csilknhandler_,  Thanks, I following/learning from the instructions on the ubuntu wiki which only seems to deal with the most basic of packing tasks00:00
radixcsilk: are you following through the PackagingGuide at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Complete ?00:03
radixI just went through it the other day (several times) and found it really helpful00:03
csilkradix,  yes I am, Only just realised I've been looking at the "packaging from scratch" section for so long that I overlooked the fact that all the more advanced details are further down the page00:04
radixyeah, it's long :)00:04
csilkIt's like snow blindness, you look at it for so long you can't see it anymore00:05
* csilk takes coffee break00:05
radixso, does anyone have advice about why this cdbs-using package just gives me "make: Nothing to be done for `binary'." when I try to build it? It's got autotools.mk and gnome.mk included and this is a standard autotools/gnome project00:06
james_wradix: stab in the dark, but you may need debhelper.mk as well00:07
radixjames_w: oh, I've got it, sorry for not mentioning it00:07
radixthere's debhelper.mk, autotools.mk, utils.mk, and gnome.mk, in that order00:07
radixnothing else in rules00:07
james_whmm, are you actually building any binary packages?00:07
james_wi.e. is debian/control sane?00:08
* radix looks00:08
csilkIs there any guide available to see what section a package woudl fit into?00:08
radixlooks sane00:08
radixoh craaap00:08
radixjames_w: thanks for pointing me in that direction00:08
radixit's *not* sane00:08
radixit's got "Architecture: i386" ;-)00:09
nhandler_csilk: http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-archive.html#s-subsections has a list of all of the sectoins. That might help you choose.00:11
csilkradix,  is there something like a cheat sheet to give me an idea as to waht types of packages go into what section of the repositories?00:11
* radix points csilk at nhandler_ 00:11
csilkyeah i hit return just as that was posted00:11
csilkHmm, I still don't really know which of the sections would be the most apppriate for this package00:13
csilkI'm tempted to go for misc00:13
nhandler_csilk: Are there any other packages in the repositories that are similar to the one you are working on?00:13
csilkthere isnt any other software for linux similar to this00:14
james_wcsilk: if you describe it then others can give their opinions00:14
nhandler_csilk: I'm not an expert at this, but I would suggest looking at the types of packages with a section of 'misc' and 'utils'. Those sound like they might be the most appropriate.00:15
csilkThe autor claims it to be: MegaTunix is the only tuning software for Unix. It's an engine tuning utility for measuring variables within a combustion engine such as fuel to air ratio etc etc00:15
nhandler_I was just reading up about the Documentation String Freeze (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationStringFreeze), what is defined as Documentation?00:19
csilknhandler_,  it's between electronics and misc00:19
nhandler_csilk: It is really your call. You know the application better than us. If a MOTU feels that it should have a different section, they will mention that in their comment on REVU.00:21
csilkthanks nhandler_ , radix . I'll put it down as misc, people in #debain seem to aggree, and like you said revu can always change it if need be00:26
nhandler_You're welcome csilk. Good luck with the packaging. I look forward to seeing it on REVU and in the repositories.00:27
csilkThanks, it's my first package. Now that I've got into the flow of managing university work I'm really looking forward to spending more time learning the internals of ubuntu00:28
E17Hi! I now it's not an official support channel, but you're the best people to answer my little question. :) I have 7.04 and want to upgrade to 8.04. I know it's not a supported way of upgrading, but is it safe to replace "feisty" -> "hardy" in sources.list and make a dist-upgrade?00:30
nhandler_E17: I would suggest upgrading to 7.10 (Gutsy) and then upgrading to 8.04 (Hardy). Modifying the sources.list is not a safe method of upgrading.00:32
E17I wanted to get assured. Thanks. :) Will it be necessary in the future to do the same? Many people don't upgrade to every Ubuntu version.00:34
nhandler_E17: That is the safest method. You can also simply do a fresh install.00:36
E17I don't want to do so. Thus, I will be having Gutsy. :]00:40
slangasek"Many people don't upgrade to every Ubuntu version" - that's fine, but the only upgrade path from 7.04 to later versions is to upgrade 7.10 -> 8.04; if you don't want to have to upgrade every 6 months when the version you're running is end-of-lifed, you might want to do both of those upgrades now...00:43
nxvlslangasek: if you don't want to upload every 6 month, upload every 2 years - LTS -> LTS00:47
E17ok, but is it possible to skip versions since 7.10? It's interesting.00:48
wgrantYou can only skip releases if you're going LTS->LTS00:50
wgrantie. 6.06 LTS -> 8.04 -> 10.0400:50
slangasekright.  If you're on 7.04 now, the upgrade path to an LTS is 7.04 -> 7.10 -> 8.0400:50
slangasekbut you can do back-to-back upgrades...00:50
E17Do you mean downgrades?00:51
wgrantE17: No, he means upgrade from 7.04 to 7.10 and 7.10 to 8.04 in quick succession.00:53
E17But it's still ~600M for 1. upgrade and ~600M for the second.00:56
E17It's good I have 2Mbps. About an hour of downloading one "part".00:56
nhandler_E17: You need to remember, it is a year's worth of changes you are installing. That is why it takes so long.00:57
E17Yes, I understand this. However, if it was possible to have in older Ubuntu versions the newest (but less important only) packages (in official repos, -backports maybe), upgrade would be smaller.01:04
E17For example, there's newest wine in Hardy, but older in still supported Gutsy. It's OK for important packages, but not so friendly to the other ones.01:04
E17I don't moan, just type what I think. I really like Linux, Ubuntu and the Free/Open Source world.01:05
* E17 says good night / good bye, depending of your country01:11
csilkif I've got an AUTHORS file like this > http://pastebin.com/m2171c9ab  should i just credit the lead/main developer or should i list everone in that AUTHORS file even though some of them didn't do any developement, they did things like donate hardware etrc?01:13
nhandler_If I am requesting an upgrade of a package to a new upstream release (not in Debian), I know I need the .diff.gz. Do I also need a debdiff?03:39
nxvlnhandler_: use revu03:40
nxvlnhandler_: revu.ubuntuwire.com03:40
nxvlnhandler_: and attach the link to the bug report03:41
nxvlnhandler_: the whole package is prefered03:41
nhandler_nxvl: I've heard mixed things about using REVU for new upstream releases. The package is already in the repositories. Should I use REVU, or should I just upload the files to a Launchpad bug report?03:41
ScottK-laptopnhandler_: Attaching the .diff.gz to a bug is the official way.  If a potential sponsor wants it on review, you might as well put it there so you get sponsored.03:42
nhandler_Ok, thanks ScottK-laptop. Do I need to provide a debdiff along with the .diff.gz?03:43
nxvlnhandler_: it's a matter of preferences, i just check it if it's in revu :D03:43
ScottK-laptopNo.  It's pretty sensless for a new upstream.03:43
csilkAnyone got a clue why pbuilder keeps throwing me an error > make: *** [config.status] Error 103:45
csilksays it cant find "flex"03:45
nhandler_Ok, thanks ScottK-laptop and nxvl. I already have the files attached to a LP bug report. If a sponsor requests that I move it to REVU, I will. The advantage to keeping it on LP is that I only need one MOTU to look it over and upload it, vs the 2 needed for REVU03:46
