[13:00] <davidm> OK mobile meeting is about to start
[13:01] <lool> #startmeeting
[13:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 07:01. The chair is lool.
[13:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[13:01] <lool> Roll call  \o/
[13:01] <davidm> thanks lool
[13:01] <StevenK> Yay!
[13:01] <lool> #topic roll call
[13:01] <StevenK> Made it, sir!
[13:01]  * cgregan waves
[13:01] <lool> [topic] roll call
[13:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  roll call
[13:01]  * davidm thinks he is alive, but is not sure.
[13:01] <lool> cgregan, StevenK, persia, amitk, davidm, ogra, lool
[13:01]  * lool waves
[13:02]  * ogra waves
[13:02]  * StevenK waves
[13:02]  * davidm Waves
[13:02] <persia>  
[13:02] <lool> looking at last week's actions
[13:03] <lool> none?
[13:03] <lool> is "#
[13:03] <lool> cgregan had an action to compare & contract F-Spot and GThumb (CO) "
[13:03] <lool> still an action?
[13:03] <lool> [topic] cgregan had an action to compare & contract F-Spot and GThumb (CO)
[13:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  cgregan had an action to compare & contract F-Spot and GThumb (CO)
[13:03] <lool> cgregan: woot
[13:03] <cgregan> lool: I have compared
[13:03] <cgregan> Gthumb is a bit less resource hungry
[13:03] <lool> cgregan: Cool, did you write down a summary in a wiki page or email?
[13:04] <lool> otherwise, fine to do it here
[13:04] <cgregan> lool: That I still need to do
[13:04] <lool> cgregan: mpt did a nice empathy/pidgin comparison for the ubuntu desktop's im client
[13:04] <lool> on wiki.ubuntu.com
[13:04] <cgregan> yes
[13:04] <cgregan> I have seen that
[13:04] <persia> I don't think we need that much detail : I just want some sort of photo viewer in the seed.
[13:04] <cgregan> it may be a bit intense for my bandwidth right now
[13:04] <lool> Would be nice to have some much shorter one here as well
[13:05] <cgregan> I will put together an email
[13:05] <lool> I just wanted to mention this review because it's very complete, so can be inspirational for yours
[13:05] <lool> But I don't expect the same level of completeness; he spent a long time on it
[13:05] <cgregan> YEs
[13:05] <StevenK> And we already seeded gthumb
[13:05] <cgregan> :-)
[13:05] <lool> cgregan: So your recommendation is gthumb?
[13:05] <StevenK> Thank $DEITY we agree!
[13:06] <lool> cgregan: Did you try importing photos from a camera or the like?
[13:06] <cgregan> Well....glad I liked it better then! :-)
[13:06] <persia> cgregan, Well we could have changed it if your findings differed
[13:06] <cgregan> lool: I did....but only had one camera
[13:06] <lool> [agreed] prefer gthumb over f-spot
[13:06] <MootBot> AGREED received:  prefer gthumb over f-spot
[13:07] <lool> cgregan: I'd love to have some URL to which I can point people for the choice of photo software, so a wiki page or email to public list is nice; this IRC meeting log could do otherwise
[13:07] <lool> Anything else to discuss on this topic?  moving on?
[13:07] <cgregan> I can put up a wiki.
[13:07] <lool> perfect thanks
[13:07] <lool> [topic] StevenK to write spec(s) to have choice of launchers/extend launcher for theme ability
[13:07] <MootBot> New Topic:  StevenK to write spec(s) to have choice of launchers/extend launcher for theme ability
[13:08] <StevenK> They're both done
[13:08] <lool> StevenK: (muahah)
[13:08] <StevenK> You even have the links to them
[13:08] <lool> I do?
[13:08] <StevenK> I thought I mailed them to you
[13:08] <persia> Which is the correct agenda?  I'm looking at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2008/20081009 but it doesn't seem to match.
[13:08] <lool> you did!
[13:08] <StevenK> Hah!
[13:09] <lool> [link] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/+spec/mid-jaunty-boot-menu
[13:09] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/+spec/mid-jaunty-boot-menu
[13:09] <davidm> persia, I just fixed pages
[13:09] <lool> [link] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/+spec/mid-jaunty-launcher
[13:09] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-mobile/+spec/mid-jaunty-launcher
[13:09] <davidm> will fix them again post this meeting so they don't go a week out of date my bad
[13:09] <lool> Moving to current items for this week
[13:09] <lool> [topic] status of intrepid tasks: merge of ppa, installer, images etc. (davidm)
[13:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  status of intrepid tasks: merge of ppa, installer, images etc. (davidm)
[13:10] <StevenK> I think the only relevant thing on that list is the installer
[13:10] <StevenK> images are done, but currently broken
[13:10] <lool> AFAIK, three major things are installation of MID images and linux-restricted-lpia as well as madwifi/ath5k on Q1U
[13:10] <lool> StevenK: You fixed lrm-lpia or are about to complete?
[13:10] <lool> StevenK: Or will this complete tomorrow?
[13:10] <persia> Which works except that lpia thinks it uses i686 CPUs for some reason, which we're working around.
[13:10] <ogra> the latter is something amitk works on atm
[13:10] <StevenK> Need confirmation, waiting for Soyuz
[13:11] <lool> StevenK: Can we expect them tonight still, or tomorrow?
[13:11] <StevenK> lool: "Dealing with" is the current status
[13:11] <lool> StevenK: Ok; so lpia-lrm in progress
[13:11] <lool> this should fix the images
[13:11] <StevenK> I suspect I'm also fixing the installer, due to fiddling with the seeds
[13:11] <lool> then mid might or might not install, might be using wrong kernel?
[13:11] <lool> or no kenrel?
[13:11] <persia> You're working around the remaining installer bug, which will be fixed properly in ubiquity 1.10.5
[13:12] <StevenK> The former
[13:12] <lool> so I'm aware of grub missing from the images
[13:12] <lool> then 686 being used instead of lpia for kernel flavor (IIUC)
[13:12] <lool> and the mid image failing to build due to lpia-lrm not being installable
[13:12] <persia> lool, No.  lpia uses lpia kernel flavour.  dpkg-architecture thinks it's i686
[13:12] <lool> anything else on the lpia/mid images?
[13:13] <lool> persia: Thinks that the CPU is i686?  that's fine
[13:13] <lool> DEB_HOST_ARCH_CPU=i686 is correct
[13:13] <persia> Is it?
[13:13] <lool> What's the problem you're seeing?
[13:14] <persia> failure of DEB_HOST_ARCH_CPU to meaningfully match DEB_HOST_ARCH
[13:14] <persia> Specifically, for multiple arches to have the same CPU values.
[13:14] <persia> It broke the mapping, which is why we don't have grub today (which we're working around).  it's not worth fixing, but it's certainly confusing.
[13:15] <lool> ah actually it might not be
[13:15] <lool> In fact you don't want to use ARCH_CPU
[13:15] <persia> No?
[13:15] <lool> Ok, what's using ARCH_CPU?
