitti> ok, let's continue to discuss it by mail then
[14:13] <Keybuk> seb128: great!
[14:13] <Keybuk> that seems like a good idea
[14:13] <Keybuk> if we have three options, we can rate the pro/con of each, and make an informed decision
[14:13] <Keybuk> good move
[14:13] <mvo> pitti: thats a matter of the script i think, we could add code that allows this
[14:14] <seb128> mvo: "it's only code"
[14:14] <mvo> seb128: heh :)
[14:14] <pitti> mvo: I mean in terms of dual-booting other distros/releases, or sharing your /home in a network with several workstations with different releases, etc.
[14:14] <tedg> seb128: Are you going to include the "all new namespaces" option -- that's presently my favorite on the list of bad options :)
[14:15] <pitti> I am really veto'ing the idea of any automatic gconftool'ification during upgrade
[14:15] <mvo> pitti: right, shared home is a problem
[14:15] <seb128> tedg: no, one of the option is doing configuration changes on upgrade though
[14:15] <Keybuk> ok thanks
[14:15] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Sponsoring Overview update
[14:15] <MootBot> New Topic:  Sponsoring Overview update
[14:16] <Keybuk> [LINK] http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
[14:16] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
[14:16] <Keybuk> a quick scan, I couldn't find anything there
[14:16] <pitti> some are already uploaded, too
[14:16] <pitti> (beta freeze, hanging in unapproved)
[14:16] <Keybuk> pitti: yeah, I cross-referenced that
[14:16] <seb128> Keybuk: I don't think sponsorship is really revelant this week anyway since uploads don't go through
[14:16] <Keybuk> so well done everybody!
[14:17] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Release Status
[14:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  Release Status
[14:17] <Keybuk> pitti: over to you, the list of bugs is in the agenda (as I found them)
[14:17] <seb128> thanks to dholbach, pitti and mvo who helped on the GNOME 2.24 sponsoring
[14:17]  * norsetto wonders what is the number between parenthesis
[14:17]  * mvo hugs seb128
[14:17] <seb128> norsetto: the days since when the bug is waiting
[14:17]  * seb128 hugs mvo
[14:17] <pitti> Keybuk: where is that list?
[14:17] <norsetto> seb128: ah cool
[14:17] <pitti> Keybuk: intrepid bugs, cherrypicked the desktopish ones?
[14:18] <pitti> Keybuk: from last week's release team meeting we squashed all but that fusa bug
[14:18] <Keybuk> pitti: intrepid bugs, by assignee for our team
[14:19] <Keybuk> pitti: anything you want to chase in this meeting, given the opportunity of everybody here?
[14:19] <pitti> tedg: will bug 261084 still be on your plate after you move team?
[14:19] <Keybuk> it will
[14:19] <Keybuk> we will always have a relationship between the desktop and experience teams, where features they wish to land will require co-ordination
[14:20] <Keybuk> and we will always be assigning bugs back to them to be fixed
[14:20] <Keybuk> and many of those may be Release Critical
[14:20] <Keybuk> and almost certainly will involve upgrades
[14:20] <pitti> ok
[14:20] <pitti> otherwise, the only thing that currently nags me is ekiga 3.0
[14:20] <Keybuk> someone asked me about gimp
[14:20] <pitti> the PPA packages are far from any working state
[14:20] <kwwii> the new gimp is probably important, very noticeable
[14:20] <tedg> pitti: Yeah, I'm not 100% on that one yet.  It's not obvious that it's GPM's fault, but it might be the easiest place to fix it.
[14:20] <MacSlow> 2.6.0 is out yeah!