ScottK-laptopnhandler_: One versus two is new upstream versus new package.  Doesn't matter if it's on revu or not.03:47
nxvlcsilk: then add flex to the build depends03:48
nxvlor flex-dev or something like that03:48
csilki did03:48
nxvlthen you added the wrong package03:48
nxvlit's looking for flex as library03:49
nxvlnot as package (i think)03:49
nxvlwhat package is it again?03:49
nxvl\o/ my first patch to the -installer03:49
nxvlcsilk: package flex?03:49
nxvlcsilk: can you send me the lp link to the package please03:49
nxvl(and version)03:49
nxvlScottK-laptop: did you know if there is a policy for bzr branches sponsorship?03:52
=== LucidFox_ is now known as LucidFox
nxvlScottK-laptop: just propose the merge with the oficial one and subscribe the team to that?03:52
ScottK-laptopnxvl: There is not.03:53
ScottK-laptopAFAIK MOTU sponsorship process is built around debian packages.03:53
nhandler_ScottK-laptop and nxvl: I just re-read the REVU wiki page "If you packaged a new upstream version (of a package that is already in the archives), and you want to get it sponsored, do not use REVU to get it sponsored. Instead see SponsorshipProcess."03:54
nxvlScottK-laptop: it's a main sponsorship03:55
ScottK-laptopI was confused by what channel we're in.03:55
ScottK-laptopDunno what the rules might be for that then.03:55
nxvli will need to ping colin on monday03:57
nxvlneed to go03:58
csilkgod damn03:58
csilkdont you just hate it when life gets in the way of productivity03:59
csilksuccess, one passed out girlfriend recovered from one friends bathroom04:30
csilknxvl, i fixed the flex problem, i was just overlooking several dependencies04:38
csilkadded them to the control file now and all is well04:39
NCommanderargh, I missed the MOTU meeting05:24
NCommanderI seem to be alseep whenever we have them05:24
cody-somervilleme too05:27
* NCommander listens to the theme of House MD05:40
cody-somervilleNCommander, are you peaking at my last.fm?05:43
NCommanderNo, youtube05:44
* NCommander thinks House is awesome05:46
csilkI know revu don't usually accept packages that have no man pages, but what if the app has no written documentation in the first place?05:49
ScottKcsilk: All the more reason you should write a man page for it.05:52
csilkScottK,  thing is, i cant test this software as it requires specialist hardware05:53
csilkso there is no way i can write the documentation05:53
ScottKUse the source luke.05:53
csilkhaha if only it were that simple05:54
=== fabrice_sp_ is now known as fabrice_sp
=== fabrice_sp_ is now known as fabrice_sp
geserNCommander: there was a MOTU meeting that actually took place?07:30
NCommandergeser, that seems to be the popular opinion07:31
alleesiretart: fyi: almost done merging fai 3.2.11.  Will try to find time to test (later)09:22
* allee afk09:22
iulianGood morning.09:52
siretartallee: excellent, thanks10:04
jpdsmorning iulian10:09
iulianHey jpds10:16
jpdsmorning RainCT10:45
iulianHi RainCT.10:46
volkrisDoes anyone know of an example of tarball-in-tarball packaging off the top of their head?11:14
volkrisI can't find any documentation about how to do it11:14
directhexvolkris, tarball-in-tarball packaging?11:15
jpdsvolkris: vim.11:15
volkrisdirecthex, I have a package where the makefiles are distributed separately from the code, so one has to unpack the makefiles and put the code in the src subdirectory of that tree11:16
directhexoh. erk.11:16
volkrisSo I asked about it here yesterday and was advised to go tarball-in-tarball11:16
volkris"erk" basically sums up my thoughts every time I'm asked to build this monstrosity :)11:17
stdinvolkris: I can think of coreutils, glibc and gcc off the top of my head, but I doubt those are "simple" examples11:29
volkrisWell I see vim has tarballs in its source distribution11:31
volkrisit's not the simplest example either, but probably mainly because it builds multiple packages11:32
RainCTdoes someone have a Python bug for me? :P11:38
directhexgah. stupid debian with their stupid mailing list culture11:39
tab_shiftthe command "dpkg-buildpackage -us -uc -rfakeroot" gives error "debian/rules: 3: include: not found" what could be the issue here ?12:17
StevenKIt starts with "#/bin/sh" rather than "#!/usr/bin/make -f" ?12:18
tab_shiftStevenK: "#!/usr/bin/make -f" is required ?12:18
StevenKIt is required to be the first line in the file12:19
tab_shiftStevenK: was following this guide https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Python12:19
StevenKI think the wiki format misses the shebang line12:20
tab_shiftStevenK: heh, that was it12:21
tab_shiftStevenK: now it says python: can't open file 'setup.py': [Errno 2] No such file or directory12:21
StevenKThen your source package doesn't include a setup.py file?12:21
tab_shiftStevenK:  but https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Python does not talk about any setup.py12:21
tab_shiftStevenK: no, any guides on making one ?12:22
StevenKI've corrected the wiki page to show the #!/usr/bin/make -f12:22
StevenKinclude /usr/share/cdbs/1/class/python-distutils.mk12:22
StevenKThat assumes python distutils12:22
tab_shiftStevenK:  python-distutils-extra deb package?12:22
StevenKNo, it assumes the software you're packaging uses distuils12:23
tab_shiftStevenK: Err.. i have a few scripts in python that i would like to package and share, hence doing this12:24
StevenKtab_shift: Then you aren't using distuils, I'd suggest dropping the -distutils.mk include and using straight debhelper12:25
tab_shiftStevenK: using debhelper means this command dh_make -c gpl -s -b ?12:26
StevenKDon't run dh_make again. And it doesn't.12:26
StevenKtab_shift: I'd suggest you read https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide12:27
tab_shiftStevenK: thanks, also i don't have a makefile as well, is it mandatory?12:29
StevenKtab_shift: No, you can deal without it12:31
tab_shiftStevenK: I'll read up & try to figure it out, thanks12:34
Hewjames_w: New debdiff for bug 257007. Thanks for your help :-)13:04
ubottuLaunchpad bug 257007 in revelation "[Intrepid] crash / error when using revelation-applet" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/25700713:04
=== Kmos_ is now known as Kmos
* StevenK kicks java13:36
StevenKmcasadevall: Here? :-)13:36
mcasadevallStevenK, for some definitions of hear13:37
StevenKmcasadevall: So, I'm trying to update cacao to 0.99.3, and it fails. Mind helping me poke at fixing it?13:37
mcasadevallwhy does it fail?13:38
=== mcasadevall is now known as NCommander
StevenKclass file for java.lang.Object not found13:38
StevenKAnd a whole bunch steming from that13:38
StevenKWhich makes me think the bootclasspath isn't getting set.13:39
StevenKNow, setting it to /usr/share/java, /usr/lib or /usr hasn't fixed it13:39
NCommandersounds like loads of fun13:39
NCommanderStevenK, it's all yours ;-)13:41
* NCommander runs13:42
NCommanderStevenK, post your work to a PPA, I'll look at it when I wake up13:42
NCommanderunless your just trying to compile the straight debian package13:42
StevenKWell, actually, 0.99~rc5 from Debian works. 0.99.3 from upstream doesn't13:43
NCommanderStevenK, maybe there is a reason 0.99.3 isn't in sid or experimental13:52
NCommandermorning emgent13:52
sebnerahoi emgent13:54
sebnerStevenK: did you see my nfdump debdiff?13:54
NCommanderStevenK, how are you trying to compile it13:54
NCommanderStevenK, and what are you using for --with-classpath-install-dir13:56
StevenKsebner: I did not14:06
StevenKNCommander: I think I know what is sort of going on -- they renamed all of the ./configure options for 0.99.314:07
