[09:10] <lool> StevenK: So we should drop moblin-media
[09:10] <lool> StevenK: Can you give elisa a go?  :-)
[09:10] <StevenK> lool: I have just commited the seed changes, replacing it with totem and gthumb
[09:10] <lool> You're in love with gthumb aren't you
[09:10] <StevenK> persia is to blame
[09:11] <StevenK> Let me install elisa
[09:11] <lool> persia: What about eog?
[09:11] <persia> I'm not a huge fan of gthumb, I just think that f-spot has too many dependencies for intrepid, and look forward to directhex's improvements for jaunty.
[09:11] <StevenK> Um
[09:11] <StevenK> elisa is *enormous*
[09:11] <persia> lool: Doesn't have a thumbnail overview function.  Can't mount cameras.
[09:12] <lool> StevenK: Well, it's python, it has many plugins, many python deps, but I'd say the packages themselves are big because of some artwork
[09:12] <StevenK> But, but, 88MB
[09:12] <lool> StevenK: It's a bit like emacs, you can run it fullscreen and replace your whole OS with it!
[09:13] <persia> lool: That's precisely the behaviour we *don't* want for smaller devices.
[09:13] <StevenK> Sure. I'll also upload -default-settings that calls elisa rather than hildon-desktop?
[09:13] <lool> persia: Ok, I agree f-spot is a bit heavy
[09:13] <StevenK> :-P
[09:13] <lool> (even I prefer it)
[09:13] <StevenK> I think elisa is too big
[09:13] <lool> persia: I don't see the relation
[09:14] <lool> elisa is sexy, has bling, big icons, is easy to navigate in because it's meant to be possible to use it from your TV
[09:14] <StevenK> Big icons == badness on small screens
[09:14] <persia> No.  Big icons == badness on low resolution screens.
[09:14] <lool> I think the media center design caracteristics make it a good fit for PMP
[09:15] <persia> None of the icons for Ubuntu Mobile are large enough for my 5" screen.
[09:15] <lool> persia: Remember it's meant to be displayed full screen
[09:15] <persia> In fact, at the same resolution, we need *bigger* icons on smaller screens.
[09:15] <lool> Each icon is displayed on the full screen; it's scalable not big in term of pixmaps size
[09:15] <lool> It will be big on all screen sizes :)
[09:16] <persia> No, it will be small on my 3.5" 852x480 screen.
[09:16] <persia> Just lots of pixels.
[09:16] <lool> Comparatively to your screen, it will be big
[09:16] <persia> OK.  I'll accept that.
[09:17] <StevenK> I think it's too big. But I'll try it
[09:19] <lool> StevenK: Don't forget it would provide all media playback facilities, import and all, for photos, videos, music, online viewing (youtube flickr etc.)
[09:19] <persia> lool: How does the import work?  Would that conflict with the stuff being done by thunar?  Have you tested it on recent daily images?
[09:19] <lool> StevenK: Make sure you try on a host with OpenGL though; I'd say that's the biggest blocker in our ecosystem
[09:20] <StevenK> If it requires GL, then I'd say it isn't suitable currently
[09:20] <lool> persia: I don't know the work done by thunar; I think elisa will import media on an usb stick when it gets automounted
[09:20] <persia> Yeah, GL is right out.
[09:21] <lool> StevenK: It's purely GL
[09:21] <StevenK> libdvdread3? Give me a break
[09:21] <lool> StevenK: Eh how do you intend to play DVDs in your media center!  :)
[09:21] <persia> lool: I'm very leery of adding anything to the seeds that hasn't been tested.  Please test it against the images.
[09:22] <lool> persia: Are you suggesting I don't test stuff I add to the seeds?
[09:22] <persia> StevenK: And, yes, it's quite easy to attach a DVD player to a MID (I have done so, to boot off the liveCD).
[09:22] <persia> lool: Are you not suggesting elisa be added to the seeds?  Am I confused?
[09:22] <lool> I'm suggesting StevenK tries out elisa in the eventuality of adding it to the seeds
[09:23] <persia> Oh.  Then I suggest you like to convince other people to test stuff before it gets added to the seeds :)
[09:25] <lool> TBH with the state of the poulsbo drivers, I don't think we can target elisa as a default
[09:26] <lool> But GL can't stay a blocker for much longer with the trains of Clutter apps arriving
[09:26] <persia> Oh, I don't think it's just about the psb drivers.  I dislike dependency on GL.
[09:26] <persia> Yeah, that's all the more reason to not depend on GL for intrepid.  It's exceptionally likely that jaunty will require it.
[09:29] <lool> persia: Can we discuss the upstart session job WRT openvt?
[09:30] <persia> lool: Sure.  What's your question?
[09:30]  * persia boots today's image for discussion
[09:31] <lool> (I'm still syncing today's image)
[09:31] <lool> persia: I'd like to revisit where we left stuff in terms of startx from upstart
[09:31] <persia> That's fine.  We can still talk about it.
[09:32] <persia> OK.  My memory is that the issue was that we needed to start *after* hal, but wanted to start *before* other services in runlevel 2.
[09:32] <persia> As a result, I generated a sysvinit job that starts the upstart job to work around the race condition.
[09:32] <lool> The three issues I'm aware of: a) startx failing due to security checks on fd0 being /dev/ttyN, b) startx being racy with other stuff, starting but the Xorg vt not being visble c) Xorg starting before hal
[09:33] <lool> We added openvt for a), you added some init script for c)
[09:33] <lool> I'd like to drop openvt when I upload the new xorg
[09:34] <persia> If the new xorg works around the problem, I'm happy to drop openvt
[09:34] <lool> I don't quite know the impact this has on b)
[09:34] <lool> Do people still get Xorg in a non-visible VT currently?
[09:34] <lool> I don't, but I might just be lucky
[09:34] <persia> Right.  We're solving that with openvt -s right now.
[09:35] <lool> Well it didn't solve it int he beginning
[09:35] <lool> Xorg was visible for a split second, and then boom, back to console
[09:35] <lool> Xorg on VT7
[09:36] <persia> I usually get Xorg on VT1, or so it seems based on Alt-arrow changes in the booted system.
[09:38] <lool> At least it still works merrily in KVM in the current image
[09:39] <lool> How come the keyboard supports Finland and not France, pff
[09:39] <persia> Hrm.  I think we ought push the new xorg, and then try changing openvt in a variety of environments to see the results.  If it works well, we can drop openvt
[09:39] <persia> Which keyboard?  How?
[09:44] <persia> lool: Whilst you're looking at xorg, do you know why UseFBDevice is hardcoded in xorg.conf for -MID, and missing in -Mobile?  Is this some lpia hackery?
[09:48] <lool> I don't know
[09:51] <lool> Weird, when I double click the speaker applet in mobile, I get the on screen keyboard
[09:52] <lool> Actually it just pops up randomly
[09:53] <persia> For me, once it was opened, it just stayed open every time I wanted to enter text, even when it obscured the place where I wanted to enter the text.
[09:54] <lool> ogra: I know vertical pixels are expensive, but the title is cut for all apps in the list of tasks; either we shouldn't display text and have bigger icons, or the task list should be at the bottom to have longer titles
[09:54] <lool> Actually the text could also be below the icon to help somewhat
[09:54] <lool> persia: What's annoying is that it covers the panel so you can't reclick it from the na
[09:54] <persia> I'd be just as happy having the text only be available in a hover context hint.  On my zaurus, there are only icons, no text.
[09:55] <persia> lool: Just hit the desktop button in the lower right.  That lets you access the menu.  The keyboard will then pop up again when you launch an application.
[09:56] <lool> persia: yeah, that's the solution I came too as well
[09:56] <persia> I'm not sure it's best, but have no idea how to fix it.
[09:58] <lool> It took five minutes to NM to get network access pfff
[10:00] <persia> That's just NM.
[10:02] <lool> popup windows can't stay without decorations, otherwise they are to be confused with the underlying window
[10:03] <lool> ogra: Hmm we didn't setup a call yesterday
[10:16] <mdz> lool: I tried the ubuntu-mobile.img daily and it installed fine, but the resulting KVM image won't boot (stops at "Booting from hard disk..." before GRUB)
[10:16] <lool> mdz: I just kvm started today's ubuntu-mobile.img
[10:17] <lool> "kvm -m 512 -hda ubuntu-mobile.img" is how I startede
[10:17] <lool> I'm on amd64
[10:18] <lool> Err I just tried again and it's hanging where you say it hangs
[10:18] <persia> Yesterday's image worked great.  I'll try today's again.
[10:18] <lool> Did I just wait for long or is it racy hmm
[10:19] <mdz> lool: kvm changed in the past few days
[10:19] <lool> mdz: It worked minutes ago with the same image, same packages, I didn't upgrade /anything/
[10:19] <mdz> lool: so you have an image which was booting before but is no longer booting, without change?
[10:19] <mdz> hmm
[10:19] <lool> It doesn't load grub
[10:21] <StevenK> ogra: Ping
[10:21] <lool> I booted an old -mobile image this morning, it had no keyboard/mouse due to known bug, rsynced the last image, it booted and worked fine
[10:22] <lool> StevenK: It's hard to "double click" on the Q1's touch screen, perhaps kourou should allow launching by single clicking?
[10:22] <StevenK> lool: I've noticed that.
[10:23] <StevenK> lool: Should I allow both, or just single click?
[10:23] <lool> StevenK: Perhaps it's best to allow both, I fear if you don't the double click will cause two launches
[10:23] <StevenK> lool: It depends which callback gets called
[10:24] <persia> Hrm.  the ubuntu-mobile image seems to have been updated in the last 8 hours.  Anyone know why?
[10:24] <lool> Bah midbrowser doesn't come up
[10:24] <lool> persia: There was a respin for the ubiquity upload and the langpacks
[10:24] <lool> persia: I think I mentionned this 12 hours ago here
[10:24] <persia> lool: There's a bug about that: it seems to have died in the last xul changes.
[10:25] <StevenK> persia: Because dailies were generated?
[10:25] <persia> lool: Yes, but I downloaded ubuntu-mobile about 5 hours ago, and I just discovered that what I have doesn't match what is on the server, and am downloading it again.
[10:25] <persia> This is more recent than the other stuff.
[10:25] <lool> StevenK: Also, it's kind of weird that one can select an app as in highlight the entry
[10:25] <persia> StevenK: But *only* ubuntu-mobile was updated out of the set I track (ubuntu desktop alternate lpia, ubuntu studio alternate i386, ubuntu desktop live i386, ubuntu mid, ubuntu mobile)
[10:25] <lool> It's like you could highlight it or a group of apps and do something with them
[10:26] <lool> But Enter, of Shift+Arrows don't do anything to the selection
[10:26] <StevenK> You can't, but iconview allows selection
[10:26] <StevenK> persia, lool: -mobile is generated at 2:45am BST
[10:27] <lool> mdz: I suspect kvm/qemu mangles the disk image to allow booting
[10:27] <lool> mdz: I'm computing the md5sum of the images after rsyncing
[10:27] <persia> StevenK: There was an update today later in the day.
