loolStevenK: So we should drop moblin-media09:10
loolStevenK: Can you give elisa a go?  :-)09:10
StevenKlool: I have just commited the seed changes, replacing it with totem and gthumb09:10
loolYou're in love with gthumb aren't you09:10
StevenKpersia is to blame09:10
StevenKLet me install elisa09:11
loolpersia: What about eog?09:11
persiaI'm not a huge fan of gthumb, I just think that f-spot has too many dependencies for intrepid, and look forward to directhex's improvements for jaunty.09:11
StevenKelisa is *enormous*09:11
persialool: Doesn't have a thumbnail overview function.  Can't mount cameras.09:11
loolStevenK: Well, it's python, it has many plugins, many python deps, but I'd say the packages themselves are big because of some artwork09:12
StevenKBut, but, 88MB09:12
loolStevenK: It's a bit like emacs, you can run it fullscreen and replace your whole OS with it!09:12
persialool: That's precisely the behaviour we *don't* want for smaller devices.09:13
StevenKSure. I'll also upload -default-settings that calls elisa rather than hildon-desktop?09:13
loolpersia: Ok, I agree f-spot is a bit heavy09:13
lool(even I prefer it)09:13
StevenKI think elisa is too big09:13
loolpersia: I don't see the relation09:13
loolelisa is sexy, has bling, big icons, is easy to navigate in because it's meant to be possible to use it from your TV09:14
StevenKBig icons == badness on small screens09:14
persiaNo.  Big icons == badness on low resolution screens.09:14
loolI think the media center design caracteristics make it a good fit for PMP09:14
persiaNone of the icons for Ubuntu Mobile are large enough for my 5" screen.09:15
loolpersia: Remember it's meant to be displayed full screen09:15
persiaIn fact, at the same resolution, we need *bigger* icons on smaller screens.09:15
loolEach icon is displayed on the full screen; it's scalable not big in term of pixmaps size09:15
loolIt will be big on all screen sizes :)09:15
persiaNo, it will be small on my 3.5" 852x480 screen.09:16
persiaJust lots of pixels.09:16
loolComparatively to your screen, it will be big09:16
persiaOK.  I'll accept that.09:16
StevenKI think it's too big. But I'll try it09:17
loolStevenK: Don't forget it would provide all media playback facilities, import and all, for photos, videos, music, online viewing (youtube flickr etc.)09:19
persialool: How does the import work?  Would that conflict with the stuff being done by thunar?  Have you tested it on recent daily images?09:19
loolStevenK: Make sure you try on a host with OpenGL though; I'd say that's the biggest blocker in our ecosystem09:19
StevenKIf it requires GL, then I'd say it isn't suitable currently09:20
loolpersia: I don't know the work done by thunar; I think elisa will import media on an usb stick when it gets automounted09:20
persiaYeah, GL is right out.09:20
loolStevenK: It's purely GL09:21
StevenKlibdvdread3? Give me a break09:21
loolStevenK: Eh how do you intend to play DVDs in your media center!  :)09:21
persialool: I'm very leery of adding anything to the seeds that hasn't been tested.  Please test it against the images.09:21
loolpersia: Are you suggesting I don't test stuff I add to the seeds?09:22
persiaStevenK: And, yes, it's quite easy to attach a DVD player to a MID (I have done so, to boot off the liveCD).09:22
persialool: Are you not suggesting elisa be added to the seeds?  Am I confused?09:22
loolI'm suggesting StevenK tries out elisa in the eventuality of adding it to the seeds09:22
persiaOh.  Then I suggest you like to convince other people to test stuff before it gets added to the seeds :)09:23
loolTBH with the state of the poulsbo drivers, I don't think we can target elisa as a default09:25
loolBut GL can't stay a blocker for much longer with the trains of Clutter apps arriving09:26
persiaOh, I don't think it's just about the psb drivers.  I dislike dependency on GL.09:26
persiaYeah, that's all the more reason to not depend on GL for intrepid.  It's exceptionally likely that jaunty will require it.09:26
loolpersia: Can we discuss the upstart session job WRT openvt?09:29
persialool: Sure.  What's your question?09:30
* persia boots today's image for discussion09:30
lool(I'm still syncing today's image)09:31
loolpersia: I'd like to revisit where we left stuff in terms of startx from upstart09:31
persiaThat's fine.  We can still talk about it.09:31
persiaOK.  My memory is that the issue was that we needed to start *after* hal, but wanted to start *before* other services in runlevel 2.09:32
persiaAs a result, I generated a sysvinit job that starts the upstart job to work around the race condition.09:32
loolThe three issues I'm aware of: a) startx failing due to security checks on fd0 being /dev/ttyN, b) startx being racy with other stuff, starting but the Xorg vt not being visble c) Xorg starting before hal09:32
loolWe added openvt for a), you added some init script for c)09:33
loolI'd like to drop openvt when I upload the new xorg09:33
persiaIf the new xorg works around the problem, I'm happy to drop openvt09:34
loolI don't quite know the impact this has on b)09:34
loolDo people still get Xorg in a non-visible VT currently?09:34
loolI don't, but I might just be lucky09:34
persiaRight.  We're solving that with openvt -s right now.09:34
loolWell it didn't solve it int he beginning09:35
loolXorg was visible for a split second, and then boom, back to console09:35
loolXorg on VT709:35
persiaI usually get Xorg on VT1, or so it seems based on Alt-arrow changes in the booted system.09:36
loolAt least it still works merrily in KVM in the current image09:38
loolHow come the keyboard supports Finland and not France, pff09:39
persiaHrm.  I think we ought push the new xorg, and then try changing openvt in a variety of environments to see the results.  If it works well, we can drop openvt09:39
persiaWhich keyboard?  How?09:39
persialool: Whilst you're looking at xorg, do you know why UseFBDevice is hardcoded in xorg.conf for -MID, and missing in -Mobile?  Is this some lpia hackery?09:44
loolI don't know09:48
loolWeird, when I double click the speaker applet in mobile, I get the on screen keyboard09:51
loolActually it just pops up randomly09:52
persiaFor me, once it was opened, it just stayed open every time I wanted to enter text, even when it obscured the place where I wanted to enter the text.09:53
loologra: I know vertical pixels are expensive, but the title is cut for all apps in the list of tasks; either we shouldn't display text and have bigger icons, or the task list should be at the bottom to have longer titles09:54
loolActually the text could also be below the icon to help somewhat09:54
loolpersia: What's annoying is that it covers the panel so you can't reclick it from the na09:54
persiaI'd be just as happy having the text only be available in a hover context hint.  On my zaurus, there are only icons, no text.09:54
persialool: Just hit the desktop button in the lower right.  That lets you access the menu.  The keyboard will then pop up again when you launch an application.09:55
loolpersia: yeah, that's the solution I came too as well09:56
persiaI'm not sure it's best, but have no idea how to fix it.09:56
loolIt took five minutes to NM to get network access pfff09:58
persiaThat's just NM.10:00
loolpopup windows can't stay without decorations, otherwise they are to be confused with the underlying window10:02
loologra: Hmm we didn't setup a call yesterday10:03
mdzlool: I tried the ubuntu-mobile.img daily and it installed fine, but the resulting KVM image won't boot (stops at "Booting from hard disk..." before GRUB)10:16
loolmdz: I just kvm started today's ubuntu-mobile.img10:16
lool"kvm -m 512 -hda ubuntu-mobile.img" is how I startede10:17
loolI'm on amd6410:17
loolErr I just tried again and it's hanging where you say it hangs10:18
persiaYesterday's image worked great.  I'll try today's again.10:18
loolDid I just wait for long or is it racy hmm10:18
mdzlool: kvm changed in the past few days10:19
loolmdz: It worked minutes ago with the same image, same packages, I didn't upgrade /anything/10:19
mdzlool: so you have an image which was booting before but is no longer booting, without change?10:19
loolIt doesn't load grub10:19
StevenKogra: Ping10:21
loolI booted an old -mobile image this morning, it had no keyboard/mouse due to known bug, rsynced the last image, it booted and worked fine10:21
loolStevenK: It's hard to "double click" on the Q1's touch screen, perhaps kourou should allow launching by single clicking?10:22
StevenKlool: I've noticed that.10:22
StevenKlool: Should I allow both, or just single click?10:23
loolStevenK: Perhaps it's best to allow both, I fear if you don't the double click will cause two launches10:23
StevenKlool: It depends which callback gets called10:23
persiaHrm.  the ubuntu-mobile image seems to have been updated in the last 8 hours.  Anyone know why?10:24
loolBah midbrowser doesn't come up10:24
loolpersia: There was a respin for the ubiquity upload and the langpacks10:24
loolpersia: I think I mentionned this 12 hours ago here10:24
persialool: There's a bug about that: it seems to have died in the last xul changes.10:24
StevenKpersia: Because dailies were generated?10:25
persialool: Yes, but I downloaded ubuntu-mobile about 5 hours ago, and I just discovered that what I have doesn't match what is on the server, and am downloading it again.10:25
persiaThis is more recent than the other stuff.10:25
loolStevenK: Also, it's kind of weird that one can select an app as in highlight the entry10:25
persiaStevenK: But *only* ubuntu-mobile was updated out of the set I track (ubuntu desktop alternate lpia, ubuntu studio alternate i386, ubuntu desktop live i386, ubuntu mid, ubuntu mobile)10:25