sebnerStevenK: ah, I attached a debdiff and thought you will notice it because you are subscribed to the bug14:07
NCommanderStevenK, that needs to be set to the where classpath is14:07
NCommanderStevenK, or in other words: http://xkcd.com/293/14:08
* StevenK beats NCommander to death14:10
StevenKNCommander: I've been looking at stuff for an hour before I asked, you know14:10
NCommanderI apologize14:10
NCommanderI suspect thats the problem however14:10
NCommanderI'll see if I can just compile the tarball here14:10
StevenKI know it was in jest, so shrug :-P14:10
sebnerNCommander R.I. P14:11
NCommandersebner, well, it just happened that StevenK pointed me to that why I was reading xkcd14:12
sebnerStevenK: will you review it or should I subscribe u-u-s?14:12
sebnerNCommander: xD xD xD :D14:12
StevenKWhich bug is it?14:12
StevenKI might care14:12
sebnerStevenK: bug #26881114:13
ubottuLaunchpad bug 268811 in nfdump "nfdump 1.5.7-5 introduces an empty -dbg package, while the main package ships unstripped binaries" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26881114:13
StevenKsebner: I'm not subscribed14:13
sebnerStevenK: argh sry. the other steve xD14:14
* StevenK wins14:16
james_wHew: looks good thanks. I'll upload after lunch. Did you warn Jef about the issue?14:16
sebnerjames_w: now you are a hardcore u-u-s guy :D // I'll upload a new debdiff for wordpress later :)14:17
NCommanderStevenK, what's your configure string14:18
james_wsebner: cool, what approach are you going to take?14:18
Hewjames_w: I emailed him before just before you posted. Now that you've checked the new debdiff I'll send off another mail.14:18
sebnerjames_w: I have to investigate further but I'm wondering since the fix is from (beginning) 200714:19
StevenKNCommander: --with-java-runtime-library-prefix=/usr --disable-disassembler --libdir=/usr/lib/cacao --with-jni_h=/usr/include/classpath --with-jni_md_h=/usr/include/classpath14:19
james_wHew: great, thanks. I haven't downloaded and patched to check thoroughly, but I trust you to tell the difference between a tab and a space :-)14:19
james_wsebner: yeah, I'm not sure I agree with the analysis in the other bug report. I would have to read the CVE and the patch again to know whether we should pull it in14:20
Hewjames_w: Heh, yes. I noticed it before and had a dilemma, whether I should change his patch or leave it for consistency. Tabs are definitely there now :-)14:20
sebnerjames_w: I know and I'll do that :)14:20
james_wHew: it's something you should change as it can cause failures, I just can't tell you under which circumstances.14:21
sebnerjames_w: from a quick look it seems that we really don't need this fix as long as we stick to 2.5.x and not 2.6.x14:23
Hewjames_w: Ah ok, good to know.14:23
NCommanderStevenK, it builds fine from source here14:23
NCommanderare you build-deping on classpath-common14:24
sebnerjames_w: at least we merged the debian version which has the fix  ^^14:26
sebnerjames_w: /me is confused. I merged the actual version from Debian and Debian *has* this fix included so we get it as well when we merge it14:29
StevenKNCommander: Yes14:48
StevenKNCommander: It builds, so I'm good14:48
james_wHew: uploaded, thanks.15:13
Hewjames_w: excellent, thank you :-)15:13
=== allee_ is now known as allee
=== emma is now known as emma42
=== emma42 is now known as emma
smartboyathomeI'm having trouble using pbuilder. I am backporting packages using it (I am on Intrepid, and am trying to build some packages for hardy), but I can't get one package to build because it depends on the others. I tried the method in PbuilderHowto on the wiki for setting up a local repository for pbuilder and using it with pbuilder, but pbuilder still doesn't use it and complains about the packages missing.16:42
LaserJockanybody have actual working flashplugin-nonfree in intrepid?16:56
jussi01LaserJock: me16:57
LaserJockjussi01: it doesn't take 100% CPU?16:57
jussi01LaserJock: I havent looked exactly, but other programs are running fine with it... I can take a look if you like16:58
LaserJockwell, I was getting pegged CPU and flickering with 64-bit Intrepid16:59
LaserJockso I reinstalled with 32-bit and still the same thing16:59
jussi01LaserJock: nope, its fine here on 32bit16:59
LaserJockso I'm assuming it's not specific to my particular install16:59
LaserJockI suppose it could be hardware related...17:00
jussi01LaserJock: Im using it in firefox on kubuntu if that helps17:00
LaserJockI'm using FF on Ubuntu17:00
jussi01ok, so looks like either ubuntu or your machine specific17:01
LaserJockflashplugin-nonfree might also be a good target for a Hug Day17:03
LaserJock174 open bugs and 90 in New status17:03
mcquaidheh i jsut came to ask about the flashplugin backport.  it says it's 10 but it's really still 917:04
mcquaidwhy is that?17:04
superm1LaserJock, mine was acting similarly because my pulseaudio got messed up again17:04
superm1on 32 bit17:04
superm1it seems to be having lots of troubles, but i've not looked into it yet17:04
LaserJocksuperm1: what's "messed up"?17:04
superm1only works after i kill the daemon, rm ~/.pulse* and then restart the daemon17:05
superm1and then only works for a limited undetermined period of time17:05
LaserJockmcquaid: how do you know that it's 9?17:07
LaserJockmcquaid: and what does dpkg -l | grep flashplugin-nonfree give you for the version?17:10
mcquaid10.0.1.218+ Adobe Flash Player plugin installer17:10
mcquaidheh, ya it's in the file name. what's that all about +really9.0.124 wtf?17:11
mcquaidhow about 'really' package 10 and i dunno call it 1017:11
LaserJockso my guess is that we had to revert back to 917:11
LaserJockmcquaid: it's not exactly that easy17:11
mcquaidi understand.  i just wanted beta 10, i've never had a problem installing flash manually but can't get it working for some reason17:13
mcquaidand i saw there was a backport, i thought ah cool, but then it's really 9, so I'm back where i started17:13
LaserJockFlash 10 *was* uploaded to -backports17:14
LaserJockbut then was reverted to 917:14
mcquaiddo you know the reason for reverting back?17:14
mcquaidjust curious17:14
sebnermcquaid: it was crap on hardy17:14
mcquaidtoo bad. read a lot of surprisingly good comments on 10.  like fullscreen finally using vid overlay properly17:15
mcquaidthat's all i wanted17:15
mcquaiddamn i hate flash17:15
sebnermcquaid: well 26 days to go ;)17:16
mcquaidso flash 10 is fine in intreped?17:16
sebnermcquaid: well, we have the beta and it's half crappy. maybe the rc or final will be better17:17
mcquaidheh. well one can hope17:18
mcquaid'flash 10! now with less crap!!"17:18
sebnermcquaid: flash 10 will be a lot better than flash 9. but dunno if still crappy or not  ^^17:19
orly_owlgive swfdec or gnash a go17:19
mcquaidhow is swfdec or gnash in regards to vid playback? fullscreen? overlay?17:20
sebnerorly_owl: I tried it and it wasn't that usable for me17:20
orly_owldid you compile latest trunk?17:20
orly_owlmcquaid: dunno. try it and find out17:21
orly_owl#gnash and #swfdec btw17:21
LaserJockflash 10 in Intrepid for me sucks because it's taking 100% CPU and flickers17:22
mcquaidLaserJock, sigh same old story eh. how hard can it be to use xv?17:23
mcquaidLaserJock, is that with video or do you mean other types of flash, like a game or funky menu's etc17:25
LaserJockany flash17:25
mcquaidwell that sucks to hear17:25
LaserJockI think anyway17:25
hedkandifolks I have a package I could put into the repositories17:26
hedkandianyone want to advise?17:26
hedkandiI think it should go in the multiverse17:26
hedkandieveryone in bed?17:27
LaserJockhedkandi: well, would it depend on anything in multiverse and what's the license?17:27