[13:15] <persia> ubiquity uses it to determine which is the correct bootloader
[13:15] <lool> For upstream software, we should check GNU_CPU
[13:16] <persia> No, this is just debian/rules + debian/control
[13:16] <lool> the difference between _ARCH and _ARCH_CPU is that one has the kernel when it's not linux
[13:16] <lool> For instance on kfreebsd-i386 and -amd64, they differ; otherwise they should be the same
[13:16] <persia> Right, which is required for kfreebsd, etc. in Debian.
[13:16] <lool> So I guess you're correct that i686 is the wrong value
[13:16] <lool> (I thought we were discussing the other _CPU which should be i686)
[13:16] <persia> It's at least a confusing value.  Fixing it would be exceedingly painful.
[13:17] <lool> Yeah
[13:17] <lool> I don't see us changing that at this point
[13:17] <lool> So let's go with an _ARCH check?
[13:17] <persia> That's the consensus.
[13:17] <persia> ubiquity has a workaround committed, and the seeds have a workaround committed waiting for the ubiquity workaround upload.
[13:17] <lool> Ok; so this ubiquity issue is understood and pending an upload to workaround it
[13:18] <lool> ogra: what's today's status on ath5k/madwifi?
[13:18] <ogra> amit wanted to start working on it today
[13:18] <ogra> i didnt hear anything back from rtg beyond that he will pull in a LBM package into intrepid-updates
[13:19] <lool> Ok, so someone is working on it
[13:19] <ogra> which doesnt help us for release
[13:19] <ogra> amit offered adding a pci quirk to blacklist the module on Q1
[13:19] <StevenK> The seeds are commited.
[13:19] <lool> ogra: sounds good
[13:19] <ogra> which i think is our best option
[13:19] <StevenK> I'm not sure if I pushed, and I'm in the middle of ./update
[13:19] <lool> ogra: Let's go with this; can I [action] you to push a fix before next week?
[13:19]  * StevenK stops looking for his seed checkout on cocoplum
[13:20] <lool> If the PCI quirk can't be done, we will resort to some blacklist sadly
[13:20] <ogra> so waiting for feedback from amit on the quirk a,d then waiting for rtg for the backported 2.6.28 modules
[13:20] <ogra> sure
[13:20] <ogra> yeah
[13:20] <lool> [action] ogra to make sure a quirk or a blacklist entry is prepared to fix Q1U's wifi
[13:20] <ogra> blecklist would be the most trivial then
[13:20] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ogra to make sure a quirk or a blacklist entry is prepared to fix Q1U's wifi
[13:20] <ogra> *black
[13:21] <lool> persia: Concerning ubiquity, can I assign you to make sure lpia installs (even from a bzr ubiquity)?
[13:21] <lool> s#lpia#lpia/mid
[13:21] <persia> lool, OK.  It installs today, as long as you put grub in filesystem.squashfs before you try.
[13:21] <lool> ogra: Please only consider blacklist as last resort -- as discussed already
[13:21] <ogra> indeed
[13:21] <lool> persia: I want to make sure we land an installable image asap
[13:21] <StevenK> Hm. No push, since it's a bound branch, duh.
[13:22] <lool> persia: so with the grub seed fixes and bzr ubiquity it works from top to bottom?
[13:22] <StevenK> lool: mobile-meta will be uploaded shortly
[13:22] <ogra> just wanted to point out thats a one upload thing
[13:22] <StevenK> lool: *or*
[13:22] <persia> lool, It should.  I'll let you know in ~10 hours.
[13:22] <lool> ogra: Ok, indeed
[13:22] <StevenK> With the grub seed fixes *or* bzr ubiquity it works
[13:22] <lool> persia: Thanks; mind if I action to revisit this next week?
[13:22] <persia> No.
[13:22] <StevenK> Ah
[13:22] <StevenK> Okay
[13:23] <lool> [action] persia to make sure lpia/mid installs with trunk versions of seeds and ubiquty
[13:23] <MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to make sure lpia/mid installs with trunk versions of seeds and ubiquty
[13:23] <lool> StevenK: can I action you for fixing lrm-lpia installability?
[13:23] <persia> Well, I'll actually make sure the dailies install :)
[13:23] <lool> OMG it's action day
[13:23] <persia> Chasing trunk is *hard*
[13:23] <StevenK> lool: You can, but I've likely already done it
[13:24] <lool> [action] StevenK to make sure lpia-lrm reaches archive and is installable
[13:24] <MootBot> ACTION received:  StevenK to make sure lpia-lrm reaches archive and is installable
[13:24] <lool> StevenK: Things are too easy for you
[13:24] <StevenK> Oh, are they?
[13:24] <lool> StevenK: i'll need to action you with harder stuff!
[13:24] <ogra> 120 pushups ?
[13:24] <StevenK> I used to be able to do that :-(
[13:24] <persia> It's a matter of practice
[13:25]  * ogra was never in his life in the three digit area ...
[13:25] <lool> [topic] amitk - kernel issues
[13:25] <MootBot> New Topic:  amitk - kernel issues
[13:25] <ogra> is he here ?
[13:25] <lool> who put that topic?  was it amitk himself?
[13:25] <lool> he isn't around to comment sadly
[13:25] <lool> I poked him to join
[13:25] <ogra> i think that was david
[13:26] <lool> davidm: What were your discussion topics?  linux/linux-lpia merging?
[13:26] <lool> [action] carry over: amitk - kernel issues (davidm)
[13:26] <MootBot> ACTION received:  carry over: amitk - kernel issues (davidm)
[13:26] <lool> [topic] StevenK's status
[13:26] <MootBot> New Topic:  StevenK's status
[13:27] <lool> StevenK: How is it going?
[13:27] <davidm> I added amitk kernel issues in case there were any
[13:27] <lool> (agenda is a bit werid TBH)
[13:27] <StevenK> Dealing with Kourou, which is uploaded, LRM, now seeds
[13:27] <davidm> but kernel team is busy this week
[13:27] <lool> davidm: We'll revisit at end of meeting if he comes up, otherwise next week
[13:27] <davidm> yes
[13:28] <StevenK> Oh, and Soyuz bugs
[13:28] <lool> Eh
[13:28] <lool> Ok; StevenK: any blocker?
[13:28] <StevenK> Sleep
[13:28] <lool> [topic] Installation of language packs and network access at install time (EmmetHikory)
[13:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  Installation of language packs and network access at install time (EmmetHikory)
[13:28] <StevenK> But that is painful to fix
[13:29] <lool> persia: woot
[13:29] <persia> Those were last week.
[13:29] <ogra> StevenK, thats a post release action :)
[13:29] <StevenK> Hah
[13:29] <persia> This week I want to talk about bug #280014.  It's in progress, and ought be sorted tomorrow.
[13:30] <persia> Once that's done, and in the images, I'll want to push a change to casper to put ubuntu-mid installation into --automatic mode, and it should be clean.
[13:30] <lool> persia: sorry, they are lsited in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Meeting/2008/20081009
[13:30] <StevenK> persia: cjwatson disagreed with the change, from what I saw
[13:30] <lool> [topic] installation with blank password
[13:30] <MootBot> New Topic:  installation with blank password
[13:31] <persia> StevenK, The disagreement was with the implementation, as the way I did it broke the UI.  I'm working on an alternate implementation that doesn't do that.