[10:27] <lool> mdz: And it doesn't match anymore, but it matched after the rsync
[10:27] <lool> I'm pretty sure I'll rsync it and it will boot
[10:28] <lool> mdz: Yup, that worked
[10:29] <lool> mdz: It's booting again
[10:29] <StevenK> 20081002 was published at 0327 BST
[10:29] <persia> lool: The live image, or the post-install image?
[10:29] <StevenK> It would have hit cdimage.u.c approximately five minutes after
[10:29] <lool> persia: The .img live image from cdimage in kvm
[10:29] <persia> Hrm.  Odd.  Perhaps I updated as early as that.
[10:29] <lool> mdz: And it boots again
[10:30] <lool> I did launch the installer, I hope it didn't mangle sda when probing
[10:30] <persia> lool: That's not the described issue.  It's the post-install boot.
[10:30] <StevenK> apt-get install devscripts debootstrap germinate bzr liburi-perl zsh openssh-client
[10:30] <lool> Well I got the live image in the same state
[10:30] <StevenK> Oops, wrong window
[10:31] <lool> StevenK: Do you think you could add icons to the list of menus?
[10:31] <persia> Hurrah.  passwd/auto-login preseeding *is* working.
[10:31] <StevenK> lool: Icons to the drop downs themselves?
[10:31] <persia> lool: We don't even have an icon for the Home menu.
[10:32] <lool> StevenK: yes
[10:32] <StevenK> Personally, I'm afraid of the C code that drives that drop-down, given m-b-f
[10:32] <lool> persia: It's quite easy to find one IMO
[10:32] <StevenK> I suspect it neatly surpasses my knowledge of GTK and C, too
[10:32] <ogra> StevenK, oh, sorry, feel free to change the timeout value ... 
[10:33] <StevenK> ogra: I did.
[10:33] <StevenK> ogra: It's now 50, and there is a message, check out the branch on antimony
[10:34] <ogra> i just didnt want it to st there forever
[10:34] <ogra> i dont care about the length
[10:34] <StevenK> ogra: Can you please tag and push your changes to ubuntu-mid-default-settings? :-)
[10:35] <ogra> oh, right, probably should also create a branch for the mobile settings package
[10:35] <lool> persia: the ubiquity "user identity" screen overflows on the Q1
[10:35] <persia> lool: Which image?
[10:35] <lool> persia: rmid
[10:35] <lool> mid
[10:36] <persia> OK.  Which direction?  It works for me at 800x600 under vesa, so I'm a little confused.
[10:37] <lool> persia: vertically, in French, "step N out of 7" is over the "this name will be used to identify the computer blah"
[10:37] <lool> Ouhc, python traceback
[10:37] <persia> Odd.  I'll take another look.
[10:38] <lool> at bootdevice=self.db.get('grub-installed/bootdev')
[10:38] <persia> Yeah, that's something in grub-installer that I keep getting interrupted from investigating.  Unfortunately, the alternate desktop CD has inconsistent packages today, and I'm *not* asking for any respins during beta for lpia desktop alternate.
[10:39] <lool> Could you -vvv the issue, what's inconsistent?
[10:39] <persia> Which issue?
[10:40] <ogra> lool, regardnig yourcomplaint about the menu size on mobile, did you test on the Q1 ? 
[10:40] <ogra> or on something smaller ?
[10:40]  * ogra still finds the menu finger friendly 
[10:41] <lool> ogra: I'm about to test on the Q1
[10:41] <lool> ogra: But if the size is sufficient in the menu, why not make the panel as small?
[10:41] <lool> I'm writing the fixed ubuntu-mobile.img now
[10:41] <ogra> i use the panel with my thumb
[10:42] <lool> ogra: And not the menu?
[10:42] <ogra> if i hold my device with oth hands i usually can reach all four corners with my thumb
[10:43] <ogra> if i do some action in an app or the menu i use my index finger
[10:43] <lool> Right, so the menu isn't usable with thumb only
[10:43] <ogra> try it
[10:43] <lool> I will, but there's a logic flaw here :)
[10:43] <ogra> i agree it *could* be bigger but not that it *must* be bigger :)
[10:44] <lool> ogra: The world wont fall under two small icons; I first noticed because it was visually weird
[10:44] <ogra> i fully agree about the other two points
[10:45] <ogra> but at lest the tasklist one will require patching.... so nothing for intrepid anymore i fear
[10:46] <persia> mdz: How did you call KVM for the install, and how did you call it for the boot of the result?
[10:46] <ogra> framing the popup windows is just a config change i think
[10:46] <mdz> persia: ah, good question
[10:46] <mdz> in order to get it to boot, I had to specify the .img as -hda
[10:46] <persia> RIght, and grub got installed on hda.
[10:46] <mdz> and install to a disk image on -hdb
[10:47] <mdz> then swap them
[10:47] <mdz> I thought GRUB was supposed to handle that case correctly these days, though
[10:47] <ogra> should that matter in the times of UUIDs ?
[10:47] <mdz> persia: how do you do it?
[10:47] <persia> If you want to install for KVM, I think you need to run something like -hda disk.img -hdb ubuntu-mobile.img -boot b
[10:48] <persia> mdz: I repeatly replicate your results under KVM, but reboot with the same definitions of -hda and -hdb, so have no issues (grub points to hdb, which boots).
[10:48] <lool> ogra: the menu entries are too far to the right for my thumb
[10:48] <persia> mdz: On real HW, I remove the install USB key, and grub did the right thing.
[10:48] <mdz> persia: -boot b means boot from floppy
[10:48] <persia> I thought that was -boot a
[10:48] <ogra> lool, but you can reach the menu icon with it to open the menu 
[10:48] <lool> ogra: So I'd say it doesn't matter much to have big icons in the top level panel; the only useful big icon there is the close one
[10:49] <lool> ogra: What's the point if I'm going to use my index anyway
[10:49] <lool> And I need it for the browser or thunderbird too
[10:49] <persia> Reading the manpage, I have no idea how to boot from the second hard drive.  If this was a CD image, there'd be no such issue.
[10:49] <mdz> persia: so is it actually clobbering the boot sector on ubuntu-mobile.img?
[10:49] <persia> Looks that way to me.  Let me try something.
[10:49] <mdz> persia: I think we need a standard recipe for this in the wiki
[10:49] <ogra> lool, well, i'll look if i can do anything about menu size, but i fear that will be a heavy patch
[10:50] <persia> mdz: Yes, that's precisely what it's doing.  If you later try to boot with only -hda to the modified image, it doesn't work.
[10:50] <persia> mdz: I think you're right.
[10:50] <lool> ogra: Well as I was saying, there are many apps / menus too
[10:50] <lool> ogra: Not sure it's a good idea to make the menu entries much bigger
[10:50] <mdz> persia: ideally we would boot from it as a USB device, but I don't know if qemu supports that
[10:50] <persia> StevenK: What do you think about creating .iso images, and pointing people to usb-creator if they don't have a USB CD drive?
[10:51] <lool> ogra: Perhaps menu should be slightly bigger and panel smaller?
[10:51] <mdz> persia: -usbdevice disk:ubuntu-mobile.img probably works, but I don't think it has support for booting from USB
[10:51] <lool> mdz: No, that's currently broken
[10:51] <persia> mdz: hardy qemu doesn't.  I don't have kvm running on intrepid today.
[10:51] <lool> mdz: Ah you mean fake an USB hard disk, sorry, I thought passing throuhg of USB real devices
[10:51] <ogra> lool, 36px panel ? 
[10:51] <mdz> lool: yes.  though, pass-through was working for me earlier in intrepid
[10:52]  * ogra finds that a bit to small
[10:52] <lool> persia: The same ubiquity screen works fine in mobile; I think we need to fiddle with gtk engines and font size
[10:52] <persia> Yeah, that's *really* small.
[10:52] <lool> mdz: In qemu or kvm?
[10:52] <persia> lool: So you think that it's not something that needs changing in ubiquity?  That's good news.
[10:53] <mdz> lool: kvm
[10:53] <lool> I think it's fixed in qemu, and last time I checked it was fixed in debian-experimental's kvm, but this didn't build in intrepid for me, at this point I stopped trying to use that
[10:53] <persia> Should be the same really.
[10:53] <lool> Nah, they're not in sync
[10:54] <lool> kvm regularly pulls newer qemus, but there's a delay
[10:55] <persia> Ah, that makes sense.  Too bad we're seeing that for release.  Still, the fact that one can't boot off USB is likely worse than anything else.
[10:55] <mdz> given that kvm falls back to qemu-style emulation if kernel support isn't available, it seems a bit odd that they need to be separate
[10:55] <persia> I still think using CD images is the easiest workaround.
[10:57] <mdz> probably so
[10:57] <mdz> but it would be very valuable to be able to test USB images more easily with kvm
[10:57] <ogra> mdz, btw you shuould be able to test it in vbox if you dont get kvm to work  
[10:58] <mdz> ogra: vbox can boot from USB?
[10:58] <lool> mdz: Well they work decently until you try to install them
[10:58] <ogra> mdz, no but vditool can convert .img to .vdi
[10:58] <persia> lool: They even install properly, it's just that one needs to manually reinstall grub on the resulting drive.
[10:59] <persia> ogra: How does that help the grub target issue?
[10:59] <ogra> vditool DD ubuntu-mobile.vdi ubuntu-mobile.img
[10:59] <ogra> and 
[10:59] <ogra> vditool SHRINK ubuntu-mobile.vdi
[10:59] <mdz> lool: well, they boot anyway :-)
[10:59] <mdz> lool: the web browser doesn't start up
[10:59] <ogra> persia, just testing that
[11:00] <lool> mdz: Just raised that minutes ago (/lastlog midbrowser) it's caused by recent xulrunner changes it seems
[11:00] <persia> ogra: ubiquity is looking for the first HD to install grub, which is the sensible behaviour.
[11:00] <persia> lool: I don't know if it is caused by those, but the timing is similar.
[11:00] <ogra> persia, ah
[11:01] <persia> ogra: So basically, for the virtual install experience, we need to recreate the "boot off USB" model, where the USB stick is *not* hd(0,0,0).
