[00:00] TheMuso: the problem is, it is an orca or a bluethooth wizard bug [00:00] nxvl: I'd say the latter. [00:01] Ok, so I choose forward in the wizard, and it asks me for a device to set up, yet there is nothing listed.. Has something gone wrong somewhere. [00:01] heh, kees twittered parts of the conversation [00:01] s/./?/ [00:01] :D [00:02] and this is after a reboot mind you, so everything is running.] [00:04] TheMuso, can this be caused by the translation system in use for the wizard? [00:04] superm1: I wouldn't think so, but am unsure. [00:05] TheMuso, the source is pretty small for that wizard (single file), in ./wizard/main.c [00:05] TheMuso, so if you've seen this happen before and recognize it [00:05] superm1: I haven't seen it, but I'll have a dig. [00:05] The preferences applet is also not entirely accessble, in that the device visability doesn't appear to be available in the tab order. [00:05] visability [00:05] visibility damn typing [00:06] nxvl: cjwatson totally cracked me up on the corkscrew quote. [00:06] kees: heh [00:06] :D [00:06] been there [00:06] superm1: okay, i've successfully associated both my treo and a wireless headset via bluetooth [00:07] superm1: i'm trying to do something useful with that now..... [00:07] ok I have set my notebook bluetooth to always be visible, yet my phone can't find it. [00:08] i used the bluetooth-applet to send a simple test.txt file to my phone, and the phone turned on, like it was going to do something, but nothing happened [00:08] TheMuso, it might not be offering a service your phone knows how to interact iwht [00:09] cody-somerville: Right. [00:09] i also paired my BT headset, and expected to see new alsa devices [00:09] not yet, though [00:10] on the bluetooth-applet preferences page, what's the blue "i" information looking icon do? [00:14] kirkland, you wont see a new alsa device [00:14] hrm ok trying to run hcitool scan gives me a connection timed out, even though there is a device in range thats visible. [00:14] superm1: okay, how can i test something useful, now that i've paired a couple of devices? [00:15] kirkland, so audio devices, aplay -D headset FILE [00:15] headset is the name of the device made by the ALSA plugin that isn't enumerated [00:15] TheMuso, multiple scans back to back will cause that i believe [00:15] superm1: this is the first one after a fresh reboot [00:15] TheMuso, then your bluetooth device might need to be reset [00:16] a lot do (this means a small kernel quirk is necessary too) [00:16] right [00:16] hcitool reset should do the trick i think [00:16] ok will try that in a sec. [00:16] superm1: where do i find that device name? [00:16] kirkland, for sending it to your phone, your phone needs to be expecting the transfer generally [00:16] kirkland, that "is" the device name [00:16] headset [00:17] it's hardcoded in /usr/share/alsa/bluetooth.conf [00:17] hrm, that's not working [00:17] slangasek: Riddell told me to go ahead with upload, I guess he was going to grant FFe. As for the LP bugs, I have to have a talk with upstream about bugs affecting ubuntu packages and bugs affecting upstream projects, but yes, in general closing them in the changelog would have been healthy ;-) [00:17] superm1: what referrs to /usr/share/alsa/bluetooth.conf in terms of making sure that file gets included? [00:18] TheMuso, /usr/share/alsa/alsa.conf [00:18] superm1: okay, i gotta run... i'll be back online later tonight and try some more [00:18] superm1: ah. [00:18] TheMuso, alsa-lib was one of the patched apps on the PPA [00:18] well I didn't get it. [00:19] Ah I know why, I am running a test version of libasoudn2. [00:19] TheMuso, should have seen 1.0.17a-0ubuntu4~ppa1 [00:19] libasound2 [00:19] ah there you go [00:20] Yeah testing a fix that I will be likely uploading in the next day or so. [00:23] superm1: hrm ok, a hcitool reset made no difference. still connection timeout for hcitool scan, and it also seems looking more closely that I can't set the visibility in the preferences... [00:23] I haven't tried any of this with the old stack either, so wasn't sure if it was working prior to this or not. [00:23] TheMuso, do you have a tray icon present? [00:23] superm1: Yes. [00:23] TheMuso, hum. if you want to look a little closer, try stopping the service and running sudo bluetoothd -nd [00:24] you can see if there are errors from the daemon [00:24] superm1: ok. [00:26] bluetoothd[7370]: Can't set link policy on hci0: Device or resource busy (16) [00:26] bluetoothd[7368]: Can't read class of adapter on /org/bluez/hci0: Input/output error (5) [00:26] TheMuso, that would sound to me like problems directly with your device then [00:26] TheMuso, there is a handful of quirks to experiment with btusb (see modinfo btusb) [00:26] superm1: Right. What device nodes are usually used? USB nodes directly? [00:27] superm1: ok will ahve a play. [00:27] TheMuso, there is no /dev node made afaik. [00:27] right [00:27] (or used for that matter) [00:28] okay i'm taking off for a bit, if you've got some other questions kirkland or TheMuso, feel free to leave some more pings [00:28] ok. [00:29] Aha. Bluetooth mice don't like being paried with two systems at once, it seems :) [00:30] superm1: no prob, i'll be back online around 9 or 10 pm [00:40] Riddell: ping (re: kgrubeditor upload mentioned up there ^^) === lorddarkpat_ is now known as ldp-desk [01:53] bryce: s/Standby/Stand by/ [01:53] slangasek: huh? [01:53] bryce: the xorg patch [01:53] debdiff, rather [01:54] "Standby" is not a verb :) [01:54] still not sure what you're referring to [01:54] bryce: the new zenity line in the just-unblocked xorg upload [01:55] ah, alright I'll put that on my todo to fix [01:55] ok :) [01:55] that's a pretty old patch ;-) [01:55] er old upload [01:56] heh [02:06] slangasek: pushed to git [02:06] ok :) [02:15] you know, there's only one problem in posting the beta in the same calendar month as the final. [02:15] it really is quite poor planning. [02:16] ? [02:17] you can't use up the monthly bandwidth on torrenting, twice. [02:17] oh, yes [02:18] last cycle, i'm fairly sure we had the beta the month before. [02:18] yes, we did; the last Thursday of the month falls late this month [02:18] ahhh [03:08] * jdong caps his ubuntu beta torrents at a more neighbor-friendly 1MB/s [03:09] jdong: i'm jealous. [03:09] you mean your neighbors aren't all torrenting it from you?! [03:09] slangasek: hehe they probably are, but I feel bad for using 7.5MB/s of upstream... [03:17] slangasek: time to take a look at an sru? [03:43] slangasek: if you do, it's vsftpd [03:44] now, I need to get some more sleep during the couple of hours left in the night :) [05:06] bryce: how does it work that xserver-xorg-video-ati adds one patch file and mentions one patch in the changelog, and has three new entries in debian/patches/series? Is this going to FTBFS as soon as I unblock it? :-) [05:07] slangasek: yeah those extra two can be removed. I wasn't able to get validation on them [05:08] bryce: ok; expect build failure mails soon, I guess :) [05:08] although I still think they're good fixes [05:11] slangasek: It might take a while on i386, there's nearly 1,000 builds in the queue [05:11] yeah, but those are langpacks [05:35] slangasek: The firefox3.0 package in Gutsy is not being updated by mozillateam. It's in Universe, so it's not technically required, it is still sitting there with known vulnerabilities. Given the licensing restrictions on Firefox, I do not think that package is supportable by MOTU. What are the odds of getting it removed? [05:39] ScottK: would pulling in 3.0.3 from hardy-updates (as a backport, or just pulling the upstream tarball) not work? That seems straightforward to me and doesn't fall afoul of any license restrictions, assuming those apply to the gutsy version, and as we don't have a general policy of pulling packages post-release (for lack of security support or otherwise), I think that ought to be investigated first [05:40] on a technical level, I'm not sure what it takes to actually get a package removed from the release pocket [05:40] slangasek: jdong said he was going to look into updating the backport in Gutsy. [05:41] So if 3.0.3 is backportable, it's presumably updatable. [05:41] I just don't think it's reasonable to ask MOTU to deal with the Mozilla corp 'mother may I' restrictions. [05:42] That and I find the multiple presentations of the "Known your rights" pop-up annoying, but that's an separate issue. [05:43] I'm not convinced those restrictions are a problem in practice if all we're doing are security updates; but is there something else we should be doing pre-release to ensure we don't wind up with packages in universe for a release that are explicitly unsupported by MOTU? [05:44] slangasek: Fundamentally there is a process for getting patch approval that is not supportable by the general MOTU community. [05:44] I did get a committment from asac to support firefox (the 2.0 one) in Universe for Hardy when it was added back. [05:45] * ScottK goes to look at that one. [05:45] Yep. That one is updated. [05:46] superm1: i'm still struggling to sync my treo via bluetooth [05:46] We did not get a similar agreement on firefox-3.0 in Gutsy since it wasn't added in a FFe period where I had leverage. [05:47] slangasek: We probably ought to remove