[14:20] <seb128> grrrrr
[14:21] <seb128> the new version is available since yesterday
[14:21] <MacSlow> seb128, we need 2.6.0 ;-)
[14:21] <seb128> and intrepid is frozen for beta
[14:21] <pitti> so ATM I'm inclined to refuse ekiga 3.0, unless someone will actually come along and package it
[14:21] <MacSlow> seb128, don't worry ... I'm happy compiling it myself
[14:21] <Keybuk> also tedg will continue to help maintain some packages for at least the time being since we have nobody else to hand them to yet ;)
[14:21] <seb128> if users could something wait before making a fuss about upgrades when they can't be done anyway
[14:21] <pitti> MacSlow: same problem, I think; we need someone investing the time to package it properly
[14:21] <Keybuk> (he also may want to keep them to keep his hand in ;P)
[14:21]  * tedg found a PPA for GIMP 2.6 ~c-korn :)
[14:21] <pitti> since I don't like to deviate much of our team's time away from bug fixes
[14:22] <MacSlow> tedg is the man of the minute :)
[14:22] <seb128> pitti: I really think we should have ekiga 3.0 and gimp 2.6 in intrepid
[14:22] <tedg> MacSlow: Actually have to give credit to _MMA_, he sent it to me.
[14:22] <pitti> seb128: I agree that it would be nice as well, but it will probably require two full mandays to get ekiga
[14:22] <MacSlow> tedg, ok
[14:22] <seb128> intrepid is not a lts and that's something quite some users will be wanting
[14:23] <MacSlow> gimp 2.6.0 would be very wicked to be in intrepid
[14:23] <MacSlow> honestly
[14:23]  * tedg is was hoping for something > 8-bit per channel in 2.6 :(
[14:23] <pitti> any packaging volunteers? :-)
[14:23] <seb128> MacSlow: agreed and I'll do the update, but it's available for one day and intrepid is frozen
[14:23] <seb128> pitti: I'll do gimp, not sure about ekiga
[14:23] <seb128> pitti: apparently gimp require some MIR action thoguh
[14:24] <seb128> though
[14:24]  * Riddell throws krita at tedg 
[14:24] <MacSlow> seb128, so it'll stay in a PPA or move to universe?
[14:24] <MacSlow> seb128, or is it in main?
[14:24] <seb128> MacSlow: neither of those
[14:24] <tedg> Riddell: Have you seen the download size?  It pulls in these crazy large libraries that I don't have installed, QT, KDELibs, etc. :)
[14:24] <seb128> it'll go to main
[14:24] <MacSlow> Riddell, hehe
[14:25] <pitti> seb128: yay bigger CDs :)
[14:25] <MacSlow> DVDs
[14:25] <seb128> pitti: those might be optional
[14:25] <seb128> see bug #276839
[14:25] <MacSlow> the ever demanding community
[14:25] <MacSlow> :)
[14:26] <seb128> Keybuk: ok, let's move on, the gimp update is on my list already
[14:26] <Keybuk> ok
[14:26] <Keybuk> [TOPIC] Any other business
[14:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
[14:26] <kwwii> we have to remove the gnome themes package
[14:27] <seb128> no we don't?
[14:27] <kwwii> so I will be talking to seb128 and mvo about how to do that correctly with updating and all
[14:27] <kwwii> seb128: trust me, we do :-)
[14:27] <seb128> there is no correct way to do that
[14:27] <seb128> some people might be using those themes
[14:27] <seb128> we should just stop installing it by default
[14:27] <seb128> but we don't want to remove it on upgrade
[14:27] <kwwii> seb128: the current suggestion is to hack the thing into two pieces and add the ugly-themes part to anyone updating
[14:28] <kwwii> so if you update you get effectively the same thing as before, just in two packages instead of one
[14:28] <mpt> Please don't actually call it ugly-themes
[14:28] <seb128> the split is what I suggested
[14:28] <mpt> We've had enough headaches with ugly codecs :-)
[14:28] <seb128> (not the name)
[14:28] <tedg> mpt: gnome-themes-looser-artists?
[14:28] <kwwii> mpt: lol, no worries
[14:28] <seb128> mpt: in this case they really consider those ugly apparently ;-)
[14:28] <kwwii> gnome-theme-extras or such
[14:28] <mvo> what is the issue?