hedkandiit depends on two lgpl things17:27
hedkandithe licence is pretty much gpl except17:27
hedkandifor a clause which says that modifications may not be distributed17:28
ScottK-laptopThat's enough that it has to go in multiverse17:29
hedkandidoes it?17:29
hedkandiI wasn't actually sure from reading17:29
hedkandithe ubuntu pages (which are confused and badly written)17:29
hedkandiI actually think some clarification would be good, as to what restricted is about17:30
orly_owlwhen's the next LTS out?17:30
hedkandibut anyway, I think I'll be happy with the multiverse17:30
ScottK-laptopYes.  Since any modified package would be undistributable, it's not Free software.17:30
orly_owlapril 2010?17:30
ScottK-laptopThat's the schedule.17:30
directhexish, yes17:31
orly_owlis 8.04 going to stop at 8.04.4?17:31
LaserJockhedkandi: is your question Multiverse vs Restricted or Multiverse vs Universe?17:31
hedkandiScottK: well I disagree with your assumption that free means you can distribute modified versions17:31
ScottK-laptophedkandi: It's not mine.  It's Debian's and Ubuntu's, but I agree with it.17:31
directhexhedkandi, yu can disagree, but you're wrong17:31
directhexhedkandi, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms17:32
hedkandii'm usually right 'cos I'm very clever.17:32
directhexwait, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Free_Software_Definition17:32
hedkandiLaserJock: restricted I think.17:32
directhexfreedom 3, "# improve the program, and release your improvements to the public, so that the whole community benefits (freedom 3)"17:33
LaserJockhedkandi: ah, well that I can kinda see where there could be some confusion17:33
LaserJockhedkandi: but Restricted is really only used for a few special packages17:33
LaserJockso basically assume you're not going to get anything into Restricted directly17:34
loveballis this the place for recommendations?17:34
directhexresticted is for non-free apps supported by canonical, which basically means nvidia drivers. why do canonical want to offer support for your package? is it that critical?17:34
hedkandiLaserJock: ok17:34
LaserJockdirecthex: I don't think that's even quite true17:34
hedkandibut I'd be okay in the Multiverse then?17:34
LaserJockRestricted is primarily for drivers and non-free "blobs"17:34
hedkandiSo how would I get my package into the multiverse?17:35
LaserJocknot just any non-free software, generally speaking17:35
directhexbut even things in multiverse/restricted need to be distributable17:35
hedkandimy program is distributable.17:35
LaserJockhedkandi: same way you would to get it into Universe17:35
loveballi would like for code::blocks to move into universe, is there a guide for these things?17:36
hedkandiLaserJock: call me ignorant, but could you just remind me of the process please?17:36
LaserJockhedkandi: package it, put it on REVU, get 2 MOTU +1 votes17:37
ubottuREVU is a web-based tool to give people who have worked on Ubuntu packages a chance to "put their packages out there" for other people to look at and comment on in a structured manner. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU17:37
loveballLaserJock: thanx17:37
hedkandigood thanks. I didn't know about revu.17:37
ScottK-laptopAnd it's way too late for Intrepid.17:39
hedkandipoint of general discussion: I think it's bad that other people can wreck my software and distribute it as17:40
hedkandiif they've "improved" (haha) it.17:41
hedkandiThe fact is that there are a lot of incompetent programmers and designers hanging around ubuntu17:41
hedkandiand I don't want them playing with my program and introducing bugs and inconsistencies.17:41
LaserJockfine, then don't put it in Ubuntu17:42
hedkandiI think this is entirely sensible,and the motu would do well to accept that.17:42
LaserJockaccept what?17:42
hedkandiIe if the people running ubuntu were a little smarter, they would allow software under my licence into ubuntu main.17:42
hedkandiI think the motu are being a bit anal in refusing my licence.17:43
loveballhedkandi, what is your license?17:43
LaserJockhedkandi: well, sorry, but we have established principles17:43
hedkandimy licence says modified versions may not be distributed17:44
LaserJockand one of them is that we are free to modify17:44
hedkandiindeed and that's different17:44
jcastrothere's no point to having an oss license if you can't redistribute it17:44
jcastrothat's like, a fundamental right17:44
loveballhedkandi: so, you want something that aint free mislabeled and supported by canonical?17:44
hedkandimy licence comes under the "free" banner.17:45
LaserJockwell, by any definition of Free software I've seen, it doesn't17:45
loveballi aint free to change it and redistrobute it, which is one of "three freedoms"17:45
ScottK-laptophedkandi: One thing that is supported is a license condition that if you change it you have to rename it.17:46
hedkandiif gpl'd software was "free" I'd be able to modify it, and then sell it. So I think your definition of free is contrived17:46
loveballhedkandi: aint you?17:47
hedkandiScottK: tell me more??17:47
ScottK-laptopThat way modifcations can be distributed, but the 'name' of your package doesn't get 'tainted'.17:47
hedkandiThere is an interesting distinction to be made, actually, between a 'modification' and a 'modified version'17:48
LaserJockor better yet, you could work with Ubuntu to make sure the modifications are "good"17:48
directhexstep 1: introduce a debian/ folder17:48
directhexstep 2: IT'S MODIFIED, GAME OVER!17:48
ScottK-laptophedkandi: See DFSG #4 http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines17:48
hedkandiLaserJock: indeed, but ultimately that decision should be made by me.17:49
ScottK-laptophedkandi: That's exactly why it's not Free software.  You are retaining control over it.17:49
hedkandiI'm allowing modifications, so I'm not.17:50
directhexyou're not allowing modifications. you're providing a read-only copy of the source17:50
hedkandiwake up folks17:50
directhexand conveniently ignoring that you can't make a package without introducing "changes" in the form of the debian/ package structure17:50
hedkandiI'm allowing modifications, but I'm forbidding their distribution.17:50
directhexhedkandi, you know this has been covered more than once in debian's history, right? there's precedent?17:50
directhexhedkandi, you're talking about the PINE license.17:51
hedkandino, actually.17:51
directhexwell, the old version17:51
hedkandisorry I'm ignorant of the pine licence17:51
ScottK-laptophedkandi: Ubuntu is a distribution, so you're forbidding Ubuntu from having any changes.17:51
hedkandiI guess so, yep.17:51
LaserJockthat means technically we can't even package it17:52
hedkandiLaserJock: why is that please?17:52
ScottK-laptopLaserJock: Typically debian packaging isn't considered a modification.17:52
directhexhedkandi, how do you package it if we can't insert any files into it with packaging metadata?17:52
LaserJockScottK-laptop: *any* patch would be17:52
ScottK-laptopYes, but this is common in multiverse.17:53
ScottK-laptopSo it'd either work unmodified or not, but we couldn't fix it.17:53
hedkandiwell can I make the package myself?17:53
LaserJockScottK-laptop: he was talking about it should  be allowed in Main though17:53
ScottK-laptopYes, but it can only go in the Multiverse repo.17:53
ScottK-laptopRight, it clearly can't.17:53
directhexhedkandi, YOU WIN THE PRIZE! http://mako.cc/copyrighteous/images/trophy.png17:54
jcastrobest image of all time17:54
hedkandiok wait a mo.17:54
LaserJockScottK-laptop: even in Multiverse though, we have no way of enforcing that license really17:55