firefox before Intrepid releases for one thing. [05:47] * ScottK files a bug. [05:47] ScottK: file a bug, subscribe mozilla-team and ubuntu-archive? [05:47] Sure thing. [05:48] It's FTBFS now in any case. [05:48] I'll do something similar on Gutsy for firefox-3.0 [05:57] slangasek: you must know, the actual intrepid's wallpaper is the final one? [05:57] oh, I /must/ know? :-) [05:57] I haven't been told that it isn't final - but that doesn't mean I know that it is :) [05:57] you are the release manager [05:57] :D [05:57] kirkland, what sort of struggles now? [05:57] i hate it :D [05:58] superm1: i'm just trying to sync my treo to my laptop, which I've ***always*** accomplished via dund [05:58] superm1: what is dund's replacement? [05:58] syncing via dund? dund is for creating a dial up connect? [05:58] did dund even work/exist in intrepid? [05:59] superm1: they each get a private ip address, and it syncs [05:59] kirkland, you mean setting up a pan? [05:59] man, bluetooth is the shop of 31 different flavors of crack [05:59] superm1: http://elijah.pinoguin.com/blog/blog-view/article/sync-treo-650-on-ubuntu-linux.html [05:59] kirkland, look at ifconfig pan0 [05:59] superm1: k [05:59] you should have a pan device that you can do such things if you wanted [06:00] slangasek, the biggest problem is that it has changed SO much over the last revisions and no one's documentation accounts for changes from revision to revision [06:00] slangasek: Done in Bug 277401 and Bug 277403. [06:00] Launchpad bug 277401 in firefox "Please remove firefox source and related binaries" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/277401 [06:00] Launchpad bug 277403 in firefox "Firefox-3.0 in Gutsy has multiple open security vulnerabilities and should be updated or removed" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/277403 [06:01] superm1: I was referring to the umpteen bazillion ways to implement syncing [06:06] slangasek: I also subscribed ubuntu-security since ultimately that's the only reason it's a concern. [06:07] ok [06:10] superm1: on the plus side, i was able to send files from my laptop to my palm [06:11] kirkland, if pan0 isn't doing to do the trick, http://wiki.bluez.org/wiki/HOWTO/SerialConnections [06:12] that bottom one is the proper way to generate a new serial device that does dun specifically [06:12] kirkland, very good [06:13] superm1: ooooh, let me try that [06:14] kirkland, and if all else fails, we do have a final alternative to have a bluez-compat package that is not installed by default that provides the legacy dund pand and hidd, but i'm not sure how well they operate with the 4.x stuff [06:17] fglrx not supported in the beta? (selecting it in apt marks xserver-xorg-core as broken) [06:18] * milli noticed fglrx is gone from linux-restricted-modules too [06:19] milli: There was a new X uploaded just after the beta released. Do you have that? [06:19] fglrx is not supported in beta milli [06:20] ScottK: 7.4~2ubuntu5 ? [06:20] superm1: alright. [06:20] bug 247376 [06:20] using radeonhd for the time being, works ok [06:20] Launchpad bug 247376 in ubuntu-release-notes "undefined symbols when trying to load fglrx" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/247376 [06:20] There you go. [06:21] milli, it's completely outside the control of ubuntu developers. AMD has to update fglrx to work with intrepid [06:21] however, I have to keep flashplugin-nonfree at 9.0.124.xxx as the 10.0.1.218.xxx driver sucks all (of one) CPU when flash is active... [06:21] superm1: nod [06:23] superm1: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/53366/ [06:23] superm1: that's running the python script to create the serial device [06:24] milli: There are issues with getting flash updated that are being worked. [06:25] kirkland, hum interesting. it looks like even that document is outdated now [06:25] just thought I'd mention it, even though flashplugin-nonfree is, well, not in main [06:25] i looked at doc/manager-api.txt and it' doesn't mention ActivateService [06:25] superm1: yeah, i'm desperately trying to find the 'right' way to do this [06:25] superm1: i'd hate to fall back on dun, if there's a more modern way [06:26] kirkland, and then "document" said right way :) [06:26] yeah [06:26] superm1: the docs are just lacking [06:27] kirkland, so open up doc/ [06:27] look at serial-api.txt [06:27] superm1: where is this doc? [06:28] kirkland, ah it's not installed in the right binary package [06:28] i'm looking in the source [06:28] oh, okay [06:28] i'll fix that to be installed as part of libbluetooth-dev [06:28] superm1: which source? [06:28] but for now apt-get source bluez [06:30] kirkland, although