[14:28] <seb128> there is already an -extras
[14:29] <seb128> mvo: some themes are ugly apparently and we want to stop shipping those by default
[14:29] <kwwii> mvo: I wanted to talk to you about how to make the updater do it right
[14:29] <seb128> that's easy for the upgrade
[14:29] <seb128> but that's another slap in the face for people using other upgrade tools
[14:30] <pedro_> which themes? Mist, Crux and such?
[14:30] <kwwii> pedro_: yes, think along those lines (although mist is quite popular it seems)
[14:30] <tedg> Oh, we should increase kwwii's mail: I like the name "gnome-themes-that-kwwii-doesnt-like"
[14:30] <pedro_> yes it's that's why i was asking which ones
[14:31] <mvo> and we would just ignore if people are using them (because they like ugly) and that they drop to somehthing else after the upgrade ?
[14:31] <seb128> mvo: the idea would be to install ugly for people upgrading but not on new installs
[14:31] <kwwii> mvo: the idea is that they will get the extra package with the "ugly" themes in it if they upgrade, no matter whether they really use one of the themes or not
[14:32] <mvo> right, so we just keep them in gnome-themes (or were they are now) and have a new package "gnome-themes-nice" that is then seeded to ubuntu-desktop?
[14:32] <mvo> and gnome-themes is simply unseeded?
[14:32] <kwwii> mvo: no idea, that is why I wanted to discuss it with you :-)
[14:32] <mvo> than people upgrading keep their theme but new installs only get the shinny ones
[14:32] <kwwii> right, that sounds correct
[14:32] <seb128> mvo: we were going to go the other way around, gnome-themes and gnome-themes-ugly
[14:32] <mvo> ok, I think that should work
[14:33] <mdz> Keybuk: (phone)
[14:33] <seb128> mvo: I don't think we should rename gnome-themes
[14:33] <kwwii> we an call it gnome-themes-legacy or such
[14:33] <norsetto> mvo, seb128: why not gnome-themes-legacy indtead of -ugly
[14:33] <kwwii> s/an/can
[14:33] <kwwii> hehe, exactly :-)
[14:33] <seb128> maybe gnome-themes should be a dummy package depends on gnome-themes-good and gnome-themes-ugly
[14:33]  * norsetto high five kwwii
[14:34] <seb128> and install gnome-themes-good by default only
[14:34] <kwwii> seb128: whatever you think would be the best long-term solution
[14:34] <norsetto> seb128: just drop the -good/-ugly dichotomy, some people can find it offending
[14:34] <seb128> I want "apt-get install gnome-themes" to install what upstream call gnome-themes
[14:35] <seb128> we are in for upstream conflicts otherwise
[14:35] <mvo> lets discuss in what direction the rename should happen offline - I think we agree on the general principle :)
[14:35] <seb128> norsetto: the names were not a suggestion but an example
[14:35] <mvo> seb128: aha, I think you misread my proposal, that was my intention. gnome-themes stay, we get a new gnome-theme-ubuntu that is now default dep of ubuntu-desktop
[14:35] <seb128> mvo: ok, we agree then ;-)
[14:36] <Keybuk> it sounds like you're agreeing with each other ;)
[14:36] <kwwii> right, ok, I will stay in touch with seb128 and mvo about this
[14:36] <Keybuk> kwwii: great
[14:36] <Keybuk> ok, any other any other business?
[14:36]  * mvo high fives seb128
[14:36] <kwwii> tomorrow is a holiday in germany
[14:36] <seb128> Keybuk: it's late in the cycle but I'm wondering if we should drop nautilus-cd-burner from the default installation
[14:36] <Riddell> kwwii: octoberfest?
[14:36] <pitti> German unity
[14:37] <seb128> Keybuk: that can wait next cycle though
[14:37] <Riddell> same thing :)
[14:37] <MacSlow> Riddell, actually the "Oktoberfest" is already in full swing in bavaria ... started well before october :)
[14:37] <Hobbsee> no...you can't get rid of the nice themes!