LaserJockScottK-laptop: what prevents a MOTU from uploading a patch, we can't expect people to look at every license before they upload just to see if they are allowed to do so17:55
ScottK-laptopIf it's in Multiverse, they really need to.17:55
ScottK-laptopWhich is why many motu just ignore multiverse.17:56
LaserJockI'm not entirely sure17:56
ScottK-laptopIf it's distributable, it can go in multiverse.  That's the rule.17:56
LaserJockno, it's not exactly17:56
LaserJockthere isn't any hard rules for Multiverse17:56
LaserJockwe know that it *has* to be distributable, but that's not necessarily the only restriction, the Archive admins could reject for other reasons if the wish to17:57
directhexif you *really* want to prevent standard procedure - e.g. fixups for linking locations etc - then go down the j0000rg route. either permit distribution but retain copyright over the name (like iceweasel in debian) or the cdrecord route for spewing lots of "you're an evil hippie, you should be using solaris" every time an 'unapproved' build is used17:57
LaserJockScottK-laptop: obviously when there is no source we can't modify it, but if it's got source I expect that Ubuntu should be able to modify it18:00
hedkandiwell I just read about pine. thanks to directhex18:00
LaserJockwe've had cases were *only* Ubuntu can modify it18:00
directhexLaserJock, firefox?18:00
LaserJockfirefox is tighter than that, but kinda yeah18:00
hedkandiI don't understand the trophy I'm afraid.18:01
LaserJockthat wasn't an example I was thinking18:01
directhexhedkandi, joerg schilling claims to be a free software advocate, but is abbrasive, refuses to accept patches or fixes, and releases undistributable code. in the end most linux distros dropped his software in favour of better-licensed solutions18:02
directhexhedkandi, ooh, remember xfree86? how many people use xfree86 these days?18:02
LaserJockwell, basically18:02
LaserJockyou're free to do what you want with your code18:03
LaserJockit would probably make it ok into Multiverse18:03
LaserJockbut if you're not going to allow us to modify it I'd personally rather you not put it in Ubuntu at all18:03
LaserJockjust give out .debs on the project site or something18:03
directhexi'm unconvinced it's acceptable for multiverse, and i don;t think anyone would touch it within debian or ubuntu18:04
LaserJockwell, it'd probably be no worse than a lot of Multiverse18:04
LaserJockbut my guess is that we'd end up violating the license inadvertently and hedkandi would get mad18:05
hedkandijoerg schilling18:05
hedkandiI'm surprised that more people don't take this stance however. Is it unusual?18:06
directhexLaserJock, there's also the ion3 issues within debian caused by the same attitudes as j00rg18:06
LaserJockdirecthex: sure18:06
hedkandiI don't remember xfree86 I'm afraid.18:06
directhexhedkandi, it's no an unusal stance, no. and it's an acceptable one. but saying black is white annoys people. if i can make your app 10x better but it's illegal for me to give LaserJock those improvements, then that's not free software18:07
directhexit's closed software with a NDA'd copy of the source18:07
ScottK-laptopdirecthex: We have binary only stuff in multiverse, so this is definitely within the scope of what's allowed.18:07
LaserJockexcept I consider the binary stuff as being better since there's no chance of modification18:08
hedkandiwhat's closed software with nda? the stuff in multiverse?18:08
directhexhedkandi, some of it, yes18:09
LaserJockif you're not gonna let me make the modifications, then don't give me the source18:09
directhexhedkandi, actually, i think cdrecord reappeared in multiverse. it's right up your street18:09
directhexhedkandi, what's the difference between a closed source app, and an open source app i can't improve?18:09
hedkandidirecthex: you can modify my swe, but you can't pass that on.18:10
LaserJockhedkandi: but "passing it on" is *what* we do18:10
hedkandias I've said, I don't mind people modifying it for their own use.18:10
hedkandii see. well well.18:10
hedkandiThe discussion should now turn to the difference18:10
hedkandibetween a modification and a modified version.18:10
hedkandiI don't mind people distributing diff files  and patches for my swe18:11
ScottK-laptopThen allow that in your license.18:11
ScottK-laptopThat would make it allowable for Universe/Main.18:11
hedkandiwell is a patch considered a derived work?18:11
LaserJockwhen the patch is applied I'd think so18:12
hedkandiI didn't think that it was legally possible for me to say anything about patches18:12
ScottK-laptopThat's one of the conditions mentioned in DFSG #4.18:13
hedkandiWhen you apply a patch, you create a derived work, but you aren't distributing a derived work.18:13
directhexactually, i know this license18:13
directhexnot just PINE. there's a closer parallel18:13
hedkandican someone just tell me quickly what debian is all about please? is it like gnu? I'll go read.18:14
ScottK-laptopRight, but once I upload it to Ubuntu, then I am distributing it.18:14
directhexMicrosoft Reference Source License (Ms-RSL)18:14
ScottK-laptopDebian is the distro that Ubuntu is derived from.18:14
ScottK-laptopWe get most of our packages and our policy from them.18:14
LaserJockScottK-laptop: link to DFSG?18:15
hedkandiWhat,exactly is the difference between debian and ubuntu?18:15
hedkandiand can I run debian linux on my pc?18:16
ScottK-laptopUbuntu is a derivative of Debian.18:16
directhexhedkandi, debian is a distro. ubuntu is a distro. ubuntu is based on debian. this is possible because debian is Free software, and all the packages in it can be redistributed18:16
directhexhedkandi, okay, here's the laundry list of problems, there may be more.18:17
directhexhedkandi, 1) a security problem is found in your app. we can't fix it because that's a patch and is TEH BANNED18:18
directhexhedkandi, 2) a new lib which your app depends on has an altered API. we can't fix it because that's a patch and is TEH BANNED18:18
ScottK-laptopdirecthex: When was the last time you saw a security fix in multiverse?18:18
directhexScottK-laptop, well, indeed. multiverse is a security hole18:19
ScottK-laptopSo if he wants to be in multiverse it's fine.18:19
LaserJockScottK-laptop: that we don't often see them is not exactly the same as saying that can't happen though18:19
ScottK-laptopTrue, it's just that generally we can't fix stuff there and so it just sits.18:20
directhexor dies18:20
directhexnon-free stuff that isn't considered "vital" (like nvidia, no flame wars please) dies, or at least atrophies badly18:21
directhexhedkandi, 3) a user files a bug report. we can't fix that bug.18:23
hedkandidirecthex: wrong about (2)18:23
hedkandithe lgpl requires that you can update the linked library18:23
hedkandifor this purpose, I provide source code for mine18:23
hedkandiThe "security problem" is another way of saying "we think there's a bug"18:24
hedkandiAnd then I'm afraid it my opinion of what is a bug that matters.18:24
hedkandioh no wait (2)18:24
directhexhedkandi, part of what this ties into is the concept of stable releases. if you release version 2 of your app, which fixes bugs in version 1, that isn't good enough - a stable release is expected by users to not suffer sudden unexpected changes, so versions are not changed in stable releases - problems (and ONLY the problems) are patched, but the version remains18:24
hedkandidirecthex: ok so a "stable release" is a released branch18:26
hedkandidirecthex: this thing about "stable rElease" does destroy your point (2) however18:27
hedkandias in a stable release of an api, only the bugs will be fixed and the api won't change.18:27
directhexask ncommander about the ada 4.2 transition18:28