i'm betting you might be able to just use the same rfcomm stuff that you normally use for the DUN service itself [06:30] like i showed you before [06:30] superm1: i've been trying /dev/rfcomm0 [06:30] superm1: that dev exists [06:30] superm1: perhaps i need to setup that device [06:31] kirkland, /etc/bluetooth/rfcomm.conf [06:32] superm1: yup, that's set up correctly === viviersf{Gone} is now known as viviersf [07:19] TheMuso: you probably ought to look at bug 275233 [07:19] Launchpad bug 275233 in libcanberra "canberra-gtk-play crashed with SIGSEGV in pa_operation_unref()" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/275233 === thegodfather is now known as fabbione [08:24] asac: you should post to upstream projects using your canonical or ubuntu addy [08:24] http://mail.gnome.org/archives/networkmanager-list/2008-October/msg00006.html [08:24] in case somebody decides to parse mailing lists to attack us (ugh) [08:26] Why? If someone has an established identity within a community, is it worth changing that for mail archive scanning trolls? [08:27] Is it not enough that we have an average of about 2 patched packages per active uploader, and try to keep that even lower: that statistic ought speak for itself in terms of pushing upstream. [08:29] persia, er, that we have few packages with changes from upstream does not necessarily sound to me like we're pushing stuff upstream, it might also be that we don't change anything [08:30] liw: Sure, in that case, why complain that we don't push anything. [08:32] persia, since part of the complaint is that Ubuntu doesn't help upstream, saying that we don't have anything to give them isn't really a good defense :) [08:34] liw: It's about positioning. Saying "We're just users: we don't have code. Our role is to provide you with millions of users, and try to filter the bug reports into something you can handle" is a positive statement. Saying "This 500 people wrote these 25,000 lines of code, and these 15,000 were pushed to upstream projects" is a reactive defence. [08:35] Asking other people why they don't have more effective measures in place to coordinate user input might be an interesting counterpoint question. [08:35] Remember, the winner in any debate is usually the speaker who can establish the terms of the debate, rather than the speaker with the strongest arguments or the strongest evidence. [08:36] (also known as the reason no diplomat will either answer a simple question simply, or provide a definitive positive statement about anything : it's just safer that way) [08:41] persia, skipping the meta discussion... I'll just say that I don't think the "We're just users..." thing is a positive statement [08:41] liw: Fair enough. Perhaps this is why I'm not part of the marketing team :) [08:41] :) [08:42] I do agree that anyone relying on e-mail addresses to assign credit to employers is a) [deleted by CoC filter] and b) in need of some statistics tutoring [08:44] But all the cool people are doing it. [08:44] Yeah, but it's durned difficult to find any reliable tool to match employers and email addresses. [08:46] Plus, any claims related to specific employers ignore the fact that the majority of Ubuntu developers aren't employed by the primary sponsor. [08:46] But then how are they going to attack Canonical? [08:49] hmm. upgrading my desktop machine to intrepid just ended in a crash, doesn't even react to ping. the gdm screen is all garbled (I was doing the upgrade via ssh) [08:49] liw: Lovely. What kind of video card? [08:50] something by ATI, iirc [08:50] Ah. Them. [08:50] mine went all screwy with the nvidia drivers for a bit, but i've got it back now with glx enabled [08:52] I doubt it was related to graphics hardware, though, it wasn't updating anything graphics related recently [08:52] also, when I reboot, the kernel can't mount the root fs [08:52] This doesn't exactly sound promising. [08:53] * wgrant has to agree with persia. [08:54] I have an intrepid box, and it runs great. I have a box I reinstall every couple days, and it works pretty good, except that there's no support for the video hardware except with vesa. [08:54] I have a hardy box with LVM and encryption and stuff, and now I'm all worried. [08:57] moving the root disk to another computer (it's a usb stick just for this reason), ext3 finds rahter a large number of unreferenced inodes, hmm [08:57] bah, I just did an install, and stuff's failing because /dev/null is mode 600. [08:57] gdm won't run because of it. [08:58] sbeattie, what, again? how on earth does that bug recur so often [08:58] * persia is surprised that none of these issues were encountered *yesterday* [09:00] persia: no kidding. [09:00] persia, I did upgrade tests yesterday, no problems found... [09:00] Yeah. I know. That's the odd bit. [09:01] liw: know how to solve it? it looks like it's supposed to be set up properly based on /etc/udev/rules.d/40-permissions.rules [09:02] sbeattie, it's a symptom of a number of different problems, historically; there was at least one bug where some postinst script accidentally deleted /dev/null and then the first script to redirect things to /dev/null created a file [09:03] mmm, that's not this situation, it's a character device. [09:03] sbeattie, can you verify that your /dev is really managed by udev? [09:06] hmph, it would have been such a nice solution to my problem if the usb stick was broken, but no, it's good [09:07] and GiBs of disk space [09:07] sbeattie, with "that bug" I actually meant all the bugs that wreck up /dev/null [09:08] oh, the syslog from the crashed machine has fglrx entries as the last thing [09:08] why does it have that? I wasn't using fglrx earlier [09:22] liw: umm, probably not. I somehow have a fake /sbin/start-stop-daemon [09:23] sbeattie, that is very... interesting [09:24] sbeattie: How fake is it? [09:27] wgrant: it's a 3 line shell script that echos that it's a fake script and does nothing. [09:27] sbeattie: Uh... nice. [09:27] sbeattie, that makes me think of something related to automated testing [09:28] or something that builds chroots [09:28] since it can be necessary for those to prevent daemons from being started [09:28] Is there a diversion? [09:28] It should be owned by dpkg. [09:29] that's what dpkg -S claimed, that it was owned by dpkg [09:50] Suggestion: Maybe it's possible to incorperate PowerTOP, LatencyTOP to boost ubuntu's performance === jamesh_ is now known as jamesh [09:53] C0p3rn1c: patches welcome. try elaborating your ideas at http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com [09:54] siretart, I'm really no expert, I was just reading about this amaizing article on slashdot that apparently makes it possible to boot linux in 5 seconds http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/02/1933206 [09:55] C0p3rn1c: powertop is in Ubuntu: you can use it on your own system. That particular machine was hacked in a number of ways, and while the result was linux, it wasn't a full Ubuntu Desktop. [09:56] (and latencytop is in the upcoming Intrepid release) [09:56] ok thats great, thx guys [10:02] Also, I know it's not really your distro but maybe it would be good idea to promote ubuntu ultimate edition a bit more, I imagen this could boost the populairity of linux in general because it's pretty impressive and or "cool" for the recreational linux user [10:07] sbeattie: that sounds like the installer broke halfway through - the installer does that temporarily [10:07] C0p3rn1c: we'd rather improve Ubuntu! :-) [10:10] cjwatson: ubuntu ultimate edition is still ubuntu, they just copy your distro and add popular software in the default install :) [10:12] I know, but we control our default install and should be improving it whenever possible [10:12] and when we think it makes sense [10:12] UUE is pure evil. [10:13] It comes from the creator of Ultamatix, doesn't it? [10:13] also I'm not terribly happy with the implication of the "Ubuntu Ultimate Edition" name [10:13] what is "Ubuntu Ultimate Edition"? [10:13] cjwatson: Neither. [10:14] siretart: http://ultimateedition.info/ [10:14] anyhow, much rather advertise our own product than somebody else's [10:14] siretart: A misleadingly named Ubuntu derivative created by the creator of an Automatix derivative. You can work out the rest. [10:14] wgrant: OMG! [10:14] * siretart runs away. screeming [10:14] ultimate, hmmm, that also mean final ... [10:14] Gutsy Gibson? Is that a guitar? [10:14] hehe [10:16] It also seems that none of UUE's subpage links work. [10:16] I want them powering my distro. [10:16] Maybe UUE is evil, but so is the recreational user, we are all downloading mp3's , illegal movies, etc... [10:16] What does UUE actually do? [10:16] Other than break? [10:16] And mislead? [10:16] Their website isn't too informative. [10:17] * norsetto sits down and opens the chips bag [10:17] That's explained about 1/4 the way down [10:17] like I said, it just adds popular software to the default install [10:17] mpt: Ahhh, I tried to avoid looking at the page too much. [10:17] C0p3rn1c: I can play them with stock ubuntu, FWIW. no need for automatic or other 'ultimate' add-ons [10:17] I havent installed it yet [10:18] ... it also has Beryl. [10:18] siretart: sorry I can't really follow, stock ubuntu? [10:18] C0p3rn1c: as siretart alludes to, we've put quite