[13:31] <lool> persia: so status is that you made the debconf additions to have a flag to allow this and this needs uploads?
[13:31] <persia> Essentially, I first just ignored blank passwords, but the user then presses next and gets an error.
[13:31] <StevenK> persia: Ah, okay
[13:31] <lool> ok, pending a bug fix
[13:31] <persia> I need to check the preseed values in the ubiquity frontend, and use that to determine whether to allow the user to proceed.
[13:32] <persia> lool, The debconf changes and d-i stuff is complete.  I'm just working on the ubiquity front-ends.
[13:32] <lool> persia: I guess I can also skip "Switching to ISO9660 images instead of USB images" then?
[13:33] <persia> Yeah, last week we determined that we weren't doing that.  I believe I was supposed to start a spec about it, but I didn't start it yet.
[13:33] <davidm> It's gone
[13:33] <lool> thanks
[13:33] <lool> persia: any blocker?
[13:33] <lool> persia: anything else you're working on?
[13:34] <persia> No real blockers.  I'm looking forward to the landing of the install-from-USB fixes underway, but not actively involved.  I've been looking at the lpia desktop alternate CD installer, which still has some issues, but I don't consider that intrepid-critical.
[13:34] <lool> [action] persia to write spec on providing iso images or vm support or how to write mobile images for end users
[13:34] <MootBot> ACTION received:  persia to write spec on providing iso images or vm support or how to write mobile images for end users
[13:35] <lool> [topic] lool status
[13:35] <MootBot> New Topic:  lool status
[13:35] <persia> What?  I'm not going to do that.
[13:35] <ogra> what ?
[13:35] <lool> status is currently here, chairing your meeting
[13:35] <ogra> why is that ?
[13:35] <persia> I'll write release notes if the problem can't be fixed.
[13:35]  * ogra thought we were over the iso stuff
[13:36]  * persia too
[13:36] <lool> persia: "I believe I was supposed to write a spec about it", davidm proposed that I action you on it
[13:36] <ogra> jaunty wont need it because the nstaler will be fixed
[13:36] <lool> I thought we were done as well, but perhaps you wanted to spec something for intrepid
[13:36] <lool> err jaunty
[13:36] <persia> OK.  That makes more sense.  Sure, I'll write a spec for Jaunty.
[13:36] <lool> Ok; so we'll drop the action from wiki or dismiss next week :)
[13:36] <ogra> and your mini iso will fix it for intrepid
[13:36] <StevenK> Seed changes uploaded
[13:36] <lool> ok
[13:37] <lool> back to my status, I've been helping around with misc issues as usual lately; nothing blocking to report
[13:37] <lool> I'm playing with jax10 hardware
[13:37]  * ogra wants ... 
[13:38] <lool> [topic] ogra's /proc/self/status
[13:38] <MootBot> New Topic:  ogra's /proc/self/status
[13:38] <ogra> all fine, chasing some general intepid bugs that also affect mobile
[13:38] <lool> ogra: So, how is it going?
[13:38] <lool> good
[13:38] <lool> ogra: blocked on anything?  anything intrepid critical you'd like to mention?
[13:38] <ogra> i.e. the compiz doesnt allow dpms one
[13:39] <ogra> only that i still have a bunch of .fdi file changes to make for touchscreens
[13:39] <ogra> i found a proper successor for ltsp
[13:39] <lool> eh
[13:39] <ogra> stgraber will take that over from em
[13:39] <ogra> *me
[13:39] <ogra> so i can do ltsp upstream but got the packaging off my back
[13:40] <ogra> i.e. everything that pust duties on me with ltsp is gone
[13:40] <lool> Good news
[13:40] <ogra> yeah
[13:40] <lool> Ok, moving on
[13:40] <ogra> will give me more free time in jaunty
[13:40] <lool> [topic] special guest cgregan's status
[13:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  special guest cgregan's status
[13:40] <cgregan> :-)
[13:40] <lool> cgregan: would you like to mention anything intrepid related or blocking :)
[13:40] <ogra> oh, and i wrote https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageWriting
[13:40] <lool> or anything relevantr eally
[13:40] <lool> [link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageWriting
[13:40] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/Mobile/HowTo/ImageWriting
[13:41] <cgregan> Worked on a new landing page for the cases yesterday
[13:41] <cgregan> Since we now have mobile and MID versions
[13:41] <cgregan> it seemed like a good idea
[13:41]  * ogra needs to go over that one 
[13:41] <ogra> the text is a bit confusing ...
[13:41] <cgregan> Also....reviewing some potential testers for this team
[13:42] <cgregan> ogra: the text on the landing page?
[13:42] <ogra> (note mobile is not centric on netbooks, but on UMPCs)
[13:42] <ogra> i.e. focused on touchscreen use
[13:42] <lool> it's also ok with netbooks :)
[13:42] <cgregan> Mobile or MID?
[13:42] <ogra> right
[13:42] <ogra> mobile
[13:42] <cgregan> then MID is?
[13:42] <lool> MID is MID and UMPC :)
[13:43] <cgregan> hehe
[13:43] <persia> For MIDs.  Currently only the Aigo or the D4, but could be more.
[13:43] <lool> mobile is UMPC and netbooks and MID :)
[13:43] <ogra> you can very well use mobile on netbooks but mobile *is* for UMPCs without keyboards
[13:43] <cgregan> ok....as long as it is not confusing! :-)
[13:43] <lool> and Ubuntu Desktop is desktops laptops mids umpc netbooks
[13:43] <persia> Mobile works *great* with a keyboard.
[13:43] <ogra> sure
[13:43] <lool> Server is servers desktops laptops netbooks umpcs and mids
[13:43] <persia> No.  -desktop doesn't work very well for MIDs (I've tried).
[13:43] <ogra> but the mobile UI was designed with touchscreen in mind
[13:44] <persia> ogra, Sure, but it also works the other way.  Be inclusive :)
[13:44] <cgregan> Ok....so we need to clarify what we are building these for.....and update the wiki
[13:44] <lool> persia: It works better than minimal in my experience
[13:44] <persia> lool, I guess, but there are better options.
[13:44] <ogra> persia, currently the test case says mobile is the version we designed for netbooks
[13:45] <lool> cgregan: So in general you're calling for contributions to the QA test cases?
[13:45] <persia> Hrm.  That's not very inclusive.
[13:45] <lool> I also saw davmor2 work on them
[13:45] <cgregan> lool: Yes....and this clarification
[13:45] <cgregan> I have been pulling UNR cases over to cover mobile....since the former mobile cases are now MID
[13:45] <lool> ogra: Well it's better suited for netbooks than desktop still :-)  but it shouldn't restrict to netbooks
[13:45] <cgregan> But I have a feeling there are inaccuracies
[13:45] <ogra> right
[13:46] <lool> cgregan: I think we need to clarify this for everybody's sake
[13:46] <cgregan> lool: yes
[13:46] <persia> cgregan, If you have some time, I'd be happy to discuss in #ubuntu-mobile after the meeting.