[11:01] <lool> GRRR /usr/lib/jvm/java-6-openjdk/bin/apt is an alternative for "apt", I don't want an apt command launching java
[11:01] <ogra> yeah, that wont work in vbox
[11:01] <ogra> at least not in the free edition
[11:02] <persia> Yeah.  Let's make it a CD.  It would be nice to be able to test USB images in virtual environments, but the virtual environments don't support that.  We could use d-i directly, and have alternate disks, but I like the live images.
[11:03] <persia> evand's work on usb-creator makes it nearly painless to convert a liveCD into a live USB stick.
[11:03] <persia> And the virtualisation environments will boot off CD optionally, and then boot off the install HD later.
[11:04] <persia> Otherwise users are just going to make a mess, and end up with images that boot to Error 21
[11:06] <ogra> bah, vbow panics anyway
[11:06] <ogra> *vbox
[11:06] <ogra> i thought the kernel tem fixed that 
[11:06] <persia> panics?  That's not good.
[11:07] <persia> There were reports of working vbox with both 32 and 64 bit guests in #ubuntu-testing recently.
[11:07] <ogra> if you add a kernel option to drop virtualization it works 
[11:08] <ogra> but apparently the old oops is still there for me otherwise
[11:08] <lool> I wonder whether we should provide some magic hda image for qemu/kvm which allows chosing the boot device
[11:08] <lool> or a cdrom (or a floppy :) image
[11:08] <persia> I'd rather do a CD image.
[11:09] <lool> Well netbooks don't always have CD
[11:09] <lool> and UMPC even less so
[11:09] <persia> There are plenty of people (like me) that have CD drives that can connect to a MID, or have Mobile devices with built-in optical drives.
[11:09] <lool> So it makes sense to provide people first with USB images
[11:09] <persia> It's also trivial to convert a CD image into a bootable USB key with usb-craetor.
[11:09] <lool> Still an additional step
[11:10] <lool> To help us with virtual testing which is only a development use case
[11:10] <persia> For real HW, I agree that USB is the way to go, but mdz brings up a useful point that people may want to play with virtualisation, and doing so corrupts the existing images.
[11:10] <persia> I wouldn't care so much if the problem was just that the result didn't boot, but that it corrupts the local image is a *big* issue to me.
[11:10] <lool> Yeah, and I propose a bootstrap generic cdrom image to use our usb images
[11:10] <lool> rather than switching our usb images
[11:10] <lool> or we could have a cdrom-creator :)
[11:11] <persia> We don't have cdrom-creator, it's past UI Freeze.
[11:11] <persia> In July, I'd be inclined to agree with you.  Today, I'm not.
[11:11] <lool> You didn't expect we'd switch from USB to CDROM images before release, did you?
[11:12] <persia> Actually, yes, I do.  It's about 20 lines of code.
[11:12] <persia> It's trivial to test, doesn't affect translations, etc.
[11:12] <ogra> oh, it didnt panic thist time
[11:12] <lool> I want to release USB images, that's what people want to use to install on their devices
[11:13] <ogra> persia, and in vbox i actually see what you mean with the panel applets
[11:13] <persia> Even though it's *trivial* to corrupt an image just because you wanted to try it before using it?  How do you think that will affect users' confidence in the results.
[11:13] <persia> usb-creator works *really* nicely, and does the job.  Lots of us who have lots of little devices have a CD drive around.
[11:14]  * persia has bugs against usb-creator, but minor ones, really.
[11:14] <lool> usb-creator is an additional step and not everybody has a cd drive
[11:14] <persia> Yes, but it means that it's difficult to corrupt the image, rather than being trivial.
[11:14] <persia> It also allows people to play in a KVM environment safely.
[11:14] <lool> Come on, we're speaking of people running in kvm, not the target *users*
[11:15] <ogra> well, if we could get vditool on antimony converting them for vbox would be trivial
[11:15] <lool> Plus, we should fix the corruption
[11:15] <persia> And no, playing in KVM from the live environment *isn't* suitable, because you can't reboot unless you create a special casper-rw filesystem.
[11:15] <ogra> its two additional commands 
[11:15] <persia> lool: How do we fix the corruption.  Change the standard behaviour of grub-install?
[11:15] <persia> Is that *really* safer than changing to CD images?
[11:16] <persia> ogra: Yes, but I don't want to have multiple images.  Trying to explain the multiplicity of images for Hardy was very annoying.
[11:17] <ogra> indeed
[11:17] <ogra> and users using vbox usually have vditool installed locally
[11:17] <persia> ogra: Also, we want to encourage *installs*, not live environments.  There are too many little annoyances in live environments.  I *really* like having them, but only for demo purposes.
[11:18] <lool> mdz: At least the install of mobile worked fine with a fixed image on the Q1
[11:20]  * persia goes back to lpia, still entirely certain that CDs are far superior to USB keys
[11:21]  * lool still believes we shouldn't change the format of the images just before release
[11:21] <persia> lool: The current format is broken...
[11:21] <lool> I actually have a good argument for ISO images, but I'll hold it until we release
[11:21] <lool> persia: Is not
[11:22] <persia> What's your argument for ISO images.  Don't hold back.
[11:22] <lool> I booted our two images today without running any conversion tool whatsoever and I installed one of them successfully on a device, still no conversion tool whatsoever
[11:22] <lool> I already gave you the argument in another discussion, but I'm glad you missed it
[11:22] <persia> No, but you needed to run dd.  usb-creator provides a GUI.
[11:23] <persia> Please share again.  digging through logs just takes me longer and distracts me more.
[11:23] <lool> You have no chance :)
[11:24] <ogra> the install seems to work fine if i boot vbox from secondary master
[11:24] <lool> ogra: I think it would work fine in kvm/qemu as well if I managed to boot from hdb
[11:24] <persia> ogra: vbox supports that!  Excellent.  Any idea how to do it in KVM?
[11:24] <lool> But this doesn't seem to be possible with -boot
[11:24] <lool> It's only hard disk
[11:24] <ogra> persia, no kvm user :)
[11:24] <persia> ogra: How about qemu ?
[11:25] <persia> lool: No: using the images in KVM is actively dangerous.  That's why I want CDs.
[11:25] <lool> It's not
[11:25] <ogra> they both draw massive ressources on my laptop ...
[11:25] <persia> ogra: I can't figure out how to do it, and otherwise running the install corrupts the install image.
[11:26] <persia> lool: It's running one program.  Not an uncommon action.
[11:26] <persia> Especially if someone wants to try different applications in a development environment before committing to their hardware.
[11:26] <lool> It's running what?
[11:26] <persia> As a long-time pocket computer user, I'll say that it takes a *lot* for me to want to change anything on my device, for fear of breaking something.
[11:27] <persia> Running the installer.
[11:27] <lool> So if any corruption goes on, we should fix it
[11:28]  * ogra watches the installer in vbox ...
[11:28] <persia> OK.  That happens as a result of the grub-installer code to select the right boot disk for a given environment.  Except under virtualisation, hdb is the wrong selection.
[11:29] <persia> soren has been having lots of trouble trying to determine when something is running under KVM for some X issues, and that's with the full Ubuntu environment.  Doing it in busybox is *even harder*.  Making changes to grub-installer that don't work in busybox is a bad idea.
[11:30] <persia> Oh, and it's even the wrong selection under virtualisation *except* when installing off a USB image.
[11:30] <lool> Sorry, didn't get your comment on grub-installer
[11:30] <lool> What's the issue with it?
[11:30] <ogra> lool, btw, there is a nice howto on the maemo wiki how to put your system on the internal flashcard intead of the internal rom, i use a 4G sdhc card on it now and its nearly twice as fast 
[11:30] <persia> lool: Which part don't you understand?
[11:30] <lool> ogra: But you're using the special bootloader?
[11:30] <ogra> yep
[11:30] <ogra> you have to
[11:30] <lool> Yeah
[11:30] <ogra> but 4G is a very good size :) 
[11:30] <lool> ogra: Didn't think it could make the OS faster, I thought it was the same type of hardware, just soldered on the mobo
[11:31] <lool> persia: I don't understand what you refer to at all
[11:31] <persia> lool: OK.  Do you understand the problem at all?
[11:31] <ogra> sdhc has up to 10M transferrates, not sure what the internal one has ... thats actually a good task for the weekend, i'll run some hdparm and bonnie tests :)
[11:32] <lool>                         /* Allowed boot devices are:
[11:32] <lool>                          * a b     : floppy disk drives
[11:32] <lool>                          * c ... f : IDE disk drives
[11:32] <lool> Pff manpage out of date
[11:32] <persia> Indeed :/
[11:32] <lool> persia: I'm afraid I don't even know which problem you're talking about
[11:32] <lool> Sorry  :-/
[11:33] <persia> lool: The problem is that when one runs the installer afte starting KVM with `kvm -hda ubuntu-mobile.img -hdb disk.img -m 512M` it boots into an environment where the primary hard drive is the USB image we provide (read-write), and the secondary hard drive is the virtual hard drive.
[11:34] <lool> Yes
[11:34] <persia> When the installer runs, the grub-installer component attempts to install grub on the default boot drive for the environment.
[11:34] <ogra> grrrr
[11:34] <persia> In this environment, that happens to be our image.
[11:34]  * ogra starts over
[11:34] <lool> persia: grub-installer does that?
[11:34] <lool> that's awfully broken  :-/
[11:34] <persia> Yes.
[11:34] <persia> No.
[11:34] <ogra> 2G wasnt enough on the target device ... and i thought "grow dynamically" means something pfft
[11:34] <persia> It's *only* broken when running an install from a USB key when claiming it's a hard drive in a virtual environment.
[11:35] <lool> Oh it does know how to exclude it when it's an USB key, just not when it appears as a hard disk?
[11:36] <persia> For real environments, yes.  In our special KVM environment no, because we told KVM is wasn't a USB drive.
[11:36] <lool> It would be nice to emulate an USB drive, but I also think the exclusion could use more sensible data such as the uuid of the live system or something to exclude this device
[11:36] <persia> Really, give usb-creator a try: I think you'll find it a better experience than dd for most users, and it solves the issues.
[11:37] <lool> It doesn't solve the issue, it just makes us use something else
[11:37] <persia> That means updating a UUID list in grub-installer for *every* CD spin.  Since grub-installer is *never* used directly, but only as part of ubiquity or debian-installer, that way lies madness.
[11:38] <persia> Right.  It makes it difficult to cause the problem, and we have time to maybe fix it in jaunty.
[11:38] <persia> Currently, it's trivial to cause the problem, which is bad.
[11:38] <lool> The problem could also very well be avoided by booting on hdb with the image in it
[11:38] <persia> It's especially bad if we want to get more developers, as the number of people who can play with virtual environments is much larger than the number of people with devices that they are willing to sacrifice for development.