loolIt's like you could highlight it or a group of apps and do something with them10:25
loolBut Enter, of Shift+Arrows don't do anything to the selection10:26
StevenKYou can't, but iconview allows selection10:26
StevenKpersia, lool: -mobile is generated at 2:45am BST10:26
loolmdz: I suspect kvm/qemu mangles the disk image to allow booting10:27
loolmdz: I'm computing the md5sum of the images after rsyncing10:27
persiaStevenK: There was an update today later in the day.10:27
loolmdz: And it doesn't match anymore, but it matched after the rsync10:27
loolI'm pretty sure I'll rsync it and it will boot10:27
loolmdz: Yup, that worked10:28
loolmdz: It's booting again10:29
StevenK20081002 was published at 0327 BST10:29
persialool: The live image, or the post-install image?10:29
StevenKIt would have hit cdimage.u.c approximately five minutes after10:29
loolpersia: The .img live image from cdimage in kvm10:29
persiaHrm.  Odd.  Perhaps I updated as early as that.10:29
loolmdz: And it boots again10:29
loolI did launch the installer, I hope it didn't mangle sda when probing10:30
persialool: That's not the described issue.  It's the post-install boot.10:30
StevenKapt-get install devscripts debootstrap germinate bzr liburi-perl zsh openssh-client10:30
loolWell I got the live image in the same state10:30
StevenKOops, wrong window10:30
loolStevenK: Do you think you could add icons to the list of menus?10:31
persiaHurrah.  passwd/auto-login preseeding *is* working.10:31
StevenKlool: Icons to the drop downs themselves?10:31
persialool: We don't even have an icon for the Home menu.10:31
loolStevenK: yes10:32
StevenKPersonally, I'm afraid of the C code that drives that drop-down, given m-b-f10:32
loolpersia: It's quite easy to find one IMO10:32
StevenKI suspect it neatly surpasses my knowledge of GTK and C, too10:32
ograStevenK, oh, sorry, feel free to change the timeout value ... 10:32
StevenKogra: I did.10:33
StevenKogra: It's now 50, and there is a message, check out the branch on antimony10:33
ograi just didnt want it to st there forever10:34
ograi dont care about the length10:34
StevenKogra: Can you please tag and push your changes to ubuntu-mid-default-settings? :-)10:34
ograoh, right, probably should also create a branch for the mobile settings package10:35
loolpersia: the ubiquity "user identity" screen overflows on the Q110:35
persialool: Which image?10:35
loolpersia: rmid10:35
persiaOK.  Which direction?  It works for me at 800x600 under vesa, so I'm a little confused.10:36
loolpersia: vertically, in French, "step N out of 7" is over the "this name will be used to identify the computer blah"10:37
loolOuhc, python traceback10:37
persiaOdd.  I'll take another look.10:37
loolat bootdevice=self.db.get('grub-installed/bootdev')10:38
persiaYeah, that's something in grub-installer that I keep getting interrupted from investigating.  Unfortunately, the alternate desktop CD has inconsistent packages today, and I'm *not* asking for any respins during beta for lpia desktop alternate.10:38
loolCould you -vvv the issue, what's inconsistent?10:39
=== njpatel is now known as njpatel_away
persiaWhich issue?10:39
ogralool, regardnig yourcomplaint about the menu size on mobile, did you test on the Q1 ? 10:40
ograor on something smaller ?10:40
* ogra still finds the menu finger friendly 10:40
loologra: I'm about to test on the Q110:41
loologra: But if the size is sufficient in the menu, why not make the panel as small?10:41
loolI'm writing the fixed ubuntu-mobile.img now10:41
ograi use the panel with my thumb10:41
loologra: And not the menu?10:42
ograif i hold my device with oth hands i usually can reach all four corners with my thumb10:42
ograif i do some action in an app or the menu i use my index finger10:43
loolRight, so the menu isn't usable with thumb only10:43
ogratry it10:43
loolI will, but there's a logic flaw here :)10:43
ograi agree it *could* be bigger but not that it *must* be bigger :)10:43
loologra: The world wont fall under two small icons; I first noticed because it was visually weird10:44
ograi fully agree about the other two points10:44
ograbut at lest the tasklist one will require patching.... so nothing for intrepid anymore i fear10:45
persiamdz: How did you call KVM for the install, and how did you call it for the boot of the result?10:46
ograframing the popup windows is just a config change i think10:46
mdzpersia: ah, good question10:46
mdzin order to get it to boot, I had to specify the .img as -hda10:46
persiaRIght, and grub got installed on hda.10:46
mdzand install to a disk image on -hdb10:46
mdzthen swap them10:47
mdzI thought GRUB was supposed to handle that case correctly these days, though10:47
ograshould that matter in the times of UUIDs ?10:47
mdzpersia: how do you do it?10:47
persiaIf you want to install for KVM, I think you need to run something like -hda disk.img -hdb ubuntu-mobile.img -boot b10:47
persiamdz: I repeatly replicate your results under KVM, but reboot with the same definitions of -hda and -hdb, so have no issues (grub points to hdb, which boots).10:48
loologra: the menu entries are too far to the right for my thumb10:48
persiamdz: On real HW, I remove the install USB key, and grub did the right thing.10:48
mdzpersia: -boot b means boot from floppy10:48
persiaI thought that was -boot a10:48
ogralool, but you can reach the menu icon with it to open the menu 10:48
loologra: So I'd say it doesn't matter much to have big icons in the top level panel; the only useful big icon there is the close one10:48
loologra: What's the point if I'm going to use my index anyway10:49
loolAnd I need it for the browser or thunderbird too10:49
persiaReading the manpage, I have no idea how to boot from the second hard drive.  If this was a CD image, there'd be no such issue.10:49
mdzpersia: so is it actually clobbering the boot sector on ubuntu-mobile.img?10:49
persiaLooks that way to me.  Let me try something.10:49
mdzpersia: I think we need a standard recipe for this in the wiki10:49
ogralool, well, i'll look if i can do anything about menu size, but i fear that will be a heavy patch10:49
persiamdz: Yes, that's precisely what it's doing.  If you later try to boot with only -hda to the modified image, it doesn't work.10:50
persiamdz: I think you're right.10:50
loologra: Well as I was saying, there are many apps / menus too10:50
loologra: Not sure it's a good idea to make the menu entries much bigger10:50
mdzpersia: ideally we would boot from it as a USB device, but I don't know if qemu supports that10:50
persiaStevenK: What do you think about creating .iso images, and pointing people to usb-creator if they don't have a USB CD drive?10:50
loologra: Perhaps menu should be slightly bigger and panel smaller?10:51
mdzpersia: -usbdevice disk:ubuntu-mobile.img probably works, but I don't think it has support for booting from USB10:51
loolmdz: No, that's currently broken10:51
persiamdz: hardy qemu doesn't.  I don't have kvm running on intrepid today.10:51
loolmdz: Ah you mean fake an USB hard disk, sorry, I thought passing throuhg of USB real devices10:51
ogralool, 36px panel ? 10:51
mdzlool: yes.  though, pass-through was working for me earlier in intrepid10:51
* ogra finds that a bit to small10:52
loolpersia: The same ubiquity screen works fine in mobile; I think we need to fiddle with gtk engines and font size10:52
persiaYeah, that's *really* small.10:52
loolmdz: In qemu or kvm?10:52
persialool: So you think that it's not something that needs changing in ubiquity?  That's good news.10:52
mdzlool: kvm10:53
loolI think it's fixed in qemu, and last time I checked it was fixed in debian-experimental's kvm, but this didn't build in intrepid for me, at this point I stopped trying to use that10:53
persiaShould be the same really.10:53
loolNah, they're not in sync10:53
loolkvm regularly pulls newer qemus, but there's a delay10:54
persiaAh, that makes sense.  Too bad we're seeing that for release.  Still, the fact that one can't boot off USB is likely worse than anything else.10:55
mdzgiven that kvm falls back to qemu-style emulation if kernel support isn't available, it seems a bit odd that they need to be separate10:55
persiaI still think using CD images is the easiest workaround.10:55
mdzprobably so10:57
mdzbut it would be very valuable to be able to test USB images more easily with kvm10:57
ogramdz, btw you shuould be able to test it in vbox if you dont get kvm to work  10:57
mdzogra: vbox can boot from USB?10:58
loolmdz: Well they work decently until you try to install them10:58
ogramdz, no but vditool can convert .img to .vdi10:58
persialool: They even install properly, it's just that one needs to manually reinstall grub on the resulting drive.10:58
persiaogra: How does that help the grub target issue?10:59
ogravditool DD ubuntu-mobile.vdi ubuntu-mobile.img10:59
ograand 10:59
ogravditool SHRINK ubuntu-mobile.vdi10:59
mdzlool: well, they boot anyway :-)10:59
mdzlool: the web browser doesn't start up10:59
ograpersia, just testing that10:59
loolmdz: Just raised that minutes ago (/lastlog midbrowser) it's caused by recent xulrunner changes it seems11:00
persiaogra: ubiquity is looking for the first HD to install grub, which is the sensible behaviour.11:00
persialool: I don't know if it is caused by those, but the timing is similar.11:00
ograpersia, ah11:00
persiaogra: So basically, for the virtual install experience, we need to recreate the "boot off USB" model, where the USB stick is *not* hd(0,0,0).11:01
loolGRRR /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/bin/apt is an alternative for "apt", I don't want an apt command launching java11:01
ograyeah, that wont work in vbox11:01
ograat least not in the free edition11:01