[13:46] <ogra> lool, i had a bunch of complaints from umpcportal users that wanted to see UMPC mentioned ...
[13:46] <lool> The way I see it, everything will work more or less on netbooks, mids, and umpcs, but the experience is really different
[13:47] <ogra> so i like to advertise mobile as designed for touchscreen driven UMPCs but also usable on netbooks atm
[13:47]  * persia points at the clock, and suggests further discussion after the meeting.
[13:47] <cgregan> persia: More calls after this, but perhaps a little later, or in your morning
[13:47] <persia> cgregan, OK.
[13:47]  * lool welcomes persia's pointer to the clock
[13:47] <cgregan> That's it for me
[13:47] <lool> Thanks Chris
[13:47] <lool> It seems on topic to mention a new position at Canonical *cough*
[13:48] <lool> [topic] new QA position at Canonical
[13:48] <MootBot> New Topic:  new QA position at Canonical
[13:48] <davidm> We are looking for someone with a commercial background
[13:48] <cgregan> yes...looking over some candidate info today
[13:48] <lool> For people reading this, there's a job opening in the mobile team at Canonical
[13:48] <davidm> http://webapps.ubuntu.com/employment/canonical_MIDQA/
[13:48] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://webapps.ubuntu.com/employment/canonical_MIDQA/
[13:48] <lool> Ok; that should get the attention of people reading the minutes
[13:48] <lool> Moving to davidm's stauts
[13:48] <davidm> Yep, thanks
[13:49] <lool> [topic] davidm's status
[13:49] <MootBot> New Topic:  davidm's status
[13:49] <davidm> I've been in meetings and paperwork all week
[13:49] <lool> coffeed or not coffeed is the question
[13:49] <ogra> heh
[13:49] <davidm> the QA position was one output
[13:49] <StevenK> Being in paperwork sounds uncomfortable
[13:49] <davidm> the other is a bit of a focus change
[13:50] <davidm> Once we clear the intrepid critical bugs we should have a look at the rest of the intrepid bug list
[13:50] <davidm>  https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/intrepid/+bugs
[13:50] <davidm> And see where we might be able to help a bit.
[13:51] <davidm> So fix intrepid critical bugs and then help the other teams with their intrepid critical bugs :-)
[13:51] <lool> Ok; davidm are you blocked on anything where you could be helped by the team?
[13:51] <lool> and anything else intrepid critical which yuo'd like to mention?
[13:51] <ogra> davidm, mobile is affected by most of the desktop things there anyway
[13:52] <davidm> No, I'm not blocked, and I appreciate your suggestion last week of a rotating secretary within the team
[13:52] <davidm> that will help me a great deal
[13:52] <davidm> thanks for all of the output last week
[13:52] <lool> So I've picked up October and will call for a November secretary again as we near up
[13:52] <davidm> Once we have images again that install I'm happy to help were ever we can.
[13:52] <lool> Any other topic?
[13:53] <davidm> not from me.
[13:53] <lool> We need to fill up the last 8 minutes, I can't let people wander off freely before the end of the hour
[13:53] <pitti> hi
[13:53] <StevenK> You can't?!
[13:53] <StevenK> You monster!
[13:53] <lool> Well you're under my responsability
[13:53] <ogra> heh
[13:53] <lool> What if you're hit by a truck?
[13:53] <persia> Is there anyone else who wants to raise anything?
[13:53] <lool> Ok; thanks everybody for attending
[13:53] <lool> #endmeeting
[13:53] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 07:53.
[13:54] <cgregan> thanks
[13:54]  * lool waves to desktop team
[13:56] <Riddell> hi
[14:00] <pitti> hey everyone
[14:00] <pitti> desktop team ready?
[14:00] <pitti> seb128, Riddell, kwwii, mvo, Keybuk ?
[14:01] <seb128> hey pitti
[14:01] <pitti> (well mvo-ish)
[14:02] <kwwii> pitti: I am here :-)
[14:03] <Riddell> hi pitti
[14:03] <mvo> hello
[14:03] <mvo> I'm still part of the team until the 20th, then I move to foundations :)
[14:03] <pitti> ok, Keybuk might still be recovering
[14:03] <pitti> mvo: oh, good to know
[14:03] <pitti> #startmeeting
[14:04] <MootBot> Meeting started at 08:04. The chair is pitti.
[14:04] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[14:04] <pitti> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-10-09
[14:04] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-10-09
[14:04] <pitti> today's meeting template
[14:04] <pitti> I didn't see any explicit agenda items, did I miss any?
[14:05] <pitti> I saw the langpack and bluez problems from Riddell, and I plan to go through some RC bugs
[14:05] <pitti> tedg: here by chance? some questions involve you, too
[14:05] <kwwii> pitti: I just want to make sure that the gnome-themes stuff gets done as well as reverting ubuntu-sounds
[14:06] <pitti> let's add that to the topic
[14:06] <tedg> pitti: Yes, for a little while.  The conference picks up in an hour, and I have to walk over (no IRC there)
[14:06] <pitti> tedg: great, thanks
[14:06] <pitti> [TOPIC] Outstanding actions from last meeting
[14:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  Outstanding actions from last meeting
[14:06] <pitti> seb128 to propose three options for bug 274146
[14:07] <pitti> that has happened (thanks)
[14:07] <seb128> done
[14:07] <pitti> however, we didn't really get closer to a decision
[14:07] <seb128> extra suggestions followed and discussion
[14:07] <seb128> and the bug stalled since
[14:07] <pitti> or, rather, we seem to have several different personal preferences, but it's a bit unclear who is to decide
[14:08] <seb128> it's rather than we are getting late, some options are not changes you want to land one week before intrepid
[14:08] <pitti> tedg: I left some questions to your latest reply, wrt. going back to hardy with the updated gconf setup, is that actually possible? or is it an one-way thing?
[14:08] <seb128> ie changing user datas would require testing
[14:08] <pitti> seb128: what's your preference, BTW?
[14:09] <tedg> pitti: It should be okay.  As then the panel will drop the new FUSA applet and pick up the old one.  It won't rewrite it's config, we'd only be appending.
[14:09] <seb128> I've to admit I didn't think about the issue for a few days and I've been coming forth and back so not really sure right now
[14:09] <pitti> tedg: oh, I see; but you'd change the logout applet, too?
[14:09] <seb128> I think what mvo suggested (the update-notified hook to update the config)
[14:10] <tedg> pitti: Yes, but that would then be the same.  On Intrepid it would pick up the new logout applet if a user put it there, but on Hardy it would do the old one.
[14:10] <pitti> tedg: hm, that sounds good actually
[14:10] <seb128> what option is that one?
[14:10] <pitti> tedg: on the topic of feasibility, could you actually work on that, so that we can test it soon?
[14:11] <pitti> tedg: it would be triggered by what, an Xsession.d script?
[14:11] <pitti> or autostart .desktop or so? or by the panel itself?