[11:39] <persia> That's true.  I just think it's easier to change how we build images than it is to fix KVM at this point.
[11:39] <persia> I also think that usb-creator is significantly more user-friendly than dd, and we should recommend it's use.
[11:41] <persia> Like I said before, in July, I'd agree with you.  In December, I'll agree with you.  Today, I want CD images.
[11:42] <lool> Sorry but how can you make a point about easy of development to change the way which will only affect the released images?
[11:42] <lool> It's not like developers can help us right now
[11:42] <lool> Everything is frozen
[11:43] <persia> No, but we can get more developers in November, and having released an image that is easy to use, hard to break, etc. is a good thing.
[11:43] <lool> This image exists, it can be used from live envs
[11:43] <persia> We have *no* GUI to convert a USB image into a USB drive (yes, we have usb-imagewriter, but neither of the people who have dug at the code did so enough for intrepid release).
[11:43] <persia> And we have the KVM issue.
[11:44] <lool> It just can't be installed to a virtual disk easily because we lack proper detection or boot switches
[11:44] <persia> And a live environment isn't suitable: a couple of apt-get update; apt-get upgrades breaks it.
[11:44] <persia> (this is true for any live environment: it has to do with the way casper sets up the environment, and the available space)
[11:45]  * lool lunch &
[11:45] <persia> Have fun.
[11:46] <ogra> persia, i will PPA it the next days
[11:47] <ogra> so people dont struggel with dd at least
[11:48] <ogra> just on a sidenote, screenrefresh in vbox with vesa officially sucks
[11:48] <persia> ogra: Sure, but we have usb-creator in the archives.  As much as I can see arguments for usb images, and as much as I like usb-imagewriter, I don't think USB images are the right format for the intrepid release.
[11:48] <persia> (and that's not a virtualbox issue : I can replicate on real HW)
[11:49] <ogra> persia, ??
[11:49] <persia> screen refresh being slow.
[11:49] <ogra> you mean no screen update until you move the pointer out of the vbox window ?
[11:49] <ogra> its an issue with vbox and the mouse grabbing :)
[11:49] <persia> heh.  no.  I can't replicate that.  I only find vesa slow.
[11:49] <ogra> yeah, it always was
[11:50] <ogra> i think usb images are fine
[11:50] <ogra> its what users demand and hat their hardware supports
[11:50] <ogra> you cant force every netbook user to buy a usb cdrom
[11:51] <ogra> or UMPC user
[11:51] <ogra> or MID users to find out which adapter they need to make that work
[11:51] <persia> I agree, but I actually like the usb-creator interface.  Give it a try.
[11:52] <persia> (and I don't know *any* MIDs, even ARM that don't either come with a USB cable, or have a standard USB port)
[11:52] <persia> (maybe mini, but still standard)
[11:52] <ogra> nice UI or not, the mobile users simply dont have CDroms usually
[11:52] <persia> You miss my point.
[11:52] <ogra> so there is no point to make CD our target format
[11:53] <persia> usb-creator puts the contents of an ISO onto a USB drive such that the result boots.
[11:53] <ogra> yes
[11:53] <ogra> but still
[11:53] <persia> This means people don't need to use dd.
[11:53] <ogra> that forces the user to manual steps
[11:53] <persia> Explaining how to use dd correctly has been one of the biggest support issues we've had.
[11:54] <ogra> usb-imagewriter should solve that 
[11:54] <persia> It replaces running dd with running a program.  It doesn't change the number of steps involved.
[11:54] <persia> Yes, but usb-imagewriter isn't part of the release.
[11:54] <persia> Much like fixing KVM to boot off USB solves the corruption problem, I simply don't care for intrepid.
[11:54] <ogra> right, and we wont change anything for intrepid at that point anyway
[11:55] <persia> And yes, I don't think CD images are the right long-term solution, but they solve *two* outstanding issues for intrepid.
[11:55] <ogra> bring it up at UDS
[11:55] <persia> I won't want CD images at UDS.  I only want them now.
[11:55] <ogra> but now is to late in the cycle
[11:55] <ogra> we only have a month left 
[11:55] <persia> What?  To change 20 lines of code in the image scripts?
[11:56] <ogra> changing the whole infrastructure, making sure it works etc 
[11:56] <persia> This isn't hard.
[11:56] <ogra> but risky
[11:56] <persia> I don't want to change the whole infrastructure: just the image build script to make CDs.
[11:56] <ogra> even adding mobile at the point it was added was already to risky
[11:56] <persia> Not very risky.
[11:56] <persia> And it solves *two* outstanding issues.  There are benefits.
[11:57] <persia> And it *doesn't* affect anything except -mid and -mobile.  *every* other way to solve the problems affects other flavours.
[11:57]  * ogra still disabrees
[11:57] <ogra> *disagrees
[11:57] <persia> Why.  What is the benefit of USB images?
[11:58] <ogra> people using umpc or netbooks expect them
[11:58] <persia> (and no, that people have USB ports doesn't count, because we aren't shipping USB drives)
[11:58] <ogra> and apprently the bigger amount gets it right ...
[11:58] <ogra> the uneducated ones wil see an iso and not know what to do 
[11:58] <persia> Who ships USB images for mobile distros?
[11:59] <persia> usb-creator solves that.
[11:59] <ogra> you wont change my mind :) 
[11:59] <persia> OK.  Please ask again when you'd like to debate on merits.
[12:00]  * persia would *like* to have a changed mind, but doesn't want a lousy experience for users
[12:00] <ogra> usb-imagewriter is fine and would be in the archive, hell i would even have a windows version ready if not everyone had told me i shouldnt use dd in the backend
[12:01] <persia> Sure, and usb-imagewriter is the *better* solution.  It's still not in intrepid.
[12:01] <ogra> it will be in a PPA 
[12:01] <ogra> and i plan to make it usable in windows
[12:02] <ogra> but facing all the resistance when i first uploaded it made me drop work on it for now
[12:02] <persia> Yes, but that's not a useful place for it: usb-creator is installed *by default* for -desktop, and could be installed *by default* for the live images, if we wanted.
[12:02] <persia> (personally, I think we don't want it on our images, but having it on desktop makes for a simple support case)
[12:02] <persia> I'd much rather have usb-imagewriter, but we don't.
[12:03] <persia> Similarly, I'd much rather have KVM boot off virtual USB drives, but it doesn't.
[12:03] <ogra> right, that gets us the benefit that we get users with real HW to test for us ;)
[12:03] <persia> And to me, it's not worth recommending people install PPA stuff, when I spend time trying to convince people *not* to do that most of the time.
[12:04]  * ogra reboots his vbox install
[12:04] <persia> How does *limiting* the options get us more users?
[12:05] <ogra> vbox works fine btw
[12:06] <persia> Well, assuming one sets the correct arguments.  How does one do that exactly?
[12:06] <persia> Is it trivial?
[12:06] <ogra> relatively
[12:06]  * persia hopes for "Yes".
[12:06] <lool> persia: So I thought about this over lunch
[12:06] <persia> lool: And?
[12:06] <lool> persia: You came up with more and more arguments over the discussion, but I'm still unhappy to change something at beta time
[12:07] <lool> s/something/image type
[12:07] <persia> lool: So am I, I just think this is the least invasive possible change to solve 1) KVM use, and 2) GUI for USB drive preparation.
[12:07] <ogra> you have to use the .vdi as secondary master, target needs to be primary master and hit f12 on first boot to select the secodnrary master as boot device
[12:08] <persia> ogra: That's not so bad.
[12:08] <ogra> lool, ++
[12:08]  * persia looks into KVM bios options
[12:08] <ogra> persia, well, and indeed you need to convert before using vditool 
[12:08] <lool> I think it would have been possible to discuss changing image types some two weeks ago
[12:08] <lool> Even in some freezes
[12:09] <lool> With some well articulated cases
[12:09] <ogra> as i said, i even found the mobile addition to be at a problematic point already
[12:09] <lool> But the discussion started from a single bug
[12:09] <ogra> which we should rather fix :)
[12:09] <persia> lool: Yes, but I don't know any less invasive way to solve that bug, and it's *not* hard to change the image type.
[12:09] <lool> It did evolve in interesting arguments in favor of ISO images, and I'm quite convinced of our need of ISOs for jaunty
[12:09] <ogra> than working around by changing the whole infrastructure
[12:10] <persia> lool: Now I'm confused.  I don't want ISOs for Jaunty.  Why do you?
[12:10]  * persia would like to see the root causes of the bugs addressed.
[12:10]  * ogra wants usb-imagewriter ... including a windows binary
[12:10] <ogra> and usb images
[12:10] <lool> persia: It wouldn't be hard to build MIC images again   ;-)
[12:10] <ogra> hey, now thats a good idea !
[12:10] <lool> ogra: Argh you unveiled my killer argument
[12:11] <persia> lool: Yes it would.  I'm fairly sure you'd have great difficulty resurrecting rmic.
[12:11] <lool> Depends whether you include convincing StevenK or only consider the technical changes
[12:11] <persia> lool: Your killer argument was the ability to create images from Windows?
[12:11] <persia> I include convincing not only StevenK but infinity.
[12:11] <ogra> s/create/write/
[12:12] <lool> Yeah, I think the argument of having a windows solution is a serious one
[12:12] <persia> I prefer usb-imagewriter in Windows to having CD images just because of Windows.
[12:12] <persia> I think usb-imagewriter in Windows is something we can see by December.
[12:12] <lool> There's already an USB image writing tool for windows
[12:12] <lool> And Linux
[12:12] <lool> And it doesn't take USB .imgs as input, only .isos
[12:12] <ogra> th eredhat tool ? 
[12:12] <lool> The Fedora one yeah
[12:13] <lool> I don't even understand why we wrote our own usb-craetor
[12:13] <ogra> thats usb-imagewriter on steroids
[12:13] <lool> ogra: It takes an iso as input and creates an usb bootable image with syslinux
[12:13] <ogra> its is a wrapper around an unlicensed version of DD for windows
[12:13] <ogra> not sure we want that
[12:14] <ogra> oh, and unmaintained
[12:14] <ogra> (the dd for win)
[12:14] <persia> ogra: Which tool are you deprecating so effectively?
[12:14] <ogra> liveusb-creator or some such
[12:14] <ogra> the redhat tool for creating images
[12:14] <lool> ogra: I didn't look at the implementation, but there is a place where I can point people at for windows binaries which allow taking an iso and writing an usb key; no usb cdrom drive, no ubuntu install required
[12:14]  * ogra did look and really dislikes it massively
[12:15] <lool> https://fedorahosted.org/liveusb-creator
[12:15] <persia> Right.  I already don't like that tool, and I'd never heard of it before.