persiaYeah.  Let's make it a CD.  It would be nice to be able to test USB images in virtual environments, but the virtual environments don't support that.  We could use d-i directly, and have alternate disks, but I like the live images.11:02
persiaevand's work on usb-creator makes it nearly painless to convert a liveCD into a live USB stick.11:03
persiaAnd the virtualisation environments will boot off CD optionally, and then boot off the install HD later.11:03
persiaOtherwise users are just going to make a mess, and end up with images that boot to Error 2111:04
ograbah, vbow panics anyway11:06
ograi thought the kernel tem fixed that 11:06
persiapanics?  That's not good.11:06
persiaThere were reports of working vbox with both 32 and 64 bit guests in #ubuntu-testing recently.11:07
ograif you add a kernel option to drop virtualization it works 11:07
ograbut apparently the old oops is still there for me otherwise11:08
loolI wonder whether we should provide some magic hda image for qemu/kvm which allows chosing the boot device11:08
loolor a cdrom (or a floppy :) image11:08
persiaI'd rather do a CD image.11:08
loolWell netbooks don't always have CD11:09
looland UMPC even less so11:09
persiaThere are plenty of people (like me) that have CD drives that can connect to a MID, or have Mobile devices with built-in optical drives.11:09
loolSo it makes sense to provide people first with USB images11:09
persiaIt's also trivial to convert a CD image into a bootable USB key with usb-craetor.11:09
loolStill an additional step11:09
loolTo help us with virtual testing which is only a development use case11:10
persiaFor real HW, I agree that USB is the way to go, but mdz brings up a useful point that people may want to play with virtualisation, and doing so corrupts the existing images.11:10
persiaI wouldn't care so much if the problem was just that the result didn't boot, but that it corrupts the local image is a *big* issue to me.11:10
loolYeah, and I propose a bootstrap generic cdrom image to use our usb images11:10
loolrather than switching our usb images11:10
loolor we could have a cdrom-creator :)11:10
persiaWe don't have cdrom-creator, it's past UI Freeze.11:11
persiaIn July, I'd be inclined to agree with you.  Today, I'm not.11:11
loolYou didn't expect we'd switch from USB to CDROM images before release, did you?11:11
persiaActually, yes, I do.  It's about 20 lines of code.11:12
persiaIt's trivial to test, doesn't affect translations, etc.11:12
ograoh, it didnt panic thist time11:12
loolI want to release USB images, that's what people want to use to install on their devices11:12
ograpersia, and in vbox i actually see what you mean with the panel applets11:13
persiaEven though it's *trivial* to corrupt an image just because you wanted to try it before using it?  How do you think that will affect users' confidence in the results.11:13
persiausb-creator works *really* nicely, and does the job.  Lots of us who have lots of little devices have a CD drive around.11:13
* persia has bugs against usb-creator, but minor ones, really.11:14
loolusb-creator is an additional step and not everybody has a cd drive11:14
persiaYes, but it means that it's difficult to corrupt the image, rather than being trivial.11:14
persiaIt also allows people to play in a KVM environment safely.11:14
loolCome on, we're speaking of people running in kvm, not the target *users*11:14
ograwell, if we could get vditool on antimony converting them for vbox would be trivial11:15
loolPlus, we should fix the corruption11:15
persiaAnd no, playing in KVM from the live environment *isn't* suitable, because you can't reboot unless you create a special casper-rw filesystem.11:15
ograits two additional commands 11:15
persialool: How do we fix the corruption.  Change the standard behaviour of grub-install?11:15
=== njpatel_away is now known as njpatel
persiaIs that *really* safer than changing to CD images?11:15
persiaogra: Yes, but I don't want to have multiple images.  Trying to explain the multiplicity of images for Hardy was very annoying.11:16
ograand users using vbox usually have vditool installed locally11:17
persiaogra: Also, we want to encourage *installs*, not live environments.  There are too many little annoyances in live environments.  I *really* like having them, but only for demo purposes.11:17
loolmdz: At least the install of mobile worked fine with a fixed image on the Q111:18
* persia goes back to lpia, still entirely certain that CDs are far superior to USB keys11:20
* lool still believes we shouldn't change the format of the images just before release11:21
persialool: The current format is broken...11:21
loolI actually have a good argument for ISO images, but I'll hold it until we release11:21
loolpersia: Is not11:21
persiaWhat's your argument for ISO images.  Don't hold back.11:22
loolI booted our two images today without running any conversion tool whatsoever and I installed one of them successfully on a device, still no conversion tool whatsoever11:22
loolI already gave you the argument in another discussion, but I'm glad you missed it11:22
persiaNo, but you needed to run dd.  usb-creator provides a GUI.11:22
persiaPlease share again.  digging through logs just takes me longer and distracts me more.11:23
loolYou have no chance :)11:23
ograthe install seems to work fine if i boot vbox from secondary master11:24
loologra: I think it would work fine in kvm/qemu as well if I managed to boot from hdb11:24
persiaogra: vbox supports that!  Excellent.  Any idea how to do it in KVM?11:24
loolBut this doesn't seem to be possible with -boot11:24
loolIt's only hard disk11:24
ograpersia, no kvm user :)11:24
persiaogra: How about qemu ?11:24
persialool: No: using the images in KVM is actively dangerous.  That's why I want CDs.11:25
loolIt's not11:25
ograthey both draw massive ressources on my laptop ...11:25
persiaogra: I can't figure out how to do it, and otherwise running the install corrupts the install image.11:25
persialool: It's running one program.  Not an uncommon action.11:26
persiaEspecially if someone wants to try different applications in a development environment before committing to their hardware.11:26
loolIt's running what?11:26
persiaAs a long-time pocket computer user, I'll say that it takes a *lot* for me to want to change anything on my device, for fear of breaking something.11:26
persiaRunning the installer.11:27
loolSo if any corruption goes on, we should fix it11:27
* ogra watches the installer in vbox ...11:28
persiaOK.  That happens as a result of the grub-installer code to select the right boot disk for a given environment.  Except under virtualisation, hdb is the wrong selection.11:28
persiasoren has been having lots of trouble trying to determine when something is running under KVM for some X issues, and that's with the full Ubuntu environment.  Doing it in busybox is *even harder*.  Making changes to grub-installer that don't work in busybox is a bad idea.11:29
persiaOh, and it's even the wrong selection under virtualisation *except* when installing off a USB image.11:30
loolSorry, didn't get your comment on grub-installer11:30
loolWhat's the issue with it?11:30
ogralool, btw, there is a nice howto on the maemo wiki how to put your system on the internal flashcard intead of the internal rom, i use a 4G sdhc card on it now and its nearly twice as fast 11:30
persialool: Which part don't you understand?11:30
loologra: But you're using the special bootloader?11:30
ograyou have to11:30
ograbut 4G is a very good size :) 11:30
loologra: Didn't think it could make the OS faster, I thought it was the same type of hardware, just soldered on the mobo11:30
loolpersia: I don't understand what you refer to at all11:31
persialool: OK.  Do you understand the problem at all?11:31
ograsdhc has up to 10M transferrates, not sure what the internal one has ... thats actually a good task for the weekend, i'll run some hdparm and bonnie tests :)11:31
lool                        /* Allowed boot devices are:11:32
lool                         * a b     : floppy disk drives11:32
lool                         * c ... f : IDE disk drives11:32
loolPff manpage out of date11:32
persiaIndeed :/11:32
loolpersia: I'm afraid I don't even know which problem you're talking about11:32
loolSorry  :-/11:32
persialool: The problem is that when one runs the installer afte starting KVM with `kvm -hda ubuntu-mobile.img -hdb disk.img -m 512M` it boots into an environment where the primary hard drive is the USB image we provide (read-write), and the secondary hard drive is the virtual hard drive.11:33
persiaWhen the installer runs, the grub-installer component attempts to install grub on the default boot drive for the environment.11:34
persiaIn this environment, that happens to be our image.11:34
* ogra starts over11:34
loolpersia: grub-installer does that?11:34
loolthat's awfully broken  :-/11:34
ogra2G wasnt enough on the target device ... and i thought "grow dynamically" means something pfft11:34
persiaIt's *only* broken when running an install from a USB key when claiming it's a hard drive in a virtual environment.11:34
loolOh it does know how to exclude it when it's an USB key, just not when it appears as a hard disk?11:35
persiaFor real environments, yes.  In our special KVM environment no, because we told KVM is wasn't a USB drive.11:36
loolIt would be nice to emulate an USB drive, but I also think the exclusion could use more sensible data such as the uuid of the live system or something to exclude this device11:36
persiaReally, give usb-creator a try: I think you'll find it a better experience than dd for most users, and it solves the issues.11:36