[14:11] <tedg> seb128: The idea of changing the namespace for both the FUSA applet and the logout button.  And then inserting the new applet name into the panel config.
[14:11] <seb128> I don't like the namespace change option
[14:12] <seb128> and would that work?
[14:12] <tedg> pitti: I can work on it, but I'm not getting much hacking time right now -- probably not until the weekend.
[14:12] <seb128> the logout button is a panel object where fusa is an applet
[14:12] <tedg> pitti: The GNOME Summit is more of a hackfest, this is more talking and whiteboarding.
[14:12] <tedg> seb128: Correct, but they both have names.  One would be a patch to GNOME Panel.
[14:12] <pitti> my personal feeling is, if we don't have working code for this by the next meeting, we fall back to the upstream behaviour and document it
[14:12] <seb128> patch to keep forever which makes us incompatible with upstream configs?
[14:13] <seb128> no thanks
[14:13] <pitti> (which is actually my preference)
[14:13] <pitti> we did the decision to have the split dialogs again, so the desktop look&feel changes *anyway*
[14:14] <tedg> Can we do a phone call on this?  I feel like IRC/email/launchpad isn't really working towards getting agreement on where to go.
[14:14] <seb128> right, the split dialog is not an issue, the issue is the green man button which is pretty much useless after upgrade
[14:14] <pitti> seb128: it can log out out...
[14:14] <seb128> right, but it changes the sementic over what it was before
[14:14] <mvo> if we go with the "document" approach, we could as well use a notifier hook for the documentation
[14:14] <kwwii> yeah, and I have now linked the logout button to the little green man pic, so that will be going away graphicaly
[14:14] <seb128> ideally we would have the new fusa or nothing there now
[14:15] <seb128> mvo: what was your little python code thing doing?
[14:15] <pitti> mvo: *nod*, if it explains what to do, good
[14:16] <mvo> the notifier hook can have code attached as well, so we could add a small python script that does the required gconf juggling automatically if the user decides on it
[14:17] <seb128> mvo: what was your juggling exactly?
[14:17] <mvo> seb128: the python code I played with jsut moves the existing fusa applet to the right coerner and removes the logout button from the object list
[14:17] <seb128> mvo: deleting and adding or moving things?
[14:18] <pitti> mvo: could it replace logout with fusa if the user just has logout?
[14:18] <seb128> mvo: if you tested it and it works that would be my favorite option
[14:18] <pitti> mine, too
[14:18] <seb128> ask the question in update-manager after upgrade
[14:18] <pitti> I just don't like fully automatic gconf changing
[14:18] <seb128> pitti: I would not care about people who don't have the standard ubuntu layout, they know how to customize their config
[14:19] <pitti> seb128: it's asked in the desktop, in update-notifier, I think
[14:19] <mvo> it could do a replace too, not sure if that is desirable, my initial "design" was to bail out if anything is unexcpected assuming that the user has customizations
[14:19] <seb128> if fuse and session applets are there ask otherwise do nothing
[14:19] <pitti> seb128: but we added the logout applet earlier than fusa, so it is a standard setup situation IMHO
[14:19] <seb128> +1 from me on mvo's current juggling
[14:19] <pitti> e. g. if the user installed edgy and upgraded since then, he would have never seen fusa
[14:20] <mvo> pitti: thats right
[14:20] <pitti> +1 from me too, if we can extend it to the "just logout applet" case, and we can get it in by next meeting
[14:20] <seb128> pitti: ok, so always delete the session button on upgrade and add fusa in the corner and delete old fusa before doing that if it's used in the config?
[14:20] <mvo> I really shouldn't ask for more work, but I think it can done reasonably simple
[14:21]  * seb128 hugs mvo
[14:21] <pitti> seb128: sounds right
[14:21] <tedg> It works for me.
[14:21] <seb128> ok, agreement, every sign now ;-)
[14:21] <pitti> yay, an agreement!
[14:21] <pitti> w00t
[14:21] <seb128> \o/
[14:21]  * tedg looks for some Boston Tea to send mvo -- apparently they had a tea party here a while back.
[14:21] <pitti> mvo: I think you are the natural victi^Wassignee now?
[14:22] <seb128> everybody hug mvo!
[14:22]  * seb128 hugs mvo
[14:22] <mvo> tedg: ohhhh, that would make me a happy man, but check the "best-before" date, the party was a while ago IIRC ;)
[14:22] <pitti> [ACTION] mvo to upload upgrate notification based panel gconf updating for bug #274146
[14:22] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mvo to upload upgrate notification based panel gconf updating for bug #274146
[14:22]  * pitti hugs mv"hero"o
[14:22] <pitti> mvo: oh, and of course we need u-m to support my new "upgrate" mode, too
[14:23] <pitti> (merge update and upgrade)
[14:23] <mvo> hu?
[14:23] <pitti> ok, I'm glad that we settled this
[14:23] <pitti> [TOPIC] kwwii: revert ubuntu-sounds
[14:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  kwwii: revert ubuntu-sounds
[14:24] <pitti> kwwii: can you please give us a little heads-up?
[14:24] <kwwii> so, I was told to revert the sounds as they are way too close to windows vista sounds (duh! /me does not have windows)
[14:24] <pitti> FWIW, I just noticed the new login sound once, about 20 minutes ago
[14:24] <kwwii> I really like the new sounds but this came down from on high, so there is no discussion, just reverting :-)
[14:24] <pitti> kwwii: ok; can you please prepare a new package and poke me or seb for uploading?
[14:25] <kwwii> pitti: well, all we need to do is to revert to the hardy version
[14:25] <seb128> just raising the issue but think way decisions are taken at the moment will not work correctly
[14:25] <kwwii> seb128: apparently there are quite a few people who think the sounds are too vista-like
[14:25] <pitti> -EPARSE
[14:25] <seb128> those gnome-themes, etc decision are taken nowhere visible, not discussed and come as "you need to do those changes" on random team people now
[14:26] <kwwii> seb128: yeah, the gnome-themes stuff is a bit different than we normaly do things, but we have been talking about that for along time
[14:26] <seb128> pitti: well, basically kwwii ping random people saying "we need to do those changes"
[14:26] <seb128> pitti: changes which are neither discussed before, not documented
[14:27] <kwwii> seb128: the only time I do that is when I have approval or direction from sabdfl
[14:27] <seb128> and not coming through a proper procedure
[14:27] <seb128> kwwii: I understand that but I don't think it's a good way to do things or will scale
[14:27] <seb128> you just ping random people on IRC about changes to do which are not explained, not discussed, etc
[14:28] <kwwii> seb128: I can understand what you are saying, I guess to some extent the artwork has always been a bit chaotic in this regard
[14:28] <pitti> Artwork has always had this kind of "Mark's baby" on it, though
[14:28] <seb128> pitti: the gnome-themes split is not really artwork
[14:28] <seb128> it's delta over debian
[14:28] <kwwii> honestly, the only things I push on people to change are things in which I have an email from Mark telling me to take care of it
[14:28] <seb128> upstream themes we don't ship etc
[14:28] <kwwii> and I only do that if I cannot do it myself
[14:28] <pitti> (next topic)
[14:29] <seb128> pitti: it'll make upstream angry, we will get complain and we have nothing to point about why that has been decided
[14:29] <pitti> seb128: that's for gnome-themes already, or for ubuntu-sounds?