[12:16] <persia> So, can anyone tell me the risks they see in switching to CD images for intrepid.  Like I said, I'm very prepared to change my mind, as long as the reason is more than "it might be hard".
[12:16] <lool> ogra: Well I'm happy to consider replacing it by something better if it really is broken, but it's working for people under windows right now
[12:16] <ogra> lool, right, i can make usb-imagewriter easily do the same in the same weird way
[12:17] <persia> ogra: But not for intrepid.
[12:17] <ogra> i'm working here because we usually provide *proper* solutions over the hackish ones
[12:17] <ogra> liveusb-creator is a gross hack
[12:17] <lool> persia: There's a balance between providing USB and ISO images, this balance is in my mind slightly in favor of ISO images as we speak for various reasons we discussed here, but the difference is not so huge that I'd consider changing the image type at this point of the cycle
[12:18] <persia> Bother.  My arguments have had entirely the opposite effect of that intended.
[12:18] <ogra> we should have had this discussion at uds
[12:18] <lool> ogra: +1
[12:18] <ogra> but now that we have everything running in the infrastructure it doesnt really seem sane to switch back to an experimental state
[12:19] <persia> I don't mind that the install from KVM doesn't work.  I don't mind that one has to do odd things to make vbox work.  I don't even mind that one has to use dd from the command line.
[12:19] <ogra> you always had to do odd things for vbox
[12:19] <persia> I'm *extremely* concerned that testing an install in a virtual environment without special adjustments can *corrupt* the install image.
[12:19] <ogra> more so in hardy even
[12:19] <persia> To me, that's a very visible and significant issue.
[12:19] <lool> persia: Well we can convince people to protect the image then
[12:20] <lool> As in using chattr or something to protect the file, or perhaps a -ro flag if there's one
[12:20] <persia> lool: I tried that.  Setting mode 444 doesn't prevent it from being corrupted,
[12:20] <lool> chattr will :)
[12:20] <persia> Really?
[12:20]  * persia tries
[12:20] <lool> You want +i
[12:21] <persia> lool: `chattr +i` ?
[12:21] <persia> Right.  Testing now.
[12:21] <lool> Even root gets permission denied in writing to such files
[12:21] <persia> SO, I've run `chattr +i toy.img`, and now I'm going to corrupt it.
[12:23] <persia> The good news is that I get Permission Denied when I mount it.  Let's see what happens in the virtual environment.
[12:24] <lool> I hope kvm block devices don't do nasty things in the kernel
[12:24] <persia> I kinda expect them too, as part of the general accelleration.
[12:24] <lool> But since this is ultimately backed by an ext3 or something, it shouldn't be possible
[12:25] <persia> Right.  Just want to verify that.  Telling people to chattr +i when using in a virtual environment is something acceptable to me.  Not very clean, but at least acceptable.
[12:25] <persia> Oh, cool.  Fails to boot.
[12:25] <persia> So, yeah, that doesn't work.  Any other suggestions?
[12:26] <persia> Wait, it's just extremely slow...
[12:27] <crevette> hello
[12:27] <persia> No, it really fails to boot.  " * Loading hardware drivers...   [fail] "
[12:27] <persia> Followed by I/O errors.
[12:27] <persia> Or no, maybe it is booting, just *really slowly.
[12:27] <persia> Hi crevette
[12:28] <crevette> for anyone working on having bluez 4.xx for intrepid: can you test gnome-user-share 0.40 on my ppa
[12:28] <crevette> salut persia 
[12:28] <crevette> it bring some neat feature I worked on upstream
[12:28] <crevette> and native bluez 4.xx support
[12:28] <persia> crevette: How does it differ from the version in ~bluetooth/+archive ?
[12:28] <crevette> ie not patched
[12:28] <crevette> I did a changelog
[12:28] <persia> crevette: (and Ideally we don't want to add new features at this point in the cycle)
[12:29] <crevette> ah okay
[12:29] <persia> I also want 4.X because 3.X appears to be fairly firmly broken, but 4.X + new features is maybe a bit much for the release managers to swallow.
[12:29]  * ogra promised mario to test after beta
[12:30] <ogra> do we have other packages as well that would be worth testing (i.e. are likely to get in)
[12:30] <persia> ogra: If you have time to test before beta, that would help too.  Ideally, the suite can drop in on Friday.
[12:31] <persia> Everything proposed for update for BlueZ 4.x should be in the ~bluetooth PPA.
[12:31] <ogra> persia, well, i'm trying to shake out the last bits in -mobile atm and i think its time for another blog post and some notification at umpcportal
[12:31] <persia> ogra: I agree : it's "If you have time" :)
[12:32] <ogra> additionally i promised njpatel to get the fixes for netbook-launcher in, if i still find extra time today i'll jump on bluez
[12:32] <persia> Especially because I wasn't able to get -mobile into the beta test list (it will be on the iso tracker immediately post-beta)
[12:32] <ogra> i dont care about beta for it, but i want to keep the enthusiasm high 
[12:32] <ogra> so blogging is my first duty ;) 
[12:33] <ogra> (but first i need to make a test instal of tonights img to see all changes got in)
[12:33] <ogra> wow, the rsync took 3min only :)
[12:34] <lool> persia: So what happens with the chattred .img?  :)
[12:35] <lool> I don't quite see what could cause slowness
[12:35]  * StevenK grumbles. Don't speak about rmic to me
[12:35] <persia> lool: Install is 66% complete.  grub-installer runs *last*
[12:35] <lool> Oh so it does boot
[12:35] <persia> lool: The slowness is because I'm getting I/O errors trying to access HDA
[12:36] <persia> Also, the failure to load hardware drivers bothers me: it's certainly suboptimal.
[12:41] <persia> ogra: Please take a look at the casper-bottom scripts.  Ideally the screensaver should be disabled in the install, so that it doesn't generate a blank screen.
[12:41] <persia> I think I saw a stub there for -desktop, and I wonder why it doesn't seem to fix -mobile.
[12:41] <ogra> i addeed that code, i'll look
[12:42] <ogra> but i doubt its the screensaver you see
[12:42] <persia> heh :)  Excellent.  Anyway, I just had a screen blanking event: perhaps it was just some other powersave thing hitting me.
[12:42] <ogra> yep
[12:42] <StevenK> ogra: Please tag and push your changes for -mid-default-settings 
[12:42] <ogra> its more likely gpm
[12:44] <ogra> meh
[12:44] <ogra> StevenK, i cant push ?
[12:45] <StevenK> You can't?
[12:46] <StevenK> ogra: Why can't you?
[12:47] <ogra> Update this branch:  	 You cannot upload to this branch. Members of Ubuntu Mobile Team  can upload to this branch. 
[12:47] <ogra> i'm definately logged in
[12:48] <StevenK> Hm.
[12:48] <StevenK> davidm: ogra isn't a member of the ubuntu-mobile team. Could you correct that? :-)
[12:49] <davidm> I can
[12:49] <ogra> hrm
[12:49] <persia> lool: "Executing 'grub-install (hd0)' failed.  This is a fatal error. "  No image corruption.
[12:49] <ogra> there isnt even an apply button
[12:50] <lool> ogra: Too many random candidacies
[12:50] <ogra> ah
[12:53] <lool> StevenK: around?
[12:54] <lool> StevenK: Could you poke https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2823 ?
[12:54] <ogra> oooh, the ubiquity fix for auto-login is in ?? wow
[12:55] <StevenK> lool: What about it?
[12:55] <lool> StevenK: Upstream is asking for info
[12:56] <lool> StevenK: "is Modest using the string itself, or is it a widget from libhildon? Could you
[12:56] <lool> show a code snipset?"
[12:56] <ogra> StevenK, pushed
[12:57] <persia> Team meeting in 3 minutes in #ubuntu-meeting
[12:57] <StevenK> It's libhildon itself, I think.
[12:57] <StevenK> I'd have to dig
[12:58] <davidm> Yep
[13:00] <davidm> StevenK, joining meeting?
[13:07] <LjL> is there a VM (VMWare preferred, but i guess i can convert) image of Ubuntu Mobile available - not MID, at least as i understand from the FAQ?
[13:08] <ogra> i just tried it on vbox, will post instructions after the meeting (currently ubuntu-mobile meeting is held in #ubuntu-meeting, feel free to join)
[13:08] <persia> LjL: There isn't.  The ubuntu-mobile.img file should boot in any environment, although you may need to convert it to a native format for VMWare.
[13:08] <LjL> oh, i guess i joined here at the wrong time to ask questions then ;) yeah, i'll join, thanks
[13:08] <persia> Alternately, you can dd it to a USB drive, and boot off that, if VMWare supports that.
[13:09] <LjL> persia: if it's not an *installation* image, but a *runtime* image, then i guess it's fine with me
[13:09] <persia> LjL: It's *both*
[13:09] <ogra> its a live system
[13:09] <ogra> with install option :)
[13:09] <LjL> hm, but i guess no direct write support, just like an Ubuntu CD?
[13:09] <ogra> you could even boot your laptop or desktop from it right away ;)
[13:10] <ogra> yup
[13:10] <LjL> well, i guess it's a start anyway
[13:10] <ogra> we use the same tools to create it ... 
[13:10] <LjL> it's mostly for having my parents try out a "netbook" environment before they buy one
[13:12] <ogra> it should be perferc to try out, though its focused on touchscreens, so the UI will look a bit clunky (thumb sized ui elements etc)
[13:12] <persia> LjL: There's nothing for purchase based on that environment: it may be different, unless you're planning to reinstall.
[13:12] <persia> ogra: It looks/works great for clamshells with touchpads.
[13:12] <LjL> persia, well, reinstalling is most definitely an option, unless it turns out that the default OS of the netbook we buy is fine with us
[13:13] <LjL> in any case, i'm familiar with ubuntu so i'd rather play with an ubuntu based system for a start
[13:13] <ogra> well, lets put it this way: it wouldnt be my peronal taste on a netbook
[13:13] <ogra> :)
[13:13] <persia> ogra: Fine.  I like it.
[13:13] <persia> LjL: Ubuntu Mobile is just a slightly different package selection and some theme changes: it ought be a safe base for any adjustments you want to make.
[13:14] <ogra> yeah
[13:15] <LjL> how does it compare (as in substantial differences, not as in "which is better") with other netbook/"eee" distributions of ubuntu of which there seems to be a proliferation, if i may ask?
[13:15] <persia> LjL: It's the "official" one :)  Whether it's the best is harder to say (I've not used the others).
[13:15] <persia> More than anything, it's close to the Ubuntu Desktop.