a bit of effort into ensuring that standard Ubuntu can meet those needs, and will continue to do so [10:18] siretart: It's too difficult to click "Search", I'm afraid. [10:19] in ways that don't risk our ability to distribute Ubuntu legally [10:19] thats cool, its got hardinfo too [10:19] And iPod support. [10:19] UUE can probably get away with more since it doesn't have major commercial backing, but we can't necessarily take the same risks [10:19] Doesn't Rhythmbox do that? [10:20] Yes. [10:20] however, the standard movie player in Ubuntu can prompt you to download additional codecs as needed (provided they're legal in your jurisdiction) [10:20] * wgrant wonders why these people don't just help us. === tkamppeter_ is now known as tkamppeter [10:21] cjwatson: I'm not asking to become them, I just would like to see it grow more popular, to boost the growth of the ubuntu community [10:21] wgrant: neah, too much work [10:22] I don't see how that would help grow the Ubuntu community. [10:22] cjwatson: it would put more pressure on the hardware vendors to support linux [10:23] C0p3rn1c: we'd rather do that with Ubuntu [10:23] and we will continue to do that, including learning from Ubuntu derivatives [10:24] there are certainly plenty of cases where we can and do work directly with Ubuntu derivatives, but that requires them coming and working with us [10:24] cjwatson: like you said you are restricted with your commercial backing responsibilities [10:24] gotta be a two-way street [10:24] to my knowledge UUE hasn't come to us [10:24] C0p3rn1c: which is one good reason we can't reasonably be expected to support UUE [10:25] cjwatson: I'm sure they would like this, it's in there best intrest [10:25] "we are all downloading mp3's , illegal movies, etc..." err [10:25] C0p3rn1c, it's not because Ubuntu has commercial backing, it's because Ubuntu is a target with enough money that it's worthwhile to sue us that we need to be careful not to do legally controversial things [10:25] C0p3rn1c: then they're entirely welcome to come and talk with us about what we can do to help [10:26] but we aren't going to advertise something we didn't build; it's just not in our interests [10:26] certainly not in preference to Ubuntu itself [10:26] * Hobbsee is surprised the trademark people haven't hit it yet [10:26] cjwatson: I just thought it would be in your intrest to gain a linux user boost [10:27] is negerpunk really a music genre (at least in Germany)? [10:27] C0p3rn1c: as would it be for them. Let the smaller distro go to the bigger distro, no? [10:27] C0p3rn1c: besides, there's a release on here at the moment. [10:27] norsetto: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negerpunk [10:28] norsetto: a joke it seems [10:28] lool: ah ok, somebody seems to be taking it seriously though [10:28] C0p3rn1c: it's our opinion that our efforts are best placed doing that with Ubuntu [10:29] I really like ubuntu or linux in general, it's clearly the most advanced OS out there, it just hasnt got a big enough public to force the hardware vendors to support linux [10:31] I recently switched to ubuntu but I'm experiancing really alot of problems because of the lack of support from these hardware vendors like DELL, Nvidia ,... [10:31] yes, we're working directly with hardware vendors on that [10:32] which I think is a more appropriate use of energy :-) [10:34] to support UUE doesnt take any energy it's just a moral issue it seems [10:35] what was the evil part again, I mean that really violates your beliefs ? [10:36] C0p3rn1c: define support, then, if it takes no energy? [10:37] C0p3rn1c: Well, "evil" is perhaps the wrong word. The way that things are done breaks several things, and can cause a number of awkward situations for end users. [10:37] For most of the predecessors (Easy Ubuntu, Automatix, etc.), there has been dialog with the creators, and the features requested have been added to Ubuntu. [10:38] Its legality is somewhat questionable, it has a misleading name, significant ties with Ultamatix, an Automatix derivative, etc., etc. [10:38] Hobbsee: well you can decide yourself how far you will go with this support, publicity is also a way to support some distro [10:38] debugging my intrepid upgrade crash... fglrx is a kernel module, right? if I'm using it, lsmod should tell me, right? [10:38] As has been said previously, if the UUE people wish to be involved, they are welcome, and it's likely there is a policy-compliant way to address the use cases they are solving. [10:38] C0p3rn1c: Why would Ubuntu be likely to publicise a competing, misleading and likely illegal in many jurisdictions distribution? [10:40] competing