hedkandiCan I Mention something I just found on the debian site please?18:28
hedkandithis page references the artistic licence18:28
hedkandiand it is called "free" at debian18:29
directhexjust take it up with debian-legal18:29
directhexyou obviously aren't interested with anything said here18:29
directhexbut, short answer, your app WILL NOT be considered free software, for inclusion into debian main, or ubuntu main/universe. and nobody within MOTU will give a rat's arse about your package if it's in non-free or multiverse (you'll need to take on that burden yourself)18:30
directhexyou're probably better off just packaging it yourself18:30
hedkandiAnyway, if you look at the artistic licence 2.018:30
directhexand keeping it on your own site18:30
hedkandiit distinguishes between standard and modified versions18:30
hedkandiand there are restrictions on distributing the modified versions18:31
hedkandiok well I can package it myself I think!18:31
CarlFKis there a public repo for the files found in a package's debian dir?18:32
CarlFKlike if I want to get qemu's, but don't want the whole qemu source too18:32
ScottK-laptophedkandi: Yes, those are very close to the types of restrictions allowed under DFSG #4.18:33
hedkandiI rather like the artistic licence 2.018:33
hedkandiso tell me, can we compromise. If I use al2.0 can I have my swe in main?18:33
CarlFKmainly so I can ask a questions about it: how do I get it to do ./configure --target-list=x86_64-softmmu18:33
ScottK-laptopArtistic 2.0 is DFSG free, so it would be OK for Universe.  To get in Main, Canonical has to want to support it.18:33
slytherinwhat are usually parameters considered while granting freeze exception?18:33
LaserJockCarlFK: well, you could get just the .diff.gz?18:34
ScottK-laptopslytherin: It's generally a question of risk versus potential benifit.18:34
ScottK-laptopIt's not an exact science.18:34
siretartCarlFK: some packages are maintained that way. but not all.18:34
hedkandiyes I did say AL was dfsg free, and directhex blew a fuse.18:34
slytherinScottK-laptop: Ok. I am considering applying for exception for gnomeradio. Let's see what happens.18:35
directhexAL is. AL2 is not.18:35
ScottK-laptopdirecthex: Why not?18:35
directhexand as per the authors, AL is for use only when dual-licensed with something better18:35
directhexScottK-laptop, non-modification terms. check which license is in your /usr/share/doc/common-licenses/18:35
ScottK-laptopI know which is there.18:35
ScottK-laptopI don't see anything in those restrictions that violates DFSG.18:36
ScottK-laptopThey are distasteful, but pass DFSG #4 as I read it.18:36
directhex"You are permitted to use the Standard Version and create and use Modified Versions for any purpose without restriction, provided that you do not Distribute the Modified Version."18:36
CarlFKok - was hoping there was something similar to apt-get source qemu18:36
directhexis the term from AL2. and not in DFSG-free AL118:36
ScottK-laptopdirecthex: There is also the section "Distribution of Modified Versions of the Package as Source" that I think makes it OK.18:37
directhexseriously, it just gets tiresome18:38
directhexif your app is non-free, then just say it's non-free and go within the little pen set aside for that18:38
hedkandiwell as you said, no-one will give a rat's if it's in multiverse18:38
slytherinwhat is with people who insist that their application go into main :-P18:38
LaserJockdirecthex: no need to shout :-)18:38
hedkandiI think al2.0 is free18:39
hedkandiLaserJ: can I get al2.0 into main?18:39
* directhex wants wolfenstein: enemy territory in main :'(18:39
ScottK-laptophedkandi: Has to be in Universe to even be considered for Main.18:39
slytherinhedkandi: I wouldn't say that about multiverse. Far more people use Sun JDK even though it is in multiverse.18:39
ScottK-laptopGotta run.18:39
hedkandiok well for the time being I'll aim for the multiverse then.18:40
hedkandiI'm gonna have to go soon folks...18:40
slytherindirecthex: grow up buddy, play wesnoth. :-D18:40
LaserJockhedkandi: I don't know specifically about al2.018:40
* siretart finds 'joerg schilling' in the backlog...18:40
hedkandinot to worry.18:40
LaserJockbut it does need to be in Universe before it can go into Main18:40
hedkandiokay then. That's fine.18:41
hedkandiI'll get my package sorted out and "wing it" later on.18:41
LaserJocksounds good18:41
hedkandithanks for all the advice folks. Doubtless I'll be back sometime18:41
directhexis main a status symbol?18:42
CarlFKdirecthex: I am sure it is to some18:43
LaserJockhmm, I wouldn't exactly call it that18:43
directhexfrankly my life would be easier if i could get sponsorship from u-u-s instead of u-m-s18:43
directhexbut there's main, and there's main in the default install18:43
LaserJockfor me it's always been a core subset of Free software that Ubuntu chooses to support more extensively18:43
LaserJocksoftware in Main goes through security audits and generally seeks active upstreams18:44
directhexon a related note, where's my pet debian developer18:45
LaserJockdirecthex: why would it make your life easier?18:45
LaserJockis u-m-s not very responsive?18:46
directhexit's smaller, so tracking down a main sponsor who has the time to do my packages (and agrees to do them) is tricky sometimes18:47
directhextook me weeks to get something as bloody trivial as a documentation package sponsored18:47
LaserJockwell, there are things to be improved for sure18:48
LaserJockrecently Canonical has started having all their Core Devs doing 1hr/week in the sponsorship queue18:48
LaserJockI think more particularly though18:49
LaserJockMain tends to be more maintainer focused, Debian-style18:49
LaserJockso if a Main package doesn't have a designated maintainer it can pretty easily fall through the cracks18:49
LaserJockthere are a few Main packages that are not as well maintained as most Universe apps18:50
directhexor that maintainer is overly busy. or on holiday. or busy learning to cook18:50
LaserJockI'd like to see my QA work in identifying those packages and getting people to help make sure the cracks  close up18:50
directhexLaserJock, i did a fair bit of the work on mono for intrepid, which is in main. if there's anything which can make a core dev really really far too busy all of a sudden, it's packages with "mono" in the name#18:53
* sebner laughs :)18:53
slytherinAny MOTU free enough to sponsor the fix to resindvd plugin I backported from upstream CVS?18:54
LaserJockdirecthex: mono-develop?18:55
directhexLaserJock, that one hasn't been touched for a while since there hasn't been a stable release for a while, and we in the pkg-mono team don't want to offer support for a package marked "alpha" by upstream18:56
LaserJockI just don't like sponsoring things I don't know much about, especially in Main18:57
LaserJockit's not that I dislike the software itself, I just don't like blindly uploading things18:58
directhexLaserJock, well, i kinda understand that attitude, but i think there's a difference between random apps, and stuff actively team maintained in alioth by debian & ubuntu people alike18:58
directhexi mean, if canonical want to PAY me to do it, then fine :p18:59
LaserJockwhy don't the Ubuntu people sponsor it then?18:59
LaserJockthe Ubuntu people in the team that is18:59
directhexahh, that's the last of my angostura gone. now i can start on the PROPER stuff18:59
directhexLaserJock, we only have one core dev, and he's rather busy at the best of times with the other teams he's in19:00
directhexoh, and he's mostly debian these days anyway19:01
LaserJockah yeah19:01
sebnerdirecthex: at least MD trunk is pretty stable :P and I touched it in past :)19:02