[14:29] <seb128> pitti: gnome-themes in my case
[14:29] <pitti> ok, seems the actual u-s topic is done
[14:29] <seb128> I don't know about ubuntu-sounds
[14:29] <pitti> [TOPIC] Ken: gnome-themes cleanup
[14:29] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ken: gnome-themes cleanup
[14:29] <kwwii> so, this is what seb128 wants to discuss :-)
[14:30] <pitti> kwwii: the themes you propose to remove, are they from upstream, or did we patch them in?
[14:30] <kwwii> pitti: they are from the upstream package
[14:30] <pitti> (Crux, Glider, etc)
[14:30] <pitti> so why should we remove them then?
[14:30] <kwwii> pitti: everything except the high-contrast* themes
[14:30] <pitti> Q1) why remove them in the first place? it's GNOME
[14:30] <kwwii> because they are "ugly" and outdated, basically
[14:31] <seb128> pitti: because somebody think they don't look nice and clutter the themes lists
[14:31] <pitti> Q2) how can we make sure that we can DTRT on upgrades?
[14:31] <kwwii> the only ones that interest anyone is the accessability stuff
[14:31] <pitti> *shrug* de gustibus non disputandum est
[14:31] <seb128> pitti: we discussed the upgrade previous week and that's no issue
[14:31] <mvo> I think seb128 has a point, upstream releations are very important, if that is a change that upsets them, that is not good
[14:31] <kwwii> pitti: the answer to the upgrade issue is to put all the themes we remove into another package and only install that on upgrades
[14:31] <pitti> seb128: if the theme files suddenly disappear, it'll fall back to hi-contrast?
[14:31] <seb128> we need a gnome-themes dummy package depends on nice looking and not ubuntu shipped packages and install only nice looking
[14:32] <seb128> so upgrades still have "not ubuntu shipped"
[14:32] <pitti> kwwii: that sounds like a lot of effort for no visible effect
[14:32] <seb128> and new install have only "nice looking themes"
[14:32] <pitti> do they take so much space on CDs that we need to worry about them?
[14:32] <seb128> no
[14:32] <pitti> Size: 272606
[14:32] <kwwii> pitti: it cleans out the interface and removes cruft
[14:32] <pitti> (hardy)
[14:32] <kwwii> the size issue is not worth talking about :-)
[14:33] <seb128> pitti: it just makes the themes lists be also empty
[14:33] <seb128> almost
[14:33] <pitti> kwwii: apparently there were upstream discussions, if they are abandoned, would upstream remove them?
[14:33] <kwwii> pitti: afaik upstream will not change this package any time soon
[14:33] <seb128> pitti: upstream did some cleaning some cycles ago, crux is used
[14:33] <pitti> if upstream says "we'll remove them in 2.26", I'd be okay with doing the change ahead of time, but why bother otherwise?
[14:34] <seb128> they probably don't agree on the uglyness there
[14:34] <pitti> kwwii: is there actually a point for discussing this, or is that another sabdfl-ism?
[14:34] <kwwii> pitti: mianly because sabdfl told me to
[14:34] <kwwii> pitti: exactly :-)
[14:35] <pitti> hm, but it's a part of GNOME after all
[14:35] <kwwii> sure, and it is not like he won't listen to reason
[14:35] <seb128> it's going to create package delta, angry upstream and users for no win
[14:35] <pitti> so, for the record, I don't agree to the approach, and I don't see why having some non-default themes available is a bad thing
[14:35] <kwwii> but then someone who knows the reasons should discuss it with him
[14:35] <seb128> ok, let's take that out of the meeting
[14:35] <kwwii> ok
[14:35] <tedg> kwwii: Weren't you getting some push back on including the community themes?
[14:36] <kwwii> tedg: we do include the community themes now...not sure what you mean
[14:36] <kwwii> so we do have three new themes
[14:36] <tedg> kwwii: Oh, on the CDs?
[14:36] <kwwii> yes
[14:36] <tedg> And that's generally okay?
[14:36] <pitti> ok, I propose we continue the discussion on u-desktop@ as replies to Ken's mail
[14:36] <pitti> I'll start with it, and CC: Mark
[14:36] <kwwii> pitti: cool, thanks :-)
[14:37] <pitti> [ACTION] pitti and other desktop members to reply on gnome-themes issue on the ML, CC'ing Mark
[14:37] <MootBot> ACTION received:  pitti and other desktop members to reply on gnome-themes issue on the ML, CC'ing Mark
[14:38] <pitti> [TOPIC] Martin: Discuss desktop related intrepid-targeted bugs
[14:38] <MootBot> New Topic:  Martin: Discuss desktop related intrepid-targeted bugs
[14:38] <pitti> bug 261084
[14:38] <pitti> tedg: your PPA package seems to have improved the matters, but not completely fixed them apparently
[14:38] <pitti> tedg: do you have an estimate how common the remaining cases are?
[14:39] <pitti> and should it still be RC after your PPA fix?}
[14:39] <tedg> pitti: No, sorry I hadn't noticed that someone had said that they didn't work.  (I'm behind on mail)
[14:39] <tedg> pitti: I'm trying to check to see if the power button fixes break Xubuntu (no new GNOME Session) before uploading them genericly.
[14:40] <pitti> tedg: ok, thanks; it's the only remaining unclear "Ted"ish bug on my list
[14:40] <pitti> tedg: thanks for making the meeting (in case you have to leave soon)
[14:40] <pitti> tedg: so that bug is still on track? or do you need help?
[14:41] <tedg> pitti: I think that it's generally on track, but I really think it is another "X changed the way they do keys" bugs, and we're kinda working around it by fixing it in GPM.
[14:41] <tedg> pitti: It goes with the X doesn't have a keyboard on boot (drives me crazy) and pommed no longer works.
[14:41]  * tedg is not impressed with the new X
[14:42] <pitti> it causes all kinds of trouble, same with non-workign suspend/brighthness keys, etc., yes
[14:42] <pitti> does anyone feel attached to rarian? we have two bugs which look important (bug 256131 and bug 276878), they don't have an assignee
[14:43] <tedg> I think that the "no mouse or keyboard" on boot think should probably be elevated to a release blocker though.  I don't think most users want to restart X on the command line before logging in.
[14:44] <pitti> ok, seems not; I just fixed my remaining intrepid bug, so I'll have a look at these two
[14:44] <seb128> pitti: I don't think anybody is really looking at it in debian or ubuntu no
[14:45] <pitti> ok, next one is bug 212098
[14:45] <seb128> pitti: ah, the second one is basically a "change GNOME depends on scrollkeeper to rarian-compat", I can do that when uploading GNOME 2.24.1 updates
[14:45] <mvo> maybe we can get help from someone from the plattform^Wfoundations team for rarian? assuming there is someone with spare cycles ...