loolIt doesn't solve the issue, it just makes us use something else11:37
persiaThat means updating a UUID list in grub-installer for *every* CD spin.  Since grub-installer is *never* used directly, but only as part of ubiquity or debian-installer, that way lies madness.11:37
persiaRight.  It makes it difficult to cause the problem, and we have time to maybe fix it in jaunty.11:38
persiaCurrently, it's trivial to cause the problem, which is bad.11:38
loolThe problem could also very well be avoided by booting on hdb with the image in it11:38
persiaIt's especially bad if we want to get more developers, as the number of people who can play with virtual environments is much larger than the number of people with devices that they are willing to sacrifice for development.11:38
persiaThat's true.  I just think it's easier to change how we build images than it is to fix KVM at this point.11:39
persiaI also think that usb-creator is significantly more user-friendly than dd, and we should recommend it's use.11:39
persiaLike I said before, in July, I'd agree with you.  In December, I'll agree with you.  Today, I want CD images.11:41
loolSorry but how can you make a point about easy of development to change the way which will only affect the released images?11:42
loolIt's not like developers can help us right now11:42
loolEverything is frozen11:42
persiaNo, but we can get more developers in November, and having released an image that is easy to use, hard to break, etc. is a good thing.11:43
loolThis image exists, it can be used from live envs11:43
persiaWe have *no* GUI to convert a USB image into a USB drive (yes, we have usb-imagewriter, but neither of the people who have dug at the code did so enough for intrepid release).11:43
persiaAnd we have the KVM issue.11:43
loolIt just can't be installed to a virtual disk easily because we lack proper detection or boot switches11:44
persiaAnd a live environment isn't suitable: a couple of apt-get update; apt-get upgrades breaks it.11:44
persia(this is true for any live environment: it has to do with the way casper sets up the environment, and the available space)11:44
* lool lunch &11:45
persiaHave fun.11:45
ograpersia, i will PPA it the next days11:46
ograso people dont struggel with dd at least11:47
ograjust on a sidenote, screenrefresh in vbox with vesa officially sucks11:48
persiaogra: Sure, but we have usb-creator in the archives.  As much as I can see arguments for usb images, and as much as I like usb-imagewriter, I don't think USB images are the right format for the intrepid release.11:48
persia(and that's not a virtualbox issue : I can replicate on real HW)11:48
ograpersia, ??11:49
persiascreen refresh being slow.11:49
ograyou mean no screen update until you move the pointer out of the vbox window ?11:49
ograits an issue with vbox and the mouse grabbing :)11:49
persiaheh.  no.  I can't replicate that.  I only find vesa slow.11:49
ograyeah, it always was11:49
ograi think usb images are fine11:50
ograits what users demand and hat their hardware supports11:50
ograyou cant force every netbook user to buy a usb cdrom11:50
ograor UMPC user11:51
ograor MID users to find out which adapter they need to make that work11:51
persiaI agree, but I actually like the usb-creator interface.  Give it a try.11:51
persia(and I don't know *any* MIDs, even ARM that don't either come with a USB cable, or have a standard USB port)11:52
persia(maybe mini, but still standard)11:52
ogranice UI or not, the mobile users simply dont have CDroms usually11:52
persiaYou miss my point.11:52
ograso there is no point to make CD our target format11:52
persiausb-creator puts the contents of an ISO onto a USB drive such that the result boots.11:53
ograbut still11:53
persiaThis means people don't need to use dd.11:53
ograthat forces the user to manual steps11:53
persiaExplaining how to use dd correctly has been one of the biggest support issues we've had.11:53
ograusb-imagewriter should solve that 11:54
persiaIt replaces running dd with running a program.  It doesn't change the number of steps involved.11:54
persiaYes, but usb-imagewriter isn't part of the release.11:54
persiaMuch like fixing KVM to boot off USB solves the corruption problem, I simply don't care for intrepid.11:54
ograright, and we wont change anything for intrepid at that point anyway11:54
persiaAnd yes, I don't think CD images are the right long-term solution, but they solve *two* outstanding issues for intrepid.11:55
ograbring it up at UDS11:55
persiaI won't want CD images at UDS.  I only want them now.11:55
ograbut now is to late in the cycle11:55
ograwe only have a month left 11:55
persiaWhat?  To change 20 lines of code in the image scripts?11:55
ograchanging the whole infrastructure, making sure it works etc 11:56
persiaThis isn't hard.11:56
ograbut risky11:56
persiaI don't want to change the whole infrastructure: just the image build script to make CDs.11:56
ograeven adding mobile at the point it was added was already to risky11:56
persiaNot very risky.11:56
persiaAnd it solves *two* outstanding issues.  There are benefits.11:56
persiaAnd it *doesn't* affect anything except -mid and -mobile.  *every* other way to solve the problems affects other flavours.11:57
* ogra still disabrees11:57
persiaWhy.  What is the benefit of USB images?11:57
ograpeople using umpc or netbooks expect them11:58
persia(and no, that people have USB ports doesn't count, because we aren't shipping USB drives)11:58
ograand apprently the bigger amount gets it right ...11:58
ograthe uneducated ones wil see an iso and not know what to do 11:58
persiaWho ships USB images for mobile distros?11:58
persiausb-creator solves that.11:59
ograyou wont change my mind :) 11:59
persiaOK.  Please ask again when you'd like to debate on merits.11:59
* persia would *like* to have a changed mind, but doesn't want a lousy experience for users12:00
ograusb-imagewriter is fine and would be in the archive, hell i would even have a windows version ready if not everyone had told me i shouldnt use dd in the backend12:00
persiaSure, and usb-imagewriter is the *better* solution.  It's still not in intrepid.12:01
ograit will be in a PPA 12:01
ograand i plan to make it usable in windows12:01
ograbut facing all the resistance when i first uploaded it made me drop work on it for now12:02
persiaYes, but that's not a useful place for it: usb-creator is installed *by default* for -desktop, and could be installed *by default* for the live images, if we wanted.12:02
persia(personally, I think we don't want it on our images, but having it on desktop makes for a simple support case)12:02
persiaI'd much rather have usb-imagewriter, but we don't.12:02
persiaSimilarly, I'd much rather have KVM boot off virtual USB drives, but it doesn't.12:03
ograright, that gets us the benefit that we get users with real HW to test for us ;)12:03
persiaAnd to me, it's not worth recommending people install PPA stuff, when I spend time trying to convince people *not* to do that most of the time.12:03
* ogra reboots his vbox install12:04
persiaHow does *limiting* the options get us more users?12:04
ogravbox works fine btw12:05
persiaWell, assuming one sets the correct arguments.  How does one do that exactly?12:06
persiaIs it trivial?12:06
* persia hopes for "Yes".12:06
loolpersia: So I thought about this over lunch12:06
persialool: And?12:06
loolpersia: You came up with more and more arguments over the discussion, but I'm still unhappy to change something at beta time12:06
lools/something/image type12:07
persialool: So am I, I just think this is the least invasive possible change to solve 1) KVM use, and 2) GUI for USB drive preparation.12:07
ograyou have to use the .vdi as secondary master, target needs to be primary master and hit f12 on first boot to select the secodnrary master as boot device12:07
persiaogra: That's not so bad.12:08
ogralool, ++12:08
* persia looks into KVM bios options12:08
ograpersia, well, and indeed you need to convert before using vditool 12:08
loolI think it would have been possible to discuss changing image types some two weeks ago12:08
loolEven in some freezes12:08
loolWith some well articulated cases12:09
ograas i said, i even found the mobile addition to be at a problematic point already12:09
loolBut the discussion started from a single bug12:09
ograwhich we should rather fix :)12:09
persialool: Yes, but I don't know any less invasive way to solve that bug, and it's *not* hard to change the image type.12:09
loolIt did evolve in interesting arguments in favor of ISO images, and I'm quite convinced of our need of ISOs for jaunty12:09
ograthan working around by changing the whole infrastructure12:09
persialool: Now I'm confused.  I don't want ISOs for Jaunty.  Why do you?12:10
* persia would like to see the root causes of the bugs addressed.12:10
* ogra wants usb-imagewriter ... including a windows binary12:10
ograand usb images12:10
loolpersia: It wouldn't be hard to build MIC images again   ;-)12:10
ograhey, now thats a good idea !12:10
loologra: Argh you unveiled my killer argument12:10
persialool: Yes it would.  I'm fairly sure you'd have great difficulty resurrecting rmic.12:11
loolDepends whether you include convincing StevenK or only consider the technical changes12:11
persialool: Your killer argument was the ability to create images from Windows?12:11
persiaI include convincing not only StevenK but infinity.12:11
loolYeah, I think the argument of having a windows solution is a serious one12:12
persiaI prefer usb-imagewriter in Windows to having CD images just because of Windows.12:12
persiaI think usb-imagewriter in Windows is something we can see by December.12:12
loolThere's already an USB image writing tool for windows12:12