directhexsebner, i know it's a bit unstable right now. i know. but offering years of stable release support to a random svn checkout of a large IDE?19:03
directhexbleh :/19:03
LaserJockI'm not a huge fan of mono right now, so many good apps that eat all my memory :-)19:04
directhexLaserJock, better than java on that front. and it should improve a fair bit in jaunty, with mono 219:04
LaserJockyeah? that'd be cool19:05
sebnerdirecthex: was just a joke :)19:05
LaserJockI love gnome-do, Tasque, and Tomboy, but they eat up so much RAM19:05
directhexLaserJock, oh, and ~20 meg of space on the install cd saved too19:05
sebnerhmm /me only uses MD19:05
directhexLaserJock, it's mostly shared pages though19:05
sebnerLaserJock: you also don't like banshee?19:06
LaserJocksebner: I dont' know, never really tried it19:06
directhexi like banshee, but i think it needs some more work before i put a proposal to the desktop team about looking at it versus rhythmbox19:06
LaserJockdirecthex: right, but those apps are only actively used occasionally and take up 1/3 of my in use RAM19:06
sebnerLaserJock: more ram! yesterday I built a new Pc for my parents with 4gb ram :P19:07
directhexsebner, 4 is the right umber for a new pc these days, certainly with windows on it19:07
sebnerdirecthex: ubuntu 8.10 on it :P19:07
directhexLaserJock, how much ram do you have?19:07
directhexthat seems a VERY large number19:08
LaserJocktomboy+tasque+gnome-do run ~100-150 MB19:08
LaserJockfor me19:09
LaserJockthat was on 64-bit19:09
directhexyou're sure that's taking shared pages into account?19:09
LaserJockI believe so19:09
sebnerf-spot is also pretty strange O_o19:09
directhexf-spot is the bane of my life19:09
directhexgnome-system-monitor shows 16.5M for tomboy, which i think is fair enough19:10
LaserJocknow I'm running 32-bit so it's roughly half the usage19:10
LaserJockon 64-bit I would just get into gnome and maybe fire up FF and I was already at 1GB used19:11
sebnerLaserJock: O_o19:11
LaserJocknow it's more like 500MB19:11
directhexwell this xchat window is showing more than twice the RAM use of tomboy19:11
directhexso i don't think blaming mono is entirely fair19:11
* sebner has now 565mb ram for a normal pc use19:11
LaserJockfor me Firefox is the only app that uses more than the mono apps19:12
sebnerLaserJock: how much?19:12
LaserJocksebner: how much what?19:13
sebnerLaserJock: firefox takes ram for you19:13
LaserJock~ 100MB at startup19:13
directhexfirefox is a hungry beast19:13
directhexi'm showing 25 meg with 1 tab... LaserJock, how exactly are you measuring your ram use?19:13
sebnerat lot better than version219:13
LaserJockso far the difference between 64-bit and 32-bit is pretty significant19:14
LaserJockdirecthex: gnome-system-monitor at the moment19:14
sebnerff 3.1 does only take 135mb (while watching youtube)19:14
LaserJockbut I also use top19:14
directhexoh, whoops, i forgot, this isn't ubuntu firefox, it's 32-bit from tarball19:14
directhex38 for hardy firefox with 1 tab19:15
LaserJockin 64-bit intrepid  each of Tasque, gnome-do, and Tomboy took about ~40MB each19:15
directhexon intrepid? really seems a lot to me?19:15
LaserJockwhich would be OK, IMO, if they were doing a lot of work or something19:16
LaserJockbut they're little convenience apps19:16
directhexbanshee clocks in at 45 meg to me19:16
directhex25 for f-spot19:16
directhex48 for monodevelop19:16
directhexthose are chunky apps though, and i'm positive g-s-m doesn't tell you if 2 processes are sharing the same chunk of memory19:17
LaserJockright now on 32bit intrepid I'm getting 17MB+15MB+15MB for the 319:17
LaserJockso 32-bit makes a hug difference19:18
directhexwell, yes, it does. but not as big a jump as you suggest IME19:18
LaserJockbut they're still more than most other apps19:19
LaserJockwell, I all I can report is the numbers I got :-)19:19
directhexhow does pidgin weigh in?19:19
directhexfor me, on 64-bit, it shows as marginally heavier than tomboy19:19
LaserJockright now it's heavy at 36MB19:19
LaserJockPidgin is #3 for me right behind FF and Xorg19:20
directhexanyway, isn't evolution our default mail client?19:20
directhexi mean really, you could load every mono app in ubuntu and still use less ram than evo19:20
LaserJockon 64 bit the mono apps were using a lot more than Pidgin19:20
LaserJockI don't use evolution19:20
directhexnot for me! really!19:20
directhexdirecthex@mortos:~$ dpkg-architecture | grep DEB_BUILD_ARCH=19:21
LaserJocklike I said, right behind FF and Xorg would be gnome-do, tomboy, and Tasque19:21
LaserJockand I'd have 900MB-1GB of used RAM19:22
LaserJockfor 32-bit I'm running 500-600MB19:22
LaserJockso the mono apps seemed like the obvious target19:23
directhexwell, python is ubuntu's language of choice, and looking at http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=csharp&lang2=python ...19:24
LaserJockright, python apps do much better for me19:25
LaserJockI was thinking of trying to port Tasque to python, but it's a bit beyond the amount of time I've got19:25
LaserJockthough Ruby 1.9 looks really quite fast19:27
LaserJockI wonder what it's memory usage is like19:27
directhexironpython! worst of both worlds!19:27
directhexpython's crummy syntax, plus mono's system requirements!19:27
directhexand, for extra measure, (c) microsoft19:27
sebnerdirecthex: ;)19:27
LaserJockwell, I don't care much, I just don't have time to learn another language19:28
directhexdirecthex@mortos:~$ grep Copyright /usr/share/doc/ironpython/copyright | head -1Copyright (c) Microsoft Corporation.19:28
LaserJockI'm not a programmer, nor will I probably ever be19:28
LaserJock*professional programmer, I suppose19:28
LaserJockso for now i stick to Fortran, C, and as much Python as I can get away with19:29
directhexall the cool kids use fortran19:29
LaserJockheck yeah19:29
directhextoo muxh time spent supporting people who live on mpif77 :/19:29
LaserJockI so hate fortran19:29
jussi01LaserJock: just FYI wrt flashplugin-nonfree - mine works fine for youtube, but on cnn videos basically freezes up.19:29
LaserJockbut whatever, that's what my code is written in so ..19:30
LaserJockand it doesn't work with gfortran19:30
directhexLaserJock, are you a u-m-s then?19:30
LaserJockso I got to *forward-port* gcc 3.419:30
LaserJockdirecthex: I'm a Core Dev19:30
LaserJockI don't think I'm currently in the u-m-s team since I'm trying to finish my dissertation19:31
directhexLaserJock, if i need something mono-related sponsored, can i add you to my list of friendly people to talk to? i don't want to abuse pitti's good graces19:31
LaserJockhmm, good question19:32
sebnerLaserJock: ah core-dev! :D mind sponsoring a merge? It seems they forgot about me19:35
LaserJockwhat's the package?19:36
sebnerLaserJock: tuxtype, bug #26199119:37
ubottuLaunchpad bug 261991 in tuxtype "Merge tuxtype 1.5.17.dfsg1-3 from Debian(Unstable)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26199119:37
LaserJocksebner: oh, right, is that still not done?19:38
sebnerLaserJock: *nope*, otherwise I wouldn't ask :)19:38
LaserJocksebner: that was somewhat of a rhetorical question ;-)19:39
sebnerLaserJock: ah ^^, mind sponsoring it?19:39
LaserJockwell, it's not easy19:40
LaserJockI emailed the Debian maintainer a while back about it19:41
LaserJocksebner: I had a couple issues with your debdiff19:41
sebnerLaserJock: yes? O_o19:42
LaserJocksebner: did you check the .desktop file for validity?19:43
LaserJockI'm pretty sure the original Categories= was fine19:43
LaserJockit at least shouldn't have Applications19:43
LaserJocknot sure about GNOME19:43
iulianHey guys, I'm trying to find an archive administrator to have a look at bug 274276 and hopefully sync it.19:44