[13:16] <LjL> so probably fewer adjustments than most of the others, but just what really needs to be changed for a small device, and possibly more geared towards devices providing a touchscreen?
[13:17] <LjL> by the way, i'm around for many hours to come, you don't all need to reply immediately to stuff i say since you're in the middle of a meeting ;)
[13:19] <ogra> we love multitasking :)
[13:19] <ogra> but great to hear you will stay :)
[13:21] <LjL> do i get ubuntu-mobile.img (as opposed to ubuntu-mid.img, i suppose) from ogra's pages - which appears to be the only place i can find it?
[13:21] <ogra> no
[13:21] <ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mobile/intrepid/current/
[13:21] <ogra> i am about to blog about the new location ... (after the meeting :) )
[13:22] <LjL> ah. you might want to tweak https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile about it
[13:22] <LjL> the FAQ point to that page and to the MID page, but then both link to the MID download
[13:23] <ogra> thanks !, i forgot about that 
[13:59] <persia> ogra: It's actually *trivial* to preseed extra stuff into sources.list, but it's *bad* and *wrong*, as we discovered for hardy.
[13:59] <persia> The reasons not to do it are legion,  On the other hand, having instructions on the wiki is merely not ideal, but at least works.
[13:59] <ogra> you cant preseed it, it would break on network connected installs as it would try to pull from there 
[13:59] <ogra> PPAs are not signed
[14:00] <ogra> so you get probs here 
[14:00] <ogra> it would have to happen after install with a displayed note 
[14:00] <lool> ogra: Signing ppas doesn't solve much unfortunately
[14:01] <lool> ogra: But they might get signed /any time/ soon :)
[14:01] <ogra> haha
[14:01]  * ogra lives next to the birthplace of brothers grimm ... 
[14:01]  * ogra knows about fairy tales
[14:03] <persia> ogra: There are also ways around unsigned repos (and no, I'm not going to share), but the problem is inherently that it's not Ubuntu anymore.
[14:03] <ogra> i would leave it unsigned, but have a sources.list entry ...
[14:03] <ogra> u-m or g-a-i will show a proper warning with that 
[14:04] <ogra> it just saves the user one step
[14:04] <ogra> but i think its impossible to set up properly without a lot gross hackery
[14:05] <ogra> was just a brainfart ...
[14:05] <persia> Well, it's possible, but not pleasant.  Better to add a wiki page if anyone ports psb to X 1.5.
[14:05] <persia> Let's hope for upstream support for Jaunty.
[14:05] <ogra> well, worst case that would be intel
[14:05] <ogra> so we could provide a backported package in PPA at least
[14:06] <persia> Well, no, that's not the worst case.  The worst case is if I try to do it.
[14:06] <ogra> doit :)
[14:06] <persia> No, that's the worst case.  I'd be surprised if the result even worked for me, except in my febrile imagination.
[14:07] <ogra> i'd do it if i had real HW for it 
[14:07] <ogra> though probably steve sends me the device he talked about
[14:07] <persia> The best case is if it goes upstream, and someone who actually knows X and drm provides a PPA for it.  It can't be backported without *immense* effort, and will likely break other things.
[14:08] <persia> Yeah.  The SC has psb.  Nice little lappy, that one.
[14:08]  * ogra saw a video
[14:08] <ogra> though its still way bigger than my n800 with freedom kbd 
[14:09] <persia> It definitely has the smallest 7" sceeen I've seen: it feels more like 6, until you compare it with other devices.  Almost 0 border plastic.
[14:09] <persia> The keyboard is a little cramped though, and it's designed for desktop typing, so that's the worst of both worlds.
[14:10] <ogra> hey, the Q1 sees the freedom kbd 
[14:10] <ogra> but tries to open nautilus for it ???
[14:10]  * ogra shakes head
[14:10] <ogra> our bluez implementation *really* sucks
[14:12] <persia> BlueZ 3.x in intrepid doesn't support keyboards.  Even if you can pair, you can't type.  Even if you try to do it manually, rather than using bluez-gnome.
[14:12] <ogra> asac, so could we just do a build1 upload of midbrowser ? that would get me working images today
[14:12] <ogra> (i'm fine to do that)
[14:12] <persia> This is even true with crevette's updated bluez-gnome 0.28.
[14:12] <asac> ogra: you can git export from the git tree and upload that
[14:13] <asac> ogra: you could also just bump the version
[14:13] <ogra> asac, the latter was my plan
[14:13] <ogra> oh, you mean wihout buildX suffix
[14:13] <asac> ogra: there is -3 in git
[14:14] <asac> ogra: -2 what is in archive
[14:14] <asac> apparently -3 wasnt uploaded
[14:14] <ogra> url ? 
[14:15] <LjL> ogra: the image booted fine in vbox, after converting with vditool dd (extremely slow, but i guess that's vbox's fault)
[14:16] <ogra> the video driver is vesa by default, it sucks
[14:16] <asac> ogra: you think you can do that? :)
[14:16] <ogra> but to see once it it works
[14:16] <asac> ogra: its just exporting the intrepid branch from  http://git.moblin.org/repos/?p=projects/mobile-browser.git
[14:16] <rhp_> Guys: after killing X, what is the way to start X again? /etc/init.d/gdm start gave me error message. Should I use startx instead?
[14:16] <LjL> ogra: no but i'm talking about boot time
[14:16] <ogra> asac, no idea, cant tell if i dont try i guess ... my only fear is that my name sticks in the changelog then :P
[14:17] <asac> ogra: no thats all done
[14:17] <asac> ogra: you just need to sponsor for me
[14:17] <asac> i am in the -3 changelog
[14:17] <asac> its "officially" released
[14:17] <ogra> phew
[14:17] <asac> just noone came around to upload
[14:17] <ogra> :)
[14:17] <asac> 2008-09-11 Alexander Sack * RELEASE 0.3.0release-3 to ubuntu/intrepid  intrepid
[14:17] <asac> thats the changelog upload
[14:17] <asac> so debuild -S -kogra@ubunt
[14:17] <asac> and go
[14:17] <asac> ;)
[14:17] <ogra> ok, i'll try my git foo
[14:17] <ogra> pftt debuild ...
[14:18]  * ogra is dpkg-buildpackage user :)
[14:18] <ogra> all this newish stuff ...
[14:18] <asac> ogra: yeah i used that for brevity ;)
[14:21] <asac> ogra: do you still need the hildon menu/integration?
[14:22] <ogra> -mid needs it i guess
[14:22] <ogra> in -mobile its rather not so great
[14:29] <persia> rhp_: If you've gdm, you want to stop before you start.  If you're using MID, you want sudo session stop; sudo session start
[14:30] <persia> LjL: The image boot is fairly slow, in part because it's a live image.  Once installed, it's faster.  If you're installing with vbox, you'd need to have the image be the secondary disk, and the target be the primary disk.
[14:31] <ogra> persia, the use is also massively slow due to vesa
[14:31] <ogra> installed or not doesnt matter 
[14:31] <persia> Well, yeah, that too, but boot *especially* so.
[14:32]  * ogra didnt find the boot particulary slow though
[14:33] <persia> Oh.  I find *all* the live image boots frustratingly slow, regardless of environment.  It's all the setup: takes well over a minute for me.
[14:33] <ogra> wow
[14:34] <LjL> i also can't get the browser to start apparently
[14:34] <ogra> my vbox is up in about 40sec
[14:34] <ogra> LjL, yup, we just discussed that above
[14:34] <ogra> it needs a fresh upload
[14:34] <ogra> i'll try to get to it today
[14:35] <persia> ogra: Your *virtual* is up in 40 seconds!  It takes longer than that for me with real hardware.
[14:35] <ogra> heh
[14:35] <ogra> it takes longer on the Q1 for me as well
[14:36] <ogra> around a minute
[14:36] <persia> Maybe just something with prefetching the image into memory.
[14:37] <ogra> i guess its an issue with the usb key speed
[14:37] <persia> Could be that as well, and then it boots faster off a hard drive.
[14:47] <ian_brasil> just tried ubuntu-mobile on an asus eeepc 900 ..it flies..i opened gimp open office and midbrowser all at the same time no problem
[14:48] <ian_brasil> a few comments..how do you set a proxy on midbrowser..if it is using the system proxy settings that is not the most obvious IMO
[14:49] <persia> ian_brasil: MIDbrowser is working for you!  Are you using ogra's image, or a daily?
[14:49] <ian_brasil> I downloaded the latest image last night from ogra
[14:50] <ian_brasil> wifi seems not to be working too
[14:50] <ian_brasil> i think it is missing a module
[14:50] <ogra> ian_brasil, thats not the latest :)
[14:50] <ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mobile/intrepid/current/
[14:50] <ogra> thats the latest
[14:51] <ogra> the one on people.u.c is abotu a week old
[14:51] <ogra> but beware, the browser is broken
[14:51] <ian_brasil> ogra: strange, the browser seems ok
[14:52] <persia> WiFi shouldn't be missing a module, although you might need to add it manually (there should be an option to add drivers under System/Administration somewhere)
[14:52] <ogra> did you get it from cdimage ? 
[14:52] <persia> Setting the proxy should be system/preferences/network proxy (or soemthing like that)
[14:53]  * ogra fixes the download link on people.u.c
[14:55]  * ian_brasil looks for the download link
[14:55] <persia> By "fix" do you mean "point at the dailies" ?
[14:55] <persia> ian_brasil: http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mid/intrepid/current/
[14:56] <ian_brasil> ubuntu-mid?
[14:56] <ogra> heh
[14:57] <ogra> http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-mobile/intrepid/current/
[14:57] <ogra> persia, right
[14:57] <persia> ian_brasil: Sorry.  Typo.
[14:57] <persia> ubuntu-mobile
[14:57] <ian_brasil> ok
[14:57] <ogra> there are various improvements since the first image
[14:59] <ian_brasil> excellent...but the image I downloaded is really good..i am very impressed
[15:01] <ian_brasil> ogra: the browser is broken on the new images
[15:02] <ian_brasil> ?
[15:02] <ogra> yep
[15:03] <ogra> needs a rebuild
[15:03] <ogra> great that i managed to impress you  :) 
[15:03]  * ogra wonders what people will say in jaunty if all the little annoyances are worked out :)
[15:06] <ogra> heh, my answer to marios bluetooth mail did its duty :)
[15:07]  * ogra is impressed that shocking people often works best to draw attention to a topic :)
[15:08] <persia> Indeed.  I'm surprised the current state lasted so long.
[15:11] <lool> persia: Bah, bochs doesn't allow anything else than "first hard disk" in the CMOS settings
[15:11] <ogra> bochs ? 