loolAnd Linux12:12
loolAnd it doesn't take USB .imgs as input, only .isos12:12
ograth eredhat tool ? 12:12
loolThe Fedora one yeah12:12
loolI don't even understand why we wrote our own usb-craetor12:13
ograthats usb-imagewriter on steroids12:13
loologra: It takes an iso as input and creates an usb bootable image with syslinux12:13
ograits is a wrapper around an unlicensed version of DD for windows12:13
ogranot sure we want that12:13
ograoh, and unmaintained12:14
ogra(the dd for win)12:14
persiaogra: Which tool are you deprecating so effectively?12:14
ograliveusb-creator or some such12:14
ograthe redhat tool for creating images12:14
loologra: I didn't look at the implementation, but there is a place where I can point people at for windows binaries which allow taking an iso and writing an usb key; no usb cdrom drive, no ubuntu install required12:14
* ogra did look and really dislikes it massively12:14
persiaRight.  I already don't like that tool, and I'd never heard of it before.12:15
persiaSo, can anyone tell me the risks they see in switching to CD images for intrepid.  Like I said, I'm very prepared to change my mind, as long as the reason is more than "it might be hard".12:16
loologra: Well I'm happy to consider replacing it by something better if it really is broken, but it's working for people under windows right now12:16
ogralool, right, i can make usb-imagewriter easily do the same in the same weird way12:16
persiaogra: But not for intrepid.12:17
ograi'm working here because we usually provide *proper* solutions over the hackish ones12:17
ograliveusb-creator is a gross hack12:17
loolpersia: There's a balance between providing USB and ISO images, this balance is in my mind slightly in favor of ISO images as we speak for various reasons we discussed here, but the difference is not so huge that I'd consider changing the image type at this point of the cycle12:17
persiaBother.  My arguments have had entirely the opposite effect of that intended.12:18
ograwe should have had this discussion at uds12:18
loologra: +112:18
ograbut now that we have everything running in the infrastructure it doesnt really seem sane to switch back to an experimental state12:18
persiaI don't mind that the install from KVM doesn't work.  I don't mind that one has to do odd things to make vbox work.  I don't even mind that one has to use dd from the command line.12:19
ograyou always had to do odd things for vbox12:19
persiaI'm *extremely* concerned that testing an install in a virtual environment without special adjustments can *corrupt* the install image.12:19
ogramore so in hardy even12:19
persiaTo me, that's a very visible and significant issue.12:19
loolpersia: Well we can convince people to protect the image then12:19
loolAs in using chattr or something to protect the file, or perhaps a -ro flag if there's one12:20
persialool: I tried that.  Setting mode 444 doesn't prevent it from being corrupted,12:20
loolchattr will :)12:20
* persia tries12:20
loolYou want +i12:20
persialool: `chattr +i` ?12:21
persiaRight.  Testing now.12:21
loolEven root gets permission denied in writing to such files12:21
persiaSO, I've run `chattr +i toy.img`, and now I'm going to corrupt it.12:21
persiaThe good news is that I get Permission Denied when I mount it.  Let's see what happens in the virtual environment.12:23
loolI hope kvm block devices don't do nasty things in the kernel12:24
persiaI kinda expect them too, as part of the general accelleration.12:24
loolBut since this is ultimately backed by an ext3 or something, it shouldn't be possible12:24
persiaRight.  Just want to verify that.  Telling people to chattr +i when using in a virtual environment is something acceptable to me.  Not very clean, but at least acceptable.12:25
persiaOh, cool.  Fails to boot.12:25
persiaSo, yeah, that doesn't work.  Any other suggestions?12:25
persiaWait, it's just extremely slow...12:26
persiaNo, it really fails to boot.  " * Loading hardware drivers...   [fail] "12:27
persiaFollowed by I/O errors.12:27
persiaOr no, maybe it is booting, just *really slowly.12:27
persiaHi crevette12:27
crevettefor anyone working on having bluez 4.xx for intrepid: can you test gnome-user-share 0.40 on my ppa12:28
crevettesalut persia 12:28
crevetteit bring some neat feature I worked on upstream12:28
crevetteand native bluez 4.xx support12:28
persiacrevette: How does it differ from the version in ~bluetooth/+archive ?12:28
crevetteie not patched12:28
crevetteI did a changelog12:28
persiacrevette: (and Ideally we don't want to add new features at this point in the cycle)12:28
crevetteah okay12:29
persiaI also want 4.X because 3.X appears to be fairly firmly broken, but 4.X + new features is maybe a bit much for the release managers to swallow.12:29
* ogra promised mario to test after beta12:29
ogrado we have other packages as well that would be worth testing (i.e. are likely to get in)12:30
persiaogra: If you have time to test before beta, that would help too.  Ideally, the suite can drop in on Friday.12:30
persiaEverything proposed for update for BlueZ 4.x should be in the ~bluetooth PPA.12:31
ograpersia, well, i'm trying to shake out the last bits in -mobile atm and i think its time for another blog post and some notification at umpcportal12:31
persiaogra: I agree : it's "If you have time" :)12:31
ograadditionally i promised njpatel to get the fixes for netbook-launcher in, if i still find extra time today i'll jump on bluez12:32
persiaEspecially because I wasn't able to get -mobile into the beta test list (it will be on the iso tracker immediately post-beta)12:32
ograi dont care about beta for it, but i want to keep the enthusiasm high 12:32
ograso blogging is my first duty ;) 12:32
ogra(but first i need to make a test instal of tonights img to see all changes got in)12:33
ograwow, the rsync took 3min only :)12:33
loolpersia: So what happens with the chattred .img?  :)12:34
loolI don't quite see what could cause slowness12:35
* StevenK grumbles. Don't speak about rmic to me12:35
persialool: Install is 66% complete.  grub-installer runs *last*12:35
loolOh so it does boot12:35
persialool: The slowness is because I'm getting I/O errors trying to access HDA12:35
persiaAlso, the failure to load hardware drivers bothers me: it's certainly suboptimal.12:36
persiaogra: Please take a look at the casper-bottom scripts.  Ideally the screensaver should be disabled in the install, so that it doesn't generate a blank screen.12:41
persiaI think I saw a stub there for -desktop, and I wonder why it doesn't seem to fix -mobile.12:41
ograi addeed that code, i'll look12:41
ograbut i doubt its the screensaver you see12:42
persiaheh :)  Excellent.  Anyway, I just had a screen blanking event: perhaps it was just some other powersave thing hitting me.12:42
StevenKogra: Please tag and push your changes for -mid-default-settings 12:42
ograits more likely gpm12:42
ograStevenK, i cant push ?12:44
StevenKYou can't?12:45
StevenKogra: Why can't you?12:46
ograUpdate this branch:   You cannot upload to this branch. Members of Ubuntu Mobile Team  can upload to this branch. 12:47
ograi'm definately logged in12:47
StevenKdavidm: ogra isn't a member of the ubuntu-mobile team. Could you correct that? :-)12:48
davidmI can12:49
persialool: "Executing 'grub-install (hd0)' failed.  This is a fatal error. "  No image corruption.12:49
ograthere isnt even an apply button12:49
loologra: Too many random candidacies12:50
loolStevenK: around?12:53
loolStevenK: Could you poke https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2823 ?12:54
ubottubugs.maemo.org bug 2823 in SDK "Modest includes untranslated "ecdg_ti_caption_separator"" [Normal,Unconfirmed] 12:54
ograoooh, the ubiquity fix for auto-login is in ?? wow12:54
StevenKlool: What about it?12:55
loolStevenK: Upstream is asking for info12:55
loolStevenK: "is Modest using the string itself, or is it a widget from libhildon? Could you12:56
loolshow a code snipset?"12:56
ograStevenK, pushed12:56
persiaTeam meeting in 3 minutes in #ubuntu-meeting12:57
StevenKIt's libhildon itself, I think.12:57
StevenKI'd have to dig12:57
davidmStevenK, joining meeting?13:00
LjLis there a VM (VMWare preferred, but i guess i can convert) image of Ubuntu Mobile available - not MID, at least as i understand from the FAQ?13:07
ograi just tried it on vbox, will post instructions after the meeting (currently ubuntu-mobile meeting is held in #ubuntu-meeting, feel free to join)13:08
persiaLjL: There isn't.  The ubuntu-mobile.img file should boot in any environment, although you may need to convert it to a native format for VMWare.13:08
LjLoh, i guess i joined here at the wrong time to ask questions then ;) yeah, i'll join, thanks13:08
persiaAlternately, you can dd it to a USB drive, and boot off that, if VMWare supports that.13:08
LjLpersia: if it's not an *installation* image, but a *runtime* image, then i guess it's fine with me13:09
persiaLjL: It's *both*13:09
ograits a live system13:09
ograwith install option :)13:09
LjLhm, but i guess no direct write support, just like an Ubuntu CD?13:09
ograyou could even boot your laptop or desktop from it right away ;)13:09
LjLwell, i guess it's a start anyway13:10
ograwe use the same tools to create it ... 13:10
LjLit's mostly for having my parents try out a "netbook" environment before they buy one13:10
ograit should be perferc to try out, though its focused on touchscreens, so the UI will look a bit clunky (thumb sized ui elements etc)13:12
persiaLjL: There's nothing for purchase based on that environment: it may be different, unless you're planning to reinstall.13:12
persiaogra: It looks/works great for clamshells with touchpads.13:12