[14:37] <Keybuk> seb128: I'd vaguely say next cycle at this point
[14:37] <MacSlow> Riddell, kwwii should know he lives there :)
[14:38] <Keybuk> dropping things after beta seems wrong
[14:38] <seb128> Keybuk: ok, good enough, it let us time to discuss it
[14:38] <mpt> dropping nautilus-cd-burner seems wrong too ;-)
[14:38] <seb128> it just seems to not bring a lot since brasero work better in most cases nowadays
[14:39] <MacSlow> seb128, isn't there a nautlius "plugin" for brasero?
[14:39] <MacSlow> kind of replacing nautilus-cd-burner?
[14:39]  * MacSlow looks it up again
[14:39] <MacSlow> seb128, I vaguely remember something along those lines
[14:39] <seb128> MacSlow: nautilus-cd-burner doesn't do a lot
[14:40] <seb128> basically it means we have to maintain two software to do the same things
[14:40] <seb128> users are confused that the places menus open a different software which has limited capabilities
[14:40]  * mvo always liked n-c-d for its simplicity
[14:41] <mvo> but I see the point
[14:41] <seb128> mvo: brasero --data is basically as simple
[14:42] <MacSlow> seb128, ah... wasn't really a plugin ... brasero just can open up a n-c-b project
[14:42] <mpt> This is an annoying example of upstreams doing completely the wrong thing
[14:42] <seb128> mpt: why?
[14:43] <seb128> mpt: the issue is that nautilus is a file manager, it's not something where you can easily add audio project or video DVD concepts
[14:43] <mpt> nautilus-cd-burner doesn't have the features that Brasero does because, why, they want to keep it simple? And therefore we're pressured to ship Brasero *instead of* nautilus-cd-burner, thus leaving the overall interface more complicated and inconsistent than if the features had been added to nautilus-cd-burner in the first place.
[14:43] <mpt> Bananas.
[14:44] <pitti> it seems to me that the people who complain are really the power users who actually care about doing weird things with CDs
[14:45] <kwwii> pitti: full ack, I doubt most people do more than burn music or data
[14:45] <pitti> personally I never needed anything else than nautilus and n-c-b for data burning
[14:45] <seb128> pitti: not only, n-c-b doesn't give you an indication of how much data you selected and how much your media contains for example
[14:45] <MacSlow> pitti, burning ISO-images only work with brasero
[14:45] <seb128> nautilus is a file-manager
[14:45] <pitti> MacSlow: hm? right-click, burn, done
[14:45] <seb128> it doesn't make it easy to add nice widgets in random location for such things
[14:46] <MacSlow> pitti, that always hoses my CD-Rs
[14:46] <pitti> seb128: don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating to drop brasero or so :)
[14:46] <seb128> MacSlow: that's called a bug
[14:46] <pitti> just defending n-c-b a bit
[14:46] <seb128> pitti: I'm just saying that people will advocate that brasero --data is not so much complicated that n-c-b
[14:46] <seb128> and has some extra nice indicators and features
[14:46] <seb128> and they have a point
[14:47] <seb128> but anyway not something for this cyle
[14:47] <seb128> cycle
[14:48] <seb128> and not really a meeting agenda item
[14:48] <mpt> yes, sorry for the sidetrack
[14:48] <Keybuk> ;_0
[14:48] <Keybuk> ok
[14:48] <Keybuk> #endmeeting
[14:48] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 08:48.
[14:48] <Keybuk> thanks all
[14:48] <mvo> thanks!
[14:48] <kwwii> thanks, bye
[14:48] <pitti> thanks all!
[14:48] <pedro_> thanks
[14:49] <pitti> let's get that beta out and squash bugs by the dozen
[14:49]  * pitti ^5s the desktoppers
[14:49]  * mpt cheers the programmers
[14:49] <MacSlow> d-feet!