[15:11] <ogra> heh
[15:12] <ogra> you could try dosbox as well :P
[15:12] <lool> wah the !! is quite confusing: if (!!(inb_cmos(0x2d) & 0x20) ^ (seq_nr == 1))
[15:14] <persia> lool: Yeah,  Hence the release note.
[15:35]  * lool is installing in kvm with the hope to not corrupt this time around
[15:37] <persia> lool: What did you do that you expect will solve it?
[15:40] <lool> Ah no space left on device
[15:40] <persia> Pity.  I'd love to have something useful to tell KVM users other than "don't click Install".
[15:43] <lool> Still properly selects the good hard disk
[15:44] <persia> What? Which is the good disk?
[15:48] <lool> The first one
[15:48] <lool> I have the qemu/kvm target hard disk as hda, am booting the .img as hdb
[15:48] <lool> install proceeds on hda
[15:48] <lool> I hope grub gets installed on hdb
[15:49] <persia> Hrm?  grub should always get installed on hda.
[15:49] <lool> That's good
[15:49] <persia> How did you boot it like that?
[15:49] <lool> But I booted on hdb, so I hope grub-installer doesn't opt for that
[15:50] <persia> It's not supposed to.  If it does, I'll want your syslog.
[15:50] <persia> How did you convince kvm to boot off hdb?
[15:51] <lool> I'll tell you if it works
[15:51] <lool> Actually I didn't :-)
[15:51] <lool> But I did tell you
[15:52] <lool> Bah downloading langpacks is sooo long
[15:52]  * lool needs fiber as fast as persia's web access
[15:52]  * persia needs enough hours in the day to be able to have enough attention to remember things lool says so they don't need to be repeated.
[15:53] <persia> And if you want fast fibre, all you have to do is move to Korea or Japan.
[15:54] <lool> persia: Does it happen to you with mobile that the screensaver turns the screen black and it wakes up for no apparent reason?
[15:54] <lool> Happens on my Q1
[15:54] <ian_brasil> we have a lot of fibre here but unfortunately not the optical kind
[15:54] <persia> Happens for me with intrepid desktop
[15:55] <lool> ian_brasil: You should do IP over cow
[15:55] <persia> heh
[15:55] <lool> What happens if I "ignore" the langpack install?  Will it fail the install?
[15:55] <lool> I really need a transparent web proxy
[15:55]  * ian_brasil was pleased with the 1.5 day ubuntu-mobile download
[15:56] <persia> No, it just doesn't install the langpacks.  You can skip that step.
[15:56] <lool> ian_brasil: I hope you'll rsync the next one
[15:56] <persia> 1.5 *days*!  Oh my.
[15:56] <ian_brasil> pleased that there was no power outage during that time
[15:56] <lool> It took me almost a day to download an USB key image from another Canonical team as well
[15:57] <lool> "Running update-grub"
[15:57] <persia> Hrm.  I get annoyed when it takes more than 20 minutes.
[15:57] <ian_brasil> persia: everythin here is measured in days
[15:57] <lool> downloading some stuff *sigh*
[15:58] <persia> ian_brasil: Probably gives you a better pace of life, actually.  Here, I can barely have a drink during the download, whereas you get to do such exotic things as sleep :)
[16:00] <ian_brasil> and it makes it like christmas when (if) it finished..i have been showing off the image to everyone..with very postive responses i might add
[16:03] <lool> Cool, no image corruption
[16:05] <ogra-maemo> yay
[16:05] <ogra-maemo> proper typing on the n800
[16:06] <lool> persia: So I used isolinux
[16:06] <lool> That allows booting of second hard disk
[16:06] <persia> Interesting.  Does that break the image for normal use cases?
[16:07] <persia> Can it be scripted: users could generate the target image for KVM based on the distributed image.
[16:07] <lool> persia: I don't understand either of the questions, give me 30 seconds to publish the script to create the iso
[16:09] <persia> That answers the second question, and I can read the script to answer the first :)
[16:11] <lool> persia: So, I'm pushing to mobile-scripts
[16:11] <lool> persia: I use it with -cdrom
[16:11] <lool> cdrom has lower precedence than -hda
[16:11] <lool> so if you have kvm -m 512 -cdrom ~/generic-iso/isolinux.iso -hda hda.img -hdb ubuntu-mobile.img
[16:11] <lool> It will boot on isolinux because hda fails
[16:11] <lool> (if hda is a qemu-img blank image)
[16:12] <lool> isolinux will offer to boot from either the first hard disk or the second
[16:12] <lool> (I need help on this part, but let's discuss later)
[16:12] <persia> And then isolinux reboots with hdb, and life is good.  That makes the writing of the notes easy.  Thanks.
[16:12] <lool> then isolinux chainsload hdb
[16:12] <lool> when you're done installing and reuse the same command line, hda works
[16:12] <lool> I checked and neither hdb nor the .iso are corrupted
[16:13] <lool> Now the part I need help with
[16:13] <lool> We don't actually care about allowing to boot from the first hard disk
[16:13] <lool> (from syslinux)
[16:13] <lool> Should I change the script to only allow booting from second hard disk and do that immediately without prompting?
[16:14] <lool> I find the current script and resulting iso for universally useful, but perhaps we should really create a "boot from second hard disk".iso
[16:19] <persia> I prefer some flexibility: there may be users who want to test in more complex virtual environments.
[16:19] <lool> Obviously this could be extended for more hard disks, but I didn't try it out
[16:19] <lool> persia: So what do you think of this workaround?  Did you start writing some release notes?
[16:23] <persia> I think it's a *great* workaround.  I haven't started writing any notes.  I'll be adding this when I do write some.
[16:23] <lool> Oh sorry, I broke the script when I added it to mobile-scripts
[16:24] <ogra-maemo> you should put it on the wiki as well, for people not wanting to use bzr
[16:24] <lool> fixed
[16:26] <lool> http://people.ubuntu.com/~lool/isolinux.iso
[16:26] <lool> ogra-maemo: I think it's best to publish the iso
[16:26] <ogra-maemo> oh, k
[16:26] <lool> adventurous people can use the script
[16:26] <ogra-maemo> i thought you wanted to give the scriupt to people
[16:27] <lool> No, the iso
[16:27] <persia> The ISO lets people do the right thing.  I'll definitely download and test, but not soon, as it's getting quite late.
[16:28] <lool> I mean people are welcome to use the script to build a more complete iso, but to solve the problem of installing in kvm, the iso is enough
[16:28]  * ogra-maemo wonders if that works as well in vbox
[16:29] <ogra-maemo> i assume it should though
[16:29] <ogra-maemo> hey, that kbd is fun 
[16:30] <ogra-maemo> (apart from the missing alt key)
[16:33] <persia> ogra: Please test.  If we can use the same procedure for both vbox and KVM, it makes it an easier message to send.
[16:33] <ogra-maemo> i will
[16:35] <lool> It most probably does
[16:37] <lool> ogra-maemo: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mobile-meta/+bug/274838 can be closed I guess
[16:39] <persia> Indeed it can.  Please close it.
[16:40] <lool> amitk_: I'm fix releasing #264048 for linux-lpia; I added a linux task and fix committed it; can you close in debian/changelog?
[16:40] <persia> bug #264048
[16:41] <persia> Oh, right.
[16:41] <ian_brasil> using the usb key i shut down and at the prompt i hit enter ...the screen goes black but the machine remains on and i have to shut down by pressing the button...shall i file a bug?
[16:44] <amitk_> lool: I thought I already added it to debian/changelog
[16:44] <ogra-maemo> lool, indeed
[16:44] <lool> amitk_: doesn't appear in the linux-lpia page
[16:45] <lool> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-lpia
[16:46] <ogra-maemo> ian_brasil, that ¨feature¨ was disabled in the official image
[16:46] <ogra-maemo> if zou see it there as well, yes, file it
[16:47] <amitk_> lool: aaah. I added it to the linux changelog
[16:47] <lool> amitk_: That's fine now
[16:47] <lool> It will close the new task
[16:49] <persia> ian_brasil: That's a bug.  Please include as much information about the hardware as possible, as it is likely caused by a failure to perform a clean ACPI powerdown.
[16:49] <ian_brasil> persia;ok, will do
[16:50] <persia> And, yes, we turned off the "Press Enter to continue" prompt, but that shoudn't affect whether the machine shuts down.
[16:55] <ian_brasil> persia: what command can i execute on the eeepc to get this info?
[16:56] <lool> persia: I sent instructions to the list; feel free to copy-paste or reword for the release notes
[16:56]  * persia looks rapidly about for someone who knows more about ACPI
[16:56] <persia> lool: Thank you.
[16:57] <lool> ian_brasil: Try updating your BIOS?
[17:06] <lool> persia: Oh another thing I'm taking help on is the ONERROR thing in syslinux; I don't know why, but it's not working when the BIOS fails to boot the first disk
[17:06] <lool> I'd love the iso to try disk 1 and automatically skip to disk 2, but that doesn't work
[17:07] <lool> I don't know whether control returns to isolinux when 0x80 fails
[17:12] <persia> lool: From my reading of the documentation, ONERROR only allows appending to the kernel command line, rather than changing it.
[17:13] <persia> Or rather, prepending.
[17:14] <lool> persia: I think the issue is triggerred only when the files aren't found
[17:14] <lool> I tried finding an alternate fallback mechanism, but didn't see one
[17:14] <lool> If you do...
[17:15] <persia> I'll add looking to my list, but suspect it will be at least a couple days before I get very far.
[17:17] <lool> Just nice to have
[17:17] <persia> Yeah, but what you've already done is a *big* step towards reducing my concerns about the current images.  Thanks for that.
[17:22] <lool> Happy that it did
[17:36] <ogra> woah, that midbrowser cloning takes a century
[17:37]  * ogra wonders who said bzr was slow
[17:39] <persia> ogra: It's a comparison thing.  For me, bzr is slower than http, so I call it slow.  That doesn't mean it's slower than other tools.
[17:40] <ogra> its running since 30min now
[17:40] <ogra> still recieving stuff
[17:44] <lool> ogra: You're going to have some hundreds of MBs on your disk
[17:44] <lool> That's MB, not MiB  :)
[17:44] <ogra> heh
[17:45] <ogra> i hope my diskspace is enough for that 
[17:45] <ogra>  my /home is wuite full
[17:45] <ogra> *quite
[17:46] <lool> ogra: I think you saw http://people.ubuntu.com/~lool/popup-no-win-decorations.png already
[17:46] <lool> As an illustration of the need for win decorations
[17:47] <lool> ogra: I think it's like 500 or 600 MB
[17:47] <lool> Perhaps once built
[17:47] <ogra> well, if compiz is enabled you have a pretty shadow around it
[17:47] <ogra> its only relevant in metacity
[17:47] <lool> It's not
[17:47] <ogra> ??