LjLpersia, well, reinstalling is most definitely an option, unless it turns out that the default OS of the netbook we buy is fine with us13:12
LjLin any case, i'm familiar with ubuntu so i'd rather play with an ubuntu based system for a start13:13
ograwell, lets put it this way: it wouldnt be my peronal taste on a netbook13:13
persiaogra: Fine.  I like it.13:13
persiaLjL: Ubuntu Mobile is just a slightly different package selection and some theme changes: it ought be a safe base for any adjustments you want to make.13:13
LjLhow does it compare (as in substantial differences, not as in "which is better") with other netbook/"eee" distributions of ubuntu of which there seems to be a proliferation, if i may ask?13:15
persiaLjL: It's the "official" one :)  Whether it's the best is harder to say (I've not used the others).13:15
persiaMore than anything, it's close to the Ubuntu Desktop.13:15
LjLso probably fewer adjustments than most of the others, but just what really needs to be changed for a small device, and possibly more geared towards devices providing a touchscreen?13:16
LjLby the way, i'm around for many hours to come, you don't all need to reply immediately to stuff i say since you're in the middle of a meeting ;)13:17
ograwe love multitasking :)13:19
ograbut great to hear you will stay :)13:19
LjLdo i get ubuntu-mobile.img (as opposed to ubuntu-mid.img, i suppose) from ogra's pages - which appears to be the only place i can find it?13:21
ograi am about to blog about the new location ... (after the meeting :) )13:21
LjLah. you might want to tweak https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile about it13:22
LjLthe FAQ point to that page and to the MID page, but then both link to the MID download13:22
ograthanks !, i forgot about that 13:23
=== njpatel is now known as njpatel_lunch
persiaogra: It's actually *trivial* to preseed extra stuff into sources.list, but it's *bad* and *wrong*, as we discovered for hardy.13:59
persiaThe reasons not to do it are legion,  On the other hand, having instructions on the wiki is merely not ideal, but at least works.13:59
ograyou cant preseed it, it would break on network connected installs as it would try to pull from there 13:59
ograPPAs are not signed13:59
ograso you get probs here 14:00
ograit would have to happen after install with a displayed note 14:00
loologra: Signing ppas doesn't solve much unfortunately14:00
loologra: But they might get signed /any time/ soon :)14:01
* ogra lives next to the birthplace of brothers grimm ... 14:01
* ogra knows about fairy tales14:01
persiaogra: There are also ways around unsigned repos (and no, I'm not going to share), but the problem is inherently that it's not Ubuntu anymore.14:03
ograi would leave it unsigned, but have a sources.list entry ...14:03
ograu-m or g-a-i will show a proper warning with that 14:03
ograit just saves the user one step14:04
ograbut i think its impossible to set up properly without a lot gross hackery14:04
ograwas just a brainfart ...14:05
persiaWell, it's possible, but not pleasant.  Better to add a wiki page if anyone ports psb to X 1.5.14:05
persiaLet's hope for upstream support for Jaunty.14:05
ograwell, worst case that would be intel14:05
ograso we could provide a backported package in PPA at least14:05
persiaWell, no, that's not the worst case.  The worst case is if I try to do it.14:06
ogradoit :)14:06
persiaNo, that's the worst case.  I'd be surprised if the result even worked for me, except in my febrile imagination.14:06
ograi'd do it if i had real HW for it 14:07
ograthough probably steve sends me the device he talked about14:07
persiaThe best case is if it goes upstream, and someone who actually knows X and drm provides a PPA for it.  It can't be backported without *immense* effort, and will likely break other things.14:07
persiaYeah.  The SC has psb.  Nice little lappy, that one.14:08
* ogra saw a video14:08
ograthough its still way bigger than my n800 with freedom kbd 14:08
persiaIt definitely has the smallest 7" sceeen I've seen: it feels more like 6, until you compare it with other devices.  Almost 0 border plastic.14:09
persiaThe keyboard is a little cramped though, and it's designed for desktop typing, so that's the worst of both worlds.14:09
ograhey, the Q1 sees the freedom kbd 14:10
ograbut tries to open nautilus for it ???14:10
* ogra shakes head14:10
ograour bluez implementation *really* sucks14:10
persiaBlueZ 3.x in intrepid doesn't support keyboards.  Even if you can pair, you can't type.  Even if you try to do it manually, rather than using bluez-gnome.14:12
ograasac, so could we just do a build1 upload of midbrowser ? that would get me working images today14:12
ogra(i'm fine to do that)14:12
persiaThis is even true with crevette's updated bluez-gnome 0.28.14:12
asacogra: you can git export from the git tree and upload that14:12
asacogra: you could also just bump the version14:13
ograasac, the latter was my plan14:13
ograoh, you mean wihout buildX suffix14:13
asacogra: there is -3 in git14:13
asacogra: -2 what is in archive14:14
asacapparently -3 wasnt uploaded14:14
ograurl ? 14:14
LjLogra: the image booted fine in vbox, after converting with vditool dd (extremely slow, but i guess that's vbox's fault)14:15
ograthe video driver is vesa by default, it sucks14:16
asacogra: you think you can do that? :)14:16
ograbut to see once it it works14:16
asacogra: its just exporting the intrepid branch from  http://git.moblin.org/repos/?p=projects/mobile-browser.git14:16
rhp_Guys: after killing X, what is the way to start X again? /etc/init.d/gdm start gave me error message. Should I use startx instead?14:16
LjLogra: no but i'm talking about boot time14:16
ograasac, no idea, cant tell if i dont try i guess ... my only fear is that my name sticks in the changelog then :P14:16
asacogra: no thats all done14:17
asacogra: you just need to sponsor for me14:17
asaci am in the -3 changelog14:17
asacits "officially" released14:17
asacjust noone came around to upload14:17
asac2008-09-11 Alexander Sack * RELEASE 0.3.0release-3 to ubuntu/intrepid  intrepid14:17
asacthats the changelog upload14:17
asacso debuild -S -kogra@ubunt14:17
asacand go14:17
ograok, i'll try my git foo14:17
ograpftt debuild ...14:17
* ogra is dpkg-buildpackage user :)14:18
ograall this newish stuff ...14:18
asacogra: yeah i used that for brevity ;)14:18
asacogra: do you still need the hildon menu/integration?14:21
ogra-mid needs it i guess14:22
ograin -mobile its rather not so great14:22
persiarhp_: If you've gdm, you want to stop before you start.  If you're using MID, you want sudo session stop; sudo session start14:29
persiaLjL: The image boot is fairly slow, in part because it's a live image.  Once installed, it's faster.  If you're installing with vbox, you'd need to have the image be the secondary disk, and the target be the primary disk.14:30
ograpersia, the use is also massively slow due to vesa14:31
ograinstalled or not doesnt matter 14:31
persiaWell, yeah, that too, but boot *especially* so.14:31
* ogra didnt find the boot particulary slow though14:32
persiaOh.  I find *all* the live image boots frustratingly slow, regardless of environment.  It's all the setup: takes well over a minute for me.14:33
LjLi also can't get the browser to start apparently14:34
ogramy vbox is up in about 40sec14:34
ograLjL, yup, we just discussed that above14:34
ograit needs a fresh upload14:34
ograi'll try to get to it today14:34
persiaogra: Your *virtual* is up in 40 seconds!  It takes longer than that for me with real hardware.14:35
ograit takes longer on the Q1 for me as well14:35
ograaround a minute14:36
persiaMaybe just something with prefetching the image into memory.14:36
ograi guess its an issue with the usb key speed14:37
persiaCould be that as well, and then it boots faster off a hard drive.14:37
ian_brasiljust tried ubuntu-mobile on an asus eeepc 900 ..it flies..i opened gimp open office and midbrowser all at the same time no problem14:47
ian_brasila few comments..how do you set a proxy on midbrowser..if it is using the system proxy settings that is not the most obvious IMO14:48
persiaian_brasil: MIDbrowser is working for you!  Are you using ogra's image, or a daily?14:49
ian_brasilI downloaded the latest image last night from ogra14:49
ian_brasilwifi seems not to be working too14:50
ian_brasili think it is missing a module14:50
ograian_brasil, thats not the latest :)14:50
ograthats the latest14:50
ograthe one on people.u.c is abotu a week old14:51
ograbut beware, the browser is broken14:51
ian_brasilogra: strange, the browser seems ok14:51
persiaWiFi shouldn't be missing a module, although you might need to add it manually (there should be an option to add drivers under System/Administration somewhere)14:52
ogradid you get it from cdimage ? 14:52
persiaSetting the proxy should be system/preferences/network proxy (or soemthing like that)14:52
* ogra fixes the download link on people.u.c14:53
* ian_brasil looks for the download link14:55
persiaBy "fix" do you mean "point at the dailies" ?14:55
persiaian_brasil: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mid/intrepid/current/14:55
=== persia changed the topic of #ubuntu-mobile to: Ubuntu Mobile | FAQ: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/FAQ | Mobile Images: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mobile/intrepid/current | MID Images: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mid/intrepid/current/
ograpersia, right14:57
persiaian_brasil: Sorry.  Typo.14:57
ograthere are various improvements since the first image14:57
=== davmor2 is now known as davmor_biab
ian_brasilexcellent...but the image I downloaded is really good..i am very impressed14:59