[14:50] <pitti> MacSlow: it's pretty useful, isn't it?
[14:50] <seb128> thanks
[14:50] <MacSlow> pitti, ehm... hm... at least it's not as bare-bone as dbus-* :)
[14:51] <MacSlow> doh... screw iwl3945
[14:59] <persia> OK.  Who's here for the Java meeting?
[15:00] <Koon> o/
[15:03] <persia> OK.  We're not all here, but there's a few of us :)
[15:03] <persia> Agenda doesn't have anything special on it, so we'll just hit the roadmap.
[15:03] <persia> robilad seems absent, but being this close to release, new tasks aren't as essential.
[15:04] <persia> slytherin: Are we all done with MoveToUniverse, or are there a couple still blocked?
[15:04] <slytherin> persia: Nothing blocked, just few bugs pending due to beta freeze. No archive changes are being processed.
[15:05] <persia> slytherin: OK, so we're expecting everything to be processed post-beta?  Everything is in the archive-admin queue now?
[15:05] <persia> Are there any approvals outstanding?
[15:05] <slytherin> persia: Just one, bug #277088
[15:06] <slytherin> I forgot to log the bug after the sync request got processed
[15:06] <persia> OK.  I'll double-check, and ACK that.  Does it need -release approval?
[15:07] <slytherin> persia: Don't think so.
[15:07] <persia> OK.
[15:07] <persia> Sounds good then.  After that, I suppose we're basically blocked until the autoimporter starts, right?
[15:08] <slytherin> persia: yes
[15:08] <slytherin> By the way, there is another sync bug which I am not sure if it will require -release approval. But the package is not moving to multiverse. The sync is just to fix problem on powerpc. bug #277102
[15:10] <persia> That oughtn't require motu-release.  Added to my list.
[15:10] <persia> Anything else?
[15:10] <slytherin> Nothing. Now I am mainly looking into any easy FTBFS fixes.
[15:10] <persia> Great!
[15:10] <persia> Koon: How is the progress with the new improved maven plan?
[15:10] <Koon> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Specs/MavenSupportSpec is finalized, I welcome reviews and/or official approval
[15:14] <slytherin> Koon: You may want to add 'tomcat 6' in the section of 'On the server' of beta announcement. :-)
[15:15] <Koon> slytherin: where is it ?
[15:16] <persia> Koon: Looks good to me, and seems to cover all the points.  You'll need to assign an approver if you want official approval.
[15:17] <Koon> persia: any suggestion ?
[15:17] <persia> I'd check with doko, and see if he's willing to be the approver.  If not, could be me, I suppose.
[15:18] <Koon> OK, I'll check with him
[15:19] <persia> From reviewing that, it looks like implementation for jaunty ought be fairly straightforward, and we can probably even have a lot of it done in coordination with pkg-java.
[15:19] <persia> Koon: Anything else?
[15:19] <Koon> no.
[15:19] <slytherin> Koon: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IntrepidIbex/BetaAnnouncement
[15:20] <Koon> slytherin: looks like tomcat is already there, no ?
[15:20] <persia> OK.  Anyone have anything else to raise today?  Anything critical for release?
[15:21] <slytherin> Koon: right. I just saw the Other section.
[15:22] <slytherin> persia: do you have any idea if doko plans to update openjdk? We are currently using beta release.
[15:22] <persia> slytherin: I haven't heard anything specific.  I know the target was to try to get something that passed the complaince test.  I don't think the version number was consdiered as important.  I haven't run the complaince test to know if we're there yet.
[15:23] <slytherin> ok.
[15:24] <persia> I think that team usually meets in some hours (maybe 6 or 8 or something), and it may be discussed then, but I don't remember the schedule exactly, and the room scheduling, while getting better, isn't fixed entirely yet.
[15:28] <slytherin> Ok. So there is nothing else form my side.
[15:31] <persia> RIght.  Ending the meeting then :)  Have a great week!
[15:31] <Koon> :)