is not so bad, but unco-operating is [10:40] liw: Right. [10:42] C0p3rn1c: I certainly never said evil (that's a strong word), simply that we'd rather improve Ubuntu than advertise something that will take testing resources away from Ubuntu itself and divert them where it's harder for us to respond to them [10:42] * wgrant admits to calling it evil initially. [10:42] if UUE were actively cooperating with Ubuntu, that probably wouldn't be an issue since we'd get testers coming straight through (as we do with Kubuntu etc.) [10:43] Some derivatives end up integrating rather well with Ubuntu, but they really need to start the integration. [10:43] C0p3rn1c: but, for the time being, the answer is that we are happy to advertise derivatives that work with us directly, but ones that don't can fend for themselves. I think that's fair [10:44] don't can fend? [10:44] * liw notes that this UUE discussion is already diverting energy _away_ from solving an Ubuntu upgrade problem ;-) [10:44] Excuse me but I don't understand what you mean with that [10:44] you misparsed my sentence [10:45] "but the ones that don't - those derivatives can fend for themselves" [10:45] that's awkward phrasing but perhaps it helps [10:45] * C0p3rn1c speaks dutch natively [10:45] "fend for" ~= "look after" [10:45] ic [10:46] well I'll email this discussion to them, and see if it can start a dialog [10:48] I'm also of the opinion that there should be more unity in the linux community instead of going our seperate ways by splitting up in so many distro's [10:49] I used to think that, but actually I don't think there's any harm at all in small groups experimenting with different ideas, as long as the results ultimately get fed back into the mainstream if they're good [10:49] Guys when you click on n-m applet you get current connections. Also you get VPN Connections. If you click on that then click on Configure VPN it opens up Network Connections with the VPN tag at the top. However the all the buttons are greyed out how do you add one? [10:49] davmor2: Install network-manager- [10:49] Where is vpnc, pptp or openvpn. [10:50] This should probably be explained somewhere, as a lot of people are confused by it. [10:50] I think I am seeing what happened with my upgrade crash: I have linux-restricted-modules-*-generic installed, but fglrx not loaded; when upgrading, the modules package gets uploaded, and this triggers fglrx to be loaded into the kernel, killing it [10:50] ok thanks for your time so far,I'm sorry for distracting you guys from your work :) [10:50] wgrant: I agree [10:51] liw: Hmm, there aren't fglrx modules any more, are there? [10:51] There is a DKMSified version, but I don't think that builds with 2.6.27. [10:52] wgrant, well, syslog shows it to be loaded just before the system crashes hard [10:52] Oct 3 10:42:54 gytha kernel: [44538.401449] fglrx: module license 'Proprietary. (C) 2002 - ATI Technologies, Starnberg, GERMANY' taints kernel. [10:52] liw: I guess it could have been from the old l-r-m. [10:53] hmm, but those files should have been removed already, surely? [10:53] liw: No. Different package names. [10:53] oh, right [10:53] l-r-m is named (not just versioned) by kernel version, ABI and flavour. [10:54] So it looks like l-r-m triggers a reload of kernel modules even if it's not installing modules for the running kernel? [10:54] it's not a reload, since the fglrx module was not in the kernel; it loads a completely new module [10:54] which is suspicous, to say the least [10:55] Hmmm. [10:55] Why wasn't fglrx loaded? [10:56] because I don't use it? [10:57] I know why you don't want it loaded, but what was stopping it from being loaded? [10:57] more importantly, what triggered it to be loaded? [10:57] Working out why it wasn't loaded before might help. [10:59] I'm not sure if I did anything special to prevent it; I can't remember it happening, I remember just being happy that the "radeon" driver was being used by X [11:00] liw@gytha$ sudo modprobe fglrx [11:00] Not loading fglrx module; not used in /etc/X11/xorg.conf [11:00] Aha. [11:00] that's with the same system, rolled back to hardy (that's why it's running off a USB stick: easy to roll back :) [11:01] * wgrant has no idea now. [11:01] in the xorg.conf from the crashed system, there is still no fglrx mentioned [11:02] indeed, the files are identical [11:03] liw: can you upload your /var/log/Xorg.0.log and your /var/log/Xorg.0.log.old somewhere? [11:03] hmm, kvm-source was installed a second before the fglrx module was loaded [11:03] tseliot, from the hardy version or the crashed, half-upgraded-to-intrepid version? [11:04] liw: the latter should be enough [11:05]