ian_brasilogra: the browser is broken on the new images15:01
ograneeds a rebuild15:03
ogragreat that i managed to impress you  :) 15:03
* ogra wonders what people will say in jaunty if all the little annoyances are worked out :)15:03
ograheh, my answer to marios bluetooth mail did its duty :)15:06
* ogra is impressed that shocking people often works best to draw attention to a topic :)15:07
persiaIndeed.  I'm surprised the current state lasted so long.15:08
loolpersia: Bah, bochs doesn't allow anything else than "first hard disk" in the CMOS settings15:11
ograbochs ? 15:11
ograyou could try dosbox as well :P15:12
loolwah the !! is quite confusing: if (!!(inb_cmos(0x2d) & 0x20) ^ (seq_nr == 1))15:12
persialool: Yeah,  Hence the release note.15:14
=== njpatel_lunch is now known as njpatel
* lool is installing in kvm with the hope to not corrupt this time around15:35
persialool: What did you do that you expect will solve it?15:37
loolAh no space left on device15:40
persiaPity.  I'd love to have something useful to tell KVM users other than "don't click Install".15:40
=== davmor_biab is now known as davmor2
loolStill properly selects the good hard disk15:43
persiaWhat? Which is the good disk?15:44
loolThe first one15:48
loolI have the qemu/kvm target hard disk as hda, am booting the .img as hdb15:48
loolinstall proceeds on hda15:48
loolI hope grub gets installed on hdb15:48
persiaHrm?  grub should always get installed on hda.15:49
loolThat's good15:49
persiaHow did you boot it like that?15:49
loolBut I booted on hdb, so I hope grub-installer doesn't opt for that15:49
persiaIt's not supposed to.  If it does, I'll want your syslog.15:50
persiaHow did you convince kvm to boot off hdb?15:50
loolI'll tell you if it works15:51
loolActually I didn't :-)15:51
loolBut I did tell you15:51
loolBah downloading langpacks is sooo long15:52
* lool needs fiber as fast as persia's web access15:52
* persia needs enough hours in the day to be able to have enough attention to remember things lool says so they don't need to be repeated.15:52
persiaAnd if you want fast fibre, all you have to do is move to Korea or Japan.15:53
loolpersia: Does it happen to you with mobile that the screensaver turns the screen black and it wakes up for no apparent reason?15:54
loolHappens on my Q115:54
ian_brasilwe have a lot of fibre here but unfortunately not the optical kind15:54
persiaHappens for me with intrepid desktop15:54
loolian_brasil: You should do IP over cow15:55
loolWhat happens if I "ignore" the langpack install?  Will it fail the install?15:55
loolI really need a transparent web proxy15:55
* ian_brasil was pleased with the 1.5 day ubuntu-mobile download15:55
persiaNo, it just doesn't install the langpacks.  You can skip that step.15:56
loolian_brasil: I hope you'll rsync the next one15:56
persia1.5 *days*!  Oh my.15:56
ian_brasilpleased that there was no power outage during that time15:56
loolIt took me almost a day to download an USB key image from another Canonical team as well15:56
lool"Running update-grub"15:57
persiaHrm.  I get annoyed when it takes more than 20 minutes.15:57
ian_brasilpersia: everythin here is measured in days15:57
looldownloading some stuff *sigh*15:57
persiaian_brasil: Probably gives you a better pace of life, actually.  Here, I can barely have a drink during the download, whereas you get to do such exotic things as sleep :)15:58
ian_brasiland it makes it like christmas when (if) it finished..i have been showing off the image to everyone..with very postive responses i might add16:00
loolCool, no image corruption16:03
ogra-maemoproper typing on the n80016:05
loolpersia: So I used isolinux16:06
loolThat allows booting of second hard disk16:06
persiaInteresting.  Does that break the image for normal use cases?16:06
persiaCan it be scripted: users could generate the target image for KVM based on the distributed image.16:07
loolpersia: I don't understand either of the questions, give me 30 seconds to publish the script to create the iso16:07
persiaThat answers the second question, and I can read the script to answer the first :)16:09
loolpersia: So, I'm pushing to mobile-scripts16:11
loolpersia: I use it with -cdrom16:11
loolcdrom has lower precedence than -hda16:11
loolso if you have kvm -m 512 -cdrom ~/generic-iso/isolinux.iso -hda hda.img -hdb ubuntu-mobile.img16:11
loolIt will boot on isolinux because hda fails16:11
lool(if hda is a qemu-img blank image)16:11
loolisolinux will offer to boot from either the first hard disk or the second16:12
lool(I need help on this part, but let's discuss later)16:12
persiaAnd then isolinux reboots with hdb, and life is good.  That makes the writing of the notes easy.  Thanks.16:12
loolthen isolinux chainsload hdb16:12
loolwhen you're done installing and reuse the same command line, hda works16:12
loolI checked and neither hdb nor the .iso are corrupted16:12
loolNow the part I need help with16:13
loolWe don't actually care about allowing to boot from the first hard disk16:13
lool(from syslinux)16:13
loolShould I change the script to only allow booting from second hard disk and do that immediately without prompting?16:13
loolI find the current script and resulting iso for universally useful, but perhaps we should really create a "boot from second hard disk".iso16:14
persiaI prefer some flexibility: there may be users who want to test in more complex virtual environments.16:19
loolObviously this could be extended for more hard disks, but I didn't try it out16:19
loolpersia: So what do you think of this workaround?  Did you start writing some release notes?16:19
persiaI think it's a *great* workaround.  I haven't started writing any notes.  I'll be adding this when I do write some.16:23
loolOh sorry, I broke the script when I added it to mobile-scripts16:23
ogra-maemoyou should put it on the wiki as well, for people not wanting to use bzr16:24
loologra-maemo: I think it's best to publish the iso16:26
ogra-maemooh, k16:26
looladventurous people can use the script16:26
ogra-maemoi thought you wanted to give the scriupt to people16:26
loolNo, the iso16:27
persiaThe ISO lets people do the right thing.  I'll definitely download and test, but not soon, as it's getting quite late.16:27
loolI mean people are welcome to use the script to build a more complete iso, but to solve the problem of installing in kvm, the iso is enough16:28
* ogra-maemo wonders if that works as well in vbox16:28
ogra-maemoi assume it should though16:29
ogra-maemohey, that kbd is fun 16:29
ogra-maemo(apart from the missing alt key)16:30
persiaogra: Please test.  If we can use the same procedure for both vbox and KVM, it makes it an easier message to send.16:33
ogra-maemoi will16:33
loolIt most probably does16:35
loologra-maemo: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mobile-meta/+bug/274838 can be closed I guess16:37
ubottuLaunchpad bug 274838 in mobile-meta "ubuntu-mobile images need to be built on cdimage.ubuntu.com machines" [High,Triaged] 16:38
persiaIndeed it can.  Please close it.16:39
loolamitk_: I'm fix releasing #264048 for linux-lpia; I added a linux task and fix committed it; can you close in debian/changelog?16:40
persiabug #26404816:40
ubottuLaunchpad bug 264048 in linux "aufs hangs on rename() in MID live images" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26404816:40
persiaOh, right.16:41
ian_brasilusing the usb key i shut down and at the prompt i hit enter ...the screen goes black but the machine remains on and i have to shut down by pressing the button...shall i file a bug?16:41
amitk_lool: I thought I already added it to debian/changelog16:44
ogra-maemolool, indeed16:44
loolamitk_: doesn't appear in the linux-lpia page16:44
ogra-maemoian_brasil, that ¨feature¨ was disabled in the official image16:46
ogra-maemoif zou see it there as well, yes, file it16:46
amitk_lool: aaah. I added it to the linux changelog16:47
loolamitk_: That's fine now16:47
loolIt will close the new task16:47
persiaian_brasil: That's a bug.  Please include as much information about the hardware as possible, as it is likely caused by a failure to perform a clean ACPI powerdown.16:49
ian_brasilpersia;ok, will do16:49
persiaAnd, yes, we turned off the "Press Enter to continue" prompt, but that shoudn't affect whether the machine shuts down.16:50
=== asac_ is now known as asac
ian_brasilpersia: what command can i execute on the eeepc to get this info?16:55
loolpersia: I sent instructions to the list; feel free to copy-paste or reword for the release notes16:56
* persia looks rapidly about for someone who knows more about ACPI16:56
persialool: Thank you.16:56
loolian_brasil: Try updating your BIOS?16:57
loolpersia: Oh another thing I'm taking help on is the ONERROR thing in syslinux; I don't know why, but it's not working when the BIOS fails to boot the first disk17:06
loolI'd love the iso to try disk 1 and automatically skip to disk 2, but that doesn't work17:06
loolI don't know whether control returns to isolinux when 0x80 fails17:07
=== njpatel is now known as njpatel_away
persialool: From my reading of the documentation, ONERROR only allows appending to the kernel command line, rather than changing it.17:12
persiaOr rather, prepending.17:13
loolpersia: I think the issue is triggerred only when the files aren't found17:14
loolI tried finding an alternate fallback mechanism, but didn't see one17:14
loolIf you do...17:14
persiaI'll add looking to my list, but suspect it will be at least a couple days before I get very far.17:15
loolJust nice to have17:17
persiaYeah, but what you've already done is a *big* step towards reducing my concerns about the current images.  Thanks for that.17:17