[17:47] <lool> kvm
[17:48] <ogra> yeah, kvm = no compisite
[17:48] <ogra> *composite
[17:48] <ogra> so the image uses metacity
[17:48] <lool> Yeah, and popups are really awful like this
[17:48] <ogra> with compiz you have a roper drop shadow 
[17:48] <ogra> *proper
[17:48] <lool> I'm not sure it's enough
[17:48] <ogra> try it on the Q1
[17:49] <lool> I have it installed with mobile
[17:49] <persia> ogra: Is there a way to hint it to look OK also in metacity?
[17:49] <ogra> if i have any kind of window frames (which i dont atm) i need to develop a theme as well, the current themes are not finger friendly
[17:49]  * persia turns off compiz as the first step on any install
[17:49] <ogra> persia, not an easy one
[17:49] <persia> Bother.
[17:50] <ogra> but i will look into it
[17:50]  * lool has headache and goes taking a shower &
[18:05] <ogra-maemo> sigh, still cloning
[18:05] <ogra-maemo> bad git
[18:06] <ian_brasil> trying to work out how the eepc/asus get to boot so quickly..i think it boots straight to hibernate..is this possible as it sounds crazy
[18:07] <persia> It is possible to ship a device in a hibernated state, and label hibernate "shutdown".  No idea if that was what was done, but it certainly would increase percieved boot speed.
[18:09] <ogra-maemo> ian_brasil, you mean in the tyoutube video ?
[18:10] <ogra-maemo> i.e. the five second boot thing ?
[18:13] <ian_brasil> i didnt know about the you tube video but i think shipping in hibernate is what has been done
[18:14] <ian_brasil> and it definitely has a wow factor so are there any downsides is the next issue
[18:15] <ogra-maemo> well, for that video they patched out 60%T of the kernel source and made the kernel monoilithic
[18:15] <ogra-maemo> its cheating as much as you even can
[18:17] <ian_brasil> would data loss be possible with a boot to hibernate?..i imagine if you changed the booting kernel it would but dont think your soccer mum will de doing that
[18:17] <lool> That gets rejected, you can't resume from it
[18:22] <ian_brasil> lool: cant you just resume from the hibernate file..maybe i didnt understand something here
[18:23] <ogra-maemo> you would have to make sure it actually reboots after a kernel replacement
[18:30] <ian_brasil> or it uses uswsusp which quickly restors from RAM if possible, but if the battery fails the machine can  be restored from disk file
[18:31] <lool> I wonder why I don't have uswsusp anymore
[18:32] <ogra> lucky you
[18:32] <ogra> it breaks the world
[18:32] <ogra> its supposed to be removed from the archive completely right after beta
[18:44] <ogra-maemo> currently it breaks gpm
[18:44] <ogra-maemo> not sure if you tried to suspend your Q1 yet
[18:49] <ian_brasil> the eepc must be doing this..there is a partition unaccessible from mount which seems to mirror the main from power shutdown to a complete desktop is 15 secondse
[18:51]  * ogra is lost with midbrowser 
[18:51] <ogra> how the heck do i build it 
[18:51] <ogra> there is no debian dir
[19:02] <ogra> asac, ^^^ ?
[19:03] <ogra> is just copying the debian dir from the package into the tree enough ? 
[19:03] <ogra> (since its native)
[19:03] <lool> ogra: use the intrepid branch
[19:04] <ogra> oh, sigh
[19:04] <ogra> i indeed checked out the wrong thing
[19:04] <ogra> gah
[19:06] <lool> ogra: It's ok
[19:06] <lool> You have it all
[19:06] <lool> Just checkout -b :)
[19:07] <ogra> oh mn, git is such a pain
[19:07] <lool> ogra: git checkout -b intrepid origin/intrepid
[19:07] <lool> Not sure about the exact name
[19:08] <ogra> argh, how do i somethign lije bzr revert *
[19:08] <ogra> *like
[19:08] <lool> git reset --hard HEAD
[19:08] <asac> ogra: intrepid branch
[19:09] <asac> yeah
[19:11] <ogra> fatal: A branch named 'intrepid' already exists.
[19:11] <ogra> hmm
[19:11] <ogra> but it created a debian dir
[19:11] <asac> ogra: if its exists you need to say
[19:11] <asac> git checkout intrepid
[19:11] <lool> git checkout intrepid
[19:11]  * lool hugs asac
[19:12] <ogra> Already on "intrepid"
[19:12] <ogra> :P
[19:12] <asac> also you probably dont want to build that directoy, but use git export ... something
[19:12] <ogra> silly git
[19:12] <asac> hmm
[19:12] <lool> If you debuild -i -I it should be fine
[19:12] <asac> yeah use that
[19:12] <asac> git export appears to not exist ;)
[19:12] <lool> git-archive
[19:13] <asac> yay
[19:13] <ogra> sigh
[19:13] <ogra> what a silly silly tool
[19:13] <asac> everyone else says the same about bzr ;)
[19:13] <asac> like gnash people that fight with branch formats ;)
[19:13] <ogra> pfft 
[19:14] <asac> which is actually the truth. bzr _must_ settle on a branch/repo format ... cant be true that you cannot use your tree with a bzr that is 1.5 years old :)
[19:16] <ogra> mumble ... needs xulrunner-1.9-dev installed 
[19:16]  * ogra installs
[19:16]  * lool suggests pdebuild --debbuildopts -I to ogra
[19:17] <ogra> grr
[19:17] <ogra> needs /usr/share/mozilla-devscripts/lp-locale-export.mk
[19:17]  * ogra digs
[19:18] <ogra> yay, that looks better
[19:19] <ogra> E: midbrowser_0.3.0release-3_source.changes: bad-distribution-in-changes-file intrepid
[19:19] <ogra> WHAT ? 
[19:19] <ogra> silly 
[19:20] <ogra> i'm building *on* intrepid you silly thing
[19:20] <lool> Nobody ever touches lintian in Ubuntu by fear of having to merge it forever after :-)
[19:20] <ogra> heh
[19:24] <ian_brasil> /dev/sda1 has 2GB and /dev/sda2 1.5GB ..after boot that is /dev/sda1 qith 1.5GB and cannot see /dev/sda2 
[19:24] <ian_brasil> s/qith/with
[19:26] <venome> ian_brasil: what does `sudo fdisk -l` say?
[19:27] <venome> ﻿ ian_brasil: sry, it won't be there as well ...
[19:28] <ian_brasil> i found it
[19:28] <venome> ﻿ ian_brasil: in fdisk?
[19:28] <ian_brasil> /etc/initramfs-tools/conf.d
[19:28] <ian_brasil> there is a resume file
[19:29] <venome> :)
[19:29] <venome> ok
[19:29] <ogra> thats only a configuration
[19:29] <ogra> should contain a uuid
[19:29] <ogra> for your swap partition
[19:29] <ian_brasil> ogra: but this specifies the UUID to resume from 
[19:39] <lool> ogra: Do you know whether with the kernel model we have any tool which can simply save an hibernate image without actually hibernating?
[19:40] <ogra> hmm, not of the top of my head, but i can find out
[19:41]  * ogra test installs midbrowser
[19:42] <ogra> yay, works
[19:42]  * ogra uploads
[19:43] <ogra> fun, 45M ...
[19:43] <lool> Yeah
[19:45] <ogra> hmm, is it because i used the n800 for some days or is it really a lot smoother in scrolling now 
[19:58]  * persia finally determines the cause and solution for bug #277225
[20:16] <ogra> hmm, no luck on the Q1 with the new bluez stuff
[20:16] <persia> No?  It worked for me on the SR and the D4.  I haven't tried on the Y7 mostly because I fear breaking something, and use the Y7 all the time.
[20:17] <persia> Which device doesn't work, and how?
[20:17] <ogra> nothing works
[20:17] <ogra> i dont even see my mobile phone
[20:18] <ogra> i cant change visibility either
[20:20] <ogra> oh, heh, apt-get upgrade didnt really pull in everything
[20:23] <ogra> hmm, actullally it wants to remove more than it installs, hmm
[20:25] <ogra> hmm, now the applet is gone completely 
[20:32] <ogra> hmm., the packages conflict
[20:32] <ogra> and i have constant crashers of the daemon
[20:37] <ian_brasil> fwiw i just found out that the N8* uses a similar system of boot to hibernate using a modified (proprietary i think)  bootloader which pulls the kernel into RAM
[20:38] <ogra> the n8x0 is arm
[20:38] <ogra> that works totally differnt to x86
[20:38] <ogra> you can actually power off a lot more there
[20:39] <ian_brasil> ogra: right, but the concept of a boot to hibernate state is not so crazy is what i wanted to discover
[20:39] <persia> ian_brasil: It's not crazy, as long as you don't update your kernel or modules: that requires a real reboot.
[20:41] <ian_brasil> boot time is a real big issue..with ogras suggestion we got the 500Mhz Geode from 5 mins down to 50 seconds
[20:42] <ian_brasil> but it needs to be lower so maybe this is a solution
[20:44] <persia> Yeah.  I don't really like the definition of "boot time" as a metric.  I prefer "Time to use".  On my Zaurus, I think I actually rebooted only a couple times a year.
[20:46] <ian_brasil> the worst thing about it is that it is the first thing the client sees so it sets off the 'pitch the system for more dev money' meetings off to a bad start
[20:55] <persia> ian_brasil: Only if you display it.  Walk in with a hibernated system, and show off a 2-second to working environment, and you'll wow the client.
[20:55] <persia> That "working environment" only needs to have refreshed the last state of the screen: you have a few more seconds to make things work while the user recovers from the "instant on" effect.
[20:56] <persia> At least on my Zaurus, it took an extra couple seconds before I could scroll or anything, but most of the time I just wanted to get back to my book, or look at the last state of my Sudoku puzzle.
[20:59] <ian_brasil> persia: ha ha..well i do not want to be on the customer support lines when it is not 2 secs for joe sixpack to see his desktop when he turns on his new purchase..i would rather ship a hibernate image. Most people have no idea about resume/suspend/hibernate anyway...b.t.w ubuntu-mobile is exactly 2 mins on the eeepc 900 to boot from the stick
[21:00] <persia> Yeah, I think you'll find an actual install (even to another USB stick) faster.
[21:01] <ogra> oh, it doesnt segfailt
[21:01] <persia> OK.  You said segfault.  I can do segfault.  Now you're talking mystery bug, where I'm not so strong.
[21:07] <lool> 'night folks
[21:07] <persia> Good night lool.