[14:45] <pitti> seb128: oh, that easy? nice
[14:46] <seb128> I've no clue about how the xml catalogs thing work but if somebody does that would be nice
[14:46] <pitti> seb128: ok, I assigned the second one to you, and I'll look into the first one
[14:46] <seb128> we can ask on #ubuntu-devel
[14:46] <seb128> pitti: ok thanks
[14:46] <pitti> just making sure that all the RC bugs have an assignee
[14:46] <pitti> and a plan
[14:46] <seb128> the file sharing thing, I though mvo was looking to it for 8.04.1 but I guess that got an another ETOOMUCHTODO
[14:47] <pitti> is that actually still an issue?
[14:47] <seb128> that should be easy enough
[14:47] <pitti> I guess it isn't for new installs
[14:47] <pitti> since we put the user into sambashare by default now
[14:47] <pitti> but for upgrades it is, right?
[14:47] <seb128> it is
[14:47] <seb128> samba is not installed by default
[14:47] <pitti> so it's just a matter of a better error message?
[14:47] <pitti> seb128: right, but that part is already handled, no? it presents a "install samba now" button
[14:48] <seb128> you get samba installed when trying to use the feature for the first time
[14:48] <seb128> right
[14:48] <seb128> but after the install you need to restart the session
[14:48] <pitti> right
[14:48] <seb128> because the group membership is not dynamic
[14:48] <pitti> so that just needs to be added to the dialog then?
[14:48] <seb128> so that's still an issue for new installs
[14:48] <pitti> seb128: s/new installs/upgrades/
[14:48] <pitti> well, s/&/existing users/
[14:48] <seb128> either to that dialog or display an another dialog after the installation
[14:49] <kwwii> much like the "restart required" notification
[14:49] <cjwatson> it's a problem for non-first users on new installs too
[14:49] <pitti> coudl the main sharing dialog just say so if samba is already installed, but the process doesn't have the group yet?
[14:49] <seb128> cjwatson: it's a problem for first user too no?
[14:49] <cjwatson> seb128: not on new installs at the moment; the installer creates the sambashare group and adds the user to it
[14:49] <cjwatson> as a grotty workaround
[14:49] <seb128> cjwatson: ah ok, I didn't know about that, I though that was the samba install doing that
[14:49] <cjwatson> I don't like it, I'd rather remove that in favour of something better
[14:50] <cjwatson> samba install does it too
[14:50] <cjwatson> but this is to avoid the "gotta restart the session" thing
[14:50] <pitti> so if we get the "restart your session" message right, we could even remove that again
[14:50] <seb128> right, I though only samba was doing it, I didn't know about the workaround
[14:50] <seb128> pitti: right
[14:50] <seb128> people tend to not read the dialogs, so I think we should better display an another dialog after install
[14:50] <seb128> rather than trying to put too much text in the first one that users will not read
[14:51] <pitti> right, agreed, I just looked at it
[14:51] <pitti> but if you try to enable the check box again, you could get a msgbox saying "you need to restart" [RESTART] [LATER] instead of the "install samba?" question
[14:52] <seb128> that's a corner case but ideally right
[14:52] <seb128> having the "you need to restart your session" after the samba install would already be nice
[14:52] <pitti> well, it's exactly what this bug is about, isn't it?
[14:53] <seb128> the bug is about notifying the user that the feature will not working until next login
[14:53] <seb128> s/not working/not be working
[14:54] <seb128> anyway it should be easy enough, you can assign it to me, I'll have a look
[14:54] <pitti> seb128: do you know someone from the community who could be intersted in that?
[14:54] <seb128> I'll try to see if some of the desktop contributors are wanting to give it a try other I'll look at it myself later
[14:55] <pitti> seb128: ok, thanks; please let me know if you don't find one and don't have time for it, then I'll try to look into it (I'd have to drop other stuff, though)
[14:55] <pitti> Riddell: I didn't see notable RC bugs for KDE, is it just working, or aren't they milestoned?
[14:55] <seb128> pitti: ok
[14:56] <ScottK> pitti: I think Bug #279983 should count
[14:57] <pitti> ScottK: right, that's for Riddell's complaint about bluez 0.4 breaking KDE?
[14:57] <ScottK> That's the one about kdebluetooth not working with the new bluetooth stack.
[14:57] <ScottK> Yes.
[14:57] <pitti> hm, too bad that this didn't come up with Mario's test packages
[14:58] <pitti> marked for Intrepid now
[14:58] <ScottK> I guess leave the autopsy for another discussion.
[14:58] <pitti> ok
[14:58] <pitti> [TOPIC] sponsoring queue
[14:58] <MootBot> New Topic:  sponsoring queue
[14:58] <pitti> http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
[14:58] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/
[14:58] <pitti> has some desktopish stuff
[14:58] <pitti> I won't go over it in detail right now, but a reminder:
[14:58] <ScottK> pitti: I do think we ought to discuss what to do about the problem though.
[14:59] <Riddell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/278634 is the other one, rosetta being frustratingly slow this cycle
[14:59] <pitti> please remember to note your sponsored uploads in the activity report, I didn't see it from anyone
[14:59] <pitti> and have a look at the queue, e. g. there is a gtk patch for an RC bug
[14:59] <seb128> ups
[14:59] <pitti> Riddell: tell me about it, this drives me mad
[15:00] <seb128> pitti: this bug is assigned to ArneGoetje and I've no clue about it
[15:00] <pitti> Riddell: but that's definitively something I'm watching and discussing, too
[15:00] <seb128> pitti: my call would be to "have upstream to comment on it first" but ArneGoetje might have a clue
[15:00] <pitti> seb128: it was just an example, nothing particularly towards you
[15:00] <pitti> seb128: yeah, sounds good
[15:00] <pitti> he should at least be able to test it
[15:01] <pitti> ok, those bugs covered the "release status" topic, too
[15:01] <pitti> we're out of time
[15:01] <pitti> ScottK: does superm1 know about the KDE regression?
[15:01] <ScottK> pitti: He does.
[15:01] <pitti> he worked a lot with the packages recently
[15:01] <ScottK> My impression was he pretty well shrugged.
[15:02] <pitti> hmm
[15:02] <seb128> I don't think anything went especially wrong there
[15:02] <ScottK> The Kubuntu dev who's mostly looked into bluetooth (Tonio) is mostly MIA at present.
[15:02] <seb128> it's just a lack of manpower issue
[15:02] <persia> It's more about needing upstream to do something.  None of the few people hacking the bluetooth stack now understand kdebluetooth
[15:02] <pitti> http://launchpadlibrarian.net/18310466/Traceback.txt looks like an API change
[15:02] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://launchpadlibrarian.net/18310466/Traceback.txt looks like an API change
[15:02] <seb128> we can't block ubuntu in a broken state because nobody tests other desktop variants
[15:02] <ScottK> seb128: There's nothing especially wrong with breaking Kubuntu just before release?
[15:03] <Riddell> persia: it would be better not to do major foundation changes after beta
[15:03] <seb128> nobody broken kubuntu just for the fun of break it
[15:03] <seb128> the work was to have a decent stack for ubuntu intrepid
[15:03] <persia> Riddell, Agreed.  In this case the alternative was bluetooth not working for anyone.