loolHappy that it did17:22
ograwoah, that midbrowser cloning takes a century17:36
* ogra wonders who said bzr was slow17:37
persiaogra: It's a comparison thing.  For me, bzr is slower than http, so I call it slow.  That doesn't mean it's slower than other tools.17:39
ograits running since 30min now17:40
ograstill recieving stuff17:40
loologra: You're going to have some hundreds of MBs on your disk17:44
loolThat's MB, not MiB  :)17:44
ograi hope my diskspace is enough for that 17:45
ogra my /home is wuite full17:45
loologra: I think you saw http://people.ubuntu.com/~lool/popup-no-win-decorations.png already17:46
loolAs an illustration of the need for win decorations17:46
loologra: I think it's like 500 or 600 MB17:47
loolPerhaps once built17:47
ograwell, if compiz is enabled you have a pretty shadow around it17:47
ograits only relevant in metacity17:47
loolIt's not17:47
ograyeah, kvm = no compisite17:48
ograso the image uses metacity17:48
loolYeah, and popups are really awful like this17:48
ograwith compiz you have a roper drop shadow 17:48
loolI'm not sure it's enough17:48
ogratry it on the Q117:48
loolI have it installed with mobile17:49
persiaogra: Is there a way to hint it to look OK also in metacity?17:49
ograif i have any kind of window frames (which i dont atm) i need to develop a theme as well, the current themes are not finger friendly17:49
* persia turns off compiz as the first step on any install17:49
ograpersia, not an easy one17:49
ograbut i will look into it17:50
* lool has headache and goes taking a shower &17:50
ogra-maemosigh, still cloning18:05
ogra-maemobad git18:05
ian_brasiltrying to work out how the eepc/asus get to boot so quickly..i think it boots straight to hibernate..is this possible as it sounds crazy18:06
persiaIt is possible to ship a device in a hibernated state, and label hibernate "shutdown".  No idea if that was what was done, but it certainly would increase percieved boot speed.18:07
ogra-maemoian_brasil, you mean in the tyoutube video ?18:09
ogra-maemoi.e. the five second boot thing ?18:10
ian_brasili didnt know about the you tube video but i think shipping in hibernate is what has been done18:13
ian_brasiland it definitely has a wow factor so are there any downsides is the next issue18:14
ogra-maemowell, for that video they patched out 60%T of the kernel source and made the kernel monoilithic18:15
ogra-maemoits cheating as much as you even can18:15
ian_brasilwould data loss be possible with a boot to hibernate?..i imagine if you changed the booting kernel it would but dont think your soccer mum will de doing that18:17
loolThat gets rejected, you can't resume from it18:17
ian_brasillool: cant you just resume from the hibernate file..maybe i didnt understand something here18:22
ogra-maemoyou would have to make sure it actually reboots after a kernel replacement18:23
ian_brasilor it uses uswsusp which quickly restors from RAM if possible, but if the battery fails the machine can  be restored from disk file18:30
loolI wonder why I don't have uswsusp anymore18:31
ogralucky you18:32
ograit breaks the world18:32
ograits supposed to be removed from the archive completely right after beta18:32
ogra-maemocurrently it breaks gpm18:44
ogra-maemonot sure if you tried to suspend your Q1 yet18:44
ian_brasilthe eepc must be doing this..there is a partition unaccessible from mount which seems to mirror the main from power shutdown to a complete desktop is 15 secondse18:49
* ogra is lost with midbrowser 18:51
ograhow the heck do i build it 18:51
ograthere is no debian dir18:51
ograasac, ^^^ ?19:02
ograis just copying the debian dir from the package into the tree enough ? 19:03
ogra(since its native)19:03
loologra: use the intrepid branch19:03
ograoh, sigh19:04
ograi indeed checked out the wrong thing19:04
loologra: It's ok19:06
loolYou have it all19:06
loolJust checkout -b :)19:06
ograoh mn, git is such a pain19:07
loologra: git checkout -b intrepid origin/intrepid19:07
loolNot sure about the exact name19:07
ograargh, how do i somethign lije bzr revert *19:08
loolgit reset --hard HEAD19:08
asacogra: intrepid branch19:08
ografatal: A branch named 'intrepid' already exists.19:11
ograbut it created a debian dir19:11
asacogra: if its exists you need to say19:11
asacgit checkout intrepid19:11
loolgit checkout intrepid19:11
* lool hugs asac19:11
ograAlready on "intrepid"19:12
asacalso you probably dont want to build that directoy, but use git export ... something19:12
ograsilly git19:12
loolIf you debuild -i -I it should be fine19:12
asacyeah use that19:12
asacgit export appears to not exist ;)19:12
ograwhat a silly silly tool19:13
asaceveryone else says the same about bzr ;)19:13
asaclike gnash people that fight with branch formats ;)19:13
ograpfft 19:13
asacwhich is actually the truth. bzr _must_ settle on a branch/repo format ... cant be true that you cannot use your tree with a bzr that is 1.5 years old :)19:14
ogramumble ... needs xulrunner-1.9-dev installed 19:16
* ogra installs19:16
* lool suggests pdebuild --debbuildopts -I to ogra19:16
ograneeds /usr/share/mozilla-devscripts/lp-locale-export.mk19:17
* ogra digs19:17
ograyay, that looks better19:18
ograE: midbrowser_0.3.0release-3_source.changes: bad-distribution-in-changes-file intrepid19:19
ograWHAT ? 19:19
ograsilly 19:19
ograi'm building *on* intrepid you silly thing19:20
loolNobody ever touches lintian in Ubuntu by fear of having to merge it forever after :-)19:20
ian_brasil/dev/sda1 has 2GB and /dev/sda2 1.5GB ..after boot that is /dev/sda1 qith 1.5GB and cannot see /dev/sda2 19:24
venomeian_brasil: what does `sudo fdisk -l` say?19:26
venome ian_brasil: sry, it won't be there as well ...19:27
ian_brasili found it19:28
venome ian_brasil: in fdisk?19:28
ian_brasilthere is a resume file19:28
ograthats only a configuration19:29
ograshould contain a uuid19:29
ografor your swap partition19:29
ian_brasilogra: but this specifies the UUID to resume from 19:29
loologra: Do you know whether with the kernel model we have any tool which can simply save an hibernate image without actually hibernating?19:39
ograhmm, not of the top of my head, but i can find out19:40
* ogra test installs midbrowser19:41
ograyay, works19:42
* ogra uploads19:42
ografun, 45M ...19:43
ograhmm, is it because i used the n800 for some days or is it really a lot smoother in scrolling now 19:45
* persia finally determines the cause and solution for bug #27722519:58
ubottuLaunchpad bug 277225 in ubiquity "grub-installer missing on lpia, partman-efi missing on lpia, amd64" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/27722519:58
ograhmm, no luck on the Q1 with the new bluez stuff20:16
persiaNo?  It worked for me on the SR and the D4.  I haven't tried on the Y7 mostly because I fear breaking something, and use the Y7 all the time.20:16
persiaWhich device doesn't work, and how?20:17
ogranothing works20:17
ograi dont even see my mobile phone20:17
ograi cant change visibility either20:18
ograoh, heh, apt-get upgrade didnt really pull in everything20:20
ograhmm, actullally it wants to remove more than it installs, hmm20:23
ograhmm, now the applet is gone completely 20:25
ograhmm., the packages conflict20:32
ograand i have constant crashers of the daemon20:32
ian_brasilfwiw i just found out that the N8* uses a similar system of boot to hibernate using a modified (proprietary i think)  bootloader which pulls the kernel into RAM20:37
ograthe n8x0 is arm20:38
ograthat works totally differnt to x8620:38
ograyou can actually power off a lot more there20:38
ian_brasilogra: right, but the concept of a boot to hibernate state is not so crazy is what i wanted to discover20:39
persiaian_brasil: It's not crazy, as long as you don't update your kernel or modules: that requires a real reboot.20:39
ian_brasilboot time is a real big issue..with ogras suggestion we got the 500Mhz Geode from 5 mins down to 50 seconds20:41
ian_brasilbut it needs to be lower so maybe this is a solution20:42
persiaYeah.  I don't really like the definition of "boot time" as a metric.  I prefer "Time to use".  On my Zaurus, I think I actually rebooted only a couple times a year.20:44
ian_brasilthe worst thing about it is that it is the first thing the client sees so it sets off the 'pitch the system for more dev money' meetings off to a bad start20:46
persiaian_brasil: Only if you display it.  Walk in with a hibernated system, and show off a 2-second to working environment, and you'll wow the client.20:55
persiaThat "working environment" only needs to have refreshed the last state of the screen: you have a few more seconds to make things work while the user recovers from the "instant on" effect.20:55
persiaAt least on my Zaurus, it took an extra couple seconds before I could scroll or anything, but most of the time I just wanted to get back to my book, or look at the last state of my Sudoku puzzle.20:56
ian_brasilpersia: ha ha..well i do not want to be on the customer support lines when it is not 2 secs for joe sixpack to see his desktop when he turns on his new purchase..i would rather ship a hibernate image. Most people have no idea about resume/suspend/hibernate anyway...b.t.w ubuntu-mobile is exactly 2 mins on the eeepc 900 to boot from the stick20:59
persiaYeah, I think you'll find an actual install (even to another USB stick) faster.21:00
ograoh, it doesnt segfailt21:01
persiaOK.  You said segfault.  I can do segfault.  Now you're talking mystery bug, where I'm not so strong.21:01
lool'night folks21:07
persiaGood night lool.21:07
=== asac_ is now known as asac-the-nm-rock
=== asac-the-nm-rock is now known as nm-rocker
=== nm-rocker is now known as asac

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