ubottuLaunchpad bug 274276 in salasaga "Please sync salasaga 0.8.0~alpha4-1 (universe) from Debian unstable (main)." [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/27427619:44
LaserJocksebner: also you say you merge greek and malayalam but there's also diff to svenska19:44
slytheriniulian: archive admins are usually found in #ubuntu-devel19:45
sebnerLaserJock: this maybe was autogenerated. I'll recheck.. also the .desktop file19:45
iulianslytherin: I said this few hours ago in -devel too and it seemed that no one answered.19:47
LaserJockiulian: right, but the bug report is just fine19:48
slytheriniulian: they must be busy. besides it is weekend. :-)19:48
LaserJockthe archive admins are subscribed and the sync is acked19:49
LaserJockso they'll get to it when they can19:49
iulianLaserJock: Well, slangasek told me a couple of days ago that some of the bugs are not going to be closed, IIRC. This is the reason why I'm worrying about.19:53
slangasekI don't think I said they won't be19:55
directhexnote to self: never "just" finish the bottle19:56
slangasekI probably declined to commit to getting them closed before release19:56
* directhex is happy with the shape of his little slice of ubuntu19:56
iulianslangasek: Ahh, I misunderstood then, sorry.19:58
sebnerdirecthex: hmm?19:59
geserzul: Hi, have you some time to sponsor bug #264554 or should I try to find an other core-dev?19:59
ubottuLaunchpad bug 264554 in xen-3.3 "libxen3 and libxen3-dev both include /usr/lib/libblktap.so" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/26455419:59
sebnerahoi geser \o/20:00
geserHi sebner20:00
directhexsebner, which bit? the "monodoc merge happened so mono in intrepid is a complete, well-formed 1.9.1 stack" or the "just because you want to finish the angostura to move onto the santiago, never drink rum from a pint glass" bit?20:00
sebnerdirecthex: ah, I understand :D20:00
directhexsebner, WHICH BIT? >_<20:01
sebnerdirecthex: both, of course ;)20:01
directhexsebner, :o :D 8D20:03
sebnerdirecthex: But I still don't know why I had monodoc 1.9.1-1.deb installed xD20:03
directhexsebner, you use monodoc. perhaps you installed the debian deb, for better more recent docs?20:07
directhexmonodevelop, sorry20:08
sebnerdirecthex: maybe, but I already told you that I *really* can't remember. I think I changed from ubuntu 1.0 to trunk :\20:08
nealmcbI recall that it is possible to upload stuff in a way that automatically gets launchpad to mark associated bugs as "fix-committed" (via the changelog comments?  bzr --fixed?) but I can't find a way that works - am I wrong?20:51
geserI don't know about fix committed bug for "fix released" there is a way20:52
slytherinnealmcb: You need an entry in the changelog of the form LP: #xxxxxx. But please note that this marks the bug fix released.20:52
nealmcbslytherin: thanks - is that only for ubuntu?  or can I set it up so launchpad does that for an independent software project?20:53
NCommandernealmcb, thats only for ubuntu, for bazaar, you can use --fixes when commiting to do pretty much the same thing20:53
slytherinnealmcb: I am not sure how it would work for other projects.20:54
nealmcbI tried that with bzr and it didn't work, and the folks in #launchpad seemed unsure.  hmmm20:54
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slytheringeser: do you have time to sponsor a debdiff for gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad?20:55
nxvlnealmcb: i think if you 'bzr commit -m "foo (LP: #XXXXX)"' it works20:55
nxvlnealmcb: oe if you use ppa's it certainly does20:55
nxvlNg: around?20:56
NCommandernxvl, if you upload to a project PPA with (LP: #XXXXX) in the changelog, it works on assiocated bugs?20:57
nxvlNCommander: AFAIK yes20:58
NCommanderneat feature20:59
nxvlNCommander: the LP bug number is not ubuntu specific20:59
nxvlso if on a project you have #123456, you can be sure that is not in ubuntu or another project20:59
NCommandernxvl, that I know, but I thought the changelog LP: feature was only good for non-PPA packages20:59
NCommanderi.e., that never works backports, we have to manually close bugs there20:59
nxvlNCommander: well, for example with terminator, Ng releases it using the ppa, and has some bugs related to packaging that needs to be fixed21:00
nealmcbnxvl: hmm - what status does it end up with in a ppa - fix-committed?21:00
nxvlNCommander: and those are terminator specific21:00
nxvlnealmcb: released, just as with ubuntu21:00
nxvli can be wrong, but i'm almost sure it works that way21:01
nxvlNCommander: but i don't think it can close bugs reported against ubuntu using a ppa21:01
* NCommander feels like doing some packaging work21:01
NCommanderwhen a bug has multiple tasks, a package uploaded only closes against that task21:03
nxvl...i ... think21:03
nealmcbnxvl: hmm - but a ppa isn't an official ubuntu repository, as described at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status - right?21:03
nxvlnealmcb: i'm not sure what you are trying to accomplish, but you can't change a bug reported against ubuntu using a PPA IIUC21:05
nxvlnealmcb: you can manage project bugs using project's ppa21:05
radixhow does it figure out which task to close based on the PPA? there's no linkage between a project an a PPA as far as I'm aware21:06
nealmcbnxvl: ahh - good - so do you know what needs to be set up for that to happen for a project?21:07
nealmcbor where it is documented....21:08
nxvlnealmcb: not actually sure21:10
nxvlnealmcb: Ng made it, and i just use it21:11
Ngnxvl: ish21:26
nxvlNg: how is manage the LP closing of bugs with bzr/ppa in terminator21:27
nxvlNg: nealmcb is asking for that21:27
NgI don't know of a way to do it for PPAs, but I would love it if there is a way21:28
cody-somervilleYou can't do that currently21:28
cody-somervillebut I've filed a bug request asking for that feature21:29
nxvlNg: really? we don't do that in terminator?21:29
Ngnxvl: I try to put the LP bug numbers in bugfix commits, but it doesn't make anything happen automagically21:29
nxvlmm i thought it did21:30
Ngfor me, it would be nice if upstreams in LP could do that, but also tie a release to a milestone such that creating the release makes all Fix Committed bugs for that milestone be Fix Released21:30
Ngbut I am vaguely working on a launchpadlib script where feeding it a specific bug search URL will mark all the Fix Comitted bugs as Fix Released21:31
nxvlNg: from bzr we can't either?21:31
Ngnxvl: hmm, dunno21:31
nxvlthat's the problems of the weekend, the alcohol affects my brain21:31
NgI think not though21:32
nealmcbNg: so what is --fixed for in bzr - hmmm21:32
nealmcbjust a hook, with nothing on the lp backend?21:33
Ngooh interesting, but my guess is that it just stores some metadata21:33
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nealmcboops - that's "--fixes" on commit command in bzr...21:33
nealmcbwith specific mention of launchpad....21:34
NCommandernealmcb, it works with other bugtrackers; its documented in the documentation how to use --fixes21:34
nealmcbNCommander: which ones does it work with?  and what exactly does it do?  the doc is vague iirc21:35
NCommanderLaunchpad, Bugzilla, Trac, and I *think* one other type of tracker I can't remember21:35
NCommander(maybe RT, but I'm drawing a blank)21:35
* nealmcb re-reads http://doc.bazaar-vcs.org/bzr.0.18/configuration.htm21:36
nealmcboops - google is still finding an old one.   try http://doc.bazaar-vcs.org/bzr.1.3/en/tutorials/using_bazaar_with_launchpad.html21:39
nealmcb... and I still don't understand what is written there....21:41
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