[15:03] <ScottK> Yes, but testing late major upgrades should be comprehensive.
[15:04] <ScottK> persia: It was working for me before and it's not now.
[15:04] <seb128> having ubuntu broken just in case a derivative would break is not a solution eithjer
[15:04] <seb128> well, they did things correctly, used a ppa, had a bug for testing feedback etc
[15:04] <persia> ScottK, Ah.  Nobody said that to any of the bluetooth upgrade discussions I saw.
[15:04] <seb128> they didn't land everything to intrepid directly without testing
[15:04] <Riddell> clearly they did
[15:05] <seb128> Riddell: they did what?
[15:05] <ScottK> seb128: Not without testing, but without sufficient testing.
[15:05] <pitti> hm, I don't even have a org.bluez.Manager on either the system or session bus
[15:05] <seb128> ScottK: somebody in the kubuntu community could have tested
[15:06] <ScottK> seb128: Yes and it was on my TODO.  No one said that it was about to be uploaded.
[15:06] <pitti> anyway, little point in debating blame here now (I'm fine with discussing this further in #u-devel, particularly resolutions)
[15:06] <pitti> is there anything else anyone has for the meeting?
[15:06] <seb128> ScottK: better to upload sooner than later
[15:06] <ScottK> seb128: Then just skip all the testing and upload straight to Intrepid.
[15:07]  * persia notices the complete lack of response to the call for testing on kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
[15:07] <seb128> ScottK: they did test it correctly on ubuntu, I disagree on the lack of testing
[15:07]  * ScottK moves to #ubuntu-devel as pitti asked.
[15:07] <seb128> the manpower is limited and it's not always possible to test all the environment you don't use
[15:08] <pitti> ok, then thanks everyone, let's close the official meeting bit
[15:08] <pitti> #endmeeting
[15:08] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 09:08.
[15:08] <seb128> pitti: thanks
[15:09] <seb128> pitti: the bot is on a weird timezone ;-)
[15:10] <persia> OK.  Who's here for the Java meeting?
[15:10] <persia> slytherin, Koon, robilad, doko ?
[15:10] <persia> Anyone else?
[15:10] <Koon> o/
[15:11] <doko> sorry, will be away in 15min
[15:11] <persia> doko, OK.  Anything you want to announce quickly before you go?
[15:11] <doko> no
[15:12] <persia> OK.
[15:12] <persia> So Meeting Agenda is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/JavaTeam/Meeting
[15:12] <slytherin> I have a bug for which I need discussion with doko
[15:12] <persia> slytherin, Then go now, and we'll do roadmap later, as there's nothing else on the agenda this week.
[15:12] <doko> just one?
[15:13] <slytherin> doko: Specifically one, bug #255149. The fix is small but I wanted to discuss before I submit debdiff.
[15:14] <doko> well, the openoffice.org build now succeeds. what else will break?
[15:14] <slytherin> doko: The problem is that users are not able to use external versions of rhino.
[15:15] <slytherin> where as it can be used with Sun JDK because the symlink is not present there.
[15:18] <doko> right, do you have a fix, e.g. getting it loaded with a class loader when needed?
[15:20] <slytherin> No. But I will first try what is working for others i.e. removing symlink. And then I will also do some more testing to make sure there are no regressions.
[15:21] <persia> I think I'd prefer to keep the symlink as a workaround until a proper class loader can deal with it, as trying to track down Oo.o build issues is *extremely* time consuming.
[15:21] <slytherin> persia: OOo build issues has been fixed already with a workaround. We now need to fix other problems caused by this bug.
[15:22] <doko> so if anybody wants to work on the class loader issue, please go ahead. this maybe is annoying for a developer, but I don't want to "fix" it by removing the symlink before the release
[15:22] <persia> Oh, a different workaround.  I misunderstood then.
[15:22] <doko> slytherin: did you forward the report to icedtea?
[15:23] <slytherin> doko: No. The feedback from users was received a just few days ago.
[15:23] <slytherin> I will do that today.
[15:24] <persia> And we're running against the 15 minute boundary, so on to the RoadMap.
[15:24] <slytherin> sure
[15:25] <persia> robilad isn't here today, so slytherin: you're first.  I think we're just wating on ubuntu-archive for the rest of MoveToUniverse for Intrepid, right?
[15:25] <slytherin> yes. I tried more than once to get attention on #ubuntu-devel, but that hasn't helped.
[15:26] <persia> As long as everything is ACK'd, and waiting in queue, we're in about as good shape as we're likely to get.  Don't worry about it too much.
[15:27] <slytherin> persia: I am worrying because libxstream-java is still in multiverse and its reverse-build-depends have entered in universe.
[15:27] <persia> The relevant bug has that information added as a comment?
[15:28] <slytherin> No.
[15:28] <persia> That's probably the best thing to do then : it will mail the archive admins about it, and maybe raise the priority.
[15:29] <persia> Anything else of note for MoveToUniverse?
[15:29] <doko> ok, I'm away
[15:29] <slytherin> no
[15:29] <persia> Have a good afternoon doko
[15:29] <persia> OK.  Koon: did you get everything you needed registered for the maven spec?
[15:30] <Koon> yes, I think doko accepted to review it, so now it's waiting for review/approval
[15:31] <Koon> I also welcome other team member reviews while there is still time
[15:31] <persia> I'm happy with it, to the extent I understand it.  It seems a lot easier than the other models presented.
[15:32] <persia> It just needs mvn-packaging for some makefile snippets to ease work for the maintainers.
[15:32] <Koon> yes, and a good working example :)
[15:33] <persia> Now, for implementation, I think you needed a bunch of extra hands for packaging.  Do you want to schedule a session at OpenWeek to lead people through packaging something with Ant to help get through the first block of packages?
[15:33] <persia> (Level 0)
[15:34] <Koon> when is it ?
[15:34] <persia> It's usually the first or second week after release, so early November.  I haven't seen an announcement yet.
[15:35] <Koon> I've a team sprint around that time. If I can make it, I will.
[15:35] <Koon> Will confirm whenever we have the OpenWeel announcement
[15:35] <Koon> otherwise I'll do a wikipage explaining how to do it
[15:36] <persia> OK.  If your schedule won't allow it, let's try to get someone else to lead a session, as I think we need three or four packagers to get this in good shape.
[15:39] <Koon> persia: we'll decide what route to take when we have the timing for OpenWeek
[15:39] <persia> Koon, Sounds good.
[15:40] <Koon> I'll check if it's as easy as I suspect it is
[15:40] <persia> Anything else for maven?
[15:40] <Koon> nope
[15:40] <persia> OK.  Any other topics anyone wants to raise?
[15:40] <slytherin> nothing form my side
[15:40] <Koon> nothing here
[15:41] <persia> OK.  Have a good week.
[15:41] <Koon> thanks persia
[15:43] <slytherin> bye.
[21:16] <jjesse> @time sydney
[22:04]  * Eluxzen is away: Away